View Full Version : The Holy Land: Who's land?
Divinus Arma
06-30-2006, 05:48
A poll. Who is rightfully entitled to the "holy land"?
Don't like your options for one, so my vote is, Gah!
Also none of those three mentioned faiths have anymore claim than the others. The area is an area of ingnorance and I think your options embody that continued ingnorance.
Just because the prophet decided Jeruzalem should be islamic doesn't change that it was the homeland of christianity and the jews. Islam has no religious claims on it as far as I am concerned, go to mecca mia muca's.
Papewaio
06-30-2006, 07:27
Because this may lead to intellectual discussion I have added the antithesis of that into the poll. Gah! has been added to for all the donkey voters and those hung like one.
PanzerJaeger
06-30-2006, 07:37
I chose the Jews, as their claim is really older than that of the Christians. I would rather see the Buddhists get it than the muslims.
I don't care who's got the older claims it should be for whoever wants to live there. It should be the nation of Palestine but not guided by religon. Would be better if they all just lived together and worshiped as they pleased. Nice dreaming though, uh?
I voted GAH, and yes am hung like a donkey.
What's this? Religious discrimination. Is it your contention that only Islam, Christianity and Judaism hold Jerusalem to be a "Holy" city? And what is your definition of "Holy Land" in this context. Boundaries? Because that'll add a few more religions depending on where you define the borders. :wink:
Just for your amusement, I'll give you a couple to get you started on your research. Druzes and Baha'i.
In the meanwhile, I'll vote Gah because the poll is otherwise meaningless.
Ironside
06-30-2006, 09:36
As said before, define the Holy Land.
And neither options seems good so it's a Gah vote for me.
Although making Jerusalem into a free city that belongs to none and at the same time all would be interesting (not sure if it would work though), but not the way that Eclectic suggest. That's a separated city, Berlin style and that usually doesn't help reducing the "we vs them" felling.
doc_bean
06-30-2006, 09:40
If I were God, I'd have burned it down to the ground a long time ago...
Banquo's Ghost
06-30-2006, 09:45
Well, since some are so hung up on prior claim, I vote for the Egyptians. :2thumbsup:
More seriously, no state should be defined as belonging to a religion. It's guaranteed trouble.
Any attempt to define who gets the the 'holy land' on religion is to be sneered at (after all their religion is the one true one right?). In practical terms I'd day as cube said: Everyone who lives there is entitled to it. The Palestinians should stop the terrorism, and the Israelis should give them a say in the course of the nation.
So much fuss other an somewhat dry hot and crappy stretch of land based upon the presumption that it's sacred. The blood spilt over it makes anything but holy.
I´m thinking......Timeshare!
more seriously, like was said already above....just having religion as the basis for the creation of a state is asking for trouble.:book:
English assassin
06-30-2006, 10:12
Part of it seems to be a failed state, in possession of WMD, using high grade military weaponry against a civilian population. (Incidentally is it just me or is the deliberate destruction of essential civilian infrastructure of no military significance a war crime?)
The other part seems to support a major terrorist movement.
I would say ALL the current occupants have forfeited any rights they may have to it. A plague on both their houses.
Al Khalifah
06-30-2006, 10:23
This discussion doesn't really go anywhere. You either have two avenues to go down:
a) who got there first? - didn't the Israelites flee to Israel anyway? The Middle-East is the region of the world who's ownership has changed the most times out of anywhere. It depends on how far back you want to go as to who you will decide it belongs to. It's been part of Persia, the Argead Empire, several of its Successor States, an independant Kingdom of Judea, the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Egyptian Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, Palestine and now Israel to name but a few. Take your pick and then argue your case from there.
b) who has the better claim to it? - since this is a matter of religous belief, any such argument would never be accepted by the other side on any level. While most religions are tolerant of other religions, this tends to not be true with regards to sentiments that claim their religion is false or innaccurate. By saying your religion has more claim to the Holy Land than mine is tandamount to saying that my religion is wrong and yours is right.
In reality, the ownership of the Holy Land will be determined as it always has been - not by divine right or the will of the Gods - but by who has the most effective military power in the area to control the cities and the surrounding regions. At the moment, this is Israel. Hence, Israel controls the Holy Land.
Watchman
06-30-2006, 10:26
Too either-or poll.
So, atypically, I voted Gah.
"Who was there first" is a really stupid argument, all the more so as the details of all those folk movements all those millenia ago when the Semitic peoples migrated from the east aren't exactly clear to begin with.
