View Full Version : Israel invasion into Ghaza.
x-dANGEr
06-28-2006, 09:00
I'm really surprised no topic about this subject has already been raised. The invasion stared at 2 AM in the local time today, I was up then seeing the action 0-o
The Israeli tractors opened new roads because the already known ones had mines/traps in them?!
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7757D8BA-CF11-4401-9BD7-593AD3D9C0EB.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13580436/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/27/world/main1757959.shtml
My comment on this, well.. I can't blame Israel for wanting to save it's soldiers, but I just grief that Palestinians can't. As currently, thousands of people, Palestinian and Lebanese are within Israeli captivity. And when foundations like Hezb Allah try to relieve some of them, they get shot to hell by the whole world being called 'terrorist' organizations.
Kralizec
06-28-2006, 09:19
You don't view Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation?
x-dANGEr
06-28-2006, 10:24
No?
doc_bean
06-28-2006, 10:35
Israel was one of the biggest mistakes ever, up there with Lyberia...
rory_20_uk
06-28-2006, 10:55
What are the Israelis up to? One man in a country that size?
Oh, and to make local an international friends they start off by airstriking a few bridges and a power station, then send in the tanks.
A country that behaves like a terrorist organisation going after one that is run by a terrorist organisation.
~:smoking:
Major Robert Dump
06-28-2006, 12:08
Look, i'm not trying to be an ass, and I certainly am not a fan of many things Isreal has done and how my country panders to it because it is the holy land......but couldn't they just give the soldier back? Everyone knows Isreal doesn't mess around, all the people involved in the kidnapping know exactly whats going to happen when the Isreali army attacks. Civilians will be killed, infrastructure will be destroyed, its almost like the kidnappers want this to happen because the poorer, dumber and more inbred the palestenian population is, the better for the unions, erm, I mean, the arab elite.
Palestine is the poster child for humiliation at the hands of
western opression, god forbid it ever becomes a nice place to live, might make it harder to blame everything on the jews.
x-dANGEr
06-28-2006, 12:43
Ok, they give the prisoner back. Then what? What happens to all those in captivity? What? Would US come and help them to gain them back? Will Europe press Israel to give them back? No, they won't, and that's up to them really.
A country that behaves like a terrorist organisation going after one that is run by a terrorist organisation.The difference between the two is that: In the first case, it is official, it is for all the world to see, but it says no word about it. On the other hand in the second, it is hardly official, it isn't there for the whole world to see, but the world says $H!7 loads about it.
rory_20_uk
06-28-2006, 12:56
Welcome to the world of realpolitik. Israel is a useful piece in the middle east which can be relied on to not do as the others do. It has a good army, nuclear missiles (about 250 warheads) and extremely rich backers in other countries, and a functioning economy.
People that annoy israel can expect problems from the USA where the Jewish lobby is large. For a similar reason motions in teh UN tend never to censure Israel as they get vetoed.
What's Palestine got? No economy, no political clout at all. Who is going to stand up with them?
Europe might not press Israel to give the prisoners back (again - they have at least been charged with something) but at least show some gratitude for the money to support Palestine.
Hamas fires crude missiles with the intent of killing Jews. Israel fires to clear the fields so no missiles can be launched. In Public Relation terms Israel is again easily ahead - it's not their fault they kill far more people that happen to be on the land, is it (as they usually say).
I wish the Uk could stay the hell out of the whole area. Cut aid to both sides and leave them to it.
~:smoking:
discovery1
06-28-2006, 16:17
Way to blow up that power station. That will certainly improve Israli Palestinian relation.
Duke Malcolm
06-28-2006, 16:26
What are the Israelis up to? One man in a country that size?
Have you heard of the British Invasion of Abyssinia? Emperor Theodore took hostage a few Britons, and in those days a Briton would have his country behind him if his freedoms were unduly infringed in some foreign place. A substantial army was set forth to fight the kidnappers and rescue the hostages. Much like as Israel has done. I think Israel is to be admired for this.
rory_20_uk
06-28-2006, 16:36
Have you heard of the British Invasion of Abyssinia? Emperor Theodore took hostage a few Britons, and in those days a Briton would have his country behind him if his freedoms were unduly infringed in some foreign place. A substantial army was set forth to fight the kidnappers and rescue the hostages. Much like as Israel has done. I think Israel is to be admired for this.
The Nazis would even blow up villages and slaughter all the people for a similar slight.
Acting like an Imperial power is something I thought countries are supposed to be moving away from.
British views and arrogance (justified at the time in terms of pure power) on the "wogs" is not something that we can look back on with pride; I'd rather keep going away from such things as Belguim's Free Congo thanks.
~:smoking:
x-dANGEr
06-28-2006, 16:37
Admired yes. But not their way of doing it.
Duke Malcolm
06-28-2006, 19:46
Admired yes. But not their way of doing it.
Yes, perhaps I'd better have said their actions will face some sort of retribution from the neighbouring states...
Goofball
06-28-2006, 20:37
Ok, they give the prisoner back. Then what? What happens to all those in captivity? What? Would US come and help them to gain them back? Will Europe press Israel to give them back? No, they won't, and that's up to them really.
You need to educate yourself a little bit.
Start by looking at how many UN resolutions have been passed condemning Israeli actions, vs how many have been passed condemning Palestinian actions.
The world is much more critical of Jews than it is of Arabs.
Having said that, what really pisses me off about the Israelis is that they always play right into the terrorists' hands. The kidnappers know full well that the Israelis will respond with overwhelming force and that Arab civilians will die.
That's exactly what they want, because it gives the world one more reason to hate Israel.
:wall:
Red Peasant
06-28-2006, 20:59
Seems to me that Hamas (the government of Palestine no less) basically declared war on Israel with the attack. Given Israel's history and attitude they should never have doubted the scale of the response. Foolish men.
There are no innocents in that conflict. It's been going on for far too long, with blood spilled on both sides, for anyone to claim being on the "right" side of the conflict. We need to get beyond the constant tit for tat reprisals for anything to ever get resolved. Resolution can't even begin until both parties, and all of the over-the-shoulder mother hens like the USA and Russia and the UK, stop looking to place blame. Everyone involved is the injured party and everyone involved is the guilty party.
Watchman
06-28-2006, 22:08
Anyone want to try guessing how long this round of shooting at each other is going to last ?
x-dANGEr
06-28-2006, 22:10
Seems to me that Hamas (the government of Palestine no less) basically declared war on Israel with the attack. Given Israel's history and attitude they should never have doubted the scale of the response. Foolish men.
