View Full Version : WotS Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II
Ignoramus
07-14-2006, 09:52
Learned Senators, I humbly request to be given command of a force to seize the town of Chalkida from our enemies, Macedon.
From a tactical stand point I would suggest that whilst our other legions hold the invading Macedonian armies the Legion led by Verginius in the North strike into the Macedonian heartlands.
It appears that Verginius faces the least resistance from the maps given us from the latest reports and if he strikes deep and fast into Macedonia he will be able to turn the major offensive of the enemy into a defensive battle.
Understand though that I call for Verginius not to conquer and hold but to destroy and pillage! The Macedonians have shown us that they are the basest of creatures, even perhaps worse than the Gauls, and deserve no honoured treatment from us.
I call for Verginius to press forward and utterly decimate the Macedon war machine at its heart.
I trust that I have read the reports and maps correctly and have not based my ideas on falsehood.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I would like to congratulate our generals (the former Consuls Aemilius and Verginius, as well as Legate Publius Pansa) for their recent excellent performances on the field of battle. I also express my admiration for First Consul Coruncanius in marshalling our armies to reach such favourable decisions. Rome salutes you all! Macedon must surely regret assisting the nefarious Greeks.
A messenger enters the Senate bearing a letter from Tiberius Coruncanius. It reads:
Senators,
I understand you have hearing reports of epic battles, from Attica in the south to Histria in the north, and may be wondering what exactly is going on. I have been very busy in the field and unable to write a detailed report, but I have decided to take some time off to write you a letter. I found a nice vacation spot called Pella. Not sure if you have heard of it, but it has a nice palace and everything. Some guy calling himself the "King of Macedon" seemed to have a bit of a problem with me and my troops using it, but he mysteriously died from a stabbing wound. Also trampling wounds. There are reports that Tribune Numerius Aureolus and his Praetoria unit were in the area at the time of the incident.
But if I could write seriously for a moment, the war against Macedon has been going very well. My advance on Pella with the Consular Army was the main offensive action. On the other hand, the Macedonian offensve from the north has completely stalled due to defensive efforts of Legate Augustus Verginius and II Legion, who has destroyed one army and denied the use of the Valley of Greeks to the rest. On his right, Legate Amulius Coruncanius and the newly created VI Legion, which is not up to full strength, have denied the use of Verginius' pass, and on his left, Marcus Laevinus remained in Scodra, denying the coastal approach.
Still, the total Macedonian forces along the line from Pella to Scorda are estimated at some 5000 strong. There is good news too, however. Already mentioned was the capture of Pella, the Macedonian capital, and the killing of the King of Macedon. The first wave of reinforcements has arrived in Eprius and more are on the way. There is no longer a significant Greek or Macedonian military presence south of the Pella-Scodra line, only garrisons; Legate Publius Pansa has captured Corinth and could well capture everything down there should he not be needed in the north. Out of theater, Legate Lucius Aemilius has destroyed the last Macedonian presence in the north, in Histria, thereby taking himself out of the war for the time being.
That's all I have at the moment. You will, in time, receive a detailed report.
Tiberius Coruncanius.
Acting Consul Tiberius,
Such news gladdens me and re-enforces my faith in the strength of our fighting men and those who lead them.
It is important that we allow Legate Publius Pansa to continue to march through the Macedonian heartlands and thus it falls upon our commanders in the North to hold and destroy the invading Macedon forces…..a task I am certain they can perform.
The cost will be high but I believe Legate Pansa can win this war whilst others ensure his victory by causing the Macedons to look elsewhere.
Mount Suribachi
07-17-2006, 10:39
Excellent work Father, though I am like a caged tiger here. I yearn to spill Greek blood in the name of Jupiter Optimus Maximus!
Dutch_guy
07-17-2006, 12:23
Senators !
It has been a while since my last visit, and I never thought so much could have happened while I was away !
I must say Quintus' death came as quite a shock to me, a great Roman he was, who possibly meant more to the republic than any other Roman before him - not even taking into account the founding fathers of this great empire and city.
It seems that the our once humble empire has grown out to be quite formidable, no surprise there, although the speed did pleasantly surprise me.
Of course I did miss numerous motions, but I'll trust that my family members did a good job on promoting my views as well, thanks for that.
Now I must also congratulate the acting consul Tiberius Coruncanius for his great work in subduing the macedonians, also congratulations to all the other consuls whom I might have missed in my absence !
Reporting from Scodra
Senator Marcus Laevinius
:balloon2:
x-dANGEr
07-17-2006, 13:57
A messenger enters the Senate bearing a letter from Publius Pansa. It reads:
"Senators,
My first couple of battles leading this army have been quite successful. Successful to the point that my men think of battles as training now.. Successful to the point that one of the armies I faced hadn't dared to even step 1 foot into the direction of my men.. Successful to the point that the night guards get a nap every couple of minutes.. And so, I urge you Senators, to let me venture through the Macedonian lands, for by the pass of each day, my men lose experience. And by the pass of each battle, my men lose experience, as every time it looks easier..
Regards.
Publius Pansa."
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/scodra_death.jpg
The Relief of Scodra (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1198714&postcount=20)
Marcus Laevinus was an exceptionally brave man. There was, at one point, an opportunity to abandon Scodra. The garrison was weak, the wall was pathetic, and the Macedonians numerous. Yet the city was not abandoned, but had it been, it would have allowed the Macedonians to march along the coast, around Verginius' left flank straight into Epirus, and probably capture Apollonia. Where would we be then? Surrounded by the enemy and cut off from Italy. I think that tells you enough.
The actions of Marcus Laevinus were truly heroic; though his garrison was small it still took the field and surely without those fighting men and Marcus’s own actions the day would have been lost.
I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as a Heroic Death, rather there are glorious Heroics before a death. Marcus’s actions show this to all Roman citizens.
I trust that it is our turn to strike back again.
GeneralHankerchief
07-19-2006, 19:07
It is at a sad time that I, Marcellus Aemilius, join this august body. I am but a boy, but my studies are teaching me well. Senator Laevinius (my condolences to his family) died doing his duty for Rome. As previously mentioned, he was a brave man who did not flee when the oppurtunity was given to him.
It has also come to my attention that we are currently without a Future Princeps Senatus. While the Senate is not officially in session yet, I would like to lobby for my father, Legate Lucius Aemilius for that position. He has served us well since before I was born and, despite our differences, I know he is the right man for the job.
Mount Suribachi
07-19-2006, 23:00
The death of Marcus Laevinius is but another nail in the coffin of Macedon. Rome shall have its vengeance, and every wound they inflict upon her shall only increase the suffering of those who are the perpetrators!
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-19-2006, 23:03
Honoured fathers,
I'd like to thank my son Marcellus Aemilius for his kind words and bid him welcome to this house. With the excellent tutors he has, I have great hopes for him.
I would also like to express my sympathy and grief to family of Marcus Laevinus, who was such a promising young man. Surely the gods will welcome him, who died a true Roman Hero's death, in the Elysian Fields. I will offer prayers in his honour to Jupiter and Mars this evening. I hope my sons will emulate his shining example of Roman Heroism. I give an open offer of any assistance I can offer to his wife Aurelia and his lovely daughter Fannia.
The Illyrians have attacked Aquileia. Lucius Aemilius and Legion I are in the area and will respond.
I was passing a public orator last evening and caught his speech of praise for our recently departed Senator….one sentence stuck in my mind as very apt.
"And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?"
I could not hope to put my feelings into words any more appropriately than this.
Mount Suribachi
07-20-2006, 09:54
Oh this is treachery of the first order!!!! After all we have do to help Illyria, this is how they repay us???!!!???
I know the senate is not in session for us to propose motions, but I urge you father to put the towns and cities of Illyria to the sword!! Kill their men and sell their women and children into slavery! Let the world know the price to be paid by those that treat us with dishonour!
SwordsMaster
07-20-2006, 11:05
*Gaius Rutillius enters the room in a hurry. He is wearing a light leather cuirass and a dusty cloak, and looks tired and angry. Very angry.*
Senators! I departed the city I was entrusted with as soon as the news reached my ears. I left last night to be here with the first lights of the morning.
I urge you to act, Senators! I believe we can support another legion. No more than this will be needed of us to put righteous fear in the hearts of those backstabbing peoples.
I fully support their extermination, for such treacherous species have no place among men. I only ask of you this, senators, let me be one of the men that will raze to the ground the first city we take from them.
This Senate may be surprised that allies of the Gauls would commit such an atrocity, but I am not. There are no good barbarians, there are simply barbarians who are dangerous now and barbarians who will be dangerous in the future. We should destroy them all.
Dutch_guy
07-20-2006, 13:55
This attack is one I didn't expect, but then again they are - as senator Verginiussaid - mere barbarians.
I agree with all who encourage the destruction of these traitorous barbarians, Rome must let the world know how we treat those who betray our empire, greatest of all.
We must act as soon as possible and destroy them utterly, the faster we do this, the faster we can put those troops up against the Macedonians again...
:balloon2:
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS: It seems that we have no shortage of enemies. If we are in need of generals, I stand ready to serve against any or all of them!
Long have I pondered on the fate of Illyria. They were useful potential allies against the Greeks and Macedonians. But geography dictates that sooner or later, they must fall under the influence of our rising Republic. It seems they have chosen sooner rather than later.
GeneralHankerchief
07-21-2006, 05:04
Those treacherous Illyrians. Those stinking, treacherous, barbarians! Roman blood has been spilt in order to save their pathetic cities. Vibius Pleminius gave his life for their cause. And this is how they repay us!
Senators, death is too kind for these stinking dogs. We should enslave their capital city and turn it into a troop center for us!
- What was that? Not now, Archimedes, I'm at the Senate! No- no more arguments! I don't care what you have to say about this- shut UP, you Greek fool!
Excuse me Senators, I must be off...
*Marcellus Aemilius storms out of the Senate building, wishing damnation upon all teachers*
Ignoramus
07-21-2006, 07:30
Senators, this treacherous behaviour of Illyria is disgraceful! I strongly urge that no mercy be shown to these barbarians!
I, Secundus Salvidienus, ask to be given control of a small force to attack an enemy of the Roman people.
I call for a small Legion to be raised in order to utterly decimate the Illyrians and occupation of there remaining lands.
Dutch_guy
07-22-2006, 12:56
Are we able to raise such a legion without putting too much a strain on our economy ?
With regard to that question, I'd like to know how much our war chest currently contains, if the current consul would be kind enough to let the senate know.
:balloon2:
Avicenna
07-22-2006, 13:37
Senators of Rome, I apologise for my recent absence, which was due to investigating certain shady suspects in far-away lands... but let us return to important matters.
I must say, I am not shocked at the behaviour of the Macedonians or the Illyrians. After all, the Macedonians show their worth when they failed to attack us when we took land from the Achaeans! The Illyrians, former 'allies', were simply begging for money in their time of need. This time is over, and being barbarian scum and oppurtunists, see it as the perfect time to strike when our Legions are busy contending with Macedonian and Achaean armies.
Now, in light of our current shortage of generals, I believe that in increase in our Legion sizes is a rational path to undertake, so that we may not have as much difficulty in defending Roman ways and glory in the world.
I cede the floor.
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-26-2006, 00:05
Honoured fathers,
Under instruction of our first consul Tiberius Coruncanius, the Legio I Italia Victrix is continuing its pogrom against the Illyrians. With the recent capture of the second Illyrian city, the walled capital of Segestica, and the defeat of their king, Boria the Bloody-Handed, the Illyrians are down to one unwalled coastal settlement, Salona, and about a legion worth of troops. They even begged me for a ceasefire, but I leave the diplomacy in the hands of our supreme commander. Once that settlement is taken we will have our west flank secured in Greece and we will be in a better position to reinforce our troops by ship.
The gods have seen it fit to punish the deplorable behaviour of the Illyrian savages by the death of their king ! Truly the gods smile down upon our nation !
Lucius Aemilius, Legate of the Legio I Italia Victrix
Winter 261 BC, Segestica
Senators, Rome has been disgraced! Oh, this is a dark day. The darkest day, ever! Oh, if only I had seen it coming. Oh, why did the gods allow this to happen!?
I should offer an explanation. Over at Massilia ford, the Gauls made an attack with an army about 1300 strong. Publius Laevinus, Legatus Legionis, Princeps Senatus, commander of a Roman Legion, commander of 721 brave Romans and allies, fighting barbarians, defending the most defensible position ever concieved, lost, and fled the field of battle to Massilia!
But that, Senators, is not the worst thing you will hear today. Prepare yourselves to hear the next thing! This:
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y208/flydude18/eagle.jpg
I have but one season left in office, it will be up to the next Consul, and up to the Senate, to recover our eagle.
GeneralHankerchief
07-29-2006, 01:44
Has Laevinius lost his mind? He should be stripped of his titles of Princeps Senatus as well as Legate and be sent off to govern Sardinia! This man is a disgrace to all good Romans!
Senators, I still have a year of *sigh* schooling, and only then I will be a Tribune but I have been taught by the best! Let me lead the expedition to recover our glorious Eagle!
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-29-2006, 01:58
The temple of Janus shall not be closed untill Roman honour is avenged !
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The barbarians have broken through the Massila ford. Do they now besiege Massila? Who is the nearest member of the Lower House able to ride to meet them? Publius Laevinus is evidently unsuited for battle and henceforth must be regarded as a member of the Upper House. Perhaps Legate Aemilius can be diverted from the war in Illyria?
I know the war against Macedon is foremost in the First Consul's mind, but we have large garrisons in Italy - now would seem to be the time to use them. Which legion was guarding the ford? We must recover the Eagle from Gergovia at the first opportunity! This dishonour must be swiftly excised.
Fellow Romans! I, Cornelius Saturninus stand before you, a true Roman, taken in by Quintus Naevius because of my past and my obviously bright future. I have served as a Tribune for over 4 years in the glorious Roman army and now the time has come to take up the sword and shield once more. I shall regain our eagle and restore our pride, there is no other man for the job. Marcus Aemilius is but a child, still in school! Learning the things I've experienced first hand in my time in the military. A lost eagle is no matter for an inexperienced son of Rome, oh no it is much too important to risk in such a way. With the permission of the Senate, I shall travel to Gergovia with an assigned Legion and take back what should never have been lost by the careless Publius Laevinus, and punish the filthy barbarians who dare test the might of Rome. Do not make another mistake in sending the wrong person, I beseech you. Cornelius Saturninus awaits your judgement, as does the fate of Rome.
GeneralHankerchief
07-29-2006, 04:27
Well said Senator Saturninus, but please keep in mind that the Aemilius family also lost honor. By the gods, you can't even get my first name right! My mad brother, Manius was with Laevinius that fateful day. When it was clear that Laevinius was faltering, he could have taken up command, but continued to hide from the world. As a result my house is disgraced.
Senators, my family is dishonored, along with Laevinius' former legion. A perfect fit, no? Besides, I am ready. I must fight sometime, and Verginius will agree that barbarians are excellent practice. Send me to reclaim the lost Eagle.
OOC: I got the name from the FAQ thread, silly me didn't see it in your sig.
Young Marcus, looking for respect when respect is not yet due. When you are finished with your schooling and are a bit older you may be called by your full name, Marcellus, but by the gods you are still young and I as an elder may refer to you as Marcus if I see fit. I sympathize with your mad family and lost honor, but the Republic cannot make the same mistake twice in sending you to correct the wrongs of your bretheren. Madness runs through your blood, wether you know it yet or not. The glory of Rome comes before your personal honor and it is your duty as a Roman to realize it, and mine to defend it. It is clear to me what must be done. I trust the good senators of this assembly will make the right choice. I suggest young Marcus to come along as Tribune upon his graduation. Perhaps he will learn a thing or two and will have the opportunity to prove himself and restore his family's honor.
Dutch_guy
07-29-2006, 12:41
Senators,
I would not have thought to ever see the day a standard was lost in battle, and especially not facing the Gauls. Mere barbarians !
Publius Laevinus has disgraced his family and his people, and we all know that the people do not take a loss lightly!
I for one, do not wish for Publius Laevinus to lead another battle, as another loss could very well be devastating - as we need every legion we currently have !
Naturally Gergovia must be our next target, getting our standard back is - I hope - our top priority now.
Further more I propose we exterminate Gergovia, as a sign to Gaul - and the rest of the world - that taking one of our eagles is not taken lightly !
Your servant, Flavius Pacuvius.
:balloon2:
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-29-2006, 13:19
Cornelius Saturninus,
I am greatly upset by your words. What brings it into your mind to claim about my noble family that Madness runs through your blood ? You have nerve to slander the proud Aemilia like this. I know my son Manius Aemilius is rumoured to be a bit strange and we don't see eye to eye, but he has been doing his duty for Rome as a dutiful son.
I demand an apology, or my family will not forget this insult to our forefathers.
While I applaud your sentiments recovering the lost eagle, I see no need for you to dismiss the same noble sentiments in others, like Marcellus Aemilius.
I am worried about the situation at Massilia, and the fate of Publius Laevinus and my son. I would like to come to their aid, but the Legio I Italia Victrix is perhaps not the closest force and likely needed more on our eastern front. If the first consul can spare us, I volunteer to go to their aid, as I would be honoured to extinguish this disgrace on Roman honour and I still worry about the Iberians.
I feel sorry for Publius Laevinius in his disgrace. He has won several great victories against the Gauls in the past, but the Gods evidently saw it fit to punish him for some unknown folly. I would like to see one of his familiy, like Decius Laevinus, take to the field to restore his familiy's honour.
Nevertheless, I say that Publius Laevinius must relinquish the title of Future Princeps Senatus, as it would not be seemly to have this noble body led by one so obviously disgraced. It should be handed to the one highest in rank and seniority in this house.
I also second Flavius Pacuvius's suggestion that Gergovia should be razed to the ground and its population exterminated. The Gauls need an example to show that they belong on their knees before Romans.
An Eagle? AN EAGLE?!
I have spent over half my life advocating against the Gauls, campaigning against the Gauls, and bathing my hands in Gallic blood. During this time they achieved not a single victory over Roman arms and we brought them the gifts of fire and sword. Yet I depart the Gallic frontier for a mere five years and they have broken our border, defeated a Legion and taken an Eagle! I swear I will not rest until all Gallic men, women and children are dead and rotting!
I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath.
Dutch_guy
07-29-2006, 16:08
I, Flavius Pacuvius, would glady assist Augustus Verginius on the field of battle against the Gauls.
I could use the experience.
:balloon2:
GeneralHankerchief
07-29-2006, 17:19
Madness runs through your blood, wether you know it yet or not.
How dare you, sir? You besmirch my family's honor and have the gall to say that I am young and without manners? It is clear that you were not taught properly, Saturninus. I will not serve as Tribune with you for this insult, and I echo my father's sentiments (for once) that an apology must be given.
That said, Senator Verginius speaks wisdom. He is more fit to command any legion that fights Gauls than any of us, for his hatred of them inspires the troops around him. It would be an honor to serve as Tribune under him.
To the Aemilius family, I offer my apologies. You must understand that I have not lived a privelaged life around the academies and scriptoriums. I have lived mine on the campaign trail and perhaps have not accumulated the best of manners or restraint of tongue. I was enraged by the loss of the eagle and a member of your family had a hand in it, that is true. The reason I made my comment was because I believe madness must be something that runs in the family. Do believe me good senators of Rome, I had only the best intentions of our great republic in mind and did not want another mishap. I leave it to the senators to decide my fate.
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-30-2006, 11:00
Honour is satisfied ~;)
My condolences Lucius Aemilius on the loss of Marcus. As I feared, his inexperience lead to his demise. He truly fought and lead bravely, may the Gods recieve him with honor. I wish you luck in your defense of Segestica against the petty Thracians.
*OOC edit*
Just took a look at the save-game and realize there is a Marcellus Aemilius in Rome, and if that's GeneralHankerchief, then the FAQ should be updated becuase it says he's Marcus Aemilius, who is now dead. I had those two confused.
SENATE SPEAKER: Now that we have received the First Consul's final report, I declare this session of Senate open.
There will be a three day period of debate for candidates for First Consul to come forward and for motions to be proposed. This will expire on Wednesday at 6pm UK time. There will then be a 24 period for voting.
I remind Senators that candidates for First Consul should post manifestoes in this thread. It would be desirable if candidates could do this early this session, so that the manifestoes can be debated and legislation can be made with an eye to the likely intentions of the executive.
