They just want to fit in, right.

[Fragony]

http://www.islamchannel.tv/forums/showForumReply.aspx?forumID=7189&name=Culture%20and%20Community&catID=6&mode=

Can I have some social exclusion with that please?

Well you anglo-saxons, how do feel about not being welcome on your own soil?

'unislamic enviroment' hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Dâriûsh]

"Your beard must be this long to enter"

[naut]

Whats it all about?

[Tribesman]

Well you anglo-saxons, how do feel about not being welcome on your own soil?

Do you have a problem with people block booking a venue , or is it only a problem if those people are of a religeon that you don't like .:no:

Poor Fragony , it does seem as if you go out of your way to take offence .

"Your beard must be this long to enter"
classic:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Poor Fragony , it does seem as if you go out of your way to take offence .


It's obvious they don't like being around brits, social exclusion my derriere, they isolate themselves. Replace muslims with 'whites' and check the score on your offencomatic. We are all equal huh, some just a little bit more.

Of course you see it differently.

[Al Khalifah]

Why do this? It is blatant intollerance of another's culture. Not because they wish to block book the venue, but feel that going on a day where another culture is on display (the indigenous culture, mind) is not acceptable.

They are essentially only willing to go to this place on the proviso that it is completely transformed to suit their own preferences. That is intollerant.

[Tribesman]

Replace muslims with 'whites' and check the score on your offencomatic
Is there any provision to ban people from attending due to their creed or colour ?
Nope if it was whites only , Muslims only or only people with green skin then it would be offensive , but it isn't is it .
Of course you see it differently.
Yep , I don't give a damn what people want to do with their spare time .

They are essentially only willing to go to this place on the proviso that it is completely transformed to suit their own preferences. That is intollerant.
Nope they are exercising their rights as citizens, it wold be no different if a leather fetish group block booked the venue and said that anyone is welcome to attend as long as they wear leather .

[Al Khalifah]

They're not just posing restrictions on who can attend though. They are also enforcing changes to the actual venue itself. In other words - isolating themselves from the influence of other cultures and attitudes.

[Fragony]

Replace muslims with 'whites' and check the score on your offencomatic
Is there any provision to ban people from attending due to their creed or colour ?
Nope if it was whites only , Muslims only or only people with green skin then it would be offensive , but it isn't is it .


Ok that was a bit dumb.

But it's not about them hiring an atractionpark, it's about that they won't come unless there are no infidels. All the multicultists cry social exclusion, when it is obviously voluntary isolation. Conclusion, they don't want to fit in.

[Tribesman]

They are also enforcing changes to the actual venue itself. In other words - isolating themselves from the influence of other cultures and attitudes.
So what , they are paying for it , would you have a problem if it was Vegans doing it and they told the parks owners not to sell animal products on the day ?:inquisitive:

They're not just posing restrictions on who can attend though.
There are two restrictions they are placing , do you know what they are ? apart from buying a ticket in the first place:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Do you know how many restrictions the venue itself has on who can attend on any other day ?

[Al Khalifah]

For me it is summed up by the words:

Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment

That my friend, is ISOLATIONISM. Because the culture is NOT Islamic, they do not wish to see it. Hence they are shielding themselves from a culture which is NOT their own.
If I said to you, I'd quite like to visit Saudi Arabia but I'm rather but off by the Islamic environment would you say that is wrong or right? Or rather, I don't want to go to Saudi Arabia because its an unchristian environment.

[King Ragnar]

*shudders* Sickening, if anyone who wasnt muslim did this, the muslims would go around beheading people because of it.

[Tribesman]

That my friend, is ISOLATIONISM. Because the culture is NOT Islamic, they do not wish to see it. Hence they are shielding themselves from a culture which is NOT their own.

So what ? Do you invite a Jehovahs witness' to a Chritmas celebration, do you invite a Muslim round to help you slaughter a pig ?

Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment
So how would that be if it was...."many of us including myself love supermarkets , but are put off because they are not Kosher" ?
My god that's outrageous how dare they not fit in :dizzy2:

But it's not about them hiring an atractionpark, it's about that they won't come unless there are no infidels.
Errrrr...it is about hiring a public venue , and has nothing to do with the presence of infidels , or are they hiring all new staff for the day ?

Conclusion, they don't want to fit in.
Conclusion , you have a problem with Muslims don't you:juggle2:

[Fragony]

Errrrr...it is about hiring a public venue , and has nothing to do with the presence of infidels , or are they hiring all new staff for the day ?

No it's not, and probably, but who knows, they just might tolerate a non-muslim staff.

Conclusion , you have a problem with Muslims don't you:juggle2:

Yup, and it's getting worse each day. It's of no use tolerating the intolerant.

[Tribesman]

No it's not
So this topic about a group block booking a public venue is not about a group block booking a public venue????????....rigggght:dizzy2:


Yup, and it's getting worse each day. It's of no use tolerating the intolerant.
Hey I can tolerate you Frag , don't worry no need to put yourself down like that , leave that to me , I know its no use trying to enlighten your thought process , though that process does seem to get worse every day .:2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

So this topic about a group block booking a public venue is not about a group block booking a public venue????????....rigggght:dizzy2:

Indeed, check title 'They just want to fit in, right.' It's about it's implications, a great word for scrabble I might add.

Hey I can tolerate you Frag , don't worry no need to put yourself down like that , leave that to me , I know its no use trying to enlighten your thought process , though that process does seem to get worse every day .:2thumbsup:

How nice of you, still you seem to be the only one disagreeing with me on this. So congrats, you got what you always wanted, finally a minority.

[rory_20_uk]

I don't like it.

But our society would be worse if there were laws to stop people doing it.

Their money, their rules.

I enjoy going to a Club in London. No women except in 2 rooms, code of behaviour, code of dress. No general public. It's as far from the masses as possible, and I love it.

~:smoking:

[Husar]

So what , they are paying for it , would you have a problem if it was Vegans doing it and they told the parks owners not to sell animal products on the day ?:inquisitive:
Yes, I would call them crazy.

I think excluding some people is always weird and excluding people because of their culture is just as weird and wrong as excluding people because of their race or colour IMO.

Would you mind if I booked the place and let only white supremacists in because I don´t like seeing all those of "lower" races?:inquisitive:

[JAG]

Alton Towers is great fun - having been there just 6 weeks ago - hope they have a great time!

[Kralizec]

It migt just be me, but I didn't spot a beard requirement to enter. If they want a no pork/no beer themed day, it's their money :bow:

If there'd been a Hindu or a hannukah day, would this thread even have existed?

[Fragony]

If there'd been a Hindu or a hannukah day, would this thread even have existed?

No, because Hindu's and Hannukah (waht?) don't cause any troubles and thus have no need for multicultists that throw everything on us not accepting them.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I dislike this intensely, how does this sound:

I hire Alton Towers and I exclude anyone who is not a Christian by:

1: Requiring everyone to wear a cross and carry a rosary.

2: Its a Friday, so I only serve fish.

3: No swearing, taking the Lord's name in vain or mocking Christianity.

4: No Pagan symbols which will, btw, close half the rides.

Or how about I just go there and turn a blind eye to those things and enjoy myself.

(In point of fact I'm probably technically guilty of all of the above.)

I don't like the Hijab but I don't go tearing them off Muslim women's heads, do I?

This shows intollerance on a massive scale, about the only good point is the Halal food, which should always be provided, as should Kosha food.

Tollerance is about living with something without having to accept it, every other major religion manages. I can barely remember the last time a Jew, Sikh of Hindu complained about being persecuted, its just Muslims.

Its not even all Muslims but no one, including other Muslims speaks up.

[rory_20_uk]

This shows intollerance on a massive scale, about the only good point is the Halal food, which should always be provided, as should Kosha food.

What do you mean by "always"? Every restaurant? Every resort? If there's money to be made, people stock it. Else bring a lunch.