Now where was that speech you gave about that the fact that military actions should only be executed against military parties?
Tribesman
06-28-2006, 23:26
The kidnappers know full well that the Israelis will respond with overwhelming force
Not neccesarily , perhaps they thought that the usual would happen and Israel would do a prisoner exchange .
They certainly miscalculated as Olmerts position is weak and he needs to make a big noise to show what a great strong leader he is .
x-dANGEr
06-29-2006, 08:30
But I still think Israel has actually lost more than gained in this whole expedition. Yesterday, at around 3:25 AM (Note am in the same timezone as Palestine), I was looking at the news bar on Aljazeera.. And every news was about the invasion. There was a news "Hamas' scattered illusion operation shows the world the myth of the invincible Israeli army". Also "Israel arrests 6 Hamas senators and 3 Hamas ministries", "Israel surrounds ------- hotel, where Hamas senators and ministers resident", "Israel starts a wide arrestment wave in Tolkarem, Bait Lahem, Jenin, Al-Quds, Ram allah, etc..", "The Israeli captive was found killed", "Hamas announced the capture of another soldier". Another was "Military Israeli fighters fly above one of Syria's president Bashar el Asad palaces", followed by "The anti-air Syrian turrets announced that they repelled the intrusion of Israeli fighters and forced them out of their air sector."
What was my re-action, at 3:25 AM, sleepy, with water cut off? I will leave that for you to guess.
infrastructure will be destroyed
What infrastructure in Gaza?
The Israelis demolished it all when they pulled out last time.
What a complete freaking mess. It's as if the Palestinians and Israelis spend their time trying to figure out ways to make the whole situation worse. "What can we do today to really make a complete hash of everything?" and "How can we make a bigger mess of it than the other side?" seem to be the operative position for both sides. It's like watching a couple of two-year old children, still completely within the "me" and "mine" infant mindset, arguing about who owns the cat crap deposited in the sandbox by the local stray. But instead of hair-pulling and crying, their weapons are sophisticated, modern weapons of war and people die.
I was shocked when I heard it today. I don't mind the Isaelies sending the Army to get their man back but the destruction of infrastructure was a step in the wrong direction. Worst of all they sent Jet Fighters to fly around Syria's Prime Minister's residence as a warning.
I've always been a staunch supporter of Israel but they really need to learn to have a bit more diplomatic tact.
Worst of all they sent Jet Fighters to fly around Syria's Prime Minister's residence as a warning.
*Sigh*, Intimidation is so barbaric, and yet they have the cheek to claim terrorists are barbaric. Both sides should have their heads banged together!
x-dANGEr
06-29-2006, 10:18
Yesterday on the news, one of Hamas senators said that the electricity plant that was destroyed by Israeli fighters would need 6-8 months to re-build.. Imagine this, 6-8 months with no electricity..
Both sides should have their heads banged together!
They need a metal concert?:idea2:
Somebody Else
06-29-2006, 11:46
I love the way that the weak in this world are allowed so much more moral leeway to cause harm to the strong.
They kidnapped a soldier by tunnelling under what was essentially a border. That's more than just kidnapping a civilian - which would be mere crime, this is an act explicitly against a government. If the Palestinian government wants to be anything more than a joke, it should keep it's people under control and stop them committing acts of war.
I see it as a terminally stupid action, kind of like going up to a policeman and thumping him. What do they expect? A pat on the back? To be given free reign? They should damned well grow up.
Also, you just don't ever ever ever leave a soldier behind.
I see it as a terminally stupid action, kind of like going up to a policeman and thumping him. What do they expect? A pat on the back? To be given free reign? They should damned well grow up.
That is all this conflict has evolved to, continuous 'stupid action', where one side (It doesn't matter which) commits a crime or wrong, and then the other side retaliates. Undoubtedly escalating the problem.
But the whole problem is exacerbated by the cultural intolerance which is inherent in both cultures and the upbringing of the children, which teaches that the other side is EVIL and an infidel. Thus leading to a new generation which hates the other side more than the last did. Because they have been brought up by what their parents or grandparents or the Governmental propaganda says, and they have been isolated from the truth and learning about the other culture.
AntiochusIII
06-29-2006, 12:01
All's fair in love and war, methinks.
Anyone who tries to justify the continuing fighting for one side over another is either a fool or a blind man, or worse, a hypocrite.
Al Khalifah
06-29-2006, 12:24
All Israel is doing by this is worsening the World's opinion of it and increasing the hatred towards it from the Arab world.
All the Palestinian insurgents are doing by this is further decreasing the chances of there ever being an independant Palestinian State.
It's a complete loss for both sides, no one is winning. One thing is for certain though, this whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with that hostage - yet in his name it looks like a whole nation will once again be plunged into civil war.
Somebody Else
06-29-2006, 12:46
Quite a simple solution for the Palestinians in this case really - give the guy back.
If the Israelis back off, then good. If they don't, then they get a PR victory (sort of, they still kidnapped someone).
no one is winning
I couldn't agree more!
Divinus Arma
06-29-2006, 14:41
Israel finds itself in a very difficult predicament. After Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip, militants began bombarding Israel proper with Qassam rockets from civilian areas. Israel had one of two choices: Ignore the rocket fire into their communities, or attempt to kill the militants who launch the rockets. Either way, Israel loses. Palestinians hide behind civilians because they gain a PR victory every time that a palestinian is killed. But who's fault is it? Israel for defending herself after withdrawing from Gaza? Or the Palestinian authority for failing to crackdown on its militants?
Now, it is even harder for Israel to find the answer that is best for Israel that will also please the international community. Militants, backed by Hamas and the Syrian government, have crossed into Israel proper and kidnapped an Israeli soldier. If Israel does nothing, then Hamas wins. If Israel conducts a prisoner exchange, then militants will be emboldened to kidnap more soldiers to negotiate with Israel. And if Israel trys to crackdown on the militants and their palestinian government support, then Israel looks like the belligerent. Either way, Israel loses.
The only choice Israel has in this conflict is to continuously cede victories to Hamas and the Militants. Israel can never "win". They can only choose between the lesser of two defeats.
The only choice Israel has in this conflict is to continuously cede victories to Hamas and the Militants. Israel can never "win". They can only choose between the lesser of two defeats.
Neither side can win. Their continued ingnorance and hatred will led/continue the warfare.
doc_bean
06-29-2006, 17:22
Neither side can win. Their continued ingnorance and hatred will led/continue the warfare.
