Rebels on 1.5

[Birka Viking]

Hi I wonder how the rebels work on the patch 1.5...I think its good on 1.2 that rebel towns have fullstacks armys but I think its very anoying that rebel armys comes up everywere on the campaigne map as they do on 1.2...Its spoiles much of the game play when they do that..So how will they work on 1.5??
Sorry for my bad english..lol
Cheers from Birka Viking

[Dooz]

I believe it's been stated that the random spawning of rebels can be manipulated in 1.5 so there definately won't be the amount you see in the current version. It should probably be to the EB teams liking how they set it up, which will make it good to go.

[Cheexsta]

Brigands can now be controlled in 1.5, so can pirates. I've found in 1.5 the rebels train a whole lot more troops than they did in 1.2 as well, so that may be something for the team to consider.

[AngryAngelDD]

hmm, i think the number of rebels spawning aroung the campaign map in 1.2 is pretty good.
it keeps you under pressure.

in my current campaign, which i play right now i can handle any rebels pretty easily.
i have some forts guarding strategic positions at the border with small garrisons in it, so rebel armies marching around are kept out of my territory.

and at some places behind the frontier and over the countryside are greater garrisons who are able to fight any rebels and march to threatend areas quickly, as well as hold invasions.

this is the natural way of living in ancient times. there were a lot of garrisons in the provinces within great empires. and they have to fight a lot to hold the empire together.
aditionally this forces the player to hold some reserves at home, and not to expand with all his free troops.

edit: i have nearly no problems with spawning rebels in my territory. one or two very small stacks once a year or so.
theoretically the city garrisons can deal with them alone.
i play romani campaign on hard. my current area is italy, corsica, sardinia and sicily.


anyway it´s good to hear, that the rebels/pirates are adjustable in 1.5

[Dayve]

Rebels are pathetic in this game they just pop up everywhere... Right next to your very first starting city, your capital, when it is green face happy, rebels pop up even there... It's totally random and pointless so i'm all in favour of completely removing them entirely, except for pirates.

I'll be removing them entirely anyway myself even if EB don't, it's easy to do it.

[AngryAngelDD]

ok it´s certainly random, but this is how "rebellions" work.

these small rebel stacks are not the revolt of spartacus.
count them as locals who are annoyed of your rule.

this happens very often. for example the Samnites in southern italy brought up some revolts even at high times of the roman republic.


i think it´s somehow related to the style of playing, because i never had those annoying rebel popup´s other players complaining about.
they are random and relativly rare.

[Steppe Merc]

We would never remove rebels completly. Rebellions were a major fact of life for powerful countries. For example, the Parthians suffered from constant infighting between the different Clans, all wanting more power over the throne. It would be unrealistic to assume that the only battles that were fought were big glorious ones against other superpowers.

[Sdragon]

After I have a small empire I just ignore the rebels and let them do as they please. I my Greek campaign they are everywhere now, doesn't have much effect on me.

[Geoffrey S]

Only thing I hate are pirates, since there are a lot of them and on Hard/Very Hard campaign game they probably get stat bonuses in autocalc. Can anyone confirm that last suspicion?

[Dayve]

ok it´s certainly random, but this is how "rebellions" work.

these small rebel stacks are not the revolt of spartacus.
count them as locals who are annoyed of your rule.

this happens very often. for example the Samnites in southern italy brought up some revolts even at high times of the roman republic.


i think it´s somehow related to the style of playing, because i never had those annoying rebel popup´s other players complaining about.
they are random and relativly rare.

I agree... Rebels were a major part of running an empire back in those days and even today in third world countries rebels control large clumps of the country and affect the way the government works... Except for places like Somalia where rebels completely run the country altogether...

But rebels in RTW are pointless! They appear in stupid places like i said, one unit rebel stacks blockading your port or road... Posing no threat whatsoever... If they appeared in well thought out uprisings, like when a city revolts, then i'd be absolutely fine with that... In a far reaching corner of your empire where some ambitious person decides he wants to break off and form his own nation, i'd be fine with that, all realistic and well as this happened many times... But when 2 units of leves appear outside a green happy face Rome and block your highways... No... :wall: I'm turning them off.

[Dooz]

But when 2 units of leves appear outside a green happy face Rome and block your highways... No... :wall: I'm turning them off.

I'm pretty sure these are the kind of things that are adjustable in 1.5 so you might not need to turn them off completely. They'll be less frequent and hopefully more logical.