My friend is gluten intolerant. Should every place have gluten free food? She can't choose this condition, whereas Muslims and Jews choose t eact certain foods.

~:smoking:

[IrishArmenian]

I do not see th big problem with this. They are just renting the park, so they there will be no alkohol, and Islamic-culture food. This doesn't mean that ONLY Muslims are allowed. I assume that a non-Islamic person would be let in to the park, as long as they heeded the Islamic rules.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Alton Towers is great fun - having been there just 6 weeks ago - hope they have a great time!

You don't mind the oppression of women, then? Something makes me think most will be wearing those burqas (or similar dress).

The problem with this is, as Fragony and others pointed out, isolation from the society they live in. It seems Tribesman cannot see the forest for the trees, and ignores the main problem here; these people want to exclude themselves from society. They don't want to integrate with all the other people in England. They are not happy, it seems, with a society that includes people of different religions, or does not follow their religious guidelines.

Crazed Rabbit

[Big_John]

wow.

can't spell it out any more simply than tribesman already has. but the fear and hatred being displayed here under a weak guise of concern for integration is astonishing.

just, wow.

[Reenk Roink]

You don't mind the oppression of women, then? Something makes me think most will be wearing those burqas (or similar dress).

Hmm...oppression...

Perhaps one should ask these women whether they wear it willingly out of religious observation or unwillingly?

[Fragony]

but the fear and hatred being displayed here under a weak guise of concern for integration is astonishing.

Concern of integration is not the issue, actually I prefer it that way. But I am not going to take blame for another person's blatantly obvious refusal, and I am certainly not happy about the millions and millions of euro's that are pumped into a lost cause, namely the integration of muslims into this big shiny cuddly fuzzy thing the completily foolish like to call multiculture. They don't want it, basta.

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh, thou, the members of the Org who have common sense, what's wrong with this ?

They pay for it, they book it and thus making arrangements to their wishes. Whoever is obliged from outside? If you want it, you'll pay for it and meet there. What's up with this?

Fragony, I know you are problemous with Muslims however I should also add that I'm sick of seeing every thread of yours compiled of such nonsense anti-Muslim propaganda.

[GoreBag]

Big deal. I attend gatherings like this all the time. People who aren't into death metal can come if they want to, but chances are, they won't have much fun. But hey, we pay to book the place, pay to bring the bands on stage, pay to get in, pay to buy beer, pay to buy merch...anyone who has a problem with that is just being an arsepick.

[Silver Rusher]

I don't like it.

But our society would be worse if there were laws to stop people doing it.

Their money, their rules.
I agree wholeheartedly with EVERYTHING in the above quote.


shouldnt we get discounted ticket prices seeing as we are muslim!
:jawdrop: This person has to be joking...

[JAG]

The saddest thing about this thread is that those who denounce muslims for not 'integrating' and 'getting involved in society', probably have not a single muslim friend amongst them. You are so scared about these evil people, maybe you should actually get involved yourself and meet these people, who you continually decry for being so different and dangerous.

Personally, I live within 30 minutes of Heathrow and thus I live in the biggest dumping ground of immigrants in this country and I have never had a problem with a muslim person or any other 'foreign' person that I havent had with a 'white anglo saxon'.

[Tribesman]

Tollerance is about living with something without having to accept it, every other major religion manages. I can barely remember the last time a Jew, Sikh of Hindu complained about being persecuted, its just Muslims.

So you cannot remember the Christians complaining about Sunday opening , sports on Sunday , protest marches on a Sunday ?
What about the problem with finding a new Jewish cemetry for London , they just won't fit in with local burial places don't ya know .
Sihks , Hindus , very upset about the problems local laws tried to impose on the carrying of swords wasn't there , or the older one about crash helmets .

This rubbish about the Muslims not fitting in is exactly the same crap that was written about the Jewish population in the 19/20th centuries . In fact if you read the complaints at the time about the Federation of Synagogs organised days out , festivals and celebrations , then you find it is exactly the same rubbish as is being spouted now about Muslims practically word for word .
Come to think of it , it is the same crap that is written about immigrants or peoplewhoo are different everywhere .

The problem with this is, as Fragony and others pointed out, isolation from the society they live in. It seems Tribesman cannot see the forest for the trees, and ignores the main problem here; these people want to exclude themselves from society. They don't want to integrate with all the other people in England. They are not happy, it seems, with a society that includes people of different religions, or does not follow their religious guidelines.

Thats strange Rabbit , I thought you were in favour of people like that .
Or is it only people like that if they have lots of guns and live in a compound ?

[Husar]

Hmm, I rethought about the issue and have to say there are two passages that bothered me, maybe I misunderstood:

1. "All childrens' areas will be limited to sisters only." What exactly does that mean, who is meant with "sisters"? Muslim women? or small girls who have a brother?

2. "Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment, now's your chance to experience the thrills of the park in a halal environment inshaAllah!" I may have overreacted, but it sounds a bit like our culture is not good enough for them, like they feel their culture was superior. And because I think we are all the same, that hurt me. But as I said, maybe I misunderstood.

Apart from that I have no problems, I only dislike turks.~;)

[Kralizec]

Hmm, I rethought about the issue and have to say there are two passages that bothered me, maybe I misunderstood:

1. "All childrens' areas will be limited to sisters only." What exactly does that mean, who is meant with "sisters"? Muslim women? or small girls who have a brother?

Yeah I was wondering what that meant too. I guess they mean little girls.

[LeftEyeNine]

No, "sisters" mean here the way they use the "brother" for. I don't know about the Arabic concept for it but in Turkish the seperation of women from men in a gathering (only religiously oriented) is called "haremlik - selamlık". That means the women will reside in children's areas while the gathering takes place.


2. "Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment, now's your chance to experience the thrills of the park in a halal environment inshaAllah!" I may have overreacted, but it sounds a bit like our culture is not good enough for them, like they feel their culture was superior. And because I think we are all the same, that hurt me. But as I said, maybe I misunderstood.

The claim of cultural superiority is nothing new nor one-sided ~;)


Apart from that I have no problems, I only dislike turks.

But I adore you, Nuss ~D (I miss the chat sessions, gah..)

But seriously, everyone has the right to like/dislike. My regards, I think myself as a German and sometimes I'd simply get frustrated with Turkish populace over there.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think they might mean all muslim women. Reading that thread, some of them refer to each others as 'sisters'.


The saddest thing about this thread is that those who denounce muslims for not 'integrating' and 'getting involved in society', probably have not a single muslim friend amongst them. You are so scared about these evil people, maybe you should actually get involved yourself and meet these people, who you continually decry for being so different and dangerous.

I was wondering when the tired accusations of fear and hate would come up. I guess we know now. After all, it's easier to just accuse than actually debate.


Thats strange Rabbit , I thought you were in favour of people like that .
Or is it only people like that if they have lots of guns and live in a compound ?

Sounds like you need some reading analysis skills.

LEN, I'm not against them booking this so much as their reasons for doing so.
All these people bringing up comparisons to vegetarians, etc., don't realize that vegetarians don't try to exclude themselves from the rest of society.

Crazed Rabbit

[Husar]

The claim of cultural superiority is nothing new nor one-sided ~;)
But wrong nonetheless.~;)


But I adore you, Nuss ~D (I miss the chat sessions, gah..)
I love you, too, Wuss.:2thumbsup:


But seriously, everyone has the right to like/dislike. My regards, I think myself as a German and sometimes I'd simply get frustrated with Turkish populace over there.
Some of them are probably weird, but I haven´t had any problems so far and my neighborhood has quite a few turks. Besides, one of my best friends here is of turkish origin.:2thumbsup:

[Papewaio]

So its a private venue as they have booked it all out. But some are annoyed that they will theme it in a non-multicultural way.

So should the Opera theaters which are so staid with their traditions be forced to play Kylie to make them more acceptable to the masses?

Should we drain half our swimming pools so that skateboarders don't feel threatened when going to an aquatic center as their chosen hobby is not generally looked out for?