Someone's gonna use DA BOMB eventually, then all hell will brake loose. :shame:
yesdachi
06-29-2006, 18:19
Even though it seems to be a major offensive reaction from Israel it is not nearly as substantial as it should have been. The only way to any peace between the two is to eliminate one of them. Hamas has no real teeth but will not stop attacking Israel, WTF, do they think they are doing any good at all by taunting Israel? Eventually they will receive major retaliation and I don’t think most people will shed a tear.
I don't care. I'd say the area should be left to deal with its own problems, but the western world would flip its lid to defend Zion if another Arab nation stepped in to put the bones to Israel. Whatever. A lot of people are going to die and no one is going to give a damn.
The only way to any peace between the two is to eliminate one of them.
As my wife likes to scare me by saying, "This whole thing would be over if we didn't have a prejudice against genocide." When I shoot her an incredulous glance, she usually clarifies by saying, "Like we did with the Indians."
It's strange to be married to a woman who thinks death camps get a bad rap.
doc_bean
06-29-2006, 18:48
It's strange to be married to a woman who thinks death camps get a bad rap.
Errr...
I hope Our Future Overlord takes more after you :help:
yesdachi
06-29-2006, 19:38
As my wife likes to scare me by saying, "This whole thing would be over if we didn't have a prejudice against genocide." When I shoot her an incredulous glance, she usually clarifies by saying, "Like we did with the Indians."
It's strange to be married to a woman who thinks death camps get a bad rap.
I think I like your wife’s humor.
Israeli observer: Humm, Like the Indians… :idea2: Blankets would make the perfect “sorry about the electric plant” gift.
Watchman
06-29-2006, 22:45
I'm wholly certain Israel has its share of Gen. Jack D. Rippers who keep proposing "Final Solutions for the Palestinian Problem" (nevermind worries about "our precious bodily fluids"). Their peers just are smart enough to not let them talk to the media about it.
Given that there are wackos willing to murder their own Prime Minister for cutting with the Palestinians a deal regarded worldwide as unbelievably skewed in Israeli favour and force-fed down Arafat's throat, and putting the Judaic equivalent of the death-sentence fatwa Rushdie has on his head on Sharon of all people for forcibly evicting the dumbest, most pointless and difficult to defend illegal West Bank settlements, it ought to be obvious enough what the ultras among the populace think of the matter. :skull:
Christ. Why couldn't they start colonizing somewhere, anywhere else a century ago...? :no:
Kaiser of Arabia
06-30-2006, 03:00
You can't invade your own territory.
You can't invade your own territory.
I hope your not claiming what I think your claiming.
You can't invade your own territory.
You can but thats kinda pointless.
Israel is too barbaric. They mean to hurt every Palestinian for anything that militants do. :skull:
In Beit Hanoun people say they would hardly notice that the military and Jewish settlers are gone. The army has dropped thousands of shells during the past two months in response to Palestinian rockets that killed fewer Israeli civilians in five years than the military killed in a single airstrike earlier this month.
In the past three weeks alone Israel has killed at least 27 Palestinian civilians in the occupied territories, including nine children and a pregnant woman. Many of them died in Gaza in botched air force missile attacks against Palestinian militiamen.
I also noticed in the newspaper today that Israeli forces have captured the Hamas cabinet.
Divinus Arma
06-30-2006, 05:57
Israel is too barbaric. They mean to hurt every Palestinian for anything that militants do. :skull:
So what should Israel do? Allow militants to continually bomb Israel proper even after they evacutaed Gaza and gave it to Palestine?
Why do you people hate the Jews? Why do you make them your scape goats?
Can't you see the Palestinians hide behind women and children, fully excpecting them to be killed- in order to make a PR victory?!
So what should Israel do? Allow militants to continually bomb Israel proper even after they evacutaed Gaza and gave it to Palestine?
Israel should not accept the use of terrorism and violence against them, but they only harm innocents and themselves by continuing the violence. When they evacuated Gaza they left it completely ruined to spite the Arab peoples. The could have easily left without destroying the infrastructure, thus allowing poor Palestinians palces to reside. But the fact of the matter is that they didn't.
Why do you people hate the Jews? Why do you make them your scape goats?
Why do you assume the position that people de facto hate the Jews? Has anyone posting here said anything offensive about the Jews? And hold on a minute since when and for what have we of the .ORG been using the Jews as "Quote" Scapegoats "Unquote"?
Can't you see the Palestinians hide behind women and children, fully excpecting them to be killed- in order to make a PR victory?!
I am fully aware of terrorism and the methods it uses to accomplish said deeds. However, can't you see what the media does to try and angle pro-Jewish feeling and harbour hatred amoungst 'Western Peoples' towards Arabs.
Israel is just as adept at using terrorism as Hamas is. How do you think they have managed to survive in such a hostile environment?
So what should Israel do? Allow militants to continually bomb Israel proper even after they evacutaed Gaza and gave it to Palestine?
Why do you people hate the Jews? Why do you make them your scape goats?
Can't you see the Palestinians hide behind women and children, fully excpecting them to be killed- in order to make a PR victory?! Don't destroy the infrastructures as means to collectively punish every Palestinians. Destroying bridges, a power plant, cutting off fuel supplies and clean water, for what?
Don't destroy the infrastructures as means to collectively punish every Palestinians. Destroying bridges, a power plant, cutting off fuel supplies and clean water, for what?
Exactly, and Israel will not re-settle the area, they are just didplaying as much barbarity as Hamas etc.
Its like children on a beach, one kid destroys the other's sand castle, so the other kid decides to throw sand in the first kid's eyes. The conflict will never solve itself.
Exactly, and Israel will not re-settle the area, they are just didplaying as much barbarity as Hamas etc.
Its like children on a beach, one kid destroys the other's sand castle, so the other kid decides to throw sand in the first kid's eyes. The conflict will never solve itself.
And every once in a while one of them cries for Momma; so, Mommy US or Mommy UN or Mommy Russia or Mommy Syria or Mommy Iran has to come coddle one or the other until the crying stops. Then, when everyone is feeling better, it's back to sand-kicking and hair-pulling and hissy fits. Sadly, in this milieu, the sand-kicking gets people killed, many of them innocent "real" children. :skull:
Watchman
06-30-2006, 10:07
So what should Israel do? Allow militants to continually bomb Israel proper even after they evacutaed Gaza and gave it to Palestine?West Bank. Gaza was never the big issue anyway.
Israel hasn't been doing anything else than rationalizing its de facto borders a bit here and there - which in practice means abandoning assorted plots of land they don't consider valuable enough to hold on to (hint: quite a few of the West Bank colonies sit on the precious, precious wells...).
