El Cid: Yay or Nay?

[Vlad The Impala]

I'm about to kick off a brand new campaign with the Spanish, early, vanilla MTW. I've been reading the guide for Spain in the forums, and everything seems pretty clear to me, except for thing:

Should I bribe El Cid at the first turn of the game or not?


The good thing about him (apart from the fact that he is a historical figure and everything) is that he's a five-star general, and expert attacker, but the bad thing is that you'll have to pay about 3500 florins for two units of Jinettes and a bunch of peasants.

The other 'plus' I see is that, since he leads a unit of jinettes, any lost units are easy to replace. The 'minus' that comes with that for me is that I like my generals to be heavy cavalry, so I can let them sit in the back of the army for the beginning of the battle and then charge (and hopefully break) enemy units where it's most needed.

So what do you think? What are your experiences, if any, with 'El'? Should I pay half of the royal treasury to this guy, or is the money better spent somehwere else?

Looking forward to any tips and/or suggestions!
Vlad

[macsen rufus]

I bribed him once, though that may have been playing as Aragonese (many, many campaigns ago now, and my memory dims...) but needless to say he was worth the expense. He rampaged across Iberia and kicked out the Almohads for me, and I just loved the irony of it!

Almost as cool as William Wallace, who I bribed to take Scotland for my English empire :laugh4:

[Tony Furze]

Hello Vlad. Having just played six campaigns as Spain...
El Cid is a strange bird. Once I got him for around 1000,a bargain.This campaign I m on now 3000 was asked for and it rose to 5000+ mid-bribe.So look at your budget. If you can afford him,then go ahead.
Funny thing is when you decide to fight him,he has so few men that hes easy to beat unless you have the bridge battle.He s still easy but you lose more men.

If the Pope gives you a gift of 1000 then you can use that for a bribe.
Tell me how you get on.
All the best,
TF

[Ironside]

On expert he's usually too expensive at the beginning, as he starts out with some loyalty (2 I think), but if he still remains it will drop down to 0 and then you can bribe him cheaply.

So yay if oppertunity arrises.

[tigger_on_vrb]

I always bribe him, but not on the first turn. He does seem to get cheaper after a few turns. Take the other rebel province first, incite uprisings to get prisoner money and bribe him turn 3-4.
I always use him as my desert general as Jinettes are about as heavy cavalry as you want there. Once you have retrained him *and any other jinettes) in a province with a master horse breeder and weapons upgrade (no armour for desert!) then they are an awesome fighting force!

[Peasant Phill]

definitely bribe him (if he's not to expensive). He will be your best general in those important first turns and remain one of the best throughout the game (curtainly if you used him in many battles and he has gathered some great virtues).

On the fact of using him in battle:
You should never underestimate a unit of Jinettes in battle! They may not have the charge of heavy cav but they fight really well. Add to that their speed and those javelins( armour piercing!) and you have a fantastic reserve unit to use in a pinch.

[Vlad The Impala]

Thank you all for your input, it is highly appreciated. :D


You should never underestimate a unit of Jinettes in battle! They may not have the charge of heavy cav but they fight really well. Add to that their speed and those javelins( armour piercing!) and you have a fantastic reserve unit to use in a pinch.
I already noticed that the charge/melee abilities of Jinettes is a lot better than, for example, horse archers, but which units can you safely go toe-to-toe with using Jinettes? Archers, peasants, urban militia I guess, but how about Almohad UM? Or Feudal MAA, or 'tough' ranged units like Longbowmen or Futuwwas?

[cutepuppy]

Thank you all for your input, it is highly appreciated. :D


I already noticed that the charge/melee abilities of Jinettes is a lot better than, for example, horse archers, but which units can you safely go toe-to-toe with using Jinettes? Archers, peasants, urban militia I guess, but how about Almohad UM? Or Feudal MAA, or 'tough' ranged units like Longbowmen or Futuwwas?

jinetes are a perfect AUM counter. The AUM has very low morale, so once they loose some men due to your javelins and you charge them immediately, they almost flee at impact. FMAA have some morale, so i think they can take on jinetes, same for futuwwa and lbm. As been mentioned before, jinetes are best used for capturing routers or to kill (already engaged) heavy infantry and cavalry with their javelins.

[Sensei Warrior]

I always bribe El Cid and use him as my main general for practically ever. He rocks and typically gets better over time.