Should we put gambling dens and pubs in every Church so that a wider swath of society is represented?

Should we get incensed that our local Indian restaurants don't serve steak'n'kidney pies?

[Al Khalifah]

The saddest thing about this thread is that those who denounce muslims for not 'integrating' and 'getting involved in society', probably have not a single muslim friend amongst them. You are so scared about these evil people, maybe you should actually get involved yourself and meet these people, who you continually decry for being so different and dangerous.
Ahahahahahahahaha..... ahahahahhah... ok ok I'm done, I'm done... no not finished yet ahahahahhah.

Ok now. You claim that those in this thread who denounce muslims for not integrating with the rest of soceity probably don't have a single muslim friend amongst us. This reminded me of a conversation I had with my muslim NEIGHBOUR and FRIEND after the 7/7 attacks. We were talking about possible motivations for this sort of thing. My neighbour used to live in Leeds not far from the area where one of the bombers lived. I asked him why he thought muslims were both targetted and targetting the rest of society. He said that - and I try to quote him his best I can - that he felt that 'muslims did not try nearly hard enough to mingle with other groups in society.' He spoke out about the way many muslims, including his own parents are unwilling to integrate with other ethnic groups - specifically Jewish and Hindu communities. Unlike other groups, many muslim immigrants to Britain have brought a lot of baggage with them.
He was of course keen to differentiate between many younger British-born muslims who he feels are an active part of their local communities and others who are either already prejudiced or have been made so by their parents. The problem is that those who do wish to integrate with the rest of society are often prevented from doing so by those who wish to impose this shield on them and I would be the first to admit these people are on both sides of the theological fence.

My concern is purely that this kind of activity is just maintaing that cultural wall. If there is no mingling then there is no communication. Without communication there can be no understanding and so hatred and conflict will flourish.

Please don't make such blanket or ignorant accusations. There are muslims who dislike this kind of thing - because of the cultural wall it builds around them. Multiculturalism does not mean everyone living in their own little compartmentalised little ghettos and never integrating with other groups and trying new things.

[caravel]

Arrghh... yet again the islamic demon appears! And this time it's invading Alton Towers! So they won't integrate? Big deal, what do you expect them to do, go around the local pubs, wearing England tops, handing out chapatis? They've been quite literally despised since the first moment they've set foot on British soil, by the average person that can't tell a muslim from a sikh anyway, so what did you expect? So have the black people, and the Irish weren't too popular either (I should know). And now, quite obviously unworldly, people demand that they integrate into a society that has never truly excepted them anyway!

This has only made them stronger however, as it always does, and in some cities turned them into surprising entrepeneurs that have totally outpaced the "natives". They rent houses, run shops, taxi firms, and other companies while the "natives" simply sit around and moan on the dole. I can walk into a JobCentre in a primarily asian district and the vast majority of people I will see waiting there at any time of the day will not be from the muslim or wider asian community. Also I am aware of a college not far from where I grew up that is now almost totally populated with asian students. The local white teenagers are too busy hanging about outside the local off-licence drinking and smoking, or vandalising bus shelters to go into further education. This district is primarily white only a tiny fraction of asians live there. The asian students commute a long way. And this is where all the resentment comes from of course. Because they succeed without integrating, or with only integrating to a certain level, and without conforming, they are hated by a certain group of narrow minded hypocrites because they do well in life.

What is so wrong about them booking this venue and imposing these rules? Their religion is such that it is necessary or they would not be able to go there at all. Does it hurt me that they've done this? No. Alton Towers will be open to the masses the rest of the year so where's the problem?

I suppose the English style bars and nightclubs that litter Spain, the Balearics and parts of Greece should all be closed down as well? I mean that's not Greek or Spanish culture is it? If they're not closed they should only serve spanish food and drink and the staff should only speak in spanish. And if the English don't understand well that's their damned problem isn't it? Should have made more effort to integrate! ¿Qué piensas? ¿Buena idea?

[Tribesman]

Sounds like you need some reading analysis skills.

So that must be a different Rabbit that posts in support of religeous nuts who isolate themselves , hate their government , wider society and anyone that doesn't share their strange views on life .
You really must stop other people posting under your name .:dizzy2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Sounds like you need some reading analysis skills.

So that must be a different Rabbit that posts in support of religeous nuts who isolate themselves , hate their government , wider society and anyone that doesn't share their strange views on life .
You really must stop other people posting under your name .:dizzy2:

I guess I'll have to spell it out for you:
Thinking that the government was not right in laying siege to a house full of children to 'save' them does not equate to support for the thinking of the group leaders.

Similar to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" if you can understand that.

Crazed Rabbit

[PanzerJaeger]

Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment

I wonder if the author of these words takes time to consider just how many Europeans are put off by his very presence.

Its sad to see the once powerful European continent taken over by these disgusting "people". Hopefully Europeans will wake up and take action before it becomes..


Many of us including myself love Europe but are put off by the unislamic environment

[Joker85]

Another friendly muslim get together in Europe? How could that possibly not turn out good...

https://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4607/ncart086ft.jpg

[Papewaio]

What is it with people who believe that God is on their side and that they are righteous feel the need to cover their faces? Why the desire to always burn something (flag, effigy, cross) and why are the majority of their signs so inane?

I've got to get The Insane Guide to Religious Fundamentalist Rallies with Fires, Sign Writing and Dress Code.

[Spetulhu]

What is it with people who can't see the difference between:
a) silly religiously-motivated protests demanding society conform to that religion
b) religious people hiring a venue for a day, banning certain things there

Isn't alternative b) an example of muslims trying to fit in? They hired the place! They didn't demonstrate outside, protesting the evil unislamic ways and demanding it be stopped! :furious3:

[Tribesman]

Its sad to see the once powerful European continent taken over by these disgusting "people".
Well thats a surprise Panzer , can you suggest a solution for these "people" .

This rubbish about the Muslims not fitting in is exactly the same crap that was written about the Jewish population in the 19/20th centuries . In fact if you read the complaints at the time about the Federation of Synagogs organised days out , festivals and celebrations , then you find it is exactly the same rubbish as is being spouted now about Muslims practically word for word .

:no:

[Husar]

I wonder if the author of these words takes time to consider just how many Europeans are put off by his very presence.

Its sad to see the once powerful European continent taken over by these disgusting "people". Hopefully Europeans will wake up and take action before it becomes..
Since when do you imperial American isolationist "people" care for us Europeans anyway?:inquisitive:

[Dâriûsh]

I think I can conclude two things:


1) Religious groups should not be allowed to rent amusement parks with their own money.

2) While it was a good idea to put this panzer-person on ignore, people keep quoting him.

[Aenlic]

What is it with people who believe that God is on their side and that they are righteous feel the need to cover their faces? Why the desire to always burn something (flag, effigy, cross) and why are the majority of their signs so inane?

I've got to get The Insane Guide to Religious Fundamentalist Rallies with Fires, Sign Writing and Dress Code.

I think you're on to something, Papewaio! :wink:

As an example, here's one of our homegrown U.S. religious fundamentalists doing what they do best - making the world safe for bigots and fools.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/WBC_protest.jpg

One of those lovable Phelp's family cretins, of course.

Maybe the eugenics people were right and we shouldn't allow some people to breed. I'll buy into that if we start with Fred Phelps's family.

[PanzerJaeger]

Since when do you imperial American isolationist "people" care for us Europeans anyway?:inquisitive:

I am European by birth, and although I disagree with the political climate of the continent, it pains me to see the conquerors become the conquered.

It will not last forever though. Soon, even the most "open-minded" true Europeans will wake up and realize their respective countries are being lost to the [people of various ethnicities and religious sects comprising the islamic faith].

Democracy works both ways. When politicians are forced to pander to a growing muslim population - women suffer, Christians suffer, economies suffer - every aspect of a nation declines in order to please a militant, backwards group of "people".