Why do you people hate the Jews? Why do you make them your scape goats?"Anti-Zionism is antisemitism!!1!!11" is a bit old as arguments go, you know. And doesn't work. All it does is debase and devalue the concept of antisemitism, annoy people, and lose you their sympathies. If I see a naked land grab I want to be able to call it a naked land grab without being told I want to do a rerun of the Holocaust, thankyouverymuch.
This isn't about Jews as a people (nearly all of whom don't like Israel or its policies either, incidentally). This is about the nation-state of Israel and its troublesome little loose ends.
Can't you see the Palestinians hide behind women and children, fully excpecting them to be killed- in order to make a PR victory?!Standard asymmetrical-warfare tactics. It's not like the Palestinians can even remotely expect to get anything else than slaughtered if they try to "fight fair" (assuming you could call *that* match up a "fair fight"...) anyway.
Can't you see what the Israelis are hiding behind ? Hint: see the previous quote for one.
Al Khalifah
06-30-2006, 10:37
However, can't you see what the media does to try and angle pro-Jewish feeling and harbour hatred amoungst 'Western Peoples' towards Arabs.
I watched the BBC report on the goings on in Israel the other day and I don't think I've ever seen such a biased piece of reporting.
The choice phrases were that every time the reporter described the Israeli motivation it had to be prefixed by the word 'claims' or 'alledges' said in the most suspicious and non-believing tone. We were then treated to repeated shots of rather shoddy looking buildings and the classic old favorite of the teary eyed child stearing into the camera.
As if that didn't stink she followed it up by saying "all this over one Israeli young Israeli corporal." Editorialising just a bit there? I guess the fact there's only one of him and he's only a corporal means that Israel shouldn't bother trying to get him back. Maybe send a polite letter to Hamas (the terrorists' or the Government's P.O box) asking for him back. Let's ignore the fact he was kidnapped or that it was terrorists who committed the crime - as in TERRORISTS the kind of people responsible for 7/7, 9/11, Madrid etc...
My overall impression of the BBC is that it firmly supports the Palestinian cause - not because they think they are in any way right or deserve their own state - but because it gives the BBC the chance to do the only bit of reporting they know how to do: shoddy looking buildings and the teary eyed child stearing into the camera.
Sorry. Generally I like the BBC, but its news reporting is shaky.
Good for Israel. That's what happens when you elect a terrorist group in a landslide as your government. Hope it was worth it.
If the Americans voted in the KKK in a 70% landslide Americans would be called racist. When the Palestinians elect terrorists in a 70% landslide they are called terrorists.
All the attempts to equate Israeli defense with Palestinian aggression and greed will fall on deaf ears with Israel, and thankfully a majority in the US. And since we hold a veto in the UN, the palestnians won't have a platform to prop up their dead after they're done using them as human shields to protect people who want to blow up pizza shops and burn 18 year old kids.
When the Palestinians decide to take responsibility for the fact that their lives are shit because they can't accept the fact that they will never "drive Israel into the sea" and stop blaming everyone else for them acting like savages, Israel will be waiting and they might just find themselves with a state of their own.
Until then Israel, backed by the US, will continue to show the Palestinians that when you elect a terrorist government, their attacks arn't "rogue elements" that you can hide behind, they are acts of war. Looks like they are learning that now the hard way.
I for one, have zero sympathy for them.
Watchman
06-30-2006, 11:06
It is to a large degree thanks to that kind of opinion being common in the US that Israel can get away with all the least said questinable crap it pulls, you know. And the situation never gets resolved since Israel, being the stronger party, holds a better part of the keys.
"We condemn the crimes ouf our enemies and reward those of our friends", as it were. :shame:
rory_20_uk
06-30-2006, 12:40
Do we know who took the soldier? No
Did the Palestians vote to whether he should be kidnapped? No.
And what choices do the palestinians have when voting? Terrorists or the corrupt remenants of a dead figurehead. Hardly choice.
When America kidnap people are all the American people responsible?
~:smoking:
There´s a certain standard in some parts of the world that goes like:
First comes ME, then MY needs, MY property, MY rights, then comes nothing for some times, and we continue with MY family, MY region and then MY country and MY religion and that´s where MY monkeysphere ends...:help:
The Wizard
06-30-2006, 13:01
There is but one thing I fail to understand. Why are they sending Merkavaim and Tsahal boys into the Gaza? Can they not just send in the Mossad to do what it was made for and do it subtly and not with big explosions and much gore?
Israel is responding rather heavy-handedly to this crisis. I don't know why. As far as I'm concerned they might as well replace the current government with a new one since it won't change anything in the chaos that is Palestine, but I simply fail to understand why tanks need to roll. In the urbanized Gaza Strip one would think it would be better to send in covert ops to do the job rather than armored divisions.
Do we know who took the soldier? No
We do. The al-Qassam Brigades, the military branch of, yes, Hamas (welcome back gentlemen), together with a hodgepodge of vagrant terrorists of whom the name escapes me (something akin to the Courts Union of Somalia, IIRC).
I am guessing Israel wants to pressure Hamas to give up the G.I., but I think some well-placed liquidations would be much handier than once again entering this infernal place called the Gaza Strip.
Israel is responding rather heavy-handedly to this crisis. I don't know why. As far as I'm concerned they might as well replace the current government with a new one since it won't change anything in the chaos that is Palestine, but I simply fail to understand why tanks need to roll. In the urbanized Gaza Strip one would think it would be better to send in covert ops to do the job rather than armored divisions.
They want to attract reporters so they are able to demonise their enemy and thus justify their cause.
The Wizard
06-30-2006, 13:07
Sounds kinda like Pan-Arabist tactics, doesn't it? ~:rolleyes:
Did the Palestians vote to whether he should be kidnapped? No.
No, but apparently a recent poll found 70% of them don't want him to be returned without a quid pro quo. It seems to me that the Palestinians have been choosing, whether democratically or otherwise, leaderships that condone military wings that attack Israel. Whether this was Arafat and his Matyrs' brigades, or Hamas, it's the same story. Maybe they have poor choices and democracy has been far from perfect, but to some extent I think people get the leaders they deserve. If the Palestinian people were conciliatory and dove-ish, I suspect Arafat could have settled with Israel during Clinton's time in office.
I can sympathesise with Israel's position - how do you deal with a neighbour who is going to sponsor attacks on you? Still worse, how do you create a neighbour - a viable Palestinian state - that is going to do that? AFAIK, Russia had (has?) a similar problem with Chechen independence.