As for motions, please state explicitly "I propose motion 9.1 etc" or "I second motion 9.1". Recall, a motion needs two seconders to be put to a vote. Where there are contradictions between motions, the earlier motion (including motions proposed earlier this session) takes precedence unless the later motion says "This motion A [i]invalidates[/b] motion A".
Dutch_guy
07-30-2006, 15:40
This has been put forward by myself and by others already, but it should be a number one priority for the next first consul
Motion 9.1
I propose that the next first consul immediatly sends forth an army to retrieve our stolen eagle, in Gergovia. Which is then extermintated following the conquest of that city. Who leads the army to Gergovia is up to the consul
yours, Flavius Pacuvius
:balloon2:
I second Motion 9.1. This is indeed the first issue to be dealt with.
Tricky Lady
07-30-2006, 15:54
It is evident that retrieving the lost Eagle should be the highest priority for the next Consul.
I second motion 9.1 too.
Who is closest to Massilia to replace Publius Laevinius as fast as possible?
GeneralHankerchief
07-30-2006, 16:06
All of you do realize that if the Iberians stay put we will be at war with yet another large faction, not to mention the fact that we will be fighting a ford battle trying to cross it. While I agree that Gergovia must be razed it might be better if we hesitated. Perhaps enough time to reinforce the legion and get an experienced commander at the helm? The Greek Theater is wrapping up. We can recall a commander closer to home now.
Motion 9.2: Before making any attempt to recover the Eagle at Gergovia, Legio III (Laevinius' former legion) is to be reinforced to full strength and commanded by Augustus Verginius, with Marcellus Aemilius as Tribune.
Also, in terms of the Consul Elections, Legate Publius Pansa has proved himself many times over in the Greek Theater. I would like to see him run.
x-dANGEr
07-30-2006, 16:12
Publius Pansa steps into the Senate floor after a long journey of bloodshed; to non Romans of course.
"People, reason yourselves. Publius Laevinus hadn't yet his part of the say. I suspect those filthy Germans had a hand in it.. And so, I ask that an investigation is started, to figure out the shades of that dark hour of the battle."
Now, wait a minute. Why should Gergovia be exterminated. What part did the civilians have in the loss of the eagle? The loss of the eagle was caused in part by the incompetence on our own side, and in part by luck on the side of the gallic army, but the average gallic peasant had little to do with it. If you want blood, then I suggest you demand the head of Drustan of Decetia, who was the gallic commander at the battle, and who took the eagle to Gergovia instead of returning it to us. I propose, then, the following:
Motion 9.3: This house charges the Consul with the task of recovering the eagle as quickly as possible, and with the task of killing Drustan of Decetia by any means available. However, this motion forbids the extermination of any civilian population, including Gergovia, and therefore invalidates Motion 9.1.
I'm sure that whoever is elected Consul will do his best to recover the eagle, although we may argue about the specifics of it. What I am mainly worried about is how the next Consul will address all the threats to the Republic.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The First Consul speaks wisely - exterminating a city will not excise the shame that lies on our side.
I also think the First Consul is right to focus on the threats to the republic. In our angst over the loss of the eagle, we must not forget the present danger posed by the Thracians declaring war, besieging one of our cities and marching large armies to attack us. With most of our armies in Greece and Macedon, we are not well placed to defend against the Thracian invasion and to rescue the legion.
I ask the Senate to look at the situation with cool heads. Recall that presently, the Iberians guard the first Massilia ford. To rescue the eagle by land will likely require us to attack them. The First Consul has said that the Iberian presence at the ford is a provocation and I concurr. But I ask you, should we not resist the provocation at this time? The Thracians have just opened a new war with us - is now the right time to start a war with the Iberians?
Recall, it was Publius Laevinus who identified Massila as the most defensible western border of our lands. Whatever shame the man has brought to the Senate does not negate this fine insight. We held back First Consul Verginius from eliminating Gaul in order to maintain a buffer between us and Iberia, so as to avoid a premature war with that power. Should we now forget the ford and the idea of a buffer state in our haste to recover the eagle? Iberia can wait - the Thracians will not.
It is true, we must recover the eagle. But I am reluctant to see the task embroiling us in a seventh simultaneous war. Fortunately, there is a solution to this conundrum. The First Consul has endowed us with a large fleet of ships. If the Iberians continue to block the first Massila ford, I propose that we use our fleet to circumvent their force and rescue the eagle without having to engage their armies.
Therefore, I propose:
Motion 9.4: This house instructs the First Consul to avoid attacking Iberia in the quest to rescue the eagle. If necessary, the fleet is to be used to bypass any obstructing Iberian army. If avoiding war with Iberia delays the return of the eagle, this motion takes precedence over motions 9.1 and 9.3.
It is true, we would be within our rights to attack Iberia. If, as I believe, the Massila ford lies in our lands, the First Consul is authorised by a constitutional ammendment to declare war on Iberia for occupying it. My motion does not seek to remove that right. However, it does express the view that exercising that right at the present moment would not be prudent - no matter how deeply felt the dishonour of losing an eagle.
Avicenna
07-31-2006, 03:04
I second motions 9.2 and 9.4.
In light of the war with the Thracians, I believe that the Republic is in urgent need of reinforcements, as these wars will without doubt be both long, and bloody.
I propose:
Motion #9.5: All Roman troops (Hastasi, Principes, Triarii, Velites, Funditores and Equites) be relieved of auxilia garrison duty and be redeployed with under-strength Legions (such as Legio VI)
Motion #9.6: A new Legion, Legio VII be raised and be deployed immediately against the Thracians.
If motion #9.6 is passed, I would recommend any one of Valerius Paullus, Gaius Rutilius and Luca Mamilius to be promoted to the rank of Legatus Legionis of Legio VII. I would also like to put myself forward for military service as a Tribune, or even as a Legate, should the senate see me fit for duty.
[Senate Librarian] The Library is now fully updated with all available information about the Republic and the world as a whole. Please let me know if you see any errors or if you need to see any information that is not currently on display.
[Augustus Verginius]
I must congratulate Senator Coruncanius on the incredible successes that have been achieved under his stewardship. I would never have believed that we could achieve such great successes against the Greeks and Macedonians. In addition, I am amazed that this term, which was defined more than any other by war, should also be the most prosperous the Republic has yet seen. Despite massive levies, our income has grown and our treasury is nearly overflowing! Few men can ever be said to have achieved as much as Senator Coruncanius in such a short time. Accordingly, I propose the following motion:
Motion #9.7: Tiberius Coruncanius will be granted a triumph in recognition of the great achievements the Republic has made during his term, both in war and economics.
That said, it is only the overwhelming respect that I have for the Senator that prevents me from saying vile things about his sense of propriety. I am... greatly disturbed... by his desire to protect Gallic children. When I was ambushed by the Gauls under Lucco, Roman arms put many Gallic men to the sword. At that time there were many Gallic male children of but 5 or 6 years in their territories. Today these boys are 18 or 19 and many of them undoubtedly aided in the slaughter of Legio III.
There is no such thing as a Gallic innocent. They are all warriors; they are all monsters. Any child we spare is a future sword-arm that will be raised against Rome. Any man who doubts this is a fool. There is no peace with Gaul, there never will be. We must exterminate them or they will exterminate us. This very body stayed my hand nearly 10 years ago when I wished to finish them all. Had I done so, many a soldier in Legio III would still be alive today. If we stay our hand once more, we will once again suffer the consequences. We must exterminate them once and for all! If this Senate still quakes in fear of the Iberians and thinks a 'buffer state' will save their sons from war, then return Gergovia to the Gauls... but only after it has been made an example for all the world to see.
As for those Senators who say that recovering the Eagle is of less importance than other things and who fear that it will result in war with the Iberians... you men are cowards and do not deserve to sit in this body. The Eagle is the very symbol of Roman pride. It is the eternal representation of the superiority of the people of Romulus and to allow even one to sit in barbarian hands... GALLIC HANDS... for even a day longer than it could, is high treason! This is an Eagle of Rome! Its recovery must be the foremost objective of all Roman citizens and all who attempt to keep it from us must feel our wrath, whether they be 'peaceful' or not.
Motions 9.3 and 9.4 are insulting to the honor of the Republic. A vote for them is a vote against Jupiter himself.
[Cornelius Saturninus]
Hear hear, Senator Verginius! Spoken like a true Roman! Someone must take a stand against these weaklings in our own senate, they will be our downfall otherwise. That being said, I second motions 9.5, 9.6 and 9.7.
I must admit that I see two people where there is but one person. I see Legate Augustus Verginius, who is a fine commander, a good soldier, and a dear friend. Then, I see Senator Augustus Verginius, who is little more than a blood-thirsty savage! You often use the example of the sack of Rome as an argument against the Gauls, but now you are proposing to do worse! You already sacked and enslaved most of Gaul, and now you propose to exterminate an entire city! Rome wasn't exterminated by the Gauls, they are more lenient than you!
You say Gallic boys grow into enemies of Rome, but I disagree. Look at Cisalpine Gaul. Those boys you saw during your fight with Lucco are now fine subjects of the Roman Republic and may, in time, be valuable allies. The only thing the Gauls lack is the ability to rule themselves. As has been shown in Cisalpine Gaul, all they need is some Roman authority.
We will, of course, capture Gergovia to recover the eagle. If we hold on to Gergovia, then those particular Gauls will pose no further problems to Rome, and will, in fact, be an asset. Abandoning it would just invite further problems, even if most of the population was killed. We need no buffer state, as the Iberians are bound to attack us anyway, as everyone else has. They may even do so now, as they may perhaps try to take advantage of the fact that we are engaged in many other wars. I, for one, am not afraid of them. Let them come, they will die like all others have.
One thing I should note is that the Iberian army blocking Massilia Ford is not, technically, on our territory, so the Consul is currently not authorized to engage them. Which is why I propose the following:
Motion 9.8: This house considers any attempt by Iberia to block access to Gergovia to the Roman armies as a hostile act, and authorizes a declaration of war on Iberia should any such attempt be made.
GeneralHankerchief
07-31-2006, 05:01
I say that I must disagree with you, Consul Coruncanius. The Gauls have recovered quickly from our previous raids, that much is clear. If we do not finish them once and for all they will continue to menace us. Thus I propose the following:
Motion 9.9: Gaul is to be destroyed by the end of the next Consul's term. The determining of the ownership of their remaining settlements is to be decided by the Senate.
I also second Motion 9.7.
And so I propose that we finish them off by holding on to any of their settlements we capture. As was shown in Cisalpine Gaul, that is the most permament solution, and the most beneficial to us.
P.S. I apologize, but I have added a Motion to my statement a little late. Please change your motion number to 9.9.
{Servius Aemilius} It seems there is ever the feud amongst our fine senators..but that is a good thing I think. I would fear what may become of Rome's enemies should the whole of the senate ever turn their eyes in one direction alone. But even in an idealistic world, however, such a thing does not seem feasable given the current circumstances. Forgive my rather rude interjection senators..as I don't mean to undermine the proposals of more experienced men...but if I may offer the following suggestion for review, I think there may be a sound solution to at least some of Rome's quandries.
After careful thought and deliberation between myself and my mentor, I have drawn up the following proposal for our dealings in the Gallic theatre. A three pronged plan designed to take minimal resources from territories that could better be used to deal with the Thracian threat, prevent any overzealous Iberian incursions into Roman lands, and finally subdue the majority of the remaining Gallic territories that have as yet eluded Roman rule. If you would, please, senators, take a look.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/ServiusPlan.jpg
Step One, in Orange. The construction of a fort placed directly between the first and seconds fords near Massilia, and garrisoned by Legio III, would not only prevent the possibility of any overzealous Iberian or Gallic incursions, but also maintain freedom of movement for the legions between Massilia and Cisalpine Gaul.
Step Two, in Red. During the same season as the construction of the Massilian Fords Fort, I will personally begin the march of the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia out of our fort near Jenuensis and through the northern Alpine Pass. Dealing swiftly with the Gallic army outside of Comata and then capturing the town itself would be everything we'd need to finish the campaign for the return of our lost eagle to Rome...During the proceedings of this campaign for Comata, I would advise the reinforcement of Legio III to whatever level possible by the facilities in Massilia or via the purchase of mercenaries.
Step Three, in Blue. We finish the deed, marching the Ford Fort garrison north and the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia south to close Gergovia in a pincer movement. This would ensure the capture of all remaining Gallic lands directly on our borders and the return of the Eagle to Rome. I would suggest that Augustus Verginius command the siege of Gergovia, with Marcellus Aemilius as Tribune. I will support with the Auxilia as reinforcements should the unthinkable occur and Legio III somehow suffer a defeat or be placed in dire need of rescue.
I will leave Gergovia's fate after it's fall up to further deliberation of the senate. Drustan of Docetia, if encountered at any point of these campaigns, will be put to the sword. The gods shall not have mercy on his wretched soul. If he crosses my path, I will personally return his head to this senate floor.
I would suggest this as Motion 9.10 This motion will negate all other motions dealing with the Gallic problem.
I must also second Motion 9.6. Thrace is not an enemy that can too long be fought with undermanned legions.
That is everything..I trust the wisdom of the senate to consider my idea and pass judgement as they see fit.
Young Aemilius, I am glad you have taken an interest in resolving our current situation, and applaud your boldness in presenting your ideas to the Senate. If I may be so bold, I would like to point out the flaws in your plan, and some in your presentation.
For step one, I don't believe it is possible to construct a fort there due to adverse terrain.
For step two, you are suggesting that you, who has no experience commanding troops in the field, who has not even attained the rank of Tribune in the Roman army, lead an entire Legion on a long march through the Alps, deep into Gallic territory, along a difficult trail with no roads. Let us not be overconfident. Do you suppose you can manage a Roman Legion, keep it supplied, and lead it in battle, when you have never done anything of that sort on any scale yet, nor have you assisted anyone in doing so? Will the Centurions, who effectively outrank you, even listen to your orders? Will the Senate trust you in this task, having no meter of your knowledge and skill? I am not saying these things to dishonor you, but, let's be realistic.
For step three, there is a netural army in the way of the southern strike, which would have to be addressed, and proper authorization given. Verginius is currently in Moesia, and there would be a significant delay before he arrived in theater. How would the tactical situation change until he arrived? Would you wait for him to arrive in Cisalpine Gaul or in Comata? How would this change your plan?
And finally, some presentation formalities. The motion you wish to propose should be numbered 9.10. You see, the first number indicates that we are in the 9th senate session, while the second number indicates that that is the 10th motion to be proposed. Motion 10.1 would be the first motion of the 10th session (the next session in 2 and a half years' time). Also, Motions should be clear instructions to the Consul; so, you'd want to phrase your plan within a few, clear sentences, to be the actual text of the motion. Finally, negating all other motions dealing with the Gallic problem is far too broad. Motions presented so far don't even concern the tactical situation, but mainly what we would do upon capturing Gergovia. In general, you'd want to limit negating to specific motions already proposed. If you do not see any motion that you would need to invalidate in order for your motion to be implementable, then you need to take no action, as your motion will take precedence over any future motions that are proposed.
x-dANGEr
07-31-2006, 08:07
A strange sound made by a known voice flows into the air.. "Agh.."
Silence roams in the hall, for it seems that voice has more to say.
"I see the trust in our Roman Generals has grown too little.. With every word spoken about raising another legion, you simply insult me, and all my companion generals.. Shame, yes shame. You talk about disgrace and dishonur Publius Laevinus has brought, but forget about all the glory he raised.. Many Roman lives have been wasted, and lost, but many more have been saved.. I don't care what you say, but I know, and for sure, that fearing another war through venging the blood of those loyal and brave Romans is disgrace, and is dishonur. I feel no pitty for Gallic men, I feel no pitty for Iberians, I feel no pitty for Thracians, I feel no pitty for Greeks, and I feel no pitty for any other enemy.. But, I respect them each, as enemies, as brave warriors who chose to stand and fight the great eagle of Roma! I pitty them not, not because I hate them, but because there is no pitty in war. And so, I ask and require, that Rome starts war at each side in order to finish it. It all started when we kept those Gallic cities, other nations started to invade us, knowing that if we wage war; and that is unlikely, thanks to you, peaceful Senators, we will still keep their cities, and their children safe to them."
Motion 9.15: An investigation is to be launched about the facts of the Messilia battle that Publius Laevinus has lost. His glory surely had more than a regular battle to lose. (This one is RP-face, just RP-ing)
Motion 9.16: War is inevitable, and on all sides. And so, every opposing factions should have a Legion assigned to conquer it.
OOC (The suggestion as to who would lead the second assalt was a misreading of information in the library on my part as to who was actually stationed where, my apologies. Also, to the motion numbers.)
In regards to the fort, if not in that spot precisely then a bit more to the east, or even on the Massilian side of the second ford if need be, the fact remains that there must be some form of solid barricade between Massilia and an invading army. The Iberians or Gauls could be too easily enticed into attacking an already very weakened legion out in the open. And a siege of Massilia itself would only be detrimental to Rome, whether the siege could be effectively broken or not.
The neutral army you speak of is the Iberians, who will by then most certainly have moved on, or we can go around them as proposed with a small fleet. Your concerns in regards to the Iberian army near Massilia blocking a push south from Comata to Gergovia are a bit unnecessary, but either way, the route to Gergovia offers two seperate mountain paths, either one can be taken to avoid a neutral army in the way.
And I must agree with you senator..let us be realistic. The eagle must be returned as immediately as possible, with as little serious loss as we could afford. I am confident in myself, I am confident in the legions, I am confident in Rome. I am no fool, I am well open to the suggestions of my more experienced fellow men, in the Auxilia where I am currently stationed, and here. But you too must recognize that this is not a chance we could afford to lose.
If I succeed, what kind of hero would that make the senate in the eyes of Rome? Placing their faith in an unknown and entrapping the rest of the Gallic lands under Roman rule in one campaign? The people will applaud the senate on its actions, the people grow fat and happy on the stuff of legend. The senate's wisdom in the selection of young generals will bring the people further stories of Roman conquest and glory. Perhaps even honorary monuments constructed in the senate's name...in a Romanised Comata, or Gergovia.
Besides this, is the experience of much older, embattled generals not needed elsewhere where the threat is much more vast? No less than four Thracian armies bear down on Segestica in the east, the Greek and Macedonian cities are unhappy and the threat of Illyrian, Thracian or Macedonian invasion is still very real. Would you have these men withdraw from established roman domain only to lose it to those who we have fought so hard to take it from? Such an act would embolden these people, incite them to rebellion and give them new vigor.
And if I fail...quite personally I don't foresee such a turn of events, but if I do..what serious loss has the senate incurred that could not be easily replaced in a season or two?
And as one last remark, senator...the management of many is the same as the management of a few, it's all a matter of organisation, are not the legions the most organised military system in the world? I can lead these men, I can keep them supplied, they will obey me, if not for my rank, than for my conviction in this cause. I can lead Rome to a victory on this campaign.
And finally, since my oratory seems to be a bit lengthy compared to what was expected..as proposed for...
Motion 9.10 I suggest the construction of a buffer fort between Massilia and Gergovia, the marching of the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia under my command to take Comata, the convergance of the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia and Legio III on Gergovia pending a successful campaign against Comata.
Senators! Now is not the time to bicker amongst ourselves. Nay, now is the time for unified action more than ever before.
Whilst I am a little confused about the numbering of the Motions currently I will second the following motions:
#9.5
#9.8
#10.3
I also propose the following Motions:
Motion #9.11 (??): The immediate reassignment of Senator Augustus Verginius to the Gallic theatre.
- He has shown himself as being consummate in his actions against the Gauls, I can think of no other commander who would be MORE ready to retrieve our lost honour and Eagle.
Motion #9.12 (assuming 9.11 is numbered correctly): The complete conquest and retention of the Gallic held lands.
- The time of half measures has past now. The Gauls have shown themselves foolish beyond belief and utterly un-trustable. This must be finished NOW and finally.
Motion #9.13: The blocking Iberian army should be threatened with our own forces – our intent made clear over a season. If they choose to withdraw, the motion permits the moving past the force to engage the Gauls, if they do not, the Motion authorises immediate war against the Iberians.
- We must give the Iberians the chance to decided their own fate. IF they choose to stand against us, so be it.
Our campaign must continue against the Greeks and Macedonians and both factions must be finished as fast as possible. I believe this war is progressing as could be expected but it is obvious we require more legions now in order to defend our expanding borders, do this end:
Motion #9.14: The authorisation to raise THREE Legion strength forces. These are to be assigned as per Motion #10.3 (one to our Gallic campaign, one to face Macedonia and Greece and one to face Thrace).