And if that isnt bad enough, what happens when the muslims have enough voting power to not only influence politics, but to change laws?

Europeans should end the muslim problem by whatever means necessary as soon as possible. Will they? Of course not. The veil of multiculturalism is far thicker than a burka... :shame:

[Aenlic]

Europeans should end the muslim problem by whatever means necessary as soon as possible. Will they? Of course not. The veil of multiculturalism is far thicker than a burka... :shame:

PJ, I'm half-convinced that you're never serious. That this is all just an act to provoke a response, right? I mean, really now, this is just too cliché.

The "muslim problem" should be ended by whatever means necessary?

Are you, by any chance, related to Eichmann or Heydrich? :inquisitive:

Your quote above is about this --><-- far from proposing a "final solution" to the muslim problem, and certainly sounds hauntingly familiar in that context. :skull:

[Husar]

2) While it was a good idea to put this panzer-person on ignore, people keep quoting him.
:laugh4: I´m very sorry my friend and I apologise.:bow:

Panzer, I think you got the whole idea of America wrong, if you were born in Europe and then emigrated to America, the land of milk and guns, you were supposed to leave your Nazi-views behind...:dizzy2:

[Byzantine Prince]

PJ, I'm half-convinced that you're never serious. That this is all just an act to provoke a response, right? I mean, really now, this is just too cliché.

The "muslim problem" should be ended by whatever means necessary?

Are you, by any chance, related to Eichmann or Heydrich? :inquisitive:

Your quote above is about this --><-- far from proposing a "final solution" to the muslim problem, and certainly sounds hauntingly familiar in that context. :skull:
Umm, he is serious, and I am afraid that one day a lot of people will agree with Panzer. All you have to do is study the history and the populaltion statistics and you'll figure out what will happen.

[Fragony]

Umm, he is serious, and I am afraid that one day a lot of people will agree with Panzer. All you have to do is study the history and the populaltion statistics and you'll figure out what will happen.

At least here in the Netherlands the love is kinda gone, no (traditional) racist incidents so far but it's bound to happen at some point of the politicians keep ignoring the problems.

[Divinus Arma]

Only whites can be racist.

[Fragony]

Only whites can be racist.

That is why I call it 'traditional' racist attacks, like in Belgium a few weeks ago. These caused mucho orchestrated civil unrest, because they hardly ever occur. Racist attacks where whites are victims, well a few each day. Let's check the score of the day, one girl hit with a brick and an ambulance team assaulted, but it's still early.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This rubbish about the Muslims not fitting in is exactly the same crap that was written about the Jewish population in the 19/20th centuries . In fact if you read the complaints at the time about the Federation of Synagogs organised days out , festivals and celebrations , then you find it is exactly the same rubbish as is being spouted now about Muslims practically word for word .


Not just Jews either, though they have been on the wrong end of it for the longest.

Substitute Catholic for Muslim in many of these posts and you would have a good representation of the 17th to 19th century attitude of many European countries. All of the above liked to keep themselves to themsleves and have a political and religious allegiance to something other than the established power. This makes people nervous.

And of course, Irish. When I first visited the UK as a nipper in the early seventies, you could see signs on B&Bs stating: No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish; as a matter of course. Not to mention the number of times I was searched and occasionally arrested as a potential terrorist merely because of my accent.

On the other hand, some catholics and Irishmen were actively working against the interests of the state they lived in. Doesn't mean to say every last man-jack of those groups was therefore guilty.

[Aenlic]

Only whites can be racist.


That is quite clearly not so.

An obvious example is the current furor in the black community over the use of the "N" word.

Another example is the use of the word gaijin as an insult in Japan.

Ask a Kurd in Turkey about racism.

Ethnic Cantonese in North America have a term for those who become too Westernized. Look it up.

Arabs have several derogatory, racist words for Persians and vice versa. The same for Tamils and Sinhalese. As a matter of fact, the Tamils seem to have a pejorative term for just about everyone who isn't Tamil.

There's even an occurence of a derogatory term for outsider races in a late Vedic text, from around 500 BCE.

The list goes on an on.

So, white racism is nothing special, Eclectic! Looks like you'll have to find some other way to feel superior. :grin:

[Al Khalifah]

And of course, Irish. When I first visited the UK as a nipper in the early seventies, you could see signs on B&Bs stating: No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish; as a matter of course. Not to mention the number of times I was searched and occasionally arrested as a potential terrorist merely because of my accent.
Of course this only worked one way. I guess that incident of having a brick thrown at my head in Dublin because of my accent didn't happen.

[Divinus Arma]

That is quite clearly not so.

An obvious example is the current furor in the black community over the use of the "N" word.

Another example is the use of the word gaijin as an insult in Japan.

Ask a Kurd in Turkey about racism.

Ethnic Cantonese in North America have a term for those who become too Westernized. Look it up.

Arabs have several derogatory, racist words for Persians and vice versa. The same for Tamils and Sinhalese. As a matter of fact, the Tamils seem to have a pejorative term for just about everyone who isn't Tamil.

There's even an occurence of a derogatory term for outsider races in a late Vedic text, from around 500 BCE.

The list goes on an on.

So, white racism is nothing special, Eclectic! Looks like you'll have to find some other way to feel superior. :grin:

I was pretending to be an American Liberal. In America, if you are black and Republican then you are labeled "Uncle Tom" or a "Good Slave".

American liberals are some of the most racist people you will ever meet. Modern day Republicans see equality. Democrats see power through division. It is in the political interests of the Democratic party to keep minorities disenfrachised. Would anybody listen to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson if they didn't promote the illusion of race division?

It is in a business owner's best interest to hire and train the brightest and most fully qualified. Hiring an individual based on race, any race, makes the business less competitive in this ruthless global economy. Talent. Ability. Tenacity. Integrity. Merit-based employment is a cornerstone of a healthy and competitive business sector.


I understand the logic behind reverse discrimantion and affirmative action. It's to give those who were born with nothing a fighting chance against those who were bron with everything. Take me for example. I was in poverty with no skills. At one point, I didn't even have a high school diploma. Now I finish my MBA next spring. Should I get advantage based on the color of my skin?

Anybody with vision, talent, and commitment can make a better life for themself in America. Skin color is moot to me. Racism, be it hate inspired or charity inspired, is a disease that can only be eradicated by eliminating the differences we create as a society.

[Kralizec]

Anybody with vision, talent, and commitment can make a better life for themself in America. Skin color is moot to me. Racism, be it hate inspired or charity inspired, is a disease that can only be eradicated by eliminating the differences we create as a society.

Very eloquently put, and I agree
:bow:



I don't see how this whole sub-discussion has anything to do with people renting off amusement parks though :inquisitive:
If the anti-party here had argued on the basis that it seems they're segregating genders on this day, or proved that non-muslims can't enter, they'd have a point.
All I see now is the expression of the old "first our theme parks, then sharia law!!!" sentiment from the usual suspects.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Of course this only worked one way. I guess that incident of having a brick thrown at my head in Dublin because of my accent didn't happen.

I'm not saying it didn't. The blow clearly increased your sensitivity :wink:. Yes, there are still idiot people in the Republic who have a chip over old scores.

My point was that today's bogey cultures are tomorrow's theme pubs. In the meantime, we should stop demonising groups of people who want to be different because of some bad apples.

[Fragony]

ee now is the expression of the old "first our theme parks, then sharia law!!!" sentiment from the usual suspects.

You miss the point, as I said it's not about them hiring a theme park, but about the socalled social exclusion that is in reality voluntary isolation.

[Keba]

You miss the point, as I said it's not about them hiring a theme park, but about the socalled social exclusion that is in reality voluntary isolation.

Not so ... I see no problem with a group of people doing whatever their culture instructs them to do, as long as they obey the laws. So, perhaps they wish to have fun without some of the excesses of western capitalism ... and? Even I am put off by the stuff sometimes.

