View Full Version : Turkish antiquities offensive to Muslims
Taffy_is_a_Taff
06-14-2006, 14:05
well, just one little bit in this article.
Anyway, I found this very strange.
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/international/news/20060613p2g00m0in034000c.html
LEN and Mouz and co., what's that all about?
I wonder why - the inscription seems approiate for a Dungeon somehow.
In the written order, the Culture Minister told museum officials to scrape away the inscription "Inde deus abest," or "Where God does not exist," carved at the entrance to the dungeon of the Castle of St. Peter in the Aegean resort of Bodrum, Hurriyet, Sabah and Milliyet newspapers reported Tuesday.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
06-14-2006, 15:14
I wonder why - the inscription seems approiate for a Dungeon somehow.
especially considering that the people who carved it believed in the omnipresence of God too...
especially considering that the people who carved it believed in the omnipresence of God too...
Well when one is about to be tortured - it makes one wonder about if God is seeing that torture happening.
Rather strange - considering it doesn't seem to be referencing Islam - but the Dungeon itself.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
06-14-2006, 15:20
Well when one is about to be tortured - it makes one wonder about if God is seeing that torture happening.
Rather strange - considering it doesn't seem to be referencing Islam - but the Dungeon itself.
yep, the complaint seems to be that it offends Muslims because it says something that denies omnipresence of God but the Christian order that carved it would have believed in the omnipresence of God.
The carving, I like to think of it as being a nice "abandon hope" sign for all the prisoners.
yep, the complaint seems to be that it offends Muslims because it says something that denies omnipresence of God but the Christian order that carved it would have believed in the omnipresence of God.
Well if you were a Christian about to be tortured by Muslims - one would think that the ominpresence of God was not present in the situtation.
Still can't see how this insults the concept of Religion and Islam in particlur.
[sarcasm on]Maybe I am not the fundmentalistic Right Wing Christian Conservative that some would like to believe that I am, I must turn myself into the Bush Adminstration for an update on my brainwashing - it seems to be wearing off.[sarcasm off]
The carving, I like to think of it as being a nice "abandon hope" sign for all the prisoners.
Yep my thought also.
Avicenna
06-14-2006, 15:44
They could always remove the inscription and sell it. It's quite a shame that a 500 year old historical artifact, no matter how much value you might think it has, is going to be destroyed. Surely removing it and placing it in a museum won't offend muslims?
If it's 500 years old it would be a crime to remove it. I hope this doesn't happen.
Hurin_Rules
06-14-2006, 16:25
'inde' usually means 'from that time [forward]' or 'thenceforth'. 'Where' seems a rather loose translation to me. The inscription seems to be saying, 'once you cross the threshhold, God does not exist'.
All 500-year old inscriptions have historical value, and none should be destroyed.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
06-14-2006, 16:29
cheers for the better translation, that sounds even better now.
LeftEyeNine
06-14-2006, 17:26
Ok ok, calm down. This is not intended to make another "offensive to Muslims" BS. Remove such books of yours please. It is growing me tired.
In the last election AKP won the elections being the sole governing party. The party is a conservative one, particularly religious (disguised fanatic), rather than national (they are far from being nationalist actually). That prime minister Tayyip Erdoğan has photos kneeling near a sheikh (religious leader of some sect), taken not so long ago.
They have all the ministeries, including Ministry of Culture and Tourism. That decision was made claiming that the words "do not reflect history". I wonder how they decided that -weirdest excuse on the planet ever. We all know that "God does not exist" irritated some spider-minded (we call Islamic fanatics that way) dumb*** and they decided on removing that.
I did get into that dungeon, yes when you imagine yourself blinded and being pushed downstairs, you absolutely feel that "there can't be God there".
But this does not offend me. Noone ever got offended before. That translation plate was always there, and there were no freaks around demonstrating for its removal or that they'd crash and burn down that beauty or something else. AKP is the worst thing happened to Turkey with their blind eyes giving away all incentives to get our ***es into that EU thing. What's more they are overtaking "armchairs" like hell everywhere. The next worst puppet government is that of the Iraqi's. That pretty describes it.