[NightStar]

Rebels often end up as training grounds for my troops and new generals. I just Autocalc, and my troops get some chevrons, rinse and repeat.

I am playing the Romani and managed to train my accensi up to gold chevrons that way...and now they even do some good....

[Trithemius]

Is it possible to link rebellion frequency to government type in some way?

It seems sensible that provinces which have been fully integrated (type I) should be less prone to rebellions and brigandage than other, less-integrated, provinces.

Will 1.5 rebels also do more than endlessly spawn peltasts? I'd like to see them develop some more diverse force mixes if that is at all possible?

[Trithemius]

Rebels often end up as training grounds for my troops and new generals. I just Autocalc, and my troops get some chevrons, rinse and repeat.

I am playing the Romani and managed to train my accensi up to gold chevrons that way...and now they even do some good....

I train up equites and family members - you can get some good results with a couple of cavalry units against even rather tough rebel units (I've had successes against gesaetae!). It's a bit ahistorical I realise, but I like the movement rate of an all-cavalry police force - and I like to keep the size to two-three units, including a family member if I am training one.

[Birka Viking]

I agree... Rebels were a major part of running an empire back in those days and even today in third world countries rebels control large clumps of the country and affect the way the government works... Except for places like Somalia where rebels completely run the country altogether...

But rebels in RTW are pointless! They appear in stupid places like i said, one unit rebel stacks blockading your port or road... Posing no threat whatsoever... If they appeared in well thought out uprisings, like when a city revolts, then i'd be absolutely fine with that... In a far reaching corner of your empire where some ambitious person decides he wants to break off and form his own nation, i'd be fine with that, all realistic and well as this happened many times... But when 2 units of leves appear outside a green happy face Rome and block your highways... No... :wall: I'm turning them off.

I can only agree with u Dayve...How can u turn them off in 1.5??

[Dayve]

I can only agree with u Dayve...How can u turn them off in 1.5??

It's just a case of going into a text file and editing a number... I think the file is called rebels.txt or something along those lines... I'll have a look through now... I've done it before... I don't see it as giving myself an advantage because none of the other factions get any rebels either...

Gah i can't remember how to do it... I'm sure you had to edit a number in the descr_strat folder but it's been so long i just can't remember at all...

Anyone care to enlighten us?

[Bonny]

It's just a case of going into a text file and editing a number... I think the file is called rebels.txt or something along those lines... I'll have a look through now... I've done it before... I don't see it as giving myself an advantage because none of the other factions get any rebels either...

Gah i can't remember how to do it... I'm sure you had to edit a number in the descr_strat folder but it's been so long i just can't remember at all...

Anyone care to enlighten us?


I'm sorry, but afaik you can't turn them off completely, you can only make them appaer less often (or more often) in 1.5.

nikolai1962 made lots of test regarding AI behavior in 1.5, (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63614), there was a post about the rebels (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1130451&postcount=40)and how they affekt ai, too.

[Dayve]

There is a number, a rebel spawn value number or something, and you had to make it higher to make them appear less frequently... The higher you make it the less frequent... I set it to like 30 thousand and never saw a rebel for about 50 turns...

[Birka Viking]

oh..that sounded good man lol

[Slider6977]

In my opinion, as several people have stated here, you can just use rebels to train up your troops. Now this is what I do, and I love it. I find myself destroying even very good armies of opposing factions with a modest army, the dynamite general that I am :2thumbsup: (and as much as I would like to 'help' the ai with the bonuses give at H and VH combat level, I just find that it will only serve to make me lose autocalculated battles that I should easily win).
And even with killing thousands of troops in any given battle, very few chevrons are given. And when I play mostly as Carthage, with my best units only being able to be retrained in certain north african provinces while my armies fight in Italy and Spain and sicily, rebels make it much easier to keep some of my good units 'at home' and still gain experience.

Personally I edited the rebels txt document in order to create more accurate rebel armies. In 250 as Romani, I was getting revolts with velites in them. As Carthage, my own Poeni CITIZEN militia were revolting. Citizens should not be revolting, particularly when it is histroically accurate that there were many revolts throughout Carthaginian territory because of their reliance on mercenary armies. So I have have half stacks of Iberian milities and numidian cavalry spawning in my home provinces, which in my opinion is very accurate and at the same time, fun to deal with.