There's a muslim community in my home town ... they hold their rites, do what their culture demands of them, and every last one of them was born in my country. They are not causing the least of trouble, despite being some 10 meters from a school.

It is difficult to compare ... but would you not keep your little ways if you move to another culture? Like, say, eating pork ... trating women as equals (this is for example, not debate), or such?

[English assassin]

My point was that today's bogey cultures are tomorrow's theme pubs.

I might be wrong here, but wouldn't something rather important be missing from a Sharia pub? Pork scratchings, I mean.

Although PAST bogey cultures are todays theme pubs, there is no particular reason to suppose that will happen again. It might or it might not. Past performance is no guarantee etc etc.

And even if it does, that is not to deny the pains of the process. There's not too much huguenot-english violence down in Kent any more, but that would be little consolation to anyone beaten up at the time.

And look: they were benefit scrounging asylum seekers ! I see the government was cutting off their benefits as well. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.


23-25 June 1709 Whereas it has been observ’d, and great offence taken at several of the poor Palatines begging about streets; notwithstanding the care that has been taken by the Government, and a great many private charities, to feed and lodge the said Palatines, to the end that they might not become burdensome to the country: These are to give notice, and earnestly to recommend to all Constables and Headboroughs, and other Parish-Officers, to stop and apprehend all such idle Palatines as they find begging from door to door, and to carry them before the next magistrate, to be dealt with according to law; or to take their names, and give notice thereof to the Reverend Mr. Tribbeko, at the Golden-Angel near Somerset-House, or Mr. Ruperti, Minister of the Lutheran Congregation, in the Savoy; to the end that their allowance from the Government may be stop’d.

[Fragony]

Not so ... I see no problem with a group of people doing whatever their culture instructs them to do, as long as they obey the laws. So, perhaps they wish to have fun without some of the excesses of western capitalism ... and? Even I am put off by the stuff sometimes.

Muslims are allowed to hold on to their culture if that is what they want, I have little problem with that. But, muslims happen to cause a lot of trouble, and the utopian crowd likes to shove that on these strange phenomenoms called social exclusion/language barriers/solar flares that supposedly makes it very hard for them not to rob grannies. I am sick of getting the blame for a deliberate refusal to fit in, and all the taxpayers money that is pumped into trying to emancipate this crowd. It's not our fault, we tried, so the muslims really need to [...] and stop demanding and start deserving.

[Big_John]

2) While it was a good idea to put this panzer-person on ignore, people keep quoting him.haha, it sucks doesn't it? that's got to be a vB setting the admins can fix..

edit: though, when people are calling for real-life genocide (barely disguised as it may be) on a public game forum.. vB settings may not be the first action that comes to an admin's attention.

[Silver Rusher]

The saddest thing about this thread is that those who denounce muslims for not 'integrating' and 'getting involved in society', probably have not a single muslim friend amongst them. You are so scared about these evil people, maybe you should actually get involved yourself and meet these people, who you continually decry for being so different and dangerous.
And where do you get that presumptuous load of BS from? Instead of throwing ignorant accusations at people, why don't we try debating this properly?

[Big_John]

And where do you get that presumptuous load of BS from? Instead of throwing ignorant accusations at people, why don't we try debating this properly?this thread is about people of a certain religion hiring a ******* amusement park for a day. an amusement park! seriously, what is to debate? rediculous.

this idea, as Kraz puts it, of "first our theme parks, then sharia law!!!" (and despite any effort to claim otherwise, that's all it is) doesn't deserve much more than a "presumptuous load of BS".

[rory_20_uk]

Jag, the muslim friends I have are all moderates. They fit in with society. If we go out, they don't drink and to be honest that's the most noticable difference (not great as I am a moderate drinker).

I know how you love decrying anyone stopping groups doing what they want (except the conservative and Imperail threads) but to state that all against this have no muslim friends merely shows that you're loosing your grip on reality.

Try to be a bit less of a self richeous bigot, eh? :2thumbsup:

~:smoking:

[PanzerJaeger]

Your quote above is about this --><-- far from proposing a "final solution" to the muslim problem, and certainly sounds hauntingly familiar in that context.

Your words, not mine. :shrug:

[LeftEyeNine]

Sorry but this will be a bit long OT:


Ask a Kurd in Turkey about racism.

He will not be able to say much since he will probably earning his money..somehow..

I do add : Why is it racism when it is a Turkish nationalism but not racism when it is a Kurdish nationalism ?

Roj TV openly provoked all the incident through the burial ceremonies of terrorist killed. Kurdish majors, their political party can openly suggest Abdullah Öcalan's release -who is accepted as a terrorist organization leader worldwide.

They can be the president, they can be the parliamenter, they can be famous, they can sing, they live, they earn, they mob, they beat, they attack, they rape, they make noise in the middle of the night, they disturb while I'm walking around with my girlfriend, they create hoods where even policemen can not enter, they sell drugs, they own most of the brothels, they exist in every dirty job in this country and they still talk about racism. Foreigners still talk about racism. They ask for more.

Whole western Turkey is not the place it was it was 10 years ago. And people still can find the courage to talk about what they see in websites. Because Kurds, Armenians, Greeks and whomever this country is claimed to have a problem with are all people like Smurfs living a happy community in the very deep of a peaceful forest, but Turks were all like the Burning Legion rushed and razed, right?

I'm happy to welcome any of you to take you to places where only Kurds live. I can not guarantee the survival but it will at least garnt you a lifetime experience and point of view.

P.S. A Swiss couple had decided to camp around Van -where is mostly Kurdish now. I'm damn sure that they were looking to prove out something about Kurds. Well 5 thugs tied the man to a tree and raped the woman. I think they now hate "Turks".

[Tribesman]

While it was a good idea to put this panzer-person on ignore, people keep quoting him.
That is because one "good" quote from Panzer can illustrate exactly what is wrong with some of the views being put forward .
Thanks Panzer :2thumbsup:

[A.Saturnus]

But, muslims happen to cause a lot of trouble...

People like you cause a lot of trouble as well, don't they?

As GoreBag said, things like this happen every single day. There are laws and there's culture. You have to accept laws, but you can live in whatever form of culture you like. If I go to a party where everyone wears black, Victorian cloths, latex, chrome and leather then that's not because I want social exclusion but because I like it that way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think this is actually a very important topic because it illustative.

We have two issues here:

1) This group of Muslims feel uncomfortable at themeparks and are put off by the "Unislamic" environment.

What I said before is that a large themepark which attracts people from all over the world should always make Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Jedi Christians welcome and they should provide for their culinary requirements the same as they provide a vegetarian option.

2) Conversly

The complaint of an "Unislamic" environment is frankly insulting, England is England, it isn't Islamic, its Germanic if anything and to be honest I like it that way, just as the Welsh like their land Celtic. The comment implies a lack of willingness to integrate.

If they believe their culture is superior then not wanting to change it is fine, I feel the same way about my culture. The fact is that England is my culture and if they don't want to partake of that culture than why do they want to live here? The NHS?

Thats the problem.

As to the previous bustups between cultures and religions, Tribesman, are the Christians still complaining about Sunday football? If the Jews want their own semetary for their own religion what is wrong with that? Religion has its place and it is very important to many people.

As to knowing any Muslims, I knew one, he was in my Law class, he seemed alright to me, I think he was uncomfortable surrounded by Anglo Saxons, to be honest, and I don't blame him. Aside from him there aren't many Muslims in my part of the country and those there are keep to themselves and since they don't go to pubs or our local "Pagan" festivals I don't have many oppertunities to meet them.

(Rough calculations indicate that Muslims make up 2.5% of our population, this makes the large Muslim communities in some cities all the more significant.)

[King Ragnar]

So hold on these muslims have problems about how the theme park is run and some of the food and rides? So wouldnt it be logical for them to pack up and go back home, because i mean its pritty sad trying to enforece their silly rules and believes on the people already living here who enjoy the park.

If they ( Muslims ) dont like the country they have immigrated to, then why the hell stay here and make a fuss, surely they should just go find somewhere else as far as possible from here and me.

