Red Flood [Archive] - Page 4

Franconicus

04-03-2007, 13:13

Chapter 50 – Endgame
South of Tobruk, May 29th

Hoth decides to slow down the operation. German and Italian divisions are exhausted and a more aggressive advance would only result in high casualties.

After regenerating during night, 15. PD and Ariete head north. The lack of reconnaissance units slows the advance further down. Trieste is securing the rear and the right flank. Brescia is joining the leading divisions.

There is little resistance of the British. In the afternoon, the 15. PD hits retreating columns of the Indian Division. The Germans capture many Indian soldiers. Only near El Adem the Indians manage to create a solid line of defense.

In the meantime, Hoth receives the news that Navarrini ordered his army corps to attack the Australian division. Supported by heavy artillery and Italian bombers and ground attack planes, Trento and Bologna break through and drive the Australians towards Tobruk.

Air patrols tell Hoth that the 7. Armored Division is still marching eastwards, leaving the battlefield.

In the evening Trieste reaches Fort Capuzzo. The garrison is weak and the Italians take it by surprise. Several hundred Indian soldiers are imprisoned.

May 30 the Brescia assaults El Adem. Although this important airfield is in reach of the long range artillery of Tobruk, the Italian infantrymen break the Indian resistance. About three thousand Indians give up.

At the same time Navarrini, ignoring the orders of Hoth, tries to assault Tobruk from the western side. Italian bombers and artillery level the mine fields and the barricades. Then soldiers of Trento and German pioneers assault. At the first attempt they are able to take three strongholds and to open a gate in the outer ring of defense. Italian light tanks are trying to push through this gap, but they get stuck.

During night the Australians make a counterstrike and drive the Italians back. Then the front stabilizes. During the last two days the Axis’ forces have taken 6.000 prisoners.

In the night of May 30. Hoth, Ramcke, Rommel, Navarrini and Cambara meet at El Adem to discuss the next steps.

Navarinni: “Let’s make another attempt to take Tobruk. The British are not able to support the fortress right now. We know that there are two divisions inside and that the British try to evacuate them. Now is the right moment for a decision. Let me assault with my corps from the east and the rest of our troops from the south.”

Cambara: “I do not agree. A fortress like this cannot be taken in a day. Let us take the 15. PD, Ariete and Brescia and bypass the fortress until we reach the sea. Once Tobruk is cut off, we can start to siege the town.”
Rommel: “Cambarra is right! However, we need a strong position in the east. We should hunt the 4. Indian and take Bardia and Solum. If we are lucky, we will defeat the Indians completely.”

Hoth: “I am not so sure about it. We have been in the same situation before. The eastern flank will be easily bypassed. I think it would be better to entrench at El Adem and Fort Capuzzo and to wait for fresh troops. Within two weeks we will have two tank divisions at our command.”

Rodion Romanovich

04-03-2007, 14:50

Nice, looks like we did the right thing in the last few chapters!

For the next chapter, I think Hoth is right. We can't take Tobruk in a day, and we shouldn't advance to the east while so many troops are tied down outside Tobruk and our own reinforcements are just weeks away. In the meantime consolidate and strengthen the eastern line with AT guns and AT mines positions. Rotate the ring around Tobruk so it is weakened to the west up to the point that it can't carry out any offensive actions there but can't be broken through by the encircled enemies either, and move the freed up troops to strengthen the eastern line. Keep all air forces to support the ground troops along the eastern line most of the time, but also send one to three sorties to try and attack the harbor of Tobruk, seeking to damage it enough to put it out of action around 1-2 months, before the Australians can be evacuated. From what I understand, our naval resources are rather limited at the moment anyway and we can be supplied up to the Bardia line and possibly slightly further even without controlling the harbor of Tobruk. So if the harbor of Tobruk is put out of action for 1-2 months so we can prevent the evacuation of and force the surrender of the Australians, it'll benefit us more than it will hurt us, since I doubt we will break through past the Bardia line in the coming 2 months anyway. The plan is the following:
1. quickly trap the Australians by air raids on the harbor, while building up defensive positions to the east
2. defend the eastern line while besieging the Australians
3. if it seems we're able to, we should push forward moderately to the east, if this means we get a stronger defensive line there. We shouldn't advance further than Bardia and Sollum though, since I believe if we go much further beyond that line we will outrun our supply.
4. no assaulting Tobruk, just besieging it. No falling for the temptation of chasing the British eastern forces. Just waiting until the inevitable Australian surrender, while there might be British relief attempts by attacking our well-supplied, well-entrenched eastern line, or British attempts to supply the pocket by air - which gives us excellent opportunities to shoot down many of their planes.

If we do this right we will capture Tobruk and 2 enemy divisions while inflicting way more losses than we suffer.

AggonyDuck

04-03-2007, 16:04

I'm with Cambara and Rommel here. The Australians are far from defeated and an assault now will only result in serious losses for us. Our aim now should be to reach the sea and secure good defensive terrain in the east and hold there. Once our reinforcements arrive we can either try assaulting Tobruk or continuing our dash east, although dunno if our supplies can hold that.

(Bloody Australians)

Stig

04-03-2007, 16:09

We need Tobruk so it has to be taken ... intact if we want to use it.
Cambara seem to make sense. Dunno about Rommels plan however, could try ofcourse.
I think we should let the airforce concentrate on what's left of the 7th Armoured and destroy it's tanks.

DemonArchangel

04-03-2007, 17:06

Cambara is correct, our forces should move to the sea to cut off Tobruk. In a week or two, when we get fresh tanks and troops, we can assault and capture Tobruk.

Unfortunately, due to time constraints, we can't afford to just sit around and besiege Tobruk. What I suggest doing is demolishing the minefields with our artillery, then using the 3 and 4 PzD's CS tanks along with their rifle regiments to actually fight in Tobruk. What I'm afraid of the most is Russian Air Defense, making combat in Tobruk very close and violent.

Also, seeing as how Tobruk is about to fall, I'm going to do another requisition for supplies, because we need to do the following:

*Punch through the chokepoint at Alamein, which will require that we have air and artillery superiority.

*Take Alexandria

*Take Cairo

*Take whatever fortifications the British have at the Suez.

This means that we need:

*Two extra regiments of heavy artillery
*Another Pioneer regiment
*More tanks
*More airplanes
*More fuel

Also, could we get Pavia some trucks or something, so that they can move up the line?

SwordsMaster

04-03-2007, 17:26

I'm just putting emphasis on the fuel and the desert-specific parts. The road ain't getting any better until we hit Baghdad and that is still a long way away...

I agree with you guys, the understrength divs should be replenished, a defensive line set up caturing the airfield and Tobruk locked up tight. Our planes should concentrate on bombing the british armour though instead of the port in Tobruk. Firstly because the australians are surrounded anyway, and secondly because destroyed armour will make our job at Alamein a lot easier than a few more starving australians...

discovery1

04-04-2007, 01:46

And what about supplies being brought in by sea to the Australians, or their evacuation? Although, it may be possible to hit it hard for just one day, and then leave it. Hopefully it would be out of action for awhile. Of course, Tobruk needs to be cut off.

King Kurt

04-04-2007, 10:53

Hoth has got it right - we choose him as our man, let's stick with him. A short pause to regroup then onwards. Tobruk might be better suited to fall because, ironically, there are many more men there - a lot more difficult to keep supplied. So let the seige continue with interdiction of the port. Planes are relatively wasted against tanks as we have no specialist AT plane units.

Stig

04-04-2007, 10:58

Planes are relatively wasted against tanks as we have no specialist AT plane units.
Stukas?
They can dive-bomb them

King Kurt

04-04-2007, 12:37

Stukas?
They can dive-bomb them
Historically not very effective against tanks - great against soft targets....and brilliant against ships. Also stukas are fighter fodder by 1941 unless you have air superiority, so Tobruk is a better target with limited resources. Cannon are far better for anti tank as shown by the 40mm cannon armed Hurricanes in the Desert - due later in 1941!! and the Tank busting Stuka - early 1943.

Franconicus

04-04-2007, 14:39

Chapter 51 – Trip to the coast!
Libya, May 31st - June 15th

On May 31st the German and Italian tank divisions – or what is left of them – are advancing through a sandstorm east of Tobruk until they reach the coast. Now Tobruk is cut off again and the Axis has almost reached the same position it had on May 13th. On the way the German and Italian soldiers capture a lot of quipment and trucks left by the Indian division.

Rommel decides to turn east to see if it is possible to take Barida and Solum by surprise. As he approaches Bardia, he receives a hot welcome by British artillery. Rommels sends patrols which find out that Bardia and Solumn are occupied by the English, at least one division, maybe more. Air reconnaisance confirms that, estimating even more units. Obviously the German and Italian troops came up against British reinforcements.

In the coverless desert Rommel’s troops are exposed to massive air strikes. Within an hour Rommel looses half of its remaining tanks. English ground attack planes jump at the supply convoys. The German Luftwaffe is not able to operate east of Tobruk, at the moment. Therefore, Rommel decides to turn around and to retreat his divisions to the area El Adem and Capuzzo.

So the battle ends. Both sides are exhausted and waiting for their reserves.

The German reserves are coming as planned. Models 3. Panzerdivision appears on the African battleground. The 5. Light gets replacements and is reorganised as a regular tank division. It is renamed into 21. Panzerdivision. The Italian send reinforcements, too and soon Ariete, Trieste, Trento, Brescia, Bologna have their nominal strength again. What is even more important than the numbers of soldiers, due to the captured equipment all divisions have the full number of trucks. Fuel storage is good, however June is very hot and it is getting more and more difficult to supply the troops with water.

Only two divisions are not completely ready for combat. Pavia is still lacking transport means and the 15. Panzerdivision has only reached 50% of its nominal strength.

In total the Germans have 400 tanks now, their Italian allies about 184 tanks and 90 tankettes.

The Luftwaffe has increased their strength, too. There is one Stuka group, two bomber squads, one fighter squad and a recon group.

The Tommies have reinforced their position, too. Town and fortress of Tobruk are guarded by the Australian 7. Division and the British 6. Division. At Solum there are the Australian 6. Division and the 10. Indian Division. Behind this line there is the 7. Armoured Division, refilled with a total tank force of about 340 tanks. The 4. Indian Division is near Marsa Maruth. There is at least another division near Alexandria. A minimum of two additional divisions are currently shipped to Egypt. In total there are 7 to 9 divisions on the way to Alexandria. The English formation is now called 8. Army and is led by General Wavell himself.

The British Desert Air Force is stronger than ever. It has fourteen squadrons, six fighter, six medium bomber and four night bomber.
During the last weeks, Rommel has tried to cut off Tobruk by raiding the supply line along the coast. These missions have been costly for both sides. Today Tobruk is well defended by two divisions, supported by a big number of air defence guns and heavy artillery. Additionally there are about twenty fighters on airfields inside the fortress. Unlike during the first siege, there are very few tanks inside the town.

The transports across the Mediterranean have been without any troubles. German bombers detected and bombed two British submarines. That was all. On May 25, the Italian attacked Gibraltar. Submarine Sciré left La Spezia carrying three manned torpedoes. At Cadiz, in Spain it secretly loaded six crew for them. At Gibraltar, they found no warships because the Renown, Ark Royal and Sheffield had been ordered to the Atlantic for convoy protection against the German battleship Bismarck, which was sunk on May 27. The manned torpedoes tried, unsuccessfully, to sink a ship. Their six crew returned to Italy via Spain.

Now it is mid-June. The weather is extremely hot. Around Tobruk as well as inside the fortress the soldiers are suffering from the heat. Nevertheless, the commanders of the German and Italian Corps meet at Derna to discuss the plans for a new offensive.

Hoth: “Gentlemen, our armies are refilled and supplied. We are stronger than the enemy and we have superiority regarding tanks. Despite the unfortunate weather we have to use this for an offensive operation. Maybe the enemy does not expect an invasion during summer and we can take him by surprise.

Yesterday, I received a message from the Führer. He tells us that he expects us to attack the British forces immediately, to defeat the British 8. Army, and to invade Egypt. He expects us to reach Suez as soon as possible.”

While the other generals are looking at Hoth, Ramcke raises:
“Gentlemen, I received a message, too. It is from Keitel. He gives the order to take Tobruk before any invasion of Egypt. He also prompts us to act immediately. We have to reach Cairo before the end of August.”

These words are followed by helpless silence. Then Hoth continues:

“I think it is time to discuss the strategic plan and the deployment for the battle. Then the butchering can start again. Before we discuss our strategy, I have to tell you something else that Hitler wrote. From my report he knew that we captured about 50 Polish soldiers, most of them wounded. He regards them as illegal combatants and tells us to execute them immediately.”

This time the silence lasts even longer.

Ramcke has enough time to make up his mind:

1) Follow Hitler’s order and execute the Poles!
2) Ignore the order and regard the poles as British POWs!
3) Write Hitler a letter telling him that this would violate international rights!

Also discuss strategy and deployment!

Stig

04-04-2007, 14:48

Franconicus

04-04-2007, 14:55

Make your proposal where I shall place the units!

SwordsMaster

04-04-2007, 15:23

If we don't execute the Poles Hitler will be cross. However:
2. Don't execute the Poles, and act as the order never came through.

I suggest we attack Tobruk before we advance into Egypt. Tobruk is needed for supplying our own men.

Any change on a map with current troop positions?

That's exactly it, Tobruk is NOT needed right now. Our troops are supplied and ready to fight. They can make do without additional supplies for a couple of weeks.

Now this is what I'm proposing:

Model's 3rd panzerdivision and the 15 PD will swing for Fort Maddalena and then move towards the indians in MArsa since they seem to be the weakest link in this chain.

They will be supported by Rommel with the 21PD and Ariete and they will attempt to hit the 7th armoured from two sides.

PAvia and Brescia will be left to man the fortifications at Tobruk.

The other italians will keep the pressure on on the british positions.

The airforce should try and cover their advance and take out as many AT guns as possible.

The real battle is going to be the one Rommel is fighting against the 7thArmoured and the Indians. If the manoevre succeeds, the entire 8th army will be surrounded and cut into 2 pockets:

1 Tobruk: Australian 7. Division and the British 6. Division
2 Sollum: Australian 6. Division and the 10. Indian DivisionThe remains of the 7th Armoured and the Indians will be spread between these two.

So then, Model's group will have to set up a defensive line that should be rinforced by another italian div to the East to meet the reinforcements from Egypt. He should also get most of the airforce suport.

Franc, could you place this on a map so I can see how it could work out? Please

EDIT: Danke

Stig

04-04-2007, 15:39

That's exactly it, Tobruk is NOT needed right now. Our troops are supplied and ready to fight. They can make do without additional supplies for a couple of weeks.
Not now, but when we reach El Alamein we will be out of supplies

Franconicus

04-04-2007, 15:45

SM's plan:
https://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4058/prsentation1zn8.jpg

DemonArchangel

04-04-2007, 15:50

1.) Execute the Poles, videotape the executions, send the tape back to Hitler along with a request for more German shipping in the Mediterranean, so that we can get more supplies.

Also, Hitler isn't exactly a nice guy when his orders are directly disobeyed. We will lose support in the upper echelons of the Reich if we don't do as they say.

My intention is to take Tobruk as soon as possible. Without Tobruk, we can only supply our troops up to Solum, so we need to take it as soon as possible if we want to advance into Egypt.

I advocate immediately assaulting Tobruk with what we currently have.

Basically, I want massive artillery bombardment of Tobruk to clear the minefields, followed by an assault with German Pz. IV CS tanks that are closely supported by the infantry, and by fighters and Stukas. The job of the bombers will be to keep any RN ships out of Tobruk's harbor. The lighter Pz. IIIs and lighter Italian tanks, as well as our AT guns, will be placed to the east of Tobruk to prevent any relief efforts. Although casualties will be heavy, we can quickly resupply from Tobruk, as its natural harbor is nearly impossible to destroy.

SwordsMaster

04-04-2007, 16:08

Yeah, sure, the poles can be executed. I am still against a frontal attack against a well-fortified enemy.... It seems a bit of a waste, it'll have us sitting and waiting for reinforcements for another 6 weeks...

Stig

04-04-2007, 16:31

videotape the executions
it's 1941 m8 ~D

discovery1

04-04-2007, 17:06

What kind of AAA is Tobruk equipted with? Would they be effective against high altitude bombers? If not, we can hit the docks with relative impunity, well aside from those fighters of course. Although we might not want to do that if we want to use them immediately, although I suppose then the limeys would blow them up anyway.

Eh, execute the poles and record it, try to use it to get more supplies I guess.....

How did Hitler know about those poles anyway?

How mobile are those divisions seiging Tobruk?

Rodion Romanovich

04-04-2007, 17:27

2) Don't execute the Poles. However, send a message to Hitler that says we did it. Make sure someone else than the one who gives the order of sparing the POWs send the message that it was done, so it looks like a communication mistake. If Hitler finds out the Poles were spared, the two will blame each others and eventually conclude there was a communication mistake. If Hitler repeats the order, take the Polish uniforms, dress some killed soldier in them if needed, and let the Poles free, then again say they were executed.

Military plans:
- I think our current line just east of Tobruk is strong enough to hold off any British counter-attacks, but if we go too far east of the city before taking it, we are out of supply and air support. So let's hold the line there, while besieging Tobruk by damaging the harbor.

DemonArchangel

04-04-2007, 19:26

Ok, guys, you fail to understand that Tobruk's natural harbor CANNOT be damaged. Even if you blow out the docks and the piers, the British can still unload supplies, unless you start doing radical environmental engineering, which we don't have the ordnance to do. So we have to assault Tobruk, because we have to get a supply point closer to Alamein, and because without Tobruk, our air force can't operate east of it. So we must attack Tobruk, because SwordsMaster's attack will leave our tanks stranded behind enemy lines without fuel or supplies, and open to attack from the British airforce.

And just execute the Polish soldiers, get on Hitler's good side. It will result in more supplies for us, which is the most important thing of all. War will always be about attrition. The maneuvering is just window dressing.

Oh yea, slight change in my plan: Have the 21 PzD, Ariete and Trieste take Fort Maddalena and attack the 10th Indian/6th Australian to secure our flank, while Trento, Bologna, Pavia and Brescia assault Tobruk from the West and from the South. 15 PzD and 3 PzD will block off the East from attack. This deployment should be close enough to our airbases that we can cover our formations with our planes as they move.

SwordsMaster

04-04-2007, 19:37

Ok, guys, you fail to understand that Tobruk's natural harbor CANNOT be damaged. Even if you blow out the docks and the piers, the British can still unload supplies, unless you start doing radical environmental engineering, which we don't have the ordnance to do. So we have to assault Tobruk, because we have to get a supply point closer to Alamein, and because without Tobruk, our air force can't operate east of it. So we must attack Tobruk, because SwordsMaster's attack will leave our tanks stranded behind enemy lines without fuel or supplies, and open to attack from the British airforce.

And just execute the Polish soldiers, get on Hitler's good side. It will result in more supplies for us, which is the most important thing of all. War will always be about attrition. The maneuvering is just window dressing.

Ok, fine, attack Tobruk then. But try and save as many tanks as possible... Then my manoevre becomes a second step in this operation...

King Kurt

04-04-2007, 20:00

Besides the moral arguement - strong enough for me - it would be a major mistake to kill the Poles. They are from the Carpathia brigade who are all Poles and when word gets out that they were killed, they will be even more determined to slaughter as many Germans as possible. poles fighting for the Allies were some of the most determined fighters they had - witness the Polish pilots in the Battle of Britain. The desert campaign was mainly one were these sort of things did not really happen - the lack of civilians helped, but it was a bit of a gentleman's war. By all means send word to Hitler that they were killed, but loose them in paperwork, not by a bullet through the head.
As for our next move, we need to take Tobruk, if only because Keitel has said so. a massive assault will be costly, so perhaps the answer is an infiltration, Stormtroopen style assault. Water is the key - let's find the garrison's source of water - remember big garrisson, so lots needed - and attack that.

Stig

04-04-2007, 20:35

"Inform" the Brits of the location of the Polish prisoners, who (by accident) we're held prisoner at the front.
50 Poles will hardly be much more of a challenge.

DemonArchangel

04-04-2007, 22:19

Besides the moral argument - strong enough for me - it would be a major mistake to kill the Poles. They are from the Carpathia brigade who are all Poles and when word gets out that they were killed, they will be even more determined to slaughter as many Germans as possible. poles fighting for the Allies were some of the most determined fighters they had - witness the Polish pilots in the Battle of Britain. The desert campaign was mainly one were these sort of things did not really happen - the lack of civilians helped, but it was a bit of a gentleman's war. By all means send word to Hitler that they were killed, but loose them in paperwork, not by a bullet through the head.
As for our next move, we need to take Tobruk, if only because Keitel has said so. a massive assault will be costly, so perhaps the answer is an infiltration, Stormtrooper style assault. Water is the key - let's find the garrison's source of water - remember big garrison, so lots needed - and attack that.

I agree that an infiltration can be an element of the attack, but that our main thrust should come from the assault.

What I suggest is infiltrating some elite infantry units (the Brandenburgers?) into Tobruk to attack their water supplies, followed immediately by the assault.

AggonyDuck

04-04-2007, 23:22

I am not confident that we can take Tobruk without heavy losses that we cannot afford, atleast not yet when the British are just growing stronger. We need to attack the British while they are still weak to keep the force parity in our advantage. Hence I feel that our next operation should be directed against the 10th Indian and the 6th Australian Division.

Here's how I would do it:

At Tobruk the Pavia, Brescia and Bologna hold their ground and defend against breakout attempts from the besieged.

The remaining divisions are reserved for the operation in the east. It will be a limited advance with the goal of reducing the two British divisions at the front. The Trento and Trieste will be deployed in the northern part of the battlefield and will face the 6th Australian Division, the 15. Panzer Division will face the 10th Indian division. The 3. and 21. Panzer Divisions and Ariete will be reserved for the flanking attack.

The first phase goes like this:
-Trento and Trieste feign an attack (not necessary)
-3. PD, 21. PD and Ariete flank the British position from the south. The idea is that Ariete will arrive directly south of the 10th Indian, while the 3. and 21. PD envelop the division from the east. Maybe a night march to avoid advancing in the heat and also arrive at the target during the morning.

Second Phase:
- 21. PD attacks the 10th Indian from the rear and the 15. PD launches a frontal attack against the Indians, the Ariete will attack the Indians from the south. The idea is to pocket the Indians and clear up supply lines. In this heat a pocket in the middle of the desert is forced to surrender by thirst. The 3. PD will meanwhile protect the rear of the 21. PD to brush off the British counterattacks.

Third Phase:
-Ensuring the annihilation of the 10th Indian Division.

Fourth Phase:
-Either a further operation against the 6th Australian Div. or a withdrawal towards El Adem and Fort Capuzzo.

As you can see this operation is a limited advance with the goal of keeping the force parity on our sides; the two major problems that I see with it is the lack of water supplies and allied airpower. To deal with this I'd recommend that we find a way to supply our advancing troops with water, maybe the bombers could drop water containers instead of bombs during the nights. As to the Allied airpower, it might be beneficial to try to locate British airfields and launching raids against them by reinforced panzer reconnaisance battalions or by Brandenburger raids.

I'm finding the Polish question something of a dilemma and I believe you will have better answer for that than I do.

AggonyDuck

04-05-2007, 00:14

Well while I am at it, I might as well write my thoughts about the assault on Tobruk.

The objective of the assault is to reach the port and eventually clear the Tobruk of allies. So how are we going to manage it?

Frontal combined arms assaults never really succeeded that well against the Australians in Tobruk. The Australians were masters in either isolating armour from infantry or the other way. Even with overwhelming force and fire support we will have to fight hard for every inch of ground taken. It is possible to take Tobruk this way, but we will pay a high price for it.

So how would I assault Tobruk?

I would propably launch my attack from the south. I'd use the area around El Adem as my assembly area and attack northwards with the final objective being the southern side of Tobruk harbour. I'd concentrate most of my artillery, pioneers and etc. here. The goal with this attack is to present a serious threat to the defenders and lure defenders down to fight it. We should try pierce atleast one or two of the enemy defence lines if possible. But then we need to something different to ensure further momentum. So I ask you this question:
From what direction would the British never expect us to attack them from?

The sea is my answer. It is the one direction from which we shouldn't be able to attack them. It would almost seem like an impossibility, but that is also why I am confident that it could work, provided that we get the transportation required for it. Surprise is a must for such an operation though.

This is how I'd do it. During the night a unit of Italian frogmen would land close to the southern coast of Tobruk and secure a beachhead from which additional companies of infantry would land in miscellaneous boats etc. If this was done properly we might be able to achieve a complete surprise and actually manage to land a considerable force of men behind the enemy lines, which would be free to operate against the enemy flanks and might unhinge the whole defense line of Tobruk. Already if we could manage to land a something close to a battallion of men behind the enemy, we might be able to break the whole defense.

If my amphibious assault works as I hope it would, then then next step is reaching the harbour and then dividing the enemy forces into pockets. Once the enemy command and control is hampered we will have far easier time in actually defeating them. Either way reaching the harbour is essential, because it will greatly reduce the supplies gained by the defenders.

DemonArchangel

04-05-2007, 03:34

Hmm....I must admit. That's not a bad idea, but I think it must be done in conjunction with the frontal combined arms assault, and the attack on the water, so that the Aussies will be divided and confused (as you said). In any case, we both agree to attack the 10th Indian ad the 6th Australian, so that's going to happen first, followed by the assault on Tobruk.

Or is it going to go down another way?

AggonyDuck

04-05-2007, 07:57

I'd suggest that we clean our back before we launch any assault on Tobruk. A proper assault requires a lot of preparation, especially if it will include a small scale amphibious assault, so during it we have time to launch an operation against the British forces in the east.

Franconicus

04-10-2007, 14:03

Chapter 52 – War Conference
Still Libya, still June 15th

The convened generals look sheepish. None of them wants to reply to Hitler’s order. Finally, Ramcke takes heart and says: “Well, an order is an order. Even if we may not agree …”

Rommel blurts out: “No, in no way! Those Poles fought bravely. They were no snipers, no bandits; they fought regularly in regular uniforms! I will not fill this order, none of my men will!”

Hoth: “There is no other option. Hitler’s order is clear and we have to execute it!”

Rommel: “If this is so, then why don’t you execute it all by yourself? I repeat myself; none of my men will execute one of these brave soldiers!”

Cambara: “I think you miss one fact. These Poles were caught by soldiers of Trieste. Therefore they are prisoners of the Esercito Italiano. I can assure you that the Comando Supremo does not intend to kill any prisoners of war. We regard that as an act of barbarianism!”