That said, I'm not convinced that a hard Israeli response is going to be anything other than counterproductive. They can't kill the Palestinians and attacking them is probably only going to further enhance the position of the militants, bringing them more recruits and popular support. Plus, like Russia with the Chechens, Israel will probably kill more innocents than the terrorists they are retaliating about.
The best course might be for Israel to be stoical and roll with the punches. You lose a corporal - that's a tragedy. But is it sufficient to dictate your whole future? If so, can't any terrorist derail you by just seizing one of your men? However, a more restrained response may be political suicide for the Israeli leadership, just as a conciliatory one would be political (and maybe literal) suicide for the Palestinian leadership.
The whole thing is just a mess.
rory_20_uk
06-30-2006, 13:23
Yes, it's a mess.
But for barganing what else do the Palestinians have? No armed forces, no control over their borders. Their neighbour can invade whenever it chooses and routinely shells your country. And then there's barrier and the land annexations.
As a Palestinian, I can understand why they feel utterly powerless. They've now got reduced (or is it no) power thanks to the Israelis and lost 3 bridges. Yet again Israel has made their lives worse. So wanting something back is nt that surprising.
But I stand by thinking we should keep well out of the whole area.
~:smoking:
yesdachi
06-30-2006, 13:40
If the Palestinians have so much nothing (military, electricity, etc.) one would think that they would stop fighting. Why keep attacking and provoking a clearly superior opponent? If they want to hate them, no one can stop that, but stop bombing, shooting and kidnapping them, it is only going to make their situation worse. Here’s an idea… learn.
The Wizard
06-30-2006, 13:41
That said, I'm not convinced that a hard Israeli response is going to be anything other than counterproductive. They can't kill the Palestinians and attacking them is probably only going to further enhance the position of the militants, bringing them more recruits and popular support. Plus, like Russia with the Chechens, Israel will probably kill more innocents than the terrorists they are retaliating about.
The best course might be for Israel to be stoical and roll with the punches. You lose a corporal - that's a tragedy. But is it sufficient to dictate your whole future? If so, can't any terrorist derail you by just seizing one of your men? However, a more restrained response may be political suicide for the Israeli leadership, just as a conciliatory one would be political (and maybe literal) suicide for the Palestinian leadership.
Precisely.
However, it is my belief that Palestine is not worth discussing with unless its government can deliver on its promises. What is a promise worth when it comes from a government that cannot even control its own paramilitary forces (and has them to boot)?
Israel should stop indulging its enemies by bludgeoning the Palestinians with tanks and more Tsahal; rather, it should concentrate on helping the Palestinians create a viable state that can back up its words with action. Methinks that the moment that is a reality you will see a sharp decline in interest for extremists with supposed "solutions" for the "Jewish problem".
Mount Suribachi
06-30-2006, 13:46
I don't care. I'd say the area should be left to deal with its own problems, but the western world would flip its lid to defend Zion if another Arab nation stepped in to put the bones to Israel.
Thats right, cos the western world mass-mobilised to defend Israel in '48 and '73. Oh no, wait a minute......
If the Arabs want to have another stab at full-scale conventional war with Israel, good luck to 'em. Doubt it tho, they've been whooped that badly, that many times that there hasn't been a conventional war since '82. Much smarter & easier to sit back, blame it all on Israel, stoke the fires, support the terrorists, but make sure you don't actually go to war yourself.
I watched the BBC report on the goings on in Israel the other day and I don't think I've ever seen such a biased piece of reporting.
You've only just realised there's a liberal bias on the BBC? :inquisitive: Good grief, next you'll be complaining that Channel 4 news has a negative opinion of George W Bush! :laugh4:
Al Khalifah
06-30-2006, 14:08
You've only just realised there's a liberal bias on the BBC? Good grief, next you'll be complaining that Channel 4 news has a negative opinion of George W Bush!
The BBC isn't TOO bad. It just only knows how to do one kind of reporting.
Channel 4 can't think too badly of George Bush, they seem to be the largest importer of American goods in the world (aka crap American sit-coms and such).
I think you'll find both Palestinians and Israelis believe the BBC is on the other side. Personally, I've never noticed a pro-Palestinian bias. Last night I thought I detected the opposite, as Palestinian actions are easily labelled as terrorism (or at best "attacks") and Israeli actions as "responses". But then how do you report this kind of thing without offending one or both sides? It's the kind of situation where it is very hard to stand in the middle of the road and not be knocked over. As long as they annoy both sides, the BBC is probably doing a reasonable job[1].
BBC reporters do editorialise, but I suspect that is because just to engage the British public more (there's a tendency for us to switch off when night after night it just more conflict and misery). And because any outsider with an ounce of humanity is going to find it hard not to be appalled by this Greek tragedy that is forever unfolding in the Middle East.
[1] By contrast, Channel 4 news is run by rampaging liberal lefties, but that may be why I like it so much.
solypsist
06-30-2006, 17:16
i am not defending the current situation,but my one single point here is that Israel has a right to defend itself. They don't have a right to go on an unprovoked offensive, but what's being suggested is tantamount to rolling over and eating bombs just to protect the palestinian people. I'm sorry if you disagree, but Israel's first priority is it's people, not anyone else's.
rory_20_uk
06-30-2006, 17:25
i am not defending the current situation,but my one single point here is that Israel has a right to defend itself. They don't have a right to go on an unprovoked offensive, but what's being suggested is tantamount to rolling over and eating bombs just to protect the palestinian people. I'm sorry if you disagree, but Israel's first priority is it's people, not anyone else's.
In the long term they are going to make things worse for their own people. Suicide bombers need to have nothing to live for to do what they do. Israel again is giving them ample reason.
The national origin of terrorists is not reason alone to invade a country. Saudi Arabia has yet to be attacked for their export of them.
England did eventually roll over and eat bombs when concerned with the IRA. Nothing else seemed to work, and eventually by making them clearly the "bad guys" they stopped. An eye for an eye is only going to make things stay the same, or get worse of course.
What about releasing a plague to take both their minds of hating each other?
~:smoking:
Devastatin Dave
06-30-2006, 18:30
i am not defending the current situation,but my one single point here is that Israel has a right to defend itself. They don't have a right to go on an unprovoked offensive, but what's being suggested is tantamount to rolling over and eating bombs just to protect the palestinian people. I'm sorry if you disagree, but Israel's first priority is it's people, not anyone else's.
