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Franconicus
06-28-2006, 08:32
Well, there is a break in the championship and Kraxis is back - so why not starting a new interactive today?

The rules are simple. You are a German officer. The story starts in 1940. You will first get an introduction into the situation, then a mission. The mission will change during the campaign, but only slightly due to the different boundaries.

You are not a mighty leader. Therefore it is not enough to have brilliant ideas, you must convince your leaders.

What is new is that you do not only have to choose between several options, you can make your own proposals and you will have to gather informations along the way. You will need them later!

The scenario may look easy. In fact I think there is only a very small window to success. Do not miss it!

So enjoy the game!:2thumbsup:



Chapter 1 - Triumph

Fort Eben-Emael; June 14th, 1940

The warm spring sun sends its beams to Fort Eben-Emael. It illuminates a surprisingly peaceful scene. A young lieutenant leads a group of generals through the main entrance of the fortress. He is going to show them the turrets and tell them that this was the world’s biggest and strongest fortress; He has been giving explanations about the different parts and their functions for almost two weeks now and the run on the fortress does not decrease.

Aside stands an officer with the insignia of an Oberstleutnant of the Wehrmacht. His name is Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke. He is 50 years old. He climbs on Cupola 120 and enjoys the warmth of the sun and the beauty of the spring day as he is looking at the arrangement of the fortress.

He does not need a guide. He knows the fortress inside out.

Ramcke has had a long and changeful career. In 1905 he entered the Imperial Navy as a ship boy. He was on duty on several ships before the Navy sent him to the Marines. He fought at the fields of Flanders, where he repelled six British assaults at a single day. At the end of the war he was highly decorated and joined the Free Corps ‘von Brandis’. In 1919 he finally joined the new Reichswehr, now as captain of the army infantry.

Two years ago he first met Kurt Student. From their first meeting he was fascinated of this man and his ideas. Since then Ramcke has tried to become a member of the Fallschirmjäger. Well, during the last weeks he has passed most of the training courses of the Fallschirmjäger and now he hopes to get the transfer order to the Luftwaffe soon.

Small elite formations do special airborne operations. This idea is the consequence of the assault tactic of WW1, and yet, it is more, it is revolutionary. Since the first encounter Ramcke and Student have met regularly and discussed technical and tactical issues of the new arm. And Eben-Emael. In his mind Ramcke has been inside the fortress many times before and he has simulated the German attack over and over. Recon planes had seen the garrison playing football on the roof. The Germans concluded that there were no mines there. At the first light of day 10 gliders touched down at the roof of the fortress. They came out of nowhere and the garrison did not even know they were there. They carried 85 soldiers of the 1. Fallschirmjägerdivision, 85 men equipped with novel hollow charge bombs. 20 Minutes later they had razed the turrets and the armored observation stands with loopholes. The fortress was blinded. The commander of the fortress had no idea what was going on. He could not explain how the Germans were able to destroy his turrets so easily. However, he knew that he was lost if he could not get rid of these Germans on the roof. While the Germans started to bomb their way into the fortress the garrison sallied. Before they reached the plateau the fire of German planes and infantry stopped them. The garrison had to accept its fate. They surrendered. The Germans occupied the fortress with only six casualties, 1200 Belgian soldiers surrendered.

Ramcke looks at the hole at Cupola 120. It is one thing to make a plan and to devise a new, revolutionary scheme. But it is a different thing to stand on this turret and see how the scheme became true.

The operation showed that small elite groups with innovative technology and tactics could beat enemies with superior numbers and material. Next time, he hopes, he will take part of the operation.

Ramcke reflects the events that happened since then. The German troops invaded the Netherlands and Belgium. They broke through the Ardennes and cut off the French and English troops. The English had to leave the mainland. The Germans continued the invasion of France. Everywhere the Germans were successful. The advance was fast and unstoppable. German planes controlled the skies and German tank advanced in the rear of the enemy. What a difference to Ramcke’s own experience of World War 1? How hard had they tried to break through, to reach their goal: Paris. How often did they stop the English assaults at Flanders? All in vane.

In meantime there are three more groups of visitors. Ramcke decides to leave and to drop over the town commander’s office. There he hears the news: the 87. Infantriedivision occupied Paris. Incredible! Paris, the target of so many operations in the Great War! Paris, the capitol of France! That stands for the defeat of the French army. That stands for the end of the war! Soldiers are jubilating. War is over. France is defeated.

Spontaneously Ramcke decides to take a trip to Paris. He has some free time and he has to see Paris with his own eyes. He sends a telegram to Student and then orders his chauffeur to drive to Paris.

The road to Paris is filled with German troops. At some places it is damaged but in general the traffic flows slowly but steady. They pass long columns of German infantry. The soldiers look tired and weary, but everyone is cheering. Sometimes they pass the wrecks of bombed convoys.

They advance slowly and Ramcke has enough time to think about the situation. The news excited him. A German division marches in Paris! Incredible! All the nightmares of the past months fall apart. He is looking back on the situation last September, when France and England had declared war against Germany. It was like a deja vue, a nightmare, being trapped between superior armies. How could Germany dare to challenge France, the nation with the strongest army and Britain, the biggest sea power on earth? The military was sure that they would loose the war. They all blamed Hitler for his foolish gambling that led the nation into this awful situation. Well, Ramcke is not a follower of Hitler. However, now he has to admit that the military was wrong and Hitler was right. France might have had the strongest army; however they did not have the spirit to fight. And the English? All its sea power did not prevent the disaster. Now they will have to accept Germany’s new position.

How could this happen? It is true; the French army was strong and so is the British sea power. However, what the general staff did not see was the fact that the French nation was not ready to fight. They could have defeated the Germans in 1939, but they did not. They hesitated. Their military doctrine was defensive, immobile. Hitler knew that. He did the right assessment of the French and British. While the generals saw the superior numbers Hitler had more information and he came to the right conclusions: Germany could defeat the allies if it attacks them as soon as possible.

The English will have to accept a ceasefire. If not, … In this case the Germans will land on the islands. The Fallschirmjäger will play an important role and this time Ramcke will take part. The invasion of the British islands will be challenging and they will have to get heavy arms to the Fallschirmjäger as soon as possible. Ramcke has discussed this issue with Student before. Maybe it is time now to think about these issues again.

Task for today: Get all information about the German airborne units in 1940; their strength, their training, their equipment, their tactics, their planes, their strengths and weaknesses.

Peasant Phill
06-28-2006, 09:27
great that it starts in Eben-Emael.

I find the use of the 'hollow charge' in Eben-Emael very interesting if we're planning on attacking other fortified sites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge

King Kurt
06-28-2006, 14:41
Well a quick glance around the web about the German Airbourne suggests the following - in 1940 it was still a small force - being built up for its moment of fame and Phyric victory in Crete. I think the real weakness was in the JU52 fleet and the gliders. The Ju52s were very prone to being shot down and the losses they suffered in the Crete campaign were horrendious causing a transport plane shortage in the subsequent russian campaign. There was a similar story for the Gliders. About 500 JU52s were used for Crete and 271 were casualties. So the airbourne is preety much a one shot weapon if they are to be used on any scale - and if there is even a hint of not having air superiority then there will be massive casualties and a good chance the operation will fail.
For info see:
http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_1st_Fallschirmj%C3%A4ger_Division
So, if we are to use them, we must exercise caution and use them in a true coup de main way. We also need to find a way of reienforcing any operation quickly - which could well mean some form of naval support forces.:2thumbsup:

IrishArmenian
06-28-2006, 21:42
In order to get the easily-shot down transport planes to Britain, we must plan a diversion. The Falshrim-what's-it-called cannot fight in the air, meaning we must plan a diversion to avert the Britts attention. Know I suggest using Navy ships for the diversion, but send a few U-Boats to escort them, to put up a good fight, but I digress. I notice that the Paratroopers are incredibly delicate in the air, so I would have to request some serios fighter escort. Is there such a way to disguise a paratrooping plane as a bomber? It would fool the English well. Of course, the farthest the Germans can go with this is England and Wales. They are not trained for the terrain of Scotland (which the locals are) and not as much, but the same thing with Ireland, but also the Irish are not situated mostly in cities, so Your troops will grow weary of marching everywhere and these cultures were built upon Gureilla Warfare, so tough enemies. But I would also like to say your ideas there are a little vague.

Keba
06-28-2006, 22:42
Is there such a way to disguise a paratrooping plane as a bomber? It would fool the English well.

Well, tranport models were nearly identical to early bombers. Unfortunately, those models have mostly been put out of commision with the advent of the more advanced German bombers (the older models were phased out during the Spanish Civil War).

My belief is that Paratroopers are best used like they were by the Allies later in the war. To disrupt enemy activity, in preparation for an incursion. Britain is in a bad spot in the beginning stages of the war ... her only safety is the navy, however, once German troops are on the island, it is unlikely they will be able to do much. The main problem would be supply, however, it could be disguised as a part of the Air War ... namely, some bombers drop supplies while others bomb the hell out of the British airbases.

The main problem is convincing German High Command of the plan. Goring might object, prefering a scare bombardment tactic (which he did use, and which failed). Hitler might be more open, if the plan is properly presented as bold and likely to add Britain to the Reich ... we might have a chance. Other commanders are more likely to see the advantages.

JimBob
06-28-2006, 23:32
Who says we're putting Paratroopers down in England? Today we are figuring out what we are capable of.

What we have is a division sized group of elite and highly motivated soldiers who have proven themselves. I'm with Kurt, the weakest part of the airborne is the transport. If the opportunity arrises we should push for better transport aricraft,the Ju-52 began service in 1932, it's outdated. Our troops are trained to fight as a group and are among the best in the German Army.

The weapons are standards of the German Army. The only weapon that was unique to the Fallschirmjager was the FJ42 which only saw limited production, it was a light machine gun comparable to the BAR. Not as heavy as an MG34 or MG42, but capable of delivering signifigant fire power. This is also a must. A 9lbs gun is better than a 24lbs gun when moving about behind enemy lines. Something similar to the FJ42 should be lobbied for as early as possible.


http://www.greendevils.com/greendevils/fjwwii.htm
http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/

Lord Winter
06-29-2006, 01:25
An standalone jump into Britten is out of the question. The RAF would destroy most of our force in progress and radar would make it impossible for us to land unprotected. The best we could do is play a supporting role such as the allied paratroopers did at D-Day. We would probably serve the best in a land campaign were we could raid the allied supply lines.

AggonyDuck
06-29-2006, 08:30
Well personally I hope we get to make a jump on Malta. ~:)

About the transport planes. There really isn't much we can do to improve the situation at the moment, especially when you consider the fact that Ramcke is only a lieutenant colonel. I don't think we have anything to replace them with anyways. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our gliders though, so I'd prolly recommend that we make good use of them.

A bigger problem is the fact that german paratroopers didn't jump with their weapons strapped to them, but had most of their weapons dropped in containers. This means that we'll have problems if there's enemies around at the dropzone.

Overall the German paratroop doctrine seems to build around dropping a force of paratroopers on an airfield and then flying in reinforcements and supply with transport aircraft.

I don't think we have to worry about jumping on the British Isles, because somehow I don't see a Seelöwe having any chances of success.

Keba
06-29-2006, 09:05
I don't think we have to worry about jumping on the British Isles, because somehow I don't see a Seelöwe having any chances of success.

This is going to concentrate on the Mediterranean theatre ... which means that Seelöwe is not going to suceed, or be attempted.

Although I must add, the take the airport tactic worked like a charm. It is true that the paratroopers suffered heavy losses at Crete, but the Allies did not see it. What they saw is a complete breakdown of their forces and unrestrained chaos. There are accounts of British troops defending an airfield from attacks for six hours, an airfield which was already in German hands.

This is the situations that paratroopers are meant for. Had the attack on Crete been combined with a naval invasion ... allied losses would be catastrophic, and German losses light.

The transports are a problem, but there is nothing that we can do about it. Perhaps we should consider night jumps? It would scatter the troops more, but would lessen the chances of AA dropping half of our force before we know it.

AggonyDuck
06-29-2006, 09:43
Maybe doing night drops with Gliders would be a decent idea? It would definately reduce the risks of being discovered before the actual drop.

Kagemusha
06-29-2006, 10:17
Malta would be a very tempting place,but as Liutenanant Colonel i dont think we have any say on Operational planning. If we can effect the equipment of Paras i would like to see a light mortar in each squad.Paras were always deployed without sufficient supporting weapons.Thank you Franc Im looking forward for this adventure!:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
06-29-2006, 16:16
I think a fighter/light bomber escort to attack and neutralize any airfields close to the landing zone before a landing would be a good idea. If we could get some priority air support, it would be excellent. Also, what would the carrying capacity of the gliders be? Maybe they could carry some motorcycles or light prime movers (like a Jeep) + towed artillery so that the Fallschirmjaegers get that extra punch and an easier way to move around.

Lord Winter
06-29-2006, 20:37
Malta would be a very tempting place,but as Liutenanant Colonel i dont think we have any say on Operational planning. If we can effect the equipment of Paras i would like to see a light mortar in each squad.Paras were always deployed without sufficient supporting weapons.Thank you Franc Im looking forward for this adventure!:2thumbsup:
That shouldn't be beyond our reach as there are already in some use. We also need to improve our Anti tank capabilities or else be able to lobby for the army to support us with panzers or artillery.

DemonArchangel
06-29-2006, 21:19
That shouldn't be beyond our reach as there are already in some use. We also need to improve our Anti tank capabilities or else be able to lobby for the army to support us with panzers or artillery.


I think a fighter/light bomber escort to attack and neutralize any airfields close to the landing zone before a landing would be a good idea. If we could get some priority air support, it would be excellent. Also, what would the carrying capacity of the gliders be? Maybe they could carry some motorcycles or light prime movers (like a Jeep) + towed artillery so that the Fallschirmjaegers get that extra punch and an easier way to move around.

Ok, towed 50mm guns a good idea for stopping tanks? I know that the Flak 88is too heavy. Maybe a Kubelwagen with a larger engine can tow a 50mm gun or a 120mm mortar around? Any idea Kage or Franc?

Rodion Romanovich
06-29-2006, 22:06
Interesting new take on interactives!

I think Kagemusha's idea of mortars sounds great. As for anti-tank abilities I supposed the light mortars it probably takes very well-trained crews and quite decent spotting to stop tanks with it, but I suppose it's slightly better than the alternative way of dealing with tanks - high-calibre rifles to blind them by hitting crew windows followed by sneaking up on the tank and planting explosives - which was the normal way for infantry to deal with tanks at the time...


Task for today: Get all information about the German airborne units in 1940; their strength, their training, their equipment, their tactics, their planes, their strengths and weaknesses.
I'll post a list of our most numerously deployed small arms:
- Submachine guns: MP38, soon also MP40
- Bolt-action rifles: Karabiner 98k, with bayonets and possibly also gewehr granate (rifle grenades). I suppose the paras used the 98k shorter pipe carbine version rather than the 98 rifle.
- Semi-automatic rifles: N.A. at this time
- Assault rifles: N.A. at this time
- Sniper rifles: probably a few Karabiner 98k equipped with scope are available. The FG42 fallshimjaegergewehr, probably one of the most flexible German small arms when it came (scope, plus auto and semi-auto fire modes), came in 1942.
- Machineguns: MG34
- Grenades: stielgranate. Most seem to be shock grenades rather than fragmentation grenades (no fragmented metal but rather a strong concussive explosive power), ideally suited for offensive tactics (and probably very deadly indoors in bunkers) but poor for defense
- Anti-tank arms: not much at all, possibly a few high-calibre rifles to take out electronic equipment and the window panes through which the tank crew looks, combined with explosive charges or "Tellerminen" to attach to the tank while it's been blinded. The serious AT weapons such as Panzerfaust and Panzershreck came much later
- Artillery: 5cm mortar, 14.5 kg, 0.9 kg bombs, 520 metres range. Later largely replaced by the larger 8cm mortar of weight 56 kg (possible to dismantle for transportation), range 2400 metres, bomb 3.5 kg (both smoke, explosive and flare). There was also in 1942 a Kurzer 42 version of the 8cm mortar which was lighter but still nearly as effective, probably a weapon well-suited to paratroopers but there's little information on how it was deployed.
- Handguns: doesn't matter much I guess so I won't bother listing them

From what I can see the paras would rely on rifles, smgs, grenades and different forms of explosives mainly at this time. The paras had more machineguns than the normal infantry - one extra per platoon I think. Mortars seem to have been issued in the same numbers as for the normal infantry. But I wonder how much of mortar and machinegun fire power that could actually be brought to battle during airborne insertions.

I think Kagemusha's idea with mortar support is quite good. It wouldn't be as effective as the later anti-tank methods, but specially trained mortar crews might be able to stop tanks more effectively than the high-calibre rifle+explosives method, at least in some scenarios. Suppose a tank force in the open is pinning a paratrooper formation in cover. The mortar is excellent for such situations, where the rifle+explosives method isn't as effective. But I don't know how good accuracy mortars had at this time. Plus each mortar bomb would weigh quite a lot so a mobile mortar team with airborne insertion and without vehicles could hardly carry more than a few dozen mortar shells even for the smallest German mortars AFAIK. For example it says that the lightest German 5cm mortar had bombs each weighing 0.9 kg, the actual mortar weighing about 14.5 kg.

a good page with information about ww2 weaponry: http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/index.htm The info provided there about paratroopers in 1940 is limited I'm afraid...

DemonArchangel
06-29-2006, 22:43
Legio: Again, didn't you see my proposal for the dropping things like Kubelwagens for transport? It's definitely possible, as some of those gliders held a lot of stuff.

Rodion Romanovich
06-29-2006, 22:47
Legio: Again, didn't you see my proposal for the dropping things like Kubelwagens for transport? It's definitely possible, as some of those gliders held a lot of stuff.

that's a good idea. If a decent transport can be dropped the paras can not only get better logistical abilities but also get a more effective artillery support :2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
06-29-2006, 22:51
Thanks... anyway, i'm researching glider capacities. A single glider should be able to carry a few Kubelwagens, and if they can't, then they're easily paradroppable like Jeeps were in WWII.

DemonArchangel
06-29-2006, 22:55
Also, this might be interest to you all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoilless_rifle

From The Article:

The first recoilless rifle to enter service in Germany was the 7,5 cm leichte Geschutz 40 ("light gun" '40), a 75 mm gun developed to give German airborne troops some useful anti-tank support before the Panzerfaust became widespread. The 75 was found to be so useful during the invasion of Crete that a larger 105 mm version was developed on the same basic pattern. Interestingly both of these weapons were loosely copied by the US Army, reversing the flow of technology that had occurred when the Germans copied the Bazooka. The US did have a development program and it is not clear to what extent the design was copied, as there were in fact differences. The Japanese had also developed a portable recoilless anti-tank rifle which they had reserved for the defense of anticipated invasion of the mainland. As it was, however, PAWs remained fairly rare during the war though the US versions of the 75 started becoming increasingly common in 1945.

~*~*~*~*

Hmm... this might add a great deal to Fallschirmjaeger AT without increasing weight by a great deal.

Also, a Kubelwagen weighs 725kg. A glider has a cargo capacity of around 1300 kg. So we can drop one armed Kubelwagen per glider, as well as some spare parts, fuel, and 4 men to crew/maintain.

Lord Winter
06-29-2006, 23:50
Also, this might be interest to you all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoilless_rifle

From The Article:

The first recoilless rifle to enter service in Germany was the 7,5 cm leichte Geschutz 40 ("light gun" '40), a 75 mm gun developed to give German airborne troops some useful anti-tank support before the Panzerfaust became widespread. The 75 was found to be so useful during the invasion of Crete that a larger 105 mm version was developed on the same basic pattern. Interestingly both of these weapons were loosely copied by the US Army, reversing the flow of technology that had occurred when the Germans copied the Bazooka. The US did have a development program and it is not clear to what extent the design was copied, as there were in fact differences. The Japanese had also developed a portable recoilless anti-tank rifle which they had reserved for the defense of anticipated invasion of the mainland. As it was, however, PAWs remained fairly rare during the war though the US versions of the 75 started becoming increasingly common in 1945.

~*~*~*~*

Hmm... this might add a great deal to Fallschirmjaeger AT without increasing weight by a great deal.

Also, a Kubelwagen weighs 725kg. A glider has a cargo capacity of around 1300 kg. So we can drop one armed Kubelwagen per glider, as well as some spare parts, fuel, and 4 men to crew/maintain.
They do give off quite a bit of smoke so we'll have to be wary of them giving away our positions.

DemonArchangel
06-30-2006, 00:53
Correct, but we don't really have anything else that's so light, yet offers so much in the way of firepower. If you're really that concerned about smoke, just wet the ground behind them so they won't kick up a large amount of dirt/dust when they fire.

Kagemusha
06-30-2006, 04:31
The 75mm Recoilles riflle would be exellent antitank weapon becouse it would penetratte everything that western allies have.You can destroy stationary tanks with 50mm mortar becouse it hits the back or the roof of the tank.But imagine Operation of Cretes where the defender was in the rocky terrain causing lots of casulties becouse all the FallschirmJägers had was direct weapon fire.Now if they had 9, 50mm mortars per Company that would have been very deadly against soft targets.Now if we have 10 man squad.It should be two man antitank team with the 75mm recoilles ,Two man mortar team with ammo.two man medium machinegun team and team leader and three rifle men.Ofcourse weapons teams could act as riflemen if needed.But with that firepower i doubt they would need vehicles that would be only large targets.

Franconicus
06-30-2006, 08:08
:coffeenews:

Franconicus
06-30-2006, 08:08
Excellent start! I think we will have a lot of fun!!

Just some advices:
1) Do not look at the future. Crete has not happened, maybe it will never. You can trust on the experience of the operations in Norway or the Netherlands and Eben-Emael, of course. The battle of Crete was full of mistakes and the results may be misleading.

2) In this face focus on getting information more then try to improve the situation. You get your chance later!

You will have to plan an operation, therfore you need every detail. Wouldn't it be a pity if you plan a large scale airborne operation and it fails because you did not realize that the range of the transporters is too short? :laugh4: :oops: :laugh4:

You must find out:

1) The strength of the air borne forces and their organisation (what is the difference of the Fallschirmjäger and the Luftlande Division?)
2) the training; what is the skill of the soldiers, the spirit, how many are trained. This will not be just one operation. You have to find out the ability to refill your units.
3) the equipment; I think you have a lot of info; try to gather the facts!
4) the tactics:
The Fallschirnjäger are a new arm and has developed some new tactics. Again, do not look at the paras of the allies or at Crete! One important issue is the way the jump, the altidute!
5) the planes: how many do you have, how fast can you replace casualties, what can a single plane carry, range etc.
6) general strength and weakness
https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7379/sdkfz29zr.jpg
https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/218/lg405qd.jpg


Enjoy your weekend and may Germany win this evening:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
06-30-2006, 14:32
To answer Franconicus' Questions (AFAIK), and to ask some of my own.

1.) Weren't the Luftlande divisions not paramobile? And if I recall correctly, the Fallschirmjaeger were army, not air force units.

2.) Well, the units are well trained.... But what IS the capacity for raising more units/refilling old ones anyway? Also, how high are in terms of supply priority? (given that the Germans were basically always short on supplies and most of the good stuff went to the Panzers) I know that high casualties are bad.

3.) Equipment: I'll try to dig up some specs on the 75mm Recoilless Rifle. In the meantime... we need a better rifle than the K98 for the paratroopers. Something that's at the very least shorter and easier to jump out of a plane with.

4.) Tactics: Hmm.... I'll get back to you on that one. I know that capturing airfields/disabling enemy strongpoints is important.

5.) We can't exactly replace planes quickly, nor do we have that many of them, nor do they have long range. And can we get air support and air interdiction? (depends on geography really)

6.) We're really damned to low altitude, low opening jumps, due to the limits of the transport planes mostly. Another issue would be lack of bottled oxygen, preventing the usage of HALO jumping (not that it was around at this period anyway.)

7.) Our general strengths are that we're well trained, highly motivated and we have some combat experience. However, we have very little AT strength as of right now, and we lack tactical mobility once on the ground (hence the Kubelwagens)

King Kurt
06-30-2006, 14:57
Our plane - the Ju 52 details care of Wikpedia:
Specifications (Junkers Ju 52/3m g7e)
Data from Jane’s Fighting Aircraft of World War II[1]

General characteristics
Crew: 3 (two pilots, radio operator)
Capacity: 18 troops or 12 litter patients
Length: 18.90 m (62 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 29.25 m (95 ft 10 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 110.5 m² (1,190 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,510 kg (14,325 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,200 kg (20,270 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 10,990 kg (24,200 lb)
Powerplant: 3× BMW 132T radial engines, 533 kW (715 hp)[1] each
Performance
Maximum speed: 265 km/h (165 mph) at sea level
Cruise speed: 211 km/h (132 mph)
Range: 870 km (540 miles)
Service ceiling: 5,490 m (18,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 17 minutes to 3,050 m (10,000 ft)
Armament
1× 13 mm MG 131 machine gun in a dorsal position
2× 7.92 mm MG 15 machine guns

I have seen a couple of different ranges quoted - up to 650 nautical miles/ 1200 km, but allowing for full loading and combat conditions, we can assume that we can transport paras up to about 250 miles away quite safely - except for the fighters!!!

Rodion Romanovich
06-30-2006, 15:23
3.) Equipment: I'll try to dig up some specs on the 75mm Recoilless Rifle. In the meantime... we need a better rifle than the K98 for the paratroopers. Something that's at the very least shorter and easier to jump out of a plane with.
Are there any problems with the K98k, the carbine version of the K98 rifle? The K98k was the one most widely deployed for the army too.

Rodion Romanovich
06-30-2006, 15:48
The tanks we're facing:
- Lighter tanks of some 3-15mm armor
- Crusader I 7-49mm
- Infantry Tank Mk. I 10-65mm
- Valentine I 7-65mm
- Matilda II & III 20-80mm armor

Our AT weaponry:
- AT hand grenades possible to throw the last 30 or so metres after sneaking up close to the enemy tanks. These were often magnetic devices. There were two versions, one 3.5 kg (magnetic, time fuse, hollow charge) and one 1.35 kg (impact fuse) version. I think the heavier one was able to take out all of the heavier British tanks of the time, while the lighter one could take out most light armored vehicles and lighter tanks, but it's unclear how well it performed against medium tanks.
- High calibre rifle PzB39 (1200 m/s muzzle velocity, 12.7kg weight, 25mm armor penetration). Armor penetration of 25mm - as you can see it can only hurt most better tanks from above or below or by targetting weak points, electronic equipment, or the window used for the crew to look, to blind the tanks. All light tanks and a few medium tanks could be penetrated by this rifle, with much greater chances of success when shooting at the sides or rear (absolutely required for the medium tanks).
- Mortars - the 5 cm mentioned above is the only one available at this time. There were apparently many complaints about the 5cm mortar and lack of better mortars as long as the 5cm mortar was used; it wasn't overly popular (the later 8cm mortar however was). The British on the other hand at this time had a very flexible collection of mortars of different calibres, apparently their lightest mortar, the 2inch mortar, was also possible to fire at horizontal angles (though this usage was invented by commandos a bit later in the war so I suppose in 1940 it wasn't known it could be used in that way) which was very effective for street fighting (and possibly also vs tanks in street fighting?)

Rodion Romanovich
06-30-2006, 15:59
Strengths and weaknesses in small arms:
- Rifles - slightly superior accuracy, penetration and range, but lower fire speed due to smaller magazine and slightly more difficult handling.
- Machineguns - British had the ZB26/Bren Gun, a light mg with only 30 rounds magazine, and heavier MGs that required transportation vehicles. The Germans had MG34 (later also MG42) with unmatched fire rate, large magazine, and good range and accuracy too, and not easily overheated. The MG34 could be mounted on bipod or tripod for light and heavy roles. German MGs were extremely superior to British at this time.
- SMGs - The British had good SMGs too but the German SMGs were more widely deployed it seems, especially the MP40 was made in large series. So the Germans have a slight edge in SMGs.
- Grenades - no fragmentation grenades but shock grenades. Good for offensive and bunker fighting, but for defense and outdoors fighting in the open.
- AT-weaponry - slight edge for the Germans over British counterparts due to the effective magnetic hollow charges. Otherwise pretty similar equipment.
- Artillery - the British had a bit more flexible mortars of different types already at this time, while the Germans only had the 5cm mortar.

Strenghts and weaknesses:
++ Fighting over long distances in the open - German MGs providing superior suppressive fire, the accuracy of the K98k slightly better
++ Medium distance fighting in the open - German MGs providing an edge here too
+/- Short distance fighting in the open - German MGs and the more widely spread SMGs providing an edge, though the rifles are slower than the British counterparts.
- Long distance fighting in complex terrain - British more flexible mortar strength giving a slight edge
- Medium distance fighting in complex terrain - British more flexible mortar strength giving a slight edge
- Short distance fighting in complex terrain - British faster rifles, better light mortars and fragmentation grenades (more effective outdoors) probably gave an edge here
++ Street fighting - German SMGs manufactured in greater series at this time, the British would mostly have rifles in response
++ Bunker and trench fighting - German SMGs better, plus the grenades extremely effective in confined spaces

These are weaknesses and strengths in weaponry, but depending on training and tactics the advantages in these situations could be lost and the disadvantages countered in some cases. A full analysis on strengths and weaknesses must also take training and tactics into account.

JimBob
06-30-2006, 16:59
1) If memory serves Luftlande were meant to be the second wave, they could be flown into airfields once the Fallschirmjager had captured them.
2) The training is among the best in the German army. They are among the most highly motivated soldiers, and they believe they are the best and the most important.
3) From Green Devils (http://www.greendevils.com/greendevils/weapons.htm) the weapons the Germans would have in 1940
Mauser K98
Caliber: 7.92mm (8mm), Length: 43.6 inches, Weight: 9lbs
Maximum Range: 1200 meters, Feed System: 5 round integral box magazine, Rate of fire: 15rpm
MP40
Caliber: 9mm, Length: 33.5 inches ,Weight: 9lbs
Maximum Range: 300 meters, Feed System: 32 Round Detachable Magazine, Rate of fire: 400-500rpm
MG34
Caliber: 7.92mm, Length: 48 inches, Weight: 26.5lbs
Maximum Range: 800 meters, Feed System: Belt or Drum Fed, Rate of fire: 900rpm
4) Again from memory, I believe that they jumped low in the area of 300 to 500 feet, which was considered low by the Allies (on D-Day the airobrne jumped at 500 feet and thought they it was dangerously low)

IrishArmenian
06-30-2006, 21:53
1)Well, I thought the luftflande was not as mobile as the Fallshrimjager. Now, I beleive there were many Fallschrimjager divisions at the end of the war, but early, I beleive there was only the German 1st Parachute Division, the German 2nd Parachute Division, and the Ramcke Parachute Brigade. The Luftlande was somewhat underpowered after fighting the the Poles and the Dutch in rapid succesion. If this takes place before Leningrad, the Fallschrimjager will be at full steam, but a grop of green soldiers (new guys).
2)Their training was beyond good. It was the most brutal in possibly the whole Axis alliance (for such large units, at least). It would take a long time to add replacements. I would start training more immediatley.
3) I beleive "we" really need a carbine. Place an order with Mauser, I beleive they were experimenting with one at this time. The paratroopers cannot jump with a K98, far too heavy. No STG-44's either (I do not know if those are around at this time, even). MP-40's and K98k is what "we" need.
4) I think we have to jump high. We will get eaten up at if we land anywhere near England by thier AA, not to mention their planes. We need a lot of escorts, and possibly a diversionary bombing/Naval battle. This is a 1 shot weapon, we screw this up, we might see much longer war, or (everything is a possiblility) defeat.
5) If possible, could we use JU88's? Britain would use only planes, and no troops would be on alert, except their firefiters. I assume we could make a door on the side of a JU88, it seems simple. I beleive we need a lot of BF109's to engage the British.
6) In my opinion, we do not have much going for us:
+ Suprise
+ Superior weapons
++ Superior training
++ Superior tactics
- British terrain is very unpredictable and varied
- Very hard to train for this operation
- They wil have more soldiers
-- They will fight to the death, not afraid to die
--- We cannot stop at London, the British Isles, have, are, and always will be an incredibly hard place to conquer, so much open space, hills, forests, small islands, rocky terrain. The people there have been conquered by so many, and many of their people have been rebels for over a thousand years: Scots, Irish. If we do conquer England, Sctoland and Erin, it will be tough to control. I am not sure about the Scots, but the IRB, IRA, and Sinn Fein would be completly distracted from the English, and any high-ranking officer who decides to inspect our new territory would have a good chance of turning up dead. Those lands have always been turbulent and hard to control due to the many different types of people. The Catholics and Protestants all around Britain will put aside their differences to fight us. Not a good thing to happen.
--- Scotland, the thing that I would fear the most, and here is why:
a) Those people have indominable spirits from being under other people rule for so long
b) They have been employing Guerilla warfare for hundreds of years
c) The altitude could really get to our troops
d) They know the terrain in and out, they could kill us with their hit and run tactics
e) Not afraid to die
f) Morale
And if what Demon says is correct, you best jump with your weapons. None of this cannister or leg-bag rubbish.

Rodion Romanovich
06-30-2006, 21:57
Mauser K98
Odd in the headline it says K98, but in the text they say K98k. AFAIK the K98k was already deployed in 1940, so I suppose we already have the carbine we wanted.

