Yari Ashigaru or Yari Samurai [Archive]

Dexter

06-26-2006, 10:09

I have seen manny times "Ashigaru are weak units". Yes tis is true if you don`t know there strenghts. Do they have strenghts ? Yes they do.
First is there upkeep ... only half of the samurai ... meaning 0.5 koku per Ashigaru yearly. Think of them as light infantry. Yari Samurai are the preferd ones by manny, but they are slower, get thiered sooner. Yari Samurai are medium infantry .. they have better armor, and morale ... but you may consider that for there price you can have 2 Ashigaru.
0 honour Ashigaru is weak ... -4 morale to start ... but there is a hope ... a genereal who has won at lest 2 battles can lead them to wicktory ... he gives them +2 morale ... dont expect them to win when outnumberd 4 to 1. Anny region can be defended whit 4 ashi and 2 to 3 archers... The key is there formation 5-6 ranks deep holding the formation.
They become usefull when they start whit honor 1 have bonus from palace and drill dojo ... this means there morale is -4+2(from dojo)+1(palace)+1(drill dojo).
There ary manny more aspects to dabate but as whit any unit they should be suported... they never be the elite of your army ... but they can thip the balance ... for exampe Enemy has 16 units of samurai you have 8 samurai and for a measly fractoin of the other 8 units valour in kuku you can have 16 ashigaru. You vin by nubers.
This happend in the Songoku Jidai.
1 more, team them up whit Sohei, or No-dachi. 4 Ashi whit 1 Sohei 1 Archer can kill an army of 8 samurai units of which 3 are elite. Which are the elite ?
Most respected are Heavy Cav. Sohei Naginata Cav. or well used No-Dachi...

more to come ...:bow:

Dexter

06-26-2006, 12:50

Teaming them up whit Sohei gives them morale bonus ( 1 ore more if Sohei have high honour). An army which has 6-8 Ashigaru (yari) acompanied by 2 Sohei and 2-3 archers is hard to mach even if outnumberd 2:1. Ashi should hold ground and Sohei flack, archers should pik there target where the enemy has more then 2 units togheter fighting, or target the units whit low armor ( No-Dachi - weakest -, Sohei, Ashigaru, Archers).
The idea is to use them for suport. There streght is in there number.
Whit Oda you can get 5-6 honour Ashigaru which are more then deadly ... there honour is 6x2-4 + palace 1 or golden palace 2 + drill dojo 1 ... nice ...

sunsmountain

06-26-2006, 15:19

Yes the Ashigaru are powerful, especially since they scale in the same way as other units do with valour, so at high valour they are much more cost effective than other units.

Also, the hold formations adds a morale bonus if i'm not mistaking, which prevents them from routing too soon. Be sure to use No Dachi or Monks though, because when Ashigaru have 50% casualties, they run at valor 3/4 or below, usually.

Yari Samurai have better staying power though are slightly slower. If the enemy has monks you cannot get away with Samurai, but you can with Ashigaru. But cavalry will catch you anyhow! You will lose the battle in any case unless you can flank the monks and have high experience ashigaru so they hold. You'll take casualties but you can win with ashigaru.

In multiplayer it is frowned upon to arrive with ashigaru with more than 3 valour to start with. Because of the low price. I start to conquer with ashigaru straight away on the map.

Dexter

06-27-2006, 07:15

Sun Tzu teaches
" Force is the control of the balance of power, in accordance with advantages.
Warfare is the Way of deception.
Therefore, if able, appear unable,
if active, appear not active,
if near, appear far,
if far, appear near.
If they have advantage, entice them;
if they are confused, take them,
if they are substantial, prepare for them,
if they are strong, avoid them,
if they are angry, disturb them,
if they are humble, make them haughty,
if they are relaxed, toil them,
if they are united, separate them. ?
Attack where they are not prepared, go out to where they do not expect.
This specialized warfare leads to victory, and may not be transmitted beforehand.
Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made;
before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;
many calculations, victory, few calculations, no victory, then how much less so when no calculations?
By means of these, I can observe them, beholding victory or defeat!"
By application of these the ashigaru if used properly " Those skilled at uncommon maneuvers are as endless as the heavens and earth, and as inexhaustible as the rivers and seas." you may gain victory as "in battle, there are no more than two types of attacks: Uncommon and common, yet the variations of the uncommon and common cannot all be comprehended".

Sasaki Kojiro

06-27-2006, 08:02

The real problem with ashis is even when you win a battle with them you are going to take causalties, many more than if you used yari samurai. Sure, you spend less koku but you take more time training. You can't expand very rapidly because you'll have to stop and train reinforcements.

Yari Samurai all the way for me. The only real advantage ashis have is for chasing down fleeing units before you get cavalry.

Dexter

06-27-2006, 08:06

It depends of your playing stile ... as whit cavalry archer, some people love them, others hate them ...

phred

06-27-2006, 17:19

I recently played an Oda 1550 campaign using mostly ashigarus and musketeers and I was surprised how powerful that combination is.