Excellent post. I don't understand why people think that Israel should just allow itself to be attacked without any retaliation or effort to defend their citizens. But then again, some of the critics of Israel believe that the Palestinians have a right to "exterminate the Jew from Palestine". Oh well....
rory_20_uk
06-30-2006, 20:46
But then again, most of the critics of Israel believe that the Palestinians have a right to "exterminate the Jew from Palestine". Oh well....
Evidence?
~:smoking:
Al Khalifah
06-30-2006, 21:10
England did eventually roll over and eat bombs when concerned with the IRA.
Not accurate.
The British engaged them politcally and shoved them into a direction where a schism was caused between the elements that wished to continue to wage a campaign of violence and those who wanted to pursue the political route. The split weakened the IRA and many of the senior members of the violent wing were betrayed or forced to go into hiding for fear of betrayal. The IRA's funding was also cut significantly following the 11th of September attacks and the following war on terror.
The situation is somewhat different in that the IRA were able to cache arms and personnel in the Irish Republic which was not part of the UK and so any raids by the British Army had to be covert, where as Palestine is part of Israel and so Israel has free reign to act within its own borders. The IRA was also funded by America while in this case Israel is funded by America.
What about releasing a plague to take both their minds of hating each other?
I like the common enemy approach though. Nothing unites peoples like a common enemy.
Devastatin Dave
06-30-2006, 21:29
Evidence?
~:smoking:
Sorry, meant to write "some"... will edit...
Don Corleone
06-30-2006, 21:50
Evidence?
~:smoking:
Doesn't the democratically elected leadership of Palestine, Hamas call for the destruction of Israel and the forcible removal of Jews from all countries in the middle east, in their charter?
Edit, oops, I replied too quickly. I thought we were still talking about Palestinians, not all critics of Israel. My bad.
Devastatin Dave
06-30-2006, 21:55
Doesn't the democratically elected leadership of Palestine, Hamas call for the destruction of Israel and the forcible removal of Jews from all countries in the middle east, in their charter?
Edit, oops, I replied too quickly. I thought we were still talking about Palestinians, not all critics of Israel. My bad.
Welcome back, Godfather... :2thumbsup:
Tribesman
06-30-2006, 21:55
But then again, some of the critics of Israel believe that the Palestinians have a right to "exterminate the Jew from Palestine". Oh well....
But then again , some of the critics of Palestine believe that the Israelis have a right to exterminate the arab from Palestine. Oh well......:juggle2:
Tribesman
06-30-2006, 22:11
Doesn't the democratically elected leadership of Palestine, Hamas call for the destruction of Israel and the forcible removal of Jews from all countries in the middle east, in their charter?
The charter is a long winded badly written piece of rubbish Don , with lots of religeous crap thrown in for good measure .
But no it doesn't call for the forcible removal of all Jews from the mid-east , just like it doesn't call for the removal of all Christians .
Articles 6 and 31 set out its position on "peacefull coexistance" and religeous/cultural rights for the 3 main regional religeons .
Don Corleone
06-30-2006, 22:14
Hmm, you have a rather interesting translation Tribesman. I'll have to look mine up when I get my crap moved, or find another one online. For now though, it's the holiday weekend... 4 hours of traffic, then 4 days of drunken revelry. Cheers!!! ~:cheers:
rory_20_uk
06-30-2006, 22:16
I could not quite to you one of the manifestoes of the parties in the UK. And here they are widely available, and I have far more spare time than Palestinians. Expecting them to take time to pick through the details is frankly ridiculous.
~:smoking:
Mount Suribachi
06-30-2006, 22:16
I think you'll find both Palestinians and Israelis believe the BBC is on the other side. Personally, I've never noticed a pro-Palestinian bias. Last night I thought I detected the opposite, as Palestinian actions are easily labelled as terrorism (or at best "attacks") and Israeli actions as "responses". But then how do you report this kind of thing without offending one or both sides? It's the kind of situation where it is very hard to stand in the middle of the road and not be knocked over. As long as they annoy both sides, the BBC is probably doing a reasonable job[1].
BBC reporters do editorialise, but I suspect that is because just to engage the British public more (there's a tendency for us to switch off when night after night it just more conflict and misery). And because any outsider with an ounce of humanity is going to find it hard not to be appalled by this Greek tragedy that is forever unfolding in the Middle East.
[1] By contrast, Channel 4 news is run by rampaging liberal lefties, but that may be why I like it so much.
Its not so much the Israel/Palestine thing, the beeb in general has a left wing bias. Not as much as Ch4, but its still there. I don't mind it so much with channel 4, they're just playing to their lefties/minorities target audience, and its an independant commercial station, funded by advertising. The beeb OTOH is funded by you and me and we have no choice in the matter - and thats where I have a problem. It should be, as far as possible, impartial. Just imagine how you would feel if the BBC were a British version of Fox News...
The real shame about Ch4 news is that it treats its viewers like intelligent human beings, unlike every other UK news station - you just have to strip away the left wing propaganda first ~;) When the presenter refers to Labour as "we" you know what you're getting :laugh4:
Regarding the IRA, British Intelligence did an excellent job into the 90s in infiltrating it. The role this played in bringing them to the negotiating table cannot be underestimated.
Pannonian
06-30-2006, 23:44
Doesn't the democratically elected leadership of Palestine, Hamas call for the destruction of Israel and the forcible removal of Jews from all countries in the middle east, in their charter?
Edit, oops, I replied too quickly. I thought we were still talking about Palestinians, not all critics of Israel. My bad.
Have you been following the news? Hamas recently (just before the kidnapping) agreed to recognise Israel, and the main party didn't know about the kidnapping until it had happened, and called on the captors to treat him well and release him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1807550,00.html
Wednesday June 28, 2006
Yesterday the gamble paid off as Hamas cut its losses and decided not to face the people. It surrendered the pretence of one day conquering Israel for the reality of keeping some political power by endorsing a document, drawn up by Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli jails, that requires the installation of a national unity government committed to a negotiated two-state solution.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733036.html
Sat., July 01, 2006
But the greater the government's creativity in inventing tactics, the more it seems to reflect a loss of direction rather than an overall conception based on reason and common sense. On the face of it, Israel wishes to exert increasing pressure both on Hamas' political leadership and on the Palestinian public, in order to induce it to pressure its leadership to release the soldier. At the same time, the government claims that Syria - or at least Khaled Meshal, who is living in Syria - holds the key. If so, what is the point of pressuring the local Palestinian leadership, which did not know of the planned attack and which, when it found out, demanded that the kidnappers take good care of their victim and return him?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733338.html
30/06/2006
Palestinian militants have agreed to a conditional release of Shalit, but Israel has not yet accepted their terms, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said in remarks published Friday.