Moreover, that's totally irrelevant. The English aren't going to cede Britain to the Welsh and Irish just because the Celtic claim to the land is as such older than the Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian and Norman ones. Conversely, I presume you can imagine the reaction if the English went and tried to claim they have some sorts of rights to the (relatively) old(er) Anglo-Saxon homelands in northern Germany ? The Hungarians sure as heck aren't going to cede Hungary to... well, I don't really even know who... just because the Hungarian-Magyars colonized the locale only a little over a millenia ago. The Americans aren't going to pack up and leave the continent to what's left of the Native Americans either, I imagine - and I doubt if the rest of the world would be particularly thrilled at them "coming back home" either.
I really do fail to see why Israel would be a sui generis.
That aside, it's not going to go away either. Neither are the Palestinians - if nothing else the neighboring Arab states don't want them and never did either, and most of them would really be too poor to move anyway.
Which means "rightful entitlement" can go hang itself with an itchy rope and the two sides need to work out a compromise. "Rightful entitlement" particularly deserves the noose as incompatible jingoist assertions of it are among the more major reasons the two sides can't talk properly to each other.
Watchman
06-30-2006, 10:30
Israel. That is all.See what I meant ?
See what I meant ?
I responded with my opinion on the matter to a poll asking who the land belonged to.
If you feel the need to take my opinion which disagrees with yours as some indication or proof of whatever grand enlightened take on the matter you have, so be it.
macsen rufus
06-30-2006, 11:23
IIRC Abraham was an Elamite. That puts the Hebrew homeland somewhere in southern Iraq ..... no, scratch that thought, it's complicated enough already :oops:
Watchman
06-30-2006, 11:27
Weren't the Elamites among those mountain tribes that kept raiding the arable lands of Mesopotamia waaaaaay back in the day...? The Iranian highlands always seemed to have a steady supply of new "barbarians" to plague the riverine farmers...
Which really just illustrates the general uselessness and absurdity of trying to find particular modern significance in where someone's distant nominal forebears lived four-six thousand years ago.
IIRC Abraham was an Elamite. That puts the Hebrew homeland somewhere in southern Iraq ..... no, scratch that thought, it's complicated enough already :oops:
Near the ancient city of Ur IIRC?
Incongruous
06-30-2006, 13:18
All three should have part of it.
In fact it should just be a UN. zone.
Ianofsmeg16
06-30-2006, 13:24
Texas
The Wizard
06-30-2006, 13:29
Useless and archaic debate that should have stopped at the end of the Aliyah Beth.
That the debate surrounding Israel and the so-called "Palestinians" is still raging today is a sign that nobody is really interested in ending the conflict. For if we are still in this stage, still refusing to recognize the fact that both parties are there and not going to leave, then what is the chance that the conflict will ever be solved?
AntiochusIII
06-30-2006, 13:42
Deliverance of a fool's grievances:
I.
I feel most aggrieved that all of you managed to fall on this hellhole and claim that such a small and bloodied region be called Holy, whereas I would testify that it is Deseret, aka Nevada&Utah, with a special emphasis on the former, is the Holy Land.
Why? Vegas.
II.
It is very much an affront to my religious beliefs that only three crappy mainstream religions got represented as those who can call a land, The Holy Land. My religion determines that, indeed, Tibet is the Holiest of lands, especially if we consider the fact that it, according to my religion's truths, produce the best and holiest spaghetti in the world. After all, we indy religions need more exposure for sake of popularity and the inevitable consequence of Enlightenment. My religion demands that something must be done to address this.
This affront shall be paid in blood...of the pigs...to make meatballs. You get the idea.
III.
This is the most unfair of all grievances yet. It humbles me, angers me, enrages me, that these false ethnicities dare claim the land most Holy to my people as their own. Indeed, I and my fellow Klingons feel utterly enraged that these foul Earthlings dare to claim our Holy Land as their Holy Land. I swear that this will not end well, namely, we shall launch our Holy war to recover the precious land and expel these infidels out once and for all. Would you allow a hippy to dare build his treehouse in your land? Surely not, and it's the same!
Mark our words. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Three tastes of grievances for your choosing. Tip 15%
:wacky:
Kralizec
06-30-2006, 13:53
The Kaanites.
GAH
Reenk Roink
06-30-2006, 14:28
I'm going to have to retard thought and go with 'Gah' here, not because I think that it is the most correct option as compared to the others, which are oversimplified and restrict one to a very superficial understanding of the situation, but rather because I simply do not posses the mental capacity to understand anything but the gaggle of geese...
Retarded thought for the day: Who has conquered the Holy Land and is in military control of it possesses the land... :wink:
I've got my own plan for this. Since the Israelis and Palestinians can't play nice, no matter how many dead nor how many peace summits, it's time to change the game.
Israel gets North Dakota, the PA gets South Dakota. And we give the Holy Land to the Navajo, so they can build more casinos. Everybody's a winner.
solypsist
06-30-2006, 15:04
the people now known as israelis were offered huge tracts of south america back in 1948 when they were vying to push the palestinians out. so the dakotas is a bit of a stretch.