I had never trained either unit in my previous campaigns so it was a bit of a learning experience. It's a nice challenge to limit your samurai use and rely mostly on peasant armies.

Dexter

06-28-2006, 07:30

Glad to hear of your sucses phred. By the way, ashigaru are a litle more than peasant.
In Medieval total war they are almost useles. Here the poorly traind peasants are to some degree effective. Of course whitout the help of the samurai there would be eventualy defeated.

Papewaio

06-28-2006, 08:48

Ashi in front of Samurai, the Ashi absorb, get worn down and run away. The Samurai ignore them routing as they are not samurai too, so they step up and fight a worn down enemy.

If you did it the other way round the Ashi would rout as well.

Dexter

06-28-2006, 09:23

_Maximus_

06-28-2006, 13:40

As the begining of the battle starts Ashiragu's approach to stronger units is interrupted by a fleeing! So answer to this theme is following> Ashiragu can withstand other units only with improvements of morale and valour! As a common unit they don't have chance to win or at least be of the same fighting ability or quality!

Dexter

06-28-2006, 14:05

Who sad you should use 0 honour 0 valor ashi ? they need a leader to gain some bonus ... but tha same is true to the samurai ... at least they engage the enemy. If ther honour is 0, and no other better units are in your army, dont expect much, as when 1/3 of them are dead they start to weawer and soon run away. I would not recomend using an army of 0 honor units whitout a general of at least rank 2. This bonus does not help much but at least the +1 honour is + 2 morale. Keeping a thight formation, not splitting the army, using high ground, even the weather is esential here if you want to make a stand. If you are attacking ... then at least die honourable.

If someone did win a battle whit 0 honor units; not sohei or no-dachi or cav as there morale is good or recive bonus wen charging, i mean yari ashi, yari samu, archers; and no rank 2 or higher general please le me know.

_Maximus_

06-29-2006, 19:37

When we speak about that,every upgraded unit can be good! With armour,weapon's,morale,valour! It is much easyer to look at the clear side of fighting ability! One on one! There you can see who is stronger! Yari could always get through with some general or upgrade! I think without that they are wery weak and they can not withstand almost anyone excepr peasnt's!

Papewaio

06-30-2006, 03:57

Not necisarily, as it is a matter of morale. If there morale is improved by a palace and drill dojo they stay and fight, meanwhile your samurai mey recover there breath, stop, and return into the battle. Of course thiming is the main factor .

Yari Samurai get all those gains. There is another part of the morale system, that Samurai are elite and that they ignore non-elite units (Ashi) who flee. There is no morale hit to a Samurai unit if a Ashi unit nearby is running away. However a Samurai unit that is retreating will cause a morale hit to both Samurai and Ashi units that are nearby.

Therefore it is logical to have you Ashi in the frontline, if and when they retreat they will not cause a morale hit to the Samurai. This will give a moral bonus to the Ashi as they have units nearby backing them up, it will prevent chain routing and cover the retreat of you Ashi. If you Ashi get charged down as they retreat they will be killed off and all their honour gains with them. The Samurai can stop this from happening.

If you do it the other way round and put the Samurai first, if and when they retreat it may spark an auto-rout to the Ashi, even if it doesn't the Ashi morale will take a dip and they will be far more likely to break and when they do they will be run down and wiped out as there will be no one to cover their retreat.

Dexter

06-30-2006, 07:07

I have to admit, that most of the time I use yari ashi as a replacement for yari samurai. Of course i have some in my army, but not in great numbers. I like to use fast units and YS are rather slow. Yes i they are good units, 3 times better than YA if there formation is used wiseley. But if you need an army of superior numbers ashi are the only way, especialy wen unit size is 100 ore 120. Then the training of your units will be double (120) koku ... Whit Oda you dont have much choice, as you are in the middle of Japan surrounded by enemys. To not wage a war on multiple fronts you need men. If you dont you just will be overpowerd by shere numbers. Even the mighty samurai will get tired and defeted wen outnumberd 10:1. Ok the first few times (5-6 battles) you may win. But wen Hojo ore Uesugi... (any clan that controls the northern provinces) sends 5200 men against your 1600 samurai, time after time, you can not retrain ore train units as fast as they can, as you dont have sufficient koku. You as Oda ore any other clan may controle 35-38 provinces leaving only 25-22 to the nortern opponent you will soon see that whit large unit size and poorer land you are in slight disatvantage. Building pors can help but at this point i found the AI attaking (after loosing 3-4 times attacking me :) ) my regions wia the port. Not beeing able to defend all my ports ( some 14-15) i started loosing land. This prolonged my campagne by at least 10 years. When the war ended and i cotroled all 60 provinces it was already 1613. Manny upgrades were lost on both sides, not speaking off men. While the ratio of kills wa for every of my men lost i killed 4.5 ... this still was not to my taste ... got anny suggestions ??? pls write it ...
And thax for your reply :)))

Papewaio

06-30-2006, 07:36

Mixed arms as always. Yari Ashi with Yari Samurai.