So let's clear up a couple of points.
1. Hamas no longer aims to destroy the state of Israel, but favours a 2 state solution - latest 28/06/06.
2. The kidnappers have agreed conditions for the release of the Israeli soldier, but the Israeli government has not yet agreed - latest 30/06/06.
Tribesman
07-01-2006, 00:54
Hmm, you have a rather interesting translation Tribesman. I'll have to look mine up when I get my crap moved, or find another one online.
Don would I be correct in assuming that the version of the charter you are referring to is the commonly published one that amounts to about 10 lines of selected translated "quotes" and not the actual charter ?
Which BTW they did have a motion to rewrite , but it was narrowly defeated .Then again it took the PLO many years to rewrite their charter , and since a couple of people have mentioned Ireland , it took them many decades to rewrite theirs .:shrug:
They want to attract reporters so they are able to demonise their enemy and thus justify their cause.
The pally-TV video that was posted here not long ago made me think that this is exactly what the Palestinians do and so far noone has convinced me that the Israelis do that as well...
Pannonian
07-01-2006, 04:49
Its not so much the Israel/Palestine thing, the beeb in general has a left wing bias. Not as much as Ch4, but its still there. I don't mind it so much with channel 4, they're just playing to their lefties/minorities target audience, and its an independant commercial station, funded by advertising. The beeb OTOH is funded by you and me and we have no choice in the matter - and thats where I have a problem. It should be, as far as possible, impartial. Just imagine how you would feel if the BBC were a British version of Fox News...
The Beeb judges its current affairs coverage by the volume of complaints on either side. Generally the complaints of bias on one side are roughly equal to the complaints on the other side, and this is considered satisfactory impartiality.
The real shame about Ch4 news is that it treats its viewers like intelligent human beings, unlike every other UK news station - you just have to strip away the left wing propaganda first ~;) When the presenter refers to Labour as "we" you know what you're getting :laugh4:
From interviews, Jon Snow calls himself a socialist and considers New Labour to be too right wing for his tastes. From what I've seen of Channel 4 news, I'd call the agenda liberal, of a kind shared by the British mainstream (ie. New Labour, LibDems, One Nation Tories).
Regarding the IRA, British Intelligence did an excellent job into the 90s in infiltrating it. The role this played in bringing them to the negotiating table cannot be underestimated.
The main role in bringing them to the negotiating table was the assessment by IRA prisoners that the political approach was more likely to be rewarding in the long run. There's a document somewhere written by one of the hunger strikers which examined the ways in which the British undermined the republican cause, and how it could only be combated by politics.
A parallel can be seen in the document produced by Fatah and Hamas prisoners that eventually pressured the Hamas movement into agreeing to recognise Israel. That has been ignored in this hullabaloo, but is probably the most significant event in the region since Rabin's assassination, since it will affect how Palestinian politics is defined from now on. The kidnapping and the resultant Israeli strikes are relatively unimportant from the wider perspective.
Devastatin Dave
07-01-2006, 04:54
.
1. Hamas no longer aims to destroy the state of Israel, but favours a 2 state solution - latest 28/06/06.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggg gggghhhhhhhhht. Heard that before.:laugh4:
Pannonian
07-01-2006, 05:06
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggg gggghhhhhhhhht. Heard that before.:laugh4:
I'd like to know where. Before this, Hamas were notorious for refusing to recognise Israel. Mahmoud Abbas made a point of threatening to call a referendum on the issue - if Hamas has made the claim before, why would he bother with this threat? Perhaps DevDave reckons he knows more about the history of Hamas than President Abbas?
Devastatin Dave
07-01-2006, 05:20
I'd like to know where. Before this, Hamas were notorious for refusing to recognise Israel. Mahmoud Abbas made a point of threatening to call a referendum on the issue - if Hamas has made the claim before, why would he bother with this threat? Perhaps DevDave reckons he knows more about the history of Hamas than President Abbas?
I seem to remember Arafat making the same empty promises back in the day. Face it, the Palestinians will never have peace with Israel even if they wanted it. The Middle East needs a poster child for its misery and the Palestinians will always be kicked around because the Jews hate them and all of their muslim brothers bodering Israel will never truelly help them because they serve a purpose. Its an endless cycle that won't end because neither side truelly wants it to.
Case in point...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0%2C20867%2C19645805-601%2C00.html
This is not going to end.
Crazed Rabbit
07-01-2006, 05:46
Gee, if the Palestinians are so righteous, why did they send hundreds of rockets into a single Israeli town bordering Gaza after Israel pulled out of Gaza - with no concessions from the Palestinians?
Israel is under constant attack, but still, people act as if that is the only choice of the Palestinians...wtf?
Why could they not just stop the violence? Israel is not attacking them, but has given up land on their own.
It is simply that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel. They are not content to live and let live. If the positions of power were switched, there would have been another genocide already.
Crazed Rabbit
Divinus Arma
07-01-2006, 06:32
Two Points:
The recent implicit recognition of Israel is a FIRST for Hamas.
The Israeli government is using this kidnapped Corporal as an excuse to apply additional pressure on Hamas.
Ser Clegane
07-01-2006, 08:46
The recent implicit recognition of Israel is a FIRST for Hamas.
Indeed ... however, they are still sompletely unwilling to admit it and unfortunately by no means reneounce violence
Interview with Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,424505,00.html)
Snippets:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Doesn't that mean that Hamas inevitably accepts the Israeli state in the rest of that area?
Abu Marzook: The paper does not say that at all. It is purely about the future of our people and about how a government uniting all Palestinian factions can work on building their independent state.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: And does Hamas also believe that an Israeli state can exist alongside a Palestinian state?
Abu Marzook: Hamas has always said clearly: We will never accept the occupation, because it is not legal, not correct and not just.
[...]
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Looking at the consequences, one has to recognize that violence against Israel will never really help the Palestinian people.
Abu Marzook: Of course such actions help. Because every Israeli now knows that there will always be a reaction to violence. If Palestinians are killed, Israelis will be killed. That should be clear to all Israelis.
The ever progressive Hamas. ~:dizzy:
Tribesman
07-01-2006, 11:21
Gee, if the Palestinians are so righteous, why did they send hundreds of rockets into a single Israeli town bordering Gaza after Israel pulled out of Gaza - with no concessions from the Palestinians?
Gee why did the Israelis send thousands of shells into Gaza ? and what concession is required when a country decides to unilaterally end an illegal action due to its financial problems ?