- Whilst we do not require additional support for the campaign against Macedonia, we will require further strength to support our effort by defending our rear. The impending conflict against Thrace is bound to require additional Legions.
Now I call for TWO seconders for my motions as proposed.
I second motion 9.13. I believe that any other action such as immediately declaring war on Iberia prematurely without even a force near the ford is wrongheaded. If by the time a sizeable Legion has arrived and they are still there, Senator Curtius' suggestion will be what should be done.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am renumbering motions 10.1 and 10.2 as motions 9.15 and 9.16 respectively.
A motion 9.10 has been mentioned but it needs some concise text to be attached to it.
The next motion to be proposed should be numbered 9.17.
I firmly believe that the Gauls deserve naught but the sword. Yet, Senator Tiberius Coruncanius' words have surprised me. I expected this Senate to once again vote to leave the Gauls independant and to simply make an example of Gergovia and depart. In such a situation, no 'example' other than extermination would do. We ravaged their entire nation, enslaved thousands of citizens, and razed their cities to the ground. They learned nothing from thus, and so a harsher lesson would be necessary.
Yet, he speaks the truth about the Cisalpine provinces. The Gauls are of benefit to Rome... when they are working in chains and being supervised by Roman masters. I would find it entirely acceptable to refrain from extermination if we were to finally bring to an end the independant Gallic nation. In such a situation, I would like to personally oversee the 'Romanization' of Gergovia. I assure you, they will work harder than any man in the world under my yoke.
I second Motions 9.8, 9.9, 9.11, 9.12, and 9.15. In regards to Motion 9.15, a believe a trial should be conducted to determine the guilt of Senator Publius Laevinus. Should he be found guilty, exile to Melite for the remainder of his days may be in order.
On other topics, I believe it very important that the next Consul bring our current Legions up to full strength before raising new ones. New Legions may certainly be warranted, but voting them into existence is meaningless unless the other Legions are also strengthened. Legio II is at half strength. Legio III is barely more than two cohorts and it is outnumbered by the entire Massilia garrison that is encamped with it. Legio IV is at half strength. Legio VI is mostly mercenaries and has not a single Roman infantry. Even Consular I Army is at half its normal strength. Reinforcements are urgently needed for all of these Legions. If they are not properly brought to strength, they simply will not be able to continue the wars in the East. I will not bring a motion about this out of fear of over-legislating the next Consul, but I urge him to strengthen our existing Legions first, before raising new ones.
Dutch_guy
07-31-2006, 12:43
In regards to Motion 9.15, a believe a trial should be conducted to determine the guilt of Senator Publius Laevinus. Should he be found guilty, exile to Melite for the remainder of his days may be in order.
I second motion 9.15 also.
Although I deem a public trial better, the plebs. should be allowed to hear both sides of the story...and I also deem it wiser to wait with a punishment untill all the facts are known. For all we know, Melite is far too good a place to send our general, we'll see...
:balloon2:
Then we have reached an agreement. I will second Motions 9.11 and 9.12. I expect Senator Verginius to support Motion 9.3 rather than Motion 9.1 as the instruction to the Consul to recover the eagle.
On a different topic, I think that legislation about organization, such as specifying the number of legions to be raised and their assignment, is not needed, and is far too specific. When the Consul levies new troops, he will organize them as he best sees fit, given the situation. I think the Consul is better suited to decide on details like these than the Senate. The most detailed instruction that the Senate ought to give is the directive to levy some troops, which will probably be done anyway.
On a more urgent note, I believe it is time for those who wish to lead the Republic to step forward. The time in this session is running out, and I will vote for no one unless I have had the time to dissect their plans.
After what the learned Senators have stated I will reword Motion #9.14 thus:
Motion #9.14: The Senate authorises the raising of troops to bring all current field armies back up to their fully operational levels as well as raise, up to, three additional field Legions.
Whilst I agree that the choices must be with the acting Consul he must also be aware that the Senate has allowed him to do such re-organisation and the required drafting of our citizens but also that we put limits upon his use of our Roman manpower and taxes.
I don't believe we have a sufficient number of lower house Legates to activate three additional legions. But since that's given as optional ("up to"), and since I believe the current units need reinforcement, I will second Motion 9.14, as it is phrased now.
I support the general principle behind Motion 9.15, but don't like its wording. We have no procedures in place to conduct an investigation or a trial. The Motion should be rephrased so that it assigns a person or a comission to conduct the investigation, or specifies a way for us to choose such persons or comissions. Further, the Motion should specify if it would be the task of the same body to determine a punishment, or if it should be the Senate that does that based on the findings of the invesgitation. This Motion should be a constitutional amendment that specifies how these sorts of things are to be done in the future.
Death the destroyer of worlds
07-31-2006, 23:39
A messenger arrives, looking rather the worse for wear...
Greeting honoured senators, I bear word from Legate Lucius Aemilius, who is momentarily besieged in Segestica by the foul Thracian horde, and is thus unable to attend in person. A mere siege by a thousand bloodthirsty barbarians is not enough to stop the unstoppable Roman Courier Service (not wind, nor rain, nor guard dogs or bloodthirsty hordes will hold us back - RCS motto), and so I am pleased to present you with the words of my commander.
Conscript fathers,
Led me start of by applauding the exemplary leadership shown by Tiberius Coruncanius ! I have watched his bold plans unfold with trepidation, on occasion even fearing for his life and that of our men, but my fears for the Republic slowly gave way to amazement when I saw his achievements during his reign as consul. Truly, Mars and Jupiter must have been standing behind him all the way, guiding him with strength and wisdom ! His audacious strategy and the power of our legions gave us victory !
We are now masters of Greece, a very wealthy province and a welcome addition to our lands. The Greeks have been banished from the mainland and the Macedonian juggernaut is broken. The Illyrians are close to defeat and are down to one unwalled coastal city, Salona.
Alas, seldom are there good times unmixed with ill. I saw ill omens in the flight of the birds and when taking the auspices shortly before I got the news that the most horrible thing has befallen our nations, the loss of the III's legionary eagle. I was still in shock when an earth tremor, no doubt caused by gloating enemies in the Netherworld caused part of the wall to collapse, and only with a supreme effort of will did my demoralized men manage to erect an improvised barrier before the camp was overrun by the barbarians. All manner of ill tidings have plagued us since, no matter how grand our sacrifices.
I blame this ill fortune on the wrath of the Gods. Only if we placate them by regaining the eagle will the balance shift once more. Even if not for the Gods, as I know not all of you are so religiously inclined as myself, I beg you to think of the morale of our troops. My men are so terrified they will lose their standard as well they no longer sleep in their tents, but in a circle around the standard untill I put a stop to it by having it guarded by my Praetorians. We must make it our highest priority to regain the eagle, and not men or mountain should delay us in achieving this goal.
Our nation is strong, but the heavy fighting has left it in disarray, which strongly disagrees with my Roman sense of order. Our new territory, while still prosperous, is blackened and burned by the ceaseless strife. Many of the cities are littered with copses and burned buildings. The greatest worry, our legions are battered and even in Italy itself there is hardly a cohort of men up to full strength. I place no blame on Tiberius Coruncanius, we were so hard pressed even our garrisons were needed at the frontlines. This situation must however be remedied immediately.
New troops must be raised en masse and send to to front to strengthen our forces, and to Hades with the expense involved. The Illyrians, down, but not out, must be crushed immediately as well, so we need no longer watch our backs at the Greek frontlines. Finally, the cities must be rebuild and the garrisons brought to full strength. We should also build a large number of temples, to regain the favour of the Gods while we strive to regain our honour by recapturing the lost legionary eagle. Only with their favour shall we succeed and this dark cloud banished which now hangs over us.
I am pleased to hear of so many new and eager men who want to do their bit for Rome and I applaud you for it. Without your fervor our the Republic would crumble like the empires of the ancients within a generation.
I will second the following motions :
Motion 9.1 Retrieve the eagle and exterminate the Gauls in Gergovia.
Motion 9.5 Move out the garrisoned regular troops (few as the are) to strengthen our battered legions.
Motion 9.6 Raise a new legion (We will need several new legions).
Motion 9.7 A triumph for Tiberius Coruncanius !
Motion 9.8 Nothing shall stand in our way in our quest to regain our honour !
Motion 9.11 Augustus Verginius to Gaul !
Motion 9.13 I am willing to wait one season, just one mind you, to prevent a bridge battle against a massive army.
Motion 9.14 Raise three legions (We will need several new legions).
Motion 9.15 Who amongst us is not anxious to know what befell our legion on that disastrous day ?
Motion 9.16 Rather trivial, but I''ll second it.
I will NOT second the following motions :
Motion 9.2 I agree with this motion, but I will only see my son Marcellus assigned as a tribune when he has finished his studies.
Motion 9.3 Mars must be pacified and an example set to all barbarians.
Motion 9.4 The Gods will punish us if we delay our actions more than absolutely necessary.
Motion 9.9 The Gauls have an isolated province on their western coast. It would be strategically crazy to march trough the Iberian lands and capture it, let alone hold it. I am willing to leave them one small fishing village.
Motion 9.10 A good motion, but already proven unsound.
Motion 9.12 See Motion 9.9.
I wish once more to commemorate Marcus Laevinus, who died at the Relief of Scodra. Perhaps his death was the reason that Publius Laevinus's wits were deranged on the day of the defeat of the Legio III.
Finally, since no candidates have come forward as yet, I will stand myself for the office of first consul, but only with a co-consul. I ask my collegae Augustus Verginius if he will stand for office alongside me, as it is a burden I cannot carry myself for a full term. He and I both know the hardship of a full term.
OOC : I might be going on a short vacation at the end of August, and I need someone able to fill in if needed for a week or perhaps two. I will start the first half of the reign myself, and continue if needed, but otherwise the co-consul can take over. I am open to any other arrangements.
I believe this would be an excellent time to review the proper trial procedures. As you all know, it is required by law that an elected Praetor preside over any trial. It is then customary for a plaintiff to make a complaint to the Praetor. A large jury of patrician men is then chosen to rule on the case. Though we all know that it is the responsibility of the plaintiff to act in the role of the Prosecutor and the defendant to act in his own defense, it is customary to also allow a defense attorney to aid the defendant in his case.
Thus, I propose the following:
1) For convenience and expediency, the presiding Consul will choose a Senator to act as Praetor. The Praetor will be in charge of supervising the trial in whatever manner he sees fit.
2) A plaintiff must step forward to make a charge against the defendant. In this particular case, any Roman citizen should be a valid plaintiff since the honor of the entire Republic has been offended. In the interests of clarity though, it would be best if any prospective plaintiffs determined amongst themselves who would speak at the trial.
3) The defendant may select an attorney to aid him in the trial. Though it is traditional for the defendant to speak in his own defense, it is acceptable to delegate this duty to the attorney if the defendant would prefer. In this case, as it appears that Publius Laevinus will not be present for his own trial, an attorney must be charged with his defense.
4) At the trial, only the Praetor, the Plaintiff, the Defendant and the Defendant's Attorney will be allowed to speak. Once the Praetor determines that the trial is concluded, the jury will vote on the verdict. In this case, it is entirely appropriate for the entire sitting body of the Senate to vote on the matter at hand.
5) If found guilty, it is traditional to exile members of the Senatorial and Equestrian classes for a determined period of time. During their exile, their property is confiscated, they are banished from Rome and no Roman citizen may give them aid or shelter. In extreme cases, the death penalty can be imposed and is normally carried out by being buried, burned, or cast from a cliff. I believe it acceptable if the Praetor prescribe the punishment to be enforced if a guilty verdict is determined.
I believe all of this is in accordance with the laws and traditions of the Republic, as best as can be managed in our current... situation. In the eventuality that these procedures are followed and Publius Laevinus is brought to trial, I would like to volunteer to serve in his defense. Though I am as outraged as any man by what has transpired, it was the very establishment of a fair system of justice that has set the Republic apart from all other nations. As always, I seek to serve Rome above all others. In this situation, Rome is best served by a fair and honorable trial.
I will third Motion 9.14, most of Rome as it stands lies in threat of attack from all fronts, our standing legions being shadows of their original selves.
I would also like to propose Motion 9.16, to deal with public discontent in the Greek cities.
A number of cities there, specifically Elis, Larissa and Antigonea, are outspoken in their discontent with our rule, they must be shown that Roman ways can provide them with a much more favorable lifestyle than they had previously enjoyed. These people are within a breathe of rebellion, letting their situation go unchecked would only impassion them to revolt.
And, I must, for one last time, push the issue of Comata and Gergovia. The Gauls consider Comata their capital, and Gergovia holds the Roman Eagle...
I will urge the senate once more to take into consideration, even a watered down version of my plan...
Motion 9.10 Revised I suggest the march of the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia, by a general deemed worthy by the senate, through the north Alpine Pass to take Comata. A reinforced Legio III and Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia would then converge on Gergovia. Legio III making use of ships to go around the Iberians if need be.
As my final comment, I must remind all that I could lead the army to and take Comata in two seasons time, if the senate permits. Waiting for another general could take too long, and we could lose the benefit of suprise.
EDIT
I too will second Motion 9.15. The cause of the disaster must be discovered, so that such a tragedy does not occur again.
Also, if the senate decides to approve motion 9.10 and does not deem me worthy of leading the auxilia, I would like to request a transfer to Rome to study at the scriptorium.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-01-2006, 00:15
I am reminded that Augustus Verginius is not allowed to stand for office once more as officialy he should wait one more term. However, I ask leniency of this house in this matter. I ask all those who do not mind waiving this regulation in this specfic instance to speak out in his favour.
Alternatively, I am willing to work with another senator as co-consul.
OCC : Actually, the more I think about it, this co-consulship is a great idea. Perhaps we should change the regulations accordingly.
EDIT :
I will second Motion 9.16 and the revised Motion 9.10.
Dutch_guy
08-01-2006, 00:54
1) For convenience and expediency, the presiding Consul will choose a Senator to act as Praetor. The Praetor will be in charge of supervising the trial in whatever manner he sees fit.
3) The defendant may select an attorney to aid him in the trial. Though it is traditional for the defendant to speak in his own defense, it is acceptable to delegate this duty to the attorney if the defendant would prefer. In this case, as it appears that Publius Laevinus will not be present for his own trial, an attorney must be charged with his defense.
I understand why one would like to let the presiding consul choose a senator as praetor, but in all the history of our republic our praetors have been elected. I propose we let the senate elect a praetor. It may also be wise not to let any direct family members of the acused act as praetor, as to ensure that no praetor could be...persuaded or tempted in any way...to alter his judgement.
Further more, it might be a good idea to assign/ vote in a praetor every consulship, who would then be responsible for all the justicial actions that might surface during that particular consulship.
I find it an honorable move to volunteer to act as Publius' defence attorney, but maybe you should let one of his family members act in his defence ? To minimilise the shame which their family has recently acquired. If not, then I deem Publius' defence to be in good hands as it is.
OCC : Actually, the more I think about it, this co-consulship is a great idea. Perhaps we should change the regulations accordingly.
It most certainly is, it would be especially useful to those who might not have a lot of time on their hands. And, didn't the Roman empire always employ two consuls, as to secure that no one man could rule the empire ? Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
:balloon2:
Avicenna
08-01-2006, 01:12
Senator Aemilius, I think a re-wording of your revised motion 9.10 is necessary, as it is too vague and too strict at the same time. You merely suggest the proposed action, so the First Consul is not obligated to follow it, even if passed. Also, if simply reworded to remove this, it would cause confusion and maybe even death, as there is a motion for the removal of Romans from all Auxilia garrisons to active Legions. This calls for nought but the Italian spearmen to deal with the foul hordes. I am not doubting in our Italian allies' courage, but if our largest Legion, lead by a talented commander, was destroyed by an advancing Gallic horde, I doubt that our allies will be able to capture a city from them.
I will not further reword the motion to take Comata and Gergovia, and I personally feel that the removal of our Roman men from the auxilia is not only unneccessary but irresponsible. Also, the horde you speak of is that of Drustan of Docetia, who our information does place to be encamped to the southwest of Gergovia until the end of this season. The entire campaign is a suggestion. It is my personal opinion that the conquest of Comata and Gergovia would be beneficial to the immediate return of the Eagle. But should the consul decide that the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia could be better put to use in aiding against Thrace, I will not be the one responsible for the loss of Segestica, and possibly Aquilaia and Patavium, depending on how far the Thracians could push before a Roman army could be raised to push the Thracians back. This, senator, is why I will not reword the motion into a mandate. It must remain a suggestion.
Not only that, but my grandfather is leading Legio I in Segestica. Would you presume to make the immediate conquest of Comata and Gergovia a mandate and risk the possibility of having Senator Lucius Aemilius put to the Thracian falx? I do strongly support the campaign, as it was my suggestion. But I will not deny the consul of his own wisdom by making the campaign an immediate mandate. If the consul deems the Cisalpine Gaul Auxilia to be more useful in the relief of Segestica, then it must be so. But I have confidence in my grandfather's abilities. Reinforcements from Aquileia and Patavium should be enough to turn the Thracians long enough for a more substantial reinforcing force to arrive.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I second Motion 9.16 and propose Motion 9.17 that henceforth all of Rome's immediate duties be carried out by two co-consuls.
Terms have become longer and more tedious and we have enough cities to allow two Consuls. As our empire has grown, so has the need for more attention to specific areas. As we stand here now discussing what should be done with Gaul and the fool Publius, our colonies in Greece face civil revolt! The "gods" will not help you in this matter, it is up to us to save ourselves. I realize that I speak these words from the comfort of my residence in Syracuse, but I have been feeling quite poorly and Chrysippus, the genius that is my tutor and mentor has suggested I might find the climate here more to my benefit. Also, the Academy here is renowned and you can rest assured when I am ready, my duty to Rome will be fulfilled as best as possible. Why the plebs are already fond of me, as I often travel to Rome for the games and can also be seen attending events at the Odeon here in Syracuse. They absolutely love me!... Of course, don't ask that idiot savant that hangs around me or the musicians that I employ, they may give false accounts of my "anger" or "drinking" or what have you, hah!... Why? Have they said anything? Oh I'll... *grumbles angrily*
Ehem, yes, well. I must ask one favor of the senate, that upon graduation, I am not assigned as Tribune alongside my foolish father with Legio V in the fort to the north. I could not stand working alongside that man, no sense, no sense at all... always speaking of the gods, consulting soothsayers, checking the direction of the flight of birds, what foolishness! My talents would be wasted rotting away in that fort you see. But I'm sure that when the time comes, I will be able to show and put to use my talents and abilities for the greater good of Rome.
I find it an honorable move to volunteer to act as Publius' defence attorney, but maybe you should let one of his family members act in his defence ? To minimilise the shame which their family has recently acquired. If not, then I deem Publius' defence to be in good hands as it is.
I wish to point out that Senator Publius Laevinus had two natural born sons and two step-sons. One of his natural born sons and one of his step-sons are dead. Of the other two, Decius Laevinus is his surviving natural son, and I am his surviving step-son, being married to his eldest daughter, Fadia. If Decius wishes to represent his father, he should of course be given that duty since he is the direct blood heir of Publius Laevinus. However, if Decius Laevinus does not take up the duty, I am his next closest surviving kin.
Senators,
Much has been said since I last took the floor and the issue of a trail to judge the Senator Publius Laevinus grows stronger. To this end I put myself forward as a candidate for Praetor. I feel that I am best suited to understand both the accusations and the defences put as I have no vested interest if there should be a guilty verdict or an exoneration of the Senator.
(OOC: Will request a different Avatar if we have one available)
As to the current motions tabled I second Motion #9.16 as well in its raw form but see no instruction on how to perform this task. Perhaps it is not required and just an instruction from the Senate to the next Consul to ensure unrest is held in check will be sufficient. Hence, I support the Motion.
I feel I cannot support Motion #9.17. It is the Senate that controls our lands and not the Consul, whilst his tasks become more complex, I can only see problems should our Republic have two “princes”.
(OOC: I support it but can’t justify it IC. So, I’ll vote FOR the motion anyway and we’ll say I’ve been “bought off”)
Also, whilst it does not form a Motion to be tabled, I will ask….no….urge the next Consul to issue ex-Consul Tiberius Coruncanius with a Legion and support in a campaign to crush the Thracians. We cannot allow such a strong and obviously aggressive neighbour to go unchallenged.
Avicenna
08-01-2006, 10:18
A messenger is seen to dash into the Senate hall, panting and covered in glistening sweat. His tries, and fails, to clean his creased, muddy Fedex clothing. Just as he starts to collapse, he holds out a small, barely legible note:
I deeply apologise to my father Publius Laevinius and the Senate, but I must regretfully govern the city of Corinth, so I cannot be present for the trial. I would, however, like to request that my brother-in-law Augustus Verginius stand trial in place of my father. My best wishes to him.