Let them attack. Some provinces are great to defend with. Rivers are obvious ones. Use Naginata and Samurai Archers, with Yari Ashi and Muskets.

In attack do not bother with missile units. Use a pure hard core force with your best general. Cav of all sorts and your best melee units. Send this force deep into enemy territory. Not to hold provinces but to make the enemy chase after the army as it guts the infrastructure from the enemy territory. If possible try and get as far north as possible and settle in a river province. Strengthen up the army and take over a corner of the north. Make your enemy attack your defensive strongpoints.

Dexter

06-30-2006, 08:07

Not a bad idea... but what if you clash into o larger better traind army ... this tactic works well whit unit size 60 ore 80 ... but whit 100 ore 120 you will not have sufficient men in your homeland to defend it ... you will depend a pilage to much ... then when theres nothing more ... oops .. negativ koku .... Id i unfortunetly dont like to attack anny of my allies, omly if we had a previos alliance which he did not honour, ore he attacked me got beaten and offer an alliance to save his caln. Usually i dont exept these but if a stronger enemy is gathering on the horizont then i agree. Sometimes the foo even sedns his forces ... wich will rout soon ... but not before weakening my enemy ... thanx foolish AI ... :)))

Dexter

06-30-2006, 10:12

http://www.answers.com/topic/shogun-total-war
here you can finde a breaf description of units and the historycal background ...

and yari is

yari is long its referred to as su
yari is able to transit from his intimate and personal space into an open and giving individual who has dedicated a portion of his life to creating an
yari is a tactical fixed blade
yari is known as su
yari is that it has a complete koshirae that is in excellent condition
yari is chambered to right side of body with arm behind the shaft
yari is all that is needed in a basic field knife
yari is very famous mountain in japan
yari is japanese mont
yari is also pronounced
yari is measured between 2
yari is an optimistic approach to
yari is the author of le canada et le conflit israélo
yari is the japanese word for spear
yari is preserved and it's importance is high in the skills of deshi
yari is a last nepali village
yari is deceptively simple in design
yari is a very long one
yari is a long spear
yari is a straight spear
yari is the last nepali village
yari is a japanese spear
yari is a generic term for all spears
yari is rather large and has a superb ji
yari is nothing more than a japanese spear
yari is erg fotogeniek
yari is normally kept sheathed
yari is signed
yari is a long bo stick with a short spear hidden inside it; the spear may be removed from within and used as a separate weapon
yari is planning to add large discount stores in his houston
yari is a tanged one
yari is seldom used as a throwing weapon
yari is one of the 100 famous mountains in japan
yari is geen betalende member
yari is the opposite end of the shaft
yari is primarily a thrusting weapon
yari is a very popular weapon among the bushi and it is common among regiments of ashigaru
yari is in effect on a unit
yari is actually a trident and mancatcher combined
yari is mentioned as being used in okinawa in 1624
yari is on the nepal side of the nepal
yari is a spiritual symbol of the role she plays on the hit tv series providence
yari is one of the most potent and elegant weapons in all of
yari is a long spear tipped with a razor sharp blade
yari is missing its blade
yari is about the struggle to make and control images
yari is a relatively easy route along the azusa river and yarisawa
yari is an excellent weapon with nice base damage for low level spear fighters
yari is 4 en was op het moment van de foto aan het vissen in het haventje van hersonissos dit is een hobby die hij samen met zijn vader deelt
yari is the last village before crossing into tibet in far
yari is replaced with a curved blade similar to that of the katana
yari is the friend that i know will always be there and i can always relate to
yari is japanese for "spear" or "lance"
yari is doing a better job then all of them combined
yari is appeased for the moment
yari is still ready to die
yari is a long metal pole with a blade on the end
yari is a spear that features a long
yari is a short spear about 17" long with a 5" head
yari is
yari is a powerful weapon that has been focused on since the creation of their school
yari is the beautiful protecting goddess of
yari is suddenly there
yari is a kind of spear
yari is a male bronze dragon
yari is shocked by the word she has to get her team to say
yari is a spear
yari is onze laatste aanwinst
yari is very cautious and doesn't trust people very easily
yari is five feet long with a six inch blade
yari is op 23 augustus om 3u15 geboren met inductie
yari is a very substantial instrument that endured many years of road abuse
yari is owned and loved by the spector family in israel
yari is a long pole with a divided fork on it
yari is an impressive rock spire that is easily distinguishable from the rest of the peaks on a clear day
yari is dead
yari is the film's editor
yari is a type of spear that they would use as the first wave of fighters came upon them
yari is really nothing more than a glorified spear
yari is one of 30 people in savannah whose checks were returned by the postal service
yari is in my class too

Drisos

07-03-2006, 19:45

Dexter

07-04-2006, 09:27

weird list over there, Dexter.. I even see some dutch in there..:laugh4:

Anyway, Ashi's are a big NO for me. I make sure I have enough money to train Samurai, by concentrating on my economy in the early stage of the game. When I still don't have the cash for Samurai, I just train nothing. I nearly always win battles at expert even when outnumbered 2 to 1 anyway.. no problem to have a few units less.

this is, because I despise ashigaru's... I remember that when I did use them they always ran before even killing 1 enemy.. probably my own fault but I just can't work with them!! :wall:
2 to 1 ... well not bad but try to win a battle whit 70% ashi outnumberd 5 to 1 ... ooops ... if you know how to use them you win ... if not ... well even your mighty samurai turn tail and run ...
I like the idea of playing a historycally acurate as possible. At firs it seemd not possible aspecialy the part whit ashi. The AI beat me on expert whit ashi ... how did it happen ... i was only outnumbered only 3 to 1 ... i had no ashi ... so i experimented a lite..
result ashi work darn good in groops .. they are ideal cheap and strong/weak support units. Let me explain ... they are strong wen holding a line (hold position hold formation) ore attacking the same way ... in large numbers they become even IMPETIOUS !!! LoL ... so no need for :wall: .... use them for flanking at first ... by the way just by surviving a battle and loosing more than 20% of the unit size they gain rapidly honor ... ever seen 9 honor asi ... o boy .... they rock !!! it is extreemly difficult ingame , but i had 5 units of them whit oda ... by the way ashi from TOSA OWARI and YAMASHIRO are better (+1 honor bonus) ... they are wersitile as well ... you can trick the enemy ... rout them then ( if you have a bonus from drill dojo ) rally them ... hehe the enemy seeing them run thinks that if ashi run all ashi will run, and if your army has more than 50% ashi the AI will charge ... abandoning his good defencive pos i cut them down one by one !!! even sohei !!! but as always whit ashi it is a game of :juggle2: ...
one more use ... crossing briges .. loose formation hold pos and form ... yes they die but that meens less arrows to kill your more waluable units ....

PS: have fun playing ...

Drisos

07-04-2006, 12:48

I never experienced a 5 to 1 outnumbering.. well perhaps sometime 5 units to 1 in a region where I did not expect battle or so, but never in big battles. I manage to keep my armies big enough.

one more reason for me not to use the ashigaru.. I often take a lot of archers and try to solve the battle from a distance. of course, the enemy has archers as well and will target me as well. I usually don't even move my infantry, as my archers will soon kill so much enemies that the rest of them will run away. though If I have some WM/ND I will position them more to the back to make the enemy target my yari's rather then them. they, as well as ashi take lots of casulties, even within a few salvo's..

Dexter

07-06-2006, 07:20

The original game (STW) starts in 1530 and all clans have already at least 5-6 (dont remember exactly) provinces. Now unless you play on expert it is (after few weeks of "practice") almost too easy to defeat the AI. On expert if you are "unluky" enough you may see Oda rise to a "superpower" of Ashigaru ... ok supported by cav and naginata ... wat i saw the first time suprized me ... 70% of his amy (all) where Ashi and he was beating me (how ???) ... (at that time i was not an experienced player) even my werry costly heavy cav and sohei ... well ok i did kill 3 for 1 lost ... but eventualy he controled more provinces and beat me :( .... so i decided to see how ashi work ... at first they seemd to bee cheap undesirable soldiers .. weak morale , always running ... until i found out that these "peasants" recive good (if not the highest) bonuses from formation ... there shere number is an advantage but they cost 0.5 koku per men ... so experimenting a lot ... and more ... and even more .... Warlord was releasd ... and more ... and then ... Oh my GOD they are good !!! well not samurai but whit carefull manuvering using anny advanteg ( by the way they are preaty fast units - light armor) they win the battle... firs i fond that thy are 90% copy of yari samurai .. well less armored ... poor morale( - 4) ... but hey YS have only 2 morale ... not too much ... and fighting sohei who have 8 is not a too good idea ... ok so i did learn how to beet YS naginata, cavalry (even naginata cav - Hold pos hold form .. and FLANK !!! if possible ore countercharge ... whit another ashi)... but the sohei still cut them down like a hot knife cuts butter ... then reevaluating the situation, and inspired from books ( all clans used ashi in large numbers ... they had either a spear - yari- or a shorther wershion of the japanese longbow ... these ahi archers where never as effective as samurai archers ... if some of you tried to use a real bow you know that it takes years of practice tho bee a valuable archer) i used them in high numbers 2 yari ahi cost is that of 1 yari samu ... so one unit holding the enemy and the other flanking ... soon wictory followd ... then i tried 1 to 1 ratio ... by manuvering formations and so on ashi defeated the sohei i hasd 3 ashi and 1 archer AI had 4 sohei .. ok so i did loose 3/4 of the ashi ... but who cares ... they are cheap ...
Still i must say a desperate battle can not be won whit them ... say you are outnumbered in the game 10 to 1 you having 70% Yari ahi and 30% archers the enemy having CAV naginata sohei and if sometimes No-dachi .... bye bye army ... still you may fight a retreating battle ... causing casualties in enemy ranks ... sacrificing ashi ( some 30-40% of them) ...