Hoth: “I think we all agree with you, Cambara. However, you may not forget that the Germans have the command here at Africa and I am afraid that Hitler’s orders are binding.”

Navarrini: “Well, comrade Hoth, in this case we have to rethink our arrangement. I guarantee that the Italian divisions will not participate in any new operation, if we do not agree on that fact.”

The conversation stagnates again. Finally Hoth sighs and says: “Alright, gentlemen, I will try to ignore Hitler’s order. Cambara, maybe you can make these Poles disappear? I think we’d rather discuss our next steps on the battlefield.”

The discussion about the strategy starts very slowly. It is obvious that the affair with the Poles burdens the meeting.

Model: “If I look at the map, I think that it is obvious that we should do a similar maneuver as we did last time. We can advance to Fort Maddalena, bypassing the Indian 10. Division. Then one detachment could turn north and defeat the British tank formation and cut off the two infantry division. A second detachment could go for Mersa Maruth. Then we have captured the complete 8. Army.”

Rommel shakes his head: “No, Walter that is impossible. During operation “Penguin” we advanced just 50 km behind the lines of the enemy. Yet we had huge problems with supply. You suggest advancing 200 km through the desert. I do not think this is feasible.”

Cambara: “We have tried twice to cut off Tobruk completely by taking Bardia and Solum. Although we have failed so far, this is the only reasonable plan. The British are weak there; we can overrun the Australian 6. and the Indian 10. Division with a frontal assault combined with a flanking attack. We are able to deploy three tank divisions and two infantry divisions against two British infantry divisions. If the 7. Armored Division will join the battle, we can defeat it too. Once we have a good position at Solum, we should advance to Sidi Barani and Fort Maddalena. Then we have a secure eastern position and can start to erode the defense of Tobruk.”

Navarrini: “I disagree! We failed with this plan twice. Not only because we did not have enough soldiers, but because we did not have enough supply. No, let’s wait with our eastern expansion until we have secured Tobruk! We should take it immediately. My corps is strong enough, if you only assist me with artillery, tanks and pioneers. Maybe we could use special forces for a landing at the harbor. We have trapped two British divisions, now let’s butcher them! Then we have a solid base and can advance quickly into Egypt.”

Hoth looks at Schmidt: “Rudolf, you are new here at Africa. What do you think?”

Schmidt: “True, I am new in his round and therefore I think that it is not up to me to give any advices. However, you asked me and I will give you an answer. You see that we trapped two British divisions at Tobruk. Tobruk has strong fortifications and can never be cut off completely. Two British divisions can hold the fortress for a while even against a complete army corps. Our last assault was stopped by only one division.

My idea is to lure them out of their cave. The first phase of the operation could be done by Cambara’s mobile corps, Ariete, Trieste and Brescia. They attack Fort Maddalena and send a smaller troop to seize Jarabub. Then our flank is protected and the British flank is open. In phase two the divisions Trento, Bologna supported by 3. PD and heavy artillery and engineers will attack Tobruk from the west. At the same time 15. PD and 21. PD deploy in front of the Indian division. This threatens the Indians from the east and the south. They either retreat and open the way to Bardia or we overrun them. In the end the British do not have an alternative. They will retreat. They can only choose whether they want to leave the garrison at Tobruk without ay hope to release them or if they pull it back.”

Hoth: “And if they retreat it?”

Schmidt: “Then we have Tobruk and we can chase the British divisions on the plain. We’d rather fight them in the desert than in a fortress, don’t we?

What is the right decision?

A) Model’s plan of a huge flanking ride through the desert?
B) Cambara’s plan to overrun the British lines at Solum?
C) Navarrini’s plan to assault Tobruk directly?
D) Schmidt’s plan to assault Fort Maddalena and then to give the garrison of Tobruk the chance to escape?

Stig

04-10-2007, 14:18

The Brits won't abandon Tobruk, but I like the look of Schmidts plan

D

SwordsMaster

04-10-2007, 14:42

Schmidt's plan is very reasonable.

DemonArchangel

04-10-2007, 16:56

Plan D. It's a good ruse, and they can either retreat, or just get cut off again. Even if they get cut off again, their supply situation would probably deteriorate to the point where they would have to surrender or face starvation.

If Plan D fails, then we go straight to Navarrini's plan. We have to take Tobruk as soon as possible. It's the only port that will supply us in our run to Alexandria.

Rodion Romanovich

04-10-2007, 18:53

D, since we're apprantly not able to supply ourselves that well east of Tobruk yet. I don't recall exactly how far Rommel historically advanced when sieging Tobruk, but IIRC he got further than the Bardia line, so I assume it's just a matter of time before our supply just east of Tobruk will be better, but still not good enough to allow any longer advance. The Bardia line, and avoiding a devastating assault on Tobruk, should thus be our goal.

AggonyDuck

04-10-2007, 20:11

I do not understand what you find so wonderful about Schmidt's plan. The British will not abandon Tobruk; it is a strongly fortified position that offers far greater protection than an open retreat ever would. Secondly it completely fails to meet the objective of any attack eastwards, that is reducing British combat power to allow us to assault Tobruk with our rear clean. Schmidt's plan has as its objective to force a British withdrawal and not to actually defeat them. If we do not strike and defeat these divisions now while we have the advantage, they will be soon be reinforced by several other divisions, which will be able to severely hamper our efforts against assaulting Tobruk.

Of the other plans; Model's plan is impossible supplywise and Navarrini's plan doesn't suit the current situation in my opinion. An assault against a fortified city needs meticulous planning, especially if it will involve small scale amphibious landings. Thus we should use the time needed for planning an assault against Tobruk to clear our rear. This leaves Cambara's plan left, which I find to be the most suitable for us.

It is a limited offensive that shouldn't overstretch our supply lines and has as its objective the defeat of the British formations and the occupation of important terrain. Additionally it is important that we launch the offensive east ASAP, while they are still weak and not allow the British to build up unchecked. After a British defeat we will be able to concentrate on a well planned assault against Tobruk with strong forces.

Thus I choose plan B and urge all of you to reconsider your decision; Schmidt's plan consists of half-measures, overly optimistic wishes and a distinct lack of élan, which is not what is required in this situation.

Rodion Romanovich

04-10-2007, 22:08

Well well, I may have misunderstood D... In the meantime, I'd like to point out that the urge to defeat smaller enemy groups before the British reinforcements arrive IMO doesn't apply in this case, from what we've seen so far. The defensive AT positions and air support have several times crippled tank reserves of both sides during offensive movements in previous chapters, so perhaps just establishing defense and waiting for the enemy reinforcements to come could be a better idea, if possible. An offensive could otherwise give us losses for a little gain of land, while inflicting few enemy losses and then putting us against a reinforced, rather fresh enemy.

Is it really impossible to form a defensive line east of Tobruk? What are our possibilities in this field, more exactly? Is it feasible without horrible losses and outrunning supply, to establish such a line? My view of D was to focus on establishing a defensive line, while manouvering a bit to provoke the British to either withdrawal or attack against our defensive line...

The only other option would be to assault Tobruk. Taking the port is the key of course - if we can just take the port but nothing else (except the necessary ground to defend and hold the port against the Australians), we have scored a major victory since it would mean rather easy trapping of 2 infantry divisions. So what defenses do the British have in the port more exactly, and how much time and troops would we need to take the port? How much land do they hold west and east of the port? What ground do we have to penetrate to succeed? Could we use our entire reserve of aircraft - bombers, fighters, dive bombers etc., and our almost entire artillery reserve for the task? Supported by the suggested amphibious landing...

AggonyDuck

04-10-2007, 23:35

Well you do have to consider that we have about 5-6 divisions to use against the three British divisions. We have three armoured divisions against the one British. These are as good as our odds will get. If we do not strike now, the odds will slowly but surely turn against us. Thus I believe only aggressive action, even limited such, is necessary to keep the odds favourable for us.

But that said, there is nothing wrong with Navarrini's plan, but it means that if/once Tobruk has been taken, we will be facing a far stronger British opponent, who will have had the opportunity to build up a formidable defensive barrier at Bardia and Sollum. Additionally they will be gaining a lot of armour, which means that our biggest advantage will be reduced. So I opt that we act now against the east to get better defensive ground and to atleast weaken the British, before turning our attention towards the British.

That said we have two options:

1. We first strike against the British in the East before turning our attention to assaulting Tobruk. It has the advantages of both seizing better defensive terrain and reducing British combat power. By reducing British offensive power it will keep our rear clean for the assault on Tobruk. After securing Tobruk, we turn back against the east, this time launching a massive offensive with the goal of securing a route to Egypt etc. The main advantage with this approach is that it makes sure that the British will have trouble building up a proper force for an offensive against our besieging forces.

2. We first assault Tobruk before launching an eastern offensive. This option uses the advantage of the British in the East being weak for now; but if we fail to capture Tobruk before the British reinforcements have arrived, we will be facing a major British relief attempt. Additionally when this counterattack would arrive we would face a stronger British force in a somewhat worse defensive terrain. Even after the capture of Tobruk, we will still face a significantly stronger British force in the east. There are two advantages with this option though; it will mean that our supply lines are less stretched and once we do launch an attack it will be a full scale offensive. The question is just if we can manage to either capture Tobruk before the British counterattack or if we will be able to beat back the British counterattack.

Both are decent options, it is just a matter of which is the better one. Personally I prefer to attack the British in the east before assaulting Tobruk.

DemonArchangel

04-11-2007, 01:16

Ok,I changed my mind, I want Option B. However, we should first take Fort Maddalena and Jarabub to secure our own flank before attacking the British.

Kagemusha

04-12-2007, 11:12

AggonyDuck

04-12-2007, 14:42

Option D. Its not like the British infantry Divisions could outrun our Panzer Divisions. We can run over the infantry divisions with ease when they are moving. We would have lot more harder time to destroy them when they are dug in.What makes the difference in our attacking effort against Tobruk will be the heavy artillery and the Pioneers. Its an old military truth that if you entrap your enemy completely he will fight to the end,becouse there is no escape. But when there is one,he routs more easily.:2thumbsup:

You forget that they already have an escape route, the sea, which is far more safe than any escape route on land could be. Additionally the British have practiced evacuations a lot during the war and they have not shown any signs of even preparing an evacuation.

As to the assault; a half-hearted attempt at assaulting Tobruk will not force the British divisions to withdraw, but only result in excessive casualties for us. Schmidt's plan consists of two half-measures, of which neither manages to do what is needed; we will not capture Tobruk with a plan like that nor will we destroy the two British divisions in the front. Atleast B or C allows us to do one of them, so I suggest you'd choose one of them instead.

Franconicus

04-12-2007, 14:45

By the way, do you know that during the 'real' battle of Bir Hakeim the oasis was defended by Free French troops. It was their first mission against German forces (at least on the ground). When they finally gave up, Hitler gave the order to kill them. Rommel ignored the order, gave them British uniforms and made them disappear in some prisoner camps.

Rodion Romanovich

04-12-2007, 15:30

@Franc: interesting, I seem to recall this story

==

I'd like to change from D to option B, after reviewing the options and latest chapters.

If supply and air support ratios can be acceptable at Bardia and Sollum (i.e. 1:1 or better in aircraft, and decent supply), it will mean a stronger German defensive line there than we can form at our current positions, and then the option would clearly be better.

The three main questions are:
1. do the British and Bardia and Sollum have any stronger AT positions and minefields? This affects whether we can hope to capture the ground with acceptable losses and before the British reinforcements arrive
2. how is the supply situation at Bardia and Sollum? This affects both offensive and the later defense of the line.
3. how will air support ratios be at the Bardia and Sollum line? This affects both offensive and the later defense of the line.

The previous chapter implied British air superiority there, but that was against an advance of one of our smaller units, not a full scale offensive. I suppose we can manage 1:1 or better air support situation if we now launch a full scale offensive. Supply should also be better now, after all we've held the ground around Tobruk for quite some time now. No. 1 I guess will be of too little strength to resist our 5 divisions to 2.

Franconicus

04-12-2007, 15:50

The three main questions are:
1. do the British and Bardia and Sollum have any stronger AT positions and minefields? This affects whether we can hope to capture the ground with acceptable losses and before the British reinforcements arrive
Yes. The British have prepared a line of defense. Not as strong as Tobruk, of course, but they do have ATGs and mines.
2. how is the supply situation at Bardia and Sollum? This affects both offensive and the later defense of the line.
Supply is a kind of problem, esp. for the defense. You already have to ship most of your supply to Tripoli and then transport it by trucks to the front. The road is long and not in a very good condition. Benghazi and Derna are too small for a big amount of supply. If you want to get things east of Tobruk, you have to leave the Via Bardia and drive across the desert, always keeping out of the range of the British fortress artillery. This take time and ruins the trucks. The Italians started to build a ppeline for water to Tobruk. Hoth also ordered to improve the Via Barida and to build a bypass around Tobruk. However, this takes time and esp. the pipeline will be an excellen target for the Brits.
3. how will air support ratios be at the Bardia and Sollum line? This affects both offensive and the later defense of the line.
You only know that the British receive more planes, too. Most of them seem to be bombers, but also a number of Hurricanes. You estimate that you have equal numbers.

Kagemusha

04-12-2007, 16:15

You forget that they already have an escape route, the sea, which is far more safe than any escape route on land could be. Additionally the British have practiced evacuations a lot during the war and they have not shown any signs of even preparing an evacuation.

As to the assault; a half-hearted attempt at assaulting Tobruk will not force the British divisions to withdraw, but only result in excessive casualties for us. Schmidt's plan consists of two half-measures, of which neither manages to do what is needed; we will not capture Tobruk with a plan like that nor will we destroy the two British divisions in the front. Atleast B or C allows us to do one of them, so I suggest you'd choose one of them instead.

Well we can hope all we want.But if you look at the history Germans were never able to take Tobruk. What is now different then what was in history? We have actually heavy artillery and pioneers to take that fort.As you sayed,sitting around doesnt do much good. So we have to push them on the move and then destroy them.

Rodion Romanovich

04-12-2007, 16:17

Thanks! I think I'll stick to B, but this was a difficult one.

DemonArchangel

04-12-2007, 18:15

Well we can hope all we want.But if you look at the history Germans were never able to take Tobruk. What is now different then what was in history? We have actually heavy artillery and pioneers to take that fort.As you sayed,sitting around doesnt do much good. So we have to push them on the move and then destroy them.

But they're NOT LEAVING TOBRUK. They're not going anywhere. They're just going to stay put there, so we might as well clean out our rear before doing that assault that we're going to have to do eventually.

Kagemusha

04-12-2007, 18:40

Stig

04-12-2007, 18:43

My guess is that the Brits will simply destroy Tobruks harbour, so it will take us 5 months plus to clear it, and that they will retreat.

I think that's the best thing to do for them.

AggonyDuck

04-12-2007, 20:06

Do you have some information i dont have? If we encircle them completely,yes absolutely they are not leaving. But if we are threatening their flank we give them a choice to be encircled completely and leave Egypt open for attacks or withdraw most of their forces to protect Egypt.Which would make our job easier both in Tobruk and later in Egypt. If the British stay put we would need three times the forces they have inside the encirclement to clear it.If we push them and show them an exit they might split their forces.Leaving two divisions to Tobruk and trying to create an defensive line East to Tobruk,with secure railroad to supply their troops.

The current situation is such that two divisions are encircled in Tobruk and there are four Allied divisions in the east, which are going to receive reinforcements rather soon. Some pages back there is a situational overview map by Franc, I suggest you take a look at it.

Stig:

Tobruk has a deep natural harbour, which means it is almost indestructible. That is why we haven't been able to stop the flow of supplies to Tobruk with our airforce. Only a heavy use of blockships might make it unuseable, but I doubt the Brits will do that.

But that said the British will not evacuate the Tobruk defenders unless there is a very serious risk that the town is falling. As long as they are able to fight, they will continue to hold on to it.

Stig

04-13-2007, 07:09

Every harbour can be destroyed from the inside out.
Sink some ships in it and you keep the enemy busy for atleast month or so.

Kagemusha

04-13-2007, 08:08

The current situation is such that two divisions are encircled in Tobruk and there are four Allied divisions in the east, which are going to receive reinforcements rather soon. Some pages back there is a situational overview map by Franc, I suggest you take a look at it.

Stig:

Tobruk has a deep natural harbour, which means it is almost indestructible. That is why we haven't been able to stop the flow of supplies to Tobruk with our airforce. Only a heavy use of blockships might make it unuseable, but I doubt the Brits will do that.

But that said the British will not evacuate the Tobruk defenders unless there is a very serious risk that the town is falling. As long as they are able to fight, they will continue to hold on to it.

It seems im out of touch,becouse i didnt have much time last week to check the operation.:oops: If there is indeed no contact between the two British groups,D is not feasible plan. So by all means execute plan B.

Franconicus

04-13-2007, 11:40

kage is right. Rommel advanced to the coast, but was forced to retreat to the El Adem/Capuzzo position. The road at the coast is open for the Brits.

Kagemusha

04-13-2007, 13:10

Ok.In that case D it is. British must know that we have superior force now and threatening their flank while giving them push on the nose should push them on retreat.They cant withdraw their troops from Tobruk via sea,when it will completely surrounded becouse we can close the advance of ships by artilllery and 88 cross fire+ airforce.

AggonyDuck

04-13-2007, 13:21

kage is right. Rommel advanced to the coast, but was forced to retreat to the El Adem/Capuzzo position. The road at the coast is open for the Brits.

That does bring up the question, why hasn't Tobruk been cut off directly east of it? According to the information you have provided there are no major formations protecting the road between Bardia and Tobruk, which does mean that we should had been able to cut it off over there. Is the RAF so strong that we cannot reach the coast due to them?

If we cannot even manage a simple task like cutting off the road to Tobruk, then why are we even thinking about offensives against Sollum and Bardia or the oh so far away Fort Magdalena? It is really starting to look like the only plan within our current capabilities is an assault against Tobruk, which is a very reasonable plan.

Rodion Romanovich

04-13-2007, 15:20

Well, under such circumstances, I agree to assaulting Tobruk. However, this needs a carefully thought-out plan! Are there any maps of fortifications around Tobruk? Or at least a hint of how far we have to advance from our current frontmost positions to reach the Tobruk harbor? As I said before, take the harbor and be able to hold it, and we've basically won the battle of Tobruk. After that, the semi-open eastern path is excellent to strike from the flank against enemies retreating by land, or if they decide to push on, there'll be more enemies caught in the pocket, or alternatively we'll get a new battle on the southern flank, which I believe we have great advantages in and would win again. Especially with control over the Tobruk harbor, which would be a great starting point for a strong offensive towards Sollum and Bardia.

Franconicus

04-13-2007, 20:59

That does bring up the question, why hasn't Tobruk been cut off directly east of it? According to the information you have provided there are no major formations protecting the road between Bardia and Tobruk, which does mean that we should had been able to cut it off over there. Is the RAF so strong that we cannot reach the coast due to them?

You can advance to the sea whenever you want. There are two problems, though. First, there is only a narrow stripe that can neither be reached by the fortress artillery nor the artillery from the eastern brits. This stripe is not ideal for a defensive position. There are no roads to supply it, it has to be done via open desert.

Second, the coutry is open. The RAF is as strong as the Luftwaffe. You would have casualties!

Kagemusha

04-14-2007, 03:03

Nevermind.

Franconicus

04-14-2007, 20:26

If I summarize right, we have three votes for B (DA, Legio, A Duck) and three for D (SM, Stig, Kage).

Someone help me (maybe K.K.) or this is going to end as a static warfare!

discovery1

04-15-2007, 02:42

Vote: B since it seems more likely then hoping the garrison of T walks into our obvious killing fields

King Kurt

04-16-2007, 10:15

Hi everybody - been away for a week.

Tricky situation I believe - we can't assault Tobruk, and I can't see the English leaving as suggested in D. That leaves B as the best choice, but that has its problems. However, if we defeat the troops defending the road to Alex then the 2 divisions bottled up in Tobruk might feel the need to come out.

So - I go for B.

Franconicus

04-16-2007, 14:00

Chapter 53 – Operation ‘Ikarus’
Libya, June 16th – 21st

There is a long, controversial discussion. Rommel and Model support Schmidt’s plan, Cambara and Navarrini prefer a more direct attack. Finally Hoth decides to follow Cambara’s proposal. The conference has shown another thing too: the German and Italian generals do not agree on what is the appropriate strategy.
On June 16th the divisions move to their starting positions. On June 18th the deployment is finished and Cambara’s Mobile Corps is opening the battle by attacking the 10. Indian Division between Sollum and Maddalena. Trieste makes the opening assault, while Ariete and Brescia are still waiting. Behind the Italians divisions Rommel’s 15. and 21. Panzerdivision get ready.
Although the German and Italian air forces support the operation of Trieste, the Indians are able to hold the fort. On the next morning the Italians continue the operation, this time with Brescia joining the Trieste. However, at the first light of day, an Indian regiment coming from Maddalena attacks the southern flank of the Italians and slows down the advance. Cambara sends the 32. Tank Regiment of Ariete to drive the Indians back and to secure the southern flank. The Italian tanks are successful and follow the Indians to the fortifications of Maddalena.
During June 18th the Indians have to give way. They retreat towards Rabia. Cambara regroups. Brescia encircles Fort Maddalena, while Trieste and Ariete follow the Indians. The two German tank divisions close ranks. They advance north in direction to Sollum.
All these operations are supported by the Luftwaffe. The German planes dominate the sky over the battleground. Casualties are low; however, the combat strength goes down due to engine failures.
In the night between June 18th and 19th there are a lot of activities in the harbor of Tobruk, especially during night. Around midnight, a large convoy leaves the town heading for Bardia. During the same night the British raid a supply convoy on the road from Gazala to Capuzzo. About 70 trucks are destroyed; in the morning, the British raiders are gone.
On June 20th the battle goes on and spreads out. 3. PD drives around the fortifications of Tobruk and reaches the shores east of the town. 15. and 21. PD attack Sollum, but the Australians are able to repel the first assault. In the east Trieste and Ariete receive the order to abandon prosecution and to turn north. With this turn Cambara tries to cut off the Australians and to support the German tank divisions.
In the evening, the British commander decides to retreat. The garrison of Bardia leaves the town. During the next day, 6 Australian Division retreats to the new Sidi Barani line. The Axis air forces are trying to intercept, but on this day, the RAF deploys all its force and can repel the German bombers as well as slow down the German and Italian tank formations.
On June 21st German tank units occupy Sollum and Bardia.

In the evening, the commanders of the corps meet at Hoth’s HQ.
Cambara: “We achieved all goals of operation “Ikarus”. Solum and Bardia are occupied; Fort Maddalena is besieged by Brescia. Our casualties are rather low. Within a week we can reach almost nominal combat strength again.”
Rommel: “The enemy is building a new line of defense between Sidi Barani and Rabia. Rabia is on a plateau, there are only few serpentines to get down to the coast. The line is defended by the Australian 6. Division, the Indian 10. Division and another Infantry division. The 7. Armored is most probably behind that line. We have Ariete, Trieste as well as the 15. and 21. PD there.”
Navarrini: “Tobruk is encircled from three sides, now. We have there Trento in the west, Bologna in the south and the 3. PD in the east. We estimate that there is about one division inside the fortress. There is busy traffic in the harbor, esp. during night. We do not know if the British evacuate the town or bring reinforcements.”
Hoth: “Thank you, Gentlemen, and thank you also for the performance of your divisions. I think we are in an excellent position, now and can decide whether we assault Tobruk, now, or whether we advance further into Egypt. Or maybe even both. I think we can decide this tomorrow morning!”
In the evening another General arrives at the HQ. It is Paulus again. He comes straight to Ramcke: “Ramcke, Keitel sends me. What is going on, here? Hoth has four tank divisions, now. However, we still are where we had already been four weeks ago. Tobruk is still held by the British. Hitler is furious and so is Keitel. The Panzergruppe Afrika has to defeat the British and it has to defeat them now! It is mandatory to reach the objectives in time. There is no time to loose. Do you know what is going on outside the desert?”
Ramcke: “No!”
Paulus: “The Americans are about to enter war. Their attitude and their words are getting more and more aggressive. Roosevelt is going to send huge amounts of material to support the British. Very soon you will see US planes and tanks here in Africa. He allows US ships to transport it straight into the Red Sea. US ships patrol in the Atlantic and protect British ships. Our submarine warfare is getting more and more difficult. Roosevelt is looking for a cause for war and he will find one within this year.
Have you heard what is going on at Finland? As soon as Soviet soldiers entered the country, there were protests and demonstrations of the population. They tried to block the roads. At first, the Soviets stopped. The Finnish government ordered the police and army to clear the streets. However, the Finnish staff refused to. It was a kind of putsch. Then the Russians fired at the civilians. They advanced quite fast, because the Finnish army was not prepared to resist. There was no combined defense. The Russians soon seized the capital. They arrested most of the Finnish generals and formed a new, soviet government. This new government immediately made a military pact with Russia.”
“What did Hitler do?”
“What could he do? Of course he was furious, very furious. But he could not support the Finnish. All he did was sending another Gebirgsjägerdivision to Norway. It is high time to finish the British, so we can deal with the Americans and Russians.”
“What did the English do?”
“Nothing at all.”

DemonArchangel

04-16-2007, 15:33

Tell Keitel to calm down. We're about to launch the assault on Tobruk. Taking Tobruk would remove the British from Libya.

Before launching the assault on Tobruk, make sure Fort Maddalena falls, then form a defensive line at Halfaya Pass to block off any British attempts to relieve the garrison at Tobruk.

The Soviet takeover of Finland is quite worrying, as is the American desire to go to war. I agree that the British have to be defeated as soon as possible.

As for our future offensives, the war in Egypt will be one of attrition. There are several chokepoints along our advance, such as at El-Alamein. After taking Tobruk, we'll have to requisition ever more supplies, especially artillery, engineer and air support, as we will have to do several breakthrough battles and city assaults (Alexandria and Cairo come to mind immediately).

Another place to attack would be Crete.

Questions About Crete:

*Can we get access to the Luftlande?
*Are the Italian airborne divisions ready?
*How is our training/equipment going?
*What are British defenses on that island like?

Rodion Romanovich

04-16-2007, 17:06

Well done!

The next step is of course to take Tobruk, since we can't hope to supply an advance further east in any other way. If the estimation of 1 division in Tobruk is correct, then a hard push towards the harbor has a chance of rather easily cutting off the remaining forces and make their evacuation impossible. Advancing further to the east before achieving this will only mean outrunning supplies and getting more casualties due to reduced strength due to this, engine failures and difficulties in bringing our air support forward. However, we should also continue the process of securing Ft Maddalena. Luftwaffe fighters should concentrate on covering the eastern front, while some of the bombers should be dispatched to the Tobruk harbor offensive. The Tobruk harbor offensive should be supported by a simultanous amphibious landing if possible.