Decius Laevinius
Edit: removed statement due to OOC info
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-01-2006, 12:33
...I would, however, like to request that my brother-in-law Augustus Verginius stand trial in place of my father.
OOC : Now I am not a native English speaker, but I don't think Augustus Verginius wants to stand trial :laugh4: I do think he will defend your father.
OOC: to clarify I think we can say "IC" that Augustus Verginius will be held "under house arrest" in lieu of his father appearing before the Senate judicial hearing AND as such can speak in defense of his father.
Actually, something that's very in keeping with the period.
Senators,
I have noted that a quite important Motion has gone, so far, un-seconded.
Motion #9.03.
I hearby second this motion in the hope another will also second it and allow it to be voted upon.
(OOC)There seem to accidentally be two seperate Motion 9.16's I believe, however, that mine has been seconded by Lucius Aemilius and Braden's character.
(OOC:) Lucjan, I can't see any clear text to your motion 9.16. Please propose motions using the format:
Motion 9.x: This house proposes X, Y and Z.
Can you draft something using that format and renumber it? I will rejig the seconders accordingly.
Mount Suribachi
08-01-2006, 18:54
Senators,
I have noted that a quite important Motion has gone, so far, un-seconded.
Motion #9.03.
I hearby second this motion in the hope another will also second it and allow it to be voted upon.
It has gone un-seconded because it is a foolish motion and you are a fool for seconding it!
The Gods have cleary spoken to us on this issue. The Gauls are Barbarian scum, who cannot be tamed or civilised. The only way we can have peaceful relations with them is when they are lying on the ground with their insides spilling out. I had the honour of serving under former Consul Augustus Verginius in Gaul, I know first hand that they are uncivilised savages deserving only of eslavement or death - I have yet to decide which would be the more appropriate course of action. My former general is correct in his assertion that to vote for this motion is to vote against Jupiter Optimus Maximus.
I would ask to accompany Augustus Verginius to Gaul to rescue our precious eagle, but I know that it is Jupiters will that I remain here in Greece with Legio VI in order to finish off the Greeks and Macedonians.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I do not think the war with Thrace has received sufficient discussion here. What are to be our war aims? Clearly, we must first beat off their invasion, but what next? It seems unlikely that the aggressors will settle for peace, so we have to decide - do we intend to occupy their lands, and if so, to what extent?
Senators, I forsee use becoming embroiled in wars with two factions that control vast areas of land - Thrace and Iberia. On the latter, if we are to eliminate Gaul, as some propose, that will take us to the Atlantic. Merely occupying the three current Gaulish settlements will leave us hopelessly exposed and surrounded by Iberian lands. We will surely become quickly at war with Iberia.
I believe now is the time to discuss our territorial ambitions. Do we seek to occupy all the lands of Thrace? And what of Iberia, should it come to war? Or do we seek more limited goals, at least initially, for example - occupation of all former Gaulish settlements? There is merit in identifying a defensible frontier as our objective and directing our campaign towards achieving that goal rather than chasing barbarians deeper and deeper into the wild. Rivers may be natural boundaries for such a frontier - as the Massila ford proved to be until recently.
Senators, I already have spoken in favour of currently limiting our Western expansion to the defensible Massila fords to allow us to focus our efforts on the threats to the east.
As for the east, I tentatively propose that we work towards occupying all lands west of the Danube. This would entail that Illyria, Macedon and Greece be destroyed, but I am not convinced of the virtue of pursuing a defeated Thrace into Germania. We would be better advised to look elsewhere for conquest - whether to Iberia in the west, Carthage in the south or indeed the rich lands of Asia Minor and the Levant.
Motion 9.18: This House proposes that the wars with Thrace, Illyria and Macedon be directed towards establishing a frontier along the river Danube.
Are there any seconders for this motion? Or indeed, any dissenters who wish to propose alternative war aims for the east?
GeneralHankerchief
08-01-2006, 19:21
I second Motion 9.18.
By the way, I am rewording Motion 9.2: ...blah blah blah Marcellus Aemilius as Tribune once he has completed school.
I second Motion 9.18.
As far as any Gallic campaign is concerned, I believe that after the destruction of Gallic state, the Gallic region disconnected from Gergovia by Iberian lands should be abandoned save for a small garrison. The Roman presence in Transalpine Gaul should probably be a fort somewhere near Gergovia. This may well invite an Iberian attack on the lighty defended region, but so be it; at least we'll know their true intentions.
After a bit of confusion I'm reproposing...
Motion 9.19 The house recognizes that there is a significant level of unhappiness in the majority of the Greek/Macedonian provinces, specifically Elis, Larissa, and Antigonea, and charges the next consul to remedy the problem according to his own discression within the first 2 years of his reign.
These people must be kept, at the very least, accepting of roman rule, their current outspokenness against us could only spread further discord. (In game terms, all current Greek/Macedonian cities must have a yellow or green level of contentment. Blue or open rebellion is completely unacceptable)
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-01-2006, 20:54
Another message arrives...
Conscript Fathers,
I would like to commend Numerius Aureolus for his acuity in spotting our neglect of this important matter. For those not schooled in geography I have provided this map.
https://img274.imageshack.us/img274/2413/mapwl5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
As you can see his proposition is very reasonable, as it is a natural and easily defended border. However, I will not start any new wars to realize these borders, being content to drive my enemies into it.
I will second the revised Motion 9.2.
I will second Motion 9.18.
I will not second Motion 9.19 as I think the time limit is too tight.
EDIT :
OCC : Be warned, fellow senators, that I will only run with a co-consul. If no volunteers have come forward before wednesday 6PM UK time I will be forced to withdraw my candidacy.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I hesitate to come forward because of my youth, but if Augustus Verginius is unable or unwilling to serve as co-Consul with Lucius Aemilius, I would be honoured to do so.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-01-2006, 22:59
OOC : Any port in a storm :laugh4: Just kidding :2thumbsup:
It would be my preference that Numerius Aureolus act as co-consul with Lucius Aemilius if such a position is required. The laws of Rome are the very cornerstones of our civilization. When we discard the laws of the Republic, we are no better than the Etruscan Kings that oppressed us for so many years. The proper amount of time has not passed since I last held the position of Consul and I fear that accepting it, even with the blessings of the Senate, would only serve to erode the Republic. I believe I can best serve the Republic by refusing to serve.
Furthermore, I am troubled by the notion of ceding our laws to allow for a co-Consul or to halve the terms of the Consulship. At very least, such decisions should not be taken without a vote on a Constitional Amendment in this body. Even so, I am confused as to why the Senate cannot arrive at a better solution to this problem.
We have many active members of the Lower House. Why do they not campaign for the position? Rome is strengthed by debate and by a contest of candidates. There is no such thing as defeat in a Consular election, as even an unsuccessful bid strengthens the Republic, and thus we all gain. Furthermore it is an excellent opportunity for those Senators who are relatively unknown to this body to make their voices stand out. My preference would be to see more individual candidates running for election. Already Numerius Aureolus has stated that he would serve as a co-Consul. Why is he not a candidate then in his own right? Why not others? Come forward fathers, the Republic has need of you!
I firmly believe that Lucius Aemilius is the right man for the position in such a time of crisis, but my first duty is to the Republic. If we wish to have Lucius Aemilius as our Consul for this term, we should legislate that his temporary absense is excused and resolve ourselves to pass the time in debate, philosophy or even silence. To do otherwise is to erode the foundations of the Republic.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Augustus Verginius has just given us pause for thought. It is true that we have many active members of the Lower House, but most have either served before as First Consul, as the good Verginius has, or are still relatively youthful, as I myself am. Of the more senior members of the Lower House who have not already served as First Consul, I can identify only Publius Laevinus, who has yet to account for his actions - or inaction - at the Massila ford and Publius Pansa.
In this situation, and bearing in mind Augustus Verginius words about the value of competition, I believe it is inappropriate for youth to be regarded as a bar to this high office. Therefore, I withdraw my offer to serve as co-Consul with Lucius Aemilius and offer myself for the office of First Consul.
Senators, the Republic is in crisis. One Consular strength army of Thracians besieges Lucius Aemilius in Segestica while other armies march towards lightly defended Aquileia. The Gauls mock us and exhibit our eagle in Gergovia. The war in Greece has extended and exhausted our armies, so that we are ill prepared for the most pressing current threats. But at heart, the Republic remains strong. We have an easily defensible Western frontier, while First Consul Tiberius Coruncanius has torn the heart out of Macedon. Greece and Illyria are mere shadows of themselves. We have great opportunities in the east, if we can rise to the challenge of the Thracian invasion. What the Republic requires at this moment is clear direction and focus.
My manifesto is simple and rests on three main planks.
The first is an orientation towards the east. On the east, we are faced with four enemy nations: Greece, Macedon, Illyria and Thrace. If I am elected First Consul, I will endeavour to leave the Republic with only one - a chastened and diminished Thrace, eeking out a miserable existence in the barbarian wastes east of the Danube. On the west, we face only one enemy, one that can barely be called a nation: the crippled Gauls - possessors of only three settlements. I will most certainly recover the eagle and punish the Gauls severely, but I will endeavour not to embroil us in a war with Iberia. That will no doubt come in the fullness of time. But it will be aim of my consulship to defer the war for a successor to deal with, one who can confident in a secure eastern frontier as we now can be confident in a secure western one.
The second feature of my Consulship will be consolidation. First Consul Coruncanius has fought a masterful war against Macedon but he has done it on something of a shoestring, with small frontline armies, depleted by attrition. I will endeavour to reform our armies on more standard lines and bring them up to full strength. I will continue to develop our core settlements, with a focus on the economic infrastructure necessary to fund our armies and on the roads necessary to maintain communications as the Republic expands.
The final aspect of my manifesto is a commitment to collegiality. I will follow the model provided by Lucius Aemilius and even more so by Tiberius Coruncanius of giving all Lower House members the opportunity to command our armies in battle. I will consult with each Lower House member over appropriate postings and will rotate positions so that each has an opportunity to shine. I will not waste the accumulated skills of our First Consuls and I will develop those of other Lower House members so that, when the next election comes, they will feel confident to stand themselves for the post of First Consul.
Senators, I am but a young man but with your help, I believe I can oversee the Republic during this time of crisis and opportunity.
GeneralHankerchief
08-02-2006, 01:30
Senator Aureolus, your manifesto and boldness is commendable, but I simply cannot vote for you based on one fact- you are too young!
I remember when my father was Consul, when we used to play Overthrow the King in his house. I remember the fun we had when bossing Dad's servants around. Then, around the time when Verginius was Consul your father was called to Eprius for military duty, and you went along with him. You got adopted into the Senate the same time I entered the Scriptorium in Rome. While I was studying away and listening to my many tutors argue about various affairs you served time as a Tribune and even led your own forces. It's not right that you should lead our great Republic while I'm still stuck in its capital toiling away, praying to the Gods that a Tribune position will be opened up when I turn twenty.
Conscript Fathers, what exactly has made this man fit to be Consul? Because he wants to? Well Senators, if that's the only qualification then I declare myself a candidate. While Aureolus has been in the action in Greece I've been learning how to. Does that make him any more qualified, the fact that he's had experience?
If Senator Aureolus is elected Consul then I demand that I shall be immediately removed from the Scriptorium to active military service. After all, if Aureolus is qualified to run the Republic then I, who is his same age, am certainly qualified to be a lousy Tribune. And if you do not agree - well, Conscript Fathers, that is the ultimate hypocrasy.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, your frankness does you credit and it is true, I am young. But I wonder if you are also a little young to be so tied to tradition and deference to your elders? Do you have no spirit, no sense of what you could be?
I confess I am not so bold that I would have stood without the prompting of my adopted father, Augustus Verginius. His words have caused me to pause and re-think; they have inspired my candidature. If this is seen as presumptious, I apologise - my move is out of duty, not ambition.
We stand here in the Senate, the Republic dishonoured by the loss of an eagle and your father besieged by invaders from Thrace. And yet none of our elders comes forward to stand as First Consul! So what do we do, we the next generation? Do we stand around and fret, hide in a corner and say we are too young to take up the challenge? Or do we work together and show the Republic what her sons can do for her?
Yes, I am young. I am eighteen. Alexander was twenty when he became King of Macedon. Is two years so important? Or was Alexander also too young? I do not claim to be an Alexander. I have seen battle. I have commanded an army. I have even been lauded as a popular hero. Yet I am no Alexander. I am however a Roman who is not ashamed to stand for my country when no other man will.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Senators, I believe the choice is clear. Numerius Aureolus has shown bold initiative and I for one do not doubt his abilities. He has 6 years of military experience already, lied about his age and became active at the age of 12! He is young, but is a good commander, this has been proven already. The people of this great Republic love him, he is a popular hero amongst the plebs. I believe his plans are exactly what this Republic needs in a time of crisis such as this. Do not let age blind you Senators! He has wisdom and experience beyond his years. He is married and to a fine woman indeed! I for one, as a young student, look up to Senator Aureolus and look forward to his reign as Consul. His plans of incorporating the younger generation of Romans into the military directly affect myself and my colleagues. I firmly place my vote with Numerius Aureolus and believe he is the right man for the job. Do away with these old men in the senate! It is time for the new generation to rise!
I've given this issue some thought, but was unable to make up my mind. On one hand, Numerius Aureolus is an able commander. There is no doubt about that, that has been proven, I have seen it, both in the actions of the Consular Army in and around Macedonia, where he was a Tribune, and with him in command of a small detachment in Epirus and Thessaly. Furthermore, his manifesto is reasonable and strategically sound.
On the other hand, he is inexperienced. I do not speak of his age. He may be young, but he has been in the Roman army for 6 years. I realize that he must have lied about his age upon joining, but that's in the past now. But I'm still not sure that's sufficient experience. I have no doubt he will be able to manage Rome. The civilian side of things, the treasury and the construction is easy, anyone can do that. Overall strategic command of the military is also not an issue as I see it, as he will have many experienced commanders in the field, and to give him advice. The only thing I'm worried about is the Consular Army. I'm just not sure that it can be entrusted to someone with only the experiences of a Tribune, commander small forces and being second in command. It would never happen under normal circumstances, so why does being elected by a civilian body that is the Senate enable him to command larger forces? Now, we have allowed Legates to take command of Consular Armies upon their election as First Consul, but the jump from Tribune to Consul is a bit much for me.
Upon being elected, he should and would take command of the Consular Army in name, and carry its banner, but I would feel a lot better if he would keep the size of his personal command to at most a Legion, for at least the first few battles. Should they be successes, then I could maybe accept that he commands an actual Consular Army.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul Coruncanius's words are just and fair. I will commit to initially lead only a Praetorian sized army, under the Consular banner, until the mid-term.
In passing, I would also expect other generals to fight with Praetorian armies, although I will endeavour to keep them up to full strength and where necessary supplement them with a couple of mercenary detachments. This may test our generals' command skills, but will allow us to fight with multiple armies on the broad front that the war in the east has become.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Senator Coruncanius makes a good point. I therefore propose Motion 9.20, that if elected Consul, Numerius Aureolus lead a Legion sized army for his first 3 battles. If shown to be successful, he can then raise the remaining troops necessary for a full Consular army.
OOC: What's the composition of a Preatorian sized army? In the FAQ, I believe I only saw Legion and Consular armies.
Avicenna
08-02-2006, 03:41
Senator Vatinius, could you please elaborate and explain what your interpretation of success is? If Senator Aureolus has three clear victories with a Praetorian army against bandits and brigands simply by outnumbering them does this count as success and enough proof that he is capable of leading our Consular army in your eyes?
As for the war to take the Danube, I agree that this is a defensible border. However, what shall we do with the lone Ptolemaic area on our side of the Bosphorus? Should we gamble that they will not attack us, or should we take it, through force or diplomacy?
I don't believe Motion 9.20 is necessary as Numerius Aureolus already expressed a commitment to limit the size of his personal command during the first half-term.
As far as Ptolemaic Thrace is concerned, it does currently stand in the way of a defensible border in the east. Ideally, I would like to see the Republic expand eastward to Bithynia, which is now held by the Greeks. That said, for as long as Ptolemy remains neutral, I don't believe it's necessary to attack him. If he wants to sell Thrace, that would be even better, as long as the sum involved is reasonable. I would not offer more than 5000 denarii for it.
It would be foolish to intentionally incite warfare with Ptolemy. His territory is vast and his resources are equally as great. Not only would they be a fearsome foe and a further burden on our already over-extended armies, but they are also a good trading partner and we would lose much in making them our enemies. Yet, they control both Maronia and Tylis. If we occupied any of the Macedonian settlements of Philippi, Bylazora or Ratiaria, we would be risking a border dispute with them.
I think this is a matter that the candidates for Consul must speak on themselves, but in my personal opinion there is no clear answer. It would certainly be preferrable to push the Macedonians from all of these territories, but a war with Ptolemy would be a disaster at this time. Is it worth the risk to see how Alexander's heirs react to the complete subjugation of his homeland? Still, Ptolemy is pre-occupied with the Seleucid pretenders and it is entirely possible that he will not mind sharing a border with Rome.
It is a difficult decision, and one which I would like to hear debate on.
One important thing about Ptolemy is that he is in Egypt. In order for him to fight a war in Thrace, he will have to ship everything over from Egypt. He cannot hope to win a war with Rome in Thrace, especially with the Roman fleet now sailing the Aegean Sea. Given the treasury and naval infrastructure in place, we could quickly get an even bigger fleet. I hope he realizes this. If he does, there will be no issue. If he does not, he will be defeated swiftly in Thrace.
Members of the Senate,
I will address what has been discussed in as much order as I can.
Firstly, I will NOT, cannot, support the wholesale slaughter of innocents! I never have and never will…..Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your blood-lust should be tempered lest you succumb to the very base and barbaric notions that you, yourself uphold as proof of the evil of the Gauls.
We are the light Senators! Not, the bringers of darkness and death….liberators and oracles of enlightenment and organised government and not oppressors of the plebeians.
However, I have seriously err’d. I have not taken into account the tactical position of the Gallic territories and I apologise for this. I have already proposed a Motion to retain control of these territories and whilst some of that motion is acceptable I believe it should be voted against and Motion #9.18 voted FOR in its place.
Motion #9.18 is a more tactically valid option and whilst we must take back that which is ours we must also consider the ultimate defence of the Republic. If Motion #9.18 has not been seconded again I will do so now.
The Gallic question hangs heavy on me though, and very reluctantly I now find myself agreeing that the population of Gergovia need to be made an example of. IF it was viable to hold and completely free the peoples of Gaul I would prefer that but as this is not sound I will have to agree to the utter destruction of Gergovia.
Do as you will with the town, murder its citizens, burn its crops, tear down its buildings…….we are left with little else as an option.
I know this will leave a deadness within my heart when it happens but my duty is to the Republic and not my own sensibilities.
Now, the issue of the First Consul elections worries me deeply. Whilst it is not ideal that candidates so young should be given such responsibility it appears that the other members of the lower house leave us little choice in the matter. I, like the current First Consul, also say that our laws must be upheld and that no Consul should have power for two consecutive terms.
The Republic is our dream, if forced, I will give it to the hands of someone half my age if I believed it to be the only option for its continued survival. Besides, let us not forget that whomever we elect as First Consul will have the guidance of our experienced heads in the upper house.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The question of Ptolemic Thrace is an interesting one. My immediate reaction is that it might be delayed until the mid-term session of Senate. Initially, we can concentrate on repelling the Thracians from Illyria and North Italy, driving them back towards the Danube. And we must also attend to the lost eagle. While that is being done, at least temporarily, we can leave a buffer of weakened Macedonian settlements between us and Ptolemic Thrace to avoid war with Egypt. They may serve much like the two Gallic settlements that lie between Massila and Iberia, which have kept us out of war with Spain. Given the location of our armies, it will take time to humble the Thracian kingdom - the Ptolemic province of Thrace is not a priority at this moment.
In the longer term, this reasoning may change. Thrace is a natural terminus to our eastern frontier and I am reluctant to allow Macedon to regroup. A war with Egypt over Thrace might be more easily resolved than one with Iberia over Gaul. Distance and separation by sea may lead hostilities to peter off, much as they have done with Carthage after we drove her from Sicily and the islands around Italy. By contrast war with Iberia may well prove interminable until she is utterly crushed and occupied. However, these are matters for the future - perhaps beyond even the next five years - and I agree that an entanglement with Egypt is the last thing the Republic needs at the moment. Motion 9.18 reflects a long term war goal, not an immediate objective.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-02-2006, 10:49
Conscript fathers,
Lacking a co-consul to stand beside me, I shall not run for office. Still, perhaps some other senator would take the place of Numerius Aureolus beside me ? Then I shall run and we will have a choice instead of a foregone election.