[Papewaio]

They bulk booked the entire park, and then helped provide their own halal food.

Do you complain when a Hindu refuses to eat a hamburger?

[Aenlic]

Why is it racism when it is a Turkish nationalism but not racism when it is a Kurdish nationalism.

I didn't say it wasn't racism, LeftEyeNine. You should know better. I was making a point about racism not just being an all-white thing, as Eclectic seemed to suggest (although he corrected me on that misconception). If I must list all cases of racism to avoid leaving anyone out, when listing any at all, then we'd be here all night while I compile the list. Bad idea. :smile:

[Papewaio]

I was just thinking Halal food is a lot safer then Christians and cordial.

After all you never can really trust a Christian get together when they serve up cordial. :skull:

[Tribesman]

As to the previous bustups between cultures and religions, Tribesman, are the Christians still complaining about Sunday football?
It was Rugby football to be precise wigferth , and it was last year, and the beautiful irony is that while they were protesting on a Sunday about the match , another group of Christians was protesting about people protesting on a Sunday , but they waited till the Monday to protest about protesting on a Sunday as they take their Sabbath so seriously that they even shut their website on the Lords day .Which isn't the same Lords day as other people have as there is some strange phenomena which leads different people to call the seventh day a different day .
Personally I think they should all move it to a Monday , everyone could do with a rest on a Monday ~;)

This group of Muslims feel uncomfortable at themeparks and are put off by the "Unislamic" environment.
I wonder if the Amish went to a carpentry exhibition and were put off by the presence of power tools , would it be acceptable for them to book out a venue and hold a Amish carpentry festival ?
Yes , you see because they aren't Muslims , so it doesn't matter if they live somewhere and keep their own views in isolation to what everyone else does .:2thumbsup:

[PanzerJaeger]

I wonder if the Amish went to a carpentry exhibition and were put off by the presence of power tools , would it be acceptable for them to book out a venue and hold a Amish carpentry festival ?
Yes , you see because they aren't Muslims , so it doesn't matter if they live somewhere and keep their own views in isolation to what everyone else does

The Amish also dont make a habbit of cutting people's heads off and blowing them up... food for thought, Tribesbibble. ~:)

[GoreBag]

The complaint of an "Unislamic" environment is frankly insulting, England is England, it isn't Islamic, its Germanic if anything and to be honest I like it that way, just as the Welsh like their land Celtic. The comment implies a lack of willingness to integrate.

That's carp. Does it make sense if a woman is put off by the 'scene' in a backwater pub, let's say, full of smoke and sweaty, buzzed-to-drunk men leering over her? How about an underclass man in a posh restaurant? Even if they're all English, or even just Germanic?

Just for the record, I'm a North American, and I'm put off by neon-lighted, gay, disco bars. Insulting? Culture changes with the person - it's not like every Muslim in the area came forward to participate. Maybe some of them are put off by theme parks in general. Is that anti-Western sentiment?

How can it be insulting? You wouldn't have cared if Frag here hadn't posted the article. It would have gone entirely unnoticed.

As I see it, there are two ways to work around this issue. 1) Figure out that it doesn't affect you, and leave each mang to his own, or 2) Choose to be outraged and have fists about it.

[Tribesman]

food for thought, Tribesbibble
hmmmmm....Panzer ----thought ....nope them two words don't fit together .

[Incongruous]

The deluded cry of the right wing.
I hate Muslims
and
Why are you anti-christian
and
why do you want to destroy our native culture.

Isnt that it?

[rory_20_uk]

I'm right wing.

I'm agnostic and am equally indifferent to Muslims and Christians.

I live in a land where Curry is one of the national dishes.

I feel that throughout history my land has been blended with others as can be seen from our rich language to our now edible cuisine.

I'm not keen when others come here and instead of ignoring what they do not like try to remove from their lives all things that they do not like.

~:smoking:

[English assassin]

I think we are allowed to be a little worried when 13% of our muslim fellow countrymen think that the 7/7 bombers were "martyrs", no? That's 13% of 1.6 million, a whopping 208,000 people. Can we, yunno, at least talk about this? Or is that too illiberal.

Lets try this thought experiment: 13% of white britons believe anyone who shoots unarmed muslim citizens dead is a hero. Cue outrage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254764,00.html

And yes, I can read the figures showing that a fair proportion of muslims have a heathier attitude. That, and the idea of muslim theme pubs in 200 years time, will be a great comfort to me when my children are gassed on the tube by one of the "few bad apples".

[rory_20_uk]

So many are prepared to say that they are against extremism... yet this mass of people are rather quiet when the bombs go off, or masses of fertiliser is bought and stored in a garage for a few months.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's carp. Does it make sense if a woman is put off by the 'scene' in a backwater pub, let's say, full of smoke and sweaty, buzzed-to-drunk men leering over her? How about an underclass man in a posh restaurant? Even if they're all English, or even just Germanic?

Just for the record, I'm a North American, and I'm put off by neon-lighted, gay, disco bars. Insulting? Culture changes with the person - it's not like every Muslim in the area came forward to participate. Maybe some of them are put off by theme parks in general. Is that anti-Western sentiment?

How can it be insulting? You wouldn't have cared if Frag here hadn't posted the article. It would have gone entirely unnoticed.

As I see it, there are two ways to work around this issue. 1) Figure out that it doesn't affect you, and leave each mang to his own, or 2) Choose to be outraged and have fists about it.

Yes, our culture is varied and not every part is to everyone's taste. Consider this though, the woman can always go to a different pub and frankly I think you over estimate our modern class division but the working class man can go to a greasy spoon. The difference is that this themepark thing is symtomatic of the Muslim attitude to Britain in general and their lack of willingness to integrate.

The Amish? They're coplete pacifists. What if they said they wanted to come to New York, but only if they wound back the clock 300 years. Or they wanted to go to hospital but only if everything was done in an 18th Century manner.

Would that be right?


It was Rugby football to be precise wigferth , and it was last year, and the beautiful irony is that while they were protesting on a Sunday about the match , another group of Christians was protesting about people protesting on a Sunday , but they waited till the Monday to protest about protesting on a Sunday as they take their Sabbath so seriously that they even shut their website on the Lords day .Which isn't the same Lords day as other people have as there is some strange phenomena which leads different people to call the seventh day a different day .
Personally I think they should all move it to a Monday , everyone could do with a rest on a Monday

I stand corrected, did anyone listen to them then? Why do the general British population dislike the Muslims, because they kick up a fuss and they are the only ones listened to.


The deluded cry of the right wing.
I hate Muslims
and
Why are you anti-christian
and
why do you want to destroy our native culture.

Isnt that it?

1. I dislike certain aspects of certain Muslim sects, the religion itself seems fine to me, its the way it has been interpreted. Having met very few Muslims I have no reason to hate them, this also assumes they are a honogenous group. My problem hear is with the group that want to block-book Alton Towers and why.

2. I never said anyone was anti-Christian but in the same way that if Christians did this there would be less vocal outcry (I'd still be uncomfortable about the idea) if Christians complain about anything they are ignored.

3. They do want to destroy our native culture, they want us to all turn Muslim and have a Muslim monarch and Prime Minister. If you knew anything about Islam you would know that already. Yes thats what every religion wants, which is why we currently have a Christian monarch.

The problem I have is a lack of willingness to intregrate with the predominate culture, worse they feel the need to try and change the things they don't like.

If they want an Islamic environment they should live in an Islamic country, if they came to this country because they thought it was better they should stop trying to change it.

If I'm such a right wing Nazi why don't I have a problem with Jews, Sikhs or Hindus?

[InsaneApache]

I think we are allowed to be a little worried when 13% of our muslim fellow countrymen think that the 7/7 bombers were "martyrs", no? That's 13% of 1.6 million, a whopping 208,000 people. Can we, yunno, at least talk about this? Or is that too illiberal.