AggonyDuck

04-16-2007, 17:07

Well it wasn't the annihilating victory that I had hoped for, but it will have to do. Now it's time to start concentrating our efforts against Tobruk while holding the fort at Sollum and Bardia.

discovery1

04-17-2007, 05:12

As for our future offensives, the war in Egypt will be one of attrition.

Need this be the case? Would it not be possible to somehow lure the Empire forces into launching an offensive against us. We give way in certain areas and then launch a counter attack? Say we could make it look like our losses taking Tobruk were greater then they actually were(hard I know since the divs at the front aren't going to do much about Tobruk), or maybe some were 'pulled out' for a war with Russia?

And I don't think it would be that hard to simply isolate Cairo. It's not a port like Alexandria, plus I wouldn't be surprised if the populance of these cities is very hostile to the British. Say, what has been done about getting to locals to rise against the British? Not yet, of course, but latter after El-Aleman has been taken.

DemonArchangel

04-17-2007, 05:23

Need this be the case? Would it not be possible to somehow lure the Empire forces into launching an offensive against us. We give way in certain areas and then launch a counter attack? Say we could make it look like our losses taking Tobruk were greater then they actually were(hard I know since the divs at the front aren't going to do much about Tobruk), or maybe some were 'pulled out' for a war with Russia?

And I don't think it would be that hard to simply isolate Cairo. It's not a port like Alexandria, plus I wouldn't be surprised if the populace of these cities is very hostile to the British. Say, what has been done about getting to locals to rise against the British? Not yet, of course, but latter after El-Alamein has been taken.

I'm operating on the assumption that the British are going to play to their strengths, and thus try as hard as they can to turn the war in North Africa into one of attrition. If we can see an opening, we will exploit it, but at this point, it's best to prepare for the worst.

Stig

04-17-2007, 07:15

What's Turkeys stance on the war atm?

Franconicus

04-18-2007, 06:52

What's Turkeys stance on the war atm?

Turkey wants to stay neutral as long as possible. By the way, Turkey is filled with Russian, American, English and German diplomats and agents.

The English tried to form an alliance with Turkey and Greece, but they failed. The Russians are putting a lot of pressure against Turkey to get the strait, but until now Turkey resisted.

After all Turkey is friendly, supplies Germany with some resources, but does not want to join a military pact.

Is there any time goal for the assault of Tobruk you would like to give to Navarrini?

DemonArchangel

04-18-2007, 14:14

To Navarrini: Tobruk should fall by the end of June.

AggonyDuck

04-19-2007, 09:27

Tobruk should fall before the 10th of July.

Franconicus

04-19-2007, 09:38

Chapter 54 – Tobruk
Tobruk, June 22nd – 27th

Next morning Hoth gives his orders. The Italian XXI. Corps will attack Tobruk directly. It will be supported by German artillery, pioneers and the 3. PD as well as by the German and Italian air forces. Navarrini has the lead. In parallel, Trieste will attack Fort Maddalena and Rommel will seize Halfaya Pass. Hoth makes it clear that Tobruk has to fall before end of June.
In the early morning of June 23rd the bombardment of Tobruk begins. It lasts two days. On June 25th, after the long and intense artillery fire and air bombardment, Bologna starts to prize the defensive ring of Tobruk. 30. and 40. Infantry Regiment assault supported by the 46. Artillery Regiment: 11,000 men, 262 light mg, 232 heavy mg, 111 small mortars, 12 heavy mortars, 16 AAA, 24 ATG, 16 inf. Guns, 16 field guns, 8 howitzers, 46 L3/35 tankettes.
Although the artillery fire has cleared most of the mines and barricades, the soldiers of Bologna can only advance slowly. The British welcome them with artillery and infantry weapons. Stukas attack the British strongholds and around noon three holds are eliminated. Now the Italians stuck on the hard ground. The sun is burning and they cannot move without being shot. Italian tankettes try to support the attack. However, within a quarter of an hour most of them are shot by ATGs. While the war on the ground is standing still, the war in the sky goes on; Axis planes bomb the British positions; Hurricanes from the fortress airfields try to intercept them.
When night falls, the British gather their reserves to drive the Italians back. Navarrini sends the 61. Regiment to reinforce the Italians. However, in a nightly infantry battle, the Italians are slowly pushed back to their starting positions.
Around midnight, several Italian divers of the Special Forces penetrate the harbour facilities. They ignite several bombs, blowing harbour a freight ship and barriers up. The explosions cause some confusion among the British soldiers. Simultaneously the Luftwaffe bombs targets at the eastern side of the town.
German pioneers use the chaos to approach unnoticed the British lines on the eastern side of the fortress. They manage to clear a path through the mines and barricade and reach the first strongholds. Before the British guards notice them, there are huge detonations and there is a hole in the outer defence ring. This is the sign for Model’s tank division to join in. Artillery shells the British positions; infantry is running across the battlefield, followed by German tanks. The remaining bunkers open fire on the Germans, the tanks try silencing them. The pioneers push themselves further. They blow up the anti tank trench and penetrate the second line of defence. With flamethrowers and hollow explosive charges they overpower one bunker after the other. The English soldiers cannot stand the pressure. At the break of day, the Germans break through. The gate is open and the first tanks waltz into town.
In the morning, the British find themselves attacked from two sides, as the Italians renew their efforts to break through the British lines from southwest. Inside the town there is panic. The first tanks appear in the street and the Luftwaffe keeps on bombing the town. Chaos and destruction everywhere! The lines of communication break down. Without orders British soldiers blow up magazines and harbor facilities. The town is covered with smoke. The Luftwaffe is forced to stop the bombardment, because the sight is so poor.
At 14:00 the commander of the fortress surrenders. However, most of his troops are isolated and do not receive this message. The fighting goes on for the rest of the day. Even during night there is shooting in the streets.
During the same night the RAF flies a massive raid against Tobruk. 300 bombers throw fire bombs on the town.
On June 26th the battle of Tobruk is over. 16,000 soldiers of the British Empire lay down their weapons, mainly soldier of the British 6th Infantry Division.. But the prize for the Axis is high. The Italians have 5,000 dead, missed or wounded, the Germans have 1,400. 80 tanks are destroyed, 40 planes are lost.
In the meantime the German advanced commands reach Halfaya and find that the British are gone. Only Maddalena is still held by the Indians. All attempts to assault the fort fail.
After having received the news about Tobruk, Rommel begins to follow the British eastwards. On June 27th Axis soldiers occupy Sidi Barrani, Mireiwa and Rabia, the first Egyptian towns are in the hand of the Axis. Then Rommel runs out of fuel and has to stop his advance.
General Student arrives on June 27th to meet Ramcke. He comes from the Italian capitol and has good and bad news.
The Italian resistance at East Africa is coming to an end. Most of the Italian troops have already surrendered. This means that the British will soon be able to send two or three divisions to Egypt.
Mussolini has decided to send another infantry division to Africa. Savona has to secure the area around Savona. Furthermore, the Italian Supreme Command has decided to withdraw Pavia from the XXI. Corps and to leave it at the Cyreneika to secure this area against British raids.
The first Italian paratroop division Folgore will be ready for combat mid-August. Student also reports that the two German para divisions will be fully equipped and trained end of August. However, there will not be enough transport capacity to deploy more than one division at a time.
The Luftlandedivision has returned from Romania. Hitler wants to keep it as a strategic reserve in case that the Germans have to answer a Russian or American aggression. However, Student says, if there is an urgent request, Hitler could change his mind.
Bad news from Finland. Most of the military leaders have been shot. The Finnish puppet regime has asked the USSR to join the republic. Stalin generously accepted. Finland is now another Soviet Republic. Of course there are riots, but the Russians are keeping order with brutal force.
Of course Hoth and his staff are relieved that to have access to a harbor. Alexandria is only 200 km away. However, there is little time to party. New plans have to be made. The British are building a new line of defense at Mersah Matruh, with three or four infantry divisions and one armored division. The Indians are still holding fort at Maddalena. Deep in the south there are British bases at Jarabub, Siwa and Kufra. Furthermore, British bomber can raid Tobruk from Cretan bases.

Rodion Romanovich

04-19-2007, 11:05

Nice chapter!

We've done pretty well so far, but we shouldn't get overambitious because of these successes. Rather, I think we should now concentrate on three things:
1. holding our eastern line, getting it well supplied, digging in, getting air support close to the front, building up ATG positions and AT minefields. We should also not advance any further (except moderate advances to capture better defensive ground if needed) until we have established airfields close to the front. We should for the coming advance into the Egypt be prepared to, at any time (due to the threat of British raids on Tobruk etc), suddenly run out of supply, and be prepared to deal with such a situation. This means we need to advance carefully and not rely on too critical manouvers.

2. Crete might at first sight seem like a good idea to capture, but IMO it's better if we let the British keep a garrison there, wasting men that could else be used by them in North Africa. I believe the British will use their ability to bomb Tobruk a lot now to turn this thing into attrition war. Tobruk is the only real target in North Africa that they have anything to gain from bombing apart from our frontline. We should take advantage of this fact, and ask the Italians to stock up huge amounts of AA weaponry in Tobruk, enough to make the British raids more expensive in terms of fighter losses than in how much damage they can do to our troops to the east by lowering their supply levels. We should build up the largest FLAK battery ever heard of, to make sure a 300 planes bomber raid costs 50 planes or so for them. Then we wait for the British to come... and they WILL come ... then we open up with about 1/3rd of the battery until they get close enough, after which we let the entire battery come into action. After a few months we could weaken this battery again.

3. clearing up a bit. Taking Fort Maddalena and defeating the Indians. With the arrival of more British divisions from East Africa, we had better free up the troops we have outside this fort. However, we should emphasize more on keeping casualties down, than on capturing the fort quickly. The British should have trouble supplying that garrison, so perhaps we can make them surrender without a fight, or draw in British supply planes, which gives us a good chance of shooting down large number of British bombers, before we assault. Additionally, perhaps it's time to use the FJs again? Siwa could be a good target. Other good ideas could be to use the FJs to land behind British lines in Egypt, perhaps at British airfields, to capture them and destroy British planes (esp. fighters) to make the rest of our offensive easier. We need a raiding weapon comparable to the British SAS...

King Kurt

04-19-2007, 11:20

So we have Tobruk, but at a price - nearly 7,000 casualties, 80 tanks and 50 planes. More importantly, no Australians captured - so where are they?? Supplies are short - Rommel's tanks have no fuel - and how difficult will it be to restock. Perhaps we should attack Crete - but it sounds like the garrison is a lot stronger than it was in the real 1941 - Crete had virtually no planes for example.
I think a short pause and regroup is advisable.

Stig

04-19-2007, 13:06

Out of supplies, Tobruk destroyed, and one division gone.

I suggest:
That Tobruks harbour should be fully in action by the end of July.
Since we lost a division (Pavia) we ask for 2 fresh German divisions, preferably some damned good divisions (we should secure those quickly, in real Barbarossa already started, maybe Hoth should travel to Hitler in person)
We keep the British busy, but won't attack in mass-scale till the FJ divisions are here.

Maybe German Diplomats should offer Turkey large parts of Armenia, Greece and other regions Turkey would like. It would be good to have Turkey as a fighting ally. Sides they could attack into Arabia.

DemonArchangel

04-19-2007, 17:26

At this current point, we need to dig in and regroup. Detail an Italian division to guard Tobruk. Also, refortify Tobruk in case we ever need to retreat from Egypt.

Ask Hitler for some extra artillery and flak regiments. We're going to need extra flak to defend Tobruk's harbor against the British air raids, and more to defend against the RAF as we advance east.

The extra artillery is to break through the chokepoints at El-Alamein and lay siege to Alexandria.

Things to ask Higher for:
*More Flak
*More Artillery
*More Planes
*Research on new weapons (I think it's at a standstill right now).

Things We Must Do:
*Take Crete: We must do this despite the high casualties, as the advance in North Africa cannot really continue without it. Most of our important supplies, like fuel, spare parts for tanks and men, should continue to arrive from Tripoli, at least until Crete is secured. We can't fix the port at Tobruk until Crete falls.

*Take Fort Maddalena and Jarabub: This would secure our southern flank and make it more difficult for the British to raid our supply convoys from the east.

*Get to Alexandria: We need to get to Alexandria as soon as possible. Wait until mid-August before advancing again, so that we can build up enough supplies to advance from Mersa Matruh straight through to Alexandria, not giving the British any time to settle in at Alamein. I propose that we begin advancing again in conjunction with an attack on Crete.

*Compile a Lessons Learned Report:
There are certain few things we have to note:
*British troops will fight tenaciously when surrounded.
*City assaults are bloody, we need new tactics and equipment to deal specifically with attacking and taking cities.
(and others if you want to suggest them)

Franconicus

04-20-2007, 09:20

Chapter 55 – At the gates of Egypt
East of Tobruk, July 11th

Two weeks are gone since the seizure of Tobruk. The Germans and their allies have used this time to repair the harbor facilities and to supply their units. Now the fuel tanks are filled, again. What is even more important, there is enough water. It is July and the sun is burning down without any mercy, straining men and material. The desert takes its toll. More and more soldiers are sick or simply exhausted.

The harbor of Tobruk is working again. There have been no more British air raids; just a recon plane or two. Nevertheless, Hoth placed a lot of air defense batteries there to protect this strategic point. German and Italian freight ships can bring supply and reinforcements close to the front, now. However, yesterday a ship was hit by a torpedo right in front of the harbor. It carried fuel and the torpedo turned it into a bonfire that could be seen in a hundred miles range.

Now that the divisions are supplied, the tank commanders urge Hoth to advance again. Hoth discusses the status reports with Ramcke and Paulus. Bologna is definitely out of the game for the moment. The 3. PD has lost one fourth of its tank force. The rest of the divisions are more or less ready for combat. Ready for combat? Many men are reported sick; most men are exhausted from the heat and the terrible conditions at the front. Anyway, Hitler needs another victory; the soldiers will win another victory. It is as simple as that, isn’t it?

Ramcke knows that they do not have time to waste. Paulus told him that aircrafts from the United States Navy start antisubmarine patrols from bases in Newfoundland. It is only a question of time, when there will be the first military conflict in the Northern Atlantic. Only a questions of months, or weeks. Then Roosevelt will have his cause for war. The Germans have to end the war with the British before the Americans will deploy. They have to finish it here in the desert.

Ramcke also knows the reports of intelligence. There are American long range planes already on the British islands. Sooner or later American planes will appear in Africa, too. There are US tanks on the way across the sea, hundreds of brand new tanks. No, the time has come to end the war.
Intelligence also says that there are two infantry divisions currently disembarking at Suez; that the Desert Air Force has received about 60 new fighters and an undefined number of bombers. And there is another tank division coming from Britain.

Reconnaissance has shown that the British have built a new line at Mersa Matruh. This is the end of their railroad. There they can get as much supply as they need. The line is about 30 km long and there are about two or three divisions. Behind that line is the British armoured division. It will be hard work to break through this line. According to information received from POWs there is a huge storage of fuel and equipment at Mersa Matruh.
Maddalena finally fell on July 6th. 2,500 Indians, almost dead of thirst, give up the fight. However, there are still British garrisons at Jarabub and Siwa. They keep on sending patrols to raid the German supply lines. Additionally Gladiators from Kufra attack the German supply lines, mainly at dawn.
Paulus: “Gentlemen, I phoned with Berlin this morning. Keitel thinks that it is time to start and invasion with the objective Alexandria and Cairo. We have three German tank divisions and one Italian as well as three Italian infantry divisions. On the British side there are three or four divisions. We can overwhelm them before the British are getting stronger.”
Hoth: “Well, nevertheless, it will be hard to break through this strong line of defense.”

Paulus: “It won’t become easier if we wait. We have to break through and we have to keep enough tanks as a reserve so we can take advantage of the break through. My proposal is that we copy the plan of our last operations. We place the Italians in the north and the German divisions in the south. While the Italians are doing a faint attack, the German tank divisions bypass the British in the desert and get into their rear.”

Ramcke: “Isn’t that too obvious. I mean, there is hardly an element of surprise in that plan. The British will anticipate that. Why shouldn’t we do the opposite? Let us deploy the way you suggested, but let us try to break through along the coast. Once the Italians are through, the British front will collapse and the German tanks can roll straight through it, heading for El Alamein and Alexandria.”

Paulus: “The plan may be obvious, just because it is dictated by the landscape. I doubt that the Italians will be able to break through all alone.”
Hoth: “Well, we could combine both. Let the German and Italians attack at the same time. The British will not know where to turn to and before they make up their minds, we are through. Then we can push further until we reach the channel.”
Paulus: “What about the English reinforcements. Do you think we will be able to defeat them?”

Hoth: “Don’t forget that we will receive new forces, too. The 4. PD has reached Naples, now. They are only waiting for a transport to Africa. By the way, we have to decide where their destination should be.”
Ramcke: “Shall we call for more troops?”

Paulus: “I advice caution. You asked Hitler for four German tank divisions and three air corps and you have them. You asked for additional special units, and you received them. I have the impression that the Führer now expects you to give him a big victory. Keitel told me that Hitler already asked: “Is Hoth one of those commanders that are looking what is behind them?” Furthermore I doubt that we can supply more than we have right now. We have to defeat the British here and now, and we have to do it with what we’ve got!”

The three generals discuss for a while. There are many open questions. The answers will decide the fate of the campaign – and of the war!

What is the right operation plan?
A1 A faint attack in the north while the German tanks bypass through the desert?
A2 A break through along the coast?
A3 A combined attack with all forces?

Where do you want to send the 4. PD?
B1 Send them to Tripoli. The passage is rather safe. However, it will take at least four weeks until they arrive at Tobruk.
B2 Send them straight to Tobruk. That is what we took the harbor for. We can spare at least two weeks!

What about Crete?
C1) Ignore it. It will loose its importance as soon as we seize Alexandria. And the more British soldiers are bound there the better!
C2) Assault it. We could use the Fallschirmjäger, even though they do not have full strength, now. The seizure of Crete is a precondition for our victory.
C3) Bomb Crete. We can neutralize it for a while, long enough to conquer Egypt.

What about Jarabub, Siwa and Kufra?
D1) Take Trieste to occupy these points.
D2) Ignore them!

Kagemusha

04-20-2007, 10:00

Am i right that we now posses part of the railroad line also from Tobruk towards Alexandria? If so,it should help us a lot to supply our offensive. We should build a series of supply depots along the railroad line,so the flow of supply wont be hampered even if the railroad will be damaged for a short while.
For the attack i think that now is the time for deciseve battle. So attack with all forces possible so A3. Attack the outnumbered enemy that has been beaten already from all sides using both flanking and schwer punkt and they will brake.
Also i think it would be foolish not to demand reinforcements. We are heading for a huge battle with possibly huge casulties.If we break through we need fresh forces immediately to use our victory well.So i think we should ask for an German infantry corps immediately and explain that we need it to occupy Egypt.
About 4PD send them straight to Tobruk, so B2 . If we engage the English forces on huge battle,their air capacity will be bogged against our fighting forces and we need fresh troops badly to act as reserve,so there is no sense on marching them the long way.
About Cretes,bomb it,but not from Africa,but from Greece,this should neutralize their aerial attacks from there,or atleast hamper them a lot. So C3There is no sense on loosing huge casulties in Cretes,when the battle will be decided in Egypt. Maybe the fallschirm jäger should be used as airmobile reserve in Africa. Deploying them in the enemys rear on right moment could have devastating effects.
Last focus the forces on the deciseve battle. The British oasis forces,can be dealed with when the main force is destroyed.So D2. Ofcourse use patrols and air surveilance to limit their attacks on our supply lines.

Franconicus

04-20-2007, 10:19

You are wrong. The Alexandria railroad ends at Mera Matruh.

By the way, what do say about the Finnish?

Stig

04-20-2007, 11:10

First of all it's vital that we take every single British petrol dump.
I believe we have some Brandenburgers, lets send them behind enemy lines and let them be ready to take the petrol dumps as soon as we attack.
Now for the attack:
The Italians will do a faint attack along the coast.
After that 2 of the 3 German panzer divisions will start their swing.
If the British learned well they will now move more units south.
At that point the Italian Mobile and Armoured divisions should start engines again and push through. That should break them.
We start with a massive artillery bombing, and during the advance we should at all time be covered by the Luftwaffe and Stukas.
The Alexandria Railroad should be attacked by Stukas.

Furthermore
B2
C3
D1

Any change on a map?

Kagemusha

04-20-2007, 11:13

You are wrong. The Alexandria railroad ends at Mera Matruh.

By the way, what do say about the Finnish?

In that case we are back at square one,only this time the British line is not such a fortress then Tobruk was.Basicly the options will have to stay anyway.What we need to do is not run through the desert towards the British force,but march organiced and create supply depots along the way. Atleast we have the deep sea port of Tobruk and major road to use between Tobruk and English positions. March in coordinated spread out engage and destroy the British.

About Finland. Like i earlier sayed,this kind of scenario could have never happened in reality. I know little history and from that i know the Finnish history best. After the Winter War the sentiment in Finland was immediately that the peace wouldnt last. Finnish government´s first actions after peace was to start bying as much weapons outside as possible and boosting the Finnish own military industry.
In the army all the new conscripts were kept in service and the army started large projects of building defensive lines and fortifications in the inner Finland. There was half a million Karelian refugees that had lost their homes in Karelia and they were swearing revenge to Russia.
No Finnish government would have ever allowed Soviet troops to enter Finland,instead Finland was looking for allies to take back the lands lost in Winter War. If there was one country in 1941 that was hostile to Soviet Union in Europe at that time,it was Finland.
So by supported with these facts i think the situation in Finland at this campaign is at best most unlikely and there should be atleast open guerrialla warfare going on in Finland at the moment.
Also i suggest you should study about the Suojeluskunta organisation. It was not part of the army,but an large organisation that worked together with the army. Large percent of Finns belonged to the organisation and the intresting thing about those members was that they possessed full military kits including weapons personally and i think these men who were in voluntary service to protect Finland would have immediately organiced the base for resistance against Soviet occupation.:yes:

Franconicus

04-20-2007, 11:45

Well, maybe you are right. I know that the Finish are a people of warriors and that they did not like th Russians at all. However, our scenario is not like the real one. Finland has no allies at all. Germany does not supply weapons, because it cannot risk any differences with Stalin, at least at the moment. The British are not able to help, neither are the Americans.

Stalin on the other side, has to do something to improve the position of Russia in this war. Hitler is busy at the moment, but that could change. If there would be a German / Russian conflict, it would have been good to have the Finland eliminated. Furthermore, Finland has some valuable resources.

Stalin had to react on the German occupation of the Balkans and the engagement in the desert. At Romania and Bulgaria, he was too late. The only options are Finland and Turkey. Finland was already defeated and from his geography completly isolated. I think that Stalin had enough power to force the Finish government into a kind of alliance. Surely the Finish wanted to get rid of that as soon as possible.

I also thinkthat it is quite reasonable that the Finish people would not have accepted this. Therefore, they started to demonstrate and block the Russians. As a consequence, there was another occupation of Russia. The Red Army was well prepared for this conflict, while the position of the government and the riots caused a lot of confusion among the Finish and made it impossible to organize defense.

So the Russians could seize the towns rapidly and install a puppet regime. Of course this is not the end of the resistance, just the beginning.

Nevertheless, the invasion of Finland improves the Russian position. It also raises the pressure on Turkey. And the day of the confrontation of the two continental blocks is close.

Kagemusha

04-20-2007, 11:53

I will pm you some information and links about the situation in post winter war Finland.There is no point in continuing the conversation here in this thread,becouse this is interactive history and not replay of actual history.Altough i must express that it seems you have few misconceptions about the situation on that corner of the world at the time.:bow: Altough i must address one major point that destroys the scenario we are currently having. First after the Winter War Finland didnt end the martial law at all before the continuation war started,meaning large parts of Finnish army was ready to start fighting simultaneously the Soviet coup would start, second the Suojeluskunnat/White Guards that made 25% percent of the Finnish army in Winter war could be mobilized locally in hours. So coup with few Soviet Divisions would have failed miserably. We have to understand how total the preparations for war and enlistment of population in Finland to armed forces was. One thing to show that was that after the Moscow peace treaty Finnish spending in budget for military raised over 45%.

AggonyDuck

04-20-2007, 13:15

What is the right operation plan?

Of the three options presented, I favour the breakthrough along the coast. An all out assault at both the coast and the around the southern flank will mean that we will have two schwerpunkts, which is a no-no. Better that we concentrate our forces at one decisive point. Of those two I favour the coast more than I do the southern desert. The British will expect a flanking attempt, so I might expect that there are some rather nasty surprises on their southern flank. We have access both to heavy artillery and pioneers, which should be able to give a frontal assault a good chance of success. Additionally once we do break through we will be able to dash forward along the coastal road. The only question is should we start with a feint in the south before the primary assault?

So A2.

Btw it would be nice to have a further chapter to tune the finer details of the plan before the actual assault.

Where do you want to send the 4. PD?

B1

Better safe than sorry, if we did assault Crete, then it would tie up British naval assets to allow us to transport them to Tobruk. But as it is I do not think assaulting Crete isn't a good choice at the moment.

What about Crete?

C1

Better if we concentrate our airpower to support us in North Africa.

What about Jarabub, Siwa and Kufra?

D1

Supply will be essential in our battle and the following dash, so it's best that we secure them quick.

Btw, it would be nice to have a chat with Forza at some point. An attack against the British battleships would be nice, because if we can sink a couple of them in the shallow port of Alexandria we will be able to capture them and raise them later.

DemonArchangel

04-20-2007, 18:27

A2: Attack with 3, 15 and 21 PzD along the coast supported by artillery and aircraft, and the Italians will secure the flank along the south.

The Brandenburgers will hit the petrol dumps right before the attack. Our heavy artillery will hit the British lines in a short, sharp barrage in a box, in order to destroy the minefields and fortifications in the front and their artillery/supply lines in the rear. Our bombers will proceed to interdict the railroad line, while our fighters guard the tanks against the British bombers.

Our initial goal will be the railroad station at Mersah Matruh. When 4th Panzer arrives, it will have to dash through the breakthrough and capture El-Alamein as soon as possible, before the British can set up a line there.

Meanwhile, bombers from Greece will attack British airfields in Crete to suppress their planes based there.

Some Italian mobile elements can take the British bases in the south, and then raid British supply from there.

A2, B2, C3, D1

We can take Crete later, when the FSJ are finished with their training.