I've got my own plan for this. Since the Israelis and Palestinians can't play nice, no matter how many dead nor how many peace summits, it's time to change the game.
Israel gets North Dakota, the PA gets South Dakota. And we give the Holy Land to the Navajo, so they can build more casinos. Everybody's a winner.
The Spartan (Returns)
06-30-2006, 15:08
As a catholic-christian i say, anybody who wants to live there, live there. so its GAH for me.
the people now known as israelis were offered huge tracts of south america back in 1948 when they were vying to push the palestinians out. so the dakotas is a bit of a stretch.
Que? Never heard of this before, got some linkage for me please?
Gah!lastine belongs, in it's entirety to the people of Gah!. And I'm including the Gah!za strip in that as well.
yesdachi
06-30-2006, 15:57
I propose a competition! Whoever can create the best caricature of their “god” wins.
Duke Malcolm
06-30-2006, 16:03
The British
I propose a competition! Whoever can create the best caricature of their “god” wins.
Ya that worked fine last time, give the embassy's a warning in advance please?
As far as I'm concerned, it's dirt like any other, so it can be fought over like any other piece of dirt - whoever has the most guns wins.
The British
I thought the British gave it to the Jews. I'm so confused.:dizzy2:
I say we make it Gahland since Gah is most voted for.
Gah
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-30-2006, 22:30
1948 UN resolutions defined Jerusalem as an International Zone, and it should be. the Isrealis can have their Capital in Tel Aviv.
I think the Jews and Christians have stonger claims than the Muslims though, since it is their first Holy City and Islam's third.
IrishArmenian
07-01-2006, 01:38
Everyone should have access to it. Not just three religeons. Everyone, and the Israeli's and Palestinians should stop fighting on Holy Land. They are desecrating it and staining it with blood. Shame on all of you. Go to your room, Israel, and Palestine, we are currently making you one so go sit in the corner. I say this as a Christian.
RabidGibbon
07-01-2006, 02:36
When I was younger I was pro-isreali, after all what war gamer could fail to be impressed by the antics of the IDF in it struggles to save the Isreali nation? Surrounded by enemies but still fighting valiantly - It sounds like a fairy tale! Or at least it did on the discovery channel!
Then I started to read the "independant" and thought maybe the palestinians had a point. Perhaps Isreal was an evil tyrant state imposing its will on the Lebanon and generally being a ****.
But now I think, surely the majority of citizens on both sides just want peace at all costs, (although I don't know because I've never talked to them) and all I can say is I hope they get it, whilst disposing of those on both sides who seem determined to continue this conflict in order to advance their own reputations.
PS: I voted GAH!
Whenever someone decides that some land is their Holy Land©, bad things happen.
Gah...
:gah2: It belongs to the most rightful faction of course:
The highly evolved cockroaches of the future. :laugh4:
The Spartan (Returns)
07-01-2006, 15:39
Everyone should have access to it. Not just three religeons. Everyone, and the Israeli's and Palestinians should stop fighting on Holy Land. They are desecrating it and staining it with blood. Shame on all of you. Go to your room, Israel, and Palestine, we are currently making you one so go sit in the corner. I say this as a Christian.i agree as a catholic christian!
I say nuke the place then no one can have it case closed. Our children will thank us
IrishArmenian
07-02-2006, 05:55
i agree as a catholic christian!
Now if only the Patriarch and Pope could agree as an Easterner (me) and a Catholic (Spartan) agree! That would truly be great, but I think your new Pope (Benedict or something) seems to be very very conservative.
I say nuke the place then no one can have it case closed. Our children will thank us.
What happens when a child asks where Jesus' tomb was? What happens when a man wants to see the place where he beleives Muhammed ascended to heaven? A family wants to visit the Wailing wall to pay their respects, what happened? No one would go through witht that, because that seems to be the one thing that EVERYONE can agree on. Even if someone is an Aethist or of another fate, he mite want to visit Crusade battle sites. If I get the money, I would love to tour the Holy Land, view Jesus' tomb, the hill at Calvary, and other places such as that. It would be an extreme injustice to take that area away from the world.
Perplexed
07-02-2006, 06:00
I propose a competition! Whoever can create the best caricature of their “god” wins.
Denmark?
Watchman
07-03-2006, 00:37
IMHO assorted American sectarians win that one hands down. Rarely have I seen as ludicrously tacky renditions of Eden as in their pamphlets.
Give me a map and I'll point you to the valley in Azerbaijan which seems a possible location of the valley later to become known as Eden by the Semitic people who migrated from there down to Sumer and then to the Levant and who wrote their religious legends down until they became accepted as the "origins" of humans. The fact that, at the time, they were only one small tribe among many who lived in the region and humanity had been around for much longer altogether doesn't affect the beliefs of the true-believers. :wink:
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