Lets try this thought experiment: 13% of white britons believe anyone who shoots unarmed muslim citizens dead is a hero. Cue outrage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254764,00.html

And yes, I can read the figures showing that a fair proportion of muslims have a heathier attitude. That, and the idea of muslim theme pubs in 200 years time, will be a great comfort to me when my children are gassed on the tube by one of the "few bad apples".

I was going to post that. I know dozens of Moslems, many of them very well. I would say this survey accurately mirrors the attitudes of a lot of them.

Mahmood, a guy I used to work with and a close friend is sceptical of these so called Islamicists. As he says, " You see these idiots at prayers on a Friday in the Mosque, spouting on about the unbelievers and infidels and how the UK should be subject to Sharia Law as it's the way forward. Then you see the same guys in the city centre on Saturday night, holding a half empty bottle of Grolsch, trying to pull the (white) girls in the clubs and bars".

He thinks they are world class morons.

Another thing. The latest generation of Moslems are very, very aggressive to the white locals. I've lost count of the number of times I've been threatened by these people, merely for taking my dog for a walk in the local park.

Assimilation? Yes, as long as we (unbelievers/heretics/infidels) assimilate with them. :wall:

Before anyone gets on their high horse about racism, this is nothing to do with race. More to do with a culture clash and religionism.

[Husar]

I'm put off by neon-lighted, gay, disco bars.
Your former name was NeonGod...~:confused: :inquisitive:

[solypsist]

anytime white christians are told they can't be part of something, they b*tch and moan. it's amazing. i have yet to see any complaint threads like OMG they're soo isolationist!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_club)* or OMG these Christians are teaching fundamentalist stuff in teh college!! why?!?!?! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Christian_University)

the history of western white christians excluding others (to this day) is nothing new. you already have your own exclusive places; use them. don't start trying crying when others are only following your lead. disband all your exclusive places first, then you might have cause to complain.


*there are still many, many private clubs that don't let black or jewish people (or non-rich people, for that matter) join. where's the disgust?

[Spetulhu]

Yes, our culture is varied and not every part is to everyone's taste. Consider this though, the woman can always go to a different pub and frankly I think you over estimate our modern class division but the working class man can go to a greasy spoon. The difference is that this themepark thing is symtomatic of the Muslim attitude to Britain in general and their lack of willingness to integrate.

I could understand complaints if the muslim group was demonstrating outside the park, demanding an end to the horrible un-islamic things that go on there. Add some threats of violence and you get a case for the police.

But what part of paying good money for hiring the park is "not-integrating"? Forbidding alcohol sales and elevator music? Halal food and women-only areas? They pay for it, they get to set the rules for the day. Seems like basic capitalism to me. :2thumbsup:

[King Ragnar]

I wonder would i get banned from the forums if i said that i hate muslims and dont want any in Britian?

[solypsist]

you would. is this what you are saying? i will take No Response to this reply as a "Yes," and will proceed shortly.


I wonder would i get banned from the forums if i said that i hate muslims and dont want any in Britian?

[Quid]

you would. is this what you are saying?

Why? I mean, I am the last to instigate any hatred or a crusade against anyone but shouldn't he have the 'right' to say it? It certainly is ignorant and unrealistic but not have the right to say it?...

Quid

[King Ragnar]

Just seeing what the boundries are, i wont go into my proper opinion on it as that would probably lead to me being banned, carry on...

[solypsist]

I'm loking for a "Yes," or "No," answer to my question above.



Just seeing what the boundries are, i wont go into my proper opinion on it as that would probably lead to me being banned, carry on...

[King Ragnar]

Well i will say no as i dont want to be banned...

[solypsist]

you can say it, you just can't say it on here.

keep in mind this is an international gaming board and the idea here is to welcome Total War players from all different backgrounds and nationalities. anyone who publicly states that he/she categorically hates any particular representative group is not the kind of person we want in here. users who intentionally bring their political and personal biases in here with the intent to discourage or insult other users by association will be warned and eventually banned if they continue. this applies across the board, and has been enforced across all spectrums. common sense applies, so looking for loopholes or extreme polarities will only end in crying.


Why? I mean, I am the last to instigate any hatred or a crusade against anyone but shouldn't he have the 'right' to say it? It certainly is ignorant and unrealistic but not have the right to say it?...

Quid

[King Ragnar]

Well theres's Democracy folks, i will say no more tho and abide by your rules:bow:

[Big_John]

you would. is this what you are saying? i will take No Response to this reply as a "Yes," and will proceed shortly.what? are you telling me that of all the outlandish shit that is said in the backroom, including, in this very thread, panzer insinuating (to put it mildly) muslims are subhumans that should be driven out (to put it mildly) of europe, that ragnar can't say he hates muslims or christians or jews or blacks or whatever?

shit man, he's not even calling for genocide.. what's the big deal?

[English assassin]

i have yet to see any complaint threads like OMG they're soo isolationist!!!* or OMG these Christians are teaching fundamentalist stuff in teh college!! why?!?!?!

O Rly? you must have missed threads like my "America's Taliban" thread then, Which redleg loved so much, and which could more or less be boiled down to "OMG these Christians are teaching fundamentalist stuff in teh college!!"

Sorry, Soly, but you are off target on that one.

[Quid]

Ok, I will have to accept your reasoning, of course. On the other hand, there have been much more disgusting comments made on these boards just recently. I am, of course, unaware of any bans or warnings but would it not stand to reason that someone making such comments even on these boards is honest and 'straight out' with their opinions as opposed to others who disguise their feelings towards groups of people or individuals?

Quid

Ps: I will start putting my quotes in the end of what I have to say also. Sort of looks better.


you can say it, you just can't say it on here.

keep in mind this is an international gaming board and the idea here is to welcome Total War players from all different backgrounds and nationalities. anyone who publicly states that he/she categorically hates any particular representative group is not the kind of person we want in here. users who intentionally bring their political and personal biases in here with the intent to discourage or insult other users by association will be warned and eventually banned if they continue. this applies across the board, and has been enforced across all spectrums. common sense applies, so looking for loopholes or extreme polarities will only end in crying.

[King Ragnar]

Well it just shows that these forums allow no form of right win political ideas ive seen it time and time again when anyone who expresses their right wing believes that the mods and other members raise all hell about it just because it does not agreee with their opinions.

But we are very far off topic now..

[Big_John]

Well it just shows that these forums allow no form of right win political ideas ive seen it time and time again when anyone who expresses their right wing believes that the mods and other members raise all hell about it just because it does not agreee with their opinions.

But we are very far off topic now..:inquisitive: so, you've missed all the ridiculous posts made by rabbit, dave, fragony, et al from time immemorial? come on, don't get all hyperbolic because a mod jumps on you for your intolerance. many "right wingers" around here wouldn't claim your (unofficial) POV on muslims as "right wing" anyway.

[King Ragnar]

Well there iit is again, you call them 'ridiculous' just because it does not agree with your opinion, and no i probably havent seen some of their posts as im not on here everyday , because i know if i posted my opinions on some of the threads i would be banned because its using my right of 'freedom of speech', because thats not allowed anymore unless its politically correct, which is a joke.

[Reenk Roink]

If I recall correctly, a statement of "Americans are retards" was the impetus of a perma-ban...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well there iit is again, you call them 'ridiculous' just because it does not agree with your opinion, and no i probably havent seen some of their posts as im not on here everyday , because i know if i posted my opinions on some of the threads i would be banned because its using my right of 'freedom of speech', because thats not allowed anymore unless its politically correct, which is a joke.

First, this is a private board so 'freedom of speech' doesn't apply. Second, you're British, so you don't have a constitution that guarantees you any such rights even if they did apply.