Rodion Romanovich

04-21-2007, 09:42

What is the right operation plan?
A1 I think Paulus is right. Although it's predictable, it's the best idea.

A head on assault to the north by the Italians is doomed to fail. We need armor to break through, and even then, losses will be unnecessarily high, and if we moved much of our armor from the south to reinforce the north we would expose our southern flank, opening it to a British flanking attack. Besides, the terrain to the south is quite open again, unlike what will be the case at the El Alamein chokepoint. The British will perhaps have had time to put AT mines and AT defenses at the southern flank, so we shouldn't rely on a fast assault there either. The best option is to manouver again. Go around their southern flank, and advance slowly enough to make sure the infantry can clear AT mines ahead of the tanks. If the AT minefields turn out to be weak or non-existent, drive around the British and charge the British southern flank from all directions at the same time. The manouvre will mean that either we manage to completely break their southern flank, or we force the British to attack our southern flank which will give them the disadvantage of attacking defensive positions, or they will be forced to attack our northern flank, which would put them against our defensive positions, and IMO one of the PDs should also be kept in reserve behind the line there, or the British must withdraw east, but if they withdraw east, we have several PDs in such positions that they will be able to encircle and capture up to 2 British divisions. Thus in all cases, we win with such a plan, while keeping our own losses down. Of course, our main air support should be at the southern flank to protect our tanks from British aircraft, and to destroy as many British fighters as possible. FLAK can't be as easily brought in the manouvers so it should be kept at the middle and northern part of the line. One more thing: have the bombers lay out a bomb carpet over the railroad just east of Mersa Matruh just before we begin our offensive manouver. The railroad should be damaged enough to make British extraction of heavier equipment difficult.

Where do you want to send the 4. PD?
B1 Tripoli, we won't need this PD for the attack on the Mersa Matruh line, but need them more when we come to El Alamein. Besides I'm quite sure the British will try to attack any troop convoys we insert in Tobruk. The fact that it's been calm at Tobruk lately is perhaps just a sign that they're planning a larger raid. However, I'd like to find out more about the situation at Tobruk, so I'd suggest sending one third of the PD, mostly infantry elements of it, via Tobruk, just to see what the British will and can do. This information will be valuable for later similar situations.

What about Crete?
C1

What about Jarabub, Siwa and Kufra?
Hm, could we get some more information about what number of British troops we can expect at these points? Perhaps the FJs should be involved in these attacks.

Franconicus

04-23-2007, 10:36

... What about Jarabub, Siwa and Kufra?
Hm, could we get some more information about what number of British troops we can expect at these points? ...

No. In fact we have no idea. There must be some. There are raiders coming out of the desert and we assume that they use these bases (there are no others). Kufra has an airfield! Might be used for the bomber shuttle.

There is still some uncertainty about question A:

there are two votes for the northern attack, two prefering the southern hook and one favouring both!

Rodion Romanovich

04-23-2007, 19:00

South please! :charge:

@Franc: ok, D1 then, it seems a reasonable assumption that the British have much fewer than 1 division there, given their trouble to the north.

Franconicus

04-24-2007, 10:50

Chapter 56– Where to strike?
Hoth’s HQ, July 13th

On July 13th Hoth calls his corps commanders to a war conference. All come, expect Rommel. During his last visit of the front his jeep hit a mine. Now he is disabled. Hoth knows that it will be hard to replace Rommel, especially since Freiherr von Funck, commander of the 21. Panzerdivision was killed in his car by a Hurricane during a low level attack.

“Gentlemen, before we talk about the details of the coming operation, just some more general comments. First of all, this operation has to be decisive. We cannot afford to run against British defense lines again and again. This time we have to defeat them completely. This time we have to drive them out of Africa and open the gates to the Middle East.

This means, that we do not only have to break through. This time we have to exploit the breakthrough. We have to keep enough tanks as a reserve for the second strike. We also have to spare fuel and ammo. This time we will not stop and wait for new supply. This time we will not stop before we reach Alexandria.

Of course our first objective is to take Mersa Matruh, capture this important railroad station and assault the dumps of the British. The next goal is to advance to El Alamein and to reach this point before the British can set up a new defense, even before the British reach this point. Then the race to Alexandria and the channel will be opened.

Our next step will be the opening to a decisive campaign. We have to consider everything, not just to win the battle, but also to win the campaign, even the war.

I have already made some decision and initiated some preparations.
First of all, Luftflotte 4 will support us from Greece. They will bomb the British air bases at Crete. This will give us the chance to land our supply straight at Tobruk, including the 4. Panzerdivision.

I also decided to send Triest south, to eliminate the British bases there and to secure our southern flank. This operation is named “sand dune”.

Additionally, I have decided to flank the operation with some special missions. As soon as we start to assault the British positions at Mersa Matruh, a team of Brandenburger will bypass the British through the desert and then turn north. The goals are to interrupt the railroad and to destroy as many supply convoys as possible. I am sure that this platoon will cause a lot of confusion among the British. At the same time the Luftwaffe will bomb the railway facilities at Mersa Matruh and Fuka.

As soon as we broke through the lines of Mersa Matruh the Luftflotte 4 will raid against the Sues Channel. It will attack every transport ship and block the channel with mines.

Now to the main issue, the British defense at Mersa Matruh. During the last days, we received a lot of information about the enemy and his position.”
Hoth points at the map.

“ Mersa Matruh itself is a small village at the sea. South of it is a plain of about 20 miles. Then there is the plateau with the desert. The edge between the plateau and the plain is almost parallel to the coast line. There are only few ways to come from the plain to the plateau.
The British have three infantry divisions at the front; the Indian 4. at the coast, the Australian 6. and the Indian 10.. The 10. lost one brigade at Maddalena. The 7. Armored lies near Fuka. There are reports about troops near El Alamein, but we do not know if there is another position or if there are only rear units or combat units on the way to the front.

The English have blocked the costal road east of Mersa Matruh with thousands of mines. Around the village there are several strongholds. The British call them boxes. They are protected by barricades, mines and ATGs. The strongest box is east of Mersa, at Maarten Baggush. It is called Baggush Box. It blocks the costal road and secures the British dumps.

On the plateau, there are other boxes, similar to the ones at the coast. The extension of the English lines is about 70 miles. Between the last box and the Gattara Depression there is a gap of about 20 miles. We could use it to bypass the Indians.

Gentlemen, now I ask you: Do you have any proposals how we can break through the defense of Mersa? Always keep in mind that this is only the opening move of a much bigger operation!”

AggonyDuck

04-24-2007, 13:00

I've provided you guys with some pictures from google maps of the terrain close to Mersah Matruh. It shows both the coast, the plain and the plateau quite clearly and also shows the ridge that seems to separate the plain from the plateau. This means that there will be little movement from the plain to the plateau and vice versa, and the little movement that is possible will occur through bottlenecks. From what I've seen the ridgeline actually first ends south of Fuka, which would mean that any enflanking efforts would have to either go through small gaps in the ridge or flank the whole ridge and drive north first later on. You might want to check it out for yourself on google maps/earth.

https://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7208/mersahmatruhoq0.jpg

AggonyDuck

04-24-2007, 13:54

Personally I'd still favour an offensive either at the coast or the plain. We have both pioneers and heavy artillery, which should go along way in helping us both secure a path through the minefield and to actually assault the British lines. Once a breakthrough has been achieved it is then simply a matter of dashing along the plain or the coastal road with the armour and leaving the slower Italian infantry to contain the isolated British forces. Additionally it will result in a far easier supply situation for our forces than what a flanking move would entail.

The whole southern flanking move just feels wrong for me. The greatest strength of armour lies in their mobility, yet we're sending them to a desert plateau that is separated from the plain by an escarpment with fairly limited ways to descend down to the plain. We will either have to descend through small passes that will just bottleneck our forces or try to march around it and run straight in to the arms of the 7th Armoured Division between the end of the escarpment and Quattara depression. It is no accident that the 7th Armoured is deployed at Fuka. Additionally there is still the matter of supplying the Panzers that go around the escarpment; all of their supply will have to go around the same way, severely hampering any attempts of resupplying them.

Even if we actually managed to come in between the British defence line and the 7th Armoured, then what? We would be in the middle of natural cauldron far worse than the one we endured in Gazala, with very few avenues of withdrawal and supply. Not exactly the way that I would want to use our mobility to.

King Kurt

04-24-2007, 14:34

The time has come to face the enemy face on - the boxes mean that being cut off will not lead the English to withdraw. We should assault the Baggush Box with all the bells and whistles - pioneers, Brandenbergs, Heavy artillery etc. Break through there, take the supplies and open up the coast road. Monty always described El Alamein as a WW1 style battle - infantry and artillery - once he had broken through, the tanks just streamed through and it was difficult to establish a new defence line. Each southern hook ends up with our armour cut off and running out of petrol. So let's go all out with a carefully planned assault on the box with a view breaking the front apart. By all means, slip some armour through the seams between the boxes to get them in the rear - and to pull the 7th armoured div into the battle.
Finally, our best armour general has driven over a mine - rather inconsiderate, if I may say so!! :2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel

04-24-2007, 17:25

Ok, hit the junction between the Indian Divisions as hard as we can with everything that we have, then pour through, using the Italians to roll up the flanks. When we come against a box, use artillery and pioneers to clear the minefields.

And add that to whatever King Kurt said.

Rodion Romanovich

04-24-2007, 18:34

@Aggony: given this information about the terrain, which is pretty much the opposite of what I thought, I must agree: a coastal breakthrough is the way to go. The British deployment also means a much smaller need for covering our own southern flank, so we will be able to assemble the strength needed at the coast. In short I agree with the above mentioned plan.

Franconicus

04-25-2007, 10:30

Parenthesis

My impression is that all of you prefer advancing along the coast. Could you give me more details, esp. the units you would like to use and their deployment, tactical finesses, esp. how you want to deal with the boxes. Do you want to bypass them with your tanks while the infantry besieges them or do you want to take on after the other and then push further?

Of course there are other news, decisions:

1) Hoth needs to replace Rommel and von Funck. Any proposals, wishes?

2) New reinforcements arrive just in time for the new invasion. Two propaganda companies sent directly by Goebbels arrive at Hoth’s HQ. In anticipation of a new outstanding success they have the order to film the victory of the Battle at Mersa and the seizure of Alexandria and the crossing of the Sues Channel. They have a document from Hitler telling every military leader to support them everything they need. They do not have any transport means that are suitable for the desert. They ask Hoth for some transport planes. However, transport planes are rare and each single plane will be need for the invasion.

a. Give them the planes. You must make a good impression!
b. Give them some cross country vehicles and let them accompany the advanced platoons.
c. Put them to the Italian infantry. There they won’t hamper the operations.

3) Radio reconnaissance tells you that the English are probably preparing several operations. Targets and involved units are unknown; however, they could start during the next days.

@Aggony Duck: :furious3: satellite pictures are no common means for WW2 warfare.
Just kidding – excellent picture. Thanks!! :2thumbsup:

AggonyDuck

04-25-2007, 13:50

My impression is that all of you prefer advancing along the coast. Could you give me more details, esp. the units you would like to use and their deployment, tactical finesses, esp. how you want to deal with the boxes. Do you want to bypass them with your tanks while the infantry besieges them or do you want to take on after the other and then push further?

Well basically we need to secure a corridor wide enough for our armoured divisions and their supply units, so that we can keep on pushing. So that propably means that we will have to seize atleast one of those boxes.

As to the assault, after clearing a path across the minefield, I'd start by an frontal assault by the Bologna, Brescia and Trento divisions supported by the pioneers and the heavy artillery. A good schwerpunkt might be the junction of the 4th Indian and the 6th Australian division. After a gap has emerged between the British lines, the Panzer Divisions smash through it and race towards Fuka. The Ariete follows them and keeps their rear clean. Meanwhile the infantry tries to reduce one of the boxes to secure better supply lines and to contain the British inside the boxes.

Basically we need to separate the majority of the British forces from their supply depot and then trap the 10th Indian and elements of the 6th Australian by reaching the edge of the Quattara depression. Without supplies they will have to capitulate eventually.

The Brandenburgers again could head around the Southern flank towards Fuka to confuse and cause mayhem in the British rear areas.

1) Hoth needs to replace Rommel and von Funck. Any proposals, wishes?

Well seeing that the replacement needs to come from the commanders of our current forces, it would be nice to know who is available. The first replacement for Rommel who comes to mind is Model. Is Bayerlein around? He might be a decent replacement too.

As to Funck it might be good to replace him for now with another officer from 21. Panzer Division. Who was his Chief of Staff?

Stig

04-25-2007, 14:20

Currently we have the following divisions:
3. Panzer
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1275
4. Panzer
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1276
15. Panzer
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1288
21. Panzer
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1294

That gives us:
Model
von Langermann und Erlencamp (not arrived yet)
Neumann-Silkow
Böttcher (Funck was originally replaced by Streich:
Commanders (5. Light)
General der Panzertruppen Hans Freiherr von Funck (1 Jan 1941 - 7 Feb 1941)
Generalleutnant Johannes Streich (7 Feb 1941 - 16 May 1941)
Generalleutnant Karl Böttcher (16 May 1941 - 1 Aug 1941)

I kinda like this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Bittrich), but he's a SS general so no way he would be allowed to command a normal Wehrmacht division.
Tho I think Hitler might like the idea of a SS general in Africa, in which case this guy is our man.

DemonArchangel

04-25-2007, 14:41

Keep the Propaganda Companies at the front filming. If they get killed, ain't my fault.

I don't think we can really bypass the boxes that easily, due to lack of space to maneuver Clear the minefields in front of the boxes and the areas to their rear with artillery, then attack with infantry supported by tanks and pioneers.

If we can bypass the boxes and cut off their rear, then do it. Otherwise, follow what I suggested above. Do whatever it takes to move quickly and seize the British rear areas so that they're cut off from supply.

Franconicus

04-25-2007, 15:11

1) Hoth needs to replace Rommel and von Funck. Any proposals, wishes?

Well seeing that the replacement needs to come from the commanders of our current forces, it would be nice to know who is available.

Africa is the most important front right now and you are about to start the decisive invasion. Call Keitel, he will propably send you any General you like to have (please not a SS man!)

Stig

04-25-2007, 15:16

Call Keitel, he will propably send you any General you like to have
Von Rundstedt and Guderain will do ~D

Franconicus

04-25-2007, 15:20

Von Rundstedt and Guderain will do ~D
In France, Guderian led a Panzergruppe, v. Rundstedt an army group. Do you really want them to lead a corps and a division?

Stig

04-25-2007, 16:55

In France, Guderian led a Panzergruppe, v. Rundstedt an army group. Do you really want them to lead a corps and a division?
You said we could get any general ~D

King Kurt

04-25-2007, 16:57

What about Thoma?..... or if we are allowed any general - Montgomery!!!:laugh4:

Rodion Romanovich

04-25-2007, 16:58

1 - edit: basically what was said above: try to cut off boxes when possible, avoid using the tanks in assaulting the boxes (but rather use artillery and infantry), since the boxes are isolated we should be able to amass extreme local superiority in artillery and infantry for each box and assault them one by one. Alternatively, siege those whose supply we seem to be able to cut off easily. Use dive bombers and bomb carpets over the boxes at the start of each assault.

2A, I guess we can spare a couple of planes, after all if we deploy our FJs for missions soon, we should get a huge supply of transport planes flown in for them anyway. One or two less planes won't do much damage to our supply of transport planes.

3. Increase garrisons on all our airfields. Put up minefields and barbed wire around all of them. Make sure they all have enough garrison to hold back any attacking enemy raiding force consisting of: something like 2-5 light tanks/halftracks/jeeps and 400 infantry.

Stig

04-25-2007, 17:11

What about Thoma?..... or if we are allowed any general - Montgomery!!!:laugh4:
Patton might do well in a push with tanks to Alexandria

AggonyDuck

04-25-2007, 17:27

Africa is the most important front right now and you are about to start the decisive invasion. Call Keitel, he will propably send you any General you like to have (please not a SS man!)

Well one needs to keep in mind that any general selected has to first accept and be assigned to the position, then be transported to Africa and then adapt to his new command. All this will take time, which is something that we don't have in abundance. I believe we will be far better off by selecting a temporary replacement among their staff, most likely their Chief of Staff, who should both know the unit and the situation well.

But if we have to ask for a General from Germany, then we can't go wrong with either Geyr von Schweppenburg or Erich von Manstein. I'm pretty sure Manstein should be keen on commanding an armoured corps and his operational creativity should come to good use. Schweppenburg again is again an experienced commander of armoured formations.

Again if we want a replacement for Funck, then I'd propably go for Erhard Raus.

JimBob

04-26-2007, 04:02

What about Hasso Von Manteuffel for the division? A skilled commander and a tenacious defender, which could prove useful latter on.

King Kurt

04-26-2007, 09:17

Patton might do well in a push with tanks to Alexandria
Patton would be no use - we do not have overwhelming superiority on land, sea, air and supply - the only way the man could operate!!!! To take the boxes - Monty's your man.

Franconicus

04-26-2007, 11:04

:dizzy2:
Wait!
Monty is a British corps commander, known for lack of discipline. Last activity was running away from our troops in France.
Patton, never heard of!
Manteuffel, he is a leader of a regiment. We have more experienced commanders, don't we?
Manstein could command a corps.
Thoma may b a good choice for the division. He knows Africa at least!

AggonyDuck

04-26-2007, 11:05

Kagemusha

04-26-2007, 13:07

AggonyDuck

04-26-2007, 15:54

How about Walter Model,for Corps commander? I would propose also Felix Steiner for a division commander.:yes:If SS Generals are out of the question, then i will support Erhard Raus myself also for the division commander.

Model might actually be the best choice for the Corps commander. He is already in North Africa, knows the troops and our situation and is a all together very capable commander. That would just mean that we would have to find two divisional commanders instead. If Model takes over the corps, maybe we might think about getting Hermann Balck to take over the 3. Panzer Division then.

Kagemusha

04-26-2007, 16:03

Model might actually be the best choice for the Corps commander. He is already in North Africa, knows the troops and our situation and is a all together very capable commander. That would just mean that we would have to find two divisional commanders instead. If Model takes over the corps, maybe we might think about getting Hermann Balck to take over the 3. Panzer Division then.

I agree.I think Model as Corps commander,with Raus and Balck as Division commanders would be a good trio for our needs.

Rodion Romanovich

04-26-2007, 17:27

Could we talk about the pros/cons of a division strong feint in the south?

From what I've understood, there is an undefended gap 20 miles wide in the south? I don't think that the Indian division would be able to cover it either. That means that unless there are some hidden British units somewhere, the only unit available to stop such a feint would be the 7th Armoured. Luring the 7th Armoured southwest before our main attack might hold some nice advantages, because when we manage to breakthrough at the coast, we will be able to cut off the 7th Armoured from Fuka and catch it between our two pincers. If the 7th Armoured doesn't respond to our feint, then the division tasked with the feint could try to actually flank the British position and smash the 7th Armoured in the flank when it tries to stop our main breakthrough.
These are pretty much the advantages I see in it.

The disadvantages again are the fact that we will weaken our main armour thrust with a division and that it will considerably lengthen our frontage. Additionally who knows what the British have prepared for us in the gap, but that's why we can use and should use reconnaissance. :yes:
Wait... wasn't the 20 miles wide gap just south of the coastal village of Mersa Matruh? Which means it's to be considered at the northern edge of the frontline as I see it... The next gap would be south of the plateaus, which is quite far south, possibly so far south that we will have trouble with supply - possibly worse than for our previous flanking moves - there, and moreover we will have trouble launching converging attacks from there and the plain because the plateau in between is a difficult "natural fortification". In short - the terrain looks pretty much the opposite of what I assumed in post, when I suggested a plan that would probably have failed horribly with the ground we now seem to have #841 :embarassed:

In short my plan suggestion would be to advance past Mersa Matruh through the plain, clearing mines and taking the village. Then it will probably be necessary to find a way up to the plateau to clear the boxes, which could be dangerous threats to our rear when we push on further. If we press on quite far through the plain in the first part of our offensive, we will have access to more roads up to the plateau. The danger is if the British have artillery that can reach from the plateau down onto the plain. In that case, we will need to be quick in turning conquering some roads up onto the plateau quite early on in the offensive. That way, the British may be able to force us to use our tanks in breaking the boxes quickly, which will mean huge losses of tanks, something I'd rather like to avoid. If the British artillery does indeed have such reach, then their deployment is quite clever, unfortunately.

SwordsMaster

04-26-2007, 17:57

How about we hit the gap with our armour, followed by italian armour. Our armour will race forward towards Alamein, while the italians will turn and flank the british positions while the infantry attack from the front. After this, the italians are to follow the german tanks securing their supply, and the infantry, artillery and pioneers are to surround, isolate and supress each box while our armour is already breaking through Alamein.

Also I agree on Model, Raus and Monteuffel

AggonyDuck

04-26-2007, 18:09

Some additional matters that we need to contemplate on; how crucial is the capture of Mersah Matruh for our advance? Seeing as it is propably the best defended position in the whole British line it will propably be rather costly to assault and capture. Still it is a good question whether we can dash forward without capturing it.

I think our best option might be to initially to achieve a wide breakthrough at the plain and then, while our Panzers dash east, our Italian infantry supported by perhaps Ariete start to assault the British boxes north of the breakthrough one by one, with the maximal firepower secured for each assault. If we gather together the divisional heavy artillery with our additional heavy artillery, we might be able to achieve a very heavy bombardment, that might go a long way in allowing a speedy capture of the boxes. Eventually the Italians work their way to Mersah Matruh and secure it. After that we should have a relatively safe supply route secured for our dashing panzers. The next step is securing the envelopment of the British forces south of the breakthrough and sending the Ariete east.

Anyway I recommend that we concentrate more upon the tactics themselves, than replacement commanders. There is enough competent generals in the German Army, so whoever takes command is really not an issue of utmost importance. What is more important though is proper planning of our following operation.

Rodion Romanovich

04-26-2007, 18:39

Agreed!

Regarding the range of the British artillery: their heavier guns should be able to cover the entire plain between Mersa Matruh and the plateau from their positions on the plateau and in Mersa Matruh. Only a very small number of the heaviest batteries should have enough range though. Most likely the British can't have brought much or any heavier artillery at all up on the plateau, so if we capture Mersa Matruh, we probably secure almost the entire plain from being threatened by artillery. However, if we secure the entire plains and penetrate deeply enough past Mersa Matruh, we can secure completely safe ground and this remaining artillery won't be much of a problem even if we don't take the village. The assault on the village could be costly.

I think we would be able to cut off Mersa Matruh easily by an armored advance through the plain deep beyond Mersa Matruh. However, if the minefield on the plain is thick and deep, our tanks will be slowed down and exposed to heavy artillery fire. Furthermore, it could be difficult to get any stronger air support east of Mersa Matruh without capturing it. That could mean great losses in tanks.

My suggestion is that we advance towards Mersa Matruh and shell it with artillery and bombers, while we send our infantry just south of it to clear the minefield. The infantry should have air support and many PDs in reserve right behind them, ready to assist them if they get counter-attacked by any stronger British forces. Once a deep enough path through the minefield has been opened, 2 PDs or possibly even more should penetrate past it towards ground that is safe from artillery, and then proceed with the cutting off manouver and possibly drawing the 7th Armored into battle. Rather than following up this with an assault on Mersa Matruh, we should turn south to conquer the plateau positions, since with the deep penetration we should have been able to access many more routes up to the plateau. Once we've started this manouver and seen what the British response is, we should make a decision on how to proceed. Anything could happen, from the British pulling back to El Alamein safely, to we being able to break through at El Alamein while much of the British force still rots on the plateau and in Mersa Matruh... We should be however expect that the Mersa Matruh garrison will be able to successfully withdraw by sea even if encircled. Our best chance of capturing enemies lies in the plateaus, so that's where we should advance first.

SwordsMaster

04-26-2007, 19:06

Shouldn't we get the ertillery to hit the guns on the plateau if anything? I mean it would be easier for bombers than for infantry...

Rodion Romanovich

04-26-2007, 20:44

SwordsMaster

04-27-2007, 11:38

yes, my mistake. The first phase included artillery bombardment of Mersah Matruh to keep their artillery tied down in duels, and in the second phase - the attack on the plateau - we should move most of that artillery to aid in the taking of the plateau.

Damn, sorry, I meant the airforce. This is what writing all day does to you... Stukas and bombers should hit the brits on the plateau for at least long enough to allow our tanks to break through

Rodion Romanovich

04-27-2007, 15:48

yes, that's a good idea. On the plateau, we should be on at least equal terms with the British airforce. One more thing: my previous calculation on the British artillery was incorrect. I believe there'll be a several kilometers wide corridor that will be free even of longer-range artillery in the middle of the plains. That surely makes things easier :2thumbsup:

Franconicus

04-30-2007, 16:02

Chapter 57 – Eve of destruction
Hoth's HQ, July 14th

On July 14th Ramcke meets Hoth for a final analysis:
“Bernhard, I would like to discuss my operation plan with you. I do not want to analyze it in the bigger round, as this would only lead to confusion, again. I made up my mind. We will attack only at the northern sector, the stripe between the sea and the plateau.”
Ramcke: “At a stripe of only 20 miles?”
Hoth: “Yes. I know that it is anything but ideal. We won’t be able to exploit the superior mobility of our tanks. This is going to be a static campaign, but I rely on our superior number. Ariete and Brescia will start the operation. They will attack the British forces, mainly the Indian 4. Division. Brescia has to open a breach; Ariete will use it to advance along the seam of the plain and the plateau. So we can divide the British forces. Trento and 41. Army Corps will be behind them, supporting them if necessary.”
“Who will command the 41. Corps?”
“Well, I already asked the High Command for substitutes. Until then we need a temporary solution. First I thought Model could do it. However, this would mean that the 3. PD would get a new commander, too and I do not want to change more than I have to. Not at the dawn of a new invasion. Therefore I decided to ask Schmidt to command Rommel’s Corps. You know that he is already here, although his corps has only one division, the 3.. This division can be lead by Model. 21. PD will be led by Ritter von Thoma. He is familiar with the requirements of the desert and he is available.”
“Who will be the final successor of Rommel?”
Hoth: “I hope it will be Rommel. Hopefully he will be back soon.”
Ramcke: “What is your plan of action?”
Hoth: “Well, the frontal assault does not give much way for tactical surprises. We have to rely on our numerical superiority. Unfortunately, we have to save fuel and ammo. We have some surprises for the Brits, nevertheless. Trieste will advance south to eliminate the threat from the British bases there. 3. PD will start a flanking march in the south, but it will return before it bypasses the British lines. Additionally I send two special task forces to interrupt the British railroad at Fuka and at El Alamein and to rumble behind the lines. I hope these missions will draw the attention of the British to the south.
As soon as the main operation will take place, the Luftwaffe will first attack the British airfields. Then it will bomb Fuka and the gates from the plateau. I want it to block all entries to the battlefield.”
Ramcke: “What about the announced operations of the British?”
Hoth: “We are alert. I do not think that they intend to attack us hear. Maybe there will be small scale operations against our supply or airfields. I gave order to increase the guards. Additionally, we protect Tobruk with more soldiers and more air defence. There will be more patrol in the desert. Last week there were several contacts with British submarines. I gave order to increase the air patrols over the sea too. Unfortunately, this will decrease the support for the assault, but we have to guard our supply.”
Just as Hoth finishes this sentence, the doors opens and a young officer enters the room:
“A telegram, Sir!”
“Thank you!”
Hoth skims over the text. His face clouds. Then he looks to Ramcke again:

“The British squadron left Alexandria two days ago. Force H left Gibraltar this night. Currently there is a convoy with units of the 4. PD on the way from Naples to Gibraltar. Additionally there are two other convoys. One is ready to leave Naples for Tripoli, the other one is returning from Tripoli to Naples.”
Is Hoth’s plan alright to you?
What to do with the convoys?
A) The convoy of the 4. PD has passed 1/3 of the distance.
A1) Make him return to Naples
A2) Go on to Tobruk!
B) The one at Naples:
B1 Make him wait!
B2 Make him sail!
C) The one from Lybia has also passed one third of the way.
C1) Make him wait!
C2) Make him sail!