DemonArchangel
07-01-2006, 00:19
The tanks we're facing:
- Lighter tanks of some 3-15mm armor
- Crusader I 7-49mm
- Infantry Tank Mk. I 10-65mm
- Valentine I 7-65mm
- Matilda II & III 20-80mm armor

Our AT weaponry:
- AT hand grenades possible to throw the last 30 or so metres after sneaking up close to the enemy tanks. These were often magnetic devices. There were two versions, one 3.5 kg (magnetic, time fuse, hollow charge) and one 1.35 kg (impact fuse) version. I think the heavier one was able to take out all of the heavier British tanks of the time, while the lighter one could take out most light armored vehicles and lighter tanks, but it's unclear how well it performed against medium tanks.
- High calibre rifle PzB39 (1200 m/s muzzle velocity, 12.7kg weight, 25mm armor penetration). Armor penetration of 25mm - as you can see it can only hurt most better tanks from above or below or by targetting weak points, electronic equipment, or the window used for the crew to look, to blind the tanks. All light tanks and a few medium tanks could be penetrated by this rifle, with much greater chances of success when shooting at the sides or rear (absolutely required for the medium tanks).
- Mortars - the 5 cm mentioned above is the only one available at this time. There were apparently many complaints about the 5cm mortar and lack of better mortars as long as the 5cm mortar was used; it wasn't overly popular (the later 8cm mortar however was). The British on the other hand at this time had a very flexible collection of mortars of different calibres, apparently their lightest mortar, the 2inch mortar, was also possible to fire at horizontal angles (though this usage was invented by commandos a bit later in the war so I suppose in 1940 it wasn't known it could be used in that way) which was very effective for street fighting (and possibly also vs tanks in street fighting?)

Very nice, don't forget the vehicles and the RRs though. And Franc, that's one sweet looking prime mover for the recoilless rifle. It should be paradroppable with a 3 parachute rig.

Also I learned this while Wiki diving:


A major flaw in Germans airborne procedures was that most of the men's individual weapons were dropped in canisters; this was in contrast with the practice of most other nations's airborne forces, who routinely jumped with personal weapons strapped to the jumper. While this facilitated exit from the aircraft and prevented loss and damage to the rifles, it left the paratroopers armed only with their sidearms and fighting knives in the critical few minutes after landing. The poor design of German parachutes compounded the problem: the standard German parachute harness had only a single riser connecting the paratrooper to the parachute canopy, and thus could not be steered toward weapons canisters and away from ground hazards during descent. Even the twenty-five percent of paratroops armed with machine pistols were at a distinct disadvantage, given the weapon's limited range. Many Fallschirmjäger were shot attempting to make it to their unit's weapons canisters.

DemonArchangel
07-01-2006, 00:25
Argh! Triple Post!

DemonArchangel
07-01-2006, 00:30
ARGH! DOuble Post

Keba
07-01-2006, 08:48
--- Scotland, the thing that I would fear the most, and here is why:
a) Those people have indominable spirits from being under other people rule for so long
b) They have been employing Guerilla warfare for hundreds of years
c) The altitude could really get to our troops
d) They know the terrain in and out, they could kill us with their hit and run tactics
e) Not afraid to die
f) Morale
And if what Demon says is correct, you best jump with your weapons. None of this cannister or leg-bag rubbish.

Simple solution to that problem. Offer them independence, and a beneficial peace treaty. Let them continue like Vichy France ... not involved but in friendly relations.

Although, as Franconius said, I doubt we will be involved in England. Not for at least a year of campaigning. The Kriegsmarine has no transports, and, as it is, lacks heavy ships (at this point, it has neither battleships nor carriers) to provide proper support. Air power alone is pointless if reinforcement cannot be taken to the island.

DemonArchangel
07-01-2006, 14:46
Most likely, we're going to perform some sort of operation in the Med. Probably in the Balkans or in North Africa. We have to train to jump and land in hilly, possibly forested terrain, or in desert, where the sand is whipping up and you can barely see anything.

Franconicus
07-03-2006, 08:07
A major flaw in Germans airborne procedures was that most of the men's individual weapons were dropped in canisters; this was in contrast with the practice of most other nations's airborne forces, who routinely jumped with personal weapons strapped to the jumper. While this facilitated exit from the aircraft and prevented loss and damage to the rifles, it left the paratroopers armed only with their sidearms and fighting knives in the critical few minutes after landing. The poor design of German parachutes compounded the problem: the standard German parachute harness had only a single riser connecting the paratrooper to the parachute canopy, and thus could not be steered toward weapons canisters and away from ground hazards during descent. Even the twenty-five percent of paratroops armed with machine pistols were at a distinct disadvantage, given the weapon's limited range. Many Fallschirmjäger were shot attempting to make it to their unit's weapons canisters.

Very good :2thumbsup:


Their training was beyond good. It was the most brutal in possibly the whole Axis alliance (for such large units, at least). It would take a long time to add replacements. I would start training more immediatley.
I forgot my source but if I remember right the training of the Fallschirmjäger was 8 weeks, including 2 weeks of basic training. The pre-selection and the selection during the courses was tough, though.

Student ordered to lower the discipline and formal education of the paras compared to the rest. The FJ should not only be able to follow orders, but also to make their own decisions. Further more he thought that it would imptove theior pride and their comunity to see that they had less drill than the others.

Do not forget that the Wehmacht had the 'mission type tactics'. This made a big differenc to the Angloamerican tactics.

Franconicus
07-03-2006, 11:41
Chapter 2 – From Paris to Berlin

Paris, June 16th, 1940


Finally Ramcke reaches Paris. The French capitol is very impressive, especially at springtime, and even the red flags with the black crosses cannot spoil the atmosphere.

His first station is the commander’s office. The building is filled with German officers and generals. Ramcke cannot remember to have seen so much tinsel at one place before. A telegram is already waiting for Ramcke. He opens it and looks at the sender: General Student. He calls Ramcke back to Berlin, immediately! What a pity! Ramcke had been looking forward to a couple of pleasant days at Paris. It comes to nothing! Ramcke goes to the adjutant of the commander and tells him that he needs pressingly a flight to Berlin. The officer shakes his head: “I am sorry, Oberstleutnant! All planes are occupied. You have to wait.”
Ramcke urges the adjutant: “It is important! I have to report to General Student.”
“I see, Sir. Please look around. Do you see all these generals? They all are waiting for an opportunity to get to Berlin. I am sorry, but I cannot help you!”
He turns away.
“Damned”, Ramcke curses. “It is easier to conquer Paris than to get a flight to Berlin.”
“Maybe I can help you!” Ramcke turns around and looks at an admiral of the Navy.
“Maybe the Reichsmarine can help a former mate, who is now at the Heer – or should I say Luftwaffe?”
“Good morning, Konteradmiral Dönitz! It is still Heer. How did you run ashore here?”
“That is a long story! Maybe we can talk about this later. By accident I heard your conversation. It seems that you are the one who stranded and that you will not be able to leave Paris for several days. Maybe I can offer you a solution for your problem?”
“That would be great. Do you have a battleship here ready to set sails for Berlin?”
“No, I don’t, not even a submarine. However, the Reichsmarine has an extra wagon here at the railway station and it is ready to set sails. If you like you can come with me!”
“Your offer is very generous.”
“However, the train will go to Bremerhaven. I am sure that you will get a flight there to Berlin.”
Ramcke would prefer a train to Berlin, but he has no choice: “Let me send a telegram and then we can start right away!”

Hours later the two Germans are on their way back to the Reich.

The two officers have their own cabin and can talk unhindered. Dönitz tells his guest that he visited France to see how the Kriegsmarine can take advantage of the French defeat. Of course they talk about the German victory.

Ramcke: “Isn’t it amazing? We both know the struggling during the last war. Now everything is different, everything seems to be easy. We win everywhere, there is nothing that could stop us or even slow us down. France will fall within a few days. Then England will stand alone and has to find an agreement with Germany.”
Dönitz: “Our victory is amazing; and surprising. However, it is still incomplete. England is still standing. I do not think that the war is already finished.”
Ramcke looks surprised: “Come on! England is finished. The Poles had to give up, the French are out of the war and Germany controls the continent. The English are sitting on their islands and cannot do anything to hurt us. Do you think England has still hopes to win this war; to conquer Europe and to march in Berlin?”
Dönitz: “Well, the English are sitting on their islands and we cannot do anything to hurt them. Still you hope that we will win the war?”
Ramcke: “We cannot do anything to hurt them? We can cross that Channel and take their capitol, can’t we?”
Dönitz: “No, I do not think we can. There is still the Royal Navy. How can we cross the Channel without defeating them? One thing I can tell you, the Reichsmarine will not be able to protect the assault divisions or the supply against the Royal Navy.”
Ramcke: “However, our Luftwaffe can! We will simply sink the Royal Navy!”
Dönitz: “You are kidding, Oberstleutnant. You are an old Navy man and you know what we are talking about. There is still the Royal Air Force. Maybe I am wrong, but from all I have heard it is something else than the Polish or French Air Force. And they can stay outside the range of our fighters and enter the battle just when we try to cross the Channel. Anyway, let us assume that the Royal Air Force can be defeated by our fighters and that the bombers and divers can jump at the Royal Navy ships. Do you think they will be able to stop the Royal Navy from cutting off our supply? Maybe the bombers will be successful and sink the English battleships. That will mean nothing. The Royal Navy has thousand of smaller ships, cruisers, destroyer, frigates, and submarines and so on. Maybe they will have disastrous casualties; nevertheless, in the end they will destroy our supply chain. That will be the end of the invasion, or do you think that the Luftwaffe will be able to supply the troops?”
Ramcke: “Err, no, maybe not. I never looked at it that way. Well, maybe you are right; we would not be able to stop the RN if they mobilize all their small ships. Maybe we do not have to. Maybe England is already wondering how to get an agreement with Germany.”
Dönitz: “Maybe I know the English better than you do. They are bullheaded; they will not give in; no matter what Hitler will offer them, they will just ignore the fact that they lost France and Poland and fight on until they will win. Call it heroic or simply stupid, but that is the way it is and we should not pretend they want to have peace.”
Ramcke: “There is one thing you forgot, Konteradmiral. Our Luftwaffe can bomb London and I think that the English government will loose his lust for war as son as some bombs will trop on its heads.”
Dönitz: “I know that the Luftwaffe is strong. However, I am sure that air raids will only increase the English will to fight.”
Ramcke: “Alright! Then it is your business to defeat the British. After all I have heard your submarines are doing an excellent job. How long do you think the British can stand the attacks? They will run out of food and beg for peace.”
Dönitz: “Thank you very much for your faith. We have 60 boats; one third cannot operate in the Atlantic. From these 60 boats there are 20 in the operational area, not more. Do you really think that 20 boats will cut off the English supply? If I had 300 boats, that would be a different story. However with 60 … .”
Ramcke: “That is not many, but I thought that this number will increase soon.”
Dönitz: “I hope you are right! Additionally the French Atlantic bases will increase our strength too. But time is not on our side. The British will improve their defense. They will increase their air patrols. They will activate the resources of their Empire and sooner or later the US will join the war.”
Ramcke: “If I understand you right, you say that there will be a stand-off situation? Isn’t that another reason for both sides to make a peaceful agreement?”
Dönitz: “No. Not a stand-off. The English will be getting stronger and stronger, the US will join the fight and the position of the Russians is uncertain. No, unfortunately, there will be no stand-off.”
Ramcke: “So you think we already lost the war? That is defeatism, isn’t it?”
Dönitz: “I am not saying that we already lost the war. I just veto that we already won the war or that it will be a walk in the park to defeat the English. No, we will have to fight and we will have to concentrate all our efforts and then, maybe, we will win this war. Right now it seems to me that nobody really cares. Everybody ignores the fact that we are at war with England. There are no plans how to continue, no strategy. Everybody seems to think that this problem will go away all by itself. It will not!”
Ramcke: “So, what would you do?”
Dönitz: “First of all we have to accept that England will continue the fight and that it is a strong enemy. If we do not, we are just wasting precious time. Then we should have a plan. Attack the Atlantic connections is a must and we have to focus on that. Furthermore we have to adopt the traditional English war strategy; we have to attack the English at the periphery. England’s strength is that it controls the seas and has full access to resources all over the world. On the other side, this is its weakness. My idea is to attack them at the Mediterranean Sea. There are good opportunities to improve our situation. If we manage to occupy Gibraltar and the Suez the benefit would be high. The Mediterranean Sea would be free of English ships. We would control the whole area, Cyprus, Malta and all the other islands would be ours. Controlling the sea means controlling Northern Africa, too. Southern Europe would be ours. We could be sure that the French colonies stay on our side, too and we could use the resources of Africa. We could build bases for the submarines and planes at Northwestern Africa and at the shores of the Red Sea. The Italian fleet could stay inside the Med and threaten both, the Atlantic and the Indian Ocean. The British would loose the shortest connection from the east; this alone would reduce their transport capacity. They would loose a lot of ships in the Mediterranean, too. Additionally they had to fear operations against the Iraqi oilfields as well as operations against India. Maybe they will accept a favorable peace rather than running into the danger of loosing their colonies.”
Ramcke: “That sounds good, although I always prefer to go the straight way. However, there is one thing you have forgotten. There are no German troops at the Mediterranean, no ships. Germany does not have access to that ocean.”
Dönitz gives a shrug: “Is that a problem? Look at Gibraltar! It is surrounded by Spanish and French territory. Franco owns us a lot. And the French are going to be defeated soon. Regarding Suez: As far as I know the Italians have a pretty strong army at the gate of Egypt.”

Ramcke and Dönitz are still arguing when the train stops at Bremerhaven. A car is waiting for Ramcke and soon he sits in the plane to Berlin. In the plane he is alone and he reflects the dispute he had with Dönitz. Is Dönitz right? Is a war at the periphery better than a direct assault?
Task for today: I think it is time to analyze the political situation after the fall of France. (GB, US, Russia, Italy, France; and do not the smaller countries!!)

Rodion Romanovich
07-03-2006, 14:00
Political situation:
1. GB - firmly determined to resist. Why? First of all they know their home islands can't be effectively blockaded from food (as there's also a lot of local agriculture etc.) or invaded (due to RN). It's difficult to say if the determination would remain after heavy blockade and/or under military threat, but they are on the verge of losing their empire and they still have an Imperial pride and belief in their military capabilities, so resistance is expected to be fierce. A surrender of their homelands is unthinkable unless a serious military threat of invasion exists. Maybe if they lose peripheral regions they might accept a peace proposal that means they will get their peripheral regions back, but that requires that they don't think there's any hope of USA joining. So to beat GB, a long war of attrition is needed. Peace and stability in the already conquered regions, and good trade and resource acquisition conditions elsewhere, so that there can be blockade and planes and ships capable of threatening the RN can be constructed over a period of half a decade or so.
2. France - apart from the Résistance there's not much of a military threat to a local garrison, but constant resistance and sabotage missions can be expected if large garrisons are maintained, or even a fierce guerilla war if small garrisons are maintained. Because there's no chance of making the resistance calm down, but the military forces are capable of keeping them under control, there's a position to pressure the French puppet government for some key military aid, such as lending bases in North West Africa (Morocco) for attacking Gibraltar, or maybe finding a way of stealing part of the Vichy fleet. Though none of the missions have much chance of success, if plenty are attempted there's a chance at least some of them will succeed. Many of them can be carried out secretly without the knowledge of the French people until later (lending bases in Morocco), and those are likely for Petain to accept because it doesn't put him in immediate danger of being killed by resistance fighters. However stealing the Vichy fleet or part of it would be quite difficult. Much of the French army if not most of it is trying to escape from France and rebuild abroad. So there's no possibility of having the French army side by side with the German doing parades and similar for propaganda and popularity improvement. So the chances of actually achieving much at all that would improve the situation with the French occupation are very, very small.
3. Italy hadn't received German help in 1940, but they did get German help later. When giving such help there would probably be plenty of chances of getting Italian favors in return. Mussolini seemed to have a desire to show Hitler he was a capable military leader - for example the Germans warned him not to attack Greece because it would make him lose but Mussolini still proceeded with the attack. Until Mussolini has lost, he's unlikely to accept military cooperation for dealing with the British Med fleet or any help on the ground. However if he loses badly on all fronts in both North Africa, East Africa and Greece, he's likely to accept help and be thankful about it. As he receives that help, pressuring him for favors in return would probably be possible. Better coordination of German and Italian efforts in the Mediterranean would probably have meant a difference to the axis efforts in the region.
4. US is divided in two camps - one for taking part in the war and one against it. The US seemed to have a majority against taking part in the war in 1940. It's probably obvious already in 1940 that the Japanese were going to aim east for US sooner or later, so breaking off connections with the Japanese would probably be necessary if war with the US were to be avoided for Germany. However, it's unclear if even that would have kept US out of the war, especially if Germany had been successful in North Africa, the Middle east and eventually started to seriously threaten Britain by such important (for resource and supply) successes. If North Africa is lost by the British the US would have to send their entire help to Britain if they would join in the war, because a direct landing from such a long sea transport wouldn't be feasible. They would send a strong fleet along with the land troops. The situation would be that of D-Day, only the German forces would have been pretty well supplied and possibly have more strength available to repel the attacks. It's possible that if the Japanese connections were broken and Japan would be successful enough, the US would choose a "Japan first" strategy and perhaps not declare war with Germany initially, or maybe not at all. It would give a 2-3 or maybe 5 year period for finishing the fight with Britain after seizing North Africa.
5. Spain - France could possibly be pressured to lend bases and possibly also some ground forces' help for a conquest of Gibraltar, because he owes a lot to Germany at the time. What he has in terms of fleet resources is difficult to say, plus he might not have the popularity to organize any larger-scale military operations or engage in full, open war. So smaller-scale favors is probably the only thing Spain can give. Or a radical possibility - giving Spain a promise of French land could perhaps make him want to engage in larger operations, with the result that he would get to deal with the unhappiness and occupation problems in France, taking a load off the Heer. It's difficult to say if his desire for more land like that would make him want the risk of helping more actively militarily.
6. USSR - USSR is the trickiest nation in this period. They might have a desire to attack Germany eventually, but they might also be so unsure of their capabilities after the Finnish winter war that they would rather not take the risk, unless German troops would be pinned down to the west. However comparing with what historically happened I'd consider it unlikely that Germany would have been unable to hold back an Operation Overlord with one third of their army if they hadn't been at war with the USSR, leaving plenty of troops available to respond to a USSR attack. The USSR was unprepared for the German blitz tactics and the first 2 days of Operation Barbarossa one of the most carefully planned operations in military history. It's unlikely the USSR would achieve anything comparable if they would attack first. So it's probable that not attacking the USSR until after Britain would be dealt with would work pretty well and not mean any risk. Attacking east without achieving a very quick breakthrough would result in defeat to the west as too much strength would be pinned to the east. A good idea to avoid a war with the USSR as quickly as possible would be to try to divert the USSR attention to somewhere else. Breaking of the the connections with the Japanese could perhaps make the USSR start to turn their attention eastwards.

Militarily I think a victory would be most likely if the FJs are used to:
1. take Malta as quickly as possible to strengthen axis convoys and cut off British supplies in the Med
2. help in the East African theatre by being inserted among the Italians to give them a better leadership, organization and an effective key unit to spearhead their counter-attacks vs the British. However they're unlikely to accept such help until they're aware that they're losing ground. But if the preparations to send help to them are made early, it's possible to have a shorter reaction time and get the aid there before the massive British victories and Italian losses had already taken place. Then the entire long-time war in North Africa carried out by Rommel later would never have happened, because the British wouldn't have been able to expand from their foothold in Egypt, and perhaps they wouldn't even have been able to keep that either (especially not if Malta could have been taken earlier).
3. help in the North African threatre by doing missions behind enemy lines much like SAS and LRGD did for the allies, for instance they could destroy enemy aircraft at airfields in Egypt, especially if the British would have been able to push back the front far west from Egypt so the airfields would be far from the front.
4. try to take Gibraltar with help from Franco and/or borrowing French airfields
5. seize the Suez channel in the North African advance
6. help hold the French north coast against a British-American Operation Overlord, if the US has joined the war. If the US hasn't joined the war, use the FJs to help in the conquest of Britain. There's perhaps a chance that the supply and economical situation after taking North Africa would allow the construction of some 2 more Bismarck/Tirpitz class battleships (probably ideal for fighting in the channel if given enough air support) in a 5 year period, plenty of light cruisers, and plenty of aircraft. If the armed forces would go through those necessary transformations and be able to take Britain there would be a chance of victory.

Keba
07-03-2006, 15:16
The Soviet Union knows that a showdown with the Third Reich is inevitable ... however, they do not expect war for at least 5 more years. Their doctrines are outdated, relying on a fixed defense, rather than defense in depth. They are busily fortifying the Soviet-German border, having abandoned the complete lines on the former Polish-Soviet border. However, it will be at least two or more years before that line even begins to pose any sort of threat.

Among the smaller countries ... the ones that we border with are the following:

Sweden - keeping neutral ... historically, they provided aid to the Germans (mainly transportation of goods and troops to Finland, during Barbarossa)
Spain - with some manouvering, Franco can be persuaded to join, but will want concessions ... in exchange for Axis control of Gibraltar, anything is acceptable
Yugoslavia - militarily fairly powerful (good equipment, but the army suffers from lack of morale, as was demonstrated), but wracked with internal dissent (historically, the underlying problems would begin to be solved only in 1941, namely, the first step happened about a week before invasion), friendly with Germany, but large numbers of people oppose that position ... if Italy can be prevented from free reign, then the area could become a very loyal one, apart from small, less organised groups akin to the French Resistance (again, historically, the revolt had several hundred thousand partisans, with an average of more than one train destroyed per day)
Greece - not truly a match for any other power, and they know it, properly motivated, they would be willing to join the Axis (unforutnately, Italy has other plans) ... the terrain favours them, but, again, they would be easily defeated, should they enter war, Greece also has a number of strategic ports on the Mediterranean.
Hungary - close relations with Germany, one of the more staunch of German allies (they were the only country to require actual military occupation by the Soviets, the others mostly surrendered)
An assortiment of other countries, mainly Switzerland and Ireland, keeping neutral, but friendly to Germany and the Axis.

Strategic objectives would be:
Malta - with Malta out of the way, we could send supplies to Africa quickly and easily
Cyprus - with Cyprus, operations could be undertaken in Syria, which was granted independence around the formation of Vichy France, it was friendly to the Axis
Gibraltar - should Gibraltar fall, convoys would have to go the long way around Africa, exposing them to our U-boats
Afrika Korps - a larger German force dropped into Africa, with the support of paratroopers would be able to flank and annihilate British positions, and take Suez, effectively turning the Mediterranean into an Axis playground ... if possible, strand the Royal Navy's Mediterranean fleet in the Mediterranean, cut them off from supplies and annihiliate them.
French fleet - must be taken as quickly as possible ... if it goes to the Kriegsmarine, the forces would offer a great boost to our naval power, even allowing us to challenge the British Home Fleet in limited engagements

The key in subduing the British is taking away their naval advantage, splintering their holdings ... and hitting the RAF's air bases. With that gone, the Brits will be in a difficult position.

Kagemusha
07-03-2006, 19:04
The Political Situation.

GB

Great Britain have suffered a defeat in mainland.,but is as determined as ever to continue the fight.Like Herr Admiral stated the Royal Navy and RAF are ready to defend Britain from any invasion at this point.On other case the Mediterrranian is lot more vulnerable to our attacks.

Suggestion for Strategy towards GB

There should be three main lines of Operations against GB in order to stand victorious in the end.Also there are many variables that can destroy our Strategy.
First priority should be to take actions in Mediterranian theatre to cut of Britain from her colonies.And also divide the Royal Navy so its more easy to defeat. We should make sure to conquer the Mediterranian strategig islands in order to launch invasion to Suez and Gibraltar.The capture of these locations could be enough for peace in best situation,without more Operations.In order to be succesfull we need to capture the French fleet as soon as possible.And also keep Italy on tight leech so their renegade actions wont harass our bigger plans.

Second Priority should be to start building an invasion fleet against Britain herself .If we wouldnt even succeed on building fleet big enough it should anyway restrict large parts of Royal Navy to protect Britain herself and by that cancelling the reserve of the Mediterranian fleet.

Third Priority should be to sink as many tons as possible in Atlantic.

Soviet Union

Soviet Union is the largest military power in the world at this time,atleast on paper.We have the Ribbentrop pact with Stalin and it should secure us peace for couple years,but not if the Soviets think we are weak.The Winter War against Finland shoved that while Soviets have great material army.But The Stalins purges in 1930´s have made the pool of capable officers very thin.And that should guarantee that at this point while Soviets have the men and equipment necessary to invade us,they dont have enough Leadership to prevail on their campaign.

Suggestion of Strategy against SU

In my opinion we should not agitate Soviet Union.We still have lot of small states between us and them except in Poland.But it would turn out impossible for Soviets to attack strictly in Poland.There just wouldnt be enough Operational space for Red Army. Also if they would attack in other routes.There are lot of Independent States between us and them that have good relations towards West.Including from South.Romania.Bulgaria,Creece,Yugoslavia,Hungary,Finland and Sweden.
Now if SU would launch a campaign against these countries.If not GB,the US would see them as worst threat then us and if we are victorius in our Campaign against GB,the US could force GB to peace talks with us. So in one sentence: If we are thinking of winning this war,we must not attack Soviet Union before GB has made peace with us or surrendered.We can spare great amount of troops against GB while depoying in defence against SU.But if we attack SU,we wont have enough troops for both fronts.

US

In my perspective US is a sleeping giant that should not be awaken if its not absolutely necessary.Their industrial capacity is huge and while they are already supplying GB.We should try to remain as neutral as possible when considering any straight forward confrontation against US.That is the reason i dont recommended any Strategy against US at this moment.

The Buffer Countries

Romania,Bulgaria,Creece,Yugoslavia,Hungary,Finland and Sweden.
These countries are between two Juggernauts. At this point it seems that majority of them are more or less leaning towards us.These countries include: Romania,Bulgaria,Hungary and Finland. Creece is allied with GB and Yugoslavia and Sweden are the most Neutral of these.

Strategy against Buffer countries

In my mind we should support the countries that are leaning towards us.And pressure the Neutrals to start leaning towards us in fear of SU. This leaves us with Creece.Creece is allied with British and we should think her as our enemy.
The Creek mainland is not essential to our goals,but the Mediterranian islands including Cretes are if we attack GB on mediterranian.We could bypass the mainland or Conquer it if necessary.We have land connection from Albania provided by Italy so it shouldnt be hard to take Creece. Altough once again the coordination with Italians is essential and the "short leech" with Italy is essential.

Keba
07-03-2006, 21:46
The US seemed to have a majority against taking part in the war in 1940. It's probably obvious already in 1940 that the Japanese were going to aim east for US sooner or later, so breaking off connections with the Japanese would probably be necessary if war with the US were to be avoided for Germany. However, it's unclear if even that would have kept US out of the war, especially if Germany had been successful in North Africa, the Middle east and eventually started to seriously threaten Britain by such important (for resource and supply) successes. If North Africa is lost by the British the US would have to send their entire help to Britain if they would join in the war, because a direct landing from such a long sea transport wouldn't be feasible. They would send a strong fleet along with the land troops. The situation would be that of D-Day, only the German forces would have been pretty well supplied and possibly have more strength available to repel the attacks. It's possible that if the Japanese connections were broken and Japan would be successful enough, the US would choose a "Japan first" strategy and perhaps not declare war with Germany initially, or maybe not at all. It would give a 2-3 or maybe 5 year period for finishing the fight with Britain after seizing North Africa.

Another solution to avoid war entirely is to convince the Japanese Empire to join in the assault on the Soviet Union ... it would prevent the Siberian troops from reaching Moscow in time to save the city, as they would be tied up with the Japanese and Manchurian forces in the Far East. Siberia and it's oil would go a long way to aid the Japanese economy relieve itself from dependence on outside sources, and it would ease the German assault on Russia.

Ideally, Operation Barbarossa should have four fronts, one from the Caucaus (Italy and the Afrika Korps), Finland (which would tie up northern troops), the Far East (Japan's attack on Vladivostok) and Poland (where the heaviest strike would come from). It is however imperative that the Ribbentrop plan be accepted, the one where local nations are promised freedom from the Soviet regime. That move would give us some 2,000,000 soldiers ... or more. It is also important to keep those soldiers on the East Front (rather than send them to France, as Hitler did, an event that ended in mass surrenders, especially on D-day).

A prolonged war with the Soviet Union heavily favours the Soviets. Speed is where Germany has the advantage. Rather wait for a year and strike at spring, than strike when there is insufficent time to complete the invasion.

DemonArchangel
07-04-2006, 00:01
Whoa, whoa. Try to remember the rules here. Try not to factor what you already know into here. Right now, we don't have to worry about Russia, at least until next year at the very minimum. Right now, we have to worry about a Mediterranean campaign, which means Malta, Gibraltar, and possibly North Africa. This means securing enough materiel to conduct a campagin, getting supply priority (including decent air support), getting enough well trained personnel to conduct said operations, etc. So let's start with the Med. first and try not to think about Russia until we actually know that war with Russia will develop.

Right now, we need to secure naval support. That means the French Navy (try to get their hardware ASAP), that means the Italian Navy. That also means that the we need to force the Italians to work more closely with us. See if we can get some personal influence with the Italian military and bypass Mussolini. Try to get German equipment in the hands of the Italians. I know certain Italian units (like the Bersaglieri) were extremely effective, but they just didn't have the equipment to carry it out correctly. Cross training with the Italians (and other allies) for joint operations would help too, as it would help to break down the language barrier and promote cooperation and understanding. And please, try to FORCE the Italians to cooperate with us, before they humiliate themselves even more.

We're not invading the British Isles anytime soon, but we have to get the experience in fighting in harsh terrain in, so combat in Malta or Crete would certainly be good (assuming our casualties aren't through the roof), but the improvements in combat methods, and the added artillery support will help to keep the casualities lower than they were in real life.

Rodion Romanovich
07-04-2006, 08:53
Another solution to avoid war entirely is to convince the Japanese Empire to join in the assault on the Soviet Union ... it would prevent the Siberian troops from reaching Moscow in time to save the city, as they would be tied up with the Japanese and Manchurian forces in the Far East. Siberia and it's oil would go a long way to aid the Japanese economy relieve itself from dependence on outside sources, and it would ease the German assault on Russia.

Ideally, Operation Barbarossa should have four fronts, one from the Caucaus (Italy and the Afrika Korps), Finland (which would tie up northern troops), the Far East (Japan's attack on Vladivostok) and Poland (where the heaviest strike would come from). It is however imperative that the Ribbentrop plan be accepted, the one where local nations are promised freedom from the Soviet regime. That move would give us some 2,000,000 soldiers ... or more. It is also important to keep those soldiers on the East Front (rather than send them to France, as Hitler did, an event that ended in mass surrenders, especially on D-day).

A prolonged war with the Soviet Union heavily favours the Soviets. Speed is where Germany has the advantage. Rather wait for a year and strike at spring, than strike when there is insufficent time to complete the invasion.

Yes, the USSR would be in trouble if attacked on two or even four fronts, AND the strike would have been launched earlier in 1941 (and Moscow-Leningrad taken) but the US specifically - even when they had a stance against taking part in the war - gave Japan a clear ultimatum not to expand too much further or they could expect war. It was in response to that the Japanese decided a war with the US would be necessary for them to fulfil their expansion goal - they sort of wanted the first strike by hitting Pearl Harbor as, in their judgement, the US were serious about that ultimatum. Now if Japan attacks the USSR it's likely the US would start going after the Japanese - at least within a year (a slower mobilization probably to be expected if the Japanese don't attack first), and if doing so they'd also be fairly likely to go after Germany too. Plus - the Japanese are already in deep trouble with a superpower in the Chinese at the time, and they have the threat of US joining. It would be difficult to convince them of joining a war with a third superpower. And the Japanese Pearl Harbor attack came in late 1941, so waiting until 1942 would mean it would be too late to get Japanese help - they'd already be at war with 2 superpowers. I doubt the Japanese can be of any help at all. The only possibility would perhaps be if help can be forced on the Italians quickly enough to give axis victory in Africa and the Middle east so early in 1941 that there's enough time to invade USSR early that spring, before Japan has got war with the US. Though I suppose the political situation is such that the chances of achieving those things is virtually nil, and EVERY part of that plan must be successful or the entire plan fails. Breaking of connections with the Japanese would give more time - I think a victory in the Med could take 1-2 years so more time is needed. Plus letting the Italians taste at least some defeat first would improve relations with the Italians a lot, and thereby also the possible help that could be received from them. But also allowing them to lose too badly before getting help could also worsen the relations. I suppose making preparations for quick help sent to the Italians, and ask (though a bit more like a statement than a question) the Italians to take the help as soon as things get the least rough for the Italians. At the same time breaking off connections with the Japanese.

Franconicus
07-04-2006, 09:26
So far you haven't analyzed another interesting country: Turkey

Keba
07-04-2006, 09:57
So far you haven't analyzed another interesting country: Turkey

Oh, um ... from what I remember, after the death of Ataturk, the country became somewhat isolationist.

Anyway, the non-agression pact with the Soviets made Turkey feel somewhat safe. It had signed a treaty of mutual assistance with Britain and France (august 1939) ... but remained strictly neutral. Later on it signed a non-agression treaty with Germany (June 18 1941).

There is a strong pro-German groupation, which historically lost power as the invasion of Russia failed. However, if Germany proves that it actually has a chance to win (something the Turks, for the most part, did not believe), it would probably join.

Otherwise, the country remained neutral, not allowing any side to cross it's territory, or pass through the Bosphorus.

Conclusion: they are nothing to worry about, at the moment. However, a victory in the Middle East could give Germany a bargaining chip for bringing Turkey into the war (namely, parts of the former Ottoman Empire) ... the pro-German groupation is not particularly strong at the moment. Proving Germany's chances of victory would greatly improve the chances of Turkey joining the Axis.

AggonyDuck
07-04-2006, 10:24
I don't think we should even think about trying to capture the French fleet. Remember that the Germans tried and failed with that. Also any such attempt would propably push Vichy France straight into the arms of the United Kingdom. I think it might be better if we just allow UK to do its Mers-El-Kebir and instead capitalize on the anti-anglo sentiments that it creates.

EDIT: Unless of course we seize parts of the fleet with a coup de main night time attack on the fleet and thus hit the fleet before the french get a chance to scuttle the fleet. Having the Strasbourg and the Dunkerque with us would definately give us some power in the Mediterranean.