Israel is under constant attack, but still, people act as if that is the only choice of the Palestinians...wtf?
Wtf indeed .... Palestine is under constant attack, but still ,people act as if that is the only choice of the Israelis .
Why could they not just stop the violence?
Yep , that would be nice .
Israel is not attacking them, but has given up land on their own.
Israel is attacking them , it has carried out more than twice as many shellings in 5 months than the Palestinians have carried out in 5 years .
It gave up some land because it was not economically viable for them to hold it , just like they have given up other land in the past , and because in 4 years they suffered from approx 12 .5 thousand terrorist attacks in Gaza which they could do little to stop .
It appears that there are only two ways that Israel withdraws ;
when the attacks make occupation too expensive ,
when someone else pays both the attackers and the Israelis lots and lots of money to stop attacking and give up the land .
The ever progressive Hamas.
Come on Dariush ,you have to admire Hamas and their charter . It takes real genius to be able to write such a pile of crap in such a way , a real classic of comedy .:juggle2:
The charter is a joke isn't it , or am I missing something ? :inquisitive: :laugh4:
Watchman
07-03-2006, 00:30
I recall reading from quite well informed sources the Israeli state budget for the West Bank colonies kind of multiplies several times after the Oslo Accords got force-fed to Arafat. "Given land" my ass.
Anyway, the two sides are pretty much stuck in their own trenches, and are apparently infested with too many short-sighted and narrow-minded fanatics to recognize the fairly glaringly obvious solutions that would be beneficial for everyone on the long term.
Israel has way too much in the way of religious and idealistic junk hanging on the land issue in general and the colony issue in particular to ever do the things which would make the Palestinian public grudgingly accept peace and virtually strip the militants of both their legitimacy and their grassroots support. One imagines the better-established legal (as in, by Israeli terms; the lot are categorically and massively illegal under various international accords and treaties) colonies have some economic ignificance, but it is difficult to imagine the costs of maintaining and defending them and the endless cycle of mutual violence don't way outweight any such; in any case such considerations are entirely irrelevant to the Israeli ultras, who'll happily "colonize" a rocky ill worth about nothing with a couple of trailers just because it is, supposedly, sacred land promised to them by JHVH the Big Kahuna Himself (they're incidentally known for terrorizing and bullying Palestinian civilians too...). Betcha a lot of Israeli military brass detest those guys for all the extra work they cause.
All they'd really need to do is dump the idiocy about Biblical Israel, stop hogging all the valuable land, and give (back to) the Palestinians enough land and natural resources (chiefly farmland and water deposits) to try to build a viable state and economy with. If they gave a spur in the north to the Med so the Palestinians have a decent port there'd be also the bonus of getting a buffer between Israel proper and the troublesome Lebanon.
The Palestinians don't really have anything right now except a bunch of slums and a smattering of farmland on whatever wasteland Israel hasn't grabbed, most of it merrily crisscrossed by Israeli roads and suchlike too which add a whole lot of extra irritant factors to their already difficult life. And a lot of bitterness stemming from that, obviously. So, naturally, they stand to gain a whole lot from any decent compromise solution.
In their case it's not what they can do right now - because the fact is they can't stop fighting the guerilla war, if only because they need to do something other than lie there and get crapped on and the political way alone is unlikely to work (since US and its veto in the UN has Israel's ass covered). Plus odds are "giving up the fight" would make whoever did it really unpopular with the general populace given the situation it is living in.
If they one day get the working basics they need, however, odds are the general populace suddenly finds the idea of constant violence way less attractive - it's easy to be willing to risk all when you've little to nothing to lose in the first place, and an entirely different thing when you have a real future and a life of something else thanstressful squalor to look forwards to.
Kind of more to lose, you know ? If they have the option, normal people as a group always prefer a peaceful, largely uneventful and above all safe life to constanly worrying about getting something explosive dropped on them.
Plus they'd have a whole lot less spite accumulated against Israel every single day too; the militants ought to be out of popular support right fast for continuing the fight, although whoever could claim credit for bringing about such a peace deal could look forward to a fair bit of electoral support instead.
x-dANGEr
07-03-2006, 13:04
So what should Israel do? Allow militants to continually bomb Israel proper even after they evacutaed Gaza and gave it to Palestine?This question made me bang my head into the wall. Maybe Israel should free the arab/muslim/christian/etc.. prisoners it has?
Why do you people hate the Jews? Why do you make them your scape goats?As someone has already said, it isn't about Jews, it's about Israel. I have a couple of Jewish friends, who day and day say sorry to me, but they never expect one from me (I'm not implying that the death of Israeli civilians is 'justified', or that I support it, just that some Jews don't even expect an apology to it, because they may regret what they did?).
Can't you see the Palestinians hide behind women and children, fully excpecting them to be killed- in order to make a PR victory?!
Scrape that off. They don't want them to be killed, but they don't want to surrender either.
P.S. I haven't been able to keep up because I had a very busy time, but I see somepeople had offered some nice un-biased opinions, which pleases me.
EDIT:
But then again , some of the critics of Palestine believe that the Israelis have a right to exterminate the arab from Palestine. Oh well......
B*. Crap. Evidence? ~;)
Excellent post. I don't understand why people think that Israel should just allow itself to be attacked without any retaliation or effort to defend their citizens. But then again, some of the critics of Israel believe that the Palestinians have a right to "exterminate the Jew from Palestine". Oh well....
Then I can't understand why Israel wouldn't defend itself by giving back all the prisoners.
I seem to remember Arafat making the same empty promises back in the day. Face it, the Palestinians will never have peace with Israel even if they wanted it. The Middle East needs a poster child for its misery and the Palestinians will always be kicked around because the Jews hate them and all of their muslim brothers bodering Israel will never truelly help them because they serve a purpose. Its an endless cycle that won't end because neither side truelly wants it to.
I can see how Arafat was rewarded, by being trapped; better said sieged in his own castle, and later on killing him (Some people say they did, others say they didn't, but am with the 'did' group).
Gee, if the Palestinians are so righteous, why did they send hundreds of rockets into a single Israeli town bordering Gaza after Israel pulled out of Gaza - with no concessions from the Palestinians?
Israel is under constant attack, but still, people act as if that is the only choice of the Palestinians...wtf?
Why could they not just stop the violence? Israel is not attacking them, but has given up land on their own.
It is simply that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel. They are not content to live and let live. If the positions of power were switched, there would have been another genocide already.
AFAIK, they haven't bombarded it except till the beach event. And again, the goal of all this is to regain the 'prisoners' held by Israel..
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