At the end it is your choice ... but try using them ... as support units ...
The best way for a newby ashi commander is to use them at the rear of your army ..
weaken the enemy whit your samurai ... when enemy`s and your samurai are tiered use the ashi to turn the tide ...

ewen better send 1-2 ashi units in ... the AI will shoot arrows at them ( less arrows tho kill your samurai ) ore he may charge them ... if you know how to make the enemy come to you even when you are attacking ... well then you are about the master THE ART OF WAR ( deseption :)))))))

Drisos

07-06-2006, 15:08

Well I'm not really a guy to say I want it to be historically correct.. I play the game in the way I think is best to win. I don't really need ashi, as I soon have enough money to create 960-men (samurai) armies in all 'border regions'. I don't need more, as my units don't rout so I can't use reinforcements anyway. and exchanging samurai's for ashi would not be too smart I think.

Well, I might try this for a challenge sometime.. pick a clan and train nothing but ashigaru. See if I can still win at expert that way.. will be hard for me I think. I've been looking for a way to make the campaigns harder for a little while and this just might be it. I will see I can find some time for this.. will write a bit on it probably.

btw.. I never seen the oda become really powerful. in my last campaign (description must be here somewhere in sword dojo.. I was uesugi so 'Uesugi' will probably be in the thread's name.) they did get large armies, and not that much ashi's at all. I think I beat them in 4 battles in total..

Togakure

07-07-2006, 04:05

[sigh] So much to say, so little time, and no energy for me these days. But interesting, and nostalgic reading indeed. It's nice to see such enthusiasm for this great ol' game.

In Single Player (SP) games, Ashigaru can be used to good effect, particularly early in the game. Pape has already described the most practical tactical way to use them in a battle. I also use them to draw the enemy out of position prior to an attack. On the strategic map, I find them extremely useful in maintaining numeric parity with my opponents at a lower cost. I am careful though, not to have my total ashis exceed a quarter, or perhaps a third very early on, of the total troops in a stack. If I garrison a province behind the front lines, it's almost always with an ashi unit--they're cheap, and just as effective in maintaining the peace. Combine one with a spy in each province and you can raise taxes to max and forget about insurrections. No need for expensive watch towers or border forts either.

Ashigaru were so powerful at high honor with weapon and armor upgrades in Multiplayer (MP) that they were eventually banned from MP games by the more regular and experienced players. I was told that one of the most devastating armies encountered under the control of a good MP player consisted mostly of super ashis and muskets!

There are posts in here somewhere where Sasaki Kojiro demonstrates how to use ashis and archers to defeat monks and archers. I remember he used to save a lot of replays too. Maybe he still has some stashed somewhere. You want to see some shrewd tactical command ... ?

It's really a pity that MP isn't happening much anymore--I enjoy talking about SP experiences, but I think the real bomb in Shogun is taking the field against a talented human opponent. Then, all but the most rudimentary things you learn in SP go out the window. I remember fondly, playing Shogun SP for five years and puffing out my chest, thinking I was such an ace commander. Then I found The Org, and met this cool dude Mimesaka Akechi, who coaxed me into playing MP. And I did, again and again, and I was hooked. And I SUCKED. But I watched and listened and practiced and learned, and I got better. Best of all, it was a completely new angle to Shogun from what I was used to in SP. And in was HELLA fun. A lot of that was because there was still a small but faithful and enthusiastic group of players going at it regularly. Ah ... hmm ....

Gah. waxing reminiscent ... old, overworked, under-rested, and it appears, really missing one of my favorite diversions. GAH.

Dexter

07-07-2006, 06:58

Multipayer is fun for shogun, playd in local arenas a lot. I dont think i`m an ace, there is always something new to be found in a battle. I also loose battles (not in single player ... well only if i`ve not been carefull) ...
I honestly have to say that the first time i played the game i hated ashigaru ... only after manny hours of playing experimenting i began to trust ashigaru ... and as it happend in a local arena i somehow defeated my opponents 4 Naginata Cav 2 Archer Cav whit 7 ashi (only ashi) H4 Armor 3 Weapon 3 ... ok soo i lost most of my ashi ... but i still won ... the next day the same troops and i lost ... so sometimes you win sometimes you loose ...
What i realy found interesting in the game is that the larger the unit size the better the morale ( resistence in this case ) of your units ... 120 ashi are almost exelent , while 100 are good ... 80 still are usefull but whit 60 .. well kill only 20 of them and they start to weawer ...