IrishArmenian
07-04-2006, 19:01
Great Britain- Unfailing spirit. It will be a very hard battle with extreme losses on both sides if we invade their land. They will fight until everyone o us is dead. Also, England is a very rich country. We best watch out for the RAF the Royal Navy, and of course the SAS.
USSR- If the English are stubborn, I don't even want to think of how far the Russians will go to defeat us. They have a vast supply of resources, both natural and man made.
USA-It is only a matter of time until they get into the war. They are smart, arrogant, strong and headstrong. They also have some of the best technology in the world. They will join the allies, no doubts about it.
Greece-Probably would like to join the Axis, but Italy will not like that very much, and conquer them.
Turkey- A bit uncertain of the Axis victory, will stay out of the war.
Eire- Could be angry about the botched Easter Uprising, but will aid us against the English in any way they can. Do not try to pull a fast one on them, they will not forget it, and the Guerilla warfare they use against the English will catch us off-guard. The Maquis might have sabotaged, but the IRA, IRB and Sinn Fein are more assassination geared.
Italy- Mussolini is not well liked by anyone. He will probably get usurped in the near future, so watch out for angry Italians later on.
Japan- They are going strong and are quickly proving to be a great ally. Their tactics are odd, but their morale is almost impossible to understand from a Western Culture point of view. They are smart, fierce, swift and deadly. I think no one, but maybe the USA can possibly contend with them. I hate to say it, but they seem more capable then most of our soldiers.
Spain- Let them rebel and fight amongst each other. Then, when their bloody coup d'etat is done, the can ally with us or be forced down by our army. The choice will be theirs.
Papacy- Stay on their good side, or our own people will hate us. The Pope still carries a lot of power.
France- Save a few resistance groups, they SEEM to have become quite docile.
Canada- Will join the war on the allies side, remeber they still have loyalty to the crown.
Watch out for Gypsies, they are fierce fighters who will fight until everyone of their deaths, and we have made it clear that for some reason, Hitler hates them.

Franconicus
07-06-2006, 08:22
Chapter 3 – At Berlin

Berlin, June 17th, 1940

When the plane touches ground a driver is already waiting to bring him to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. Student is already waiting there.
“Ramcke, it is good to have you here at Berlin. I hope you had an interesting trip. Sorry for calling you back, but I need your support. Tomorrow morning we will meet Hitler. The branches will present their concepts for the campaign against England. Göring will suggest several options for the Luftwaffe: support of an invasion, strategic bombing and air war against the British oversea trade. I assume that airborne operations against harbors and airports will be one topic. The key issue here is how we can hold the line long enough and bond to that how can we get heavy arms to support the airborne troops? I know that you made a study to this issue and that you have some ideas, so I want you to join the meeting. Furthermore, I guess in the end Hitler will order to make a detailed operation plan for the invasion of England. It will be your job to care about the airborne part.”

Ramcke: “Invasion, strategic air war and war against sea trade; what do you think about these options?”
Student: “Why do you ask?”
Ramcke: “At Paris I met an old comrade from the navy. He was not confident about the invasion.”
Student: “Well, maybe it is not as easy as some people want it to be. There is a report called “Fall Blau” done by General Felmy in summer of 38. It says that the Luftwaffe does not have the ability to wrestle Britain down. German air raids can only be hecklings. Another analysis from last summer states that due to the British determination and the ability of its leaders to the British terror raids cannot break the moral of the British.”
Ramcke: “Does Göring now these reports?”
Student: “He ordered them! However, they are top secret. I doubt that Hitler has seen them. We should not rack the brains of somebody else. Let us focus on the airborne operations.”

Ramcke and Student talk for a while about the invasion of England and about the meeting at the next morning. In the evening Student says: “Before you can meet Hitler I have to introduce you to Göring.”
They cross the corridors of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium and enter the office of Göring. Student introduces to the Generalfeldmarschall. Göring welcomes Ramcke ebullient: „Herr Oberstleutnant, it is good to have you on board. The Fallschirmjäger are amazing. Their performance during the Western Campaign was outstanding. They are unique! Only we Germans can create an arm like that. All nations begrudge us. I am sure they will defeat the English and hold the fort until the army arrives, don’t you think so?”
“Well, Generalfeldmarschall, I do not think that it will be a walk in the park. We should not underrate the English. Cornered they will fight like lions. The invasion of England will cause a lot of trouble. Maybe it would be better to attack the English at the periphery, maybe at the Mediterranean Sea.”
Göring looks angry and turns to Student: “Do you really think that he can help us?”
Student: “No doubt, Generalfeldmarschall!”
Göring: “Then see about him! And make sure he will wear a proper uniform tomorrow.”
He turns around and the two officers leave his office. Ramcke spends the rest of the evening trying to get a proper uniform of the Luftwaffe.

Early next morning he comes to the conference at Hitler’s headquarter, wearing a proper uniform and all his decorations. Many high-ranking generals are there. Besides Göring and Student there are General Kesselring and General Sperrle of the Luftwaffe as well as half a dozen lower ranks. General von Brauchitsch and General Jodl lead the delegation of the Heer, Admiral Raeder leads the Reichsmarine. Ramcke sees Dönitz among the Navy officers.

Hitler enters the room. Ramcke has never been so close to the dictator before. He notices that Hitler is rather small; his appearance is not very impressive. However, this changes as he starts to talk:
”Good morning, Gentlemen. We meet here to discuss our military options. Before we start let me recall what happened in the past months and years. When I took the leadership of the Reich, Germany was in a miserable state. It was put down and mugged by the Entente, the economy was weak and the social groups were at odds with each others. Our military was weak and we were tied up by the Treaty of Versailles. Now look what happened during my regency. Today we are one people; each and every individual subordinates the collective goal. All criminal and subversive elements have been taken off. Coalesced by the ideals of the Nationalsozialsmus Germany has released a force that is huge, a force no other nation can compete with.
We torn the Treaty of Versailles to tatters, we rearmed, we unified all German territory to one realm, and we gained the domination in central Europe.
What did our enemies do? France, our eternal enemy, snarled, but it did not dare to bite. Too cowardly to fight French abetted the Poles. So we were forced to compel a solution of the Polish problem by military means. The French seduced the English to make war with us, a war I had never aspired, I had always tried to avoid. However, they still did not dare to attack us. They still hid behind their fortress lines.
Now our operations against France are in the last phase. The English are driven away, the French resistance is broken and our troops are chasing the retreating enemy. It won’t take long until France will surrender; then France will have to carry the consequences of its behavior. The Treaty of Versailles and the dishonor of 1918 will be wiped off. Germany will to take the position it is entitled to.
Gentlemen, we have seen outstanding victories, unique in military history. Take the credit for defeating France, the country with the strongest army of the world, within weeks!
Now that the victory over France is near and inevitable we have to talk about the political and military consequences. England is still standing but it has lost all its allies and all hopes to win the war. It is assumed that the English will now accept our position on the mainland. If they want peace I will meet them halfway.
Although in all probability we can end the war without further military operations we have to be prepared at all events. Therefore I ask you, the leader of the military branches, to present me your ideas about a campaign against England.”

Ramcke is impressed by Hitler’s speech. It was not only the words; it was the way he spoke.
Jodl opens the presentations. He describes the strength of the British army, at the most 35 divisions with only half of them prepared. For the army the Channel is nothing but a big anti-tank trench, Jodl says. The army will cross it and defeat the English. The Reichsmarine has to make sure that the assault divisions can cross the Channel speedy and uninterrupted and that the supply will flow afterwards. The Luftwaffe has to make sure that there will be no English attacks during the first two days of the invasion. The British army will be defeated within two weeks.

After General Jodl, Admiral Raeder explains the view of the Navy. He says that the Navy will gather as many ships as possible to ferry the army. This will take some time. To protect the transports against the Royal Navy the Reichsmarine will build mine belts at each side of the Channel. However, the transfer of the troops and the supply can only be guaranteed if the Luftwaffe will control the skies over the Channel and the landing zones. The RAF has to be defeated before the invasion and the Royal Navy ships and facilities have to be bombed.

An alternative to the invasion of the isles is the sea blockade. To bring England to its knees the production of submarines has to be increased significantly. At least 300 submarines are required. They will cut off the English supply together with the surface ships and the bombers of the Luftwaffe and enforce the capitulation of England.

Then Göring begins his presentation. He highlights the successful operations of the Luftwaffe during the campaigns against Poland, Norway and the western countries. He presents that the Luftwaffe has different options to bring England to its knees. First of all there is the invasion. The Luftwaffe can defeat the Royal Air Force. That is something it already did during the Western Campaign and it can do it again. The Luftwaffe can also protect the fleet against the Royal Navy and the Fallschirmjäger can support the army by taking important positions in advance. The second option is a strategic air war against the English industry and sea trade. The German bombers guarded by the outstanding long-range Zerstörer Me 110 can break the backbone of the English industry and the English military. The third option is psychological warfare. The German bombers can make terror raids against the English towns. Shock and awe will undermine the moral of the population and force the English government to end this useless war. Göring himself recommends the terror strategy. The raids against Warsaw and Rotterdam showed the disastrous effect of this kind of operations. Another advantage is that the Luftwaffe can defeat England all alone with minimum casualties.

After this presentation a discussion begins about the amount of support the Navy and the Luftwaffe had to guarantee for a successful invasion. Hitler listens to all that without saying a word. Then he stops the discussion:
“Gentlemen, I thank you for the debate. It is clear that the German army is able for any kind of operation against England and the English leaders must be crazy if they decide to continue the war. You painted a clear picture of the military side of the conflict. Now my part is to add some points of view from the political perspective. If we invade England, there are some things we have to consider. First of all, the English government could escape to Canada and continue to fight from there. This will bring the US into war, which is something we all do not want. Another scenario is that we occupy the islands and that the English social system collapses. This would not only be a huge loss for the western civilization. It would also lead to the breakup of the Empire. However, we won’t be able to take the heritage; other countries would have the benefit, the US, Russia and Japan.
My intention is to defeat Britain, not to destroy it. Therefore we have to find a way to compel the British to peace without defeating them completely. The invasion of Britain is not our first choice. Furthermore, there would be high casualties on both sides and in the end the winner would be Bolshevism.
The alternatives are terror raids against the English towns and a blockade of the islands. I know the English and I know their moral, to put it bluntly their stubbornness and I tell you that they will not give in when you bomb their houses. Forget that!
From all I heard today I have made up my mind. The army and navy will pretend to prepare an invasion against England. We must keep the pressure high, but we will not invade the islands as long as there are other options. The navy will intensify the operations against the English sea trade. This will include submarines, raiders and battle ships. The air force will start with massive air strikes. The targets will be: the sea trade, especially in the Channel and at the Western Approaches, the harbors especially at the Liverpool area, as well as military installations of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. Raids against the English population are strictly interdicted. The Luftwaffe will do these operations in co-operation with the navy. These measures will surely increase the pressure on the English government. In the next days I will shift the focus of the industrial production from the army to the air force and navy. Several army divisions will be disbanded to increase our production capacity.
Additionally we have to find another indirect way to attack the British to demonstrate them our strength. Mussolini will soon release the Italian operations at the Mediterranean Sea. I want you to analyze how we can support him. I am talking about short but hard military strikes. We do not have any major navy unit there, so the focus will be on air support and airborne operations. The Luftwaffe will have the leadership in the preparation of these operations. I expect possible scenarios as soon as possible.”
These words end the meeting.
The delegations leave the room. Göring does not look satisfied. On the way through the corridors he says to Kesselring: “We have to start the preparation at once. We will meet at 4 o’clock in my office. Bring along Sperrle and Stumpff!”
Then he turns to Student: “Alright, Student! Now your smart right hand can proof his theory. I order you to make this study about the Mediterranean Sea area!”
When they leave the building Student takes Ramcke aside: “Ramcke, I want you to go home, pack your bags and be in my office within an hour!”
50 minutes later Ramcke is back in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. He is ready for departure. Student gives him his instructions:
“Ramcke, you heard Hitler’s idea. We have to find out where and how German troops can support the Italians in the Mediterranean Sea. The goal has to be to cut off this ocean for the British completely and to do them as much damage as possible. I want you to do this analysis. Identify the targets; try to get information about the defense, make a proposal of the required forces and a rough operational plan; a priority list or a roadmap for the operations would be good. To be honest, the Luftwaffe will not be able to support you much. There is little information. We have never thought that the Mediterranean Sea could be our next battle field. Therefore you have to gather all information. Identify the targets, find out the strength of the defense, and rate the strength of the forces we would need! Do not care about the political boundaries! Just make a military analysis, Hitler will decide then. I need your report in four weeks. So hurry!
Maybe one additional remark; it will be wise to operate unnoticed. It’s obvious that the British shall not notice your activities. Additionally we have to be careful about the Italians. Hitler agreed that they will lead all operation to the south of the Alps. They are thin-skinned sometimes”
Then Student hands him some documents. Ramcke looks at them: There is his transfer order to the 7. Fliegerdivision of the Luftwaffe, a passport; a list of contact persons; fourth document is ordering all authorities to support Ramcke. Ramcke is surprised when he looks at the signature.
Ramcke: “When did Hitler sign this?”
Student smiles: “The Luftwaffe is used to act rapidly. I always have some of these documents, just in case of emergency. You have a plane available, too. It is waiting at Tempelhof. Keep me updated! Leutnant Schulz will be your assistant. He will put up a team while you are away. Now I wish you good luck for your mission.”
Ramcke salutes, then they shake hands. When Ramcke leaves the room Student call after him: “Welcome at the Luftwaffe!”
After he had left the building Ramcke wonders where to turn to first. He has to get a lot of information and make a good proposal in a very short time. He looks at the list he had received from Student. Where should he go first?

The Foreign Office
The Abwehr, the military intelligence agency
Spain
Italy
The Balkans
Greece
Turkey
Or somewhere else?

King Kurt
07-06-2006, 09:28
It has to be The Abwehr, the military intelligence agency. You need some insight into the whole scene, political and military, across the Med. The Abwehr should have that sort of info. They will also have contacts/ offices in all the embasies so information could be sent secretly to those destinations. After a briefing with The Abwehr, our friend should head for the Balkans. They will need to be secured and the oil in Romania is vital - especially for an air/sea war.:2thumbsup:

Keba
07-06-2006, 10:08
It has to be The Abwehr, the military intelligence agency. You need some insight into the whole scene, political and military, across the Med. The Abwehr should have that sort of info. They will also have contacts/ offices in all the embasies so information could be sent secretly to those destinations. After a briefing with The Abwehr, our friend should head for the Balkans. They will need to be secured and the oil in Romania is vital - especially for an air/sea war.:2thumbsup:

The Balkans are secure, at the moment. A transfer of oil can go through Hungary, which is our ally.

I say Abwehr, naturally, it would be a good introduction and familiarisation, but afterward either Spain or Italy. Spain is a strategic country, allowing control of Gibraltar. Italy, with proper leadership (and equipment) would prove invaluable, especially in the African campaign and the attempt to capture the Middle East. So, uh, scratch the either, make it Spain, it would allow the weakening of the English very well.

AggonyDuck
07-06-2006, 10:09
Although the Abwehr might be nice, I personally prefer Italy. Proper coordination with the Italians is the key for winning in the mediterranean. Also I think the Italians can supply us with decent information if needed about British troop strengths. ~:)

Kagemusha
07-06-2006, 10:29
Start with Abwehr.

Rodion Romanovich
07-06-2006, 12:19
Some relevant events at around this time:
- the vichy government is formed this day
- Churchill gives his "finest hour" speech this day
- a few days later the Italian alp offensive begins (but it is beaten off - we're probably not supposed to know yet the Italians are that bad fighters, but we probably know already that the Italian military tactics and equipment at the time are of very low quality)
- Germans occupy channel islands at the end of the month
- Mers-el-Kebir happened at the beginning of July. Already at this time (17th of June), there should be indications that something like it will happen. So we probably have the knowledge to act according to the assumption that something of that sort will happen. At the time between 17th of June and on to Mers-el-Kebir the British are putting great effort in getting control over the French fleet.
- Italian actions in East Africa begun in early July 1940, so at 17th of June 1940 it's probably known that this will take place. The Italians have superiority in numbers so it's perhaps not possible for any German forces to expect their defeat there at this time, plus Mussolini probably tried to hide any information of failures for as long as possible. Germans have little chance of, without diplomatical implications, forcing help upon the Italians around 17th of June 1940. Though a possible policy of "quick breakthrough in wars against British peripheral regions" could be diplomatically feasible as a means of in practise sending forces to the Med. Though as long as the Italians were winning in Africa, it would be difficult for the Germans to claim any part of Africa as theirs as that was a region that belonged to Italy's sphere of interest and the Italians wouldn't want it in German hands. Supposedly a quick strike against Malta with German troops could be a good idea to force upon the British. As for oil, in the short term perspective Romania would be more interesting than the Middle east. The Middle east could be useful after the Italians run into more problems.

As for the answer to the question:
- go to the Abwehr first for general intelligence reports (foreign office is probably geographicall close so it might be taken to before proceeding to another geographical region). Then Italy (to get a Malta operation running as quickly as possible, plus analyze how much help the Italians can be given at an early stage without making them win in Africa - if they win they'll think it's their victory and not cooperate as much later), then the Balkans (for oil fields in Romania), then Spain (for later help with Gibraltar). Turkey won't be worth visiting much until the Italians have run into problems in Africa and Greece and Germans can take over the command and send in own forces into the Africa region and threaten the British in Egypt. At that time, Turkey would maybe see benefits in an alliance, but before that there's only a possibility for empty diplomatic talk.

King Kurt
07-06-2006, 13:27
The problem with this - and other interactives - is the application of hindsight to the problem. Already we are identifying Malta or Gibralter as likely targets - probably because we know how important they actually were during the war. While Gib will always be identified as a key strategic base, it is a bit more difficult to make the same judgement for Malta. Malta's importance during the war was due its use as a base against the supply convoys for North Africa - and in 1940 there is currently no North African campaign. It could be argued that the base's strategic value had been judged by the English already by the poor defence's it had been allocated - for example the famous 3 gladiators which were the Island's initial air defence when the Italians started bombing.
I suppose my plea is that we try to explore some totally new approach as opposed to trying to enact the original campaign a bit more efficiently. Difficult I know, but it could be interesting.
One final point - does anybody have any thoughts on why Franco - after all the help he had from the Axis - remained so neutral during the war. It would have been so easy to throw in with the germans and open its borders to allow an invasion of Gibralter - but it never came close. Anybody got any thoughts??:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
07-06-2006, 15:57
The first step to fighting a war is to know your enemy. With that in mind. To the Abwehr.

Then of course, to Italy. We have to build up some contacts there, especially ones that are pro-German but anti-Mussolini. Also, cross training and military advising would help.

And Malta wouldn't have strategic value in just a North African campaign. Whoever controls Malta also controls west/east traffic in the Mediterranean, making any subsequent Balkan campaign (against say... Greece) easier, as well as making any future North African campaign easier as well. In fact, controlling Malta is more important than controlling Gibraltar in my opinion, at lesat in the short term.

After all, Malta probably isn't too well defended, so we can easily drop in and take it with minimal casualites.

Rodion Romanovich
07-06-2006, 16:19
The problem with this - and other interactives - is the application of hindsight to the problem. Already we are identifying Malta or Gibralter as likely targets - probably because we know how important they actually were during the war. While Gib will always be identified as a key strategic base, it is a bit more difficult to make the same judgement for Malta. Malta's importance during the war was due its use as a base against the supply convoys for North Africa - and in 1940 there is currently no North African campaign. It could be argued that the base's strategic value had been judged by the English already by the poor defence's it had been allocated - for example the famous 3 gladiators which were the Island's initial air defence when the Italians started bombing.
I suppose my plea is that we try to explore some totally new approach as opposed to trying to enact the original campaign a bit more efficiently. Difficult I know, but it could be interesting.
I agree, but I don't really know what we can know and what we can't. At the very least it would become clear to the Germans that the Italians would run into problems after: 1. analyzing intelligence on the Italian army strength, 2. seeing the failure in the Italian alp offensive (which happens 2 days or so after this date and must seem extraordinary and probably would occupy the minds of German commanders too for more than just a little while). Gibraltar is already analyzed as an important target, but if Gibraltar can't be taken (a visit to Spain would find out whether it would be possible or not with the necessary Spanish help I suppose), then Malta, after enough Italian failures, would stand out as a target necessary to take. So after all any targetting of Malta would have to wait until later in any case I suppose :embarassed: Have the Italians started bombing Malta yet? And apart from the pretty weak plane garrison, what other defenses are available on Malta? Ships, anti-ship batteries, AA etc?



One final point - does anybody have any thoughts on why Franco - after all the help he had from the Axis - remained so neutral during the war. It would have been so easy to throw in with the germans and open its borders to allow an invasion of Gibralter - but it never came close. Anybody got any thoughts??:2thumbsup:
Maybe he wanted to avoid pressuring his army into more fighting, maybe he feared loyalty wasn't too high? Or he simply didn't trust the axis to not backstab him? Also there might have been economical issues with fighting any war - did the Spanish really have that much equipment to speak of? And one final point is that the axis didn't really pressure him much, and by the time the battle of Britain begun it must have been clear that the German navy could hardly support an invasion of Britain, and that therefore any axis victory would be difficult or impossible. On the other hand Spain was close to axis-controlled occupied France, and didn't and couldn't take a stance against the axis either. Neutrality seems to me the most reasonable option for Spain at that point.

Kagemusha
07-06-2006, 17:01
I agree with Kurt.Lets pressure Spain to allow our troops to be transported through Spain and take Gibraltar.Franco can thank us for lot of help when he rose to power so it should be possible to do.Also Gibraltar is lot more viable to British then Malta.And also once taken its a formidable place to defend from Seaborn attacks.Great thinking King Kurt.:bow:

IrishArmenian
07-06-2006, 22:37
Defintiley the Abwher. There, he can get the information he needs on the other areas and from there pick THE most helpful location to travel to.

Franconicus
07-07-2006, 07:49
I tried to introduce you to the year 1940, obviously I failed.
We all know that Germany lost the war and we all know that Italy was weak, and that the US joined the war. Forget all that.
In 1940 it looks like nothing could stop the Germans. They defeated the French, which were stronger than the Brits and saw no reason why the Brits should want to go on fighting.

To the strength of the armies:

In 1939 the ranking was (accepted by all nations):

1) France (strong army and strong air force)
2) Italy (strong army, air force and navy, they were the first to moderize their army, they had some military success in Spain and Africa)
3) Germany (esp. the Luftwaffe was overrated)
4) GB (strongest navy, small but effective air force, weak army)
5) USA (strong navy, small army/air force but big potential)
6) USSR (weak army, bad leadership, political situation uncertain)

The fall of France changed that ranking to:

1) Germany (with the tanks and airforce extremly overrated)
2) Italy
3) GB
4) USA
5) USSR

So nothing to worry about. If there was not the Channel and the RN the war would be over withing 4 weeks.

King Kurt is right. You will not be able to replay history with some small modifications. The Axis was not close to victory. You will have to be much smarter. In fact I can only see a very small window for victory.

Try to rely more on facts than on your memory or prejudices. Once more the King is right. Why did Franco not join the Axis? Or another question: what exactly is the position of Stalin? Or the Balkans?

Kagemusha
07-07-2006, 08:10
Franc i have to completely disagree with your estimation how the SU was wiewed in 1940. In terms of men and material it had vastly the biggest army at that time and the Germans knew it also.

Franconicus
07-07-2006, 09:15
Franc i have to completely disagree with your estimation how the SU was wiewed in 1940. In terms of men and material it had vastly the biggest army at that time and the Germans knew it also.
I disagree!
One example. We all know that France and GB did not dare to attack Germany, although the western flank was open.
However, the Allies planned an invasion of the Caucasus oil fields, to cut off the oil supply for Germany. Their assumption was that this would be enough to make the USSR break down within a couple of weeks. :laugh4:

Keba
07-07-2006, 09:42
After the civil war, General Francisco Franco ruled a nation exhausted politically and economically. Guerilla warfare in the countryside continued until 1950. During the Second World War, Franco, under extreme pressure (Hitler had brought his army to the border of Spain after invading France), opted to remain neutral arguing that Spain could not afford a new war, but, as a concession to his civil war backer, authorised volunteers to go to the Russian front to fight the Soviet Union in an anti-Communist crusade in what came to be known as the Blue Division.

Thus, Spain is an unlikely ally ... and the Germans would know it, but, if they can be convinced to open their territory to our troops marching on Gibraltar, it would be the best we could get (short of conquering the place).

Otherwise, while the USSR had a large army, it was mainly considered third-rate by all the parties involved. They were technologically backward, lacked good officers, and political officers had mostly had all command authority (officers chosen for their political loyalty, not skill).

Yes, about the only thing the Brits had was the Navy ... and most of the posts here assume that the Navy is the only problem.

Stalin's position:
He knew that a war with Germany would be costly, and iffy (which it was). So, he took to the non-agression treaty with enthousiasm. He got around to fortyfying the border in Poland, but it would have been years before the fortifications became operational. He wanted and desperately believed in peace with Germany. He suffered a mental breakdown in the first days of Operation Barbarossa. He ordered his troops not to fire until confirmation was made (he later admitted that the lack of discipline in the army prevented a complete disaster, as the soldiers did fire). Some of the more ... realistic thinkers in the Soviet Union expected war realistically, in 1945, or even later.

The Balkans:
A precarious position. They are close to Germany and Italy and far from the nearest Allies, meaning that they are, in essence, between a rock and a hard place, as the saying goes. Many of these are tradtionally friendly to Germany (Hungary and Yugoslavia especially). If given the choice, they would probably join the Axis (but, the example of Yugoslavia stands, where a coup'd'etat put Yugoslavia back out, making the Germans invade). All in all, Italy's ambitions could get in the way of maintaining order there (again, the site of one of the largest partisan movements, and all because Italy took the shoreline territories), but, at the moment, Italy is a prized ally, and their complete ineptitude is not openly known. That their equipment is outdated, however, is known.

Kagemusha
07-07-2006, 09:56
I disagree!
One example. We all know that France and GB did not dare to attack Germany, although the western flank was open.
However, the Allies planned an invasion of the Caucasus oil fields, to cut off the oil supply for Germany. Their assumption was that this would be enough to make the USSR break down within a couple of weeks. :laugh4:

I will provide you proof.Once i have little time on my hands.Good debate is always refreshing.:2thumbsup:

IrishArmenian
07-08-2006, 00:33
Stalin is a incredibly unstable. He is emotional (not neccesarily a bad thing, but everything else is), not a fast thinker, unreliable, mentally unhinged, dissilusioned, and he beleives he does what is right for his people.
The Balkans could easily be influenced by the Axis to take up arms against the USSR. I think they hate the USSR more than they dislike the Axis, except of course the Jews living in the Balkans, but they are screwed either way.

Franconicus
07-10-2006, 16:27
Chapter 4 – The ‘Abwehr’
Berlin, June 17th, 1940

Ramcke orders the driver to go the OKW (High Command of the Army). The building resembles a beehive. He enters the department of the Abwehr. A young secretary is working at the reception.

“Good afternoon! My name is Ramcke. I am looking for someone who can give me …” The secretary waves aside: “General Oster is already waiting for you, Sir.”

She guides Ramcke to another office, where a general is waiting for him.

“My name is Oster. Admiral Canaris asked me to compile this information for you. Maybe you would like to run over the pages. Afterwards, I will be at your disposal. I do not have to tell you that this is strictly confidential material.”
Ramcke takes the report and sits down in a corner. Then he opens the document.

Military Situation at the Mediterranean after the fall of France

A) Allied Forces

Eastern Mediterranean

Alexandria (Brit.): 4 battleships (Warspite, Royal Sovereign, Malaya and Ramillies), 1 carrier (Eagle), 9 light cruisers (Manchester, Liverpool, Gloucester, Orion, Neptune, Sydney, Carlisle, Calypso, Caledon), 21 destroyers (plus 4 in the Red Sea), 6 submarines
Malta (brit.): 1 destroyer, 6 submarines
Alexandria (French): 1 battleship (Lorraine), 3 heavy cruisers (Suffren, Tourville, Duquesne), 1 light cruiser (Duguay Trouin), 1 destroyer, 6 submarines

Western Mediterranean

Gibraltar (Brit.): 1 battleship (Resolution), 1 carrier (Argus), 1 light cruiser (Arethusa), 9 destroyers

Toulon (French.): 2 modern battleships (Dunkerque, Strasbourg), 2 old battleships (Bretagne, Provence), 4 heavy cruisers (Algérie, Foch, Colbert, Dupleix), 6 light cruisers (La Galissonnière, Jean de Vienne, Marseillaise, Gloire, Montcalm, Georges Leygues), 37 destroyers, 6 torpedo boats, 36 submarines. The French transferred the battleships Dunkerque, Strasbourg as well as light forces from Brest to Mers-el-Kebir. The old battleships Lorraine, Provence, Bretagne and cruisers were sent to Alexandria.

The Allies have a job split in the Mediterranean. The French have the task to secure the Western Mediterranean; the British have the lead in the Eastern Mediterranean. The commander of the Eastern fleet is Adm. A.B. Cunningham.

The close fall of France will threaten the British position as they have to replace the French Navy in the Western Mediterranean. The Royal Navy will send a task force with the battle cruiser Hood, the carrier Ark Royal and the destroyers of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla (Escapade, Faulknor, Fearless, and Foxhound). They will sail from Scapa Flow to Gibraltar at June 17th. The forces will be enforced by the battleships Resolution, Valiant, the cruiser Enterprise and the destroyers Escort, Foresight and Forester as well as the cruiser Arethusa. Commander of this force is VAdm. Somerville. Additionally the 13th Destroyer-Flotilla (Active, Wrestler, Vidette, Douglas, Keppel, Vortigern, Wishart and Watchman) will be positioned at Gibraltar.

The British army in the Mediterranean is rather small, mainly focused on Egypt (commander: Wavell, Fought in the Boer War and in Palestine during the First World War. He was appointed commander-in-chief, Middle East in July 1939). There are only few tanks; there is a lack of antitank weapons and air defense. The French have armies at Tunisia and Syria.

The RAF has only weak forces at the Mediterranean theatre, maybe 200 planes. Many of these are outdated.

Italian Forces
6 battleships (Conte die Cavour, Giulio Cesare, Caio Duilio, Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Andrea Doria), 7 heavy cruisers (Pola, Zara, Fiume, Gorizia, Bolzano, Trento, Trieste), 12 light cruisers (Garibaldi, Duca degli Abruzzi, Eugenio di Savoia, Duca d’Aosta, Attendolo, Montecuccoli, Cadorna, Diaz, di Giussano, Da Barbiano, Colleoni, Bande Nere), 59 destroyers, 67 torpedo boats and 116 submarines.

The Italian battleships are either new or updated. The Italian submarine force is the strongest in the world.

The Italian army and air force outnumbers and outguns the British.

Strategic Situation

The Mediterranean Theatre has not the first priority for the British. The Italian Navy is stronger and has a better position, as the British forces are separated. Therefore the British will remain defensive. No bigger operations are expected. The British High Command rates Malta and Gibraltar as indefensible. In case of an invasion the British will try to evacuate these bases. Most of the units have already been transferred from Malta. Egypt and the Suez will be defended with all means. There are plans to occupy Crete in case of an Italian invasion on the Balkans. Crete and the Greek mainland would give the British the chance to air raid Romania.

After the surrender of the French troops the British expect an Italian invasion against Egypt. They try to increase the defense. A convoy (US.1) from New Zealand and Australia already reached Suez at 12th of February. On board there were 13,500 men. A second convoy (US.2) arrived at Suez in May; on board the 17th Inf. Brig.. The third one, US.3 carried the Australian 18th Inf. Brig. to Suez. It arrived at 16th of June.

Ramcke runs over the pages. Now he has at least an impression about the British formations. The information about the British army and air force strength is not very substantial. He hopes that the report is reliable, especially: “… rates Gibraltar and Malta as indefensible…” and “… there are only few tanks, there is a lack of antitank weapons and air defense”.

When he finally closes the document, Oster turns to him: “Admiral Canaris would like to meet you.”

Ramcke stands up and follows the General. Finally, they reach the office of the Admiral. Oster takes leave and Ramcke is alone with the leader of the German Abwehr.

Canaris: “Oberstleutnat Ramcke, I hope we could help you with some information. I regret that we do not have more. The number of our tasks is increasing faster than our head count.”

Ramcke: “Admiral, thank you very much for your support. To be honest, your help was larger and faster than expected.”

Canaris smiles: “The Abwehr does the best she can and I really wished I could give you more information. You make an investigation about operations in the Mediterranean Theatre?”

Ramcke: “Err, yes. I am just beginning.”

Canaris: “Maybe I can give you more help, soon. I am going to Spain to analyze the political and military situation there. Maybe we can meet afterwards and talk about the results.”
Ramcke: “This would be very useful. Thank you for your offer!”

Canaris: “Maybe I could ask you for a favor, too, Oberstleutnant? You will gather a lot of information about the military situation in the south. Of course this could be useful for the Abwehr, too. You could verify your data with the information we have before you give them to your superiors.”

Ramcke: “Certainly, Admiral! I will be glad to co-operate with your department.”

Canaris: “That sounds great! Now, I do not want to slow stem you. I wish you a good trip and hope to see you soon back in my office.”

After he had left the OKW Ramcke wonders were to turn to next.

DemonArchangel
07-10-2006, 17:09
Do the Italians have an equivalent of the Abwehr? If so, take a trip down there. Maybe they know things that we don't.

Kagemusha
07-10-2006, 18:42
Next the foreign office.I would love to start taking the Gibraltar first.A)We dont need our (Italian)Navy on that.Just press the Franco to allow troop movement through Spain and we take it from air and land.B) That would effectively stop British fleet maneuvers from in and out the Mediterranian.:2thumbsup:

Here is the plan of Operation Felix that Germans had to take out Gibraltar.Ofcourse we are on earlier point and i think this could be exellent target to use FallchirmJäger in the Operation too.:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/felix.shtml

AggonyDuck
07-10-2006, 18:57
Overall Gibraltar is of bigger strategical value than Malta, but the seizure of Gibraltar is impossible without Spanish help. The conquest of Gibraltar actually makes the conquest of Malta redundant. But at the moment I think we're unable to actually invade Gibraltar and the chances of getting Spain to join now are rather meagre. (Especially with Canaris heading to Spain)

At the moment our first operation should be an airborne invasion of Malta with Italian naval support. The earlier we launch the assault the better, we can't allow the Brits to gather their strength in the mediterranean.