King Kurt

04-30-2007, 16:31

A2,B2,C2 - let's keep all the convoys going - that gives a target for the English fleet - but they must come into our area to attack the convoys, so we can attack them with our airforce. We rule the central Med, so let's underline that. if we give the English fleet a bloody nose, they will be less likely to interfere with our offensive.

Rodion Romanovich

04-30-2007, 16:59

I agree, that sounds like the best idea.

DemonArchangel

04-30-2007, 17:30

Agree with Kurt. Let's do this.

Kagemusha

04-30-2007, 18:46

Yep.Kurt is right as usually.:bow:

Stig

04-30-2007, 19:22

Need I say more?

King Kurt

05-01-2007, 09:25

I'm worried - everybody is agreeing with me!! - for once Franc, it looks like a swift, easy decision!!

DemonArchangel

05-01-2007, 22:06

NO! WAIT! DISSENSION!

Hold back the convoy carrying 4 PzD. The other two convoys aren't really carrying anything, so they can be used as bait. 4 PzD is too valuable to risk.

Franconicus

05-03-2007, 16:35

Chapter 58 – Blood, Sweat and Tears
All around the Mediterranean Sea, July 15th – July 20th

On July 15th, the operation “Löwe” begins. Trieste starts marching southwards; 3.PD starts a feint flanking manoeuvre.
When night falls, pioneers of the Italian divisions start clearing the minefields. About 0:30 they have a first contact with a British patrol. British artillery starts scattering shells and raiding patrols make the work of the Italians harder. When the sun appears, the pioneers are far behind schedule.
Nevertheless, Hoth gives the sign to continue the operation. 600 guns, from heavy artillery to light mortars, start shelling the British boxes. The bombardment lasts about half an hour. The Italian pioneers renew their efforts to clear a path through the mines. However, the British boxes are still alive and firing. Now, at the light of day, the fire from mortars and machine guns is so deadly, that the Italians have to give up.
Ramcke welcomes the break of the new day at the air field of El Adem. From here he wants to drive to the Italian divisions. Static warfare is something he is familiar with and maybe he will be able to advice the Italians.
The airfield of El Adem is jam-packed with all kind of fighters and ground attack planes. At the first light of day German and Italian pilots get ready to take off. Goals are British airfields.
The air is filled with the sound of running engines. Ramcke does not hear the shadows coming. All over sudden they are there, at low altitude, spewing fire from cannons and dropping bombs on the waiting planes. As fast as they appeared, they are gone again. Some German fighters take off trying to pick off some of the raiders. Then the German and Italian squadrons raise and bomb British airfields. In spite of this negative beginning, the Germans and their ally dominate the skies during the whole day.
The Italians renew their efforts and start several attempts to sweep the mine fields. They all fail and the casualties of the Italians are rising. Ramcke is shocked about these senseless sacrifices. He convinces the Italian commanders to wait until the end of the day. In the evening, Stukas bomb the British positions, preparing the way to the nightly sweeping mission.
In the evening, Hoth visits the HQ of the Italians. He is not satisfied with the progress. He demands to break through the mines during night. Hoth brings news from the other fronts. Trieste is doing well. Up to now, it has not met any British forces and goes on marching south.
Ramcke asks Hoth about the fate of the convoys. Hoth tells him, that they have extra air escorts. Until now they haven’t been attacked. Force H is still undetected. Cunningham’s squad popped up at the coast of Syria. They shelled positions of the French garrison two days ago. At the same time British units crossed the northern border and invaded Syria. According to the information, the British deploy at least one division, with remarkable air support. There has been some fighting on the ground, but it is still uncertain, if the French will fight the British or join them.
At Tmimi the water pipeline was blown up and the Via Balbo was blocked by mines. This afternoon a fuel-tanker run on a mine at the entrance of Tobruk.
During night the Italian pioneers manage to clear two lanes through the mines. At the first light of day July 17th the Italian assault platoons cross the mine fields and start to assault the British boxes. They get direct support of the artillery and Stukas. British artillery is very strong and does not have to spare shells. The boxes fire with mortars and machine guns and the fire of the boxes overlaps. Corpses of dead Italian infantrymen soon cover the ground. The air is filled with the sound of howling grenades, detonations, screams and the chugging of machine guns. The smell of carbide is in the air. Ramcke feels as if he was in an old, familiar nightmare. Everything reminds him of the battles at Flanders. However, here the sun burns hotter than it has ever been at Belgium, making life even more unbearable. However, the Italians do not give up. In the afternoon they manage to take the northern fort. Artillery fogs the box, the Italians break through, supported by some tanks, and break into the fortifications. The last survivors of the garrison surrender, the first box is in the hands of the Axis.
In the southern sector things are going even worse. Here, tanks of Ariete are trying to support the assault. However, they stick in the minefield and the British start a slaughterous bombardment. Soon many Italian tanks are destroyed and the assault is pinned.
When night falls, the German High Command is optimistic, that the defence will break the other day. At least one box is eliminated. Tomorrow, this gap will be increase.
Trieste is still marching southwards. They will reach Jarabub tomorrow. They have still not hit any defence of the British, but during night there have been raids against the rear units. The division has also casualties due to mines. Additionally, the convoys have been attacked by ground attack planes. The commander of Trieste asks for air support.
Early next morning, it is July 18th, Brescia starts another attempt to break through the lines of the Indian 4th. This morning, the British have a new ally, a mighty one. A sand storm stops all movements for the whole morning. When the wind finally calms down, the Italian units gather and make another try. Now they find themselves confronted with another problem. The marks, that route the mine free paths, are gone. The whole landscape has changed. Pioneers have to clear the way, again. When they finally get a new connection to the already occupied fort, the Italian garrison almost died from thirst.
All the time the British artillery fires as if they did not care about ammo. Several hundreds of cannons are deployed at a front of 20 miles. The two Italian spearheads are under permanent fire. The combat strength of Brescia is melting away.
In the evening Hoth decides to deploy Trento, the last remaining infantry division. He also tells the German and Italian tank divisions to support the assault.
During night the pioneers of Trento finally open a second path through the mine field. In the morning of July 19th tanks of Ariete break through the mine filed and attack the British box next to the plateau. Simultaneously the air force bombs positions of the British artillery. In an incredible hard fight the Italians seize this box, too. That is good news for Hoth. He asks Ariete to push further, while Trento has to clear the remaining boxes. This morning, Hoth receives also good news from one of his Brandenburger teams. They successfully interrupted the railroad at Fuka and ambushed a supply convoy. Now they are on the way back. From the second team with destination El Alamein still no news.
In the afternoon Ariete reaches the descent of the street Siwa – Mersa. The gate is protected by ATGs, AAA and mines. Before night falls, the Italian tanks overrun the Indian defenders. Now one descent is under control.
In the evening Ramcke drives to the northern fort, that was seized on July 17th. This night, the Italians are going to attack the fort that lies next to it. Ramcke wants to watch this operation.
About midnight, the Italian companies leave the box. Before they reach their targets, they are taken by surprise by an Indian counterattack. The Italian general is killed; his troops give up order and flee back to the northern fort. The Indians follow, trying to assault the box. Ramcke realizes that loosing this box would be a dramatic step backwards .He manages to gather the anchorless Italians and arranges the defence of the box. With concentrated forces they repel the Indians. Ramcke makes the Italians dogging the retreating enemies. They breathe down the Indian’s necks and reach the southern fort at the same time as the defenders. After a short close combat the fort is in the hands of the Italians.
During the same night the Indians start to retreat, although they still hold two boxes in the first line.
While the Italian divisions bring supply and reinforcements to their spearheads, Hoth and Ramcke meet to make a résumé.
Hoth: “There are two breaches in the Indian lines and Ariete controls the road to Siwa. Tomorrow the Italians have to assault Mersa Matruh while Ariete advances to Fuka.”
Ramcke: “The Italian divisions are at the end of their tether. Brescia has lost about 40 percent of its infantry, Trento about 30. Ariete has lost about 25% of its combat strength. The Italians have more than 9,000 killed, wounded or ill. The rest is exhausted. I think we should wait. A break for a day would help a lot. This would also give us the chance to pull the artillery closer and to shell Mersa.”
Hoth: “Maybe it is time to deploy our German divisions. They could advance along the seam of the plateau and attack the 7. Armored. Then the road to El Alamein is open.”
Ramcke: “Right! We could also decide to start a flanking operation. We could send the 21. south to join the 3. and to attack the Australians. By the way, how is Trieste doing?”
Hoth: “They reached Jarabub today. The English garrison had already left the village two days before. Now they will split. The main detachment will assault Siwa, while the smaller one will cross the Great Sand Sea to reach Kuffra.”
Ramcke: “Right! What about the other fronts?”
Hoth: “Well, our bombers keep on attacking the British airfields at Crete. We assume that they are more or less out of the game. Regarding Syria we still do not know what is going on there. My personal opinion is that the French forces will join the British. Anyway, I doubt that they have a relevant combat strength at all. Oh. I almost forgot. The harbour of Naples was bombed yesterday by carrier based planes. Three transport ships were sunk.”
Ramcke: “Force H?”
Hoth: “Yes, Force H. Of course, the Italian planes were not able to find the carrier group. Fortunately the ships were unloaded.”

https://img360.imageshack.us/img360/761/prsentation1sj4.jpg

AggonyDuck

05-03-2007, 19:30

Are there any decisions for us to make?

Rodion Romanovich

05-03-2007, 19:58

Hm, it seems like the path south is quite open. The path east is half open, the path along the coast still closed, but in slight disorder.

Hoth's first suggestion to assault Matruh and have Ariete advance to Fuka would put a weakened Ariete against the British 7th Armored and additional British infantry - probably not a good idea.

Ramcke's first suggestions seems good, since we seem to have an advantage in artillery, which could grow even stronger in the coming days now that the British railroad is cut off, but the damage to the railroad could also be minor and repaired within a week, if we're unlucky, in which case we will be in trouble if we follow this strategy without any additional manouvers.

Then we have Hoth's second suggestion - to deploy the PDs. This seems a quite good suggestion, but the line to the east of Matruh is still not entirely open, and the tank losses could be heavy. We will most likely also get bogged down in assaults on more boxes before we break through. Most likely, the British have more reserves than the 7th Armored to the east - after all they sent an entire division to Syria, despite how dangerous their situation in North Africa now is. Most likely, this move will not be as smooth as it sounds, I think. We probably need to see how the initial advances turn out before we can decide whether to go on towards El Alamein.

The fourth suggestion - a flanking operation, also has problems. First of all, the ground is difficult for the advance of the 3. PD. However, it seems like we've managed to open several crucial paths south up on the plateau from the plain, giving the 21. PD an excellent chance of attacking in a drive south. With proper air support, it should be very effective against the British divisions there, and the attack would probably work quite well. There, the second problem comes into the picture: there's a risk that the PDs on the plateau will get trapped up there by a British counter-offensive into the ground we've captured on the plain. This should be unlikely because we have 15. PD and 3 Italian divisions against 1 British infantry and 1 British armored there, on good defensive ground for us and additonally we have another PD on the way, but I still feel we need to push a little further east on the plain before going south, so that we have some more ground to fall back on before we begin the drive south. Primarily, we need to clear up the 2 isolated Indian boxes to the west which still threaten our entire region of captured ground on the plains. This initial attack could be done by elements of the 15. PD, Brescia, Ariete and 21. PD, giving us a great advantage in numbers. Also the tanks could carefully take part in this attack, since we've captured ground on all sides of these boxes and can use attack the box from several directions. With the information we have from how the previous box assaults went, the assaults on these two boxes should be easy and the losses in tanks small, especially if the infantry take the lead. After these two boxes fall, we need to decide whether to go south, push a little further east then go south, or to push all the way to El Alamein.

Stig

05-03-2007, 20:15

I'd simply say:
throw everything we have into the perimeter Ariete has made and let 3. PD attack the 10th Indian.
We can break them here and now.

Rodion Romanovich

05-03-2007, 21:04

One thing I accidentally removed in my edit above: does anyone else think the fact the British have 1 division in Syria despite their critical situation in North Africa implies they may have many more reserves than just the 7th Armored?

Stig

05-03-2007, 21:13

Syria is too far away to be a reserve, and that division is there on a mission so: no

DemonArchangel

05-04-2007, 06:31

Yes, I find it a bit odd too. It could be that the British know that the Suez is about to fall and is preparing its defenses in the Middle East....No that seems a bit silly given their critical situation. You might be right Legio, but for now, we have to keep advancing. Send in the Panzers through the gaps. We have to take Alamein as soon as possible. We can rest and resupply there, because it's a good, defensible chokepoint.

Franc: What's reconnaissance tell us about divisions beyond Alamein? I'm afraid the British might have shipped several extra divisions to Egypt.

Franconicus

05-04-2007, 09:12

Are there any decisions for us to make?
Yes!

Franc: What's reconnaissance tell us about divisions beyond Alamein? I'm afraid the British might have shipped several extra divisions to Egypt.
Difficult to answer. Intellegence assumes that there are another two divisions at Egypt. One tank division is on the way from GB to Egypt. Several divisions from East Africa may be released due to the collapse of the Italians there.

SwordsMaster

05-04-2007, 12:04

Hmm... What about bringing in the paratroopers?

Limited raids could go a long way, since we have air superiority. I'm thinking manly to use them to take out the boxes and land them behind enemy lines, say in Fuka.

They'd be quite useless in open desert terrain, but to take out Fuka, land heavy (AT) equipment, and hit the 7th Armoured in the flank while our PDs hit its front might get us to Alamein quicker...

And we would only need 1 paratrooper division.

Otherwise, I think Hoth's suggestion of throwing the german divs in is the best one.

Franconicus

05-04-2007, 14:50

There are five options so far:

1) Support Ariete with everything we have!

2) Take away the last two boxes to secure supply and then make the 21. march south onto the plateau to hit the flank of the Australians.

3) Assault Mersa

4) Let the 3. PD Break through the Indians on the plain.

5) Call for the paras. (might take four weeks until they can deploy!)

King Kurt

05-04-2007, 16:00

2 and 3 - let's carry on grinding - baggish box is the source of supply. A few more days wearing down the enemy then break out with everything - our pansers have not had to be seriously committed, so they will be fresh and well supplied.

Kagemusha

05-04-2007, 16:16

How about 2,3,4 and 5. This is the defining moment of the battle.The British are starting to brake and we have run them over,we cant let them get away this time by withdrawing,so use our numbers and put pressure everywhere and also call for the Fallschirmjäger so we can deploy them later to some nice choking point like Suez.

DemonArchangel

05-04-2007, 17:59

SwordsMaster

05-04-2007, 18:06

No, no, no, the Fallschirmjaeger have to be used to take Crete.

Otherwise, the 21st PzD hits the 6th Australian. 3rd PzD will stay in reserve and blunt any counterattack made by the 7th AD, while staying ready to exploit any gaps created in the British lines. 15th PzD will support the Italians directly in their assault on Mersa Matruh

Then, when 3rd and 21st PzD are done, they will wheel around behind British lines, with taking Alamein and cutting off the retreat of 7th AD as their intention.

Well, they can be used to take Crete from N.Africa just fine. It is within reach. And small scale insertions will allow us to cut down casualties derived from crossing minefields while being shelled by zeroed in artillery.

Besides, Crete is a secondary target now. We need to get to the oilfields in 6 months. Not that much time even if we were just driving, and we aren't.

Stig

05-04-2007, 18:20

Crete isn't important if we have Egypt. It will only cost the English to keep occupying it.

2, 3, 4, 5

That's the same as 1

AggonyDuck

05-04-2007, 18:34

I'd personally do things like this.

First phase:
Assault and secure the two remaining boxes outside the next minefield and clear up a proper supply route.

Second phase:
Send both the 21. PD and the 15. PD division up to the plateau and make a dash towards the Qattara depression, thus cutting off the two divisions on the plateau. Ariete will follow the two Panzer divisions and secure their rear. In the meanwhile one of the Italian infantry divisions occupies the area vacated by Ariete. Additionally the 3. PD will return back to the coast and act as our reserve. Once Trieste has secured Siwa and Kufra, it could take over the position at the southern flank.

After these two phases we can see what needs to be done next.

My opinion is that this is pretty much our best option at the moment. Any direct assault against Mersah Matruh will be excessively costly, especially in terms of infantry, which we already lack. Additionally the minefields would make any progress relatively slow. Thus the better option is to use our mobility and cut off the supply routes to the two British divisions on the plateau. This will force a predictable British reaction; which is an simultaneous attack by both the 7th Armoured and two divisions inside the pocket in hopes of breaking out. This is a far better option than attacking those boxes directly, additionally it will force the 7th Armoured to attack, during which we could maul the 7th Armoured good enough to enable a counterattack to seize Fuka and also thus trap the 4th Indian division in Mersah Matruh.

How about 2,3,4 and 5. This is the defining moment of the battle.The British are starting to brake and we have run them over,we cant let them get away this time by withdrawing,so use our numbers and put pressure everywhere and also call for the Fallschirmjäger so we can deploy them later to some nice choking point like Suez.

The British are far from breaking. We have only captured four of the multitude of British boxes, Mersah Matruh is still protected by a second line of boxes and minefields, they still have three unengaged divisions and we do not have the numbers to pressure them everywhere. Our only "fresh" divisions at the moment are the 15. and 21. PD, even the 3. PD is only half-strength. But that said, if we concentrate our force instead of dispersing it, we do have a very good chance of winning a decisive victory against the British.

Also to the others of you who seem to fancy selecting "2,3,4 and 5", allow me quote Guderian to you.
"Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern." ("You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread.")
By dispersing our effort instead of concentrating it, we will not have the overwhelming force required for a quick victory in any sector. This would be a huge error in my opinion.

Rodion Romanovich

05-04-2007, 21:25

@Aggony: excellent, this is what I had in mind too ~:)

DemonArchangel

05-06-2007, 04:03

Aggony: you're right on this one. Stupid me for thinking that we can assault the box.

Lord Winter

05-06-2007, 05:01

I'm not sure if we can hold the two divisions from a breakout attempt esspicly if they have the assistiance of the 7th armor and the inventable reinforcements that will come in the time we need to shufle around the divisions. Thereforth I propose that we first take the two boxs. Then strike the southern gap between 10 ind and 6 austr with the 3rd and 23rd pd while Ariete makes an holding attack on the australlians as 15th panzer strikes the left flank of the indians. Bresica who will await in reserve at the gap. At this the british will proably commit 7th armor which 3rd and 23rd panzer division will be able to attack simmiltanislouy and defeat. Bresica can be commited to break them. Once 7th armor is defeated 15th panzer and Bresica will roll up the british flank while the 23rd and 3rd panzer move to cut up and incircle all three divisions if possiable if not they will countinue to apply presure hopfully pushing them over the depression where we can trap them against the sea.

SwordsMaster

05-06-2007, 16:27

I do support Aggony's plan, but I think the paras should be shipped over anyway. It won't hurt. And there is a lot of desert to cover.

Rodion Romanovich

05-06-2007, 16:37

I agree we might as well for the FJs already now, so they're ready for the next offensive.

DemonArchangel

05-06-2007, 19:50

No, no, no. Crete has to be taken, because we don't have the naval transport capacity to perform a conventional landing on Crete, thus leaving them as the only option. Doing paradrops in North Africa would be suicidal and a waste of FJs to say the least. We'd be better served with a Panzergrenadier division in North Africa.

Rodion Romanovich

05-06-2007, 20:01

We have no use for Crete if we take Egypt. If we take Egypt, the British on Crete will either surrender, or try to escape by sea (giving us good chance of attacking their fleet), or they will already have escaped by the time we threaten the Suez, so we get Crete for free instead of by losing thousands of FJs, besides we keep a British garrison tied down there instead of letting it reinforce their line in North Africa and making it impossible to breakthrough at El Alamein. Besides we've damaged most British airfields on Crete already, meaning it's almost no threat to us.

The FJs will be very useful in North Africa to drop in smaller numbers to conduct raids, or capture key supply locations and chokepoints before the British main forces retreat to them. While these positions are behind enemy lines they have small garrisons and can easily be taken by the FJs, but when the enemy retreats to them in larger numbers they're almost impossible to break through even for our regular forces. Remember the style the FJs were used at Eben Emael in Fall Gelb - that was by no means suicidal but highly effective in achieving a breakthrough. I'm sure we can find several targets of a similar type to attack in our next offensive.

Stig

05-06-2007, 20:04

An Airborne attack can only be succesfull if they recieve support.
In Africa our FJ get support, in Crete they are on their own. We lost loads of men on Malta, do we want that again?
Sides as Legio said Crete is of no use to us.

Franconicus

05-08-2007, 16:11

Chapter 59– Agony
Mersa Matruh, July 16th – 19th

It is early morning when the German and Italian guns start a new deadly symphony. Hundreds of cannons are drumming on the remaining boxes of the British first line for defense. After two hours, the intense bombardment stops. Italian and German assault platoons cross the minefield to take the last stands of the British. The Axis soldiers can imagine what has been going on at the boxes. Although they hope that all defenders are dead, they feel kind of pity with their enemies.
When they cross no man’s land, they expect to receive volleys from the boxes. Nothing! Is this a lousy trick? When the Italians reach the first fort, the Indian defenders leave their trenches with raised arms. Their eyes are filled with horror.
At the second box, the situation is even worse. There are no defenders that are able to surrender. The Italian riflemen find dead and wounded enemies.
Now, that the first line of defense has fallen, Hoth receives bad news. A battalion of the Australian 6. Infantry Division attacked the descent from the plateau. They took the Italian infantrymen by surprise and took the box that controls point of strategic relevance. Hoth realizes that this could mean, that his operation plan is impossible to execute. He jumps into a car, picks up Ramcke and they drive to the front.
When they finally arrive, the situation changed once more. The commander of Ariete, realizing that his tank force is cut off, decided to turn around and to assault the stronghold with his tank forces. After a fierce combat, the Italian tanks and the mounted infantry pushes back the Australians. The entrance to the plain is under control again.
Hoth sends a messenger to the 21.PD, immediately. He wants to secure the descent and attack the plateau as soon as possible. In the evening the first advanced bodies of the 21. arrive and deploy on the plateau. The Australians, recognizing the threat at their right flank, start new attacks. The 21. together with Italian forces repels them.
In the meanwhile Hoth and Ramcke are back at the HQ. Hoth gives orders to the division. Next morning, 21. will enter the plateau and attack the Australian division, while 15. will follow. Ariete will hold the fort until both German divisions are on the plateau. Then it will be replaced by Brescia.
Hoth also receives the current status of combat strength. Brescia has only 50%, Trento about 70%, Ariete has lost about 40%. The current stock of artillery ammo has decreased to 50%. Fuel is no issue, but there is a significant lack of medicine. There are too many wounded. Diarrhoea is rampant. Water is getting tight, too. There is not enough clean water to supply seven divisions.
While Hoth is still reading these reports, he receives several messages. At first he receives a telegram from the Italian Governor at Africa. He tells him that the Italian divisions are too exhausted to continue the operation and requests that they are pulled back. Between the lines you can read that he blames Hoth for spilling Italian blood while sparing German lives.
The next message comes from the front. Captured Australians told their wardens that there are two additional divisions at another line of defense near El Alamein. They are fresh, fully equipped and ready for combat.
Hoth also receives a message from the Führer himself. He tells him to break through immediately, without caring about casualties.
At Syria the situation is still contradictorily. Some sources tell that there is a hard fight between the British and the French forces, other tell that the French soldiers change have joined the invaders.
Hoth decides to ignore the news and to execute his plans. During night the 21. and the 15. march to their starting position, while the 3. moves northwards.
Next day the battle continues. 21. PD advances on the plateau only to find that the Australians retreated under the cover of the night. Air patrols report that the Australian 6. and the Indian 10. are retreating eastwards. It also reports that convoys are leaving Mersa and that there is a huge column of smoke at Baggush. Hoth immediately gives orders for a general offensive. 21. and 15. hurry to catch the Australians on the plateau, Brescia and Trento advance towards Mersa and Ariete advances Baggush. Everywhere the Commonwealth troops are retreating. However, the Axis’ troops cannot follow as soon as they like. The Italian divisions and the 3rd are trammeled by the remaining mine fields, while the 21. and the 15. have to pass the bottleneck between the plateau and the plain. Hoth send the air force to slow the British down, Wavell sends his planes to bomb the German divisions at the descent.
In the afternoon the German tank divisions get in contact with the rearguards of the Australians. The Australians perform a mobile defense to slow the Germans down and to protect the rest of their division. In the evening, the Germans overwhelm the rearguard, but the main body is gone.
The Italian divisions occupy Mersa, Baggaush and Gerawla. In the evening they are 10 miles from Fuka. Here the defence of the Indians is getting stiffer and the advance comes to a halt.
Hoth urges the German tank commanders to dog the Indian 10th. Early next morning Model’s 3. PD reaches the second descent. Just like the first, it is secured by a stronghold. One battalion is sill on the plateau. Model attacks immediately. This time the descent is a bottleneck for the Indians. Although they try to hold the fort, the German tanks smash their positions. Many Indians surrender. However, the stronghold itself withstands the assault of the Germans. Only after the arrival of the division’s artillery the Germans are able to break through the Indian lines. Once they have taken the fort, 3. PD starts to march down to the plain while the other two tank divisions approach the descent.
The British General Wavell sees the danger for his front, but he also sees the opportunity to attack the now isolated 3. Panzerdivision. During night the Desert Air Force flies a strong raid against the German tank division. The remaining forces of the Indian 10. force the German tanks into a nightly battle, supported by elements of Australian 6. Division and 7. Armoured Division. During this battle he Indian 10. Division gets completely annihilated. However, the Germans have terrible casualties. Having lost almost their complete tank force, they are forced to leave the plain and to retreat to the plateau.
At the light of the new day - it is the July 19th – the 21. and 15. PD have reached the edge of the plateau. They position their artillery at the seam of the plateau and fire on the British and Australian soldiers. The British have to retreat once again. They give up their position and retreat to the next line of defence – El Alamein.
The German tank divisions cannot leave the plateau fast enough to hinder the British retreat, the Italians are too weak. Therefore the British can pull their divisions back, only bothered by the Axis’ air forces, which control the skies again.
In the evening Hoth and Ramcke make a resume. The Indian 10. Division has been destructed, the Indian 4. has lost at least half of its strength. Australian 6. Division has lost about 30% of its strength.
On the German side, Brescia is almost completely out of the game. Trento has lost 30%, Ariete about 60% of her combat strength. The German 15. and 21. Panzerdivision have almost full combat strength, but the 3. Panzerdivision has had severe casualties. The moral of the Italian soldiers is low. The capture of Baggush Box has solved most of the Axis supply problems, but water is still tight.
The Axis’ air forces dominate the skies. The ratio of fighters is 3:2, the ratio of bombers is 3:1. However, the conditions are getting worse, as fewer planes are ready for combat and the distance to the airbases is getting longer.
Reconnaissance patrols show that the British try to settle at El Alamein. The new defence is build by two infantry divisions, the Australian 7th and 9th. The Indian 4th, the Australian 6th and the almost fresh 7th Armoured are behind that line.
Finally Hoth receives a message from Trieste. The Italian commander reports that the raids against his supply are getting stronger. Therefore he decided to stop the advance at Jarabub. He asks for orders.
Ramcke asks Hoth about his opinion.
Hoth: “Well, I think we have to attack immediately, before the British are able to build a strong defence.”
Ramcke:” According to our sources the two Australian divisions are lying at El Alamein for weeks. Probably they already have built strong fortifications. Don’t you think it is risky to attack immediately? Our divisions are exhausted and we do not have superior numbers any longer.”
Hoth: “We still have more tanks. What we do not have is time. It may be risky, but we do not have time to waste.”
Ramcke: “Well, we should wait two weeks to reorganize our supply. We could call Trieste back. We could use the vehicles of Brescia and Bologna to mobilize Pavia. Then we could deploy two Italian infantry divisions, one motorized division plus half a tank division. Together with our two German tank divisions we would have a superior force, again. If we wait two more weeks, the main part of the 4. PD will arrive.”
Hoth shakes his head: “It is mid-July, now. And we are only 100 miles from Alexandria.”