But make sure, they can't do any further -the action is pretty publicized. There is such a great irritation towards the fanatic Islamics lately, especially after that assault to Counil Of State where some freak gunned 5 judges, killling one of them, screaming "We are soldiers of Allah".
You have some more info on that castle lefteyenine? Sounds like an interesting place.
Ironside
06-14-2006, 18:35
Would really want to ask the Culture Minister about what parts of the Koran that have "no historical value". I mean, surely you can remove some words here and there and still maintain the same message. :no:
Never understood those people. What has changed from what your grandparents didn't bother at all with?
Usually you can catch on when something feels stupid by studying the historical note it would leave.
.... After 500 years it was concluded that it lacked historical value and was offensive and thus destroyed.
By a simular note for the Great Pyramids.
.... When they were dismantled by Muhammad 'Ali Pasha and the stones were used to make new river dams in the Nile.
(The chief engineer who wasn't too keen on that project made thorugh calculations that showed that stones from quarries was both cheaper and needed less men, thus stopping the project)
yesdachi
06-14-2006, 19:55
Wait a sec, let me put on my surprised face. I wonder if there is anything non-Muslim that wont offend some Muslims.
LeftEyeNine
06-14-2006, 20:07
You have some more info on that castle lefteyenine? Sounds like an interesting place.
I visited the place three times. Bodrum is maybe the most known place of holiday to tourists. The castle is on a very dominative position located inwards the sea. There are Italian, English, French, German and Greek towers within the castle. The English tower is said to be the only building constructed by the English out of lands of England, the info says. I may be missing some more info on that. The dungeon is said to be used by the knights of St. John, by the way. The castle was bombarded and damaged by a French battleship in WWI, however it was repaired by the Italians.
https://img437.imageshack.us/img437/5138/bodrum7ic.jpg
Papewaio
06-14-2006, 21:52
We all know that "God does not exist" irritated some spider-minded (we call Islamic fanatics that way) dumb*** and they decided on removing that.
Interesting name for fanatics... child molestors are called rock spiders here.
AntiochusIII
06-14-2006, 22:15
Wait a sec, let me put on my surprised face. I wonder if there is anything non-Muslim that wont offend some Muslims.I'm sure LEN's response has already disproved you on that point? After all, hasn't the righteous Right always been crying for the "majority of the Muslim population" to "condemn their fanatics?"
Beautiful castle, by the way. I hope none of the "spider-minded" efforts succeed. Hate to see a historical relic damaged by fanaticism.
Goofball
06-14-2006, 23:10
I have read the article twice now, and nowhere in it did I find any mention of any individual or group of muslims calling for the inscription to be erased because they find it offensive.
That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do. But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
06-15-2006, 02:58
But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.
That's why I called for the help of LEN and co. in finding out what it was all about.
Ironside
06-15-2006, 10:12
I have read the article twice now, and nowhere in it did I find any mention of any individual or group of muslims calling for the inscription to be erased because they find it offensive.
That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do. But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.
Care to explain why someone is bothering of the effort of trying to remove it otherwise?
It's quite a difference between not bothering to preserve it and activly destroying it and I cannot see any rational decision behind it.
doc_bean
06-15-2006, 15:58
That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do.
Compare them the to Christian Right, they're no worse in general...
Goofball
06-15-2006, 16:39
Care to explain why someone is bothering of the effort of trying to remove it otherwise?
With what I could draw from the article, I can't explain it.
And neither can you.
Ironside
06-15-2006, 19:41
With what I could draw from the article, I can't explain it.
And neither can you.
Nope. It simply annoys me when people who's lacking any understanding for historical preservation decides that something is less than useless, with no good reason.
UglyandHasty
06-15-2006, 21:28
Its just history revisionism. Not throwing rock or anything, but it look like in the same wave as denying the Armenians holocaust.
LeftEyeNine
06-15-2006, 21:45
Armenian Holocaust never happened. But this spider minded minister sits there, we can't change it for now. But it is impossible that they will be able to erase that piece of history. They are pretty opposed.
OT: www.tallarmeniantale.com
Leet Eriksson
06-15-2006, 22:01
^ check this out, i fixed the title ~D
rory_20_uk
06-15-2006, 22:14
It appears not everyone agrees that it never happened... Linky (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/) The military tribunal findings make good reading, as do the documents.