After that we can start thinking of continued operations and getting bases for an operation against Gibraltar.

Anyways now I think we should head to Italy and visit the Italian Supreme Command and see how we can influence the Italian planning. ~:)

IrishArmenian
07-10-2006, 19:01
Foreign Office is the way to go. From there we can look over the terrain and maps of what ever place we are going to attack- hopefully Gibraltar.

Kagemusha
07-10-2006, 19:04
About Admiral Canaris.Now we know that he was one of the highest ranking members of resistance,but ofcourse Ramcke doesnt know that. This creates us a certain dilemma. Ofcourse we cant do anything about Canaris,becouse that would be worst kind of hindsight and would ruin the game.So any suggestions how to deal with the commander of military intelligence that is actually playing against current leaderships plans?So what to do with good ole Wilhelm?:laugh4:

Here is a short bio of Canaris:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Kagemusha
07-10-2006, 19:05
GAH!Double post.:embarassed:

Rodion Romanovich
07-10-2006, 20:10
Spain or Foreign office (foreign office would be rational as next stop because it involves diplomatic discussions and is situated very close to Ramcke's current position in Berlin if I'm not mistaken) next to try and convince Franco of allowing troop movements for seizing Gibraltar. Then perhaps the British strength in the Med will be limited enough to make the vastly numerally superior Italians able to do something else than just losing, because in war you can't cheat by diving so the enemy gets red cards :2thumbsup: In any case, it should by 1940 be clear that any extra push in defeating the British in the Med would be positive, even if we are under the, at that time seemingly reasonable, belief that Italy will be able to win. So Gibraltar it is, then.

AggonyDuck
07-10-2006, 22:00
Anyways a paradrop against Gibraltar with the current airborne tactics is currently an impossibility. Gibraltar has a size of 6.5 km² and afaik was protected by four battalions. The airstrip on Gibraltar is extremely small and I'm not sure if Ju-52's can even take off from it.

Our paratroopers would be slaughtered in the initial seconds of the paradrop due to the fact that they're mostly unarmed during the first minutes after the drop and we would be jumping straight down on british troops. Any assault on Gibraltar has to come through Spanish territory along a rather small corridor of land. You'd need some rather heavy artillery and big bombs to take that Rock.

Rodion Romanovich
07-10-2006, 22:07
Anyways a paradrop against Gibraltar with the current airborne tactics is currently an impossibility. Gibraltar has a size of 6.5 km² and afaik was protected by four battalions. The airstrip on Gibraltar is extremely small and I'm not sure if Ju-52's can even take off from it.

Our paratroopers would be slaughtered in the initial seconds of the paradrop due to the fact that they're mostly unarmed during the first minutes after the drop and we would be jumping straight down on british troops. Any assault on Gibraltar has to come through Spanish territory along a rather small corridor of land. You'd need some rather heavy artillery and big bombs to take that Rock.

That was the idea, I suppose. A paradrop is IMO out of the question, but we could still use the FJs in the operation, although inserted the land way. Borrowing Spanish airfields north of Gib, and sending in a combined assault of tanks, artillery, bombers and fighters would probably work.

Keba
07-10-2006, 23:47
I do believe that the next move should really be Spain. Remember, we are confident that the Italians can not only hold their own, but also win. After all, they have superior forces. For the moment, the Balkans are being ignored by both sides.

It is also vital that we get Gibraltar, if we don't, our supremacy in the Mediterranean will be greatly disputed, and possibly even allow for an allied victory.

We need Franco and we need Spain, or we can freely forget about any sort of victory in North Africa or the Mediterranean, short of a miracle, nothing would be of help.

Once Gibraltar is out of the way ... Malta becomes a non-issue, it is unimportant, as supply ships have to run from the Suez across half the Mediterranean, and into Italian homewaters (which would also secure the Western part of the sea).

The Paras would be a very useful addition to the invasion ... their training is superior, and, in a support and infiltration role, they would offer a great edge to the assault. Any sort of drop is out of the question.

Offering Franco a choice between a rock and a sandwhich would be best. The rock would be a full-scale invasion ... the sandwhich, support in rooting out the partisans causing trouble, an offer of Gibralatar once the war is over, and not getting him involved in the war (after all, we threatened with invasion with superior forces, he has no choice but to cave, as the allies would think).

AggonyDuck
07-11-2006, 00:05
To be honest it's better if the Rock is left to the grunts of Heer. Using FJ's for Gibraltar would be a waste. It's just such a easily defendable position that you need a lot of firepower concentrated on a small area to break through. Even then the casualties would still be heavy.

DemonArchangel
07-11-2006, 00:16
To be honest it's better if the Rock is left to the grunts of Heer. Using FJ's for Gibraltar would be a waste. It's just such a easily defendable position that you need a lot of firepower concentrated on a small area to break through. Even then the casualties would still be heavy.

True, I think we have enough reseources, so we can launch simultaneous invasions of both Gibraltar and Malta.

Fallschirmjaegers and Italians at Malta, Heer and Spanish at Gibraltar. And the FSJ should be gearing up for Malta anyway, just in case Franco says no.

Keba
07-11-2006, 09:24
True, I think we have enough reseources, so we can launch simultaneous invasions of both Gibraltar and Malta.

Fallschirmjaegers and Italians at Malta, Heer and Spanish at Gibraltar. And the FSJ should be gearing up for Malta anyway, just in case Franco says no.

Franco will say no ... he is not in a position, nor is his country capable of, joining the war. Which is why there are two options, at the moment. One, a conquest of Spain, way too much trouble, but the option is always on the table. Two, convince Franco to allow access through his territory, while remaining neutral.

Malta is a must, it is a staging point between the Gibraltar and Suez.

Rodion Romanovich
07-11-2006, 09:44
Franco will say no ... he is not in a position, nor is his country capable of, joining the war. Which is why there are two options, at the moment. One, a conquest of Spain, way too much trouble, but the option is always on the table. Two, convince Franco to allow access through his territory, while remaining neutral.

Malta is a must, it is a staging point between the Gibraltar and Suez.

He will probably not say no to troop passage, especially if there are no requirements whatsoever of him joining the war. The threats of invasion lest he does not cooperate is a good idea, but shouldn't be used immediately and explicitly in the negotiations, but he should know from the start of the negotiations that he both has a guilt to pay off, that the German forces are strong and capable of an invasion, and that the German forces expect and don't just ask for troop passage. The threat of invasion would IMO severe the relations and most likely also scare the Italians, making the German army look like backstabbers (as Franco is a semi-ally anyway). Keep it back if nothing else works.

Edit: edited horrible misspelling

King Kurt
07-11-2006, 09:49
Glad to see some caution about Gibraltar. I visited there many years ago - the place is a fortress - deep bunkers let into the rock, an approach over a narrow strip of land etc - any assault would be a massacre. Also, it would have to come across Spain, so there would be no element of surprise. I also see an invasion of Spain as out the question - just remember Napoleon. Spain in 1940 is full of men with military experience, so the guerilla resistance would go on for years. The only possible option would be the lease of bases, but Franco will need a lot of persuading.
As an aside, I recall an instance I heard about concerning WW1 - a British regt found out that they had the same battle honour - Gibraltar -on their flag as the german regt facing them in the line. Aparently the Germans had been one of the English Hessian regement used in taking Gib back in the 1700's.
I think our hero should possibly visit the Admiralty to get a naval intellegence view on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the forces in the Med. Then to the FO for a diplomatic view then to Italy to test the waters.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus
07-11-2006, 12:02
The discussion is in a good progress! Excellent!

Just some comments to get you back on the track:

1) You do not have to rate the political feasibility. Just look what are fine places to attack, make a plan and leave the rest to Hitler.

2) Although you are FJ now, you have the lead of this investigation for all branches. Therefore if you think the army should do it, allright!

3) Canaris? He is an admiral, while you are Oberstleutnant! :embarassed:

Here is the result of your voting so far:

Italy: 2 (Demon Archangel, Aggony Duck)
Foreign Office: 3 (Kagemusha, Irish Armenian, Legio)
Spain: 1 (Keba)
Admirality. 1 (KK)

P.S.: Do not forget the eastern med. Might find some nice targets there too. :2thumbsup:

Keba
07-11-2006, 12:52
1) You do not have to rate the political feasibility. Just look what are fine places to attack, make a plan and leave the rest to Hitler.

Well, all plans must come with recommended options.


2) Although you are FJ now, you have the lead of this investigation for all branches. Therefore if you think the army should do it, allright!

The army, the army doesn't have anything to do at the moment. The Kriegsmarine is currently stuck until more subs are built, and the surface fleet is not even remotely a match for the British Home Fleet, not until we can get Tirpitz and the Bismarck on-line (the Graf Zeppelin would also be a useful addition). The Luftwaffe is currently superior to anything else, but is at a standby, waiting for orders which will be fashioned after our report.

About the only thing we can do with the army is loan a few divisions to Italy, and mass on the borders of Spain and Yugoslavia ... and carefully avoid keeping too many troops on the borders with the Soviet Union.

The Kriegsmarine can be employed in the historical manner, raiding ... we cannot match the British Navy openly, cutting them off from supplies is our only option.

The Luftwaffe, we can employ it in the Battle for Britain, hitting British airfields, but not engaging in terror-bombing. Secondly, Africa, they could prove invaluable if deployed in Africa and the Mediterranean, hitting the British fleet, and supporting the Italian forces there. Keep sufficen squadrons to protect our cities, but send the rest off to Africa.

The Eastern Med has excellent targets, but, for the moment, out of our reach. Cyprus is too far out, and any direct naval assault at the Middle East would be a big problem, as it would be met by the British Navy. However, Syria should soon be granted independence from French rule, they are (and were) friendly to Germany, we could use them, send them weapons and convince them to back-stab the British, and support the Iraqi in their coup'd'etat (also known as the Anglo-Iraq war, and the siege of Habannya airbase), a coup that might just land them in our alliance, if successful (Rashid Ali is pro-Nazi, and pro-German sentiments are very strong there). The Palestinians could prove to be valuable allies, they had recently been causing trouble for the Brits in opposition to the Jewish settling of the area.

Conclusion: If we can break through to the Suez, we have won the Middle East, as the locals are likely to turn against the Brits and join the Axis ... if we can break through.

EDIT: Clarification on the coup'd'etat in Iraq added.

AggonyDuck
07-11-2006, 14:18
Btw got to ask from those who know better, didn't most of the British convoys to North Africa go around Africa instead of going through Gibraltar and the Mediterranean?

If so then taking Gibraltar doesn't actually extend British supply routs, but Gibraltar does provide an excellent base for Italian cruisers and German submarines for intercepting British convoys. (and the Royal Navy loses it's only base in the vicinity, thus severely hampering their chances of doing something against Italian convoy raiders)


About Spain; to the British military access is the same as an alliance. I'm pretty sure Franco is aware of this and he knows he cannot afford a costly war. From what I gather Franco is actually willing to join the war, but the cost of getting him to join would be rather immense. Also may I ask, does Germany need another weak ally?

The more I think about Gibraltar and it's role, the more I start to think that it is not worth taking. Only Malta is supplied through Gibraltar and without Malta, Gibraltar suddenly loses a big deal of it's importance as a supply rout.
It is still a well positioned strategic base for naval squadrons, but nothing else really. Thus I think we should actually start concentrating our efforts to the Eastern Mediterranean, because it is there that the Mediterranean theater is won.

Egypt, the Suez and the oilfields of Iraq should be our primary objective, not Gibraltar.

Rodion Romanovich
07-11-2006, 14:33
IIRC there were transports from Gib to Malta (plenty of Hurricanes moved there by a carrier most of the way, then they flew the last bit), and IIRC operation crusader sent their tanks through the Med. Taking Gib indeed extends their supply routes, and forces them to either pull back forces from the Med or risk encirclement of both ships and land forces, or move everything to Alexandria, or try to retake Gib. But they haven't got the advantage of a friendly Franco that can allow them land access, so a direct naval invasion is their only option - an amphibious operation after a very long transportation distance, i.e. very risky and difficult to succeed in.

DemonArchangel
07-11-2006, 14:40
Egypt, the Suez and the oilfields of Iraq should be our primary objective, not Gibraltar.

I agree if only because currently, Gibraltar is waaay too hard to take right now, and depends on way too many variables falling into place correctly, especially since one of the variables, Franco, is rather reluctant about actually getting into the war. Also, Gibraltar seems like Iwo Jima, what with the mountains, the caves and small area that would require a ridiculous number of casualties to take.

Malta would make a good springboard and forward air/naval base for an attack into the Eastern Mediterranean, and it can be taken RIGHT NOW. And as we all know, hitting hard, and hitting suddenly in warfare is a positive thing, especially if we give British intelligence (which appears to be rather good) as little forewarning as possible.

Keba
07-11-2006, 15:00
I agree if only because currently, Gibraltar is waaay too hard to take right now, and depends on way too many variables falling into place correctly, especially since one of the variables, Franco, is rather reluctant about actually getting into the war. Also, Gibraltar seems like Iwo Jima, what with the mountains, the caves and small area that would require a ridiculous number of casualties to take.

Malta would make a good springboard and forward air/naval base for an attack into the Eastern Mediterranean, and it can be taken RIGHT NOW. And as we all know, hitting hard, and hitting suddenly in warfare is a positive thing, especially if we give British intelligence (which appears to be rather good) as little forewarning as possible.

Nothing prevents us from doing both, the army can handle Gibraltar, while a paratrooper assault from Sicily handles Malta, which is, at the moment, poorly defended.

Convoys did go through Gibraltar commonly, usually straight to Malta, then from Malta to Egypt ... capturing Gibraltar would cut off those convoys and supplies would have to go around Africa, exposing them to a rather long shooting gallery that could very well be lined with subs. Secondly, one of the largest problems was that Germany could not send naval forces to aid Italy ... despite the fairly small and weak Kriegsmarine, the ships would be invaluable to the Italians in the long run. There were numerous attempts by Germany to sneak U-boats through Gibraltar, nearly all of them ended with a sunk U-boat.

Spain is not weak ... it has been weakened by the Civil War, and there is rebel activity there, but it would prove exceptionally useful if it joins, they have a large number of veteran soldiers and skilled officers which would be invaluable during the war, however, like I said, granting military access would be best for both sides. While the British might see it as them joining the Axis, keep in mind, Franco can easily claim threat of invasion by the Axis and get out of the way.

AggonyDuck
07-11-2006, 15:02
As far as Gibraltar is concerned it only has one weakness. It doesn't have proper fresh water reserves and relies heavily on rainwater for their supply of water. Without water a fortress doesn't survive a long time.

But the problem with Gibraltar is that it requires Spain to join the axis, which I personally think, would be a more of a burden than an asset to our side. Who do you think would have to supply and support the Spaniards? :no:

DemonArchangel
07-11-2006, 15:44
Nothing prevents us from doing both, the army can handle Gibraltar, while a paratrooper assault from Sicily handles Malta, which is, at the moment, poorly defended.


Yes, I strongly believe that both should be done, but Malta should be done as quickly as possible, because we have the resources to take Malta right now, so we should do it while the defenses on the island are still at a low level. However, it would take time to build up the artillery and the blockade needed to take Gibraltar, which would waste valuable resources and last too long.

Also, you have to remember. Hitler is a neurotic crazy man. We have to appease said neurotic crazy man by getting successful operations under our wing, and Malta seems to be the best place to do it right now. Dropping on Gibraltar would only result in needless casualties and greatly limit FSJ useage in the future.

Rodion Romanovich
07-11-2006, 15:45
@AggonyDuck: Military access rather than making them join would solve that problem IMO.

For actually taking Gib, here's my first rough draft for a plan:
- phase one: build railway tracks directed towards Gibraltar a bit inland before moving any troops through Spain. At this phase of the plan the military access must still be a secret
- phase two: send one or more railway guns through Spain together with the main force of infantry and tanks, and land planes at Spanish airfields. Next the railway tracks built will come into use...
- phase three: artillery bombard Gibraltar with the railguns and/or other heavy artillery that can be hidden far inland and difficult for the British to find, spot and hit back with ship or ground shells. If Gibraltar really is such a high rock that dominates the landscape and is difficult to run uphill towards in an attack, it should be easy to provide decent spotting for covering the rock (and ships beyond it) in smoke shells. It doesn't need to be fully covered, just enough to annoy and cause confusion and limit their sight. Using an artillery "carpet bombing" of smoke shells would fulfil this goal even with inaccurate long-distance heavy artillery.
- phase four: when the rock is blinded enough, send in heavy bombers. IIRC, AA guns of the time weren't radar controlled so the smoke should blind them quite effectively and the bombers shouldn't be in too much trouble. If the bombers could drop magnetic mines over the ships too it would be even better.
- phase five: when the bombers have done their work, and the heavy artillery keeps the smoke screen intact, lighter high-precision artillery moves forward and starts a more exact bombardment when the enemy ship turrets are too blinded to fire back accurately. Remember that if the harbor is well covered in smoke, the ships will have very great difficulties navigating out of the harbor, so we can expect limited returned fire from the ships in harbor for at least an hour. And if our bombers and artillery could also score some explosive shell hits on the enemy ships that would be a big bonus. In this phase, we also move in Stuka divebombers for higher-precision bombing of the ships in the harbor, and fortifications on the rock. During this phase, the smoke cover will be improved by the lighter artillery and so should make Stuka attacks more feasible (they fly lower than bombers and are otherwise easier to hit with AA, IIRC).
- phase six: when the higher-precision light artillery and Stukas have bombarded the ships and the rock for a while, and the artillery has created a more exact and accurate smoke screen than the heavy artillery could, the infantry starts moving in. The rock is blinded by the smoke and the infantry won't show up on radars. The infantry carries with it poison gas shells, handgrenades, flamethrowers and hollow charges to deal with the bunkers of the fort. They should also have SMGs, a possibly one or two MG34s (in the light MG role with bipod) could be put down in the fort corridors if needed).
- phase seven: the infantry can call in support from a limited force of tanks if it becomes necessary (against enemy tanks - if any - in the area)

AggonyDuck
07-11-2006, 16:32
I still believe that Military access and joining the war is the same thing for Britain.

Rodion Romanovich
07-11-2006, 16:39
Well, Britain isn't in a position to damage Spain much besides by naval actions, but the Spanish are already suffering from the blockades as it is. Also, if the Spanish keep claiming their neutrality, Britain will look bad if they start attacking Spain (which they can't do that much anyway). Spain could even win points by claiming they allowed military access to Gibraltar to break the blockade against Spanish civilians, not to specifically help the Germans. Finally, remember that a victory in Gibraltar would be a huge blow for the British and would strengthen those of the Americans that are against joining the war.

Keba
07-11-2006, 17:11
I still believe that Military access and joining the war is the same thing for Britain.

For Britain, it might be, but for the world it would not be such. Remember, we are already at war with Britain. Franco caves and grants military access through Spanish territory ... Britain, even if it considers that Spain has joined the war, would be in a tough spot internationally ... if they declare war on Spain, it would cause massive problems for the British diplomatically.

Secondly, there is little they can do about it, once Gibraltar is under siege ... an amphibious invasion would require a lot of forces, and even if succesfull, the terrain in Spain is exceptionally difficult, making the advance slow down to a crawl (it would be even worse than the Battle of the Bulge).

Kagemusha
07-11-2006, 17:30
If you guys looked up the link to German plan Felix to take Gibraltar.Those couple British battalions couldnt hold it up against force the size the plan suggests.About transportation through neutral country.Sweden actually allowed Germans to use her railroad network to transport German troops to Finland and it didnt have any effect on her relations towards the Allies.
We have to remeber that Britain is at the moment almost on her knees and the last thing they need at the moment is another enemy from Spain.
Taking Gibraltar wouldnt be a furious hit against Britains economy,but Strategically if the British cant move their fleet to reinforce either the Mediterranian or home fleet,it will give us a great Strategig edge against their most leathel weapon at the moment,the Royal Navy.

Rodion Romanovich
07-11-2006, 18:02
Maps of Gibraltar:
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/gi.htm
http://www.dotcom.gi/map/wholemap.htm
Photo of Gibraltar (at top of page):
http://www.dotcom.gi/map/

@Kagemusha: Operation Felix indeed seems a lot like my plan with smoke shells and overwhelming artillery and air bombardment forming the crucial part of the attack. But I also like the additional ideas proposed in Operation Felix - the harassing submarines and the disguised Brandenburgers entering the harbor in small boats trying to look like sailors from sunk British ships. Pretty fun to see I came up with such a similar plan ~:)

IrishArmenian
07-11-2006, 21:40
If the Luftwaffe can weark havoc on the British ships in the Suez canal, we may be able to hold that and cut off all enemy naval action in the Mediteranean after our large assualt on Gibraltar that should go something like:
Mass bombardment, by the Luftawaffe and Navy ,it will keep the British unaware to what we will do and keep their heads down. The FJ will hit the ground after hours of shelling, and regardless of how large the enemy bunkers are, the British will have many dead/wounded. We drop the FJ on top and bring in a few tanks, transported by Sea, just to make sure everything goes our way. I doubt that the British can hold off against unexpected armour, no doubt the famed German Tanks. From there, we get ground infantry to Gibraltar, and have them dig in. The FJ will be taken out so we can fill in their gaps of people and plan to use them in a different area. We'll need Canaris' help to block the Suez Canal and to Shell Gibraltar.

DemonArchangel
07-11-2006, 22:20
If the Luftwaffe can weark havoc on the British ships in the Suez canal, we may be able to hold that and cut off all enemy naval action in the Mediteranean after our large assualt on Gibraltar that should go something like:
Mass bombardment, by the Luftawaffe and Navy ,it will keep the British unaware to what we will do and keep their heads down. The FJ will hit the ground after hours of shelling, and regardless of how large the enemy bunkers are, the British will have many dead/wounded. We drop the FJ on top and bring in a few tanks, transported by Sea, just to make sure everything goes our way. I doubt that the British can hold off against unexpected armour, no doubt the famed German Tanks. From there, we get ground infantry to Gibraltar, and have them dig in. The FJ will be taken out so we can fill in their gaps of people and plan to use them in a different area. We'll need Canaris' help to block the Suez Canal and to Shell Gibraltar.


The British fleet is at Alexandria. In any case, we don't exactly know where the bunkers are, they're dug in very deep and they're well sheltered against bombing, there's basically no room for tanks, and in any case, the Germans used maneuver and coordination to offset the fact that their tanks actually weren't that good, and since you can't really break the bunkers with gunfire, they'll have to be cleared manually, which would result in disproportionately high casualties.

Better leave this to the Heer, and use the FSJ for Malta.

IrishArmenian
07-12-2006, 07:28
The British fleet is at Alexandria. In any case, we don't exactly know where the bunkers are, they're dug in very deep and they're well sheltered against bombing, there's basically no room for tanks, and in any case, the Germans used maneuver and coordination to offset the fact that their tanks actually weren't that good, and since you can't really break the bunkers with gunfire, they'll have to be cleared manually, which would result in disproportionately high casualties.

Better leave this to the Heer, and use the FSJ for Malta.
I was unaware. New plan! FJ takes Malta (JUMP WITH YOUR GUNS!!!) and we let those sad little gruts get butchered by the Britts. And they say we could easily win the war... We do not (not cannot) have Naval superiority, so it looks like we will have to do almost everything by air. This is why I consider myself a better at tactics than strategy. I will go in depth later. Thanks for the help DA.

Franconicus
07-12-2006, 09:37
Italy: 2 (Demon Archangel, Aggony Duck)
Foreign Office: 3 (Kagemusha, Irish Armenian, Legio)
Spain: 1 (Keba)
Admirality. 1 (KK)

Therefore we go to the Foreign Office next?

King Kurt
07-12-2006, 09:48
I think we are at risk of getting too involved in detail and are missing the broader strategic picture. Our hero is currently reviewing the whole of the scene in the Med, not planning a specific attack. He needs to review all potential targets and rate their strategic importance and potential impact on the English. More importantly he needs to assess our allies - both their military ability and their willingness - or otherwise - to allow our forces to act in co-operation with their forces or use their bases. Working out which weapons to put in the containers for the para assault on Malta is of little use if El Duce in a fit of arragance will not let us use his airfields. The situation with Spain and soon Vichy France is even more difficult.

So let us carefully and quietly gather information, gather a full diplomatic picture then identify the key strategic targets for furthuring our cause and harming the English. Our focus should be on the middle east and oil, not the hot spots we know from our knowledge of WW2. We are creating a new history here, not tinkering with the existing.So patience my friends, the detailed planning comes later.:2thumbsup:

King Kurt
07-12-2006, 09:52
Italy: 2 (Demon Archangel, Aggony Duck)
Foreign Office: 3 (Kagemusha, Irish Armenian, Legio)
Spain: 1 (Keba)
Admirality. 1 (KK)

Therefore we go to the Foreign Office next?
Seems like a good idea - but couldn't he pop in the Admiralty on the way!!!:2thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich
07-12-2006, 10:19
yes, Foreign Office and Admiralty can both give valuable information and since it's close by it has short travel distances and doesn't waste our valuable time. I think

Rodion Romanovich
07-12-2006, 10:41
I think we are at risk of getting too involved in detail and are missing the broader strategic picture. Our hero is currently reviewing the whole of the scene in the Med, not planning a specific attack. He needs to review all potential targets and rate their strategic importance and potential impact on the English. More importantly he needs to assess our allies - both their military ability and their willingness - or otherwise - to allow our forces to act in co-operation with their forces or use their bases. Working out which weapons to put in the containers for the para assault on Malta is of little use if El Duce in a fit of arragance will not let us use his airfields. The situation with Spain and soon Vichy France is even more difficult.

So let us carefully and quietly gather information, gather a full diplomatic picture then identify the key strategic targets for furthuring our cause and harming the English. Our focus should be on the middle east and oil, not the hot spots we know from our knowledge of WW2. We are creating a new history here, not tinkering with the existing.So patience my friends, the detailed planning comes later.:2thumbsup:
I agree, but I also tend to think that at least some rough attempt at a plan for how to approach a certain target is useful for approximating how much troops it will occupy for how long, which logistical requirements are needed, which diplomatical actions are needed, - and most importantly, measuring the feasibility of success of the specific operation. I think it has become clear from the reasoning above that both Malta and Gibraltar could be taken with a minimum of casualties and with extreme strategical effect, IF the diplomatical requirements are fulfilled. It has also become clear that taking the Suez channel probably requires a successful full-scale advance into Egypt first. I don't think it was a waste of time to analyze these things before proceeding to the Foreign Office. Now we know that Spain and Italy are probably the most interesting subjects.

One thing I think we should however analyze a bit more first is the feasibility of successfully invading the Middle East. I doubt the Middle east can be taken without first destroying most of the British Mediterranean fleet, and conquering key areas linking up own territory and enemy territory. I think it might be in order to discuss with the Italians how to divide the possible targets that can be conquered in the eastern Mediterranean. Ideally, the Italians should accept German claims to the entire Middle east all the way south to the Suez channel, plus German control over eastern Greece, Crete and Cyprus while the Italians get everything west of the Suez, western Greece, Albania and Yugoslavia.

King Kurt
07-12-2006, 14:52
The apparent importance of Gib and Malta are partially due to our benefit of hindsight. Malta was vital as a base to attack convoys from Italy to north Africa and Gib was vital as a base to support malta. Currently nothing is happening in North Africa, so the importance of Gib and Malta are diminished. Of course malta is well placed in mid Med but so is Sicily.

With regards to the Middle east, there are only realy 2 ways to get there - via Asia Minor or Egypt/Sinai. The Asia minor route means getting across Turkey - I can't see us having a sea landing in say Syria - so let us look at those diplomatic issues. The Egypt route means working with the Italians - who will be very reluctant to get involved until they need our help badly due to Il Duce's pride. Perhaps we need to wait for an Italian fall before we make detailed plans.

We must not forget our own strategic needs - let us ensure the Romanian oil fields are secure and keep any enemy airfields as far away as possible. A bit of Balkan expansion would not go amiss.:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
07-12-2006, 16:47
*Snip*

No, there will be a North African campaign anyway, because it's simply easier to get to the oilfields that way, and because the Italians already have resources there, and they need to protect Libya. Also, setting up an air base and a naval station on Malta and capturing Gibraltar essentially bottles up the British fleet at Alexandria, preventing them from getting to home waters to defend the British Home Islands, not to mention the fact that British convoys would be forced to move around Africa, thus stretching their supply lines and making it easier for our submarines to pick off their merchant ships.

About Romania: Good idea, let's see what we can do in that respect.

Moving on, if we're going to take a trip to the Admirality, try to see if they can provide some naval support etc. for Malta and the rest of the Med. and try to see if they can capture enough of the French Fleet to supplement the Italian navy.

Rodion Romanovich
07-12-2006, 16:50
I think it's correct that the importance of Malta probably isn't well known at this time, but I think the importance of Gibraltar is quite clear already at this time. The importance of Romanian oilfields is also obviously important, as any way into the Middle east (before destroying the British Med fleet or getting the Italians to cooperate) would be tricky at best at this time, and Romania has the most closely located oilfields.

Kagemusha
07-12-2006, 19:13
I wouldnt worry about Romania.SU has been really agressive towards Romania.And its basicly in our pocket already.We have to get Romania tied up on us with politics,not by military means. If Soviet Union attacks Eastern Europe,it will atleast pretty much force US to revaluate its attitude towards us and Soviet Union.If not.SU will provide us the Oil we need with Romania.~;)

IrishArmenian
07-12-2006, 20:49
Yes, but he could chat with the Admiral on the way there, if he was said "Admiral, I do not have a car, could your driver give me a ride?" But yes, foreign offices!

Keba
07-12-2006, 21:14
Well, look at it like this ... even though, at that time, Malta isn't considered important it would make an excellent demonstration of the fearsome Fallschimjaeger corps of the Third Reich ... it is poorly defended, allied airbases are within a short distance, and it is in a very good position to serve as a staging ground for the Afrika Korps, should they be formed. Plus, it will get us on Hitler's good side, the guy likes victories, the more terrifying to the enemy, the better.

The overland route to the Middle East would be troublesome ... while I have no doubt that Istanbul could fall to the German army, the problem is the Bosphorus ... it is terribly easily defendable, plus, the terrain does not suit our greatest advantage, the Panzer divisions ... North Africa on the other hand is straight as a board, has enough space to manouver, and is already held by a nation we are at war with.

IrishArmenian
07-13-2006, 05:25
I think the farthest place that the German army could manuever and fite well is Istanbul. After that the land becomes to different and varied. They would try to move through Anatolia and get slottered by resitance, and keep marching into the Caucases where the same thing would happen with the added disadvantage of the high altitude.
Keba is right, strong-arm tiny Malta with the FJ and Hitler will crap his pants with glee.
Let's face it, we are flexible, but no army since Rome has ever been able to dominate the Mediteranean. Most of that was technology and discipline. We have to be the best in both those categories and it doesn't look like we are. Plus, the Romans recruited Oksillaries (spelling?) who knew the land and were great fiters and our conquered lands hate us. Everywhere there is land that could slow down and possibly kill our men.
Militart Access with Spain is not a good idea. As soon as we try to move through the Pyhrenees, the Basques will blow troop transport trains/trucks and supply trains/trucks up. They do not like anyone on their land without a damm good reason, and "Attacking the English" is not a good one. They are another culture who has been guerilla fiting for their whole existence.
The Catalons might also be a thorn in our side. Need we bring up they are the descendants of people who had the Almogavars- an elite Javelin throwing soldier that was equally deadly with his cleaver like knife and by themselves held off many Turkish assaults (until the Byzantine emperor no longer paid them, and they packed up and left) also used by the HRE I think. Those soldiers were famed for their ambushing tactics. Now weapons may grow useless, but tactics never do.

Franconicus
07-13-2006, 07:33
What kind of information do you want from Admiralty?

King Kurt
07-13-2006, 09:34
Besides the obvious technical assesment, we would need a view on the possible tactics and the professional ability of all the navies present.

On Malta - do not assume it will be a walk-over - I would estimate the garrison in Malta to be stronger than that in Crete. As an aside I read a book many years ago which included a section on crete. It was about a squadron of Swordfish who were based at Malmeme airfield. They could not understand why the germans kept air reconing the airfield to find out its defences as they hid the airfield's defence - 12 rifles!!! - in a hut.:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel
07-13-2006, 14:41
Besides the obvious technical assesment, we would need a view on the possible tactics and the professional ability of all the navies present.

On Malta - do not assume it will be a walk-over - I would estimate the garrison in Malta to be stronger than that in Crete. As an aside I read a book many years ago which included a section on crete. It was about a squadron of Swordfish who were based at Malmeme airfield. They could not understand why the germans kept air reconing the airfield to find out its defences as they hid the airfield's defence - 12 rifles!!! - in a hut.:2thumbsup:

Although it wouldn't be a walkover, it would sure as heck be easier than dropping on Gibraltar and prematurely reenacting Pavlov's House or Iwo Jima. And I rather doubt that the defenses at Malta are stronger than those at Crete. Even if this was the case, it wouldn't be that bad, and at this point, the Italian fleet is still intact enough to support us.

Also, Franc, I want to know what Kurt wants to know, and I also want to know our chances of capturing the French fleet.

Franconicus
07-13-2006, 14:57
Although it wouldn't be a walkover, it would sure as heck be easier than dropping on Gibraltar and prematurely reenacting Pavlov's House or Iwo Jima. And I rather doubt that the defenses at Malta are stronger than those at Crete.
Maybe you should note that Crete is still Greece. There are no Commonwealth troops on the island.