Perhaps Marcellus Aemilius would like to take his place. He will then be in a position to dictate policy himself. This offer is of course open to anyone.
EDIT :
I shall not go to war with the Ptolemaic empire.
Indeed this is a concern as war with Egypt will affect the Republics income greatly. However, your reasoning sounds firm in that we have precedent in Carthage who have not struck against us or even blockaded a port for many a year.
Perhaps a diplomatic move towards Carthage would be viewed with favour with them now? We have not had any direct aggressive contact with them for many a year, it would be advantageous to attempt to secure ourselves against them and the extra trade will be welcome.
As for Thrace…they are a powerful foe but we can best them I am certain of that. However, their lands cover a large area and plunge into a region of the world that I believe the Republic has no interest in at this time..
Drive them back past the Danube, fortify the border and be done with them until we have resolved other, more pressing, matters.
The Legions; I have now taken the time to fully review the First Consuls maps and military details and I am truly shocked at the state of certain Legions.
Whilst the Legio I Italia Victrix, currently besieged in Segestica, is what I would consider in “good form” it is BESIEGED!! I am certain that this matter will take precedence even beyond the recapturing of our lost Eagle when the next First Consul takes office.
Legio II Sabina Quintia, Legio III Sicilia Aemilia and Legio V Alaudae are at an acceptable manning level though would benefit from reorganisation.
However, Legio VI and Legio IV Gallica are in an APPALING state of affairs and I am surprised that we have permitted two field Legions to degrade in such a fashion.
I am, therefore, gladdened by the pledge to re-organise and recruit for our existing Legions because, whilst it is obvious that we will require additional Legions in the near future it is VERY CLEAR that we require to make our current Legions “Combat Worthy”.
I fully agree with Senator Decius Curtius but I wish to point out that the situation is even worse than he describes. Legios II, III, and IV are all far from being at acceptable levels. I would like to remind the Senate that the proper structure of a Legion is noted in the Library. There an example is shown of a proper legion, minus only a cavalry contingent. With cavalry, a full Legion should number about 660 men. Legio II currently has 309 men. Legio III has but 168 men and has had to be reinforced by the entire Massilia garrison. Even this reinforcement brings the total up to only 328 and it leaves the city itself completely undefended. Legio IV has only 227 men. Even the Consular I Army is composed of but 414 men, only 2/3 the strength of a Legion, and that includes over 100 mercenaries!
In truth, we have only two forces fit for battle, Legio I, which is besieged, and Legio V in Sicily. Perhaps Legio V should be activated and sent to the front and one of the more battered Legions on the East should be retired to the Sicilian position where it can be reinforced at a more leasurly pace.
Mount Suribachi
08-02-2006, 13:24
Firstly, I will NOT, cannot, support the wholesale slaughter of innocents!
*bangs fist*
There is no such thing as an innocent Gaul!! Only Gauls who seek to kill Romans, Gauls who will grow up to kill Romans or Gauls who will give birth to the second type of Gaul!! It is not about bloodlust, it is about protecting Rome and her citizens!
Numerius Aureolus, I admire you for stepping forward for the Consulship when other Senators would not. However, it seems that you need to spend a little more time studying in the scriptorium. You have barely begun your journey up the Cursus Honorum, you have not even finished your studies. Instead of practicising your skills on the Campus Martius you seek to be elected consul! Missing out the duties of Tribune, Legate, Praetor and Senator along the way!
For myself, I have always desired to conform to the mos maorium and stand for Consul at 40 or preferably 45 (42 being the preferred age). But times are difficult, our Republic is stretched, so it seems we must stretch ourselves and stretch the mos maorium. But an 18 year old consul is stretching it too far and I cannot stand for that. Jupiter Optimus Maximus reveals his will to me through signs and augurs and the actions of men, and at this time he prompts me to the following action. I desire it not, but I must obey the will of the Gods.
So, even though I am only 35, I put myself forward as a candidate for co-consulship with Lucius Aemilus - conscript father, will you have me?
*bangs fist*
There is no such thing as an innocent Gaul!! Only Gauls who seek to kill Romans, Gauls who will grow up to kill Romans or Gauls who will give birth to the second type of Gaul!! It is not about bloodlust, it is about protecting Rome and her citizens!
....and such actions and attitudes help ONLY to perpetuate that! We cannot hope to erradicate the Gallic peoples UTTERLY, there will always be a Gallic culture Senator. All your proposed actions achieve is to ensure those few whom remain alive swear a bloody vengeance against us.
You are not teaching them any lessions in humlity to their superiors, whom are ourselves, nay! All you teach them is anger and a desire for the heads of good, honest Roman citizens to be cast from their sholders.
You may as well place a sharpened sword in their own hands Senator.
Our strength of arms will allow us to show them that OUR way, OUR culture and OUR Republic are not to be hated but to be embraced.
Mount Suribachi
08-02-2006, 14:19
Unfortunately yes, there are a few Gauls left, but Augustus Verginius will soon correct that.
There will not always be a Gallic culture. In its place we may build a civilized, Roman, lasting culture though.
I admire your desire for a peaceful co-existance with Gaul, but it is nothing more than a naieve, foolish dream. Only one of us can exist at the same time and I intend that it be Rome.
Senator Servius AemiliusThere is much talk of expansion to the Danube against our enemies in the east, and it is not a subject that I would be adverse to...but if conducted in the manner in which I hear much of this talk, I would.
There are rumblings among some senators that would promote a war with Egypt and expansion into Bythinia. This, I feel, would place the empire in far too tenuous of a situation too quickly. A map of the borders proposed by these men would look like this. https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/original.jpg
Bear in mind this expansion is suggested for the reign of this consul. I cannot condone this. Expanding to such great lengths too quickly will place the empire in an even more dire situation than it faces now. Expanding directly to control the Danube would require taking two provinces held by the Thracians with land on both sides of the Danube, one with the most prominent city on the opposite side, making both of these territories more difficult to defend than these senators would have you believe. On top of this, direct borders with the vast Iberian tribes on the west, borders with the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires on the east, and the possibility of Germanic or Sarmatian tribes devouring the remains of Thrace and presenting yet another vast barbarian territory to our north would place Rome in a position to be taken apart piecemeal by four surrounding empires. Three of these nations have, at this time alone, the ability to go toe-to-toe with Rome, and due to the deplorable state of the legions, undoubtedly win. Our own information states that Iberia and the Ptolemies have the military capacity to wage a war resulting in a draw of success with Rome, and the Seleucids, although it is true their might has waned significantly over the years, still have a military capacity that surpasses us enough to win a war by sheer attrition and weight of numbers, were it to come to such. It is for these reasons that I will not condone such a course of action.
Instead, if any expansion of the Roman empire is to be desired during the course of this consul, I propose an idea more like this. https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/better.jpg
In such a scenaro, Rome would expand her borders to the provinces of Noricum and Pannonia against Thrace, both of them easily defendable provinces with borders on the edge of the Danube. It would not, however, take Dardania or the Tribus Getae regions from Thrace, both of them being potentially too difficult to defend this early on. Instead, the focus would be on completing the conquest of Illyria and Macedonia. The provinces of Moesia, Paionia and Edonia would offer us a more easily defendable border against both Thrace and the Ptolemies, and provide us with a solid oppertunity to open up trade and the potential of a strong, beneficial alliance with the Ptolemies. Ending the conflict by subdueing Illyria and Macedon and pacifying Thrace's might by pushing its western border to the Danube, would provide the empire time to stop it's headlong expansion and take a breathe. Time to consolidate and solidify the strength of our bolstering empire. Time to focus on solid infrastructure growth and the reorganisation and significant growth of the legions. A solid Rome could pick its allies carefully, and its enemies even more. Why fight three or four empires at once, when we can ally with one or two, and take them one at a time?
Consider my ideas carefully, the bravado of some of our warhawks to "Push to the Danube" shows an inability to truly recognise the state of the legions against the hordes of our barbarian neighbors and the cornered armies of Macedon.
Do not get me wrong, I am strong for advocating an expansion of Rome's territory too, but we are walking a thin line right now, and it would be wiser not to stretch it too thin. I would rather not find that line snap, and see Rome fall into the jaws of a barbarian behemoth.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-02-2006, 15:56
Conscript fathers,
Now that Amulius Coruncanius has commendably decided to support me as co-consul I will continue my/our candidacy. If he is anything like his father we can be sure the consulship will be in good hands with him/us.
I do not call for the withdrawal of the candidacy of Numerius Aureolus as I commend his spirit and so I wish him luck in the upcoming election.
Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your acceptance that, perhaps, the correct way forward is "Amalgamation” rather than genocide is heartening to me.
With young Senators like yourself willing to modify and adapt their, perhaps extremist, viewpoints there is hope for the future of the Republic indeed.
(OOC: shame….was gearing up for a good argument then. Even had my research done for ammunition against your character)
Senator Servius Aemilius, your ideas are also commendable and both proposals bare serious consideration by the Upper House. I ask if you are considering running for First Consul in the future? Agile minds are what the Republic needs as we grow stronger and or provinces stretch further afield.
Please, Senators, do not forget we are a Republic. This talk of “Empire” unsettles me but it is understandable……just remember WHO we are and who we represent. No King or Emperor rules our citizenry now.
My apologies in the utmost Senator Decius..and to the senate as a whole as that may be. Call my loose vocabulary a mistake of youth. I understand your position on my ill thought choice of wording. The Republic is the Republic for the very reason that no one man should have the strength to rule all of Rome. The old kings have taught our people this well, and surely the histories will not let the young forget why 'kingdom', or 'empire' is not the way of Rome. *A brief pause and the young senator raises his right arm, fisted.* Long live the Republic. *An eager glance cast to his fellow senators*
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-02-2006, 16:43
Conscript fathers,
Servius Aemilius has made an extensive analysis. I commend his effort. His view is the same as mine, except I will lay claim to the Gaul eastern provinces. With his dilligence it is indeed a shame he did not run for consul. He still has 1:15 to nominate himself :laugh4:
:laugh4: Dare I bother? At the age of 16? When another of our fellow senators is being criticised and he is two years older than I?
Mount Suribachi
08-02-2006, 18:27
Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your acceptance that, perhaps, the correct way forward is "Amalgamation” rather than genocide is heartening to me.
With young Senators like yourself willing to modify and adapt their, perhaps extremist, viewpoints there is hope for the future of the Republic indeed.
You misunderstand me Senator. I do not propose an amalgamation at all. I propose wiping out the Gauls. Only once that has been done can we build cultured, Roman civilisation upon their blackened ruins.
However, I agree with your statements regarding the poor choice of words of Servius Aemilius, thankfully he has realised his error. I would like to commend him on his plans, he clearly realises that we need to avoid any extra conflicts in order to build up our own strength and concentrate on our enemies. The only thing I would like to take him up on is his talk of "expansion" (and he is not the only only one to make this mistake).
We have not fought, or started, any wars of conquest or expansion. Every war we have, and are, fighting has been a defensive war where we have been the victim of foreign agression. Our enemies have been so unwilling to treat with us that we have been forced to take the wars to their soil, and even then then after losing city after city to us, they will not treat. So we must, unfortunately, fight on till we have eliminated their threat. So I fear it will be with Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Gaul and I fear also Iberia and the Ptolemites. But we must not ever seek expansion for its own sake. We are a Republic, not an Empire.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The scribes have organised polls for the post of First Consul and the passing of motions. The polls will close in 24 hours.
I do no believe Lucius Aemilius has posted a manifesto for his candidacy. Protocol dictates that one should be posted, although it need not be extensive.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-02-2006, 19:00
My initial message (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1206586&postcount=319) during this debate can be viewed as my manifesto. Nevertheless, I will summarize my priorities.
Retrieving our eagle from the threacherous Gauls
Consolidating our hold on our territory
Rebuilding our battered legions
The annihilation of Illyria
Generally reorganizing and reordering our cities and lands
A campaign against the Thracians and the Macedonians to the Danube
Large investement into public works, especially temples
My co-consul might have something to add to this list as well.
I urge all senators to vote AGAINST motion 9.12, as this would require our legions to march trough Iberian held lands, which will probably lead to yet another war.
Anyone who says that all Gauls are out to kill us is an ignorant fool. Go to Cisalpine Gaul, go visit Patavium or Mediolanum, and tell me, who there wants to kill you? Nobody, that's who, other than perhaps a murderer or two, but they are hunted down there as they are in Rome. The Gauls are only a problem when they're allowed to govern themselves. Anyone who argues otherwise has never been to Gaul, or is completely blind. Or maybe he has an irrational fear of the Gauls. Who knows. One thing is certain, however, any such argument does not have its base in logic.
Well, Senator Coruncanius, when I speak of expansion, I do so because we are at war. No matter what standpoint you view Rome's situation from, you cannot deny that we must take the land of our aggressors or forever be subject to their assaults. As you should also note, it is myself who has tried to significantly moderate the extent to which many would have us expand. It is my opinion that the Republic must show the world it cannot be sent swiftly into the night, it will strike a spark against its foes and rise to become a new star in the sky. Unforetunatly culture alone cannot sway our foes to set aside the sword..this is why the legions exist. But the legions can put our enemies down, and then we can spread the word of the Republic to those who would do us harm. To educate them in the ways of peace. Within the next five years, unless something severe occurs to interrupt the status quo, I will not back any plans to take more land from other men than I have suggested in my plan to end these wars. That is where I stand.
Avicenna
08-03-2006, 02:31
Senator Aemilius, since you are so afraid that Rome's military might is not enough to match some barbaric scum and fat, pompous Greeks, I propose Motion 9.21:
The first consul shall try, to the best of the Republic's ability, to restore all Legions to full strength while without going into defecit. This still means that we should have some profits at the end of each season, enough to continue construction of buildings and upgrades in our cities.
GeneralHankerchief
08-03-2006, 02:36
Senator Laevinius, I believe that the time for proposing motions is over.
Although I do regret that it is, since your motion was a good one.
Avicenna
08-03-2006, 02:44
My mistake, senators. I will thoroughly berate the Fedex staff for being so slow in delivering my motion to Rome.
My feelings, Senator Laevinius, in regards to the state of Rome's legions may be construed by fear only by those too disillusioned to really understand the gravity of the situation.
I have cast my vote for Senators Lucius Aemilius and Amulius Coruncanius. I have great respect for the achievements of the youthful Senator Numerius Aureolus and I expect much of him in future years. However, it is the Senator Aemilius' choice of co-consul that has determined my vote. Senator Amulius Coruncanius is an old friend of mine and it was to him that I turned to for counsel during the long march through Gaul nearly 10 years ago. He was the most competent and loyal Tribune I have seen in my years with the Legions, and I have seen many. I know too that Senator Amulius Coruncanius understands how best to deal with Gauls. He is the only member of this body who knows the horrors we witnessed on the Gallic Expedition and I am certain that he will make the proper decisions with regard to that vile race. Any civilized man can deal effectively with other civilized nations, but it requires true experience of the barbaric northerners to know how to handle them.
Senator Amulius Coruncanius,
We will continue to be at odds where the Gauls are concerned if you continue to preach murder, that said I would be at odds with any citizen should he hold any such views about any other culture.
However, we cannot look past the immediate for, as we know, much changes – no plan lasts beyond contact with the enemy – Go, retrieve our Eagle and burn that settlement. This I have come to terms with as being our only option for both punishment of the Gauls and to restore our lost honour.
Truth is we cannot capture the Gallic provinces at this time so we are reduced to punitive measures.
Yet we agree on much still, including the fact that we are a peaceful State who has been compelled into warlike action by the steadfast refusal of our neighbouring states to talk with us in a civilised manner!
Senators,
I have cast my votes on the issues before the Senate and the sticky problem of whom shall be First Consul. Suffice to say that I cannot vote for two members to be Consul for I see problems from it beyond that which can be resolved.
Our lack of candidates worries me even more than the prospect of a joint Consulship OR Consulship at the hands of an 18 year old!!
I pray that this will be the last time we have this issue for it is perhaps more serious implications to our Republic than any Thracian army in our lands.
Senator Servius Aemilius,
Time is now on your side, it will not be long before you can feel the steel of war.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-03-2006, 10:22
I have cast my votes on the issues before the Senate and the sticky problem of whom shall be First Consul. Suffice to say that I cannot vote for two members to be Consul for I see problems from it beyond that which can be resolved.
Our lack of candidates worries me even more than the prospect of a joint Consulship OR Consulship at the hands of an 18 year old!!
I pray that this will be the last time we have this issue for it is perhaps more serious implications to our Republic than any Thracian army in our lands.
I find your remarks on this quite strange. The sharing of power at the highest level has always been the fundament of the Republic and our protection from the tyranny of Kings. I hope we shall not need the services of a second Brutus.
Senator Servius Aemilius,
Time is now on your side, it will not be long before you can feel the steel of war.
Provided all goes well my chance to prove my worth in battle may well be right around the corner..not as glorious a start as I could hope for, but it seems until I complete my studies it is the best I could expect much of the senate to allow. My reassignment to Rome, according to my understanding, would charge me with the defence of the province as garrison commander, and give me an oppertunity to erase a local band of brigands that's been thieving from merchants and travelers a short way from the city gates. Policing the province may not be precisely what I'd hoped for, but I do as well understand the value of a significant education, and for that purpose I will do my duties as is deemed appropriate by the senate until I finish my schooling.
Always remember young Aemilius, that no matter what certain older students may say or encourage you to think....education is everything.
(OOC: yeah kids! Stay in School!)
Your words are not fallen upon deaf ears senator, though I already hold such values true, it is appreciated.
Congratulations to you grandfather, and to you as well Senator Coruncanius, on your success in the consular elections. It was a close decision and both sides were an honorable choice.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-03-2006, 19:35
Conscript fathers,
I see that this heavy responsibility has fallen on me once again. I will try to be worthy of this, the greatest honour the Republic can bestow upon a man. The task ahead of me is difficult, but with the help of the esteemed members of this house, and the help of the Gods, I will prevail over our enemies. I am greatly honoured by the faith placed in myself and senator Amulius Coruncanius by the senate and with the help of the Gods I hope to prove you made the right decision.
You know me as a cautious strategist, with an urge to perfection. While perfection of course is the domain of the Gods, I will strive to revitalize our nation and bring order to the chaos in our new dominions. You need not fear that I will go to war with new enemies. I have rallied long and hard for a strategic blow at Iberia, but this oppertunity has passed. If any nation makes the mistake of attacking us they will of course know what it means to face Romans in war.
To demonstrate this error in judgement to the Thracians, I have rallied my men and sallied from the besieged town of Segestica. The brave Legio I Italia Victrix annihalated the entire besieging army of Thrace. We took only three prisoners and sent one out to the east, the west and the north, to spread word of our coming and put the fear of Mars into our enemies.
https://img277.imageshack.us/img277/8510/battle11it9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Roma Victor !
Lucius Aemilius - summer 260 BC - Commanding Legio I Italia Victrix near Segestica
EDIT - I have included a complete description of the Second Battle of Segestica (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1209576&postcount=24)
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-03-2006, 20:13
A notice is pinned to the senate door :
Any senators with special concerns regarding their assignments or wanting to trade ancilliaries with each other, kindly inform the consul so he can make arrangments.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-03-2006, 21:43
Conscript fathers,
It is my duty as first consul to launch an investigation into the shamefull defeat of the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia, under the command of the Legate and Princeps Senatus Publius Laevinius, by the Gauls at the crossing of Massilia.
As we all know this defeat was even more serious, almost sacrilege even, as the legion abandonded the sacred legionary eagle in battle, incurring the wrath of the Gods on the Republic.
As my own son, the Tribune Manius Aemilius, was involved, I will be seen as prejudiced and have thus decided to have this trial take place presided by the honourable senator Decius Curtius (Braden), who has no allegiance to any of the factions involved in this debacle, and who has earned the respect of all the senate by his skill at 'diplomatic activities' in foreign lands and the eagerness with which he has volunteered for the most dangerous assignments. It will be his responsibility to arrange the entire trial (in a seperate thread), collecting together material for the prosecution and defence and summon witnesses as he sees fit. I wish him the blessing of the Gods to help him in this difficult task and will make appropriate sacrifices in the temple of Apollo and Jupiter after this session.