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Karte_%C3%84gyptens.png

SwordsMaster

05-08-2007, 16:21

We need good reconnaissance, air and otherwise. It'd be silly to attack or take any decision without good recon. So why don't we move our entire airforce to shell the fortifications at Alamein, to disrupt works and see what's going on. After we have had a look we'll decide if the fortifications are possible to take by storm or not...

Kagemusha

05-08-2007, 17:12

Ramcke is right.Regroup and resupply.Then attack again. What we need is an German infantry Corps,or atleast an elite german infantry Division. Im depressed how the damned Brits are getting away from our pincers each time.Also are the Fallschirmjäger been called to the front? I think we should organice first so we can create an solid infantry front against the British and start pounding them with artillery and airplanes.They have no reserves to speak of,so i would deploy the entire Fallschirmjäger troop behind El Alamein on convinient spot and cut the British from their supply.Then create an hammer by unleashing all our panzer divisions on their Southern flank and rear. By deploying the Fallschirm jägers behind the enemy´s main line before the Southern hammer they cant run anywhere. If we win that battle we have open road all the way to Syria.

DemonArchangel

05-08-2007, 17:59

The British have 5 divisions at Alexandria, and an unknown quantity of reserves. We can't just rush headlong into their guns.

Rest up, reorganize, resupply, then strike. Also, give some medals out to the Italians. Sure, colored pieces of ribbon mean nothing, but it would be an important morale boost. The Italians are fighting surprisingly hard, give them the recognition they deserve.

And I think Jarabub is one of the sources of the British raids on our supply lines. Tell the commander of Trieste to resupply, and then try to capture Jarabub. Otherwise those SAS will never stop raiding us.

That and Kagemusha's right. We need more German infantry. We should have gotten an extra Panzergrenadier division earlier. If Hitler really doesn't care about casualties, he'll send extra German infantry to North Africa.

I still think the FSJ should be used to take Crete, that we, we can have a reliable air and naval base to get bombers to nail Alexandria with.

As for El Alamein, I'll think of something later.

Rodion Romanovich

05-08-2007, 19:00

I agree, rest these two weeks to get superior force, proper supply, rested troops and higher morale. Those defenses at El Alamein have already been constructed. Also make sure proper air fields are prepared and taken into action closer to the front. We will need good air support and artillery at El Alamein. The previous battles have shown how important it is to control the skies. Also, historically in these battles the German air force concentrated on British planes more than on supporting the ground troops. I think we should change that and make sure the German planes attack British tanks, artillery and defensive positions to a greater extent.

AggonyDuck

05-08-2007, 19:58

I am with Hoth here. Our chances to break through the El Alamein line will not increase with a rest and refit. The Mersah Matruh position was propably intended to be the main defence position, especially considering the extensive minefields and fortifications, with El Alamein being the fall back position. This would mean that currently the El Alamein position is less fortified than Mersah Matruh was, but given time it will change.

If we wait two more weeks before acting, the British will use that time to reinforce their position even further by laying extensive minefields, digging further entrenchments and reinforcing their position with further formations. This will negate all the chances of quick breakthrough followed by a mobile battle and instead turn the battle into a battle of attrition, for which we do not have the necessary infantry.

Lets put things into perspective, three days ago we were still fighting around Mersah Matruh. The British haven't yet had the chance to properly organise a defence of the El Alamein line and we shouldn't give them that chance either. The British defences are still relatively weak and at a bottleneck like this we cannot afford to let them grow any stronger.

If you disagree with me, please explain to me what are the advantages that we would gain by waiting two weeks and how do these affect our relative strength to the British position?

Kagemusha

05-08-2007, 21:17

Lord Winter

05-09-2007, 05:54

I'm mixed here. We should countinue to press the advantage, but if we're going to just hit our head against a wall it's worthless. So the true question is how fortified is the El Aleimen.

Lets take a look at the ground

[img=https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/519/elalmeinmm0.th.jpg] (https://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elalmeinmm0.jpg)

It's fairly broken, esspicly on the south, making it bad ground for tanks and I don't like the mountains that aproch the cost by the marker for the battle. They create to much of a choke point. This will be a battle of arriation thier is no way around it except to try to negate this using the FG to assist in our opperations simmler to the way they did in france.

So I'd say advance and dig in deep for any potential british counterattacks (which there will be) and prepare for the next attack. Concentrate as much artillary as we can on one or two points and send in the FJ to get in thier rear and disrupt thier supplys and communacations. From thier go in infiltration style heavy tactical out flanking on a concentrated point. From their the path to alexandria is open.

King Kurt

05-09-2007, 08:47

We should rest and recouperate. El Aleimen will be another infantry/artillery slog - obviously their is some defence there already and we can't rush through that. Also, leave the FJ out of any attack - landing them behind the El Alemein postion before we have broken through is a recipe for disaster - for an example of an airbourne force landing near armour and not being relieved see the battle of Arnhem. The English have proved a tough defensive army and El Aleimen is a pefect defensive position. also the 7th armoured is basically intact - we have a lot to do and i see us not getting to Alex soon.

Rodion Romanovich

05-09-2007, 09:16

@Aggony: my main reason for waiting is to get artillery and air support to the front. Our losses of the almost entire tank force of 3. PD is a good demonstration of the importance of air support. During these 2 weeks we should be able to make several air fields closer to the front operational. I also think the assumption that the El Alamein defenses aren't built up yet is risky to make, seeing as we have no recon at all on the matter. Thirdly, the troop strength of our side will increase a lot over this time for most divisions, whereas for the British it probably won't increase as much.

Kagemusha

05-09-2007, 13:17

Franc,do you have an good map of the area of El Alamein that shows the geography,so i could show my plan on the map? My wiew is that the British positions are between The Sea and the the long line of West-East pointed ridges? I think that those ridges could provide us an exellent chance to surround the British 7th army completely,we just have to close the gaps from West and East and the British have nowhere to go.If i would get a deacent map i could show this.
By deploying the Paras,i dont mean to deploy them week ahead to the rear of the 7th army.With our larger amount of panzer divisions and the lesser amount of British Divisions,they cant defend well the area South to them. All we need to do is to block the Western end with infantry and artillery and start bombarding the British positions,while most of our panzer divisions will move South from British positions,protected by the West-East ridge lines,which will prohibit British from deploying their armour to South. Once our first Panzer Division reaches the end of the ridge lines,we should deploy the Fallschirmjäger to create a block behind the British supported by our armoured elements.
If we succeed in that,we have trapped the British 7th army completely between Sea and desert on area where are no deep sea ports for evacuation and can pound the British to dust. We just have to deploy our fallschirm jäger with large amount of anti tank mines to create large minefields around them so the British armor cant escape East.The Fallschirm jäger will take care of any infantry formations that will try to do the same. Once the British are exhausted,we will pour in our panzer divisions, from both ends of the pocket.

SwordsMaster

05-09-2007, 13:22

Ok, so since we have decided to sit and wait, I guess our targets are:

Air:

Continue pounding the RAF to increase our superiority even further. Establish a good AA defence along out frontline.

Build bases close to the front to increase the range of our activities and specially recon.

Thorough reconnaissance of the enemy position from the air.

Bombing of division junctions, artillery positions, HQ, ammo depos.

Bombing tanks! With our bomber supriority, and the concentration of tanks at the fortifications, this should be like shooting fish in a barrel. The 7 armoured can be reduced to half combat strength without getting in close...

Land:

Reinforcements. Remove the Jararabub resistance to avoid raids into our back.

Bring in the paras. We might not need them now, but we'll need them later.

Raise the morale of the italians by mentioning them in our reports and giving out a few medals. Also get that film crew we had to make some kind of propaganda film of our army, focusing on the italian parts and pass it to the italian command to keep them shut.

Sea:

Well, not much we can do in this area...

_________________________________________

Also, this is another thing I wanted to discuss:

What if:

We set up camp in front of Alamein with our main forces, and send an armoured division south, across the hills to get to the Nile and then follow it north towards Suez, bypassing the british fortifications. Our paras should be shipped over as well, operating as 2 additional infantry divisions. That will allow us to open another front with 3 divisions: 2 para, and 1 armoured.

There are several advantages to this: Apart from the encircling effect, the brits might shift forces away from Alamein, which would allow a direct breakthrough and a dash for Alexandria. Otherwise, their reinforcements coming from the South would be effectively cutoff, and we'll be able to reach the Suez channel unexpectedly, which would severely disrupt their willingness to wage war, and might collapse their entire African Army. I mean, it is not every day you wake up with 3 divisions in the very same place you are trying to defend...

It will be tough, but hell, if Hannibal walked across the Alps, I am sure our tanks can make it. They will have to be mostly air-supplied.

Kagemusha

05-09-2007, 13:50

Is this anywhere near of the British deployments?

https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7695/britishdeploymentsf5.jpg

Franconicus

05-09-2007, 15:30

Can you post the map without the units´?

Kagemusha

05-09-2007, 15:37

If you mean without the ones i draw there with red,there it is::bow:

http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Historical/DR-el_alamein_map.jpg

AggonyDuck

05-09-2007, 17:36

Also, this is another thing I wanted to discuss:

What if:

We set up camp in front of Alamein with our main forces, and send an armoured division south, across the hills to get to the Nile and then follow it north towards Suez, bypassing the british fortifications. Our paras should be shipped over as well, operating as 2 additional infantry divisions. That will allow us to open another front with 3 divisions: 2 para, and 1 armoured.

There are several advantages to this: Apart from the encircling effect, the brits might shift forces away from Alamein, which would allow a direct breakthrough and a dash for Alexandria. Otherwise, their reinforcements coming from the South would be effectively cutoff, and we'll be able to reach the Suez channel unexpectedly, which would severely disrupt their willingness to wage war, and might collapse their entire African Army. I mean, it is not every day you wake up with 3 divisions in the very same place you are trying to defend...

It will be tough, but hell, if Hannibal walked across the Alps, I am sure our tanks can make it. They will have to be mostly air-supplied.

This idea will not work. The Qattara Depression is quite impassable for vehicles. Firstly there is the difficulty of getting the vehicles down through the depression. Then there is the matter of saline pans and Fech Fech that can be very similar to quicksand for vehicles. Add to that the lack of water and you have a logistical nightmare at your hands. Air supply would hardly work either; you cannot drop enough water, supplies, oil and food required by three divisions.

DemonArchangel

05-09-2007, 22:00

Actually, I changed my mind. Do what Aggony Duck suggested.

The British have retreated 200 km in the last 3 days and are exhausted. We might be too, but there is no better time to fight them than right now.

And I still say we should use the FSJ to take Crete, because if we're going to take Alamein, we're definitely going to have to stop and dig in after taking it, and we can't be vulnerable to British airstrikes from that location.

AggonyDuck

05-10-2007, 00:33

This might be a nice read http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Egyp-c13.html; it's Chapter 13 of the official NZ WWII history.

I'm personally rather unsure of what to think at the moment. I've been reading this electronic book since yesterday and it revealed some interesting things. Firstly the Mersah Matruh position was built in 1940 against the Italians and was propably just quickly reinforced for our battle. Additionally in 1942 the Mersah Matruh position wasn't meant to be held at all costs; and the right decision would had been to outflank it instead of a frontal assault.

Anyway Kage, we can't compare Rommel's attack with ours. The Afrikakorps had at the of the First Battle of El Alamein 55 tanks available for the assault, atleast according to the NZ history. Our two remaining Panzer Divisions should have over 300 tanks available. But that said a rest of two weeks might be useful, so that we can do proper reconnaisance, rest and be prepared for the final assault.

About the FJ; their only use for us in this campaign would be as infantry formations. Paradrops in the desert are very risky business, especially when it comes to water supply. But that said a FJ brigade or division would be a good replacement for the Italian losses.

Btw, here's a nice map of the El Alamein area.

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Egyp/WH2Egy24a.jpg

Lord Winter

05-10-2007, 02:38

I'm also going to change my vote, lets take a chance at it. I would say attempt an drive through the gap by the Quattra box with a large part of our armored aimed at cuting the british retreat off as the rest of our army attacks frontly. Such as the one Kage and Sowrdmaster have been discussing.

As for the FJ, I think they would be wasted solely being called up as infentry. Instead we should ask hittler for a germen division to make up our ittalian loses. An operation on crete would be useful but if we do encircle the 8th here then obiviously thier is limited value.

Franconicus

05-10-2007, 08:06

So what? :embarassed:

Option 1) Attack right now!
Option 2) Wait and reinfirce for 2 weeks!
Option 3) Wait for four weeks until Fallschirmjäger arrive!

AggonyDuck

05-10-2007, 09:24

I'm going to go with wait and reinforce for two weeks. But that said, reinforcing doesn't mean that we should sit idle. Instead thorough information about the El Alamein line should be acquired, so that we will actually have some advantage from the whole thing.

SwordsMaster

05-10-2007, 09:47

From thatg map above, there is some kind of road going to Cairo, bypassing the british positions, and not going straight through the Qattara depression. Is that road more viable for what I suggested above?

Franconicus

05-10-2007, 10:13

You have three approaches:

The approaches to the position follow three main lines—the coast road and railway, the Barrel track from Fuka through Deir el Munassib and Qaret el Munassib and Qaret el Himeimat to the Cairo—Alexandria road, and, in the south, along threads of good going north of the escarpment. The escarpment is almost impassable to wheeled or tracked vehicles for about 125 miles west of Naqb Abu Dweis. Salt marsh and sand dunes make the Qattara Depression a complete obstacle to the passage of vehicle columns of any size. Throughout the length of the line the ground generally is rocky and power tools and explosives are required for excavation. Patches of scrub and soft sand complicate movements by transport.

Kagemusha

05-10-2007, 15:07

Franc can we get the British deployments?:study: We cant make a good strategy without knowing the enemys position. If the enemy is almost an a colum between the ridges and Sea, I think during the next two weeks we should resupply and move in positions for starting another attack. It seems as if our forces dont know the term, "to bind the enemy on a battle".Either we are sitting still or all out assaulting.
But incase they have occupied a line so long to cover the Southern roads,we should attack them immediately,becouse they are deployed way too thin to stop our panzer divisions.
Incase of scenario A.During the coming two weeks our Divisional and Armygroups artillery should be pounding the enemy and our Divisions should scout the enemys positions.The main thing for our next assault will be to deny the British from withdrawing and creating yet again another line further East. In my wiew ways to trap them is a naval landing behind them or airborne operation. Since i believe we cant execute the naval landing,we should deploy the elite fallschirmjäger behind them. With an German infantry Corps and the Fallschirm jäger we can completely annihilate the British 7th army,which is btw the only way for us to have any serious possibilities to reach our goal.
Currently the British are fighting an succesfull delaying action and if they continue that succesfully,we wont have a chance to fullfill our mission. If Hitler orders us to attack on all costs,can we get German Infantry Divisions? That shouldnt be too much to ask. I think we could ship a Corps in a month. Im already wandering how OKW have planned the occupation of Egypt,when our task forces mission is to continue straight on the Arabian oil fields. Without Infantry we cant do that.

DemonArchangel

05-10-2007, 15:57

Kagemusha

05-10-2007, 16:20

Kage, we should do reconnaissance, but we really shouldn't bombard them for two weeks straight. That would just cause our guns to break down when we need them the most.

We should keep bombardments brief yet intense.

I change my vote to resting for two weeks while we gather intelligence on the Alamein line.

Meanwhile, we'll need to capture Crete. Yes, I keep mentioning Crete, because it's vitally important if we're going to capture Alexandria later. If we take Crete, the British will have to concentrate their ships in Alexandria, making them easy to destroy. Also, taking Crete vastly reduces our vulnerability to bombardment.

DA im not talking about two week bombardment,but continuos use of artillery.Once we spot an pillbox or an artillery battery we shoot it to smithereens with concentrated barrage,by this we will inflict casulties and hit the morale of British divisions.
About Crete.We know pretty well what happened in Crete in reality.Without a large naval landing we will destroy our Fallschirmjäger troops on its mountains without traditional support of heavy weapons.I dont see the benefit,when we capture Alexandria,British have to abandon Crete anyway.

Franconicus

05-10-2007, 16:27

We cant make a good strategy without knowing the enemys position.
Rommel did it and failed!:laugh4:

You do not know a lot, but the British defense goes from El Alamein to Naqh Abu Dweis. Again it is mainly focused on boxes. El Al is more a less one box, the line of defense goes around it.

For more details you have to chose reconnaisance, though.

Kagemusha

05-10-2007, 16:31

Rommel did it and failed!:laugh4:

You do not know a lot, but the British defense goes from El Alamein to Naqh Abu Dweis. Again it is mainly focused on boxes. El Al is more a less one box, the line of defense goes around it.

For more details you have to chose reconnaisance, though.

Then there is no other sensible option then wait and recon.We cant storm the enemy without identifying the targets.What about the German Infantry Divisions?:beam:

Rodion Romanovich

05-10-2007, 16:58

To those who wish to attack right away: there's no way we can break through 5 divisions in heavily fortified ground in a quick full frontal assault. It'll take time to break the El Alamein position, and it will take superior supplies and superior air and artillery support. This battle will not be won by our troops, but by our engineers. They must get airfields close to the combat area operational, and the roads must allow transportation of huge amonts of artillery to the battles. I agree to the plan to wait 2 weeks for now. Whether to assault or not after that time, will have to be decided in the next chapter I think, when we have received reconnaissance. Monty won his battle at El Alamein through a two day well prepared artillery campaign towards key targets in the enemy positions after his opponents had already taken heavy losses in tanks. Artillery campaigns of that type, along with supporting air bombardments, is the strategy we should use here. The infantry should hold a line while our explosive stuff bombards the enemy line, our tanks should remain safely behind that line except during shorter small scale assaults of individual positions whenever an opportunity presents itself to advance easily.

Franconicus

05-11-2007, 14:28

Chapter 60– The way to Alexandria
Naples, July 20th

Hoth finally gives in and agrees to interrupt the invasion. He and Ramcke will increase their efforts to mobilize as many reserves at possible. For that reason, Ramcke and Hoth decide to fly to Naples. There is the place to accelerate supply and to get more support from the army, navy and air force.
An officer is already waiting for them at the airport of Naples. He tells them that they have to fly straight to a conference at Rome. There a driver and a car are already waiting for them. They bring them to a palace outside of the Italian capitol. In front of the building there are many big cars, signed as army vehicles. When Hoth and Ramcke enter the meeting room they find themselves among a group of high ranked German and Italian officers. There is Keitel, Canaris, Student, Stosch and Geisler as well as Gariboldi and a couple of Italian generals and admirals like Marchesi, Iachino and Roatta.
Keitel opens the conference: “Gentlemen, the purpose of this meeting is to discuss the situation at Africa and to adjust our strategy for the future. Frankly spoken, the German High Command is not pleased with the results so far. It is true, we are winning every battle, but until now we haven’t been able to break the British army up. Again and again the British have been able to elude, to build up new lines of defence and to fill their rows with reinforcements. What was planned as a new lightning campaign has turned into a never ending series of abrasion battles. We do not have time to continue like this. We expect the US to enter war within the next couple of months. The position of the Soviets is uncertain. We have to consolidate our position and to prepare ourselves on the new challenges. The Führer decided, - and the Duce agrees completely – that we will take Alexandria and Sues Channel until end of August.”

Iachino: “You talk about common goals and strategy. How can we achieve those, when only one of us is fighting? I lead my fleet into battle, relying on the guaranteed support of the German air force. They had promised reconnaissance and bombers. I had to return after a disastrous defeat, because my German allies had let me down.”

Geisler: “I admit that the cooperation in this case was not perfect. But consider where would you be now without a German force fighting at Africa?”
Gariboldi: “Fighting at Africa? Which German force is actual fighting at Africa? Hoth has two Italian corps and two German corps. After the battle of Mersa Matruh the Italian divisions are bled, while the German hardly fired a single shot. Our infantry had to assault through mine fields and artillery fire, while their German allies were just sitting and waiting.”
Keitel: “Gentlemen, we are not here to talk about mistakes happened in the past. We have to find a way to win this war. Hoth, what are the reasons for the unpleasant situation at Africa?”

Hoth: “There are several reasons. First of all, the enemy is pumping as many forces into the battle as possible. After each battle we have to face fresh divisions with unlimited supply. The RAF is supporting the British army very effectively and the numbers of planes is increasing continuously. The second reason is supply. We cannot get enough for a continuous invasion. Water is an issue as well as shells for the artillery or spare parts for vehicles and planes. The third reason is, that we do not have enough troops to break the British forces once and forever. We need at least another infantry corps.”
Stosch: “However, as you said before, we are not able to supply the divisions that you have already.”

Gariboldi: “You had an infantry corps and you wasted it. We do not accept any longer, that you use the Italian soldiers as cannon fodder!”
Keitel: “Then what is your proposal to achieve the goals in time?”
Hoth: “We have to refresh, resupply and reinforce the Panzergruppe before we continue the operation. We need more infantry, more planes, more supply. Then we will make another try. We could use Pavia. It’s already in Africa. With the trucks of Brescia and Bologna it can be motorized and enter the battle. There is also Savona.”

Gariboldi: “Savona has to protect our base at Tripoli. We do not know what is going on at Syria, but after all we have to anticipate that the French army in the colonies will defect and support the British. But anyway, I repeat myself; I am not going to scarify more Italian soldiers for the impotent German command!”

The Italian generals and admirals act rather emotional. Therefore Keitel interrupts the meeting. There are separate meetings, Keitel with Gariboldi, Gariboldi with his Italian comrades, Keitel with Hoth, Keitel with Ramcke, Ramcke with Roatti and so on.
Finally, Keitel calls again for a full scale conference to summarize the results of the sub-meetings.

“Gentlemen, we all agree that a quick and complete victory in Africa is mandatory. We also agree that we can only achieve this goal when we combine and increase our efforts. The next few weeks will be painful for all of us. However, they will decide if the Axis triumphs or fails. Everything that we spare will be lost in the coming years.

Together with my Italian colleague I have decided to create a new command, the Joint Command for Africa and Middle East. This command includes the Panzergruppe Africa, the XX. Motorized Corps and the XXI. Corps, as well as the supporting air corps and navy units. We nominate General Ramcke for the new command.

Bologna will leave the XXI. Corps and will be replaced by Pavia. An additional infantry division with two rifle regiments will be send to Africa under the direct command of the JCAM. It will arrive at Tobruk end of July. Additionally, 1. Air borne Corps with two German Fallschirmjägerdivisions and one Luftlandedivision and the transport squads, led by General Student, are under the command of the JCAM. The Air Borne corps will arrive at Naples end of July. The Italian division Folgore will be ready for combat end of August.
Luftwaffe will refill the African units as fast as possible. The Italian air force will deploy a bomber squad to improve the transport of supply.
The German Kriegsmarine will deploy 5 submarines in the Mediterranean until end of July, another 5 will be sent in August. The Italian MAS will start operations against British warships near Crete and at Alexandria. Those are scheduled for August.

The JCAM will defeat the British forces at Egypt and seize Cairo and Alexandria and block the Channel until end of August. Luftflotte 4 will support this with continuous raids against Crete and the British Navy; it will fly a mine laying mission against the Channel on request of JCAM.
As soon as the British front collapses and the RN is neutralized, 12. Army and Luftflotte 4 supported by the Italian Navy will invade Crete. After securing the sea connections, 12. Army will be transferred to Palestine, to join the JCAM campaign.

End of September, the Axis will seize Damascus and then go for the oil fields.
Gentlmen, I think this is a good agreement and I think the Führer and the Duce will welcome it. I am sure that our closeness and determination will give us victory over the British and open the door to the Endsieg!”
After the meeting, Ramcke and Hoth fly back to Africa. Ramcke’s mind is filled with thoughts. All over sudden, he is responsible for an army and the most important operation of the war.