Also, Franc, I want to know what Kurt wants to know, and I also want to know our chances of capturing the French fleet.
This is certainly part of the armistice negotiations. I do not think that France will stand longer than a week. Then you should know about this :2thumbsup:

By the way: Do you want the ships or would you prefer the French to have them? Better think twice about it!:sweatdrop:

King Kurt
07-13-2006, 16:34
By the way: Do you want the ships or would you prefer the French to have them? Better think twice about it!:sweatdrop:

Now this raises an issue - if we pursue getting the ships transfered to us, then they will up and away before we can do anything about them and they will probably end up with the English. If we look for them to decomission or lay up in port, they will be a problem to the English as they will be constantly worried that they might come to us in due course. There is an arguement that we should seek to get them mothballed as opposed to handed to us as strategically, we will benefit more in the long run. Perhaps we could plan a coup de main with the FJ to capture the main elements of the fleet - could be risky, but the rewards are great. All food for thought!!:2thumbsup:

Franconicus
07-14-2006, 14:10
Chapter 5 – In the Waiting Loop
Berlin, June 18th-19th, 1940

The Abwehr answered the request so quickly that Ramcke decides to try his luck once more and to stop by at the Auswärtiges Amt. However, his luck has left him. For hours he tries to find someone willing to help him. At last he strands at an officer who promises him to forward his request to the right place. Someone would contact him later.

Ramcke leaves the building a bit frustrated. German bureaucracy is thoroughly, but often very slow.

To save the day Ramcke decides to drive to the OKM (Supreme Command of the Navy) at the Tirpitzufer. However, he has to find out that all departments are engaged with the preparation of the campaign against Britain. Admiral Dönitz is not at Berlin. Ramcke finally manages it to get a phone connection to him. Ramcke explains him his new mission. Dönitz tells Ramcke that the Battle of the Atlantic will soon enter a new phase. However, he promises to write an essay about the view of the Kriegsmarine as soon as possible.

As nothing else remains to be done he goes back to the RLM, to talk with his new assistant and to move into his new office and peruses the latest news:

On the Western Front... The German advance continues inexorably. The 7th Panzer Division takes Cherbourg, 5th Panzer Division occupies Brest. Among other towns captured are Le Mans, Briare, Le Creusot, Belfort, Dijon and Colmar.
Over Germany... The RAF bombs Hamburg and Bremen.
From London... General de Gaulle, as yet comparatively unknown to the majority of his countrymen, makes a radio address urging the French to fight on; saying that only a battle and not the whole war has been lost.

In the evening he finally receives a call from the Auswärtiges Amt. He is told that Secretary of State Ernst Freiherr von Weizsäcker will receive him on July 20th to discuss the situation of the abutters.

Therefore Ramcke has to spend another day in his office. At least he receives the report of Dönitz. It is short and contains only a few basics:
The Kriegsmarine has no ships in the Mediterranean Sea besides a couple of merchant ships. Due to the fact that both Suez and Gibraltar are controlled by the British there is no option to send surface ships. In principle, submarines can pass the isthmus of Gibraltar. However, the Mediterranean is not the ideal playground for submarines and all German submarines are engaged in the Atlantic Ocean.

However, the Italian Navy is strong. It has more submarines than any other country. Currently there are negotiations about missions of Italian submarines in the Atlantic. Furthermore Italy has six modern or modernized battleships. Therefore the Italian fleet is able to take on to the English navy. A handicap is the lack of radar on the ships. However, this can be compensated by air reconnaissance. The Italian air force is numerous and has some modern models.

The Kriegsmarine could support the operations at the Mediterranean Theatre with some flanking maneuvers:


Temporarily submarines could operate westwards of Gibraltar to hinder British fleet movements.
The FW200 could do some reconnaissance missions in this area. Additionally, it could do mining missions against the Suez as soon as appropriate air ports are available.
The Kriegsmarine could do a ‘red herring’ to divert the Gibraltar battleship force into the Atlantic. These kinds of operations, however, have a long lead time.
Although the Kriegsmarine cannot do much to support any Mediterranean operation it has big interests here. The seizure of Gibraltar would supply the Kriegsmarine with superb basis for the surface and submarine ships. Additionally the control of Northwestern Africa including Dakar is aspiring.

However, possible reactions of the enemy should be taken into account, especially the seizure of the Atlantic Islands, the Canary Islands and the Azores and Madeira. This has to be avoided without fail.

On the other end of the Ocean the seizure of Suez should result in the occupation of Aden. Then the Axis navies and air forces could operate in the Indian Ocean and even threaten India itself.

Ramcke has expected more, especially more technical details. On the other side he has to be thankful that Dönitz replied so fast. Now Ramcke has to wait until tomorrow. Will the Auswärtiges Amt give him more information for his mission?

IrishArmenian
07-15-2006, 03:08
1. Have the subs harass the British fleet. That would not be a huge problem to the British, but a large annoyance that could make their commanders impatient and do something stupid.

AggonyDuck
07-15-2006, 21:27
No, there will be a North African campaign anyway, because it's simply easier to get to the oilfields that way, and because the Italians already have resources there, and they need to protect Libya. Also, setting up an air base and a naval station on Malta and capturing Gibraltar essentially bottles up the British fleet at Alexandria, preventing them from getting to home waters to defend the British Home Islands, not to mention the fact that British convoys would be forced to move around Africa, thus stretching their supply lines and making it easier for our submarines to pick off their merchant ships.


Actually only a fraction of the convoys to Egypt went through Gibraltar and these were usually high priority shipments that were escorted rather heavily. Usually the Brits avoided sending supplies through the Straits of Sicily due to the proximity to Italian air and naval forces. Just take a look at the losses suffered by the convoys to Malta to understand how dangerous the convoy route past Sicily is.

Gibraltar itself doesn't have much influence over the campaign fought in the eastern mediterranean, but the loss of Gibraltar makes a allied intervention in the western mediterranean an impossibility (no Operation Torch) and Gibraltar is an excellent base for us for operations at the Atlantic Ocean.

But as I've said before said invading Gibraltar means a Spanish war entry, whether we intend it or not. Also the Admiralty is hinting that the Brits have some sort of plans prepared for seizing the Canaries if Gibraltar is lost.

About Malta; Italians failed to take it early on due to the fact that it was viewed unimportant, not due to it's meager defences.

Franconicus
07-17-2006, 09:23
I am currently writing the next chapter, about the Foreign Office. It will be more comprehensive, I hope.

Until then, are you familiar with the notion: `non-belligerent`?

Rodion Romanovich
07-17-2006, 09:59
yes, I disagree with AggonyDuck in the matter of Gibraltar - I don't think a Spanish war entry is necessary. For example the Swedish military access for 2entire German divisions didn't force the Swedish to break their neutrality, even though that was at a time when Britain was stronger than it was in middle 1940 which is the current time of the Interactive. Spain can always make an official statement of "disliking the incursion" and not take part in any military action after that to show their neutrality. The thing is, if Britain declares war on Spain over the military access, and can't reach Spain with military actions, Spain will not need to make any defensive actions that could confirm and strengthen the appearance of a hostile attitude, and if they keep claiming their neutrality, and it's admitted and confirmed by German statements, then the British will be the ones to look bad if they keep claiming Spain is at war.

Gibraltar would be really useful to hold. The British high-priority convoys were after all some of the most important key convoys in the war in North Africa, for instance a huge convoy of tanks for operation crusader. The longer supply routes will not hurt oil and food supplies, but will give the British a slower reaction time to shortages of military supplies such as equipment and reinforcements. Gibraltar is also a convenient stop for convoys going around Africa. Also there's the prospect of severely damaging or sinking plenty of British ships - if we're lucky we'll even be able to take over some of the ships almost intact. There's also the prospect of being able to get submarines into the Mediterranean, and the prospect of covering the Italian fleet's flank so it can effectively put an end to British control in North Africa and the rest of the Mediterranean - perhaps with the result that the Italian fleet in return can be convinced to send some capital ships to help dealing with the British home fleet later on. After British control over the Mediterranean is lost there's also the prospect of going into the Middle east and be able to get within reach of British bases in India. Most of the advantages of holding Gibraltar aren't lost even if the British invade the Canaries in response to losing Gibraltar. Doing so will give them diplomatical problems. Since the Canaries are much further south, it'll still keep the German submarine route into the Mediterranean open. Not likely, but possibly, German air bases in Morocco could be used to bombard British positions in those islands, maybe enabling the destruction of further British fleet units. The British empire will in a matter of between a few months and a year and a half be cut off into two parts - one in South east Asia, and one in Britain. The result would be that the British will either have to give up India and the last remnants of their empire outside Britain (which would perhaps make many British more open to accepting peace if they get promises of keeping their colonies in return, or at the very least lead to a British fleet concentrated around their homelands in defense and without much possibilities for offensive anywhere), or keep sending men and equipment convoys there over extremely long supply routes, which are ideal for the German submarines to harass.

AggonyDuck
07-17-2006, 12:24
If getting Gibraltar is as easy as it sounds, then why didn't the Germans do it? Why did they choose against it?

Keba
07-17-2006, 12:58
If getting Gibraltar is as easy as it sounds, then why didn't the Germans do it? Why did they choose against it?

They wanted to, but Hitler, being his usual self, demanded that Franco enters the war, rather than give right of passage. Secondly, it was a different grand strategy ... Germany chose to take the air war path, forcing Britain to surrender not by hitting it's exposed and vulnerable Empire, but rather, the Home Islands, as it turned out, that was a mistake (not in itself, but rather, the choice of a terror bombing campaign, as opposed to the airbase bomabardment that they preferred earlier in the battle). And, finally, Hitler's insistance on Barbarossa robbed the proposed invasion of resources.

So, the world has to be thankful that Hitler was an idiot, or else we'd either be speaking German, dying in labour camps ... or dying of radiation (in the case of US citizens).

Rodion Romanovich
07-17-2006, 13:32
Yes, Hitler demanded France to enter the war, something that Franco obviously couldn't accept, so in response to Hitler's suggestion he made demands impossible to meet: around 500k tons of grain, complete supply of fuel and equipment for the Spanish army. Hitler seems to have gotten angry with Franco on a personal level too and was very reluctant about meeting him again after the discussion, which took place in late October 1940.

Franconicus
07-17-2006, 13:38
Chapter 6 – The ‘Auswärtiges Amt’
Berlin, June 20th, 1940

At last time has come for the meeting at the Auswärtige Amt. A secretary leads Ramcke straight to the office of Secretary of State Ernst Freiherr von Weizsäcker. There, a man at the age of about 60 is waiting for him. He is in plain clothes, but the pin at his jacket shows that he is member of the SS.
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, you asked for information about the Mediterranean Sea sates?” His right hand invites Ramcke to take a seat.
Ramcke sits down: “Yes, Secretary of State! I am writing an expose about the Mediterranean Sea for the RLM and I could use some information about the political situation there. I thought that the Auswärtige Amt could ...”
“Could give you this information. Well, I will try to do my best to give you an overview. First of all, let me tell you that the situation is complex, especially at the Balkans. Do not expect to learn every aspect in one meeting. It took me years to understand the basics. Additionally, the situation is changing rapidly. The German victory over the allied armies blew the old order away.
Let me start with Italy, our ally in the Mediterranean Sea. Mussolini did not want to get involved into the war. On the other side he could not stay aside. Therefore he created the state `non-belligerent`. This means, as you may know, that Italy supported us without being actively involved in the war. Our victory made Mussolini change his mind. I guess he realized that he had to enter war soon or he would get nothing of the prey. Therefore Italy declared war at 10th of June.
Spain - Franco is in a similar situation as Mussolini. He owns Germany a lot, last but not least a lot of money - and he would like to get Gibraltar and a big part of the French colonies. He knows that he can get it only if he enters the war on our side. Yet he is hesitating. He is waiting for the right moment when he can join us without risk and disadvantages. Spain declared itself as `non-belligerent` at 12th of June.
Portugal – You may know that Portugal and England have a long friendship. However, the German victory over France had its effect on this friendship, too. Our ambassador had a long meeting with Salazar. Salazar realizes that the European order will be rearranged with elimination of England. Portugal seems to be trying to leave the English sphere of interest. Salazar suggested an alliance with Spain. This could either be the first step to get into the German sphere of interest or an attempt to keep independent. Salazar assured Franco, that Portugal would stay neutral in case the Spanish attack Gibraltar.
Now let us talk about Southeast Europe. As I said before the situation there is complex. All countries there have either claims on territories of their neighbors or have to fear those claims. Now that France and England lost their influence there most of these countries are looking for a new protector to enforce their claims or to protect their territory against any claims.
Hungary – claims territory in Romania and hopes that Germany will support it.
Bulgaria – same situation as Hungary. They want to get territory from the Romanians, too. Additionally they try to get access to the isthmus.
Romania – needs protection against the territorial claims of Russia, Bulgaria and Hungary. What makes this country so interesting is the oil production. Germany depends on this oil and has to secure the supply. On the other hand the Russians would love to get access o the oil fields, too.
Yugoslavia – The country has different ethnic groups with different interest. It is threatened by Italy that wants to control the Adriatic Sea and the whole Mediterranean Sea. Unlike the other countries Yugoslavia tries to find support in Moscow. Yugoslavia may be willing to subordinate under German leadership. However, it will not co-operate with the Italians.
Greece – Like Yugoslavia Greece is threatened by the Italian lust for expansion. It is allied with England. However, Greece tries to avoid any conflict with Germany. They hope that Germany can prevent Italy from an invasion.
Turkey – Turkey has an alliance with Britain, too. When the war started, they stayed `non-belligerent`. After the German victory Turkey tries to get closer to Germany. I had a meeting with the ambassador Gerede two days ago. We will sign a trade agreement in July that will break the English trade monopoly. Turkey is threatened by the Soviet Union. The Russians pretend to have claims on the northern part of Turkey and they want to get control over the isthmus. Bulgaria is also a threat. Additionally England would use any chance to get control over the isthmus, too.
Britain is not strong enough to support its allies on the Balkans. However, it tries to build a front against Germany there. It advises Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey to make a military pact and to co-ordinate the defense. Until now these efforts had no success.
The German increase of power influences even regions outside of Europe. For example Afghanistan; Minister Abdul Majid Khan offered us his support. He told us that his government could activate the tribes in Northern India and so hinder Indian troops from shipping to Europe. In return he asked for military equipment and a guarantee against Russia. He also said that Afghanistan and its allies, the nations of Iran, Iraq and Turkey are willing to co-ordinate their policy with Berlin. The Iraqi Prime Minister Rashid Ali el Ghailani also showed his interest in a German-Arabian co-operation.”
Ramcke would like to discuss some issues in detail, but Weizsäcker breaks the meeting off:
“Oberstleutnant, I think this is all I can give you at the moment. Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop would like to meet you, too.”
The two men leave Weizsäcker’s office and go to the bureau of the Foreign Minister. They have to wait a quarter of an hour until they can enter.
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke! Welcome at the Foreign Office! I hope that von Weizsäcker could give you the information you need!”
“Yes, Minister, he could! Thank you very much for your kindness and cooperativeness!”
“Surely we would have been able to support you more if we knew more about your mission.”
Ramcke hesitates for a moment. His mission is secret; however, Ribbentrop is member of the government. He decides to answer evasive:

“The RLM is just trying to get an overview over the political situation of the Mediterranean Sea. As you know the Italians are supposed to start their operations soon and we wonder how we can support them.”
“You are member of the Fallschirmjäger, I see. This formation, though still very new, has an excellent reputation.”
“Thank you, Minister. I think the boys did very good jobs so far. I have to admit, however, that I just joined them and that I have no share in their success.”
Ribbentrop invites Ramcke and Weizsäcker to sit down. The secretary serves coffee and soft drinks.
After she had left the room, Ribbentrop starts talking again:

“I assume that von Weizsäcker pointed the dramatic overthrow caused by our victory over France to you. Our Führer has outmaneuvered all our enemies and now we can rearrange Europe, to put it bluntly, the world. You can imagine that our Office has a million things to do now. We will be the architects of this new world order, all countries that had been following France or Britain are now coming to us. Yes, Oberstleutnant, times are changing!”
He looks at Ramcke as if he expects a reply. Ramcke does not know what to say, so he remains silent.
“Of course, the pact with Stalin was and is the basis for our success. What an ingenious move of the Führer, to ally with our biggest enemy to defeat the western world! I can tell you, that it was not simple to get this agreement. Stalin is suspicious and so is Hitler. I had to arbitrate and I finally made the impossible, an alliance between Hitler and the Bolshevists. Adolf Hitler appertains a place in the gallery of the most outstanding leaders in history that is sure. Where did we start seven years ago, and where are we now?
Additionally, I have to admit that I long for the moment when the bumptious and snotty English will lay in the dirt and beg for mercy. Usually Hitler has a very good feeling for other nations and cultures. However, Hitler has a soft spot for the English. He always thought to get a partnership with them and I am afraid he still thinks the same way. God knows that I tried everything, I argued, I offered them many advantages, I begged and I threatened, those Tommies were far too fancied to cooperate. I tell you, there will be no cooperation. There will be either them or us. We have to crack the British Empire like we did with France.
I know that France has been our main enemy all the time. However, I think now that we taught them a lesson; there may be a chance to cooperate. France realized that it cannot fight Germany in the long run. They will see that they have to arrange with Germany and they will find out that this can be beneficial for them, too. The armistice agreement has not been signed. What I am telling you now is still strictly confidential. Northern France, the Western coast and Paris will remain occupied. Southern France will not remain occupied. It will have the status `non-belligerent`, that means that they will not declare war but support us. The occupied and unoccupied country will have to produce for the German war industry and supply us with food. The French will keep their colonies and their fleet, at least until the final peace agreement.”
Ramcke looks surprised.
“I see that you find this agreement unusual, don’t you? Well, this is another example for the genius of the Führer. The French do everything to keep their colonies – they are so vain – and they need the fleet to defend it. Would we insist in getting the fleet – the fighting would go on. Additionally, I have to say that I am glad that the Führer refused to take the French fleet. Why? Look at the situation right now. There are four France: first of all the occupied territory. Then there is the unoccupied France with the new French government – our puppet. Then there are the colonies. They are tied to the new government loosely. If we do not take care, they could declare themselves independent or even ally with the English. We have to prevent that. As we cannot occupy the colonies we can threaten that we would occupy the rest of France if the colonies fall apart. Then, finally, there is the navy. Some ships already set sails for English harbors. The armistice agreement shows that the Germans will not take the fleet away. France needs the fleet to keep the colonies. Therefore, most of the commanders will not change sides and stay in our indirect control. Furthermore, if the British should try to occupy French colonies – and I am sure they will do this sooner or later – they will have to fight the French navy and it will become more and more likely that France will step into the war on our side.
Therefore we will have to avoid everything that makes the colonies or the French fleet change sides. I would even go one step further. I know that Hitler wants to take big parts of the French homeland and colonies away and give it to Germany or its allies. Therefore many French think that it is silly to defend their colonies against the English only to give them later to the Germans. I say: if the French help us to fight the British, let the British pay the bill. Divide the empire, give parts to the Italians, the Spanish and keep the biggest share for Germany. The French could work off their debt.
Marshal Petain is the right one to sign this agreement and to form a new government. He is a national heroe and the French trust him. In the long run Pierre Laval is our man. He is supporting a close German-French friendship and a natioanlistic government.
Oberstleutnant Ramcke, do I have to explain to you the option this kind of cooperation would give to us? Especially in the Mediterranean Theatre?”
Ramcke shakes his head.
“This morning I was in the Reichskanzlei and I said: ‘My Führer, we have to defeat the British with all strength, right now. They are weak now and are only hiding on their islands. However, they are waiting for their American friends to help them. Sooner or later the Americans will join the war. They are still dwarfs. It will take three or four years, but then they will be giants. The world is full of nations that are not willing to tolerate the domanance of the Anglo-American any longer. We have to build a continental block. We have to make a pact including Italy, Japan, Russia and maybe France.’ Yes, I said, including the Russians. I know Hitler does not like them. However, I said: ‘My Führer, please take a closer look at the Soviet Union. It has changed since Stalin took power. He has arrested and killed millions, most of the old Bolshevist leaders are dead. Stalin has also killed hundred thousands of Jews. Stalin is not a Bolshevist, he is a Nationalist, maybe even more a Nationalsozialist than a Communist. Additionally you have to agree that the Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact did help us a lot. Germany depends on import. Our industrial production would have collapsed within months under the British blockade. The Soviets helped us a lot, not only by delivering us most of the resources we needed. Additionally the agreement opened the trade lines to Sweden, Finland and Romania. No, no, no, without the Russian friendlyness we would not have been able to invade France. Additionally, the pact made it possible to move all our troops to the west. We owe this pact a lot, we owe it our success in the west.
Now that we control our sphere of interest, the Russians will soon take their part. However, we had not negotiated the interests on the Balkans. We had no time and additionally the Italian interests were touched here. We have to negotiate and find an agreement how to divide the Balkans. Maybe we can convince the Russians to attack the English. Maybe we can build a Eurasian block.”
The Foreign Minister makes a break. Ramcke uses this to ask a question: “Foreign Minister, you mentioned Japan.”
“Yes. Japan is another clever move of the Führer. We only need Japan to contain America. The US will never be so crazy to get in trouble with Germany and Japan. They will either make peace or mess with Japan. Japan will probably not stand a war with the US. That does not matter. The main thing is that it keeps the US busy.
The main problem of Japan is China. They started the war long time ago and now they can neither win it nor end it. Once we managed to find an agreement with Russia and the Russians and Japanese settle their differences China will fall immediately.
I tell you: the answer to all problems is a Eurasian Block. It will easily defeat the maritime powers!”
After finishing his speech Ribbentrop stands up to show that the audience is over. Ramcke thanks him and says goodbye.

Where to turn to now?

Kagemusha
07-17-2006, 16:03
To Spain.:bow:

Rodion Romanovich
07-17-2006, 20:10
Yes Spain. After that I think Romania, USSR and Italy are the most interesting places to visit.

AggonyDuck
07-17-2006, 20:22
Italy.

IrishArmenian
07-17-2006, 20:24
Ussr.

Franconicus
07-18-2006, 07:10
I am writing my fingers to the bone and that is all you have to say?:sweatdrop:

Keba
07-18-2006, 08:24
A most interesting development ... the idea of forming an alliance with the USSR is not something that occured to me.

Anyway, I say Spain, the non-agression treaty will hold. And we can always mention the idea to Hitler as an outline for a later plan, it would need time to grow and convince. Later on, Russia, most definately.

Great post, by the way.

King Kurt
07-18-2006, 13:36
First of all - great post Franc - the pot is really begining to boil.
I think our hero should head for Italy. They are the lead partner in the Axis in the Med and anything we do must involve them and must have their support. Besides some diplomatic smoothing, we can assess the strengths and weaknesses of the Italian armed forces. Best of all would be to obtain an audience with El Duce - I am sure we can appeal to his vanity and enmesh him in our plans. We need our planes in Sicily, Sardina and Southern Italy to achieve anything, otherwise we are tilting at windmills at long distance.
So - off to Rome for some good pasta and mixing with the Italian Elite.:2thumbsup:

IrishArmenian
07-18-2006, 19:38
I apologize Franc:embarassed: . But I would like to change my vote to Italy, I love their food. And their resources might be useful too, but that is just a bonus.

Lord Winter
07-19-2006, 04:25
Spain

I agree that Gibraltar should be our first target, however I think we should first secure the oil fields in romania before moving on to target Egypt.

Franconicus
07-19-2006, 11:53
It is Spain - Italy 4 : 3.

Let's go for Spain. I assume the main issue is Gibraltar.

Here are some googles for you:

1) Try to get as mach data about Gibraltar as you can, esp. geography, fortifications, harbor, airfield, power plant, water supply
2) Rate the strategic importance
3) What has do be done to neutralize the garrison?
4) Check all options for an attack:
- the street
- over the mountains (mountain infantry)
- air borne
- air strikes
- naval attack
- amphibious assault
- hidden operation

Good luck :2thumbsup:

AggonyDuck
07-20-2006, 23:16
Okay Gibraltar fanatics, better start researching then. ~;)

King Kurt
07-21-2006, 13:15
Gibraltar can be summed up as a huge lump of rock with a long military history, mainly of failed seiges. Its' strategic importance is that it is the gateway to the Med at the western end and he who controls it, controls access to the med.

It is well fortified with an enormous honeycombe of tunnels which are virtualy bomb proof. It was well supplied with a good supply of water.

To attack it we can rule out amphibious attacks - the Royal Navy rule that out and airbourne - you cant parachute into the town and the airfield sits below the guns of the fortress. If you wished to assault it, it would have to be a full on, well supported infantry assault with loads of artillery, air and engineer support. It would be costly and there would be no element of surprise as the troops would have to come through Spain. In 1940 Spain's railways were shot, so the troops would come by road. All of this also surposes that Spain would allow it. As this would pull Spain into the war on the side of the axis and their economy is in ruins after the Civil War it is not likely that Franco would welcome the idea with open arms - precisely the reason it did not happen in the real WW2.

However, if we are wed to attacking Gibraltar - can I propose an alternative. We petition Franco for the long term leasing of 1 or 2 airfields, about 100 miles away from Gib. We pay for these with grain etc. We then establish a strong force of divebombers, torpedo planes and fighters there, as well as a squadron of Fw 200 condors. This force will effectively neutralise Gib as a base, and provide a strong recon force with the Condors to recon the western approaches to the Med. The british will find it difficult to attack the airfields as this would drag Spain into the war, so they will be forced into withdrawing. They may opt to cature the Canaries as an alternative base, but again, this would be to our political benefit. With the Gib defences smashed, our U Boats would have free access to the Med, so we can attack the Royal Navy more freely.

This option seems infinitly more desirable than a costly assault on the fortress with a host of potentially damaging political consequences. 200 planes could achieve easily what 50 - 100,000 troops would struggle to achieve.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus
07-21-2006, 13:27
I like your option. Especially, because the bombers could be stationed at Vichy controlled northafrica too.

I am sorry to force you into a detailed discussion. Please remember that you may have to present your proposal after two weeks to Göring (who does not like you much) and Hitler. Hitler will ask questions and he will make some proposal and you will have to answer or you are fired (best case scenario!!)

Keba
07-21-2006, 13:32
Info on Gibraltar is somewhat scarce, given that it was not the site of any major battles. It's strategic importance makes it often mentioned, but not in detail.

Although, from what images I have seen, the place is, like King Kurt said, a big rock turned into a fortress. Airborne landings are out of the question, there is no space. Tanks would be of little use, and we do not have a navy. So, it has to be infantry, aided by artillery and aircraft. We have an advantage in these two areas over the Brits, and have to use it, if we are to do anything.

Given the limitations of space and the fortifications, there can be no real tactics. It will have to be a shelling by artillery, then airstrikes, then wave after wave of infantry. Legio's suggestion earlier in this thread would minimize casualties in the initial stages, but once the fighting moves past that point, it will be a slugging match. Although, there is always the possibility of use of chemical weaponry ... I know Germany had some, and if used, could conveniently clean out the corridors and bunkers ... perhaps even force the Brits to surrender, all the while keeping our losses to a minimum.

Franconicus
07-21-2006, 13:51
Alright, Gibraltar is a fortress. Let's see were it has its soft spot. You have to be creative. Following the German plans is not enough, as Germany lost the war.

The Brits do not have any plane. They have a garrison of some thousands with a couple of guns and aaa. Their strongest force is the RN, which can be used as artillery and air defence. One question is how the Germans can neutralize it. Once the RN is gone, the situation is different.

Sabotage: would it be an option to poison the water supply?

Airborne: Is there a chance to get some paras on the top of the hill. They could lead the artillery bombardment and fire with some grenade launchers and machine guns.

What about divers?

Maybe you get some idea by looking at the breakthrough of the Maginot or the seizure of Sewastopol.

Keba
07-21-2006, 15:41
Airborne: Is there a chance to get some paras on the top of the hill. They could lead the artillery bombardment and fire with some grenade launchers and machine guns.

It is possible, however, such high precision jumping is likely to be problematic, especially if the Germans don't jump with weapons. The hilltop is flat enough to allow for paras to land, and should be easy enough to hold. However, it would mean long hours without any support other than artillery.



What about divers?

The Italian strategy could be used, ride the divers in on one of the Italian torpedo thingies (like the ones used from WWI and which also featured in the WWII attack on Alexandria, IIRC), then lay mines on the ships and get out again. This could possibly be an introductory movement, under the cover of night, before the beginning of the main offensive. If succesful, many Brits will be busy fighting the fires and assessing the damage, outside their fort.


Maybe you get some idea by looking at the breakthrough of the Maginot or the seizure of Sewastopol.

The Maginot line was never really broken. We cannot avoid Gibraltar, so the Maginot line solution is out of the question (unless you mean setting up a dummy force, but I do not see how that would be useful, as we need to take Gibraltar). Sevastopol is perhaps the most similar situation, however, we are not dealing with Soviet soldiers, and the mentality of the British is quite different from the self-sacrifice of the Soviets. Officers will not keep their men in line by shooting them, thus, they are easier to break. Secondly, the area is much smaller, which poses a difficulty, but there is no Black Sea fleet, and there are fewer defenders. Since aircraft proved decisive in that battle, it is likely to do so at Gibraltar as well (assuming we actually manage to get to attacking Gibraltar).

King Kurt
07-21-2006, 16:17
Sevastopol held out for ages and was beseiged by an Army group - 4 Corps, 100s of planes and the biggest collection of artillery the Germans ever collected. And the General in charge was Manestein. Gibraltar is easier to defend than Sevastopol and the time to get the troops in place will mean that the garrison will be reinforced. As for British resolve - look how long Tobruk held out and that was just a colllection of houses around a port. Gib with about 6,000 Austrailians would hang on for ever and realy make the attackers pay.
FJ on the mountain top? - Technically possible - just - but who releves them? - No heavy weapons, No supply - just contain them and wait for them to run out of ammo.
All this analysis underlines why my approach is more feasable - the strategic outcome of the loss of Gibraltar is a strategic loss for the English - not so much a strategic gain for us. Our strategic gains - romanian and middle east oil - are else where.:2thumbsup:

Keba
07-21-2006, 17:47
All this analysis underlines why my approach is more feasable - the strategic outcome of the loss of Gibraltar is a strategic loss for the English - not so much a strategic gain for us. Our strategic gains - romanian and middle east oil - are else where.:2thumbsup:

With Gibraltar held by the Brits, the African campaign would be exceptionally difficult.

The paratroopers would be better used to take Malta, robbing the Royal Navy of a base in the middle of the Mediterranean. Also, it would be a good staging point for troops being sent to Africa. A much better and less risky use of the Fallschimjaeger than wasting them on the fortress that is Gibraltar.

However, without Gibraltar, no victory in the Mediterranean will be permanent, as the allies will be able to reinforce the area, and if the British Home Fleet arrives, you could say that we have kicked the proverbial bucket.

At the moment, Gibraltar does not have 6000 Aussies there, but if we do not make a move immediately, there just might be 6000 Aussies there by the time we get moving. Speed is of the essence, not in taking Gibraltar, but in besieging it. Once it is under siege, the port is exposed to our artillery, making any attempt to reinforce the fortress risky ... or suicidal.

AggonyDuck
07-22-2006, 02:23
With Gibraltar held by the Brits, the African campaign would be exceptionally difficult.


This isn't the case, Gibraltar has little effect on the campaign in Northeastafrica. But Gibraltar is on the other hand an exceptional base in operations in the Western Mediterranean and the Atlantic.

But lets not fool ourself in thinking that control of Gibraltar is a decisive factor in the Northafrican campaign. It is the control of the Suez Canal that really is decisive in this campaign. With the loss of it the Brits really lose their best avenue of fighting in the Mediterranean.


About Gibraltar, we really shouldn't know about 10th Light Flotilla. AFAIK its existance was kept top secret and I'm not sure if we actually have any way to actually get the information of their existance.

Gibraltar does have a very limited water supply and is entirely reliant on rainwater. So basically if you could drop some sort of chemical weapons in the rainwater catchment, which is open by the way, you could easily ruin a good part of the british watersupply. (but using chemical weapons is like opening a can of worms)

Keba
07-22-2006, 10:41
(but using chemical weapons is like opening a can of worms)

Meh, we're playing Germany ... using chemical weaponry would be the least of the Reich's crimes. Besides ... noboy needs to know. Like anyone will really care, aside from those who are already our enemies.

King Kurt
07-24-2006, 11:18
Meh, we're playing Germany ... using chemical weaponry would be the least of the Reich's crimes. Besides ... noboy needs to know. Like anyone will really care, aside from those who are already our enemies.
The Third reich were reluctant to use chemical weapons - as was everybody in WW2. As most armies had some form of gas mask etc. the military impact was reduced and the consequences - retaliation with chemical weapons, having to operate in chemical warfare gear etc - meant that things would have to be very desparate to use them. There was allegations of use of chemical weapons by the Germans at Sebastapol, but they were never proved.

If you consider the Gib position - if you poison the water supply, then you might gain a small military advantage - but the water supply was built to provide for the civilians as well as the military and the civilians were evacuated during the war. Far easier to neutralise the base by air attacks than to loose loads of troops in an assault or stir up the hornet's nest of a chemical attack.:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha
07-24-2006, 15:29
I dont understand why even compare the defense of Sevastopol to defenses of Gibraltar? Soviets had a Brigade,three regiments and 19 independent Battalions of Marine Corps of the Black Sea Fleet,total of 106,000 men.150 field and coast guns and 82 aircraft.82 pillboxes with naval guns, 220 machine-gun earth-and-timber emplacements and pillboxes, 33 km of tank ditches, 56 km of wire entanglements and 9,600 mines.
When British had mere two battalions: 2nd The Kings Regiment and 2nd Somerset Light Infantry on the Rock.Artillery 1 regiment,3rd Heavy Regiment, Royal Artillery (previously "Gibraltar Coast Defenses" and later redesignated 3rd Coast Regiment) controlled 4th, 26th, and 27th Batteries with 8 x 9.2-inch guns, 7 x 6-inch guns, and 6 x twin 6-pounders.
10th AA Regiment withtwo AA batteries, the 9th and 19th, defended Gibraltar from air attack with 4 x 3-inch, 4 x 3.7-inch, and 2 x 40mm guns.
Also there was no fighters at all in Gibraltar.So they only had air-defence fire against air attacks.
So in short two battalions of infantry supported by coastal artillery regiment(no mortars,for close support) and one AA regiment.
These forces were nothing compared to defenses of Sevastopol.

