Scripted legion raising...

[Dayve]

After discovering the Res Gestae mod just yesterday, i was reading the forums like crazy and it looks to be a very promising mod... But one thing that caught my eye above everything else was the way a legion can be raised...

From what i can gather, there is a camp near to your main cities, and inside the city there is a unit you can recruit that costs a lot of money and takes a while to recruit.. Once this unit has been recruited a full legion appears in the camp near your city, while you can still recruit units elsewhere as normal in every other mod, you have the option to raise a legion from your capital city by recruiting just one unit which triggers the script...

Personally i think this is definately the way forward for realism mods where recruitment is concerned and definately something EB should include in a later build... Didn't Richard script it? If so he already works for EB and knows how to do it so it wouldn't even be that difficult..

:2thumbsup:

[Cybvep]

And what about the AI? I doubt that it can use this form of recruitment...

[Dayve]

It can... All it will need to do is recruit the legion... It's gonna be a very expensive unit to recruit... Possibly too expensive in EB considering the high unit costs, but the AI gets a big bonus from a script anyway so that wouldn't be a problem...

[Warlord 11]

I like this idea. Only thing, it will take up a couple unit slots. But in my mind, it is worth it. :2thumbsup:

[eadingas]

I doubt AI would produce this unit even if it could. In AI's mind - which doesn't see scripts - the unit would be way too expensive compared to its stats...

[Warlord 11]

Perhaps you could give it really amazing stats, but script-kill it when it is done building?

[Dayve]

But the point is man... You can recruit normal units everywhere, as normal, like you can in any other existing mod... The legion raising is just there as an option to make the game more realistic for the human... Like as the Romans for example, during normal wartime you can recruit legions piecemeal like you do now, getting different units from different cities, as there is no rush to recruit whole legions just like that... But if there is a problem, like if you begin to get beaten, (unlikely, due to the unchangable, dumb as hell AI, thanks CA!) OR, more likely, if a problem arises on the front lines and a legion needs to be raised in one spot and sent quickly to relieve another, then it can be raised in one turn, at a cost to your treasury and to population in your capital city...

[Ergion]

Could be a good idea that IA (and inclusive human player) only could recruit some diverses packs of armies instead unit per units?

In this way we can avoid the spam of thousands of armies of one or two units and reduce the insignificant battles number.

[Kralizec]

I like the idea, particulary for the reason that Ergion stated. It would force the AI to build full stack armies. In a Seleucid game a while back (0.72) I noticed that the Ptolemaioi frequently sent stacks of 3 kleruchoi agemata or other small stacks of a couple of elites, wich were easy to eliminate with surgical precision.

[Epistolary Richard]

The idea was discussed a while ago within the EB team when scripting was less well understood. The far more limited scope of the Res Gestae Roman pack and the tech developments since the original EB discussion made it a much easier 'fit'. That, and a couple of limitations that the raise a legion script forces on the mod, would make implementing it for EB a far more difficult task than for Res Gestae.

To answer some of the specific issues raised here, though:

- There is no technical difficulty with the AI using the same feature. The extra units and the extra money paid is all bundled within the script so the AI 'sees' just the same old original unit with normal stats and cost, so how often you'd want the AI to use it would depend upon what unit you associated it to.

- I really don't know what, if any, help it would provide to increasing the number of large AI stacks as here we get into the murky waters of the AI priortisation. Would they keep it together or would they split it apart to go and pursue different objectives? A question for the ardent researchers out there methinks.

[Kralizec]

Hmm I forgot about EB's complexity, I suppose that the combined factors of government, barracks level and local recources make for a dilemma here...

Maybe it should be limited to the factions' starting capitals? One issue with the current EB state is that units high up the tech tree are not available for some time until you tech up, while the factions certainly did use Chaon guards, elephants and other elite units at the starting date. Using a script for raising a standard, ballanced army bypasses this problem. If you tech up you can build your own custom armies with lots of triarii and chaonic guards if you wish.