Feel free to discuss the options!

Lord Winter

05-11-2007, 15:09

I think we should try encircling the 8th or at least a portion of it by striking through the gaps to the south with our armored followed by a few moterized divisions. The ocean and mountains will give us something to anchor our lines on. The only problem I see is if the british manage to severe the link of our forces at the gap and turn the tables on us. Thoughts?

Rodion Romanovich

05-11-2007, 15:43

I think we should go for the superiority in things-that-go-boom strategy. How long do you all think the British will hold the El Alamein line? I think they're capable of holding it until they're down to 2-3 divisions, before they'll try to retreat east. After all, all other defensive positions to the east are weaker than the El Alamein position, so if they lose here and have to retreat, they'll lose Alexandria for sure, and they are only able to put up a desperate last stand on the eastern shore of the Suez or similar.

I think a careful offensive against the El Alamein position during 1-2 weeks or so, with an emphasis on air bombing and artillery bombardment is the only way to win this. I also think this is a strategy that we're able to achieve victory through without any notable losses, and we could win with this strategy even without the additional divisions scheduled to arrive here. Basically make their casualties mount and make our bombardment suck more British troops forward, once we see an opportunity for a lighting strike to gain better defensive ground for ourselves, we send in the panzers, which otherwise are kept safely behind our fortified defensive (mined) line to avoid being destroyed by air raids while doing nothing good.

DemonArchangel

05-11-2007, 17:17

When we attack, we use artillery to hit the British in a box, focusing on their artillery and anti-tank guns, while our pioneers begin clearing the minefields. Our Brandenburgers will again infiltrate deep behind enemy lines, causing as much havoc as possible. Try to launch a raid against the headquarters the 7th Armored Division in order to paralyze their ability to respond. Our bombers and FSJ will interdict the British supply lines and airfields, further isolating them.

After our infantry create a gap, we burst through with our tanks, aiming for the Alem Halfa ridge, and then we sweep onto Alexandria.

(Also, try to move some of our airfields closer to Alamein, so that we can gain air superiority early in the battle.)

Franconicus

05-14-2007, 16:05

Chapter 60– JCAM
Tobruk, August 1st

During the last two weeks, the divisions have done a lot reconnaissance work. The starting position of the battle is much clearer now.
Alamein Line is sited between the sea coast north-east of Alamein and the northern edge of the Qattara Depression at Naqb Abu Dweis. It straddles the narrowest part of the coast belt on a front of about 38 miles and rests its flanks on the sea and the Qattara Depression.
On the coast there is a strip of salt marsh and then a belt of sand and dunes about 200 yards wide. The land then rises about sixty feet in a ridge along which the coast road runs. Below the road on the landward side there is the railway. From the road and railway the ground gradually rises over a wide and rather featureless plain to the escarpment, which drops precipitously some 600 feet into the Qattara Depression. This relatively narrow strip between the sea and the depression canalises all land traffic. The line could be penetrated, but not turned.
Of the sparse features, the most notable are the depressions such as Deir el Shein, Deir ei Mreir and Deir el Munassib. The depressions provide cover and their low ridges a degree of observation. Miteiriya, south-west of Alamein, and Ruweisat, running eastward from near Deir el Mreir, are the main ridges Towards the Qattara Depression the ground is broken into small flat-topped hills.
The approaches to the position follow three main lines—the coast road and railway, the Barrel track from Fuka through Deir el Munassib and Qaret el Munassib and Qaret el Himeimat to the Cairo—Alexandria road, and, in the south, along threads of good going north of the escarpment. The escarpment is almost impassable to wheeled or tracked vehicles for about 125 miles west of Naqb Abu Dweis. Salt marsh and sand dunes make the Qattara Depression a complete obstacle to the passage of vehicle columns of any size. Throughout the length of the line the ground generally is rocky and power tools and explosives are required for excavation. Patches of scrub and soft sand complicate movements by transport.
The British defence rests on three boxes or defended localities around Alamein station, at Qaret el Abd (Fort Kaponga), and at Naqb Abu Dweis. There is also a smaller stronghold at Deir el Shein.
Alamein Box has been designed to hold a division and a corps headquarters. The box is roughly semi-circular with the flanks resting on the sea, the coast road diameter being 7½ miles and the perimeter 15½ miles. Alamein station is approximately in the centre. There are twenty forward company positions backed by a further seventeen, all mutually supporting and designed for all round defence. Concrete pillboxes have been built. A serious ‘soft’ spot in the box is the gap between localities 15 and 17 [in the south-western segment]. The Eastern sector is at no stage a serious obstacle to a determined attack from the East.
Between the boxes the British are working frenetically to build mine fields and wire obstacles. Neither the boxes nor the defence between the boxes have been accomplished. The British used local workers to improve the fortifications; these were sent back three days ago.
The El Alamein line is occupied by the British XIII. Corps and the Australian I. Corps under the command of Lt Gen John Lavarack. There are 5 divisions: 7. Australian and 9. Australian Division, both veterans of the first battle of Tobruk, the 6. Australian and 4. Indian Division, both enervated after the Mersa battle and the 7. Armored.
The forces deployed at El Alamein are part of a new 8th Army. Commander is General Sir Alan Gordon Cunningham, headquarter is at Cairo. New Commander Middle East is General Auchinleck.
Air patrols report that there are eastward bound truck columns from El Alamein. This could indicate that the British are preparing another retreat.
After a series of defeats and retreats, being outnumbered especially regarding tanks all the time, most of the questioned prisoners are frustrated and unsatisfied with their leaders. However, most are still optimistic that the British army will stop the advance of the Axis.
Radio intelligence intercepted an order from Churchil himself. It tells Auchinleck that El Alamein is the last stand for the 8th Army, and has to be held at any cost. However, there are also signs that the rear units at Alexandria and Cairo are preparing evacuation. At the HQ of the Alexandria squadron documents are burned.
Intelligence also reports of troop shipping from Crete to Port Said. Several convoys from Britain, India and America will arrive at Sues in the next couple of days. A local intelligencer reports of troop movements close to Sues, “including a big amount of tanks”.
The Desert Air Force has received more planes. A report says that they have now a number of four engine bombers made in the US. It is also reported that these planes have unbelievable properties regarding bomb load, range and arming. The Head Quarter believes that these planes could be able to raid the Romanian oil fields as well as the Italian capitol. Both threats are rated as ‘very critical’.
In the meantime, parts of the 4. Panzerdivision arrived. The 39. Corps with the 3. and the 4. PD has however only 50% of its nominal strength. General Schmidt has the command, again. The German 15. and 21. PD are ready for combat. Hoth decided to take over the command of the 41. Corps until Rommel will be able to return.
Ariete has still only 50% of its tanks. Trento has been fairly refilled and reequipped. Bologna and Brescia has been replaced by Pavia. Trieste has raided Siwa and destroyed the British base there. However, due to supply problems, the division is now on the way back to Mersa Matruh.
During the last 14 days artillery of the Axis shelled positions of the British forces, mainly artillery positions and supply centres. The air forces flew a couple of missions mainly against the /. Armored Division. Although the RAF has been very passive, they organized a strong defence of their own air space.
In Syria the defence of the French forces is coming to an end. However, the government of Iraq is getting more and more hostile against the British.
In a public speech, President Roosevelt condemned the invasion of Egypt. He asks the Axis to withdraw immediately or “America would find the right reply”. Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to protect British convoys in the Southern Atlantic as well as in the western half of the Northern Atlantic.

Time for an operational plan!!

https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3416/elal1kb7.jpg

Kagemusha

05-14-2007, 17:44

They are spread out so the three front divisions have a line of almost 40 miles long. This means we can effectively concentrate our forces against them.I propose a following plan.

Overall plan.

Italian XX Motorized and XXI Corps supported by German heavy artillery engineers will bind enemys 7th and 6th Australian divisions into battle.
German 39th and 41st Corps will attack Australian 9th division. Once it has been heavily engaged,German Luftlande Division under the command of Panzer gruppe Africa acting as infantry division will penetrate with night suprise attack supported by large amount of smoke and artillery the joint between Australian 9th and 6th divisions. Once the Australian divisions lines of communications have been severed,German 39th and 41st Corps will destroy Australian 9th division and stop any counter measures from the 7th armoured division.
Once the 9th Australian have been destroyed The German 39th corps and Luftlande Divisions will attack the Australian 6th divisions flank and rear while the Italians will attack from infront. German 41st Corps will march to North East with orders to engage 7th armoured division and destroy it on battle.

Once the 41st Corps have engaged 7th armoured division German 1st Airborne Corps will conduct an airborne Operation and will land its both Fallschirm Jäger Divisions in the Vicinity of El Hamman. The 1st Fallschirmjäger Division will defend El Hamman from any additional reserves from East while the 2nd will move to West to contact with parts of 41st Corps.Once contact has been made these troops should advance towards 4th Indian division and engage it. Depending on the situation,the 41st Corps should move second of its PD´s to help defend El Hamman if needed against attacks from east.

Once 6th Australian Division has been defeated,the Italian XX motorized and XXI Corps,supported by German 39th Corps and Luftlande division should engage the 7th Australian division in the battle. While The Italians supported by German engineers and heavy artillery should attack from West and South. The German 39th Corps and Luftlande division should separate the 7th Australian and 4th Indian from each other and act in order to help Italian XX motorized and XXI Corps to destroy 7th Australian and so that German 41st Corps and 2nd Fallschirmjäger division should be able to destrtoy the 4th Indian division.

The JCAM´s Airforces should concentrate first on attacking the positions of 9th Australian division,then 7th armoured division switching to support the Airborne Operation of 1st Airborne Corps and after that overall protection of the groundforces and attacking targets depending on the situation.

Once all these goals have been fullfilled JCAM should move East to capture Egypt and continue its mission towards Arabian Oilfields.

DemonArchangel

05-14-2007, 19:24

Take our tanks, hit the gap between the 6th and 9th Australian Divisions in order to pin the rest of the 8th Army down at Alamein. Our tanks should take positions on Alem Halfa ridge in order to cut off the British retreat. We need to overrun the British as soon as possible so that we can dig in at Alamein.

By the way, I think the British are trying to deceive us. I've been keeping up with the number of divisions the British have. None of the East Africa Divisions, nor any of the fresh divisions shipped from Britain have been deployed yet, or have been seen deploying and the eastward bound truck columns make absolutely no sense, neither does Churchill's order, or the replacement of Wavell with a more aggressive commander. Besides, our intelligence isn't good enough to intercept British communiques.

I think what the British are trying to do, judging by those large number of tanks, is to launch a massive counterattack with fresh divisions. We need to take Alamein and refortify it against a British attack. We by no means have them on the run, so we have to move as quickly as possible to take Alamein, then find some way to defend against subsequent counterattack. If the British start bringing those tanks at the canal up, immediately pull back and prepare to launch a mobile defense against the British.

SwordsMaster

05-14-2007, 19:30

I have to agree with DA here. This whole reinforcement thing is weird. We should destroy them ASAP, and with any luck completely destroy a division or two. So as we attack, our bombers should be ready to hit retreating columns to slow them down and allow our tanks to catch up and inflict as many casualties as possible.

Kagemusha

05-14-2007, 19:48

I agree that the info of the large amount of tanks and the truck colums is wierd as the same time there is news about plans to evacuate. I would be very intrested to know how the Battle of Britain is going,when British keep just pumping more troops and equipment to Africa.

DemonArchangel

05-14-2007, 20:13

No, if there's going to be a counterattack, it's going to occur during the battle of El-Alamein. Right now, we need to attack aggressively, but if we can't overrun the 4 British divisions clustered around Alamein in due time, we need to get ready to go on the defensive.

Our critical mistake was not overrunning Alamein two weeks earlier, when the British fieldworks were still weak. I regret not originally advocating that position more strongly.

And quickly, we have to invade Crete, now that it's being sapped of defenders. When we set up airbases on Crete, we can deny the British troops naval support in large portions of North Africa.

Kagemusha

05-14-2007, 20:57

My opinion is that if we had attacked two weeks a go,we would have been slaughtered,with our tired forces against couple fresh divisions. I wouldnt go overestimating the enemys reinforcements. I think they have new reserves and equipment,but there is no way that they could have shipped new divisions in Egypt,without us knowing about it. I offered you guys a plan that aims on annihilation of the British army,by creating local majorities against the British forces,becouse they have decided to cover so much land that we can isolate and destroy them if we are rapid and act with determination and speed using all our tricks. Please comment or create alternative plans.

Lord Winter

05-15-2007, 02:13

I'd say strike 9th austriallia with the majority of what we have with small holding attacks to the north. From their we advance with the PD cuting the supply lines and encircling the british meeting up at Al Hammen. The ridges to the north will screen our advance and a line of infentry should be placed upon it with artillary and AT guns to pervent a counterattack from the north. Once this is done the British will either be forcd to try and break out against a prepared defensive position or Starve resulting in the virtual destruction of the 8th. After that we should ethier dig deep and wait for the counter attack or run the remenents to the Nile.

DemonArchangel

05-15-2007, 03:10

We don't have enough time. Just overrun the British as quickly as possible, even if it means heavy casualties for us.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 04:40

Kage, your plan has one problem. The FJ are still a far way from North Africa and even then an airborne assault would require complete air superiority and meticulous planning. We do not have the time or resources required for either of them.

About the British reinforcements, convoys etc.; Firstly the eastbound truck convoys propably have something to do with the British habit of constructing fall back positions, which we have encountered previously. My bet is that Cairo would be the fall back position if El Alamein would fall. As to the British divisions and their lack of numbers. We need to remember that atleast a couple of divisions are tied up in Crete and Syria, although given time they will start appearing in Egypt. As it is we need to concentrate on the divisions facing us and not the possible divisions on the horizon.

Now to the battle of El Alamein itself and how we need to approach it; the British disposition of forces is interesting, with four divisions around El Alamein and only one division in the south. This shows the fact that they have no intention of trying to stop our attack at the south and actually want us to take that approach. The real British defence line will assume a square like position once we've broken through in the south, with the square being formed by the Alamein Box, Deir el Shein, Ruweisat ridge and the Alam Halfa ridge. From here they will be in position to stop any attack to the north and any outflanking attempt risks the possibility of a British counterattack against our stretched front.

This is how I would assault the El Alamein position.

I would start by launching an assault in the Southern sector with the 39. Panzer Corps, Ariete and Trento against the 9th Australian division. Their main task at this phase is to bypass and isolate the British boxes, then assault Fort Kaponga and capture it. All available support should go to help these forces in achieving their objective.

In the North I would deploy Pavia and 41. Panzer Corps. Once the southern attack has managed to capture Fort Kaponga, they will launch an attack in the North against the 6th Australian Division with the objective being the capture of the Ruweisat Ridge. The 41. Panzer Corps will be main attacker, while Pavia will be tasked with protecting the northern-northwestern flank of the advancing Corps. Additionally the forces in the south will with available forces attack the Ruweisat Ridge from the south. The biggest threat here is the 7th Armoured, but I believe we should be able to hold them off.

Once we have gained control of Ruweisat Ridge we are in a good position to launch further attacks against the British position, like attacking the Alam Halfa ridge or assaulting the El Alamein box.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 05:03

Graphical support:

Phase 1:
https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9196/phase1mg1.th.jpg (https://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phase1mg1.jpg)

Phase 2:
https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7567/phase2hj6.th.jpg (https://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phase2hj6.jpg)

Initial Objectives:
https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4903/operationobjectivecz4.th.jpg (https://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=operationobjectivecz4.jpg)

Rodion Romanovich

05-15-2007, 08:32

@Aggony: I think your plan sounds like the best idea - isolation of the southern boxes, followed by taking the northernmost of the southern boxes, followed by an advance on the Ruweisat ridge with limited advance at the coast.

Additionally, as usual I would like to suggest that the tanks in the PDs to the north (as this part of the line is on defense at this point) are preserved behind the line in order to not lose stationary tanks to bombardment. If possible, as usual the air support should be moved to air fields further east, and FLAK moved up to the front continuously. I'd perhaps also suggest altering the plan somewhat by moving one of the divisions at the northern line to the initial southern advance on Fort Kaponga since it faces potential counter-attacks from 7th Armored, 9th Australian and elements from 6th Australian and 4th Indian. Once Fort Kaponga has fallen, the southernmost box can probably be left to be besieged after Fort Kaponga as the plan suggests, but if scouting reveals that, contrary to our current information, it is of divisional strength or more, I would suggest postponing the northern attack in order to strike that box first before attacking the Ruweisat ridge. Also I wish the artillery and air support to focus on the Fort Kaponga offensive, then the advance on the Ruweisat ridge of these forces. In the offensives, as before preserve the tanks for tasks that artillery and infantry can carry out better, but use German infantry instead of Italian for these tasks in order to avoid further conflicts. We should also be prepared that the Italian performance in this battle may be much lower than in previous battles - they're tired, unhappy and demoralized, and its their performance in previous battles that should be considered surprising, not a decrease in their performance now. They may very well be the point the British decide to strike in a counter-attack. We should therefore not rely on them to hold critical parts of the line, but have the PDs on high alterness to be sent in to counter-attack any British counter-attacks.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 10:01

Well the things is that by using tanks in support with infantry, we will suffer far less losses and achieve breakthroughs faster.

Rodion Romanovich

05-15-2007, 10:23

Yes, the preserving of tanks should be within reason, not exaggerated.

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 12:58

Duckie as far as im aware,the 1st airborne corps is at Naples.We can airlift the luftlande division to the front in matter of days. About the two Fallschirmjäger Divisions, i dont think our situation in air differs a bit from the situation that was historically when the assault on Crete started and in there the casulties before reaching the drop zones,were rather small. I must express that we would be dropping our forces on the rear of engaged enemy on area that is not heavily defended. Ofcourse there will be casulties,but with our concentrated air support on landings those wont be enermous.
I would also ask you guys,that if we have these three elite divisions at our use.Where else could we use them? I think that Duckies plan has merit.But im afraid that the results will be the same as in our earlier attacks. Once we engage the front Divisions,the reserves numbering 4th Indian and 7th armoured will come to support the withdrawal of the three first line divisions and fight a delay action untill those Divisions have again created a new defensive line East with the British reinforcements. Leaving us once again with little more land and lot more casulties. We can take all the land we want,but not without destroying the enemy first.
We simply wont get into our goals,if we allow the British to continue delaying us.Eventually it only means that the US troops will land behind us. Our only way to destroy the British army in Africa is to surround and destroy it,so the British will abandon Egypt and by that the Yanks will propably not land there either..

Franconicus

05-15-2007, 13:28

I would be very intrested to know how the Battle of Britain is going,when British keep just pumping more troops and equipment to Africa.

Battle of Britain and Battle of the Atlantic:

All major harbors have been bombed. The British have lost a big part of their transport capabilities. Industrial production has decreased by estimated 30%. The British are suffering from hunger. However, they haven't surrendered yet. Lately our bomber raids are less iffective. This has two reasons. First of all the targets are already damaged, second, the air defence has been improved.

The war in the Atlantic has been sucessful. However, in the beginning we had not enough boats. Lately, the limitations caused by the engagement of the US has decreased our success.

Due to the German engagement at Africa and Greece Churchill obviously realized that there was no immdiate threat of a German invasion of the islands. He focused on supporting the African Theatre. The British bomber invasion against the Reich has almost completly been stopped. Most bombers serve either in the battle against our submarines or have been transferred to Africa.

There are three airborne divisions at Naples. However, the transport squad is only capable to ship one division at a time.

I think you should dicuss how to use the air borne divisions!

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 13:34

I do not think the British morale will hold another withdrawal and even then they are running out of positions to fall back upon.

As to the FJ, they won't be useful for us at El Alamein due to the time needed to ship them, but they might come in handy during the eventual forced crossing of the Suez. Also if things go horribly wrong they would be a nice reinforcement as an infantry corps. So best maybe if we start shipping them over one by one, with maybe the 22. Luftlande crossing first.

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 13:34

Thanks Franc!:bow: It seems im the only one who wants to use those divisions. How long would it take to move a single division on the fighting area? I would airlift the luftlande division before the attack,then the first Fallschirmjäger Division first and the second after that. The first would cut the British railway and road connection on the coast and deploy on defence then i would deploy the second and once gathered start acting as i told in my plan.
Edit

Duckie.On what you base that assumption? Untill now the British have been succesfully fighting an delaying action against larger enemy. They are succesfully conducting an indepth defensive operation. And if we have to face the British in cities with their current forces that means that our forces in Africa has to be many times bigger, like Tobruk gave us a pale hint.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 13:45

Duckie.On what you base that assumption? Untill now the British have been succesfully fighting an delaying action against larger enemy. They are succesfully conducting an indepth defensive operation. And if we have to face the British in cities with their current forces that means that our forces in Africa has to be many times bigger, like Tobruk gave us a pale hint.

They will not have a position as strong as El Alamein anywhere else in Egypt. Additionally the El Alamein is considered to be a last stand of sorts. If we break the Eighth Army at El Alamein the British morale will plummet. Eventually they might recover, but we will be able to seize Egypt prior to it.

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 13:49

Couple places that first come to my mind are Alexandria and Cairo. In there they can turn this fight on urban fight,which will create lot of casulties.After that Suez Canal line,where they can defend behind a water crossing.

Rodion Romanovich

05-15-2007, 14:07

I agree we should start shipping the FJs over. If we're able to get 2 divisions here within reasonable time, we could drop the majority on the Alam Halfa ridge, and a small group of volunteers to sabotage railways near El Hammam, shortly after we begin the assault of the Ruweisat ridge. These two moves could while not cutting off the British retreat completely, allow us to break through more easily at El Alamein, and prevent the British from bringing their heavy equipment (FLAK, artillery guns) with them in their retreat.

Other usages will probably become apparent when we get further east. The Nile could be problematic to cross: suddenly there's a much longer line, still in open ground, making air support even more critical than before. The delta may provide difficult ground, Alexandria a difficult river crossing, and south of Alexandria there are plenty of British East African divisions that could come north and threaten our flank. Or line will grow in length as we have to both defend the southern flank, and fight British forces retreating further and further east past the Suez. If we won't use the FJs as infantry divisions we will probably need other infantry divisions to cover such a long line.

DemonArchangel

05-15-2007, 14:15

Alexandria and Cairo aren't really defensive chokepoints, after Alamein, our tanks will have freedom to maneuver in the Fayyum area, thus preventing any British counterattack from happening. And once we move our airfields past Alamein, we can wreck Alexandria's harbor, thus achieving one of our primary objectives.

And if they fight from the Suez Canal, they would have effectively lost control of the canal.

Since I still suspect the British counterattack is coming, we don't have any time to waste looking for the FSJ. We fight right now, with what we have.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 14:22

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 14:39

A paradrop against the Alam Halfa ridge would be suicidal. Remember that our men do not jump with their weapons and need time to be ready for battle after the jump. Even a paradrop at El Hammam is only feasible if we are close to a breakthrough at El Alamein, due to the fact that our FJ will not be jumping with water cannisters on their back. Dehydrated soldiers are not really battleworthy.

But that said the employment of airborne forces at El Alamein shouldn't really be a question at all. We will be attacking within the next couple of days. We can't afford to wait 3-4 weeks for the FJ divisions to arrive. The British are growing stronger with each passing day and the arrival of the FJ will not compensate for the increased British strength and the lost time.

Why should it take weeks to airlift the divisions from Naples? When we have airlift capacity to transport a full division at single lift? The weather is not that different from Crete and the German airforces there were capable of supplying the fallschirmjäger there in middle of the summer. Why not here?We have to remember that the deploy area would be at the coast. Though i agree that Alam Halfa is too much in middle of the fight.But if we can tie 7th armoured to battle before airborne assault on El Hamman like planned we can close the circle behind the British.

Edit

DA.How you will conquer large cities with Panzer divisions? Ever heard of Leningrad or Stalingrad? If the British will withdraw to Suez,commonwelth can still supply their troops from the red Sea. We have to destroy the British now or we will not win this campaign.

King Kurt

05-15-2007, 15:10

Can I back up a lot of what Kage is saying - Victory at El Alamein will be a big step - but there are plenty of reserves coming up to support the English, so a battle of attrition is a good one to grind down the good, experienced troops. We still haven't really faced the 7th Armoured yet as well. I also think there is a case for using the FJ - I'm not sure about airdropping them, but they are excellent infantry and could be brilliant assault troops for breaking the boxes.
Couple of points from Franc's war update - don't really believe the assesment of the impact on British industry - in the real WW2 the allied bomber offensive was never that efficient and its scale was far more than any that the 1940/41 Luftwaffe could mount with only 2 engined medium bombers - so I sense some Goring propoganda there. The more important fact was the British using their bombers for anti U-Boat patrols. The most dangerious threat to England during the war was the battle for the Atlantic - there was a strong case for diverting the 4 engined bombers from pointless night raids to anti U-Boat patrols, but Harris always stopped it. The use of the bombers in this role will mean a swift end to the battle of the Atlantic with an overwhelming victory for the English - and that means the release of massive naval resources to use else where and the easy access to europe of all the forces and material from the US. This all means we have to move quickly before things slip away.
As for my thoughts on the operational plan - grind through the boxes with infantry - possibly including some FJ - and artillery. Break through in the south with the armour after the infantry break the line down there. The armpor sweeps through with that big ridge to its left until they reach the coast road beyond the El Alamein pinch point. Perhaps due to time pressure, we should contemplate a para drop just behind their lines - but it would need fine timing and potentially could be a disaster - however, these are desparate times and perhaps now is time to take a risk.

AggonyDuck

05-15-2007, 15:48

Are you certain that Franc is talking about airlifting? I always assumed that he meant ship transport. Either way airlifting will not be a simple task due to the insufficient range of the Ju-52. We will have to refuel at Benghazi or Tobruk to actually have the necessary range to transport them to El Alamein. Even then we need to remember that a Ju-52 can carry 18 men, which means that we will need about 500 or more planes to airlift a division. Add to this the fact that they will have to refuel twice in North Africa during each airlift, so with three airlifted divisions the transport squadron will have to refuel five times in North Africa. I can imagine that hundreds of planes refueling five times in North Africa won't be good for our fuel supplies.

Franconicus

05-15-2007, 15:59

AD is right. We only have the planes to drop one division at a time; not even enough for that. Starting an airborne operation with several divisions from the bases in Italy is unrealistic. You need supply, equipment, ammo and water. I do not think that you want an ad-lib landing.

Besides that, the air corps at Greece offered to lay mines in the Channel - at your request. Any proposla for that?