When this trial is ended, due to the extreme respectability and high rank of Publius Laevinius, he will present his verdict to the senate who will then affirm or reject it in their next session.
Lastly, I want to congratulate the senate on their wisdom in voting down motion 9.12. If this motion had passed it would surely have meant war with Iberia.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I would like to to thank those who voted for me in the election for their support. I congratulate Lucius Aemilius on his election to First Consul and on his stunning defeat of the Thracian army besieging him. All Rome stands behind him!
{Galerius Vatinius}
My congradulations to Consul Lucius Aemilius on his election, even though my own vote was not cast for you. Although I must say, you've put my mind at ease with your first battle already. Perhaps aside from your ignorance in your reverence of the "gods", you have a lot more to offer this great Republic than I conjectured. To a fruitful 5 years! ~:cheers:
Mount Suribachi
08-04-2006, 07:52
*looks at Tiberius Coruncanius, his cheeks are red, his eyes are burning*
What... *cough*...what...*splutter*...what kind of father does not vote for his own son in Consular elections???!!!??? Such behaviour is unbecoming of a Roman patrician! As Pater Familias, it is your duty to support your family in all things - yet you have gone against the will of Jupiter and voted for a boy, a child! to be consul, ahead of your own son. Words fail me to describe my feelings of disgust right now. Thankfully the will of Jupiter is no so easily subverted and I now sit as co-consul.
*deep breath*
Lucius Aemilius, I congratulate you on the auspicious start to your consulship.
A victory of heroic quality to start a Consulship off is outstanding Co-Consul. Despite my misgivings about the elections, as a true Roman, I will support you with my last drop of blood safe in the knowledge that you pursue the best course for our Republic.
I will open up the Military Hearing to investigate the actions of Senator Publius Laevinius immediately and the first order of the day is to seek out any first hand accounts of the battle, for which I will be calling your son Tribune Manius Aemilius before me shortly.
Senator Decius Curtius, I wish to request a meeting with my father, Manius Aemilius, before he is brought to this trial. I feel that more information may be obtained from him through a quiet, family meeting with me than through the direct pressures of legal proceedings. We are all aware that my father is not...stable, but he has always been more at ease with his family than with others.
Mind you, senator, I will be willing to attend these proceedings and relay all information my father provides. I ask of this only because I fear my father's condition may place him in a position to incriminate Publius Laevinius or himself untruthfully without him having first discussed the events with his family, who could more coherently and possitively reiterate the information.
Of course you can, Manius is NOT on trial. Nor is anyone. This is an investigation to apportion blame for the loss of the Eagle and not a Trial in the litteral sense.
I have received written testomony from certain parties present on the day. I will be retiring shortly to consider them and see if it is valid to call these persons to the hearing.
Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your irrational bloodthirst expressed during the elections had me worried, and voting against you was the best solution. Didn't work, so hopefully you'll pick up some sense before you make it to Gaul. I fear that your time as Verginius' Tribune has had a corruptive effect on you.
Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your irrational bloodthirst expressed during the elections had me worried, and voting against you was the best solution. Didn't work, so hopefully you'll pick up some sense before you make it to Gaul. I fear that your time as Verginius' Tribune has had a corruptive effect on you.
I fear you have spent too much time in the east, Senator. It is clear to me that Amulius Coruncanius is one of the few that understands the realities of war with the barbarians. With his election as Co-Consul, my mind was put at ease with regard to the situation at our northern borders.
Mount Suribachi
08-05-2006, 16:33
Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your irrational bloodthirst expressed during the elections had me worried, and voting against you was the best solution. Didn't work, so hopefully you'll pick up some sense before you make it to Gaul. I fear that your time as Verginius' Tribune has had a corruptive effect on you.
*snorts derisorly*
My belief that the Gauls are a thorn in the Roman side that must be removed is neither irrational nor bloodthirsty. Praise the Gods that they have spoken on this issue and Senator Augustus Verginius is on his way to Gaul to remedy the situation.
Conscript Fathers!
It is with great pride that I report to you the subjugation of the entire Illyrian nation (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1209684#post1209684). We have brought this race of traitorous barbarians under our yoke, nevermore to spill Roman blood our foul Roman honor. It is a day that I have dreamed of for much of my life and it was an unparalleled joy to be able to inflict this final defeat upon them myself. I only hope that I live to see the day when Gaul itself falls to our might.
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/illyria_destroyed.jpg
Mount Suribachi
08-05-2006, 17:27
Conscript Fathers, the elimination of the Ilyrians fills me with pride and satisfaction. I still feel the pain and anger of their treachery - what where they thinking? So long we tried to help them, so long we were prepared to spend Roman blood and treasure in order to keep an independant Ilyrian state.
And how did they repay us? With a treacherous surprise attack! Well, now they are reaping the rewards of their treachery.
As well as satisfaction at the reduction of such an enemy, I am doubly pleased at the improvement to our strategic situation as a result. We have one less enemy to worry about, but even more importantly we now have a continuous land link between Italia and our Greek holdings. No longer are we reliant upon the good graces of Neptune for our communications and supply. And to a General in the Greek theatre of operations like myself, this is no small thing.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-07-2006, 09:54
Senators,
It is now winter 260 BC and things are going well.
Illyria has been destroyed. Greece is now completely under our control and the way is clear for the invasion of Greek-held Crete. The Thracians are being held at bay, but showed they could fight a lot better than the Gauls in the Third Battle of Segestica (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1209595&postcount=25).
The Macedonians are not going to give up without a fight and attacked my co-consul Amulius Coruncanius with all the troops they could field, forcing him to fight a fighting retreat. We lost a lot of troops in the First battle of Bylazora (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1209978&postcount=27), but fortunately few Roman troops were lost.
In other news, Manius Aemilius is on his way to Rome to testify and should arrive this winter. Publius Laevinius and the reinforced Legio III Sicilia Aemilia were attacked on Gaul territory, and unwilling to fight, retreated to Massilia in good order. Publius Laevinius will be relieved of command in two seasons by Marcellus Aemilius and then he will travel to Rome to stand trial.
A detailed account can be read in my Preliminary report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1208590&postcount=16).
{Galerius Vatinius}
I can't say I'm thrilled about Consul Coruncanius' decision to pull back. I don't know how much that says about Rome's honour. The fight was a winnable one, or has Rome's power decreased in our own eyes so much so that we should think it wasn't? It seems these problems at home are affecting the troops and leaders in the field. I hope for a swift resolution to this and request transfer to Rome to defend my client, Publius Laevinius, properly upon his arrival.
Mount Suribachi
08-07-2006, 11:39
Nor was I thrilled to withdraw - in my first battle as a general no less!
However, Rome's Legions are stretched very very thinly right now. Legio VI has only just been reinforced up to something approaching a viable fighting force. Perhaps I could have won the battle, but the 6th would have been crippled in the process. How then to occupy the 3 remaining Macedonian cities when we have no troops with which to assault and hold them?
Furthermore, given the current situation, as soon as Macedon recruits troops they are at the front line! Whereas any reinforcements I receive must come all the way from Italia, at a time when every Legion needs more cohorts. Finally, the last instruction I received in my despatch from Consul Lucius Aemelius was "don't get yourself killed".
I must husband the 6th, and wait for when the time is right before going to battle.
So yes, I may have fought a glorious battle and won the day, but to what end? So my shattered Legion could be swept away by a Macedonian counter-attack?
If only my mercenaries and cavalry had a bit more discipline the withdrawal would have been an unqualified success. As it was they lost nearly twice as many troops as I did.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-07-2006, 11:41
Senators,
I feel I need to support the decision of my co-consul Amulius Coruncanius to make a fighting retreat. These were not barbarians, but crack hoplites led by a famous general. To try to win a victory against the huge odds stacked against him would have been insane. The rout of his auxilia units was very unfortunate, but the blame lies with those cowards, not the general himself.
In the near future I will reinforce his legion up to Consular Army strength and then I am confident Amulius Coruncanius will crush the Macedonians.
I commend Consul Amulius Coruncanius for his decision to refuse battle with the Macedonians. It is easy for those who have not led men in the field to criticize such decisions, but those of us who have fought the Greeks and Macedonians understand the nature of such warfare. I fully agree that Consul Amulius Coruncanius may well have been able to win the battle, but would it have been worth the cost?
Civilized men do not fight like barbarians. Macedon, even crippled as it is, fields well armed, well armored, and well trained men. They can be defeated just as any other men, but they require a cost far larger than the nearly naked hordes from the north. Our Legions are still recovering their strength and it would be a great setback if the rebuilt Legio VI lost as much of its numbers in that battle as Legio II had lost in its battles under my command. It is the sign of a good commander that he knows when it is best to fight and when it is best to withdraw. Surely the decision would have been different if the Macedonians were driving on our cities and Legio VI was the last barrier. However that was not the case, the Republic was on the offensive and we found ourselves at a significant disadvantage. I praise Consul Amulius Coruncanius for taking the difficult decision to yield the field to the Macedonians. Victory in war can take many forms.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The Republic has acted wisely both in Amulius Coruncanius's fighting withdrawal and in ordering Publius Laevinus's retreat to Massilia. I confess I was alarmed at the situation in late Autumn - it seemed we were facing two serious defeats, but the First Consul has deftly avoided these. Both fronts need urgent reinforcements but I am glad to hear this matter is in hand.
Mount Suribachi
08-07-2006, 13:08
I thank the noble senators for their support on this issue
*bows*
{Galerius Vatinius}
Fah! Pah! And pish-posh! This is the talk of old men and I shall leave you to it. Conserve all you can fellow Senators, whilst the rest of the world speaks lowly of us. They think us weak! While you hold back, they are surely pooling their forces and will strike us if not first struck. In any case, the man is Consul for a reason and you all seasoned Senators as well, and if you want to stand back and watch our enemies grow, so be it.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-07-2006, 15:59
Altough the tone of Galerius Vatinius may not please all of us, he does have a point. Our frontlines are very far away while Macedon's are right next door as Consul Coruncanius pointed out. We cannot wait long to strike a decisive blow to Macedonia, or they will regain their strength and push us back. Accordingly we will strike once more within two seasons, this time with a consular strength army.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Aha! Hear hear, Consul Aemilius, I'll have a drink to that! I support you fully, and hell if need be I'll be a grunt on the frontlines, haha! Maybe then I won't take so much cow-dung about "inexperience" this or "bad decisions" that. Come on all you old men, this round is on me! ~:cheers:
I must commend senator Amulius Coruncanius for his decisions. His actions are wise and I respect his decision to try a fighting withdrawal.
Mount Suribachi
08-07-2006, 18:54
Consul Aemilius, I find your mention of invasion of the remaining Greek islands intrueging.
It presents us with an interesting tactical and strategic situation - one we have not discussed in this house. There are valid arguments for and against such an invasion.
For:
It finally removes the Greeks as an enemy, no more to be worried about
It adds more cities - wealthy ones too I believe - to our Republic
Against:
The Greeks are no longer a serious threat to us. We can come back at any point in the future and finish them off as the strategic situation permits
It requires a diversion of at least a Legion to perform the invasion and subdue the populace at a time when every cohort is needed in Macedon, Thrace and Cisalpine Gaul.
Perhaps an alternative would be to use our fleet to blockade their remaining ports, depriving them of the income they need to rebuild their armies whilst we focus elsewhere.
Of course, you are the First Consul, and as there are no Senate motions regarding this issue you are free to do as you please. Nor am I disagreeing with your decision to launch a decisive invasion. I am merely curious to hear how the house feels on this issue, and your own reasoning - purely as a point of personal intrest
OOC: save game uploaded http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/260win2.zip
And the sally from Pella was 46 v 61, 1 lost 61 killed
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-07-2006, 19:09
Consul Aemilius, I find your mention of invasion of the remaining Greek islands intrueging.
...
It requires a diversion of at least a Legion to perform the invasion and subdue the populace at a time when every cohort is needed in Macedon, Thrace and Cisalpine Gaul.
...
That is correct, co-consul Coruncanius.
The Legio V will arrive in Greece this winter and will then proceed to reinforce us at the border. With the current reinforcements on the way we should be able to field four legions at the Thrace-Macedon border next season, which should be enough. That leaves the Greece garrison legion free for this invasion. After scouting with the Eastern fleet I feel confident an invasion will be succesfull. After this expedition the legion would return to Greece.
You are correct that Greece is no strategic threat to us at the moment, but I have grown tired of their stubborness in refusing to admit defeat. Before midtem, all the nations of Greece will have fallen, if I have my way.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Down with the Greeks! Down with the Greeks! Let me at them Consul, let me at those damned pesky Greeks, with their "philosophers" and their pompous white togas!... Ah, uh, no offense to you fine Senators and your lovely garments, ehem.
Senator Vatinius...didn't you choose to study in the Greek acadamy at their former colony of Syracuse? I'm a little confused then, as to your sudden outspokenness against them. Personally, as well, I feel eradicating the Greeks entirely by taking the last of their remaining islands now could put us too far within the realm of Ptolemaic or Seleucid interests. If it is to be done, I advise it be done cautiously and with the utmost consideration of all possible scenarios. However, I stand by my original proposal to secure the core of the Macedonian and Greek mainland before thinking anything of expansion into the outlieing islands or the Ptolemaic/Seleucid territories.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Choose to be here? Oh Servius, you truly are a product of your crazy father. My father is stationed in a fort just north of Syracuse, and so I was born and raised around here. However, I will soon be in Rome to make your acquaintance personally...
Senator Vatinius your continual defamatory remarks regarding my family are most unbecoming of someone of senatorial status. My father's condition is well known and the senate does not need to be continually reminded. Furthermore your accusations that I may suffer from his afflictions as well are most troubling. I do not, and the entire body of this senate could assure you, I do not, suffer from my father's ills. You can rest completely assured senator, that one, single more outburst from you in regards to my family will earn you no place of honor in this senate.
Not only this but I distinctly remember you requesting to be placed in Syracuse for your education..ah..yes, and bragging about how much the people of Syracuse did love you so, and how comfortable Syracuse was. What was it that you said...oh yes, I remember.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I realize that I speak these words from the comfort of my residence in Syracuse, but I have been feeling quite poorly and Chrysippus, the genius that is my tutor and mentor has suggested I might find the climate here more to my benefit. Also, the Academy here is renowned and you can rest assured when I am ready, my duty to Rome will be fulfilled as best as possible. Why the plebs are already fond of me, as I often travel to Rome for the games and can also be seen attending events at the Odeon here in Syracuse. They absolutely love me!...
Do you wish to continue these petty games senator...or will your 'genius' mentor pull you down from your high horse and hand you a dose of wisdom?
{Galerius Vatinius}
Shh shh, Senator, no need to get so defensive. If you are not ill, all the better for you and the Republic. My kindest wishes for your health *bows*. When I mentioned the people loving me, twas not only the people of Syracuse I spoke of, but also the citizens of Rome where I go to see the games as I mentioned. And indeed Servius, even the academy at Syracuse is comfortable when compared to life on the campaign trail, wouldn't you agree? And I suppose it's easy for someone such as yourself to get mixed up about facts so I'll fix that up for you. I did not request to be stationed in Syracuse, rather was advised by my prolific, genius, brilliant mentor. I do believe I already mentioned this but, I suppose such nuances are lost on some.
If it is games you want, I have them in spades. You must understand Senator, I'm not afraid of heights and my horse is just the right size.
I will not argue over choices of words with you, nor does it matter about who you think cares for your belligerance, most of what you say sounds like self publication and nothing more.
What intrigues me most is how no matter what the matter at hand, you always seem to somehow try to turn the question towards my father. The question was completely in regard to how you could be so openly outspoken and hostile to a people you studied under, lived with, and most ironically enough, revere as genius.. Your mentor Chryssipus..you do know he is a Greek, don't you? Born near Tarsus sure, but a Greek nonetheless. I am yet waiting as well to see some of your mentor's teachings rub off...stoicism does not eminate from you senator..I see only spiteful emotions and rage. So answer my question, why would you so willingly push for the eradication of a people to whom you owe so much?
{Galerius Vatinius}
I do not see any instance of turning the issue to be about your father in my previous statement Senator. Perhaps some of your own internal feelings about the matter are surfacing, but that is only natural. In any case, I owe nothing to the Greeks. Chryssipus is as Greek as my grandmother. He is here, tutoring a fine Roman now is he not? It matters not his heritage. Those pesky Greeks however have been refusing the Roman hand for too long now, as Consul Aemilius already pointed out. You must pay attention to the Consul, Senator. Would you rather us bow down to them for all we owe them? Perhaps we should give them back their cities and denari as well eh? I am sorry Senator, but I truly do not agree with you about that. You may worship the Greeks for all they've done for you Servius, however as far as I'm concerned, and this Republic is concerned, Greece is a permanent enemy of Rome and must be eradicated as soon as possible.
I owe nothing to the Greeks, but in turn I most certainly do not owe them their total annihilation. I am looking out for the republic in the best way I know how..trying to keep us from becoming too zealous and placing us too early in the hands of enemies it may be very difficult to defeat at this time. In my sixteen years of life I have known not one single year of peace...if the exhaustion of constant warfare has not weighed heavy us by now...then it is surely right around the corner. I do too want to fight, but I want to do so, so that the fighting can end, that our enemies could be laid down and those who do not already contest us could be made as friends, at least for a little while. I would be content with but one year of peace, one year where Romans did not have to fight and die against outsiders hundreds of miles from home, if not only so that when I have children, and they have children, I can tell them what it is like to know peace. And that the knowledge of peace at all can be passed on, the desire for peace after the war can be known, that generations of Romans after myself will know what it is like to experience peace, something that I do not know.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Servius, I sympathize with you but offer you this advice: do not hold your breath. This is Rome Senator, not Paxland.
Then perhaps it is time for a Pax Romana...I will know peace in my lifetime..
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-08-2006, 18:52
Spring to Summer 259 BC
Senators,
First the good news, legate Publius Pansa and the Legio IV Gallica have conquered Crete, but the the Greek Confederation probably still has at least one city at the Bosporus, Byzantion.
My friends, I have had to make a difficult strategic decision. The forces of the Kingdom of Macedon were increasing at a much higher rate than we could reinforce our own troops. They felt confident enough to send an army to reinforce the town of Philipii, to the east of Pella, which would threathen our eastern flank and make it extremely dangerous to march north on Bylazora once more.
https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/4629/amuliusfr7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
On a sidenote, notice the two Macedonian assassins wandering around (outlined in red). The third Macedonian assassin has just been assassinated by Placus the Killer.
This would create a very dangerous situation in the short term. We would have to win this war quickly or lose it in the long term. I decided to risk all on a do or die mission and marched the hastily formed Consular Army I, under the command of my co-consul Amulius Coruncanius, on Bylazora behind their backs immediately, thereby forcing the Macedonians to commit to battle or have their remaining lands divided in two. They willingly complied and thereby hangs a tale. Amulius Coruncanius and the Consular Army I are outnumbered more than two to one.
https://img376.imageshack.us/img376/399/amulius2uw8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
If Amulius Coruncanius succeeds in defeating the Macedonian armies, it will mean our eventual victory over them. If we lose, we might lose all of Greece once again. I would ask all of you to do as I do, and offer extravagant sacrifices to Mars and Jupiter, that they may favour Amulius Coruncanius in the coming conflict.
I will offer my prayers to Mars, that he lead senator Coruncanius to a sound and just victory over Macedon. This battle will be the deciding blow, may the gods swing their hammer in favor of Rome!
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I wish the pro-Consul every success. This is perhaps the largest and potentially most decisive battle in the history of the Republic.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Ahh, how interesting, how interesting indeed! Perhaps the young, rash senator knew what he was talking about eh? If Consul Coruncanius had chosen to fight the battle he was supposed to, we wouldn't be in this desperate situation! I do believe the odds are worse now than they were the last time they met. Tisk tisk Consul.
Senators, do not waste your time with prayer to the gods! Instead, bear wise words and advice for Consul Coruncanius who will *hopefully* be the doing the fighting! I must say however, my high expectations are somewhat hurt his last showing... all things considered, I hope he comes out of it alive. This is a solemn moment for Rome.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I believe you are wrong, Senator Vatinius - the odds are more favourable this time. Moreover, relative numbers abstract from two key considerations.
First, the pro-Consul now has a full Consular army at his disposal. No Roman general could ask for more and, dare I say it, no Roman general should lose at the head of such a formiddable force.
Second, I believe that the lead Macedonian army this time are led by a mere captain whereas before it was by a worthy successor to Alexander himself. This means that this time, the Macedonians will be far less deadly in their attacks and more ready to rout.