Yari Ashigaru and Yari Samurai

Unit type: Yari ashigaru
Attack factor: -1 chages in formation ...
Defense factor: -1 chages in formation ...
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: -4 chages in formation ... highly influenced by general
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

Unit type: Yari samurai
Attack factor: 0 .. not to much better then ashigaru ....
Defense Factor: 2 ... better ....
Armor: 3 ... 3 points ??? if you press F1 it stats 2 ... ERROR ???
Morale bonus: 2 BETTER !!!
Walk speed: 6 . litle slower
Run speed: 10 .. slower

http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/guides/pc/shogun/p8_01.html ... (hope its ok the give the link)

Teppo is nice but a little rain and ... well you will have a hard time ...
using only ashi is tough but you can win ... expect high casualties ....
there are 2 working "strategies" here: high honour + armor + weapons and slightly more troops than the opponent has ... say if he has 7 units you should have 9 ... at least 8 but then the battle will be though ...
second .. no upgrage ashi ... but ratio should be 4 ashi (you) to 1 (Ai) samurai ...

Just to say it (NEWER DO THIS) i made Toyotomi Hideyoshi ( starting rank 5) ASHIGARU 120 yari ... ( he was ashigaru in reality ) at the end of the game he was a 6 rank general whit 58 battles won ... why not 64 to gain rank 7 :((( .. only whit Takeda Shingen can i make this happen and he always commands CAV still have the screenshot ...( Heavy - my favorite, Naginata, Yari .. never archer cav ) ....

So i have a question too .. sombody ever managed to win 128 battles whit a general ????????????????????? is that possible ???? even whit high taxes and frecvent rebellion i only won 102 ... by then all Japan was mine ... :(

Sasaki Kojiro

07-07-2006, 07:06

So i have a question too .. sombody ever managed to win 128 battles whit a general ????????????????????? is that possible ???? even whit high taxes and frecvent rebellion i only won 102 ... by then all Japan was mine ... :(

I've heard it doesn't go higher than 127. Most wins I've had with a general is 30 or so.

Dexter

07-07-2006, 07:47

too bad ... and is it possible to change the turs to be 12 in a year ???
are there mods ??? and to vin more than 127 ... mod ???

Drisos

07-07-2006, 08:09

I remember once I made it to rank 7 with Uesugi Kenshin iirc. Won about 35 battles. Too bad rank 8 is not there.. it would be cool to have +4 honour bonus!! That would make it possible to train units and have them with honour 7 initially!! :dizzy2: :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup:

Dexter

07-07-2006, 08:37

Nice to see that i`m not the only Shogun maniac :))) LoL
Coool ... But still Takeda is the ruler ov Cavalry ... i like to kill`em all ( METALLICA )
... good to see so manny people online ... messenger ??? :2thumbsup:

Drisos

07-07-2006, 14:24

here's the story on my campaign I mentioned earlier.. I think I actually did use a few units of ashigaru at some point in the game.. well.. perhaps that was in an other campaign.. I don't really remember.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=64268

and here.. sasaki reporting on excellent techniques.. also with Ashigaru. I don't think it really matters for him which units he had, but he could do it with the ashigaru as well as you can read ~:)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40292

Dexter

07-10-2006, 08:19

Thanx fo the links :book:

I had no time to play recently so my campagne is still far from finished. (Oda 1550)

Personaly having played the game for manny hours ( Weeks, years, once even for 6 monts exclusivly SHOGUN ... LoL ) i decided to make it more difficult ... so the easyest way was to increase unit size ... at first it was a disaster .... double upkeep, 2 seasons training... it was then i had to use more ashigaru then samurai ... specialy whit Shimazu ( 1530 / 1550 not Sengoku jidai) ... 3 provinces ... no koku :wall: .... so i used the ashi ...
Yari Ashigaru or Yari Samurai was the real question here .... 120 samurai ore 240 ashi ... to prevent rebellion i choose the ashi ... still there were rebellions ... and ashi gaind honour ... lots of honour ... then i made the "mistake" to become christian ... more rebellion ... :dizzy2: ...
whanting to add Yamashiro to my land i had to fight sohei ... as christian this was not so hard as my ashigru did not rout ( they were far from the quality of Oda`s ashi ... 2 ore 3 honour and 1 weapon ... thats all ... if i remember correcly i had ony 1 ashi unt of some 90 men who had honour 7 ... 5 + 2 from general ... this unit was orriginaly some 5 120 ashi ... but gaining honour and loosing 10-20 men per battle this is what was left of them ... so i merged them ) as they did not get morale penalty for attacking ore being attacked by sohei ...
The problem whit sohei is that they imply this penalty to samurai as well ... the higer there honour the higher the penalty ... not speaking of there combat skills ... here i found that ashi supported by archers ( had 3 archers 2 no-dachi and 8 ashi + genaral son yari cav) can beat sohei ( 6 units sohei whom had fighting xp whit Oda ... so there were "only" 590 in total, but whit honur 3 - 4 ... so :help: !!! ... they were supported by archers 4 - 480 and 1 yari samurai 96 - i dont remember exatly but this is close to it .. +/- 5 men ) ... in this battle i made a terrible mistake as i did not use the no-dachi to flank ... from 240 only some 100 were alive after the battle ... :embarassed: even ashi sufferd as of 930 ( 7 full 120 and the 90 ) only 580 lived to see another day ...
but here i found that even sacrificing ashi to frendly fire it is worth it as you can kill even the mighty sohei .. :idea2: ... tried the tactic whit Oda .... 4 ashi + 2 archers vs 3 monks + 2 archers = i win Ai lose ...