Which websote is true? Who knows? History is based on what survives. The writer is usually the victor.
Evidence for and against can eisly be fabricated either at the time or afterwards.
:focus:
~:smoking:
^ check this out, i fixed the title ~D
Brilliant. :)
LeftEyeNine
06-16-2006, 21:50
It appears not everyone agrees that it never happened... Linky (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/) The military tribunal findings make good reading, as do the documents.
Which websote is true? Who knows? History is based on what survives. The writer is usually the victor.
Evidence for and against can eisly be fabricated either at the time or afterwards.
:focus:
~:smoking:
One side's manipulated documents can't be something as serious as history. I have always accused my nation of being lazy asses because of staying away from the topic too much. Now we are paying for it, however we still have the chance to tell the world of the biggest lie ever told -assuming that world would like to listen and accept.
UglyandHasty
06-17-2006, 23:54
Well for me it is history revisionism. And an incidious one. I wont try to make you change your mind, be assure you wont change mine with a crappy web site. Despite the massive evidence to the contrary, the Turkish government continues to deny that these deaths resulted from mass deportation and eradication efforts by the Ottoman State, and therefore claims that they did not amount to genocide. Instead, it maintains that they resulted from self-defense as most Armenians allied with Russia during the war, civil war, disease and famine, with casualties to both sides. I really respect the germans for how they recognize the past, and still continue. Whatever the winnig side, history should remain the winner ..... in a perfect world.
Erasing writings on monument is still a lesser offense to history. But its still revisionism.
Vladimir
06-18-2006, 00:17
This all seems like politics to me; similar to proposing a gay marriage ban amendment to the constitution when you know it won't succeed.
LeftEyeNine
06-18-2006, 02:16
Latest news :
TRT1 -the state's TV channel that generally has to be "modified" everytime a government comes into power- has stopped the broadcasting of the cartoon "Winnie The Pooh" since it has that little pig called Piglet in.
https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1228/piglet6ve.jpg
Who is offended ?? Because of a figure of a innocent cartoon pig ? No way, we haven't gone that insane yet. It's all of spider-mind politics up there. :furious3:
AntiochusIII
06-18-2006, 04:26
https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1228/piglet6ve.jpgGET THAT UGLY THING OFF MY FACE! ARGH! I'M GONNA SUE YOU! YA HEARD ME! SUE YOU!!!!11one!!!1elevent!
~;)
cegorach
06-18-2006, 08:12
Miss Piggy from the Mappet Show was banned too.
Yes the damned pigs are everywhere !
Ironside
06-18-2006, 08:39
Latest news :
TRT1 -the state's TV channel that generally has to be "modified" everytime a government comes into power- has stopped the broadcasting of the cartoon "Winnie The Pooh" since it has that little pig called Piglet in.
Who is offended ?? Because of a figure of a innocent cartoon pig ? No way, we haven't gone that insane yet. It's all of spider-mind politics up there. :furious3:
While I'm aware that you cannot eat pork, what's up with pigs in general? :inquisitive:
Leet Eriksson
06-18-2006, 13:06
nothings up, winnie the pooh is even broadcasted in saudia ~;p oh and looney toons had that porky or whatshisname.
the fundis are apparently becoming just like the people who hate doom(the fps game) becuase it has DEMONS in it.
doc_bean
06-18-2006, 13:43
Who is offended ?? Because of a figure of a innocent cartoon pig ? No way, we haven't gone that insane yet. It's all of spider-mind politics up there. :furious3:
So...they expect us to welcome you lot into the EU when you bring that kind of politicians to the party ??? :help:
the fundis are apparently becoming just like the people who hate doom(the fps game) becuase it has DEMONS in it.
Navaros likes Doom...
rory_20_uk
06-18-2006, 13:47
The Turkish should not be in the EU.
For starters about 90% of the country isn't in Europe.
Unless there are strict border controls, the the EU would gain masses of extremely porous borders. Hardly a good thing.
An ally, yes. but nothing more.
~:smoking:
doc_bean
06-18-2006, 13:52
I don't really have a problem with the Turks in general, if they want to join, but politically the country is too much of a mess to make it feasible imo.
