Just a few thoughts

[Nikpalj]

Just had a thought last night after playing a FPS after almost ten years of FPS-related celibacy.

In the demo level I've played you have to clear out a hotel of a bunch of thugs and meet a guy on the other side, in the lobby. You go through a buncha hallways and rooms, every few rooms/halls you have a fight of varying intensity, collect weapons/ammo off of steaming bodies, collect bodyarmor that somebody somehow dropped or left behind all over the hotel, collect a bunch of "top secret files" that a bunch of spyes also apparently left behind al over the place in unbelievable spots...

After clicking my way through all of this and having a pretty good time because the beautiful level design and surprisingly smart enemies (remembering the Quake-era armed potatoes) I had a thought - wasn't this EXACTLY like a dungeon hack, just without the quasi-medieval close combat, goblins and isometric perspective?

And, hell, isn't all this "find another badguy to squash" motivation really, really primitive? After waking up from the wonderful, dopamine-induced experience I felt unsatisfied, cheated and quite dumb for wasting an hour of my life's time on this...

I mean it's 2006 now, 2006, after ten years I try out a shooter and it has the feel of a really smug & smart version of a 1995 one... What happened to all the creativity?

I think it's about time to start thinking up entirely new game mechanichs, motivations for players, hell - entirely new types of games. It's all just such a trashheap, I don't remember when was the last time I played a game that didn't, basically, entice me to play it by tickling my greed in one way or another... In TW you "collect" new and improved buildings and untis instead of the usual loot/weapons/ammo off of dead bodies, so it's also deeply greed-based...

It's 2006. and PC games are STILL in the "are supposed to be FUN" category (that being the ultimate argument when someone points out how generally dumb the comp games are)? We have hardware that can spew out unbelievable graphics and games are still not considered being an artform? How many more years before some (not ess ee ex related ) serious games for grownups, 10, 20, 30? Make no mistake, I'm not considering TW being "serious" or grownup at all here...

I'm 27 now, have recently returned to comp games after a 5 year pause (got my P-133 in 1997, but read comp magazines from early childhood) just to chek out how things are today and I find that they're exactly like they were when I've left them...

It's just so freaking sad...

I see these 10yrolds in comp arcades playing these modern shooters in my small town in a small country in Europe and my heart breakes from this - their wide, wild, glazed eyes glued to the monitors, them all shouting at each other, the noise, the music pumping... THAT's supposed to be "sport of the future"?

I mean, these small guys are growing up knowing NOTHING but instant gratification, no manners, no empathy, nothing... and these human zombies are supposed to have kids themselves in a few decades???

I better dig up a hole in the ground somwhere and fill it with a bunch of bean cans, because I have a feeling that by 2050 we'll have screwing, heroin doing, gun totting 10 year olds that'll shoot you on sight if they don't like your face and chew up police patrols for breakfast not just in Kongo or wherever but in, like, London...
And what will the 30 year old versions of these tiny thugs be like in that same time I'm affraid to imagine...

Sorry for this post you guys out there, but I'm just so bitter after playing this FPS demo last night that I had to complain to somebody (none of my friends are comp game playing anymore), and this looks like a forum where there might be someone who'll get what I'm trying to say, someone from my generation?

Please?

[doc_bean]

Okay, I don't quite follow how you go from bad FPS games to violent heroin addicted murdering 10 year olds :dizzy2:

I guess i'l just answer your two points separately then. First, shooters, the genre has stagnated. They're the gaming equivalent of big budget hollywood action movies. By the numbers, predictable, and pretty much all the same. I haven't seen decent evolution in the genre since the original Half Life (which arguably just took elements for Duke Nukem and Quake and threw them together). The genre peaked and is now just cloning itself because some people can't get enough of them. A bit like 2D action games these days I guess. It's pretty much the same with modern RTS games, which, except for TW, or all just C&C or warcraft clones (except maybe TA, but that's nearly 10y old itself isn't it ?).
Do not expect progress in games, it's an idle dream. Many people are hailing Spore these days because it's finally a game that is trying something new, it's also pretty much the only innovative thing to have shown itself in the last 2 years or so. Many people take breaks from gaming (I did too, from 2000-2004 approximately) simply because you get tired of playing the same damn games over and over again.
Games as an art form is nothing I really believe in, maybe someday. I wouldn't easily consider a movie art either, some are artistic, but art ?