don`t get me wrog i like yari samurai ... but sometimes ( specialy whit large unit size ) it is hard to have sufficient man to secure and expand ... facind incredible odds like Takeda whit 1500 men Hojo whit 980 men and Imagawa 870 men attacking your force of 1720 men in Shinano ... most of youe men are ashi and still you win the battle has proven to me that ashigaru are worth it .. they are the weakest unit in the game but there are wery adaptable ... and not hard to replace as sohei ..

some math

120 sohei = 1000 koku upkeep 120 koku
600 ashigaru = 1000 koku upkeep 300 koklu
600 yari samurai = 2400 koku upkeep 600 koku
600 sohei = 5000 koku upkeep 600 koku

do you have enough koku ??? whit Shimazu, Mori, Oda, Imagawa ??? not Sengoku Jidai ....

well i like to play a "secure" campaigne so i have my borders defended ... most whit ashi ... dont like it when the Ai attacks my rear ... as whit the above mentioned clans ( ok exept Shimazu if you dont have ports ... the Ai likes to attack here a lot ) it is hard to get the necesary koku ...

To all Shogun players : HAVE FUN WHIT A GREAT GAME !!!

Drisos

07-10-2006, 15:42

Personaly having played the game for manny hours ( Weeks, years, once even for 6 monts exclusivly SHOGUN ... LoL )

I've been playing shogun exclusively (expect for a few hours here and there very ocasionally) for years and years as well. but I don't have that much time to play computer games so that is.. mostly 1 hour a day.

some math

120 sohei = 1000 koku upkeep 120 koku
600 ashigaru = 1000 koku upkeep 300 koklu
600 yari samurai = 2400 koku upkeep 600 koku
600 sohei = 5000 koku upkeep 600 koku

do you have enough koku ??? whit Shimazu, Mori, Oda, Imagawa ??? not Sengoku Jidai ....

hmm that might indeed be another good idea. I always disliked the 120 setting because proper manouvres in battle.. such as flanking are a lot harder with it. makes the battles less important in the campaign. but I think it is indeed harder.. never really tried it out though so don't know if I would still manage to keep enough koku.

Dexter

07-11-2006, 09:24

[QUOTE=Drisos]I've been playing shogun exclusively (expect for a few hours here and there very ocasionally) for years and years as well. but I don't have that much time to play computer games so that is.. mostly 1 hour a day.

Me too ... :ballchain: now that i`m not a student anymore ... got to work ... :dizzy2:

Well at weekend perhaps ... 4-5 hours ( love this game )
Afternoos well if i`m lucky 2-3 hours ... at best

Flanking works exelenty whit large units ( 120 / 100 ) ... the formation is the most important here ( best is whit cav in wedge ) ... set ashigaru 6 ranks deep and samurai in 5 .... ore if you are certain you will win then 4 ranks .. archers work wongerfull whit 6 ranks deep .. but if you have 3 - 4 units place them on after the other close as posible in 4 ranks deep ... works like you have one huge unit of 480 archers in 16 ranks ... rain of arrows ... :2thumbsup: ....

oh and dont forget to use a lot hold formation whit / ore hold position ... :juggle2:

Drisos

07-11-2006, 15:37

caravel

07-11-2006, 16:06

The problem with flanking I was referring to is the size of the units. It takes them more time to walk past the enemy flank and attack when they are the double size.

I use hold formation very rarely (at least, in SP.). I usually rout the entire enemy army at once so it's ok for my men to chase them. If not the entire enemy army routs yet, I use the faster units that have already finished their opponent to attack the 'still fighting' opponent.
Hold Position I do use a lot.. because the AI rarely attacks me the flank, and I usually do it to him. and I also have more ranged armies then the AI.

Do you have hold position and hold formation switched in that post? I assume so, because you speak of your men "chasing", which refers to hold position.

I always switch my Yari Samurai and Yari Ashigaru into hold formation when attacking cavalry though not otherwise. When in a defensive position I always use Hold position to stop them drifting away. As to Ashigaru, I use them only as garrisons, while they are superior to the peasants in MTW (Ashigaru are spearmen wheras MTW peasants are technically swordsmen, though so bad as to be practically useless.) they still have poor morale and are statistically inferior to Yari Samurai. As noted earlier the Yari Samurai are Elite so they are unaffected by Ashigaru routers. Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. I suppose you could find a niche for Ashigaru once well upgraded and with a good general in the later stages of the campaign, though by then you should be minted and not need to save koku that badly. :2cents:

Drisos

07-11-2006, 20:38

Dexter

07-12-2006, 08:23

Do you have hold position and hold formation switched in that post? I assume so, because you speak of your men "chasing", which refers to hold position.