I would like to suggest a double Operation. First attack Malta with mixture of Italian and German forces and then after lets say in 6 hours strike Gibraltar with German landforces.This way we would get the British fleet starting to move out from Gibraltar so it would be easy picking.Also we would cut of its retreat after the Malta has been taken.By shutting Gibraltar with our own artillery and Airforces.If this gets any support i will start creating more detailed plan.:bow:

King Kurt
07-24-2006, 16:01
The comparison with Sevastopol is valid in that it shows the level of force required when you have to assault a fortress which can not be nulified by manouver. I know Gib's garrison is smaller, but I was not suggesting attacking it with an Army of 4 Corps. The point is that a ground attack means moving a large amount of troops through Spain - a country whose infrastructure is recovering from a 4 year long civil war and whose railway is a different gauge - so that will take time - even if Franco allows it. And don't forget that the Germans will have to move these troops across Vichy France as well - and technically we are still at war with them!! In that time, the Garrison will be reinforced as the English rule the waves. The quick and more likely answer is the movement of the appropiate airforce squadrons to Spain.

At this point of the war, the neutralisation of Gib is something that would be handy, but is not vital to our long term strategic aims. Gib and Malta were important for the North Africa campaign - but that isn't happening yet.Sadly we must wait for the Italians to mess up big time before that happens.
This is a marathon, not a sprint - we must look to our long term aims - Romanian and Middle East oil.:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha
07-24-2006, 16:40
The comparison with Sevastopol is valid in that it shows the level of force required when you have to assault a fortress which can not be nulified by manouver. I know Gib's garrison is smaller, but I was not suggesting attacking it with an Army of 4 Corps. The point is that a ground attack means moving a large amount of troops through Spain - a country whose infrastructure is recovering from a 4 year long civil war and whose railway is a different gauge - so that will take time - even if Franco allows it. And don't forget that the Germans will have to move these troops across Vichy France as well - and technically we are still at war with them!! In that time, the Garrison will be reinforced as the English rule the waves. The quick and more likely answer is the movement of the appropiate airforce squadrons to Spain.

At this point of the war, the neutralisation of Gib is something that would be handy, but is not vital to our long term strategic aims. Gib and Malta were important for the North Africa campaign - but that isn't happening yet.Sadly we must wait for the Italians to mess up big time before that happens.
This is a marathon, not a sprint - we must look to our long term aims - Romanian and Middle East oil.:2thumbsup:

You also have to remember at this point British were mostly concerned about defending England.Arming up home guard to fight against possible invasion.Britains land forces are at rock bottom at the moment.About Airsquadrons.Ofcourse we need Airsquadrons and atleast 5 divisions to take Gibraltar and protect the attack forces flanks.But Airsquadrons have never taken anything by themselves.
There were lots of more heavily manned and heavily fortified defence areas on ground during Operation Barbarossa then Gibraltar.And with combined arms aproach,just like in plan of Operation Felix those can be cleared of any resistance.
About the Strategig importance of Gibraltar.Why did Germans made the plan of taking it,if it was of no importance?
I dont understand the meaning of securing of Romanian oilfields.At this point we are in good relations with Romania and the Ribbentrop pact is fully operative with Soviet Union.That is supplying us with the raw materials we need.Bessarabia was to go for Soviet Union,but Romania is in our sphere of influence.
The fact is at this moment we are in command of Continental Europe with our allies and we dont have the force to invade England.So what better strategy do you have then to isolate England from its Colonies by taking her Strategig locations from West to East starting from Gibraltar and ending at Suez?~;)

Keba
07-24-2006, 19:41
I would like to suggest a double Operation. First attack Malta with mixture of Italian and German forces and then after lets say in 6 hours strike Gibraltar with German landforces.This way we would get the British fleet starting to move out from Gibraltar so it would be easy picking.Also we would cut of its retreat after the Malta has been taken.By shutting Gibraltar with our own artillery and Airforces.If this gets any support i will start creating more detailed plan.:bow:

This might actually work, except that it would perhaps be better if we took Malta with paratroopers. It would be a good testing ground if we intend to alter the standard doctrines (namely, the annoying jump-without-weapons one, but that's just me). It would also be good for gathering experience for the inevitable showdown with actual Brit forces. The paras could be the first wave, followed by the Italian troops.

However, our problem is the Mediterranean fleet in Alexandria. It is very powerful, and not that far from Malta itself. It could be a problem if they were sent instead of the Gibraltar squadron. Perhaps if we convince the Command in Alexandria that Malta is a diversion and that our actual plan is to invade, say, Palestine, forcing the Brits to retain their Mediterranean fleet near port, and further forcing them to send the Gibraltar squadron to aid the besieged island. With success, we could trap all those ships in the Mediterranean.

In North Africa, once we are past El-Alamein, we should have no problems, the locals are probably going to be quite happy to help us out against the British opressors.

IrishArmenian
07-25-2006, 00:02
I would firebomb it. Smoke them out. Make it unbearable to live their. Spike their water and food etc.

Franconicus
07-25-2006, 07:15
Chapter 7– To Spain
Spain, June 21st – 22nd1940

21.6. Ramcke decides to visit Spain. Gibraltar could become one of the most important targets to beat the British and to support the Italians. He looks at his watch. It is too late to start the flight this evening. He calls the pilot and orders him to be ready early next morning. Ramcke wants to avoid the French airspace and decides to fly via Italy. Then he sends a telegram to inform the German embassy in Madrid about his intend
Ramcke is looking forward to the trip to Spain. Dealing with the administration is not his favorite business. He has been to Spain before the Great War, when he was still a sailor. He visited the Southern Coast and he liked the country and its people, especially their hospitality and their candidness. He is looking forward to a day or two in a country that lives in peace.
Early next day, Ramcke arrives at the airfield. At half past five the plane takes off. It cruises with 180km/h. First refueling stop is at the military airport of Fürstenfeldbruck, and then they fly over the Alps. The weather is good and Ramcke enjoys the beautiful sight. The flight across the mountains is uneventful and in the afternoon they touch down at Milano airport. While the plane is refueled Ramcke and the pilot have to take care of some formalities. Ramcke notices that the Italian authorities work even slower than the German ones. Finally they take off again and fly over the sea. Ramcke looks down at the blue sea and thinks that this is a more pleasant way to travel than being on the deck of a gunboat. Late in the evening the plane touches ground at Barcelona. It is too late to continue the flight and Ramcke has to stay the night at Barcelona.
22.6. Next morning they continue their trip and reach Madrid at noon. Ramcke has never been to the Spanish capitol before. A taxi drives him from the airport to the centre. Ramcke is surprised to see a scene of destruction. There must have been a hard battle around Madrid and the signs of war are highly visible. Many buildings are completely destroyed, others have bullet holes, and streets are filled with debris.
Ramcke checks in a hotel in the middle of the town. Then he calls the embassy. Half an hour later he is having lunch in a restaurant with two men. One of them introduces himself: “My name is General Wilhelm Faupel. I was ambassador here at Madrid until last year. My successor asked me to welcome you and to help you as much as possible. I will try to answer all political and economical questions. Here at my side is naval attaché Alfred Menzell.”
“Thank you for your helpfulness.”
The three men order lunch.
Faupel: “My dear Ramcke, yesterday we heard that our troops took Vichy and Lyon. Today we hear rumors about armistice negotiations. Can you tell me what is going on?”
Ramcke: “Well, I do not have any information you do not have. All I can tell you is that military circles at Berlin think that the French army is defeated and cannot stand any longer. I assume there will be an armistice agreement within in the next days.”
Faupel: “Let’s clink glasses to the undefeatable German army!”
The three men raise their glasses and take a sip of wine.
Faupel: “Well, France is defeated. Well done! This explains that Spain comes into the focus of the German attention.”
Ramcke: “What do you mean?”
Faupel: “Didn’t you know that Admiral Canaris arrived at Madrid yesterday? He has meetings with Franco today. That is the reason why the ambassador could not welcome you!”
Ramcke: “Err, I see!”
Faupel: “To be honest, the embassy is a bit confused. Why did you not come with Canaris? Why are there two initiatives at the same time?”
Ramcke shrugged: “Well, you know, the different branches have their own programs. Unfortunately, there is a lack of coordination. Never mind! Can you help me to get an audience with Franco and some military leaders?”
Faupel: “In no way! Maybe I did not explain the situation clear enough. Currently there are two German missions here in Madrid. Both want to negotiate about the Spanish war entry and about Gibraltar, do they?”
Ramcke nods his head.
Faupel: “One mission is lead by Admiral Canaris, Hitler’s leader of the German Abwehr. The other one is lead by – Oberstleutnant Ramcke.”
Faupel makes a short break. “Franco does not understand why the Germans send two delegations. If I am honest – neither me! To avoid diplomatic complications Franco decided to ignore one of them – you! For the Spanish leader you do not exist. This applies accordingly to all other authorities. Of course they know that you arrived. Did you see that you have been shadowed?”
Ramcke shook his head.
Faupel: “That is the reason why the ambassador has chosen not to invite you into the embassy.”
Ramcke looks disappointed. Diplomacy is much more complicated than he has thought. Maybe his trip to Madrid is only a waste of time.
Faupel: “Don’t be sorry, Oberstleutnant! As I said before, we will answer your questions as good as possible!”
Ramcke: “Alright! What can you tell me about the political and economical situation?”
Faupel: “Since he won the civil war Franco is trying to stabilize the situation. However, his regency is still very fragile. The communist are defeated, of course. Franco’s government is based on a coalition of the military, the fascists and the church. The first one is the strongest; the Fascists are the second one. The church is supporting Franco, too, but it is also insisting on its independency. The Fascists are becoming dangerous for Franco. They cry for a Fascist revolution.
The communists do not play a major role right now. However, big parts of the population are still against Franco. They are quiet now, but this could change rapidly.
During the Civil War 100,000 to 200,000 people were killed during combat. Many more were killed during cleansings and terror. During the war the industrial production declined by 30, the agriculture production by 20%. Spain is not able to feed its people anymore. Right now there is a famine that will cause more deaths than the bullets of the communists. In total there may be a million killed.
Franco is depends on food supply from abroad, especially from South America. If he cannot buy enough food, the people will revolt because of hunger.
People leave the towns and move to the country to find something to eat. The industrial production is low. To rebuild his industry Franco needs oil, which he has to import. The most important supplier for oil is the US.
If Franco enters the war, England will interrupt the supply lines for oil and foot. Furthermore the US would not supply oil any longer. The Spanish economy and Franco’s regime would crash within weeks.
Spanish ore is vital fort he German war industry. During the Civil War the German-Spanish trade was done with a system of compensation with the two companies HISMA (Compañía Hispano-Marroquí de Transportes Ltda.) and ROWAK (Rohstoff-und Wareneinkaufsgesellschaft m.b.H.). Göring gave these two companies the monopoly for the Spanish-German trade.
Franco promised the complete ore production of the coming years to Germany in return for military support. There are still huge outstanding debts. Franco does not get any foreign exchange for that. Sooner or later he will want to trade a larger part of the ore production on the free market. Therefore, Franco wishes to get trade agreements with England as soon as possible.”
Ramcke: “If I understand you right, Franco is not willing to support us and to enter the war? You assume that he is even willing to deal with the English?”
Faupel: “Did I say so? The Spaniards are very proud, especially the military government. They did neither forget the English help for the communist nor the German for the rebels. Additionally if we talk about Gibraltar, that is a thorn in the soul of every Spanish officer.
In the beginning of the war Franco hesitated. His country is still weakened from the Civil War and the Spanish army is weak. Our victory changed a lot of things. Now, Franco starts to think that the German victory is inevitable and that Germany will divide Europe and the colonies. He starts to wonder what is in it for Spain. If he could get Gibraltar and could increase the colonies that would strengthen his position a lot. He takes a look at French Morocco, Oran and he wants to increase Spanish Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco already declared the status of `non-belligerent’. Furthermore Spain occupied Tangier at June 14th.
However, he still has to be very carefully. If the English are able to strike back, for example if Spain would loose the Canaries, the Spaniards would revolt against Franco. I assume he is waiting for the right moment. He will enter the war when he is sure that the English will be defeated and cannot strike back anymore.”
Ramcke: “I see! The Spaniards will only join us if the war is won, not to help us win the war? Can you give me some information about the state of the Spanish army?”
Menzell: “Sure! If you plan an operation against the English, do not count on the Spanish army. They are weak, undisciplined, their moral is low, and their equipment is old. They do not have tank, anti tank guns or air defense. The training is poor. At the moment they are a kind of auxiliary police.”
Ramcke sighs: “You do not see any chance to get me in contact with the authorities. I mean, it does not have to be Franco itself.”
Faupel: “No, I am sorry. Additionally the ambassador would be pleased if your stop at Madrid is not too long.”
Ramcke: “Do not worry. It looks like there is nothing I can do here anymore.”
Menzell: “Wait a moment! I agree that nobody is going to talk to you here at Madrid. However, if you want to have more information about Gibraltar, why don’t you join me? We have a little station at the southern coast. I am going on an inspection visit tomorrow. Come with me. The commander of the southern military district is a friend of mine. He will be pleased to meet you.”
Ramcke hesitates. Taking a look at Gibraltar is very tempting. Maybe he can find the missing information that will be essential for an operation. On the other side he has only four weeks to make a report about a strategy for the complete ocean. 5 days are already gone. He has the feeling that the progress is not good enough.

Kagemusha
07-25-2006, 10:13
Good ole Canaris,is already making our life miserable. Maybe we should send a telegram to Berlin,so maybe they could help us to gain access to the Spanish Leadership?

AggonyDuck
07-25-2006, 12:04
:laugh4:

I doubt a telegram will help in this matter. ~:)

Kagemusha
07-25-2006, 12:20
Bloody Canaris!~:mecry:

Keba
07-25-2006, 13:59
Keep in mind that, at the moment, we override Canaris ... we are making a report for Hitler himself and that we can make suggestions there. We have lost this little avnue, but chances are if Hitler chooses to go to Spain first and simply request military access, we could still be successful.

I say that we should perhaps go to Italy now, Canaris will be in Spain for several days, at least, giving us a chance to meet with some Italian commanders, and perhaps even Mussolini himself. In the long run, Italy is more important. Perhaps we could even arrange for a taking of Malta with the Italians, and maybe even drop a hint or two of sending German troops to aid Italy in the taking of North Africa, as a gesture of friendship, of course.

King Kurt
07-25-2006, 15:44
What we have learnt in Spain is that the political situation rules out a large military presence in spain - it will destabilise the regieme too much and plunge the country into civil war again and we will be mired down in a war against spanish partisans - Napoleon couldn't handle that, so I don't see Hitler going the same way - also Franco's demands will be untenable. So let's offer them some grain and a way out of the iron contract in exchange for some bases - similar to lend- lease etc. - and set up the air blockade.

We should turn our thoughts to Malta and the Balkans, which means a trip to Italy with a view of working on intergrating our forces with the Italians - remember this is 1940 and Italy leads for the Axis in this arena.

Finaly we should let our superiors know of the involvement of Canaris and his interference in Spain - let us seek some advice/ assistance from our chiefs - we don't want the good Admiral poping up in Rome to screw things up there do we.:2thumbsup:

AggonyDuck
07-25-2006, 20:14
That also brings forth the question, how much time do we have before we're forced to hand in our plan to the OKW?

About Canaris interference, we knew that he was heading for Spain, but didn't really think of the effects that this would have. It's not the fault of Canaris that we weren't allowed to meet Franco.

(checked that myself, we have 3 weeks and 3 days left.)

Lord Winter
07-26-2006, 05:15
Lets go to romania and see about the oil fields it seems like any large scale attack on galibter can't be done and the romanian oil could be vital. Malta should be visited after.

EDIT CHANGED VOTE TO ITALY

Kagemusha
07-26-2006, 11:53
But what the heck do you guys want to do in Romania? Attack an ally or start a war with SU?:sweatdrop:

King Kurt
07-26-2006, 12:45
Kage is right - no point in going to Romania. our thoughts should be of ensuring the romanian oilfields are secure, but we do not need to go there to do that. I also anticipate we will not be visiting Malta as well, on the grounds that it is occupied by the British!!
Our next point of call has to Rome Italy is the main player and ally in the area so we must build links with El Duce - so heavy on the flattery.:2thumbsup:

SwordsMaster
07-26-2006, 13:37
What? We have wasted 5 days and achieved nothing in Spain and we are leaving?! That'd be a waste of 5 days! MAybe if we can spend another 2 of them doing something useful, we can make up for the wasted time. We will still have 2 weeks to go to Italy.

And Gibraltar is much more important strategically than Malta and Crete will ever be. If we can lock the Mediterranean, Malta and Crete will be out of supplies in weeks, and their garrisons will have to give up when they run out of bullets. By taking Malta, we are spending men on an operation that gives us nothing - Italian airbases in NAfrica are just as good for our bombers -.

Italy is the only major player in the area we still have to visit. We might have 4-5 days left after that to make the most out of the other potential players - I would suggest Turkey, as they control the other access to the Mediterranean and have a border with the Allied Middle Eastern colonies which could provide useful.

King Kurt
07-26-2006, 14:26
Our visit to Spain has not been wasted. We now know that the country is in a fragile state and that the presence of the ground troops necessary for an assault will probably throw the country into civil war again. At the very least Franco will make such excessive demands that Hitler will say no. That, coupled with the fact that their is no obvious way to get our troops across Vichy France - remember our hero choose not to fly over France - suggests to me that the Gib infantry assault is currently out of the question. The air blockade seems a sounder idea and we do not need to visit southern Spain to gather any more information for that.

Why attack Malta? - because it is easier at this moment in time. Defences are weak, it is close to friendly - i.e. Italian - bases and it will deny the British a vital base in the central Med. If some form of North Africa campaign occurs - as would seem likely if we are to capture the Suez canal - then Malta in British hands would be a thorn in our side and severly disrupt supplies to North Africa.

as for time, we have just over 3 weeks before presenting to Hitler. Allowing for travel, getting to see people etc, that is not a lot of time. So Italy to get our ally onside and brought into our schemes - remember that El Duce is jealous of preserving his apparent position of being the Axis's main man in the Med - then Turkey and finaly a trip to the Balkans to see things there on the ground.:2thumbsup:

AggonyDuck
07-26-2006, 14:32
I think it might be better if we do listen to the commander of the Southern Military District. Better make some use of this visit after all.

Kagemusha
07-26-2006, 15:21
I agree with Duckie.:2thumbsup:

JimBob
07-27-2006, 04:36
I agree with Kurt. Taking Gibraltar is not our primary objective, observing it would waste time, we can go see it later. Kurt's plan to neutralize it will acheive the most important parts of taking Gibraltar, without actually having to waste thousands of troops in a costly assault. Right now we are outlining a strategy for action in the Med, we know the attacking Gib by land is all but out of the question. Let's stay with the task at hand, after we can go on 'leave' in Andalucia. Until then we must come up with a strategy for taking control of the Med and securing both the Romanian and Middle Eastern oil. Gib is not a critical part of that. Malta on the other hand is a better target. It provides a forward base for operations in N. Africa, we deny the Allies a similar forward base, and we create an obstacle in the middle of the Med that the Allies must pass. Lets go to Italy and find out how we take Malta (preferably with the use of the FJ, Malta is a good testing ground for using them in large numbers).

Lord Winter
07-27-2006, 05:41
Kage is right - no point in going to Romania. our thoughts should be of ensuring the romanian oilfields are secure, but we do not need to go there to do that.
Agreed, I change my Vote to Italy. I do however disagree


I also anticipate we will not be visiting Malta as well, on the grounds that it is occupied by the British!!
It may be possible if we wanted to, dressing as tourist.

King Kurt
07-27-2006, 09:03
It may be possible if we wanted to, dressing as tourist.

We are bound to give ourselves away as soon as we start putting towels on the sunloungers!!!:laugh4:

Franconicus
07-28-2006, 14:14
Let me summarize:

Italia (DoH; JimBob, Kink Kurt) : 3 votes
Spain (Agony Duck; Kage, Swordsm) : 3 votes
other : none

:inquisitive:

Please check again!

What information do you want to get, who do you want to meet?

King Kurt
07-28-2006, 15:44
For italy we need to speak to our emabassy - prefereably the military attache - Italian War ministry or head of armed forces and it would be great to see El Duce so we can butter him up and work on ways of working together. In particular we want to know what their Balkan ambitions are and the possibility of an attack on Malta.:2thumbsup:

AggonyDuck
07-28-2006, 22:44
If we go to Italy, then the Italian Supreme Command would be a good visit.

Franconicus
07-31-2006, 07:16
It is still Italy : Gibraltar 3 - 3 :dizzy2:

Franconicus
07-31-2006, 12:52
Chapter 8– At the Eternal City
Italy, June 23rd – 24th 1940

Ramcke decides not to go to Gibraltar. Though it is tempting he already thinks that Gibraltar will not be the priority one target. Ramcke decides to go to Rome. Italy is the main ally at the Mediterranean Sea, it wages war and it has the lead in this region. There is no way to bypass Mussolini. Maybe it is easier to get information here.
Ramcke thanks Faupel and Manzell for their support. He writes two telegrams and asks them to send them to the ambassador at Rome to inform him about his arrival and to the RLM to inform Leutnant Schulz and General Student about his travel arrangements.
Ramcke arrives at Rome on June 23rd. Once again he has to pass the Italian customs authorities. It is noon and obviously he has to wait until the officers finish their lunch break. Fortunately, the situation changes when an employee of the embassy arrives. He manages to guide Ramcke through. On the way to the embassy he delivers him a sealed envelope with documents.
Ramcke looks at the back side and sees the chop of the RLM. Inside the envelope he finds a letter from Student and a letter from Schulz.
Schulz sends him some information he thinks might help Ramcke.

France: There are some details about the armistice with France. France will be occupied in the area westwards and northwards of the line Geneva – Dôle – Tours – Mont de Marsa – Spanish border. The complete Channel and Atlantic coast will be in the hands of the Germans. The French army will be limited to 100,000 men, with a small air force and no army. The fleet will be reduced significantly; however, it will not be delivered to the Germans. At the moment there are 2 battleships, 2 bid destroyers, 8 destroyers and torpedo boats, 7 submarines and 200 smaller vessels at Plymouth und Portsmouth. There will be a French government in the unoccupied part of France. At the beginning of July it will move to Vichy. Pierre Laval enters the government as prime minister under Marshall Pétain.

Russia: July 21st: The Soviet Union formally annexes Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and they become constituent republics of the USSR.
England: July 22nd: The British Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, replies to Hitler's "appeal to common sense" of July 19th with "we shall not stop fighting till freedom for ourselves and others is secure."
Kesselring's Luftflotte 2 start raids against the convoys in the Channel.
USA: The British Purchasing Mission in the United States reaches agreement that it will be allowed to buy up 40 percent of the United States' production of aircraft.
Balkans: The OKW announces that members of the armed forces may not travel privately into one of the following countries: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania or Greece. Official journeys to Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland have to be approved by the Führer Headquarter.

Ramcke opens Student’s letter. It is short:

“Auswärtiges Amt complained about your appearance at Spain. Göring fumed. Do not raise a disturbance at Rome. Italians are very sensitive.
Send a report as soon as possible. What are your next plans? Be careful if you intend to travel to the Balkans. There is trouble brewing and you have to be very diplomatic. For heaven’s sake, do not fly to the Balkans from Italy!

Gen. Student.”

Half an hour later Ramcke sits at the office of the German ambassador Hans Georg Viktor von Mackensen:

“Welcome at Rome, Oberstleutnant Ramcke! Ribbentrop’s secretary already informed me about the purpose of your journey and asked me to support you. How can I help you?”

Ramcke: “Thank you, ambassador! I need information about the current situation in the Mediterranean Sea. Everything could be helpful. Main issues are the military strength of the Italians, the strength of the British positions, the plans of the Italian staff and their willingness to cooperate with us. Maybe I can meet someone from the Italian government?”

Mackensen: “You will get all the data you need. Our 2nd military attaché Oberstleutnant Wilhelm Otzen and the German Trade Representative Max Troendle will look after you. We can arrange meetings with Foreign Minister Gian Galeazzo Ciano, Count of Cortellazzo, with the Chief of the General Staff, Undersecretary General Pariani, with the former leader of the Servizio Informazioni Militare and former military attaché at Berlin Mario Roatta, and Commander Ernesto Forza of the Decima Flottiglia MAS”
Mackensen calls for the Otzen and Troendle and introduces them to Ramcke.
He says good bye to Ramcke ending with the words” … Just tell Otzen and Troendle who you want to meet!”
Ramcke has still the letter of Student in mind. Therefore he thinks twice who he will visit. Furthermore he has to send a first report. The pleasure trip is over.

AggonyDuck
07-31-2006, 13:36
Pariani and Forza should be two good people to visit. :2thumbsup:

King Kurt
08-01-2006, 13:35
Our problems in Spain came from us getting too involved with diplomacy. Perhaps we should leave the diplomacy to diplomats - unless the embassy suggests that it would be protocol for us to visit the Foreign office. We can get all the diplomatic background we need from the embassy. We should in particular try to understand what is happening in the Balkans and the likely turn of events.

So that means concentrtaing on Pariani and Forza. Pariani seems well connected and could introduce us to influential people if we strike a cord. We should couch our discussions on the line of how we could enhance Italian military efforts and support them fully as opposed to us jumping in feet first and stamping all over their sensitivities. Forza comes from the Italian's elite unit - their version of the SBS etc. They have an established reputation going back to WW1 and are not only brave and militarily talented, but also happy to incorporate new technology into their forces. They also have a reputation for being hard core facists - their unit went over to the Germans after Italy surrendered in 1943 and gained a notoriety similar to the SS for their civilian massacres etc. I would imagine that he would be extremely arrogant but we might strike a chord with him due to our Elite unit background. He is probably well connected and if we could plant the idea of some form of joint operation he could be a strong advocate for our ideas.

In general, I sense that the Italians would guard their areas of activity jealously and would have a feeling being the poor relation in the Alliance An approach which is aware of this and plays on these sensitivies will get us a long way.:2thumbsup:

Kraxis
08-02-2006, 14:07
Agreed, those two are the best to meet. I was afraid people might chose Ciano. That could have been a blunder of momentous proportions (a mere Obersleutnant requesting a meeting with the Foreign Minister?). No, we have to use people on own level, and that has to be the undersecretary, besides, Ciano is a charmer not a beaurocrat, he known nothing that Pariani doesn't and then some.

The military choice is also great, as again we will meet a person on our own level, but who has connections enough to be able to make it worth our time.

We should send a report to Student that we are looking into the 'Malta Issue'.
Malta is important for several reasons. Politically it is the same for Italy as Gibraltar is for Spain, at least if Italy manages to get it. She wants Malta a whole lot. So getting it would boost Italian confidence. Maybe we should get their few paratroopers to join us? Attached to our units they could learn a lot. Good for propaganda and relations.

It is an easy victory, an a good test for a larger scale operation for the FJ. In fact it will be a great test for coordination of not only all three branches (in this case the FJ counts as army), but also between allies.
We haven't tried large scale drops before, so naturally we are a bit green there. We need to learn the hard way what is good and what is bad, and we do that best by testing it out against something weak, like Malta.
Learning combined the resulting boost of morale would make the FJ a force to fear. Simply by existing the British would have to react to them.

Malta will be either a thorn in our side or in the British side. If we don't take it, then Italy will have to run past an enemy stronghold if she wishes to keep her connection with Libya. On the other hand, if we take it, Gribraltar suddenly loses a lot of importance. The connection from the west to the east is cut, sicne we have removed a steppingstone. Then Gribraltar will become nothing more than a nuisance, and not the monumental obstacle.

Every convoy would have to go all the way around Africa and through the Suez, meaning it will take a very long time to get troops and supplies to Alexandria.
So Malta holds the same benefits for us as it did historically for the British.

King Kurt
08-02-2006, 15:56
I doubt that Malta would be an easy victory. Its defences are probably better than Crete's were and it would have more of a military infrastructure - fortifications, supplies etc - than Crete had as well. Crete was defended by the remnants of the troops which had been evacuated from Greece - poorly supplied with no support infrastructure. What's more if some of the Allies generals had been a little more aggressive then Crete would have been a complete disaster as opposed to the Phyric victory that it was. Also I think that the civilian population would resist like they did in Crete. finally there are some naval assets actually based in Malta and they would also be part of the defence.:2thumbsup:

Kraxis
08-02-2006, 19:05
There are a couple destroyers, not much AA, three Gloster Gladiators and a very weak garrison. Currently there isn't much in terms of fortifications. And what there is should be pointed out to sea.
Also Malta is significantly less rugged than Crete.

It won't be easy for the individual Fallschirmjäger, but in terms of losses and duration this should be comparably easy for a division of FJ to capture. Perhaps there could even be a nightly occupation of the important structures, along the lines of Eben Emael.

Remember this isn't Malta of 1942. And there certainly aren't tough New Zealanders in their thousands sitting and waiting for them.
Even if the Malta garrison for some odd reason is able to repel the first wave it will be caught dead out in the open with the next wave. The attackers won't go in without Stukas of course... And with Italian BBs pounding the island (we should most stress this for the Italians) it should be a foregone conclusion that the island will fall.

AggonyDuck
08-02-2006, 22:01
The real problem with Malta isn't taking it, but in actually convincing the Italians to allow us to invade this seemingly unimportant island. ~:)

Kraxis
08-02-2006, 22:33
The real problem with Malta isn't taking it, but in actually convincing the Italians to allow us to invade this seemingly unimportant island. ~:)
I doubt that should be a real problem. As long as we hand over official command to Admiral Iachino of the Italian Navy, then it should be easy. The Italians are vain, so we should cater to it. Let them have the top dog (but we run the show), have their navy do the bombardments, have their few paratroopers join us (great for propagandashots for the Italian population)... They will accept.

Also Malta is similar to Gibraltar in that the Italians actually want it, just like Spain wants Gib. Of course not as much as the Spanish, but it is a similar feeling.
Italy has the two other 'big' little islands out there, Panteleria and Lampedusa. They consider them important and have rather large garrisons on them. Also the Italians know that Malta is sitting in the middle of their line of communications to Tripoli.

If we have time we should visit the Italian Intelligence. It was one of the few areas where Italy did better than Germany. It cleverly deducted the landings in Sicily and earlier in Africa, and was not fooled by the ruse to hit Sardinia. Of course being Italians, and not terribly effective at anything else they did, the Germans ignored their warnings every time.

Pannonian
08-02-2006, 23:18
I'm getting into this a bit late, but may I add a few notes.

1. Churchill held out the implied promise of Gibraltar for Franco if he would keep out of the war. Conversely, if Spain did anything to help Germany, they would lose the Canaries. Of course, the promise was put in such vague terms that the Spanish believed it was a firm deal while the British denied everything after the war. Anyway, evidently Franco bought into the promise of gaining Gibraltar without fighting the British since he brought it up after the war.
2. Hitler looked at the Spanish railways and deemed them incapable of moving any significant numbers of troops (more than a division or so in a reasonable period). The roads were even worse. So any German landward attack on Gibraltar would need significant lead time. One would expect the large numbers of British agents in Spain to warn of such preparations long before the German troops were in a position to attack.
3. The Italian navy was of high quality, but Mussolini was reluctant to risk them against the RN, since it was the only bargaining chip he had against Hitler. If the Italian fleet can get into a reasonable position against the RN, it can expect to engage on reasonably even terms (it, unlike the Kriegsmarine, had properly aggressive officers). IIRC their only real weakness was a lack of air defence.
4. If the UK-Alexandria link is cut by the loss of Malta, the Egyptian force would presumably take on a more Commonwealth look, with fewer reinforcements from Blighty and more from South Africa, India and ANZAC.

AggonyDuck
08-03-2006, 02:38
3. The Italian navy was of high quality, but Mussolini was reluctant to risk them against the RN, since it was the only bargaining chip he had against Hitler. If the Italian fleet can get into a reasonable position against the RN, it can expect to engage on reasonably even terms (it, unlike the Kriegsmarine, had properly aggressive officers). IIRC their only real weakness was a lack of air defence.


Actually the Regia Marina's biggest problem was that captains and admirals had little freedom in conducting battles. The supreme command of the navy had a bad habit of interfering in commands and trying to handle the naval battles from land.

Kraxis
08-03-2006, 02:58
Actually the Regia Marina's biggest problem was that captains and admirals had little freedom in conducting battles. The supreme command of the navy had a bad habit of interfering in commands and trying to handle the naval battles from land.
You could also argue that the aggressive captains, and timid admirals tended to clash in operations. One instance saw the Italian light cruiser charge in, expecting Vittorio Veneto (or was it Littorio?) to reinforce them. But the admiral in charge held back with indecision and later regular timidity, causing the light cruiser charge to run afoul Valiant I think, forcing them to retire. Had one or the other line of thought been brought through, then it would have been a much better situation for the Italians, but in this case it could have ended in utter disaster where the Italians should have been able to crush the British.

Also, several times the superior Vittorio Venete and Littorio ran from WWI vintage battleships, battles they should have won handedly.

Also, aside from battleships and destroyers (Italian destroyers were considered very good ships), the Italian designed left a lot to be desired. Especially their fast light cruisers were horrible, to the point that they couldn't even beat large destroyers like the Tribals. Their heavy cruisers were also fast to the point of recklessness, never truly able to compete with the British heavy cruisers (which weren't even that good to begin with).

It seems that the Italians could have used the German ships (tough and hardhitting), while Germany could have used the Italian ships (fast and long range).