Now, about kids in the arcade. Relax dude, kids played in arcades in the 80s, there's probably more to their lives than videogames. Don't fear for the future generations just yet :2thumbsup:

[Lehesu]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most FPS are trying to break out of repetitiveness with different features (invariably the weapon selection, although these are often much more similar than you might think) and set-piece level or design. Although the premise is often the same, I still find a well-put-together FPS to be very satisfying. It's not just the gameplay, but the presentation, and when a game pulls both elements off, it can be a very enjoyable experience.

[AntiochusIII]

Okay, kage, I don't quite follow how you go from bad FPS games to violent heroin addicted murdering 10 year olds :dizzy2: I don't think he's kagemusha... ~;)

[doc_bean]

I don't think he's kagemusha... ~;)

:embarassed:

This is why having a custom avatar can be a good idea :shame:

[English assassin]

this looks like a forum where there might be someone who'll get what I'm trying to say, someone from my generation?

Well I'm about 10 years older. You are right about FPS I guess (never played one after Quake 2, boring). But isn't this a bit like criticising a cat for catching mice? That's what FPS do. Yes, its dumb (do they still have packing cases everywhere?) Look at it another way, if the game didn't involve all that cheesey stuff you wouldn't call it FPS (Oblivion, for instance, reminds me very much of FPS, but does at least have dialogue and a freeform world to explore so everyone says its an RPG. Random packing cases do still seem to be a feature though)

And some RPGs do genuinely have good stories. OK, not Charles Dickens good maybe, but not shoot all the bad guys bad either.

I'm not sure why you considered TW not "grown up"? Like any game, its gamey to an extent, but, really, how accurate can you expect a simulation of medieval warfare to be when you are sitting in an armchair clicking a mouse? Or have you tried/looked at something like Combat Mission, which is a petty good simulation of squad level WWII combat that makes no real concessions to kiddie gaming that I can see. Its not meant to be military history?

I wonder that an adult game would look like? IMHO a main cause of your disatisfaction is that AI hasn't come on that much, and that's true. To be fair to games companies they allow for MP (sometimes) as a way to get round that, or if you have no life and a credit card there is WoW and the other online games. But if the AI can't react in inteligent ways to what the player does, then the options for the games designers are going to be limited. If you want a real adult game there's always chess?

As for game playing kids, come on, weren't you a git when you were an teenager? I know I was.

[econ21]

I don't play many shooters - I agree with EA, they are often rather dumb. And maybe I'm useless at them as well.

One or two I've liked though. Max Payne 2 was excellent - subtitled a "film noir love story", it lived up to the billing and had some really good characterisation and story telling. The gameplay - bullet time and all - was fun enough.

I really liked Vietcong - it was rather like living Apocalpyse Now or Platoon, albeit acted by day-time soap opera stars rather than Hollywood A lists. It had really nice varied missions and felt pretty authentic.

But I think what the original poster needs are FPS/RPG hybrids. Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are the two outstanding original classics in the genre, not yet surpassed. Vampire Bloodlines is a recent addition that equals them but is woefully under-rated. These games give you atmosphere, characterisation, story, non-linear gameplay, moral choices ... and the chance to shoot something.

[Geoffrey S]

For the largest part, you get what you pay for. Shooter fans want the same old, and that's pretty much what they get, with minimal innovation.

[Somebody Else]

What about some squad/objective based FPSs - it's a bit old, but Operation Flashpoint for example...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think it's about time to start thinking up entirely new game mechanichs, motivations for players, hell - entirely new types of games. It's all just such a trashheap, I don't remember when was the last time I played a game that didn't, basically, entice me to play it by tickling my greed in one way or another... In TW you "collect" new and improved buildings and untis instead of the usual loot/weapons/ammo off of dead bodies, so it's also deeply greed-based...


You've played Myst right? They're the only games I can think of that would fit your definition of non greed based. Although when I play TW I could care less about new buildings and units, it's all about the interesting battles for me.

[Duke John]

I understand you although I am not that pessimistic about the future.

There are small independent game developers who aim at a more mature public and their games do not have the "hold an ever bigger carrot for the donkey" feature. The Take Command series, about the American Civil War, are such mature wargames (TW can hardly be called a wargame (anymore)). Then there is the upcoming HistWar, Napoleonic warfare. Both of them appreciate history and do not dumb down their games.

R:TW will be the last mainstream game for me. Modding TW has been fun but I have had enough to calming the ADHD kid down and learn him how to dress like a clown everyday.