I also need to point out, that in my view, the Province/City format is really a flawed concept. Everyone is so quick to point out: "Hey I have 200% loyalty in this CITY, why to have revolts in this PROVINCE". Don't know how many of you know this but there were more cities in Italy than Rome and Capua, etc. So hopefully it doesn't hurt you mind to think that these rebels came from a different city, even if they do spawn right outside your loyalty high capital city. Cities aren't too far apart from each other. Not to mention your governor HAS to be in the City, as does your garrison troops in order to keep loyalty for the enitre PROVINCE. Even if I have a full stack army just outside my city walls, an ungarrissoned city with revolt in a moments notice. Does that not seemed flawed?

Personally I much rather enjoyed the Medieval system. You could give province titles to any general, no matter where he was, etc. And while it effected the province when he was not in it, he still did not have to be located IN THE CITY to govern it. I hope in Medieval 2 they will realize this, and allow governors to be located anywhere in the province, only a march away from the city however, just incase there is a revolt there! Although with all the previews I have read, it sounds like the campaign map game with be just as reliant on city location and Castle sieges and that you will still have to capture a city in order to take over an entire province etc.

[Dayve]

Like i say, i wouldn't mind if the uprisings were better worked... Instead of 2 units of leves spawning outside my green happy faced Rome, then 1 unit of velites spawning outside Arretium, then 2 units of Samnite spearmen spawning outside Capua... Why not just have one PROPER uprising every now and again? Like a full stack army made up of simple spearmen (which is all rebels would have anyway, a spear and a wooden shield...) and a few javelin units... Unless this can be implemented and the 2 units of leves armies spawning outside green happy cities then i will be setting the frequency number as high as possible as i just don't want them in at all if they can't get it right.

[Trithemius]

Like i say, i wouldn't mind if the uprisings were better worked... Instead of 2 units of leves spawning outside my green happy faced Rome, then 1 unit of velites spawning outside Arretium, then 2 units of Samnite spearmen spawning outside Capua... Why not just have one PROPER uprising every now and again? Like a full stack army made up of simple spearmen (which is all rebels would have anyway, a spear and a wooden shield...) and a few javelin units... Unless this can be implemented and the 2 units of leves armies spawning outside green happy cities then i will be setting the frequency number as high as possible as i just don't want them in at all if they can't get it right.

Why would rebels been neccessarily poorly equipped? It could be hinterland land-owners who are annoyed with the governer's pro-city policies who are rising up. These people might have fairly well-armed bands of retainers, in addition to relatively poorly equipped bands of impressed farmers.

[Dayve]

I agree again... But surely not all rebels in history were fully armed and armoured/trained professionals?

I've no problem with rebels or full scale city rebellions, as long as they appear in sensible places at sensible times... 2 Units of leves outside Rome is pathetic... But one time i had a half stack rebel army appear north of Arretium a while after i had conquered all of northern Italy, Gallic provinces included... And in this half stack was about 6 units of Gaestae... I thought this was a sensible rebellion... and it gave me a challenge and everythin... It destroyed the best parts of about 2 legions of mine... (I use accurate legions)

[Trithemius]

I agree again... But surely not all rebels in history were fully armed and armoured/trained professionals?

Not all of them, but people with a will and the ability to fight are far more likely to rebel than untrained and totally oppressed farmers.

Also the idea of rebel is pretty subjective; one man's rebel is another mans indepedent-minded patriot! I am sure the Samnites did not see themselves as rebelling, rather they were asserting their proper status. :)


I've no problem with rebels or full scale city rebellions, as long as they appear in sensible places at sensible times... 2 Units of leves outside Rome is pathetic... But one time i had a half stack rebel army appear north of Arretium a while after i had conquered all of northern Italy, Gallic provinces included... And in this half stack was about 6 units of Gaestae... I thought this was a sensible rebellion... and it gave me a challenge and everythin... It destroyed the best parts of about 2 legions of mine... (I use accurate legions)

I agree with this! Far better to see a small core of good troops and six-eight leves or other light troops turning up outside your capital. At least this might give you a worry!

In my Romani games though, I seem to have half-stacks with about three or four gesaetae units, plus other misc Gallic types, in them turning up in and around northern Italy - that's VERY exciting for the three-or-four unit "police detachments". ;)

[Dayve]

But there should come a point where, once you have installed your type one government and converted the place to your culture, rebellions should all but stop in those regions... This would be accurate wouldn't it? If a new generation is born under the rule of such and such a faction and their culture has been inherited and life is stable and whatnot... Wouldn't the hatred and rebellions stop?