Franconicus
08-03-2006, 12:05
Chapter 9– General Pariani
Italy, June 24th 1940

In the afternoon Trade Representative Max Troendle presents about the Italian economy. The room is hot and muggy. Ramcke is bombarded with economic notions and numbers like directed economic, industrial economic, trade balance, gross national product etc. He does not understand a word. His mind starts wandering and he figures lying in the sun on the Italian beach with nothing but his bathing suit. Maybe in company of some beautiful Italian .. After three hours Troendle rips him out of his dreams:
“I think you have a short summary of the Italian economy. Do you need any further details?”
Ramcke: “Err, thank you very much, Mr. Troendle! Your presentation was really very – extensive. I have to admit that I have not been able to understand everything. Could you please do me a favor and try to summarize it to the skills of an ordinary soldier? Maybe three or four statements?”
Troendle sighs: “Alright! The Italian industry is weak. The Fascist control did not improve the economy significantly. The industrial production will hardly be sufficient to equip the Italian army according to the modern standard. When Italy entered the war it did it without any preparation. For example, one third of the Italian merchant ships with in total 1.2 million gross registered tons was outside the Mediterranean and therefore lost immediately. To keep the production on the current level Italy has to import natural resources of 22 million tons per year. 50%, that is 11 million tons, had been from overseas. To keep the industries running these imports have to be replaced now by imports from Germany and the continental block. Is this simple enough, Oberstleutnant?”

Ramcke: “What you are saying is that Mussolini’s ability to wage a war depends completely on the support from Germany?”
Troendle: “If you like to formulate it that way – yes!”
Otzen: “Maybe we should make a break now. We will meet General Pariani this evening. Maybe you want to go to your hotel room and change into a new uniform, Oberstleutnant Ramcke?”
Ramcke drives to the hotel to freshen up. In the evening Troendle and Otzen pick him up. They drive to a restaurant.
Ramcke: “Can you tell me something about the gentlemen we will meet?”
Otzen: “General Pariani? He is Chief of the General Staff. He is responsible for the reform of the army structure in 39.”
The car stops in front of the restaurant. When they enter Ramcke can see that it is a very exclusive one; at least much more exclusive than he could afford. A waiter guides them to a table in a separate room. The room was lit with candles and the soft sound of a piano came through the open door.
After a quarter of an hour a man came into the room. He is wearing a noble made-to-measure uniform. When he comes to the table Otzen welcomes him: “General Pariani, may I introduce Oberstleutnant Ramcke to you?”
Pariani nods to Ramcke. Then he takes a seat. The waiter appears with some bottles of wine. Soon afterwards he comes back with two colleagues bringing the starter. Ramcke wonders if the waiter had received his orders in advance or if Pariani comes frequently to this restaurant.

During the starter there is no conversation. The four men concentrate on a masterpiece of the Italian cuisine. After the starter there is a break, which Pariani uses to turn to Ramcke:
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, I see that you are member of the Fallschirmjäger; a fine unit. Did you participate in the operations against Belgium and the Netherlands?”
“No, General Pariani! Unfortunately I could not. General Student called me to his staff two weeks ago. Before that I was in the army.”
“I see! Do you come straight from Germany?”
“No Sir! I come straight from Madrid.”
Pariani furrows his brows: “Then tell me, Oberstleutnant Ramcke, what a German officer does at Spain these days?”
Otzen: “General, it looks like the German General Staff worries about English special operations on the peninsula. Oberstleutnant Ramcke visited Madrid to see how German troops could help Franco in such a case.”
Pariani: “There isn’t much fear of.The German General Staff should care about the English in England. Spain, as the whole Mediterranean Sea, is part of the Italian sphere of interest. Let me assure you that we have everything under control. Oberstleutnant Ramcke, what is the reason for you to visit Rome. Do you fear English operations here, too?”
Ramcke: “No, no, no, General Pariani, don’t get me wrong! General Student asked me to talk to you to find out how we can support the Italian operations. He is sure that you will not need our support to be victorious, no doubt about that, but maybe we can do something to speed up the Italian triumph. I have to admit that I am not very familiar with the Italian army. Maybe you can give me some information. Maybe you can even tell me something about the planned operations and how we can support you.”
Pariani: “You are right; we will not have to call for German help if we start to drive the English out of the Mediterranean Sea.”
The waiters enter the room, again, and bring the next course. Ramcke is not unhappy about this break. Once again he notices how dangerous diplomacy is. It is like crossing a mine field. You never know where the next mine is until it exploits.
After the second course and more wine Pariani continues the conversation.
“Alright, Oberstleutnant Ramcke, you want to have information about the Italian army. Well, nobody shall say that the Italians are not cooperative. Maybe you know that we started a reform of our army last year. Due to that we were able to increase the numbers of divisions to 73. This is twice as much as England has in total. Three divisions are tank divisions. Four are mechanized divisions. 23 of our divisions are outside of the mainland, either in Libya or in Abyssinia. The four motorized divisions are part of the Libyan forces. It isn’t hard to see that we can drive the English out of Northern Africa whenever we like to. Don’t you agree?”
Ramcke: “I can hardly disagree, General Pariani.”
Pariani: “Of course we have to rule the sea to conquer Africa. Our navy has six ultramodern battleships. The English have a couple of old ones at Alexandria and they are going to send a couple of others to Gibraltar. I doubt that they will take our ships on. They have no chance. Of course we have another huge advantage. Our bases are right in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, at the crossing of the lines Alexandria-Gibraltar and Sicily-Libya. We can decide when and where we want to fight. Our impressive force of battleships is supported by many other ships, seven heavy and fifteen light cruisers, 68 torpedo boats, 59 destroyers, 27 minesweepers, 73 speedboats, 121 submarines and many more. Our submarines will attack the English wherever they will try to hide. It will only take a couple of months to sweep off the Royal Navy. Does the German navy can compete with that?”
Ramcke: “Indeed, Sir, your numbers are very impressive.”
Pariani: “Additionally, there is the Italian air force. I know that the German air force did a very good job during the campaign against France. However, believe me, Oberstleutnant; the Italian air force does not stand back. We have the numbers, modern planes, experienced pilots. I tell you, the English do not have a chance.”
Ramcke: “It is good to hear this.”
Pariani: “Do not forget that our armed forces are inspired by the spirit of Fascism. They are high motivated and they will unhesitant risk their lives to create the new Roman Empire.”
Ramcke: “There is no doubt that the Italians will defeat the British, General. What operations do you plan?”
Pariani: “From the day we entered the war our navy attacked the Royal Navy. Probably you know that our submarine Bagnolini sank the British cruiser Calypso south of Crete. Our navy also bombarded the Egypt harbor of Sollum. Naturally, our army aches to attack the British in Africa. There have been minor operations in East Africa, but our major invasion against British Somalia will start at the beginning of August. After the fall of Somalia we will control the exit of the Suez Channel. The army there consists of 285.000 soldiers, including 85.000 Italians with tanks under the command of Marshall Rodolfo Graziani.
In Libya there is the 10th Army under Marshall Italo Balbo. He commands 6 infantry divisions and 8 tank battalions, in total 250,000 soldiers. They will start the invasion of Egypt beginning of August. The objectives are to cut off the Suez and to get a connection to East Africa. The British Western Desert Force of General Richard O'Connor includes 100,000 men.”
Ramcke: “What will be the course of the operation?”
Pariani: “Right now Balbo is building up a supply. Supply is the key in Africa. Then his troops will slowly advance to Sollum. On the way they will build forts and new magazines. The final invasion of Egypt will start as soon as the first German soldiers occupy English ground.”
Ramcke: “Why do plan to advance so slow, General Pariani? Why do you rely on forts?”
Pariani is laughing: “I see that you Germans do not have a clue about the desert warfare. You think we should blitz through the Libyan Dessert the way you Germans did it in France. I bet you would. The desert is different. You cannot blitz there. Everything depends on supply. Most of the time there is only one single road. You have to use it for your maneuvers as well as for your supply. That slows everything down. Besides that road there are little options for operations. Therefore you have to build stocks there before you start your operations. Why do we rely on forts? I tell you, my German friend! No one can control the desert. You can make small raids there, but you cannot stay there and you cannot build a front. Only thing you can do is occupy the strategic points like towns, crossings or oasis, then build up supply there and fortify them. Then you can do the next step. This procedure may be slow, but it is sure. We will push the English back. Finally, when the Germans land at England, we can occupy Egypt and then advance to the Middle East.”
Ramcke: “What are your plans on the Balkans, General?”
Pariani: “You know that the whole Balkans is our sphere of interest. Some things have to be adjusted there. Maybe a military operation will be necessary, but we hope we can avoid it.”
Ramcke: “What exactly does that mean?”
Pariani: “That means, that we will do what will be necessary when it will be necessary.”
Ramcke: “I see! General Pariani, can you tell me what you intend to do regarding Malta?”
Pariani: “Malta? Italy will claim the island once the peace negotiations with England will start.”
Ramcke: “No, I wonder if you have plans to invade the island. Isn’t it a roadblock on the way to Libya?”
Pariani: “Ah, now I see! Well, Malta is in range of our bombers. The English transferred most of their ships from Malta to Alexandria. There are only few planes there. No, Malta is not a threat. Maybe we will bomb it once or twice, but it will be complete meaningless once we take Egypt. Even now, with our air bases at Sicily and Bengasi we control the sea and air between Italy and Libya completely.”
The waiters interrupt the conversation by bringing the next course. Ramcke has to admit that he never has had a better meal before. Working for diplomacy has some advantages, too.
Finally the last course is done and the four gentlemen finish dinner with cigars, coffee and cognac.
Ramcke: “General Pariani, I want to thank you for your helpfulness. Your information is very precious to me.”
Paniani: “You are welcome! However, it may be easier for you to turn to our ambassador at Berlin, Signore Alfieri. He can give you any information you need.”
Ramcke: “Thank you for your advice, General! I will heed it. However, there is still one open issue. Do you see an opportunity where the German army can support you?”
Pariani: “Oberstleutnant, I honestly cannot see how the German army could help us. The navy has no ships here to step into the fight. Additionally, I think that our discussion made it clear that the German army has neither the experience nor the equipment to fight in the desert. Additionally our air force can handle this campaign all alone. If Germany insists on helping us I see several ways. First of all our intelligence services should cooperate closer. Any information about the English may ease our efforts. Secundo, as long as we haven’t taken the English positions in the Middle East we are a bit short of some resources; for example oil. Third, it would be advantageous to motorize more divisions. If the Germans could send us trucks, that would be helpful. Not necessary, but helpful. Most important, of course, will be that the Germans land on the British islands and beat the English on their own ground.”
Ramcke: “Although this is not my department, General Pariani, I will forward your wish. Do you see any options that we could support you with airborne operations?”
Pariani: “No!”
For the rest of the evening the four men do not talk about politics any more. It is late at night when they finally leave.
Oberstleutnant Otzen asks Ramcke: “What is your impression? Did you hear what you expected to hear?”
Ramcke: “I do not know. I have the feeling that this was only the official information.”
Otzen: “Tomorrow morning I will give you an overview about my impression of the Italian forces. Why did you talk about Malta? Do you really think it is important?”
Ramcke: “Maybe. Maybe I just noticed this island because it would be a nice target for an airborne operation.”
Otzen: “I do not have much information about Malta. I will try to find some more until tomorrow. In the evening we will meet Commander Ernesto Forza.”

This night Ramcke lies in his bed and thinks about the things he heard today. How could Germany help the Italians if they do not want any help? He has to make a proposal to Student, which will go straight to Göring and Hitler. He can hardly advice to do nothing. He must have a proposal. He will have to concentrate on the military aspects and leave the diplomatic hurdles to Hitler.

Welcome Kraxis and Pannonain!

Kraxis
08-03-2006, 13:26
I thought we were going to meet the Undersecretary of the Foreign Ministry...:dizzy2:
Oh well... This wasn't good. We met a blustering buffoon. And proud one to boot.
There isn't much we can do about this now, only hope thatthe Commander is more willing to cooperate with us. Senseless distrust isn't going to get us anywhere.

I feel like quoting 'Allo 'Allo "Dis was a greata mistakea!"

Franconicus
08-03-2006, 14:44
... a blustering buffoon. And proud one to boot....
:dizzy2:
Schocking! I cannot believe my eyes. Kraxis, you are talking about a well respected leader of a friendly army! A moderator using words you cannot use in the backroom without being punished!:no:

By the way, what did you expect? You heard some facts and a lot about the Italian attidute.

Kraxis
08-03-2006, 16:02
You should just know how even friends talked about each other if they were generals and diplomats... Shocking indeed... And as long as I don't call you that, which I certainly wouldn't, there is problem. He is a 'fictive' persona, I can rip into his personality all I want.~;)

I had expected a more cogenial and diplomatic behaviour. A show of friendship, if not a show of cooperation. This was one step from booting our good Oberstleutnant from the 'boot'.
Of course I did expect him to balk at any notion that Italy can't perform, which a question of direct help would be, more or less, at this point.

But then again I had mistaken the previous chapter, so that I thought he was the undersecretary of the Foreign Ministry, and I hadn't even noticed his title. Had I not made that mistake I would not have chosen him, but rather Mario Roatta.

Oh well... mistakes are always made in war.~:rolleyes:

AggonyDuck
08-03-2006, 16:38
Well it will be interesting to meet him after his illusions are shattered. :laugh4:

Franconicus
08-04-2006, 07:17
He is a 'fictive' persona, I can rip into his personality all I want.~;)
:book: No he isn't. He is a historical figure and he was Undersecretary and Head of the Staff. Therefore we owe him some respect!

Maybe the result of the interviews would be better if you could tell me what you want to know.

And I have forgotten the tasks for the weekend:
1) Get informations about Malta 1940
2) Prepare Ramcke's report for Student

Kraxis
08-04-2006, 12:56
:book: No he isn't. He is a historical figure and he was Undersecretary and Head of the Staff. Therefore we owe him some respect!
Yes yes, I know that. But he is being used in a fictive situation.
Anyway, we don't have any trouble giving Stalin a good one-over whenever he comes up in discussions, or Patton for that matter (the good with the bad).

As long as our character ACTS diplomatic, then no harm is done. But trust me diplomats never finish their sentences... They often want to add something to it that just isn't appropriate.

The info we got from the interview was certainly good enough, no problem there. We got to know what the Italians have, what their plans are and how their view the situation. But as to us coming down and helping them we just talked to the wrong guy. I don't mind that really, such happens and we have to deal with it.

King Kurt
08-07-2006, 13:00
I think Ramake's report should be a full on FJ coup de main on Rome - if they landed at lunchtime, they would have it all wraped up by the end of the cigars and coffee!!!

Seriously, I think our report should reflect that the Italians need our help, but do not want it - we should wait until they make a pig's ear of something then step in. Alternatively, we get Hitler to crack the whip. I suppose we must not use hindsight too much - at this time in 1940, it was generally thought that the Italians were quite competent and it was the disasters of later in the year that exposed their weaknesses. An alternative would be to identify an ally in the Balkans - Roumania?? - who might welcome our help and assistance.:2thumbsup:

SwordsMaster
08-07-2006, 15:12
Well, it seems clear that we must convince Hitler that intervention is needed to fuel another civil war in Spain. In the confusion we will be able to support whichever side we need to get to Gibraltar... The brits will either intervene or not in the new spanish war:

If they DO: they split their forces and we beat them on land which is what we prefer anyway.


If they DO NOT: as I say, in the confusion, either us or the Italians get to Gibraltar.


About the Italians. We have to somehow prevent them from splitting forces. Convince them that in the desert the best thing is to advance quickly, and that is what the Paratroopers to best. Take strongpoints and cutoff the thin british supply lines (that only road, our friend was tallking about). Maybe suggest a paratrooper landing in Suez or Alexandria to attempt to capture british ships in the port.

I actually have an idea for that, but that will come later.

Point out again that Malta is useless without both Gibraltar and Suez, and can do nothing to help or harm the italians' (or our own) offensive in either Africa or Europe.

Franconicus
08-07-2006, 15:15
Do not forget the main goal of the report: identify targets and make plans how to take them. If the Italians or Spaniards are not willing or able to support us, that is another story. Not Ramcke's business. Ramcke has to demonstrate that he has checked all options. I guess there is a lot to consider. Right now we have only visited Spain and Italy with a focus on Ginraltar and Malta. The Med is much more than that!

Keba
08-07-2006, 16:10
Perhaps we could drop by for a visit to Italian Africa, and perhaps inspect those 'glorious' troops that are supposed to sweep the Brits away with little trouble. Then we might have arguements for either sending, or not sending help to the Italians.

Perhaps we could later drop by Romania, but only if we have time, there is little to be done there, aside looking over the oilfields, which, while important, are safe from the allies who can't reach them, unless both Bulgaria and Greece and Turkey join the allies, which I doubt is likely at this stage of the war.

As for targets, Suez, Gibraltar and Malta are priorities, but Malta is a lesser one. Cyprus could be a good transfer point to Syria and the Middle East, but, again, it is of lower priority, not before Suez falls (if it falls). Our main task would be to aid the Italians, claim that it is while we prepare transports for the invasion of the British Isles, and so that our pilots and soldier get used to British tactics and equipment ... training, if you will. We really should be sending help to the Italians without appearing that they actually need the help.

Franconicus
08-07-2006, 16:33
Keba, let me quote:

Balkans: The OKW announces that members of the armed forces may not travel privately into one of the following countries: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania or Greece. Official journeys to Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland have to be approved by the Führer Headquarter.
If you want to visit Romania, you have to ask the Führer himself!!

- By the way, the English would do anything to attack the oilfields (air raid, land raid, sabotage). Churchill would not hesitate to violate the rights of a neutral state.
- And: There is a lot going on on the Balkans these days. Romania is not ours so far.

These are potential targets for the visit:

Albania (Italian)
Libya (Italian)
Rhodes (Italian)
Greece - (maybe Crete)
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia
Syria (Vichy)
Algeria or French Morocco (Vichy)
Turkey
Russia

Rodion Romanovich
08-07-2006, 18:33
I think Romania is the most important region at this time. However the business about Romanian alliance and access to the Ploesti oil fields is practically already fixed. Turkey - I doubt Turkey can be of any help until some more victories have been won - especially not unless key targets such as Gibraltar fall. Greece - we know that the Italians want those areas, so improving relations with the Greece will be of little use at this time. Of the remaining targets, I think Russia and Morocco are the most interesting that this time. Russia - striving for alliance or improved diplomatic relations, and Morocco - giving the French something in return for lending us bases in Morocco to strike Gibraltar. Now that Spain has refused to cooperate about Gibraltar, Morocco is our greatest hope of seizing this key target. I've said it before and say it again - taking Gibraltar will make everything we could possibly want to do in the Med later a lot easier. As I see it our long-term goals in the Med are (in order of decreasing importance):
1. accessing Middle east oil fields
2. wipe out the British presence in Africa
3. cutting off British South East Asia from the British homelands
4. hurting the British fleet
5. if possible get Turkey as an ally

As I see it, no. 2 is required to take the Suez, which is key to successfully completing no. 1. No. 3 is a side effect of completing no. 1 and no. 2. No. 4 will be a side effect of no. 1, 2 and 3 (especially no. 3 I think), and no. 5 will only be possible if we win some key victories, such as no. 2. So the sooner no. 2 is completed, the better - it's sort of "the critical path". No. 2 is the key to success in the entire Mediterranean sector, once no. 2 is completed the other objectives will be within our grasp in a matter of months. And in my opinion there are only two ways to carry out no. 2 - either assaults on Gibraltar and Malta ASAP, or sending ground troops to North Africa. As it seems now, the Italians are reluctant about help in Africa, so unless we find a way to take Gib and Malta, we're at the mercy of the Italians (with hindsight that means our last hope is for the Italians to screw up as soon as possible).

AggonyDuck
08-11-2006, 00:40
We should look into getting some sort of base in the Eastern Mediterranean. Either Yugoslavia or Greece would serve as a good base for operations in the Eastern Mediterranean under German leadership. I don't think it's good for us to rely to much on the Italians at this stage of the war.

Lord Winter
08-11-2006, 05:31
Going back to Malta it would proably require a division, our paratroopers and extensive air support. Perhasp if we promise the island to the Ittalians we could get some support from them? A proposed time line would be:

D-7: The air campigen begains. Bombers will target airfields, costal batterys and the garrision.
D-3 the paratroopers will move to a forward base in Italy
D-1: Para troopers land at dawn and destroy roads and costal batterys that the air missed. Naval forces move in to attack the RN at malta.
D-Day: The division lands at dawn, dive bomers provide inatial support.
H+4: The attack on the port starts.

AggonyDuck
08-11-2006, 12:45
About Malta, bombing the Airfield would be rather counter-productive. Our current tactics mean paratrooper drops to seize airfields and then send in the airlanding troops. So we're better off if the runways are kept in shape. ~:)

Keba
08-11-2006, 12:58
We don't really need an amphibious assault. Rather, the paras take the airfield and we call in the Luftlande (was it the 22. division? Can't remember, I know one division was operational by this stage, at the least). No need for anything more fancy, aside from the Italian fleet sailing into port once we have secured the isle.

JimBob
08-11-2006, 17:17
A mass air assault is all we need. Seizing Malta may not win the war for us, but it will give our paratroopers a chance to stretch their legs. And it will make our lives easier, and theirs harder. As to the Italians. Phrase the request like the Italians are doing us a huge favor by letting us use their island. Something along the lines of "please could we land on Malta because we really do need to test this weapon, Malta is an excelent place. Would you in your greatness allow us to land on Malta?"

AggonyDuck
08-12-2006, 11:29
Should we look into Crete and Cyprus too? They're rather important for the Eastern Mediterranean.

SwordsMaster
08-12-2006, 12:54
Should we look into Crete and Cyprus too? They're rather important for the Eastern Mediterranean.


We need bases in Greece to hit those, which we don't have yet.

I am still of the opinion that if we can't lock the mediterranean by cutting off supply from Suez and Gibraltar (specially Gibraltar, as that will delay all english ships that would need to sail around Africa, and would give our subs another base for both atolantic and mediterranean operations), it is useless to try and take the inner islands. Specially after our italian friend rightly pointed out that that is the italian sphere of influence.

We must convince the italians of the importance of letting us take and hold Gibraltar and Suez. Maybe sending in a force under italian command would do it. A force with its own experienced officers, etc, that would be strong, experienced and clever enough to be able to take the objectives even without italian help.

Kagemusha
08-12-2006, 22:23
I completely agree with Swordmaster. I still think most suitable way would be to use Wermacht to take Gibraltar.And use Fallschirmjagers to take Malta. I think some of us are hugely over estameting British power projecting ability at this point of war.World was stunned after the Blitzkrieg against France on WWII. Now for some reason i dont see that now,while everything is open for us at this point of war.

JimBob
08-13-2006, 06:33
You want Gib, then what is the plan to take it? How do we get troops there? Do we beg Franco? Or do we fly around him?

Keba
08-13-2006, 10:31
Spain is problematic, true. But, getting Franco's aid is not necessary, all that we need is access. In return, we offer food and engineers, possibilities of german businesses entering Spain and aiding in the rebuilding efforts. Perhaps even some equipment. Not to bring Spain into the war, but to aid our brothers in ideology.

Then, under such guises, we slowly begin moving troops and equipment into position. Perhaps we even lease a few airstrips near the Gibraltar, officially, just to keep the Brits there honest with a few bombs now and then. Secrecy would be important, but even if security was breached it wouldn't matter. Spain has plausable deniability ... all we did was lease a few airstrips, they had no knowledge of our troops being present.

In return, Franco recieves Gibraltar, after Britain surrenders, until that time, it is a German outpost, blocking the Med. In addition, we bind ourselves to aid the Spanish in reclaiming any territory that the British might traitorously claim from a neutral country.

While the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe prepare for that, we convince the Italians to take Malta to 'test new doctrines and equipment for the paratrooper corps in a combat situation'. The island would, of course, go to Italy, and Italian troops would garrison it, and the Italian flag woul be above the island. Also, in preparation for combat against Britain, we could offer to send a number of troops to North Africa, to 'become acquainted to British tactics and equipment for the eventual attack on the British Isles'. Those would, of course, be only a temporary assignement, to keep our troops in fighting trim while transports are being prepared for the Operation Seelowe.

SwordsMaster
08-13-2006, 12:37
You want Gib, then what is the plan to take it? How do we get troops there? Do we beg Franco? Or do we fly around him?


Not our problem. All the begging's on Hitler. We are just there to see if it is doable assuming all the other factors are favourable circumstances are in place. I mean we should know what kind of forces, etc we would need, but the actual diplomacy is not our thing.

Militarly speaking I believe we would need marines and transports, and it would be also nice to send out a couple of the big battleships to lay the groundworks before we move in. We would need a quick and brutal bombing both from sea and air, and then move in mountain troops, and marines once the mountain troops are engaged. The second wave would be composed of our own paras (to get them into some experience, and because they are elite soldiers). I imagine an operation a bit like Normandy landing, but with less casualties and with us taking the upper hand. If the italians give us a hand from inside the Med and open another marine spearhead or give our marines more covering fire from their own ships.... Which is possibly the cleverer option as it takes our own ships a lot more effort to get to Gibraltar than it would take the italians...

Rodion Romanovich
08-13-2006, 13:57
What worries me about a naval insertion is the fact that the British are moving more ships to Gibraltar at this time. How many ships will they have at Gibraltar at the possible time of the operation? Can the Italian fleet really fight all those ships AND shore batteries AND possibly also British submarines harassing along the way? I think the Italians will be more interested in making progress in their African campaigns rather than taking heavy losses for a square kilometer that will be given to Germany or Spain.

I believe that if Spain doesn't allow troop passage even for grain, protection promise and getting Gibraltar after a potential British surrender, then the Vichy French would be easier to convince. The French at home don't need to find out too much about German planes borrowing French airbases in Morocco, especially if we have the planes repainted before they're flown to the bases. The Vichy French leaders know they haven't got the power to resist even if we decided to borrow the bases by force, so if we just offer something interesting in return for their help I think they would hardly refuse. How about we give Gibraltar to the French after a British surrender? And let Spain know that there's a competition for Gibraltar to whichever part accepts military access at the lowest cost? Make both parts believe the other part has already accepted the deal ~:)

SwordsMaster
08-13-2006, 16:33
I believe that if Spain doesn't allow troop passage even for grain, protection promise and getting Gibraltar after a potential British surrender, then the Vichy French would be easier to convince. The French at home don't need to find out too much about German planes borrowing French airbases in Morocco, especially if we have the planes repainted before they're flown to the bases. The Vichy French leaders know they haven't got the power to resist even if we decided to borrow the bases by force, so if we just offer something interesting in return for their help I think they would hardly refuse. How about we give Gibraltar to the French after a British surrender? And let Spain know that there's a competition for Gibraltar to whichever part accepts military access at the lowest cost? Make both parts believe the other part has already accepted the deal ~:)


That is actually a very good idea.I like it. Why didn't I think of that? :2thumbsup:

JimBob
08-13-2006, 18:19
Do remember that moving more than a division in Spain will be very difficult. And we are tasked with coming up with the rough operational plan for the attack. I like blackmailing Spain.

Kagemusha
08-13-2006, 18:41
Here is how the German HQ planned the attack and i think its a solid plan:

Operation Felix: Assault on Gibraltar

Following a number of detailed reconnaissance missions by officers wearing civilian clothing and studying the Rock from Spanish soil as well as seaward perspectives, the Wehrmacht in the summer and autumn of 1940 drew up detailed plans for Operation Felix, the assault on Gibraltar. Only failure at the highest levels of diplomacy prevented the operation from occurring at the beginning of 1941.

German Plans

Under the overall command of Field Marshal Walter von Reichenau, the German plan called for two corps to move into Spain in the middle of January 1941 with the consent of Generalissimo Francisco Franco. General Rudolf Schmidt's XXXIX Corps would cover the flank of the Gibraltar assault against any British intervention: the 16th Motorized Division would concentrate in the vicinity of Valladolid, the 16th Panzer Division around Caceres, and the SS Totenkopf Division at Sevilla.

General Ludwig Kuebler's XLIX Corps would control the actual attack on the Rock. The assault forces would comprise the Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiment, the 98th Regiment of the 1st Mountain Division, 26 medium and heavy artillery battalions, three observation battalions, three engineer battalions, two smoke battalions, a detachment of 150 Brandenburgers, and up to 150 radio-controlled midget tanks ("Goliaths") packed with high explosives.

Two additional divisions were earmarked to cross the Straits of Gibraltar and garrison Morocco after the successful completion of Felix.

Due to the limited capacity of the Spanish rail system (which was not of the standard European gauge), much of the German ground force would move by road to its objectives.

The Luftwaffe would contribute Ju 88As, Stukas, Messerschmitts, three light AA battalions, and three heavy AA battalions. The Kriegsmarine would cooperate by using U-boats to interfere with British naval movement and emplacing coastal batteries to further discourage the Royal Navy.

From staging areas on the Spanish border near Bayonne, the ground troops would cross the frontier simultaneously with an initial raid by Ju 88As flying from Bordeaux against British vessels in the Gibraltar anchorage. While the Ju 88As carried out their mission, Ju 87s and Me 109s would transfer to airbases at Sevilla and finish the job of sinking British ships or driving them away from Gibraltar.

With its flank protected by XXXIX Corps, XLIX Corps would move into position for the attack. A tremendous barrage was scheduled to knock out every known defensive emplacement in the Rock, followed by the arrival of the Luftwaffe for a succession of Stuka strikes against positions still firing when the assault troops began moving forward. German artillery fire would methodically demolish surviving casemates while smoke-generating units shrouded Grossdeutschland and the 98th Mountain Regiment. Due to the extremely limited frontage of the position, only those two regiments plus supporting engineers would be committed in the actual assault.

Meanwhile, the Brandenburgers -- disguised as sailors abandoning a sinking ship -- intended to land inside British defenses in small boats and clear the way for the assault troops.

British Defenses

Had Operation Felix taken place during January 1941 as planned, what opposition would the attackers have faced?

In September 1939 the garrison comprised two British battalions: 2nd The Kings Regiment and 2nd Somerset Light Infantry. 4th Devonshire arrived in May 1940 and 4th Black Watch in July 1940, so by January 1941 four infantry battalions were in place. (Later in the war this strength grew to 1st and 2nd Gibraltar Brigades with additional battalions.)

3rd Heavy Regiment, Royal Artillery (previously "Gibraltar Coast Defenses" and later redesignated 3rd Coast Regiment) controlled 4th, 26th, and 27th Batteries with 8 x 9.2-inch guns, 7 x 6-inch guns, and 6 x twin 6-pounders. (Artillery strength also grew considerably later in the war.)

In September 1939 two AA batteries, the 9th and 19th, defended Gibraltar from air attack with 4 x 3-inch, 4 x 3.7-inch, and 2 x 40mm guns. HQ 10th AA Regiment was later formed to control the two batteries. The 82nd Heavy AA Regiment arrived in July 1940 with three batteries (156th, 193rd, and 256th) including 16 3.7-inch guns, 8 x 40mm Bofors guns, and the first radar sets. 3rd Searchlight Battery also arrived in July. Some shuffling of assets and re-numbering of units followed (including departure of HQ 10th AA Regiment, but no batteries); however, this AA strength was not further reinforced until March 1941.

Because there were no fighters based at Gibraltar during this time (and no facilities for supporting them), AA fire was the only defense against the bombing of Gibraltar (including Vichy French air raids in 1940, but that's another story).

This information is from : http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/felix.shtml

JimBob
08-13-2006, 23:46
Hitler's directive 18. The plans for Gib.

http://www.gibnet.com/texts/hitler.htm

Franconicus
08-14-2006, 10:48
Chapter 19 – At the German embassy
Italy, June 25th 1940

Is it the heat of the night that keeps Ramcke awake, or is it the report he has to write? When Otzen picks him up at the next morning he feels like knocked out. Otzen brings him to his office at the embassy. He orders a good breakfast, and then the two officers talk about the discussion of the day before.
Otzen: “What do you think about our dinner last night?”
Ramcke grimaces: “Well, the food was superb.”
Otzen laughs out loud: “Yes, and Pariani was a bloody bastard. I tell you, the Italian staff is nothing than a bunch of baboons. I bet they will loose their arrogance as soon as they face the British. Oh how I hate talking to these bumptious braggadocios.”
Ramcke: “Life of a diplomat is not always a piece of cake, or should I say a superb menu with five courses? Can you tell me the truth about the Italian army?”
Otzen: “First of all, you have to understand, that Mussolini needs a military victory. He is dreaming of a new Roman Empire. He hopes to gain the British and French positions in the Mediterranean Sea. However, he and his staff know that Italy is not prepared for a war against England. Nevertheless, he needs a victory or he can forget his claims. However, if he looses a campaign, he may even loose his head. His government is not as strong as Hitler’s and he knows that.”
Ramcke: “Then he should be glad if Germany assists him.”
Otzen: “No. Germany had its victory. Mussolini must have his own one or he will not get anything of the prey.”
Ramcke: “Then, how capable is the Italian army in reality?”
Otzen: “The Regia Marina: Pariani gave you the numbers. However, I doubt that all of the battleships are ready for combat. Additionally, they have no radar and only few air defense. In general the Italian technology is bad, the training is bad, and the command structure is bad. I talked with many admirals. Regarding arrogance they can easily take on the British. However, I could hear that they have a lot of respect for the Royal Navy, maybe too much respect. I doubt that they will risk an open battle. Furthermore, in case the Italians would loose their battleships, the English could attack the Italian coast whenever they like to. After the elimination of the French fleet the Royal Navy is outnumbered. Nevertheless Adm. Cunningham is following an offensive strategy. The first push was from June 11th to 14th. The RN squadron passed Crete and headed for Tobruk and Benghazi. Accidentally, an Italian submarine spotted them and sunk a cruiser. Nevertheless the British were able to attack Tobruk. The Italian fleet sailed from Sicily but could not find the English. This is typically. The fleet is not able to detect the enemy in time. If the enemy is spotted by air reconnaissance, the line item specification is so improper, that it guides the ships into the wrong direction.
The Italians will not bring their supply to Libya without fighting. Malta does not play an important role at the moment. What worries me most are the English carrier based planes. I do not know how effective these planes are, but I fear that they will cause a lot of trouble”
Ramcke: “What about the air force.”
Otzen: “The Regia Aeronautica? 1,400 planes, some of them modern. They have nothing comparable to the Me109 or the Ju87, but the bombers are alright. Lack of fuel! Furthermore the training is not as good as in the Luftwaffe, not at all. No night flight training, no dive training, no low altitude raid training. The Italian cities have no real air defense.”
Ramcke: “The Italian Army?”
Otzen: “Awful. Last fall, when the war had begun, Mussolini postulated an increase of the numbers of divisions. That led to the Pariani reform. The numbers of infantry regiments per divisions were reduced from three to two. Additionally there is one artillery regiment. Usually, one regiment does not have three battalions, as it should have, but only two. Therefore most Italian divisions have only four infantry battalions, instead of nine. The artillery regiment has only two instead of three medium battalions. Therefore, an Italian division is much weaker than a German or English one. With this means Pariani could increase the numbers of divisions to 73. However, the whole structure of command is in disorder now. The divisions are too small, so most of the lead is done at the army corps.
The equipment of the divisions is pitiful. Of the 49 divisions that are positioned on the mainland only 19 are completely equipped. The artillery is from the big war, the best guns are booties from the Austrian army. Most of the divisions are not motorized. There are three tank divisions. Main tank is the L2/33, a 3t tankette with poor armor and some machine guns.
In Libya there are 4 motorized divisions with 300 tanks. 230 are L3/30, equipped with machine guns, 70 M11/39 with a 3.7mm gun. The tanks can only operate on roads. Can you imagine this?
I can give you a memorandum from December ’39. It says that if the industrial production can be increased the Italian army will be combat-ready in 1944.”
Ramcke: “No, thank you! The way you tell the story makes it sound a little bit different. What is the Italian plan regarding the Balkans?”
Otzen: “I doubt that there is a real operational plan. However, Mussolini must have a military triumph. A defeat may end his government. If the British are too strong, he may decide to attack either Yugoslavia or Greece. He is very angry because Hitler did never inform him before he started operations. Therefore I doubt that Mussolini will inform us. Furthermore Hitler’s agreement with Stalin is raising Mussolini’s suspicion. He fears that we will divide the Balkans without taking care about the Italian interests.”
Ramcke reflects: “The Italians badly need our help, but they would never accept it. What can we do?”
Otzen: “That is a tough one! We have three options. We could send some small elite units to support the Italians, small enough so that the Italians can claim the victory, elite enough to be effective. Maybe Fallschirmjäger. We could operate from Sicily, Libya or the Dodecanese against Malta or Crete. Or even against Syria or Alexandria. We could say that the intention is to demonstrate German-Italian cooperation, kind of PR campaign.”
Ramcke: “And the other options?”
Otzen: “We could wait until our Italian friends come a cropper. Then, however, we would have to act fast, before Fascism collapses and before the English can take too much advantage.”
Ramcke: “You talked about three options.”