I would make a wager with you on the outcome of this battle, were it not disrespectful to the pro-Consul and indeed to the lives of the brave Romans now engaged in a bitter struggle.
Galerius Vatinius, I find you to be most unknowledgable on military matters. If you will bother to look at the facts, you will find that Consul Coruncanius now commands an army of 1214 men, while previously he has commanded one of merely 650. You will also find that in both cases the enemy armies are of similar size. On even closer analysis, you will find that a significant portion of the current enemy army is away from the main body, and that the main body is led by an incompetent captain. Should you be not completely ignorant, you will know that doubling the size of a Roman army more than doubles its chance of success.
All these factors contribute to a significantly better odds than at the previous engagement. I would consider this engagement to be of low difficulty, in fact. Ok, class dismissed.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Indeed I may be ignorant of technical military matters, being only 17 and still a student, but I am no fool. The last battle, the Consul was outnumbered by 1,000 Macedonians. Now he faces over 2,000 more Macedonians than his own forces. Does this not translate into any worse conditions? Or perhaps, militarily speaking, numbers hold no significance. The Roman army's size may be indeed doubled, but apparently you've failed to notice that the Macedonian army has more than doubled as well, or does that not make them more than twice as powerful? The same general who lead their previous army we ran from will be in this battle as well, it matters not if he arrives a short time after the battle has begun. There will even be a second general this time around, making it worse than just one like last time. Let us be reasonable Senators, no need to attack me because of your personal feelings towards me. The numbers are right there in front of you. Denying them only makes you look foolish.
No, Senator Vatinius, argueing the knowledgeable and well experienced opinions of older senators makes you look foolish. This battle is far more favorable to us than the previous one, but gods forbid, ill fortune has taken its toll on us before.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-08-2006, 23:19
It is my opinion the battle may be difficult. He starts surrounded already and will have difficulty using his major advantage, which is his mobility. The risk of being outmanouvered and outflanked will be high. His light troops might suffer many casualties if the enemy brings many missile units. The terrain, as is often the case, may be more decisive than the skills of the respective generals. In short, nothing is certain in war, and no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
OCC :
In case you are curious, the savegame :
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/259-sprsum-1.zip
Senator Vatinius, either you need more schooling in arithmetic, or you have misread the reported numbers. Consul Coruncanius now faces a total enemy force of 2058, in detachments of 1157, 142, and 759. He commands 1214 men. The difference is 844, not 2000 as you say. He is outnumbered by about 2 to 3, which is not that bad, especially since he outnumbers each piece of the enemy army.
OOC: Woops, didn't see the numbers clearly, the image was a bit small and distorted. Well screw you guys anyway! lol
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-08-2006, 23:54
The interim report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1208590&postcount=16) to the senate has been updated to present day. Three important things have happened that have not yet been mentioned in the senate :
1. We have two new spies and an assassin.
2. We have a new senator, Herennius Genucius, who married Tranquilina, the daughter of co-consul Amulius Coruncanius. He is currently serving with his father-in-law in the Consular Army I.
3. Finally, Augustus Verginius and the Legio II Sabina Quintia have captured Dalmatia.
On another note, it is my policy to let auxilia troops guard the towns where they can (now or in the future) be raised. Towns that cannot raise auxilia units should be guarded by italian auxilia where available. A minimum of two garrison units is required, four if it is a border settlement. Half of the troops of a border settlement should be italian auxilia. Does anyone have a problem with these policies ? In case you are wondering, we can easily afford it.
[i][NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, I doubt anyone would quibble with your standards for garrisons. However, since we are discussing the composition of armies, I wonder - now our financial position is now stronger than when you last took office, would it be possible to gradually train cavalry to equip our field armies? The Senate library indicates that a Consular Army should include one equites and one other cavalry (e.g. Italian or Gallic), while a Praetorian army should have one of either kind.
ooc: since in this mod, the equites carry the eagles, it might add to the drama if each legion had a unit of equites.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-09-2006, 00:36
I was planning on beginning the training of a equites unit for the Consular army I this turn. They are incredibly expensive to train and maintain however. The rest of the regular legions will have to make do with regualr cavalry for now, as we have a huge income, but we need to make incredibly expensive investments as well. Aquaduct, baths, goverment buildings, harbours...
Consular sized armies should most certainly bear Equites...where affordable I would be content to include local cavalry, be it gallic, greek or macedonian.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I've just received news from the front. Senators... it is as I feared... Amulius Coruncanius is dead, as is Herrenius Genucius, his tribune who had just married his daughter. The 6th was slaughtered. The Macedonians have a free pass through our cities in the area. Only Saturninus stands in their way in Pella, but the garrison currently in place may not be enough for the encroaching hordes. Let us hope reinforcements arrive soon.
This is a dark day in Roman history. I can make many points right now about this whole matter, in regards to previous arguments between myself and you Senators, but I will restrain myself... for the time being. Just know this; Galerius Vatiniius is no fool, and I have shown that aptly. I shall get the respect I deserve in this Senate. Now I will leave you to your deliberations senators... you all know best right?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: It is with shock and dismay that I read of the brave death of our pro-consul Amulius Coruncanius in battle with the Macedonians. The rout of our only Consular army is a terrible event, which makes the defeat of Legio III at the Massilia Ford seem small by comparison. However, in this case, I am convinced that no blame should be attached to the late pro-consul for doing his duty and laying down his life in defence of the Republic.
I am currently with Legio V campaigning in east of Illyria, near northern Macedon. I wonder what role my command can best play in avenging our defeat? Two possibilities strike me. First, I could head back and return to Pella, to join with Legate Publius Pansa. Alternatively, we could use a pincer strategy - I could continue to march east, heading for the Macedonian settlement of Ratiara while Legate Pansa returns from Crete to take up position in Pella. After taking Ratiara, I could drive south to Bylazora while Legate Pansa takes a reconstituted Consular army and drives north towards it. I suspect that the First Consul's first thought might be the safer first option, but I would ask him not to disregard the bolder alternative. Pella is walled and should be able to hold out for a while until Legate Pansa returns. I believe I can strike Ratiara soon - sooner than I could return to Pella. If the First Consul believes that the Consular army can be reconstituted under Legate Pansa without Legio V, I urge him to unleash me on the Macedonian hinterland. I will cut a swathe through it and begin to avenge this day of ignomy. Remember - the Macedonians also bled in their defeat of the pro-Consul, let me strike before they become stronger still.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-09-2006, 14:26
Senators,
I bring word of the crushing defeat of our Consular Army I. It especially saddens me to have to inform Tiberius Coruncanius of the death of his son Amulius Coruncanius and his new grandson-in-law Herrenius Genucius. All of Rome is in mourning for the 1000 dead. The standards of the Consular Army I and the Legio VI have been recovered from the field and put in storage in the temple of Mars. The full report of the battle has been made public as the Second battle of Bylazora (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1211755&postcount=28).
My lords, this is a dramatic reversal of fortune. The natural aggresiveness of my co-consul has gotten the better from him and he got tied down in fighting far beyond the frontline and was killed by a javalin. Our troops were demoralized by the death of their beloved general and lost all taste for combat. Our eastern front is laid wide open to the Macedonians.
Gloating over a prediction of Roman defeat is not the path to honor in Rome senator Vatinius. This is a time of severe crisis, it does not need the unrest of an ununified voice!
I have received a scripture from abroad, a copy of the speech Senator Coruncanius delivered for the battle. I would like to read it for the senate..
*Servius begins reading the script out loud.*
"Right then lads, this is it, no going back this time. Too many bloody armchair generals in Rome questioned my decision to withdraw last time. Said I didn't have the guts! Said the 6th didn't have what it took to beat the Macedonians!
GAH! What does some snotty nosed little teenager in the scriptorium know about fighting, eh? I've killed more Gauls than he's had hot dinners!
But still, this is your time, the time when the 6th writes its own story. Its days like today, victories like today, where a legion achieves immortality. Win the battle, and your children, and their children, in decades to come, will say with pride in their voice and a twinkle in their eye, 'yes, Paionia, my ancestors fought there!"
The plan is simple. We are vastly outnumbered, but the enemy is split in three. We must take advantage of this and defeat his armies one by one. The first engagement will be decisive. We must rout their first army before the other 2 arrive. Do this and the day is ours!"
*Servius stops reading and rises from his seat.*
This is a dark day for Rome indeed...but one that should be honored, we have lost over a thousand Roman souls and two of our own senators. If I may make but one suggestion today, let it be this.
We cannot shame the honor or the memory of the Romans that died at the 2nd battle of Bylazora. Let the standards of the Consular Army I and the Legio VI fly above the ramparts of the Colosseum in honor of their memory, for one seasons time, then have them justly returned to a place of respect in the temple of Mars. But I could never bring myself to watch these banners fly above a legion again. To ignore the sacrifice these men put forth by simply restoring the legion and moving on would be a disgrace to their memory, and a disgrace to the legion's name. Let the Legio VI, Consular Army I, have its immortality for the losses it has beared. They have more than justly so earned it. We must never forget their memory, but we must never disgrace their name by flying their banners over another legion. Let a monument be constructed in Rome in honor of the Legio VI, let this day be a day of national rebirth, a day to harden Roman hearts and remind all of Rome that even in the face of great adversity, the light of Rome will not waver, it will not be extinguished, Rome will not surrender. Let all under the banner of the Republic forever remember the Legio VI.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Oh yes, yes. Let us honor a losing legion. That is the way to Roman honor indeed! What is wrong with the people of this Senate? One moment, you prosecute a man, a fine man with a fine history, for losing a battle. The next, you want to bestow high honors to a legion for losing a battle... Perhaps had Publius Laevinus died at the battle at the ford, then you would have deified him eh? This is ridiculous! Instead of retiring the standards and the surviving men of the massacred legion, rebuild it! Give them the opportunity, nay make them regain their honor! Come to your senses already senators. This is a dire time for the Republic. It is no time for foolish actions and childish games. Come to your senses!
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: On the subject of the banners, I am not sure what the fates will decide about the Legio VI banner. Should some future legate unfurl it, it would seem curlish to cast it aside. The Consular I Army banner may reappear if one of our Legates climbs the ranks to become Praetor and then Consul (I would be interested to hear if any of our more experienced Legates have accomplished the first step already). Again, it would seem foolish to spurn the banner should it be raised once more - particularly, as the Republic can never have more than two Consular army banners and may be too small to merit a second.
On another matter, I am heartened to hear that Cornelius Saturninus (aka Mount Suribachi) has been prompted by the crisis in Macedon to step down into the Lower House. The general is in the eye of the storm at Pella. He is well placed to rally the shattered remnants of Consular I army and to hold the city walls should the Macedons try to exploit their recent success.
I propose that the First Consul immediately adopt Cornelius Saturninus as his pro-Consul. Macedonia is currently the key front for our Republic and it is important that Amulius Coruncanius is replaced without fuss or delay. The choice of pro-Consul is, anyway, that of the First Consul alone: we elected him alone on the understanding that he would have discretion to delegate responsibilities to a pro-Consul.
Mount Suribachi
08-09-2006, 17:56
I am honoured Senator that you would wish to bestow such an honour on me, but I do not ask for it. If the consul, in his wisdom decides on such a course of action, then I must of course accept, though I know not how the house would take it. Perhaps they may like to ratify such a course of action at the interim senate meeting (assuming I live that long).
What I do ask is that I be allowed to sally forth from Pella with all of the garrison, raising mercenaries along the way, and take on the army of Macedon to the north east. Pella can be garrisoned by the reinforcements heading towards here as I write. Having achieved success through the concentration of force, the Macedonians have now seen fit to split up their army. With my garrison I have the opportunity to take on an army of just 700 odd macedonians - and mainly skirmishers at that. The survivors of the 6th need a victory.
But I do not think Legio VI should be revived. The men think it is cursed. What legionary would want to fight for a legion that has lost 2 straight battles? How many Legions have lost 2 battles full stop? Let alone 2 on the bounce.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-09-2006, 20:35
Senators,
I take some time off from discussions with my quite hysterical battle staff to speak with you. First off, let me welcome Cornelius Saturninus to active service. His presence in this theater will be of great value in the coming year. I invite him to take the place of the late Amulius Coruncanius as my co-consul.
As to the banners of the Legio VI and the Consular Army I, I wish to say that no Roman army carrying either of those banners has ever walked away from a field of battle without leaving more dead enemies as dead friends behind.
Surely, they have been decisively beaten this time, but did they forsake their banners on the field to be carried around in an enemy victory procession, or stored in a heathen Gaul temple, as is (sotto voice *cursed Publius*) now happening in Gergovia ? No, they did not.
Did they perish against an unworthy enemy ? No, they fought bravely against the combined military might of our most powerfull adversery. This army did not die without glory and the Macedonians are not gloating or parading around cheering with over 900 dead of their nations finest men. Word has reached me that the banner is being looked after religiously by the survivors. The tales of the daring and bloody swath their commander, the late Amulius Coruncanius, cut through the massed ranks of the Macedonians grow with the hour.
I say we should restore the legion VI banner at the first oppertunity and honour it with the name Amulius' wrath. This will surely inspire the men to fight with zeal.
OOC : Someone help me out with the latin ?
As to the situation at hand, I take full responsibility for this disaster. Still, if we still had the blessings of the Gods, it would now be the Macedonians who would now be in dire straits. Such is war.
It greatly pleases me to hear to vigour of our commanders. All want to be the one to destroy the Macedonians. I am in a difficult position and will have to confer with our battle staff on how to cope with this strategic defeat. We do not have enough men for all the tasks facing us now. All I can tell you at this moment is that the Legio IV Gallica, the Legio V Alaudae, and the Field Army I will all probably be involved in the fight against the Kingdom of Macedon.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-09-2006, 23:42
In the command tent loud arguments can be heard and we get the impression of centurios almost coming to blows, then a loud voice is heard over the noise...
Lucius Aemilius :
All right, all right, settle down !
After hearing your council I've decided this is what we'll do :
Legate Publius Pansa will embark on the Eastern Fleet with the Legio IV Gallica and set sail for the Macedonian town of Philippi.
Tribune Numerius Aureolus will lead the Legio V Alaudae eastward towards the Macedonian town of Ratiaria, abandoning the Danube river crossing.
We will use this season to reinforce the Field Army I and recreate a proper army out of this mess for poor legate Tiberius Coruncanius. The horror of losing both a son and grandson-in-law in one battle, it doesn't bear thinking about. I hope he does not take offence at my order to wait one season before attacking...
But Sir, moving the Legio V will leave Illyria wide open to Thrace ! And...
I know, Centurion ! Legions don't grow on trees you know ! It'll be years before we can even put a single legion in reserve, let alone have enough to defend our borders ! My spies inform me that the Thracian main army has marched on Aquileia and perhaps if we doublemarch we might still get there in time to stop them. It seems they are ignoring Dalmatia for the moment and we'll just have to hope they'll keep on doing that. Damned pisshole anyway. There's not a hill path in the whole bloody province. Bunch of savages.
Here's the thing. In autumn the Macedonians will be attacked from the south by Tiberius, the west by Numerius and the east by Publius simultaneously. Let's see how they like them figs ! Heathen bastards !
The Roman Courier System is as efficent as always. Next night, encamped a mile away from a massive Thracian army, Lucius Aemilius recieves a letter from Tiberius Coruncanius.
You COWARD ! There's an army right outside these walls. An army of those murderous Macedonians, with the blood of my son still wet on their swords and you tell me to WAIT !?! You despicable arena dog ! We know you have a reputation for compulsive perfection and caution, but you cannot honestly expect me to wait untill reinforcements reach me and let those bastards pass by unmolested ? Think again ! I demand an army and I demand to attack !
Lucius Aemilius cringes at the each insult from his friend and then sighs.
He's right of course, but if he loses this battle the catastrophy will be complete. Yet how can I refuse a father's cry for revenge ? If one of those Gauls killed Marcellus, how would I react ? Has he lost his wits altogether already or is he hanging on to sanity by his thirst for revenge ? If he wins, it would be great for morale, but what if he fails ?
After mulling it over a few minutes, he pens new orders giving Tiberius Coruncanius permission to act as he sees fit with the understrength Field Army I. The Roman Courier System rushes the length of Greece and arrives in Pella...to find out that Tiberius Coruncanius has already left with most of the troops in the city. In the distance the clash of metal can be heard.
Ah well, the couries thinks, I'll give it to him when he gets back...if he gets back, that is.
We are cursed! CURSED!
Senators, do you not see the signs? In the winter of 261, a sacred Eagle of Rome, was been taken from us by the blasphemous actions of the Princeps Senatus of Rome himself! Immediately afterwards, all of Thrace, a nation with which we have had no previous quarrel, immediately assaulted our provinces. We repelled them only to see the Macedonians suddenly push forward with massive forces, even when they have no resources from which to draw such an army! Legio VI wisely refused battle with this symbol of divine wrath, only to have unexplained confusion cause the loss of many auxilia. We put this behind us, yet then the very army that gained success against the Thracians was inundated in an unnatural flood, killing nearly 100 of Rome's finest soliders. We passed this off without a thought like the others. Four warnings of the most dire nature, all of an unnatural origin. Then, to make us understand, the Gods saw fit to strike down the strongest army of Rome and our own pro-Consul, a man who himself was incredibly devout!
We are cursed and if we do not appease the Gods the results may well be unbearable. Shall we wait until Romulus himself descends from the heavens to smash the Capitoline Hill to dust? We must act! We must regain the favor of the Gods immediately before any other disasters are brought down upon us in our disgrace!
I demand an emergency session of the Senate to consider this matter and to determine the proper actions that must be taken! We must ask Pontifex Maximus Numerius Aureolus to consult the scrolls to determine if it is truly the loss of the sacred Eagle which has brought Romulus' own wrath down upon us. If the answer is yes, we must divert all actions to immediately returning the Eagle to its proper place and removing the blasphemy inflicted on the city of Romulus. We must refrain from all offensive actions except those which are themselves taken in defense of our provinces until this is accomplished. If we continue to push forward with the displeasure of the Gods upon us, we will wish we were under the yoke of Brennus, whose actions will seem reasonable and just in comparison!
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-09-2006, 23:57
I agree with everything Augustus Verginius has said. It is clear a divine curse rests upon us. Yet I hope we can postpone the senate debate to the regular sessions in five seasons. We should be able to regain the eagle within a year, if Jupiter provides. Stopping the Macedonian offensive now would be extremely hazardous, given the speed with which they can rebuild their armies. I assure the senate no other offensive actions are planned.
A Senate session would only delay things further. We have already decided what is to be done. Less complaining, more marching, Verginius. Get to Gaul and get the eagle back already! What's taking so long, anyway? Is it your unit that is lazy or is it just you? How do you even have time for writing this, you should be marching, nay, running toward Gaul.
GeneralHankerchief
08-10-2006, 00:13
We could be quick about this. I engage the Gauls, move to Gergovia, get the Eagle back. Then everything rights itself in a quicker period of time. What say you?
[SENATE SPEAKER]: There is provision in our constitution for calling an emergency session of Senate but it appears to fall entirely within my discretion. I would only call one if a clear majority of Senators speaking expressed this desire.
If the purpose of the session is to call a halt to offensive operations in the east, I cannot see many Senators agreeing to that, given that they currently seem to be clambering over themselves in their eagerness to have at the enemy.
However, I will listen to other voices and act according to the perceived will of the Senate.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-10-2006, 00:24
We could be quick about this. I engage the Gauls, move to Gergovia, get the Eagle back. Then everything rights itself in a quicker period of time. What say you?
You will definitely be involved, but I am under orders of the senate
Motion 9.2: Before making any attempt to recover the Eagle at Gergovia, Legio III (Laevinius' former legion) is to be reinforced to full strength and commanded by Augustus Verginius, with Marcellus Aemilius as Tribune once he has completed school.
OOC : I expect the Iberians to attack quickly after that, so no fear about battles. Fear about surviving would be more appropriate I suspect :laugh4:
I only suggested a hault to offensive operations in the East due to the risk of incurring further divine wrath. I am not a priest though and this is mere speculation. I greatly wish the Pontifex Maximus' guidance on this matter. Does he believe the Gods would allow further actions outside of our borders if we moved with maximum haste against Gergovia?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I am grateful to the First Consul for agreeing to my request to be sent straight to fight Macedonia.