Of course, every EU politician wants his name associated with the 'expansion of Europe outside of its natural borders'. Friggin" glory hounds... :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
LeftEyeNine
06-18-2006, 14:04
Agreed. We shouldn't be in the EU. Who called for that ? Ataturk had refused the offer years ago, so did Bulent Ecevit once. And now that pathetic government pushed us all inside without informing what would be happening during the phase.
We are not European, what they demand for the integration always conflicts with the unity of Turkey. And what's more, I just can not accept being assimilated dogs for the good of my wallet. They did not even consult the society whether we wanted EU or not. It all seems as if Turkish nation is dying for that EU thing.
rory_20_uk
06-18-2006, 14:09
Same here... Same view on much of Europe.
~:smoking:
Leet Eriksson
06-18-2006, 18:30
Navaros likes Doom...
Navaros is to cool to be associated with nutters. ~:smoking:
I mean the types that jumped the moment diablo was announced and called it a demon worshipping game ~;p oh and diablo meant SATAN in latin or something :laugh4:
L'Impresario
06-18-2006, 18:55
Agreed. We shouldn't be in the EU. Who called for that ? Ataturk had refused the offer years ago, so did Bulent Ecevit once. And now that pathetic government pushed us all inside without informing what would be happening during the phase.
Might I ask when did Atatürk refuse the offer ~;)
doc_bean
06-18-2006, 19:06
Navaros is to cool to be associated with nutters. ~:smoking:
He's the most fundamentalist Christian I know, at least. But yes, he isn't the type to go hysterical over things like that.
I mean the types that jumped the moment diablo was announced and called it a demon worshipping game ~;p oh and diablo meant SATAN in latin or something :laugh4:
Diablo means devil in, I think, Spanish, not sure about latin (it's been a long time :embarassed: ) I thought it was something like diabolus.
But since it's an rpg AND contains magic (the devil's tricks !!!) it's by definition evil to some people, it seems... :help:
L'Impresario
06-18-2006, 19:15
The latin word is "diabolus", derived from the greek "diabolos", from the verb "diaballo" (διαβάλλω - accuse, deceive, blame, among other meanings), something which constitutes a direct translation from the hebrew word "satan", meaning "he who deceives/accuses". At least in ancient Greek, a "διάβολος" would be someone who 'd make false statements in court or simply a sycophant.
Its just political parties and groups trying to out-Islam each other to flaunt their Muslim credentials.
Patriarch of Constantinople
06-19-2006, 05:41
"Either we will scrape it away or cover it somehow," the paper quoted museum director Yasar Yildiz as saying. (AP)
Cover? what are they going to do? right on it? "oh yeah that says 'this is a dungeon'"
The story is a bit different than the website reports.
Some people claimed that the script is fake and therefore must be erased. According to that claim, the script was written in 1993 under the orders of the former museum director. The director denied that. The culture ministry started an investigation about the issue. The minister said a few days ago that the script won't be erased even if it proves to be fake.
Papewaio
06-20-2006, 06:45
hebrew word "satan", meaning "he who deceives/accuses". At least in ancient Greek, a "διάβολος" would be someone who 'd make false statements in court or simply a sycophant.
The modern word for this is of course Politician.
LeftEyeNine
06-20-2006, 22:24
Might I ask when did Atatürk refuse the offer ~;)
..Revised the history and found out that I was wrong.
It was the League Of Nations actually. Ataturk was asked whether Turkey would join the League of Nations. He said that they would if they were asked for it. And after shifting of the relevant law of League of Nations calling that countries should apply for membership, League of Nations asked Turkey to join in.
Sorry and thanks L'Impresario. :bow:
L'Impresario
06-20-2006, 22:46
No problem heh
Actually it wasn't so hard to discern this, because, amongst other reasons, the European Union exists only since 1992 and the European Community since 1957.
But anyway, it's a fact that Atatürk was oriented towards the West and Europe .
Mouzafphaerre
06-22-2006, 03:18
.
Sorry for coming in late. Haven't read the thread or heard about the news myself but per the quote in post #2 by Redleg, all I can say is that the culture minister is a fat, idiot bull....er and one of the least suitable for the job. (I know a little about him -in person- from his former acquaintance with my father.)
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