Understandably they would never stop if it was the Romans occupying them and their families had been slaughtered when the city was taken or their families had been sold into slavery... Or indeed if they had been sold into slavery... I mean i'd rather rebel than be a slave for the next 25 years of my life... But if you was playing as a nation that controlled its empire with a message of peace and prosperity like some of the eastern factions... I know Parthia (or was it Persia?) treated its conquered peoples as equals, not as slaves, and didn't tyrannise them like the Romans did.

Could this be implemented at all? Some factions more prone to rebellion than others i mean? I know the EB team have tons of shizzat to do already and i'm not asking for anything more, just asking out of curiosity if this could be implemented what with the hardcoded stuff.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I agree again... But surely not all rebels in history were fully armed and armoured/trained professionals? But the "rebels" in RTW are an abstraction to independant states that could not be represented as a faction for lack of faction slots. The kingdom of Pergamon as well as Galatia are rebels in RTW as well as in EB and that does not mean they weren't able to field numerous regular troops. Please do not let RTW's abstraction to get in the way of the true reality of history.

[Dayve]

I know i know... Most Greek cities were rebel in vanilla too which was realistic wasn't it? The Greeks, apart from Makedonia, were just city states at this time weren't they? I know other places like Syracuse and Crete and Rhodes should also be rebel because there is no way to represent their independantness with the RTW hardcodes and crap... But i'm not talking about the cities... I'm talking about those small 2 unit stacks of leves that appear outside of a green happy faced city once in a while... They're totally pointless and add nothing to a campaign except annoyance and irritability. What i'm saying is that rather than tiny stupid stacks of leves and rorari appearing every 1 turn, why can't we have a large rebellion every few years instead that will force us to keep a legion close to our home cities to be sure they are protected from rebels...

[Lusted]

Simple answer: limit of the engine, you can make rebels appear less often, and with more troops but you cannot stop them appearing once a province gets a certain type of government.

[Dayve]

Well then i think they should be made very in-frequent but very powerful once they appear. Powerful threatening rebellions are better than 1 unit of rorari appearing in the middle of one of your roads.

[paullus]

Is it possible to vary the frequency of the appearance of rebels from province to province? That way you could make particularly independence-minded (and militarily capable) provinces considerably more troublesome. And I do hope that EB will make the rebellions less frequent, larger scale occurrences.

[Trithemius]

But there should come a point where, once you have installed your type one government and converted the place to your culture, rebellions should all but stop in those regions... This would be accurate wouldn't it? If a new generation is born under the rule of such and such a faction and their culture has been inherited and life is stable and whatnot... Wouldn't the hatred and rebellions stop?

I believe I suggested that it would be good to link the chance of rebels appearing to the government type, if that was at all possible. I rather doubt that it is though. ;)

[tk-421]

What file controls rebels in 1.5? Does the numerical value have a game wide effect on the frequency of brigands or does it control rebels within a specified territory?

[tk-421]

I think I figured it out. Is it the value next to "chance" in the descr_rebel_factions.txt file?

rebel_type gladiator_uprising
category gladiator_revolt
chance 100
description gladiator_uprising
unit hellenistic infantry pantodapoi
unit hellenistic infantry pantodapoi
unit hellenistic infantry pantodapoi
unit hellenistic infantry pantodapoi
unit eastern missile thanvare payahdag
unit eastern missile thanvare payahdag
unit eastern missile thanvare payahdag
unit eastern missile thanvare payahdag
unit eastern skirmisher cavalry pontic general

rebel_type brigands
category brigands
chance 15
description brigands
unit eastern missile thanvare payahdag merc
unit celtic infantry enoci curoas merc
unit celtic skirmisher cavalry curepos
unit greek cavalry hippeis thessalikoi mercenary
unit hellenistic infantry misthophoroi phalangitai
unit hellenistic infantry thureophoroi mercenary
unit greek skirmisher peltastai mercenary
unit greek cavalry mistophoroi hippeis
unit samnite infantry swordsmen merc
unit greek infantry iphikratous hoplitai
unit celtic infantry curoas
unit germanic infantry frameharjoz
unit germanic cavalry ridoharjoz mercenary
unit germanic infantry gastiz
unit steppe missile cavalry skuda fat aexsdzhytae
unit hellenistic infantry doryphoroi pontikoi merc

rebel_type pirates
category pirates
chance 25
description pirates
unit generic ship sea warriors
unit generic ship small pirate
unit generic ship great pirate

[Dayve]

That'll be it yep. I remember it being something like that when i changed it months and months ago. The higher you set the number, the lower the chance they will appear.