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 16:25

Well if that is the case.The 1st Airborne Corps is out from the Operational theatre.So basicly we cant use them. This puts my plan into trash can. If they cant be airlifted from Naples we should start shipping them and their supplies to Africa Asap,since they cant do anything from Naples. This means that we cant start an effective attack now. How long would it take to ship them into Africa and ready for their use in the sense this kind of troops should be used in their traditional role as paratroopers?

Meantime i suggest we will use our artillery superiority and start shelling the defensive boxes of the first line divisions to confirmed targets. harass their supplies with light formations.Start making more roads towards their positions so our armour can concentrate more easily and start attacking the British air fields and planes on concentrated efforts. Refill completely the PD´s and other divisions so we are ready to attack when we actually have superior numbers.

Rodion Romanovich

05-15-2007, 18:09

I'll revert to the plan I suggested before I dicussed using the FJs. Seeing the map scale, I now realize the distance to the Alam Halfa ridge is too small. I got the impression the region fought over for several months with huge casualties IRL was a lot longer than it was ~:) The FJs will be very useful at the Suez and as normal but elite infantry divisions though, when they eventually arrive.

DemonArchangel

05-15-2007, 18:11

Kagemusha

05-15-2007, 18:58

Kage, have you LOST IT? You can't just drop into the desert without water, in the middle of an enemy, without anti-tank weapons! They'll get slaughtered!

We need to move and attack as soon as we possibly can. We've delayed too long as it is, no more waiting.

DA.please be so kind and read the post 967. Im not currently advocating any kind of attack. Im getting rather pessimistic about this campaign. We are now in the situation i talked about before we started this campaign. We have tons of idle troops,but we are fighting in area that cant support large extra troops,while our enemy easily brings more troops to the area. Also it seems that our shipping of supplies and vehicles isnt working like it should be if the British infact resuply their battle damaged divisions more quickly then we can. While our closest supplies are coming from Italy,theirs from India,US or Britain.

Lord Winter

05-16-2007, 03:09

I agree with DA here. The British have a large tank forces coming that will eaisly cause serious problems to us if the British are not routed by the time the tanks are brought up. What we need now is a breakthrough and it will not be cheap. This is the desicive momment of the battle if we win here the door lays open to egypt and further advance. Lose and face an counterattack which the historical equivalents drove Rommel back to Libya. I still support an massed attack to the south followed by an advance shielded by the Ridgeline into the enemys rear.

DA.How you will conquer large cities with Panzer divisions? Ever heard of Leningrad or Stalingrad? If the British will withdraw to Suez,commonwelth can still supply their troops from the red Sea. We have to destroy the British now or we will not win this campaign. You have to also rembember that Stalingard almost fell in the first couple days. If it wasn't for the Soviets pumping in reinfocements, Stalins one step back announcement and the Sheer determination and somewhat luck of the Russians. It would have been taken. Personly I can't see the British fighting to the death in these cities or having the manpower avalable to acctuly do it.

discovery1

05-16-2007, 03:23

Seems like once we get there it would be far easier to isolate Alexandria and Cario, rather then fight in them.

Edit: Well, we'd probably have to in the case of Alex's City, unless we get to the suez of course.

Franconicus

05-18-2007, 09:24

Chapter 61– “Blücher”
El Alamein, August 2nd – August 5th

Time flies and Ramcke feels that pressure is increasing. They have to reach the Channel and occupy Egypt until end of August. Or the campaign will be a failure.

Five British divisions block the way at El Alamein, but two of them are already crippled. Although there are fortifications, the El Alamein is not a defensive wall like the ring around Tobruk. Ramcke knows that he has to break it and he has to break it soon. Time is really not on his side. Any mistake can end up in a disaster.

Well, the German and Italian forces are stronger than ever. Four German and one Italian tank division and three infantry divisions give the axis a superiority of 2 to 1.The power of a German commander in Africa has never been so big.
Ramcke contacts Student and urges him to hurry. Student tells him that he will start the transfer to Africa immediately. Benghazi seems to be an appropriate base. However, an airborne operation needs lot equipment and therefore it will take another two weeks to ship it.

Ramcke shakes his head. This is too late. The British position has to be crushed immediately. The Fallschirmjäger will be good for the occupation of Egypt, maybe even against target at the Middle East. They have proven that they can support mobile warfare very effectively – if they get support of the ground forces in time!

The plan for the next operation is done very rapidly. Although Ramcke is not an experienced strategist, the situation is clear. There are a couple of fortified points. The Germans have to break through and take at least one of them. The southern defense seems to be much weaker.

Ramcke decides to use the 39. Corps for the main strike. Although the 3. and 4. Panzerdivision have only half of their nominal combat strength, they have 160 tanks. This will be enough, especially as the British tanks are far north. It is time that the 39. Corps gets some experience in the desert warfare.
The 41. Corps, the strongest tanks force with about 320 tanks, is placed in the northern sector. They will be supported by Pavia. It is good to have a fresh infantry division there, in case that it will be necessary to assault the El Alamein box. Between the two German corps there will be Ariete and Trento. They will isolate and assault Kaponga box. This is the main goal for the first phase. Taking this box will open a gap in the British front.

Ramcke decides to call the new operation “Blücher”. This famous Prussian general would have liked the plan. The operation will be aggressive like the old day cavalry operations. Ramcke sends his orders. The operation will start on August 4th.

In the evening of August 3rd the Axis’ formations advance into their staring position. At three o’clock in the morning, artillery opens fire on the Kaponga Box, while the German and Italian divisions approach the defense lines on both sides of the box.

After a short combat Schmidt’s 39. Corps breaks through the Australian lines. In the morning hours it reaches Gebel Kalakh. Here, 4. PD turns south to isolate Naqh Abu Box, while Model’s 3. turns northeast to cut off Kaponga Box.
Around noon there are first difficulties. Ariete still sticks in the defense lines, being peppered by artillery from three sides. 3. PD hits an Australian antitank regiment supported by artillery at Deir Alinda.

The German and Italian air forces give close support. Kaponga and Naqh Abu Boxes are the focuses of the raids. Additionally, ground attack planes attack the Australian batteries. In reply, the British bomb the advanced units of the 3. PD.

About 3:00 p.m. 3. PD successfully outmaneuvers her opponent. The antitank regiment is defeated and the German tanks break into the positions of the Australian artillery. Ariete is still not gaining ground. Ramcke asks the air force and artillery to give full support in this sector. At 5:30 the Australians have to give ground and Ariete advances north of Kaponga. At the same time Ramcke receives news from an air patrol. It reports that a big column of tanks is at Deir Um Aisha, moving to Deir Alinda. Model immediately decides to stop his advance and to gather his units for a defensive battle. At 17:00 the British tanks attack. At first there is a pack of about 40, mainly cruiser tanks. Model welcomes them with concentric fire of artillery and antitank guns. After a short combat, the British retreat.

At 18:45 they return, this time in bigger strength. The British deploy more than 200 tanks supported by infantry. The Royal desert air force interferes in this battle.

Model’s tanks are outnumbered by 1:3. Model decides to withdraw them behind a belt of infantry and ATGs. However, several tanks are hit by attacking planes. The British are loosing a number of tanks as they approach the German. However, there are too many to stop. When some British tanks bypass the German flank, the front collapses. Now Model is forced to make his tanks attack. In the duel tank versus tank the Germans have superior speed and maneuverability, while the British have superior numbers. When night falls, the battle is in a draw. Both sides withdraw to regroup and to prepare for the next day.

During night Ramcke adjusts his plans and sends out new orders. He orders the mobile parts of Ariete and the 4. Panzerdivision to close up with Model. Trento has to encircle Kaponga Box while the immobile part of the 4. PD rests at the gates of Naqh Abu to block this box.

At the first light of day, the battle continues. The British are determined to stop the Germans and to destroy their tanks. They have received more tanks, more artillery and more ATGs. Model has to stand attacks from the 7. Armored and 9. Australian Division. He is slowly loosing ground. Ariete approaches from northwest. However, as it approaches, it is attacked by another tank pack. Although the British have the minor number, they have a tactical advantage and the British tanks prove their superiority against the Italians once again. After two hour the Italian commander has to break up the battle.

The Panzerregiment of the 4. Panzerdivision arrives just in time. Being confronted with another tank force, the British decide to break up the battle. Model decides not to follow. He has to reorganize his crippled division and to care about the wounded ones. Then he decides to march to the position of Ariete. At 15:15 the German and Italian tank units meet and Kaponga is completely cut off.

In the evening Ramcke receives the news that the garrison of Naqh Abu has sallied. The 4. PD could not stop them. However, the box is now under control.

During night, artillery keeps on softening the Kaponga box. During the next day, the third of operation ‘Blücher’, Trento assaults the box. In the late afternoon the garrison surrenders.

Ramcke resumes the situation. All objectives have been reached, two boxes have been occupied and the complete southern flank is defeated. The British 7. Armored Division and the Australian 9. have suffered severe casualties and are retreating towards the coast. They have lost more than 100 tanks. 7. Armored may still have about 200 tanks. The northern sector is still quiet.
Ariete and 3. Panzerdivisions have had bad casualties. Ariete has 40 tanks left, Model has 24. They are no longer a major factor in this fight. 3. Panzerdivision has still about 60 tanks and is following the British units.
The results from the first phase of the operation are very promising. The next strike has to break the British resistance. There are basically three options:

A1) Make the southern wing advance northwards, across Ruweisat to the coast.
A2) Order the northern wing to bypass El Alamein and march eastwards.
A3) Combine the two options.

News arrives while Ramcke is still thinking about this decision.
There is a report from the navy. Several British submarines are operating in the waters near Tobruk. Yesterday, a tanker was hit by a torpedo. The shipping of the airborne corps with all its equipment has been started and will be finished mid-August. Transport capability is critical. The responsible officers says that there will be problems to supply the Panzergruppe and the air borne corps.

There is a report from a long distance air patrol Ramcke had sent to recon the Suez Channel. It reports that the port of Suez is overcrowded with ships. It seems like the British are unloading loads of troops there. Additionally the crew reports of long columns marching from Suez to Cairo. The total strength is hard to estimate, but there are at least several divisions.

There is also an encoded report from Berlin. The political situation is growing more acute. The French defeat in Syria is complete. As a reaction of this, the Iraqi government calls on the British to retreat all troops from Iraq. The Iraqi ambassador asked Ribbentrop for support in case that the situation escalates.
There is also a new crisis rising at the Bosporus. The Soviet government issued an ultimatum to the Turkish government. It demands free entry through the Bosporus, military bases at both sides of the strait as well as along the Turkish Black Sea Coast. The ultimatum will expire after 10 days.
The Turkish foreign minister asked Germany for support. He wants to have some kind of guarantee declaration. Ribbentrop contacted Molotov. The Russian minister declared that the Soviet Union sees Turkey as part of the Soviet Sphere of Interest. It also sees Turkey as a compensation for the German influence on Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece.
Military intelligence reports of Soviet troop concentrations at the borders of Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Iran. The border to Germany is quiet, besides the continuing works on the Soviet defense walls.
How do you want Ramcke to react?
B1) Order a massive air strike against Suez. There is a very tempting target. However, the planes will not be able to support Operation “Blücher”.
B2) Give all support to our ground operation.
C) What are your recommendations regarding the political situation?

King Kurt

05-18-2007, 12:45

I'm not sure what Ramke is happy about - things look a bit grim. According to the figures there is about parity in tank numbers - equipment wise they are about equal with the german having an advantage in training, tactics and leadership. Even if we do break through there will not be the numbers to push on to Cario. The attack was mean't to break through with infantry and artillery, but instead our tanks have been frittered away protecting the infantry attack. What's more, it sounds like there are more tanks on the way with the reinforcements landing in Suez.

On to options - first up a3 - we need to do both - breakthrough is critical and by imposing pressure all over we spread the English defence.

Airforce - support the offensive. Our local airforce is not well suited for a big raid - range, type of aircraft etc and the breakthrough is critical - no point in damaging the reserves who we will face if we break through if we do not break through in the first place.

Political - need to buy some time - why not let the Soviets have Turkey? - it will bog them down in a long slog as I can't see the Turks rolling over and we could have them in a large pincer movement with our forces in the balkans to the north and the africa corps coming up from the south. We need to keep them out of Romania but, in the short term, other areas are not a problem. Also Russian aggression against Turkey will deflect diplomatic pressure off us.

Franconicus

05-18-2007, 13:26

[QUOTE=King Kurt]I'm not sure what Ramke is happy about - things look a bit grim. According to the figures there is about parity in tank numbers - [QUOTE]

Not true. The British have about 200 tanks left. Our southern corps has 124, the northern one has 320 tanks. So in total it is 200 vs. 444.

The 41. Corps hasn't entered combat. It is fresh and could expoit any break through.

Casualties of the 39. Corps haven't happened during break through operation, but afterwards during the tank battle against the 7. Armored. And do not forget that neiter 39. Corps nor Ariete had full strength at the beginning.

In summary: The Germans deployed only one third of their tank force. Yet they have managed to break through, roll up the southern flank and repel the counterstrike of the British tank reserves.

Kagemusha

05-18-2007, 14:26

For God´s sake.Where do the British keep pumping these troops? The result in this attack was just i suspected.We gained few yards of desert and lost again lots of our troops,while our supply is just getting worse. If there are several divisions embarking at Suez,what is the point to continue the attack when we dont have the needed 1/3 advance for attack even now?
And how each time the British can break out from surroundments? We are in desert,so how they sneak up?

Franconicus

05-18-2007, 14:37

And how each time the British can break out from surroundments? We are in desert,so how they sneak up?
Kaponga Box surrendered. The garrison of Naqh Abu sallied due to the fact that the besieging troops were very thin. They escaped propably into Quattara Depression. Our fast troops could not follow. Anyway, these soldiers are out of the battle.

You are right, you haven't reached the Channel, but the operation just started 3 days ago!

Kagemusha

05-18-2007, 14:48

Kaponga Box surrendered. The garrison of Naqh Abu sallied due to the fact that the besieging troops were very thin. They escaped propably into Quattara Depression. Our fast troops could not follow. Anyway, these soldiers are out of the battle.

You are right, you haven't reached the Channel, but the operation just started 3 days ago!

Yes and there is already few Divisions coming from Suez to meet us. I think that soon we will be also at war with Soviet Union. If we cant support more troops in Africa,the political situation gives us a shot for my original plan. Lets contact Turkey and promise them in exchance for treaty to move our troops through their country,we will back them up on their crisis with Soviet Union. There is no one else that can help them at this point,so it shouldnt be too hard to get the treaty. Then we can move an army to Turkish Syrian border or even straight to Iraq and Brits cant do a thing about it.I think that now would be a good time to take a defensive stance in Africa and let British bang their heads against our troops. Once we have deployed other army through Turkey,they will collapse on both fronts.

Rodion Romanovich

05-18-2007, 18:39

Good that we broke the south, but one thing in the previous battle was far from good: that our tanks were slower to react and manouver than the British, making the British able to achieve massive local superiority despite being heavily outnumbered along the entire front. The Luftwaffe also seems to have been unable to support the ground operations - despire an excellent chance to inflict heavy losses on the 200 tanks strong spearhead the British sent against us similar to how the RAF shot almost all our tanks to pieces at Mersa Matruh, they seem to have given almost no help at all to our ground forces. Instead, the RAF seems to have won the day again. We're also running out of supplies due to problems in the Mediterranean.

We have only two options now: either wait a week while using our air superiority until we get a more decent supply situation for an offensive, or we put everything on one card, assaulting with everything we've got and facing either total defeat or victory.

I think that given the current information, we are capable of an offensive already at this time. We have extreme superiority in all equipment - artillery, tanks, aircraft. Only logistics can prevent us from victory. With our current advantage, we should be able to break the British lines by concentrated bombardments followed by lighting strikes, with artillery covering the area beyond the attacking spearhead as they advance. The air force must support the ground offensives, if we now choose the option of an offensive immediately.

I choose:
A3 - we have massive advantage in numbers and will be the ones to benefit from drawing out their line longer. The southern attack should be less aggressive, and the northern should take the main responsibility for breakthrough, since the southern is short on tanks. Reorganize the southern tank forces so they can defend against a new British counter-attack with a 200 tanks spearhead. The Luftwaffe should also be ready to launch attacks on British tank spearheads. The Luftwaffe should have as main priority to support any part of our line that gets attacked by British tanks, no matter whether it's the southern or northern group. During times when no tanks attack, they should support the offensive. Task the rear-echelon troops in our southern group to build up thick minefields and good defenses with several fall-back positions behind our advancing troops to the south. The southern line will be the point the British will try to break if they launch a counter-offensive with their arriving reinforcements.

B2 - no doubt we must support the ground troops if we're going on the offensive

C - do nothing at the moment. Better to strike the Soviets after they've overextended and drawn Turkey into the war on our side.

SwordsMaster

05-18-2007, 18:58

How about a before and after map? Also if possible it would be nice to see where the british reinforcements are coming from...

discovery1

05-18-2007, 19:42

A3

B2

C- Try to make it look like we want to help the turks, but have us 'fail'.

Are there any plans to stir up nationalist sentiment in Egypt?

Lord Winter

05-19-2007, 00:19

I don't get what was so bad about the battle. Personly I'm relived that it didn't turn into the WWI slugging match which I was anticipating. Now with our massive suppority lets strike into the rear of 8th army and encircle the divisions facing us. We have more then enough divisions to manage this and fend off any possible counterattacks from the fresh divisions arrive. If we do annihilate the force in front of us the British will never be able to replace the manpower loss and the war will come within reach of an end.

About turkey, we can not support any attack currently with the soveits until we knock Britten out of the war. Let's wait for them to get bogged down in Turkey and then if hittler still wants Barrbossa, attack them early in the spring with a dash towards Moscow.

So in conclusion:

A: 3 (encirclement! :charge:)
B: 2 durring the operation 1. after we have encircled them if we have the chance.
C: Avoid war with the soviets like the plague.

DemonArchangel

05-19-2007, 02:14

Don't bother bombing the Suez, go A3.

Give the Soviets Turkey.... I have a feeling the Soviets will have a great deal of trouble in Turkey.

Rodion Romanovich

05-19-2007, 19:07

Seems like we're mostly in agreement about 1 and 2. Any suggestions for plan? I personally think the primary thrust should be at the small box south of El Alamein and south of it - this should be the task of the northern force. This thrust would cover the southern force in its advance to gain a foothold on the western part of Ruweisat ridge. When we have a foothold on the ridge we can start going eastward along it and begin encirclement. The southernmost forces of the northern group should join this advance, since we have most our tanks at the northern flank even though it's to the south where the secondary thrust and encirclement operation will happen. Now is the time to insert the tanks more aggressively, IMO.

SwordsMaster

05-19-2007, 19:14

We must also remember to reinforce our positions to face british reserves. AT guns and tank bombers to the front. Luftwaffe's priority is to hit the columns of reinforcements on the roads. Specially their armour.

Let's keep a positive tank balance.

Cataphract_Of_The_City

05-20-2007, 04:03

I dont believe all those reinforcements can be effective. They are in marching order and probably without all of their equipment. When the breakthrough is completed and the British withdraw, the combination of the confusion created by the withdrawing troops and the German armor will be enough to throw them in the retreat or make it a bloodbath for the British.

Franconicus

05-21-2007, 10:36

Chapter 62 – Victory
El Alamein, August 6th – August 7th

Ramcke makes up its mind. This is the critical moment of the battle, the point of no return. He will focus all resources in the destruction of the British forces gathered around El Alamein. On August 6th the battle goes on. 41. Corps, now led by Hoth himself, enters the battle together with the division Pavia. Artillery and air force start a massive bombardment of the little village that is destroyed within an hour. Then 15. PD breaks through between El Alamein and Deir El Shein. The British line is overrun easily. Only Shir El Shein gives some flanking fire. Ramcke directs the artillery fire on this box.

At 10 o’clock black smoke marks the position of the British supply stocks. Obviously the British are preparing another retreat.

In the south the situation is more difficult. Ruweisat is a natural barrier and the British 7. Armored and the Australian 9. Division have a solid defence line here. Furthermore, the forces of the Corps are already exhausted. Therefore, Schmidt hesitates to attack. However, at 11:00 Model finds a hole in the British defence. He bypasses the Ridge from the east and reaches Gebel Bein Gabir. Now he is almost in the rear of the British forces, but there is also the threat that he may be cut off and attacked by superior tank forces, again. He decides to keep on pushing forward, hoping that the Britsih will not react fast enough. Schmidts decides to reinforce him with the 4. PD.

Around noon the British forces try to retreat, but this time the advantage is on the side of the Axis. Trento assaults Deir El Shein while Pavia enters El Alamein. Ariete assaults the Ruweisat. She captures the 8th (King’s Royal Irish) Hussars, that had been completely running out of fuel.

At El Imayid the 3. PD fights against the columns of the retreating British. It captures the complete artillery of the 7th Armored. Although the 4. PD comes to support the 3., the German tank forces are not sufficient to close the gap completely. The 2nd Royal Tank Regiment and 7th Queen's Own Hussars bail out, only hindered by the air force.

In the late afternoon the Germans reach the coast near El Imayid. Now the complete Australian 7. as well as parts of the Australian 9. are trapped. The advance of the 15. and 21. PD breaks the last resistance. In the evening Ramcke receives the report. The Germans and their allies captured more than 20,000 soldiers of the commonwealth. The Australian 7. and 9. Division are gone as well as the 7. Armoured Division. Only about 40 tanks could escape. They are retreating eastwards, together with the rests of the 4. Indian and 6. Australian. 15. and 21. Panzerdivision started the pursuit, only slowed down by the fuel supply.

The German casualties have been quite low, but Model’s division has only 12 tanks left, Thoma has 40 and Ariete has 38 tanks. 41. Corp has still more than 300 tanks.

Radio Intelligence reports that the British concentrate 4 divisions around Cairo. Intelligence also reports that the British battleships left the harbour of Alexandria and are in the Red Sea now.

An Italian sank a ship from a convoy from Crete. The captain reports that the sea was filled with people. Obviously the British are transferring troops from Crete to Alexandria.

Ramcke sends the news to Berlin. In return he receives mails from Hitler and Keitel. Hitler congratulates him and tells him to finish the British in Africa. Keitel tells him, that the supreme command stated that it is impossible to give Turkey enough support to stand a Soviet invasion. The Führer himself thinks that the Soviet occupation of the straits will only lead to an Anglo-Soviet confrontation. Hitler told the supreme command to prepare the invasion of Russia for March 1942.

There are reports about fighting in Iraq. However, this information is very vague.
The German army at Greece prepares the invasion of Greece. It is going to start within the next two weeks. The German command asks Ramcke for transport planes to support the supply of the invasion troops.
Campaign:
A1) Order the 41. Corps to assault Alexandria!
A2) Order the 41. Corps to advance to Cairo!
A3) Order all troops to stop and prepare defence!
Supply:
The supply capacity is overstressed. Please decide about priorities:
B1) Send reinforcements to the 3. and 4. Tank division
B2) Send reinforcements to the Italian Divisions
B3) Send the airborne divisions
Transport planes:
C1) Assist the invasion of Crete
C2) Advice to do the invasion without the transport squad
C3) Advice to cancel the invasion

DemonArchangel

05-21-2007, 15:39

SwordsMaster

05-21-2007, 16:08

We already invaded Greece. Do you mean Crete?

Gas up, then move to Alexandria. (A1)

B1, let's get the supply to the Panzers so they can cut off Alexandria first and move onto the Fayyum.

C2, Crete doesn't need the transport planes, the Italian navy has a much freer hand once the British are forced to evacuate Alexandria.

Agree. However: Cairo might be a pain in the ass, since 4 divs is a considerable force, and we'll have our back exposed as we turn to Alexandria.

I think we need better recon, and tell our planes to disrupt the shipping in Alexandria harbour. Those soldiers from Crete should stay in Crete or at the bottom of the Med.

Rodion Romanovich

05-21-2007, 19:56

Excellent chapter! Looks like I underestimated the capabilities of our tanks, but perhaps it was perhaps also our careful preservation of them that allowed such a breakthrough at El Alamein in the end.

There are 4 main problems that could arise in the coming advance:
1. the British have divisions in East Africa, in Crete, and in Syria. All these could meet up with the existing divisions at the Nile, or perhaps they already have. The total force would then be maybe 5 divisions, or at worst (though unlikely) as much as 7. Add retreating forces from Greece and/or Crete, and they could get maybe 8-10
2. Our reconnaissance ahead is not very good yet
3. Our supply is still be in trouble, and we still don't have the FJs
4. The ground ahead is easier to conquer, but that also means it's more difficult to hold. When we launch our offensive on the Nile, we must be able to continue it until we've captured at least some of the Nile crossings and some other more easily defended ground. We will also need considerable amounts of fuel for the tanks.

Campaign:
I may change this after some discussion and more info on the status of our troops, airfields etc.
A3) Order all troops to stop and prepare defence!
We must again move our airfields along with the advance. Airfields as far east as possible must be made operational. We also need to send reconnaissance missions to see what lies ahead of us. Especially the southern flank, Alexandria and Cairo should be investigated. Also, what is the current state of to 41th Corps? Which divisions are currently part of it, and how many percent of their nominal strength do they have? Finally, we need to get better supply again. The coming advance will rely heavily on tanks and aircraft, more so than before. Therefore, we must have enough fuel. While we're waiting for these things, we should also send a bombing mission to damage Alexandria harbor heavily if possible.

When we're ready, the best way to handle the upcoming advance against the Nile would be to keep a small defending infantry-based force to hold the El Alamein chokepoint to secure our rear against British divisions from the south. The majority of the forces would in the meantime focus on capturing first Alexandria, then Cairo. The heavy defenses at the El Alamein chokepoint will make British strikes to our flank and rear unable to achieve any notable gains without high casualties, and with them being delayed enough for us to prepare a adequate response.

Supply:
B2) Send reinforcements to the Italian Divisions
They need to get back to full strength and get their currently quite low morale improved again. Second priority should be tanks (B1) for the German PDs in order to replace their losses. Tanks will be crucial in the coming offensives, however our current advantage in tanks is more than enough for a while ahead and we need the Italians back to full strength more than we need tanks at the moment.

Transport planes:
C3) Advice to cancel the invasion
Crete has almost no stratetic value at all, especially not if we capture the Suez first. If the British lose at Alexandria and in Greece, they will abandon Crete and the island can be occupied for free without the massive casualties we would get from conquering it. Moreover, if we direct our resources to victory in North Africa first, we will more or less trap most of the British forces in Greece. Their extraction from Greece would become immensely costly, or even impossible, since they would need to go back and forth several times and do so through waters that our aircraft can reach.