[stalin]

I just tried the legion script in RG: on turn one i packed my starting army onto a boat, by turn 3 I beseiged and with the help of a spy sacked (And enslaved making sure that the population went only to my capital) Carthage, same turn i recruited a general with full legion and within 4 turns rolled over the gauls all the way to narbo maritus. Game over. The AI doesn't stand a chance...

[Kralizec]

Increase the build time to 5 turns. Simple.

[stalin]

or 20 since it is a 20 unit stack or maybe not

[Avicenna]

Yeah, twenty. Historically it took five years to train a legion, I think.

By the way, Kralizec: that'd be Rome, since no other faction recruits legions ~;)

[Dayve]

I just tried the legion script in RG: on turn one i packed my starting army onto a boat, by turn 3 I beseiged and with the help of a spy sacked (And enslaved making sure that the population went only to my capital) Carthage, same turn i recruited a general with full legion and within 4 turns rolled over the gauls all the way to narbo maritus. Game over. The AI doesn't stand a chance...

That's because Res Gestae is only a skin pack. The rest of the game is vanilla, other than the Roman skins. And we all remember how easy vanilla is don't we? Conquer 2 cities and you're rich, the Gauls recruiting only warband, Cartheginians recruiting only iberian infantry, cheap cheap units...

If the legions were in EB it would be different. They would be extremely expensive to recruit...

[stalin]

Well all the stats are changed for all units so the warbands kick serious butt now but the legion script gives the player an advantage in numbers the AI can never match

[Dayve]

Dood... Units route before they even touch your battle line just after you throw your pila... Just like they did in vanilla.

The scripted legion raising only gives you an advantage because the AI recruits warbands and iberian infantry, and both these units suck butt, just like they did in vanilla.

[stalin]

I play on medium battle difficulty and the battles last for 10-20 minutes with enemy units fighting to 10-20 % of strength. Dayve you forgot to install the last patch with balanced unit stats ROFL:oops:

[GiantMonkeyMan]

i always wanted scripted legion training, it was something that we of zulu:tw were going to do to simulate the way that the africans recruited their troops and the arrival of new regiments for the euros
the idea is sound, but for EB i don't think it would be the best choice considering EB's complexity and the fact that the AI wouldn't use it to their advantage like a human player would

[Dayve]

If the AI would use it to their advantage to give the human player a hard time then WHOOPIE A CHALLENGE!

If a human player exploits it then like i say, he/she shouldn't be playing EB. EB is for people who enjoy historical accuracy and a challenge. If you're going to use armies of triarii and exploit bugs for an easy game then you might as well just play vanilla.

[Scott]

If scripeted legion raising you should also be able to recurit a general with a legion.
There should also be somthing where you can recurit half a legion(and probally with no general) that will cost alot less and take half the time to recurit.

[Kralizec]

Yeah, a general attached to a unit of triarii would be perfect IMO. That way you can still hire mercs and build forts. There should be a morale penalty for such generals though, so it's still beneficial to add a family member to the stack (the stack should have by default 19 occupied slots for this purpose)

The only annoying thing about that would be that the triarii would dissapear if the general dies.

[Scott]

If you have a full legion why would you need merchs? A general should be with calvary not infantry. I think having it on calvary it's good for a few reasons:
1. You can quickly move the genral out of danger of emeny infantry
2. You can quickly move the genral to an area where your troops moral becomes low so you can ralley them
3. Good powerful reserve unit. My general does make a good powerful reserve that can always seem to help reinfroce units(escipally infantry) while there fighting tough emeny's and can be important in flanking attacks.

[Trithemius]

If you have a full legion why would you need merchs? A general should be with calvary not infantry. I think having it on calvary it's good for a few reasons:
1. You can quickly move the genral out of danger of emeny infantry
2. You can quickly move the genral to an area where your troops moral becomes low so you can ralley them
3. Good powerful reserve unit. My general does make a good powerful reserve that can always seem to help reinfroce units(escipally infantry) while there fighting tough emeny's and can be important in flanking attacks.

There is some justification for the general being on foot, however - tactical benefits of being mounted aside.

I don't think many people would argue that heavy cavalry is not useful. ;)