I always switch my Yari Samurai and Yari Ashigaru into hold formation when attacking cavalry though not otherwise. When in a defensive position I always use Hold position to stop them drifting away. As to Ashigaru, I use them only as garrisons, while they are superior to the peasants in MTW (Ashigaru are spearmen wheras MTW peasants are technically swordsmen, though so bad as to be practically useless.) they still have poor morale and are statistically inferior to Yari Samurai. As noted earlier the Yari Samurai are Elite so they are unaffected by Ashigaru routers. Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. I suppose you could find a niche for Ashigaru once well upgraded and with a good general in the later stages of the campaign, though by then you should be minted and not need to save koku that badly. :2cents:

My writing is not the best neither ... know the words dont know how to write them down .. :embarassed:

... have you ever used unit size 120 ore 100 ??????? ... if you are lucky you can pay all your samurai ( 1 samurai 1 koku upkeep but not the training ... "cheapest" are yari samurai and 120 cost you 400 koku ! ... whit 80 ( unit size ) there is no problem ... but if you play the other two ( 120/100 ) you will see what i mean .. specialy if you need to train replacements .... and you only have some 1500 koku ... start in 1550 ... Oda ( if expert will become stronger then you ) and Hojo ( lots of Ashigaru and archers + rich land ) will be :inquisitive: ... how the heck has he some 6000 to 7000 men ??? ( 16 x 120 = 1920 ) that is 4 full armys ... "Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. " nope ... DRILL DOJO !!! helps a lot ... not speaking how it improves your samurai ... :2thumbsup:

Sorry Drisos ( you speak german ? i do ... a lot better the my TV english ) but for me it works ... 120 flanking .. so i kill 1000 lose some 100 - 200 ( if not paying enough attantion to it then 400 - 500 at worst ... not good ... drink koffe to be able to pay ore if too sleepy ... DONT PLAY !!! get some rest ... )

ps : let the ashi die not your samurai .. they worth much more ( even in koku !!! )

use 100 ore 120 ... maybe you have a better method to get koku ??? ( starting 1530 / 1550 / 1580 not Sengoku Jidai ) ... pls tell me !!! pilaging works ... at least untill you destroy everithing .. but what then ??? ( skorched earth ? ... nope i dont like that )

Anny comment / opinion is welkome !!!

Thanx ...

caravel

07-12-2006, 09:38

Is Hold Position the 'button' between 'engage-at-will' and 'skirmish'? If so, yes, I've switched them above. I'm dutch and have the dutch version.. I've been in doubt on switching these or not for a while lol.. :laugh4:

No worries, I thought for a moment you had a new strategy of always using Yari's on "engage at will", the default for swordsmen in MTW. By "Hold formation" I'm referring to the individual men in a unit not engaging the enemy individually and turning into a disorderly "swarm", but staying in their formation and moving to fill the "gaps" when men are killed. This is the default for spearmen in MTW. "Hold Position" is the option that stops your men chasing routers. Instead they return to their defenisve positions. With STW "Engage at will" is the default for all units except archers/horse archer units.

Sasaki Kojiro

07-12-2006, 13:09

I always put yari's on "engage at will", unless they are fighting monks and I need them to hold out for a while until I flank the monk unit. They are quite capable of getting kills.

caravel

07-12-2006, 13:28

I always put yari's on "engage at will", unless they are fighting monks and I need them to hold out for a while until I flank the monk unit. They are quite capable of getting kills.

I would have though they'd be better on hold formation vs cavalry though?

Drisos

07-12-2006, 13:30

. By "Hold formation" I'm referring to the individual men in a unit not engaging the enemy individually and turning into a disorderly "swarm", but staying in their formation and moving to fill the "gaps" when men are killed.

ah ok. Then I did indeed switched these. Thanks for the info :2thumbsup:

Dexter

07-12-2006, 13:39

Against cav hold formation and position is better until enough of them die .. morale is down and then engage ( rage ) at will !!!
whit ashi ... hold formation is absolutly necessary ! even ( specialy ) if you flank whit them .... then wen the enemy is almost broken all out attack !!! timing is critical here ... to soon engage at will and bye-bye ashigaru ... to late and much less killing .... this way only ashi kill sohei .. 3 vs 2 works ... not 1 to 1 ... 4 vs 2 is ideal but nothing is ewer ideal in the middle of a fight ..

ps : i like ashigaru ... little "stupid" "peasants" willing to fight and die fore me !!!
2. who needs the mighty samurai when you kow that the ikko-ikki manged to defeat more then one samurai army !!! ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikko-ikki ... Kaga ... Ise ... and so on