[Martok]

Definitely bribe the Cid if you can (especially if he costs 3500 or less). He's well worth the money you pay for him. In addition, you get his duchy of Valencia, which is a decent province in its own right.

I also second cutepuppy's assessment of Jinnettes. They're great against AUM's--just wear them down with your javelins, and then charge in for the kill (you might wish to avoid a frontal charge, though, just to be on the safe side).

[Grey_Fox]

AUM have the same morale as FMAA which is 0 at valour 0, 2 and valour 1, etc. You kill them with Jinetes like you kill everyother unit: use javelins then hit them from the flank or rear (or in front if they have taken heavy enough casualties and don't have the time for anything fancy).

[Geezer57]

My experiences with El Cid agree with Tigger's assessment: he's often too expensive (especially on Expert, where you start with less money) on the first turn, but I almost always go for him after a few years have passed. He makes a great starting General - and Jinettes are my favorite light cavalry. With valor (from combat and Master Horse Breeder) and other upgrades, they can easily match (or exceed) Feudal Knights when used properly.

[cutepuppy]

AUM have the same morale as FMAA which is 0 at valour 0, 2 and valour 1, etc.

No, FMAA have 2 morale at valour 0, while AUM have only 0 morale.

[Vlad The Impala]

jinetes are a perfect AUM counter. The AUM has very low morale, so once they loose some men due to your javelins and you charge them immediately, they almost flee at impact. FMAA have some morale, so i think they can take on jinetes, same for futuwwa and lbm. As been mentioned before, jinetes are best used for capturing routers or to kill (already engaged) heavy infantry and cavalry with their javelins.
I see, and thanks again. Another question then! Do you pin the AUM before hitting them with javelins? My guess is that pinning them will allow your jinettes to do a lot more damage, but you'll lose a lot of spearmen since they seem to be AUM's favourite breakfast cereal, but I don't know which option is preferable. o_O

[Mithrandir]

Jinettes are fast, so pinning the enemy down and circling around them to pepper them with javelins is no problem ~:).

I personally do not care much for jinettes, they get shot too easily by archers and don't do well in melee compared to other units of the same cost...

[Grey_Fox]

No, FMAA have 2 morale at valour 0, while AUM have only 0 morale.

Sorry, I gave the wrong numbers. I fired up a custom game. They both have morale 2 at 0 valour.

[Shaun]

Jinettes are some of the best cav that you can train in the early game. They are good at taking out AUM, and thier javelins also help with Royal knights. As Spain, you need to take advantage of Jinettes, as they are an excelent counter to AUM, and AUM is Almohads only heavy inf.

[Martok]

I see, and thanks again. Another question then! Do you pin the AUM before hitting them with javelins? My guess is that pinning them will allow your jinettes to do a lot more damage, but you'll lose a lot of spearmen since they seem to be AUM's favourite breakfast cereal, but I don't know which option is preferable.
Well seeing as you're probably going to lose a lot of spearmen/infantry versus AUM's no matter what, you might as well use them to hold the buggers while the Jinnettes run around and do the actual killing. ~;)


I personally do not care much for jinettes, they get shot too easily by archers and don't do well in melee compared to other units of the same cost...
Blasphemer!! Burn the heretic! ~D

[Tony Furze]

I really like jinettes.The reason why I kept with the Spanish so long.

In the right circumstances they re deadly. And if you press "follow projectiles" when their firing you really see the damage a few javelins (well-aimed) can do to armoured enemy.

And ... if you take on more jinettes on the other side, as with the Cid, leave them on skirmish and attack the enemy jinettes, they do a rather strange and wonderful dance.TF

[Martok]

And ... if you take on more jinettes on the other side, as with the Cid, leave them on skirmish and attack the enemy jinettes, they do a rather strange and wonderful dance.TF
Yeah, it's sort of a medieval version of "bumper cars". It is quite amusing to watch! :laugh4:

[Tony Furze]

And not a single javelin gets thrown! TF (All the best , Martok)

[Martok]

:bow:

Yeah, the Jinnettes will try to dart in and chuck their javelins, but the enemy Jins then gallop off to stay *just* out of range. Then the other side tries to do the same thing--and this will go on the entire battle, all over the map (if you let them). ~:rolleyes: There's a good reason why I don't use Jinnettes against each other, but fortunately it doesn't happen very often!