Before I depart, I must say a few words for the deceased. I mourn with Tiberius Coruncanius on the loss of his son. Amulius perhaps lived under the shadow of his illustrious father, but was just beginning to emerge from under it - as the pro-Consul and commander of the Consular I Army. Who knows what great achievements he may have achieved had he not been cut down in his prime?
And I feel strangely moved by the fate of Herennius Genucius. Here was a man who, although formally adopted into one of the leading families of Rome, had in some sense remained an orphan - not having been properly welcomed into the Senate. I never got to know him well, but by all accounts, he was a promising and decent young man. His friends say he was an occasional drinker... ah, Herennius, I wish we could have shared a drink in life. As it is, now I can only drink to your memory.
These are bitter thoughts, Senators, and Legio V departs in quiet anger towards the Macedonian settlements.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius inquires about whether the loss of the Eagle at Massilia has brought about a curse on us. Senators, this is a serious question and one that I struggle to answer, as my perception risks being clouded by my own personal desire - already expressed - to come to grips with our assailants.
But I must clear my mind of prejudice and do justice to the Senator's question. Is Rome cursed? I say not. To conclude otherwise is to ignore history. The eagle was lost at the end of First Consul Tiberius Coruncanius's period of office in Spring 260. The defeat of the Consular Army was in Summer 259. A review of the First Consuls' reports reveals many events that occurred in the year between those dates - most of them favourable to the Republic. For example, First Consul Aemilius began his second period in office with a heroic victory against the Thracians that is arguably the most spectacular success the Republic has so far enjoyed. Less than 600 Romans defeated more than 1300 Thracians, for the loss of only 30 of their number! No, I do not believe we as a Republic are cursed, although the Coruncanius family may wish to consult their own private augurs.
Senators, I agree with Augustus Verginius, the gods are playing a role in the chaotic events that are afflicting us. But their motives and aims are as yet inscrutable. Perhaps the trial of Publius Laevinius will tell us more? But for now, my advice is that we must endure these slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as best we can.
So be it. For my part I shall continue drive my men as fast as humanly possible towards Gergovia. We shall retake the Eagle no matter what enemies, disasters or omens block our way.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Have you all lost your minds!? What is all this about being cursed? This is the talk of scared old men! Perhaps instead of laying blame on the "gods" for being unkind to you, take responsibility for yourselves and your elected leaders. Raise legions and use them properly to destroy the enemy. That is all you are charged with senators. Do not waste your time quibbling over "curses" and "gods". I could hardly believe my ears when I heard a suggestion to halt all offensive actions in the east! This is madness! We'd be better off under the ruling hand of good old Manius at this point. As a matter of fact, I suggest an emergency session to elect Manius Aemilius to supreme ruler of Rome! Come on senators, you've agreed on worse!
GeneralHankerchief
08-10-2006, 05:02
Perhaps since you're so confident about what to do, we should elect you as Dictator-for-Life, Senator Vatinius.
My brother has done nothing to you and yet you persist on using him and the rest of my family as your own personal whipping boy. I find this very strange, as your very own father has amounted to nothing more than a pawn for his wife.
Nevertheless, I will not tolerate any more insults directed at my family. Consider this a warning.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Oo, senator Aemilius, I'm frightened! I've been getting threats for the past year from most everyone in this senate, don't think yourself anything special. If you cannot bear the truth, do not come within its reach. If you wish to do something to me, please, let be known your intentions.
Mount Suribachi
08-10-2006, 09:32
Then, to make us understand, the Gods saw fit to strike down the strongest army of Rome and our own pro-Consul, a man who himself was incredibly devout!
You speak wisely Senator. In the short time he was with me in Pella, it became obvious that Amulius was convinced he was an avatar of the Gods, to be used by them as they would will. And of course, the Gods use men with little regard for the well-being of mere mortals.
If Amulius was an instrument of Their divine will, clearly his death in battle is a sign - but I am not an augur or priest who can interpret these things. Who knows, his death may have been a blood sacrifice to appease them?
Senator Vatinius, so long as you put the interests of the Republic before your own, so long as you serve honorably on the battlefield, and so long as you promote proper Roman virtues, you shall have a friend in me. Your blasphemies against the Gods are your own concern, so long as you do not bring down their on others than yourself. However, I advise you to use some restraint in the harsh tone you take when you speak to me. I am not a young man anymore and I have no time for games. Others may make baseless threats against you for such statements, but I do not. You are too young to know it, but I have dealt with similar insults to my honor in the past and have been entirely willing to take immediate and very real action in my defense. I hope that we can continue to be friends, Senator, for you will find me a very unpleasant foe.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I respect your words and your feelings about the matter Senator Verginius. I do not believe I've spoken out about you particularly in the past, but I shall keep in mind your statement for the future. And let it be known for everyone else in this senate; I seek no enemies, but I am not afraid of making any. I also declare my desire to lead the "cursed" sixth legion as most of you seem too afraid to do so. The "gods" do not scare me, nor their accursed curses!
I have recently spent a great deal of time speaking with an old friend from Masillia, one whose father had spent time in the legion there and, may Mercury have taken him swiftly to the afterlife, died there under Publius's command at that defeat. This friend has swayed my opinion somewhat as to what fate the banners of the Legio VI should have...and I feel that senator Amulius Coruncanius's last wishes should be realised.
I ask you today senators, will we respect the last wish of a man fated to die for the gods, and immortalise the Legio VI with renewed hope? Rebuild its ranks from experienced men, rebuild its morale with a competant and honored general, and rebuild its public name with many great and glorious victories, until the end of time? I think that both the senators and the centurions that died that day deserve as much. I hereby propose that the Legio VI, from this day forward, become known as the Legio Immortalis, and continue to serve Rome until the end of time.
GeneralHankerchief
08-10-2006, 17:21
If you cannot bear the truth, do not come within its reach.
It's called decency, Senator. You could call my brother Manius an unhinged loon and make fun of his poor condition repeatedly, but since everyone knows of it already it is not a decent thing to do.
In the same way, I could call your father, Titus, a useless weak-minded fool who shuts himself away for a week at the smallest sign of bad luck, and who is utterly dominated by his ignorant, sickly wife at every point in his life. I could also say that he is a foul-mouthed idiot who molests cats for fun. However, I do not, because it's not decent.
Please try to show some proper respect for your fellow Senators, Vatinius. My brother may be mad, yes, but he is still a Senator and is still your elder.
I will have no more of this talk of my big brother. If you persist Vatinius, I shall request my father to have you govern Melite for a while, in hopes that you finally learn to be cordial.
{Galerius Vatinius}
I will not waste anymore of my time with this petty argument. Say what you will about whomever you like senator. I shall continue to do so should the need arise, be exiled to Melite as I might be. If that is your idea of properly using our resources in a time of crisis, be my guest and beg your relatives to banish me. One by one, we will take down all the senators in this body it seems... sad state of afairs we are in...
In compliance with my uncle Marcellus, I would hardly call someone who tries to do nothing more than spread dissention and disunity among the senate a "resource", you're more like a liability.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My compliments to Legate Tiberius Coruncanius on his recent victory over the Macedonians who slew his son. It is a good beginning to the last chapter in the history of the kingdom of Macedonia. I wish the Legate good hunting in his pursuit of Argeos.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-11-2006, 00:10
Senators,
I bring more bad news, but first I'll inform you of the general situation.
Due to bad weather the Eastern Fleet did not manage to land legate Publius Pansa and the Legio IV Gallica this season. The Fleet did blockade a Greek battle Fleet in the bay of Thessalonica.
I myself and the Legio I Italia Victrix were almost defeated in a pitched hilltop battle (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1213132&postcount=31) against the Thracians, but Fortuna favoured us in the end.
Tribune Numerius Aureolus and the Legio V Alaudae had to hire some mercenaries and lost too much time to attack this season.
Legate Tiberius Coruncanius and his Field Army I have attacked and destroyed a Macedonian army in the Second battle of Pella (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1213087&postcount=30). He is still out for more Macedonian blood to avenge his family and is marching on twice-acursed Bylazora.
The Legio III Sicilia Aemilia have been refusing to engage the Gauls untill their standard returns to them (next season) or legate Augustus Verginius arrives on the scene. In the summer, the Alpine pass was wide open and Gaul raiders have, with incredible daring, attacked and captured Jenuensis, right under the nose of our new Cispine Gaul Legion and legate Augustus Verginius and his Legio II Sabina Quintia.
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2231/jenuensiskv4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The moment he heard the news, Augustus Verginius has leaped on his horse and the Legio II Sabina Quintia is attacking the Gaul raiders as we speak.
This is the final insult ! The Gauls will be crushed !
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 00:15
Jenuensis? The mainland Italian Peninsula? Occupied?
Senator Laevinius, this is the destruction that you have wrought. The Gauls are threatening Arretium and Rome herself!! They must not be allowed to survive.
While this incursion of the Gauls inside the Alps is ultimately the fault of Publius Laevinus, I wish Tribune Marcellus Aemilius had done more to stop them.
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 00:56
Alas Senator Coruncanius, I wish I had too, but seeing as how the already demoralized Legio III refused to fight without their standard, I could do nothing. Had they attacked but a season later, I would have met them in glorious battle and destroyed them, redeeming the honor of the poor legion.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Perhaps this series of catastrophic events is not only the fault of Publius Leavinus. Does no one else think it has anything to do with this senate dragging away a Legate and his Tribune from their legion during a crucial time? From the otherwise unguarded border no less!
Tribune Aemilius, how easy it is to speak of glorious battle, were it only a season later eh? If you wish to be a "glorious" leader at any point in your life, you would have found a way to make them fight! Instead, you stood idly by while our lands were invaded by the Gauls? Unacceptable! Perhaps you ought to be put on trial now hmm? Sometime I wish I had gods to pray to in time like this....
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 01:42
Oh give it up Vatinius. Legio III had neither its Eagle nor its standard. At this point they shouldn't even be considered a legion. A bunch of disgraced Romans and Italians who just happen to be armored and massed would be a better description.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-11-2006, 01:46
Tribune Marcellus Aemilius will get the chance to prove his worth soon enough :2thumbsup:
{Galerius Vatinius}
Oh, so a mass of armed and armored Romans and Italians mean nothing? They have not the capability of destroying a mass of armed Gauls without a symbolic miniature eagle? I call that blasphemy against our people and soldiers who go out there fighting and dying for our Republic. You have disgraced good men senator.
"Senator", Vatinius, I am fast approaching the conclusion that the only people you truly support or represent are the barbarians. I have yet to see you do anything that may cause anything but unrest in this senate. Perhaps you should do everybody a favor and remove yourself from this senate. Go lend your opinion to the Gauls, or the Macedonians, or any of the other barbarians that surround Rome. Jupiter knows it is not appreciated here. Perhaps we should just grant you the status of senatores pedarii.
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 01:54
You know, not everyone is a godless heretic like you, Vatinius. Symbolism actually has meaning to some people.
These men, good as they are, have lost their Eagle, which symbolises their Roman pride. Next, they are without their standard, which symbolises their status as a legion. Until the standard is returned, there is no Legio III. You try leading men without an Eagle and standard into battle, Senator. If you do so successfully, I shall admit you are the better man. Until you do, however... can it!
(OOC: Woohoo, our first mutual hatred in the Senate! I can't wait until we're all older and proven. :2thumbsup:)
You would have us force demoralised men to fight, and in that respect you would send them to their deaths, they have been beaten, broken, and dishonored, they would not stand against the charge of a confident Gallic assault.
Jenuensis will be swiftly returned to Roman territory, and I am currently, along with a number of close friends I've made amongst the garrison here in Rome, working on a draft for a plan to more efficiently defend the borders of the Republic from all fronts.
(OOC Edit - Beaten you to it Marcellus. ;-) lol..sorry, Vatinius and I have been bickering back and forth almost constantly. I will agree though, Vatinius and the Aemilii family are not fond of one another, it will be interesting to see where this goes later.)
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 02:26
You see Vatinius, no harm done. Verginius has purged Jenuensis of the Gallic force and it has been restored under our control. The only loss was a couple hundred Gauls, and that shouldn't even be counted under the "losses" column.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Phoo! You Aemilii are all the same. Servius, you show your brightness more and more with every opening of your mouth. Indeed, I who call for the extermination of Gauls and Greeks and all the other enemies of Rome am secretly a sympathizer for all their causes! Yes, you've got it! And Marcellus, let it be known that I have won a victory without any standard in sight! I sent a courier with the battle report, you should go have a look in the records. I suppose, in your words, I am the better man?
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 02:31
I meant against a proper enemy force, instead of just a rabble of bandits. For I too, have destroyed a group of them hanging around near Rome. I just didn't glorify it with a special report as did you.
I'm starting to get a headache from all this noisy bickering. Just who let all these children into the Senate, I wonder.
{Galerius Vatinius}
A battle report is standard order Marcellus. If you do not have the habit of following orders, you may not have much of a military career ahead. Senator Coruncanius, us "children" are the future of this Republic, do not forget. You were once a child were you not? Surely you can sympathize with flustering emotions and strong words?
GeneralHankerchief
08-11-2006, 03:02
I will say one thing and then retire.
A report for especially epic battles is standard order. A full report detailing how you and two Italian units slaughtered a group of bandits is unnecessary. Next time you could just report the result to my father.
{Galerius Vatinius}
It was your father who asked for the report. If you wish to argue his policies, do so without trying to undermine my achievements.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-11-2006, 11:08
All senate members are allowed to post battle reports of all battles, great or small. How will our young soldiers learn about our current enemies otherwise ? While I care not for the blashphemous Galerius Vatinius, he fought that battle quite well and I hope my sons study his tactics and stay uncontaminated by his low morals.
{Galerius Vatinius}
Indeed, study my tactics young senators! Haha, come on now, let's have a drink to celebrate our recent victories shall we? It's on me!
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-11-2006, 15:20
Rebellious Greeks have found a new way to strike at their Roman 'opressor'. Crowds are jeering in Corinth when governor Laevinius passes :
Decius is a bastard ! Decius is a bastard !
They say you take after your father, you sure have Manius's good looks !
The Senate is filled with gossiping comparisons:
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/260/publius_laevinus_260.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/260/manius_aemilius_260.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/RTR%20Senate%20PBM/260/decius_laevinus_260.jpg
"But he does take after his supposed father in his traits..."
"And in his hairline..."
"And his eyebrows"
Such a public disgrace is an abomination to Rome! According to the laws and customs of the Republic, Publis Laevinus should slay Marcus with his own hands and expel his wife from his home. To do any less is to prove himself a coward and a pimp, though I doubt if this could possibly disgrace him any more than he already is. Perhaps he would prefer to be referred to as Publius the Cuckold rather than Publius the Gaul.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-12-2006, 22:49
Consript fathers,
I bring you an update of my reign.
Unfinished Interim Report part I (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1208590&postcount=16)
Unfinished Interim Report part II (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1214641&postcount=17)
To summarize the important events :
1. The kingdom of Macedon is practically defeated.
2. The kingdom of Numidia, after a decades long war with the Republic of Carthage, is destroyed.
Gaul has been invaded by our forces. Legate Augustus Verginius and his Legio II Sabina Quintia are laying siege to Gergovia, where the stolen legionary eagle is hidden. The eagle taker Drustan of Decetia is holding the town against him. Tribune Marcellus Aemilius and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia are laying siege to the Gaul capital of Comata, where the Gaul king Segovax the Cunning resides. The remainder of our troops takes up position on the bridge.
https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/835/invasionne7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
I am leery of attacking Gergovia, as the Gaul Allies, the Iberians, will surely come to their aid, and this will undoubtably mean war with them. I have decided to attack Comata, but not Gergovia this season. This in accordance with :
Motion #9.13: The blocking Iberian army should be threatened with our own forces – our intent made clear over a season. If they choose to withdraw, the motion permits the moving past the force to engage the Gauls, if they do not, the Motion authorises immediate war against the Iberians.
I interpret this motion to apply to the current situation as well, and that it overrules motion 9.8. I know not all members of the senate will agree with me on this, and so I inform you beforehand. If the Iberians have not retreated by next season we will attack anyhow.
Legate Lucius Aemilius, first consul.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, I would also be cautious about risking an unnecessary war with Iberia, but perhaps you forget that Legate Verginius is a night fighter? As such, he could assault Gergovia without the adjacent Iberian army being involved. There would be no automatic outbreak of war with Iberia. If we merely besiege Gergovia, I fear a Gallic sally would precipitate war.
On another matter, Carthage has been strangely passive towards us since she was thrown out of Sicily and the surrounding islands. I wonder if, with her conquest of Numidia, she will now adopt a more aggressive stance? If we have not already done so, it might be wise to insure Sicily is protected by a Praetorian army and spies are posted near Carthage or other likely staging points for an naval expedition. ....Forgive me, Senators, having just read the First Consul's report, I realise that this matter is well in hand.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-13-2006, 00:20
That is an excellent suggestion, and I will ask my battle staff if it is feasible when they return from interviewing our scouts.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Thank you, First Consul. I am endeavouring to make myself less expendable.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-13-2006, 00:46
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Thank you, First Consul. I am endeavouring to make myself less expendable.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :2thumbsup:
{Galerius Vatinius}
Consul Aemilius, I ask you to reconsider committing an entire Praetorian legion to Sicily in the off chance that Carthage may invade. We are in desperate need of all the manpower we can get in our currently active theatres of war are we not? I suggest instead an auxilia army, consisting mainly of local troops and mercenaries as a deferring force should an invasion take place. They may hold off a major offensive until a proper legion arrives.
Death the destroyer of worlds
08-13-2006, 01:40
With the new legion in place in Delmatia (almost), we are within the minimum defense requirements, altough another legion in Cispine Gaul would be nice. I can hardly neglect our other provinces, especially with such a dangerous neighbour close by.
With the heavy losses incurred so far, we are indeed short of men, and the recruitement program has thus been accelerated (and mercenaries are expensive !). I intend to phase out the mercenary troops from Greece to the frontline, by replacing them with cheap italian auxilia. This will keep up a steady supply of troops for our Eastern fronts.
The Western front will hopefully remain quiet, but if we do get into a major war there, a massive shift in troop production to the West is inevitable.
Another problem is supply to Transpine Gaul. I have been shipping troops by ship, but we need to build more ships so we have a third fleet. I am considering building light transports in the Adriatic, so I can send more warships west and still keep up supply.
With the new provincial barracks it should be possible to fill all demands and create 'reserve' legions.
Note that a legion stationed in a fort will also reduce rebel and bandit activity in the region.
What we really want is a highway of paved roads all the way through Italy, Greece and the Alps, but this is hideously expensive (like most things in RTR). My priorities at the moment are, basic roads, farmland, unrest superession in our major cities, and upgrading buildings to our culture.
An example, a new goverment building in Thessalonica (which would really help with the unrest) would be 12.000 gold pieces. With all the improvements I've build and new conquests our income has risen to ca. 22.000 gold pieces. With recruiting and other expenses I am lucky if I can buy one such building.
I am building an aquaduct in Rome and public bathouses in several major cities like Syracuse. These cities should make us tremendously rich, but almost all have their taxes set to low due to unrest. Rome itself is a disgrace really, we must concentrate on developing it.
Servius Aemilius - Perhaps a diplomatic trip to Carthage should be considered before this paranoia over Numidia's demise turns into the unnecessary deployment of legions and auxilia to Sicily? Carthage seems to be the only of Rome's enemies who has been capable of accepting defeat, having lost Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, they have since stayed far from any aggressive action towards Rome. Pursueing trading rights and an alliance with these people could most certainly be to our benefit, and do not forget that Carthage has lost its former colonies in Iberia to the native tribes. Perhaps, with a little Roman encouragement and monetary backing, Carthage could be persuaded to re-engage itself in an active conflict with the Iberians. Food for thought senators...food for thought.
GeneralHankerchief
08-13-2006, 02:31
I find myself agreeing with Senator Vatinius for once. While it was necessary to activate Legio V from Sicily things have now changed. Something must be done about our African friends, that is certain.
I believe that the preferred course of action is diplomacy, Senators. Carthage has consolidated and taken over the whole of Africa. They are ready to turn their wrath toward another target- most likely us or Iberia. I do not think that Rome is prepared to fight a Second Punic War.
Really Senators, our diplomatic situation is abominable. We are either at war or have bad relations with every single faction on our border. Surely it would not hurt to have one friend, no?
Conscript fathers, the Republic is again at a crossroads. We face impending war with two powerful factions: Iberia and Carthage. Surely we cannot afford to fight both, as well as continue operations against Gaul, Hellas, and Thrace. No, for once diplomacy must win out. We must come to an agreement with Carthage. Come the interim session I shall propose due legislation.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.