Otzen: “Of course we do not have to care about the Italian army if we simply invade the British Islands and arrest the Queen.”
Ramcke: “As simple as this. Why didn’t I hit on it? I guess I have to think about the first two options. What is the schedule today?”

Otzen: “We will meet Ernesto Forza this evening. Coincidentally, he is here at Rome, but he has to work until the evening. There is no program for the afternoon. I could give you some interesting documents about the Italian army.”
Ramcke: “Thank you! I’d rather take a walk through the town. I will return this evening.”
He leaves the embassy and takes a walk through the town. Rome, once the capitol of the world, still one of the most beautiful cities! Although he is wearing his uniform, nobody seems to care. Many men are wearing uniforms, all kind of different ones.
Half an hour later Ramcke is sitting in front of a café. While he enjoys the Mediterranean sun and the ‘DOLCE VITA’ he forces himself to think about his mission. In the telegram Student sounded a bit angry. Ramcke has to send him an intermediate result. However, what does he have to report?

First he has to declare the importance of Gibraltar:

A) Gibraltar has no strategic value.
B) Gibraltar has a medium strategic value. However, the seizure of Gibraltar would have some drawbacks, too.
C) Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean Sea. Furthermore, the seizure of Gibraltar would have a great impact on the general strategy, especially on the Battle of the Atlantic.

Then he has to make a plan:
1) To occupy Gibraltar it takes an army corps. A surprise attack cannot be done. Gibraltar will fall after a long siege. Some boundaries have to be guaranteed, for example the support of the Spaniards and a flanking force towards Portugal.
2) Gibraltar can be taken by a combined air strike air borne operation. There are no fighter planes and only weak air defense. First target has to be the Royal Navy. If the ships leave the harbor, the garrison will fall immediately.
3) Best option is to ignore Gibraltar. The isthmus can be controlled by bombers, stationed on Spanish airfields. This would have the same effect and would lower the risk of high casualties.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3342/cv3303yz3.jpg

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8572/m1139vw4.jpg

AggonyDuck
08-14-2006, 12:39
First he has to declare the importance of Gibraltar:

B) Gibraltar has a medium strategic value. However, the seizure of Gibraltar would have some drawbacks, too.

Then he has to make a plan:

3) Best option is to ignore Gibraltar. The isthmus can be controlled by bombers, stationed on Spanish airfields. This would have the same effect and would lower the risk of high casualties.

I think I've made my views about Gibraltar pretty clear, so I won't bother explaining my choices.

Additionally it seems like to start any operation in the mediterranean requires Hitler to persuade either Spain or Vichy France to give us military access and bases or somehow getting Italians to accept German assistance. Otherwise it is likely that we might have to wait until spring 1941 to get some sort of base of operation in the mediterranean and by then most of our resources will be directed towards the coming offensive against USSR.

Kraxis
08-14-2006, 14:06
I agree with Duck on the strategic aspect.

B) Gibraltar has a medium strategic value. However, the seizure of Gibraltar would have some drawbacks, too.

But on the planning stage, while I agree on the political ramifications, we still have to call it as we see it. Hence...

2) Gibraltar can be taken by a combined air strike air borne operation. There are no fighter planes and only weak air defense. First target has to be the Royal Navy. If the ships leave the harbor, the garrison will fall immediately.

Though I doubt it will fall at once if the ships leave. British troops aren't timid ones and they will fight until they have no other option but death or surrender. So the garrison will fight as long as it is possible, ships or no ships, but the ships are the most important part of the operation.

JimBob
08-14-2006, 16:05
B)
3)

And maybe the FJ could have a use against Russia.

SwordsMaster
08-14-2006, 16:35
C) Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean Sea. Furthermore, the seizure of Gibraltar would have a great impact on the general strategy, especially on the Battle of the Atlantic.




That is the one. We need Gib as a base for both our planes and subs. We can use it to force Spain's position if we have to as well, and maybe even threaten Portugal if needs be. Morocco is also under threat, and the disruption that it will cause the british ships with the detour around Africa and an extra submarine base will be enormous and could be key to the war.

It seems to me that the key to beating the empire is by dismembering it, and so if we keep the Isles and the colonies separated by giving ourselves more opportunities to strike their convoys, this will be more easily achieved.

Besides, the brits will have one less base in the Atlantic to defend those convoys, and their mediterranean fleet will be trapped with nothing in terms of supplies that is not threatened by the italians in Africa.

Gibraltar is key.



2) Gibraltar can be taken by a combined air strike air borne operation. There are no fighter planes and only weak air defense. First target has to be the Royal Navy. If the ships leave the harbor, the garrison will fall immediately.


Air strike and seaborne assault. We could actually start a relationship with the italians (they lend us some ships and marines for Gibraltar, we lend them some paras for operations in Malta/Balcans/Africa).

Also we should offer them our air recon services for the med in exchange for their bases. They will still be able to claim a victory if they engage the brits, and we can make sure that they engage them in terms in which they can win.

Lord Winter
08-14-2006, 17:12
B 2

Rodion Romanovich
08-14-2006, 17:26
B 2, but the other plans would also work, it just depends on which plan we prefer and which plan we can get the needed diplomatic deals for. No. 1 would be best at keeping casualties down. I'm playing with the thought of perhaps using no. 3, bomb British ships, then put them at a dilemma of either replacing them or withdrawing. If they replace them, we get new good chances of damaging many ships, if not, we can take Gibraltar rather easily. That could be repeated over and over for a month, before finally taking Gibraltar using plan no. 2.

Keba
08-14-2006, 19:22
C1 Gibraltar is a key factor in the campaign; taking it with paras is not feasable, and Germany does not have sufficently efficent naval bombers to prevent the British from moving their fleet through the passage, meaning that we need ground troops there.

We cannot drop a few tank divisions to aid the Italians, but we can aid them in a less ... direct manner. Cutting off British supplies ... and, as suggested, sending in small units to aid the Italians without appearing to aid them. The campaign in Africa could do wonders for our Fallshimjeger force, and would allow the kinks in the system to be removed before any serious engagement. We could also send the Italians the blueprints for the PzKpfw.III, which has proven it's worth in France (although the Brits can knock one out at 500m, the numbers of anti-tank guns in Africa would be somewhat less, I believe). Naturally, we keep the PzKpfw.IV design for ourselves.

Also, I do believe we've got some excess French and Polish equipment about now, we could possibly send some off to the Italians. Cannons, tanks, maybe even some French aircraft. Possibly even some of those trucks that Germany was so keen on.

Oh, and a minor nitpick, Britain at this time, I believe has a King, not a Queen.

Kagemusha
08-14-2006, 22:22
C1. I think Gibraltar is a key stratecig location.But the army should be used to take it.We need heavy artillery,pioneers and smoke to take such a fortified defence position.Altough i think the aerial attacks against it should be started as soon as possible.

Franconicus
08-16-2006, 12:05
The result so far:
A) 0 ; B) 5; C) 3;
1) 2; 2) 4; 3) 2;
Some votes are still missing.

P.S.: Kage-san: excellent information about the German plans. Can you get the same for Malta?

IrishArmenian
08-16-2006, 17:29
B
2

Franconicus
08-18-2006, 12:06
Chapter 20 – An afternoon at Rome
Italy, June 25th 1940

Finally, Ramcke makes up his mind. He will report to Student that Gibraltar has a medium strategic importance. However, the fall of Gibraltar would have some negative effects, too. The fortress could be taken by a combined air strike / air borne operation. This evening he will meet the commander of Italian Special Forces, and then write a report about Italy and Malta. Tomorrow he will leave Italy, although he has not made up his mind where to go. Ramcke is worried. Time flies and he has still no positive results for a German engagement.

He pays his bill and leaves the café. On the sidewalk he passes a black limousine. The doors open and two uniformed men step out. They compel Ramcke to get in the car. After a quarter of an hour they stop in front of a building. When they enter, Ramcke sees the label: OVRA. They walk through a long sequence of corridors until they finally enter an office. Two men are sitting in the room. One of them, wearing a uniform with a lot of decorations, offers Ramcke to take a seat:

“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, we are pleased that you accept our invitation. I am Arturo Bocchini, the head of the Italian police. Here at my side is Mario Roatta, our military attaché in Germany.”

Ramcke shakes the hands of the two men. Although in plain clothes Roatta looks a lot more important than the head of the police.

“We would like to learn more about your mission. Maybe we can support you!”
Ramcke: “Thank you very much. Maybe you could answer my questions first. How did you get information about my journey and what is the concern of the Italian police.”

Roatta: “Oberstleutnant, first of all let me apologize the way we did our invitation. Sometimes Arturo is missing the right tone. Of course the Italian police, especially OVRA, knows that you visit our country. Didn’t you make a first stop when you traveled to Spain?”
He makes a short break.
Roatta: “Don’t get us wrong! This is not a police questioning. We are members of the Fascist party and we have some questions as, let’s say, committed patriots.”

Ramcke: “Then what is your concern?”

Roatta: “We are concerned about the war. Hitler coerced Mussolini to enter the war, although he knew that Italy was not prepared. Now we hear that German officers canvass the Mediterranean to prepare a German military operation. We are concerned that Italy may loose in the end, regardless if Germany looses or wins.”

Ramcke: “What do you mean?”

Roatta: “I mean that Italy is obviously not ready to defeat the British. If we loose the fight, this could end Fascism and lure the country on to destruction. However, the same would happen if the Germans take the lead in the Mediterranean Sea. Therefore, Oberstleutnant Ramcke, I ask you, is Germany willing to respect our sphere of interest?”

Ramcke: “Maybe I am not the right person to answer this question. As far as I know Hitler just wants to bring the British on their knees. He has no ambitions here. He thinks that the Italians could beat the British if they get some support; maybe the support of the Fallschirmjäger and the Luftwaffe. That is why he sent me, an officer of the Fallschirmjäger. To find out how we can support you!”

Bocchini: “How do you figure this?”

Ramcke: “There are several options. We could do airborne operations almost everywhere at the Mediterranean Sea. It could be Crete or Southern Greece as well as somewhere along the coast of Africa. It depends on you! Maybe Malta could be the right objective to train our cooperation.”

Roatta: “Well, we will think about your proposal. Maybe I can get some information about Malta. I will send it to you. Oberstleutnant Ramcke, thank you once again for this discussion. A driver will bring you back to town.”

When Ramcke leave the office Roatta asks him from behind: “Why don’t the Germans want Franco to enter the war?”
Ramcke: “Don’t they?”
Roatta: “I have heard that a German officer gave this advice to Franco.”
Ramcke: “I do not know.”

In the evening Ramcke meets Ernesto Forza, the young commander of theDecima Flottiglia MAS. Forza is a very capable, highly motivated officer. He wants to know everything about the missions of the German Fallschirmjäger. Then he gives information about his special unit.
La Decima is a unit of Italian command frogman. Forza talks about scuba diving, about the siluri a lenta cors (SLC) a manned torpedo, about the Motoscafo da turismo modificato (MTM), a small motor assault boats with a 300 kg charge of TNT. This sounds very fantastic. Could this small units really attack the British battle fleet sucessful?

Forza: “At the beginning, the old admirals were very sceptical. Therfore we proposed a test. We would attack an Italian battleship in the guarded harbor of La Spazia. Of course we did not use real explosives, but the guards on the ships had real guns. The admirals enforced the guards and told them to be watchful. Nothing happened and all thought that we had cancelled the operation. At the next morning, however, the blind mines were positioned under the body of the ships. Additionally, we had demounted the propellers. Nobody had noticed us. Since then we get all support we need.
Of course we have some difficulties, too. We can only attack ships that stand sill. Therfore we have to penetrate the harbors. To get there we use adapted submarines. Currently we are preparing operations against Gibraltar and Alexandria. We have a secret base in Spain and another on the Dodecanese, of course. In the future we will also install a secret base in Africa, opposite of Gibraltar.”

Ramcke thinks that what he hears is very unlikely. However, isn’t it similar to the story of the Fallschirmjäger. Wasn’t their success unlikely, too? Anyway, Ramcke likes the Italian officer and his spirit, that reminds him of the spirit of the Fallschirmjäger. They end their meeting with a bar tour. Captain Faggioni, commander of a MTM, joins them. When the bars close, the four officers are still discussing plans about a combined airborne, sub-marine assault to shake the British position in the Mediterranean.

Before Ramcke goes to bed, he makes sure that the plane will be ready to take off. His visit in Italy is over, although he has not made any conclusions. He has to decide where to go next, first. He deliberates the alternatives. He could visit the Italian colonies that will be bases for the coming operations. He could either go to Libya or to Rhodes. Or he could visit Greece. Maybe the Peloponnese or Crete. France is another player, now that the armistance is signed. Maybe he should visit Morocco; or Syria? Or maybe he should try and contact the new French government in France? What about Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Turkey. All of them could become important for the Mediterranean Theatre. And Russia. Shouldn’t he care about Russia?

Rodion Romanovich
08-18-2006, 12:24
France or Morocco - where would it be best to start? A wild guess is Morocco so I say Morocco... Russia is important but I suggest a visit there is best postponed until after the situation in Morocco has been checked.

Kraxis
08-18-2006, 12:37
Not an easy option... But I will say Greece.
Yugoslavia isn't terribly united, Greece however is the local bastion. They can't be talked into submission. So we will need to know how strong they are, for at some point they will enter the war (unwillingly perhaps but still).

From Greece there are easy options to go to the Dodecanese, Rhodes, Crete and all the other areas in the east Med. So should we becom unwanted we have plenty of option to chose from for a fast extraction, yet with some chance of savaging the situation.

Franconicus
08-18-2006, 13:48
I think we are welcome at Greece, as long as we do not come from or go to Italian teritory!

Keba
08-18-2006, 17:54
We cannot afford to go to Syria, it is too close to Britsh territory, and might warn them that we actually do want the Syrians on our side. Which we, of course do, but only after initial victories in Africa. Turkey needs a overwhelming victory of one side or the other to choose, something we don't have, yet. Yugoslavia has it's own problems. Bulgaria is ambitious, and will join later. France doesn't have an army, and it's navy is too valuable, it might be more worth later, but for now it is best left alone. I really don't see what might be interesting about Morocco, except for base.

I say Russia. Should Russia enter the Axis, we would find more than one advantage. Britain would fall, our forces could strike from the Caucaus and take the Middle East by storm, maybe even hit India. Gain the trust of Stalin, make him believe that Germany is his greatest ally ... and then stab him straight in the heart, hit Russia, and destroy it, free it's people from the Communist yoke.

SwordsMaster
08-18-2006, 18:14
Turkey!

Franconicus
08-21-2006, 14:57
Chapter 21 – Leaving Rome
Berlin, June 26th, 1940

Next morning Ramcke feels like dying. He is so sick that he cannot remember how many bars they had, but he remembers that Ernesto is a hard drinking man. For a moment he wonders if he should postpone his trip, but then self-control gets the upper hand.

Otzen picks him up and brings him to the airport. He does not look any better. He gives Ramcke some reports.

First there are some notes from his office at Berlin. He forces himself to read them on the way to the airport:

In Egypt: Egyptian government resigns

In French Indochina... The Japanese put pressure on the French authorities in Indochina to block the transit of supplies to the Chinese Nationalists. They wish the rail line into China closed and a Japanese mission to be allowed in to inspect this.
In the United States... New considerably increased taxes are introduced which bring an additional 2,200,000 into the tax roll that have never formerly paid income tax. These increases of course reflect the armament expenditure.

A new wave of German submarines in the Biscay and the Channel. U 32, U 47, U 25, U 38, U 28, U 51 und U 30 attack several convoys and single ships.

Hitler urges Mussolini to capture Suez

Turkish government declares non-belligerency

Then there is a report from Roatta:

Malta

Three islands: Comino, Gozo and Malta. Malta with a size of 246 square kilometers has 250,000 inhabitants. Valletta, the capitol with 23,000 inhabitants, is placed on a peninsula around the so called Grand Harbor. On this peninsula there are 50% of the populations. Malta has three airports, Ta Quali, Hal Far and Luqa. Only Hal Far is actually ready.

The British have four infantry battalions on the island. They have poor equipment: 12 wooden tanks, 60 guns from WW1, the transport means are bicycles. Additionally there is the Royal Malta Artillery (RMA) and the King’s own Malta Regiment (KOMR). Most soldiers are placed at the northern shore, where an invasion is expected.

The British try to increase their numbers with volunteers. In total there are 5,500 soldiers.

The air defense is weak. There is a lack of light guns and searchlights. The island is defenseless against any bomber raid that comes below the minimum range of the heavy batteries.

The coastal batteries are excellent; however, there are only 14. Air defense and coastal batteries are focused around the Valletta area.

The air force consists of maybe a dozen biplanes. The Royal Navy has transferred most ships to Alexandria. There are only few submarines and destroyers.

The British government did not prepare the defense of Malta. As long as France was at war, Malta was not important at all. The British government has decided to give Malta up in case of an invasion. However, the British commander at Malta does not know that.

Malta is within the range of the Italian air force based on Sicily. The flight from Sicily to Grand Harbor takes 20 minutes.

Finally Ramcke reaches the airport. This time there are no controls. An Italian officer brings him straight to his plane. He says hello to his pilot. Now is the moment to decide where to fly:

A) Morocco
B) Vichy
C) Greece
D) Russia
E) Turkey?

Rodion Romanovich
08-21-2006, 15:30
B) Russia

edit: agree with Keba

Keba
08-21-2006, 15:54
C) Greece

Going to Greece would be a mistake (especially from Italy, BIG mistake), Morocco should be on hold until we are certain of our actions about Gibraltar, or else we might warn the Brits, Vichy is next to useless militarily, except for the navy, and we might want to keep the navy out, the Italians would be somehwat insulted if we insisted on the French moving in, so it's better to retain it for later in the war, maybe Seelowe. Turkey will remain neutral until we prove we can win the war (probably by taking the Suez). So, Russia it should be, in my humble opinion, but then, I'm having a blast imagining Panthers and T-34s running over the Brits jointly.

EDIT: Changed vote to Greece, Russia disqualified ...

Kraxis
08-21-2006, 16:28
Italy might not be considered a friend of Grece at the moment, but it is hardly THAT bad. Besides we are not Italians, so if we seek direct contact with the Greeks they might in fact be positive. They could even see this as an opportunity to sneak info regarding Italy out of us. Never underestimate anyone, and use their own ambitions to your own advantage.

Further, Russia isn't about to wage war with anybody! The debacle with Finland really gave them some perspective as to what their forces can do currently. Stalin is scared pantless of prospects of war so soon. Chances are nothing will ever come from dealing with the SU currently. At best we can secure more resources (which would be great, but not what we are seeking).

Greece!

King Kurt
08-21-2006, 16:46
I think our hero should go to Turkey.
I don't see the point of going to Russia as a lowly FJ officer is not going to ngociate overnight an alliance with the russians and the FJ would not be contemplating an action against them currently.
Greece is out the question as we are in Italy
Morocco also as things seem a little fraught with the Spanish.
As for Vichy - I would imagine that things are currently in turmoil and our arrival could cause an upset - like some zealous local official arresting our hero. Also. I see little of interest here currently.
So turkey it is - we should find out what the current situation is and explore possible opportunities - especially bringing the Turks in our side by a possible coup de main by the FJ from some secret base - crete? cyprus? it could be offered to Turkey in the long run. It would be interesting to see if we bump into a local facist faction - as our meeting in Italy.
Our friend has been stirring a bit of a hornet's nest in his travels, so let us see if something a little quieter and more descrete can be achieved.
Franc - how long before our report/ return to Germany?

Due to my holiday I missed the discussions re Gib last week - for what it is worth my vote would have been B3 - which would not have been decisive as B2 won the day. personaly I can't see an airbourne invasion of Gib working - even with air superiority - The garrison will sit in its fortifications and slaughter the FJ as they land.:2thumbsup:

Keba
08-21-2006, 19:09
Further, Russia isn't about to wage war with anybody! The debacle with Finland really gave them some perspective as to what their forces can do currently. Stalin is scared pantless of prospects of war so soon. Chances are nothing will ever come from dealing with the SU currently. At best we can secure more resources (which would be great, but not what we are seeking).

Not all wars are won by military might, but by resources, industry, determination and skill. Russia need not fight, simply provide the oil, steel, coal and other strategic resources for Germany, also, we might be able to get them to produce equipment for the Wehrmach, Kriegsmarine and even Luftwaffe. Their industry would be most useful, and, in exchange we would aid the Communists in a number of ways, from German improvement of Russian industry onward. If the Russians were to even loan troops to Germany we would have the upper hand ... maybe air-defense units for German cities, nothing critical. In return, we could train their troops and officers properly in the Prussian fashion. Also, we would be able to provide aid to the Japanese directly, including airbases in the East, allowing us to exploit our second-greatest advantage to it's fullest. It would also allow us to trade tech with the Japs directly, perhaps including Jap torpedoes and German radar equipment (maybe learn how to build carriers properly in exchange for maybe jet engine tech).

The better we present this idea to Hitler, the more chances we have of actually convincing him not to go through Barbarossa and doom the Third Reich prematurely.

IrishArmenian
08-21-2006, 22:28
Russia.

Kagemusha
08-21-2006, 22:47
You guys seem to be forgetting the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. We are in alliance with Soviet Union at this point.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_Ribbentrop_Pact

Kraxis
08-21-2006, 23:20
Not all wars are won by military might, but by resources, industry, determination and skill. Russia need not fight, simply provide the oil, steel, coal and other strategic resources for Germany, also, we might be able to get them to produce equipment for the Wehrmach, Kriegsmarine and even Luftwaffe. Their industry would be most useful, and, in exchange we would aid the Communists in a number of ways, from German improvement of Russian industry onward. If the Russians were to even loan troops to Germany we would have the upper hand ... maybe air-defense units for German cities, nothing critical. In return, we could train their troops and officers properly in the Prussian fashion. Also, we would be able to provide aid to the Japanese directly, including airbases in the East, allowing us to exploit our second-greatest advantage to it's fullest. It would also allow us to trade tech with the Japs directly, perhaps including Jap torpedoes and German radar equipment (maybe learn how to build carriers properly in exchange for maybe jet engine tech).

The better we present this idea to Hitler, the more chances we have of actually convincing him not to go through Barbarossa and doom the Third Reich prematurely.
And as KK said, who on earth is going to listen to a lowly Oberstleutnant who has little actual power to negotiate? The Soviet system is topheavy, we all know that. Would we ever get an audience (a fitting word in this case) with either Stalin, Molotov or the top military leadership? A snowball's chance in Hell!

Russia is a dead end for us. We are already getting rather large shipments of grain, oils, coal and steel. Only when invasion loomed did Stalin order more shipments... out of fear... We have no actual stuff to negotiate with (certainly not political, Hitler will never agree to that with his arch-enemy, don't forget his views on the Soviets), the FJ have nothing to do in Russia that landforces can't do better (we aren't exactly mobile, we are on foot aside from the drop), and we don't have the power to actually threaten the Soviet Union. There is nothing there...

Greece is afraid of Italy (rightfully so). They are also willing to do a lot of stuff to keep the Italians out and away. Since we (Germany) are the senior partner in the alliance with Italy, it isn't too far fetched that Greece will try to get us to strongarm Italy to stand down. Especially if we come off friendly (and as the calm negotiator) and rather interested in certain Greek services.
If we try to cajole military intel out of them they will get angry for sure (allied with Italy and getting intel? A prelude to war), and we will be on our way to either a prison or Germany for a courtmartial. But this isn't about Greece itself but she can offer us.
She has every reason to work with us if we don't walk over the line.

But for all reason's sake don't go to Russia, we can't accomplish anything there. And Hitler won't get happy if we go and try to make a deal he isn't in on, or has sactioned.

SwordsMaster
08-21-2006, 23:32
Turkey!!

Turkey can be convinced to join the war earlier, and there are positions in Turkey from where a paradrop in the british or french middle east is possible. Or into Russia. Or maybe it is possible to take Stambul.

I could secon Greece, but I fail to see what can they offer us that Italy cannot do better.

Keba
08-21-2006, 23:39
Hm, I agree. Although there is little else to vote for. We have a choice of what we would rather have.

Strongarming Italy would not be a good choice, even if it did get us airbases and ports (and shipyards) in the Med ... I mean, the Italians are easily offended, and if we strong-arm them, then they are even less likely to listen to us, thus throwing all our plans of Malta and getting the shapghetti to the Suez into the water.

Greece is a small price to pay ... the Italians are more valuable to us in the long run, and we can't risk upsetting them. Given a proper victory to motivate them, the Italians would work out very well, but if we don't help them, there darned well won't be a victory to motivate them, and we'd have to come in once they messed up, and that would be too late. Remember, Hitler likes action, yes, he's a idiot, but he likes action, if we wait for the Italians to mess up, then he might get us into trouble, like Barbarossa, or an early Seelowe, or something even worse.

Look, I'd like nothing more than to invade Italy and replace those incompetent baboons, but we can't, and Italy is more valuable than Greece. Besides, if the Italians win in Africa, Greece will be a moot point, they will likely join the Axis, and we'll be well enough off.

So, in the end, I'll stick to my vote of Russia ... because there is nothing better. We might not get anyone important, but simply talking to some of their troops and lower officers would be useful, and give us a good overlook of their equipment and training for later, and who knows, we might even get something useful out of it.

Remember, the FJ have an operational range of some 400 km in those outdated pieces of trash, 800 if it's a one-way trip ... we could storm Moscow while our troops are days out, and before those hack even manage to set up defenses.

Kraxis
08-21-2006, 23:40
Italy is already in our camp... I fail to see why that precludes getting Greece as well.

Crete would offer a nice forward base for us to use against Africa from. Shipping would suffer a similar problem as with Malta, if not as acute. And Cyprus would be within strikingrange, which again would bring interesting options.

Crete is rugged, Cyprus is much less so and thus a better target for a large FJ drop. And with Syria in Vichy hands right now, we would have a nice connection to the Middle East, bypassing the Brits in North Africa.

Turkey can offer this too, but it is far from interested in getting into a costly war. We need to show strength, and I fail to see how we can realiably offer that. Landing in Istanbul will not help us much, just like it didn't help the Greeks much that in the recent war (an alliance with Turkey will drive Greece away forcing us to fight them at some point, in which Crete will become a nice little thorn in our side).

Keba
08-21-2006, 23:52
Italy is already in our camp... I fail to see why that precludes getting Greece as well.

I'm not saying that Italy isn't in our camp, it's just that they would get offended that we meddle in their sphere of interest. Additionally, they would likely ignore our advice ... we are having a hard enough time even getting through to them, and they just might agree to having Germans helping them in their campaign.

Meddling in Greece, and even more, getting Greece to join, would ruin all we've done so far, and we can freely scratch the Italians from our list of useful allies. Greece is not worth one Vittorio Veneto, much less the three we might get with Italy, not to forget an aircraft carrier which we can use later in the war.

For all that, getting Greece in would be good, but not at this stage, Greece can wait until later, once the Italians are secure enough in their choice, as it is, we must tread carefully, or we will step on a landmine (hint: Greece) and blow everything we have with Italy to hell. And that wouldn't please Hitler much, we'd probably end up having Eicke giving us an inside experience of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

AggonyDuck
08-22-2006, 00:05
Morocco

We might as well take a look at the possibility of bases there.

Kraxis
08-22-2006, 03:44
I don't know where you were when we met the Italians, but what did we get out of it?
A sure denial for attacking Malta (bah, not needed), a claim that German tactics are not needed and German physical help is unwanted (basically a "go play with your little toy armies up north, we have important matters to attend to down here"). It can't get much worse than it is to be honest. The Italians aren't likely to support us in any case. We have to do this on a low level, with the non-fascists like the intelligent Forza, and he cares little for Greece.
By getting Crete we can prove the strength of our airforce and help Italy. She will learn, and in this case perhaps without tasting serious defeat.

Besides, who says our leadership will let Greece get what she wants? It is about what Greece believes rather than the actual situation. By making Crete an Italian 'base' would be pretty much what she would want. While it would grant us a very good base to use.

JimBob
08-22-2006, 06:55
Russia later. Paratroops could serve us well during a hypothetical Barbarossa. The lack of effective communications and few good roads and and open space make excellent opportunities for an airborne assault al la D-Day. Dropping troops behind enemy lines to block reinforcements, disrupt supplies, and cause general mayhem, then link up with the main body of the army within a few days.

But our report is on the Med. and it is on military matters only. We do not negotiate the use of factories. That is for Ribbentop. Last I checked our name is Ramcke.

Now what do we have for our report? Plans for seizing Gibraltar, Malta, and...what are other targets? A raid on the Suez later? Maybe airdropping small groups to seize the harbor in Alexandria, do some damage and get out? Frogmen? What about the French? Syria would make an excelent base to reach Iraq, and there is anti-British sentiment in Iraq. Maybe an Iraqi uprising supported by the Germans based in Syria? What about bases in Morroco? I think we need to visit the Vichy. If the Italians won't cooperate then we can use Vichy bases, which happen to be much closer to our targets.





Some info about the Regina Marina. Might be useful.
http://www.regiamarina.it/eng_index.htm

Franconicus
08-22-2006, 07:51
...
Franc - how long before our report/ return to Germany?

KK,
you received your order on June 17th. You have four weeks, so July 15th is when you have to deliver the report. Today it is June 26th. Do not forget that you will need some days to write it and maybe adjust it with Student.


All!

Do not forget what your mission is! This is not a diplomatic mission. The goal is to identify military targets, make proposals for the operation and combine it into an overall strategy - for the whole Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine).

Of course you have to check the political and strategical boundaries.

Keba
08-22-2006, 10:11
Well, after a bit of thought on the points Kraxis has made ... I have to agree with him. While Russia would be a great asset, and I continue to be a proponent of the whole let Russia join the war on our side, even indirectly, our mandate is one for the Med, not the whole war.

So, I would change my vote to Greece, my first post will be altered accordingly. Although I believe my points still stand, Russia has been disqualified by the fact that it is not on the Mediterranean ... and that it will take a lot more diplomacy to get them.

Franconicus
08-22-2006, 10:31
Do not forget that you may have to discuss your proposal with Hitler, Göring, maybe Keitel and Raeder.

Hitler may ask you a lot of questions. He was a military dilettante, but he has a lot of detail knowledge. You have to be prepare to any question.

He may ask you about Gibraltar, Morocco, Malta, Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Syria, the Suez, and how you want to use Rhodes.

He may ask you about your operation plans, about the support you need from the allies, about the British positions and their strategies, about logistics.

You can add that you need bases from Italy or that a alliance with Greece would be helpful, but I doubt that he would be happy if you tell him that you made a deal with Stalin.

Keba
08-22-2006, 11:26
On the Stalin thing, even if we go to Russia, I doubt that we would have a meeting with Stalin.

Anyway, the Russia thing is just an idea to float before the German leaders. Let it sink in.

Kraxis
08-22-2006, 12:58
I might have come off as little 'aggressive'... don't take that the wrong way.
I do not consider Greece a very good option to be honest, but then again I don't consider much to very good right now.:inquisitive:
But currently we have very little to report on in the Med. Spain rebuffed us pretty decisively, Italy effectively ignored us. What is left? Well Turkey and Greece if we want something. But Turkey isn't likely to do anything for a considerable amount of time yet. Greece might just be the perfect position for us to take advantage of, and it might not... But given how our choices really are several 'nothings' and a single 'perhaps', I will always pick the 'perhaps'.