:bounce:

[Big_John]

Well there iit is again, you call them 'ridiculous' just because it does not agree with your opinion, and no i probably havent seen some of their posts as im not on here everyday , because i know if i posted my opinions on some of the threads i would be banned because its using my right of 'freedom of speech', because thats not allowed anymore unless its politically correct, which is a joke.i call them rediculous because that's how i feel about them. however, my opinion isn't law here. the conservatives on this board can and do call "liberal" posts rediculous all the time. so what? this is not against the rules of posting (in the backroom at least, afaik).

there is no "freedom of speech" here. haven't you read the forum posting rules? as has been explained again and again, this is not some sort of democracy where everyone can say what they want. if you step out of bounds, you get penalized. my problem is that you were threatened with a ban for asking a question (though, to be fair, it was a round-about way of getting your intolerance out there). now i can understand a warning.. but a ban? when worse has already been said by non-banned members in this same thread? i'm just curious about the double-standard i perceive. maybe i just don't know the rules that well either.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Just in case we are all getting too emotional about the Mass of Muslims, this might help to balance some views:

British soldier killed in Afganistan. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5144526.stm)

[King Ragnar]

Another dead and for what ? Nothing, just helping others instead of helping our selves
*shakes head in disgust*

[Dutch_guy]

Another dead and for what ? Nothing, just helping others instead of helping our selves
*shakes head in disgust*

What would you have the British do, leave Afghanistan for what it is ?

:balloon2:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Another dead and for what ? Nothing, just helping others instead of helping our selves
*shakes head in disgust*

Did you read the article? How does it reconcile with your earlier statement?


I wonder would i get banned from the forums if i said that i hate muslims and dont want any in Britian?

[King Ragnar]

Well i didnt read it because when it said 'British' i assumed it was a British Person not a muslim, he isnt British to me although i suppose it it a loss as he was fighting for Britian..

And to Dutch Guy i would have us leave immediatley as i dont care what they do in that country as long as it doesnt involve us.

[Husar]

Well there iit is again, you call them 'ridiculous' just because it does not agree with your opinion, and no i probably havent seen some of their posts as im not on here everyday , because i know if i posted my opinions on some of the threads i would be banned because its using my right of 'freedom of speech', because thats not allowed anymore unless its politically correct, which is a joke.
Oh, the poor right-winger who wants to physically oppress others and then whines about his freedom-of-speech being oppressed, how moving...:dizzy2:

As soly already said this is a private board and the owner can make rules as he pleases, similar to how the muslims can make the rules on their private event, if you don´t like the rules, noone forces you to go there.

[Big_John]

Well i didnt read it because when it said 'British' i assumed it was a British Person not a muslim, he isnt British to me although i suppose it it a loss as he was fighting for Britian..wow.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well i didnt read it because when it said 'British' i assumed it was a British Person not a muslim, he isnt British to me although i suppose it it a loss as he was fighting for Britian..

That's OK. I realise that irrational prejudice is hard like sums, especially with that nasty reality thing.

[orangat]

I think we are allowed to be a little worried when 13% of our muslim fellow countrymen think that the 7/7 bombers were "martyrs", no? That's 13% of 1.6 million, a whopping 208,000 people. Can we, yunno, at least talk about this? Or is that too illiberal.

Lets try this thought experiment: 13% of white britons believe anyone who shoots unarmed muslim citizens dead is a hero. Cue outrage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254764,00.html

And yes, I can read the figures showing that a fair proportion of muslims have a heathier attitude. That, and the idea of muslim theme pubs in 200 years time, will be a great comfort to me when my children are gassed on the tube by one of the "few bad apples".

Thats pretty damning numbers there.

[solypsist]

take it easy and calm down, guys.

[GoreBag]

Yes, our culture is varied and not every part is to everyone's taste. Consider this though, the woman can always go to a different pub and frankly I think you over estimate our modern class division but the working class man can go to a greasy spoon.

Yes, I know, the woman can always go to a different pub. Can the Muslims go to an Islamic theme park?


The difference is that this themepark thing is symtomatic of the Muslim attitude to Britain in general and their lack of willingness to integrate.

All power to them. Assimilation is for wimps.

[Fragony]

People like you cause a lot of trouble as well, don't they?

As GoreBag said, things like this happen every single day. There are laws and there's culture. You have to accept laws, but you can live in whatever form of culture you like. If I go to a party where everyone wears black, Victorian cloths, latex, chrome and leather then that's not because I want social exclusion but because I like it that way.

Maybe I am just having a hard time understanding the punchline, but I don't really understand what you mean by 'People like you cause a lot of trouble as well, don't they', maybe I forgot the secret handshake, or perhaps my leather and chrome, but what do you mean by this? 'People like me'? I am just dying to be just as enlightened as you so please make a bigot rot....

[A.Saturnus]

Maybe I am just having a hard time understanding the punchline, but I don't really understand what you mean by 'People like you cause a lot of trouble as well, don't they', maybe I forgot the secret handshake, or perhaps my leather and chrome, but what do you mean by this? 'People like me'? I am just dying to be just as enlightened as you so please make a bigot rot....

Ohh, I meant nothing. Really nothing, just forget about it.


http://img.stern.de/_content/52/38/523811/Npd250_250.jpg

~:eek: uups, where did that come from? No idea how that picture slipped into my post.

http://sport.ard.de/wm2006/wm/vorort/hr/news05/img/nazi_dpa180.jpg

OMG, something's wrong with my browser!

http://www.lesoir.be/mediastore/_2006/juin/du_11_au_20/_16_Themsche_News.jpg



No, seriously, I don't mean to say that you're one of "those people" - a violent right extremist (of which we have around 30,000 in Germany). I just made a sweeping generalisation. When you say that "the Muslims" cause a lot of trouble, you make a negative inclusive statement about a lot of people, many of which are quite peaceful. The same type of dangerous generalisation includes you with the people shown above. Not quite fair, is it?

[InsaneApache]

I decided not to reply to this post, then I relented.

An open letter to A. Saturnus.

@A. Saturnus.

That is as close to a personal assassination/attack that I have ever witnessed from a respected and valued member of the .Org, not to mention a senior member of staff.

Whatever Fragonys faults, he is prepared to speak up for himself and his 'take on life'. Wether you agree or not, he has (by and large) adhered to the rules of the forum.

No amount of wrongs make a right. No matter how disguised.

I remain, Sir, your obedient servant,

InsaneApache

[A.Saturnus]

Whatever Fragonys faults, he is prepared to speak up for himself and his 'take on life'. Wether you agree or not, he has (by and large) adhered to the rules of the forum.

Of course he did. But if there's guilt by association, it can happen to him too.
Didn't I make clear enough that I don't think that Fragony deserves to be put in a line with such people? The wrongness of that is my whole point! The same dangerous generalisation that makes out of all Moslims fundamentalists can make fascist murderers out of all right-wingers.
My post was a counter-example, not a personal attack.

[InsaneApache]

Semantics my dear Sir, Semantics.

There is a concept of the 'spirit' of the law, I suggest, Sir, that you broke that spirit with your post.

[A.Saturnus]

So you're saying the difference between a counter-example and a personal attack is purely sematical. Now I have to beg to differ. Let me make this entirely clear:
I am not saying Fragony is a fascist. I vehemently oppose that notion.
So what precisely is the content of the supposed personal attack?

[Big_John]

Apache, this answers your concerns about Saturnus' post (from the very same post).
No, seriously, I don't mean to say that you're one of "those people" - a violent right extremist (of which we have around 30,000 in Germany). I just made a sweeping generalisation.

this is fairly tame and common backroom posting. a simple counter-example that turns the spot light around 180 degrees. what's the deal?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, I know, the woman can always go to a different pub. Can the Muslims go to an Islamic theme park?

All power to them. Assimilation is for wimps.

Yeah, assimilation is for wimps but moving to a country and then deciding you don't like the culture and trying to make it like back home, which you left, is for hypocrits.

Thats the crux of the problem. You live here you live with us and if there's any changing to be done its at your end.

If someone wants to come round my house, knowing I slaughter sheep, complains when I serve him the lamb I killed last week I'll show him the door. If he's a vegetarian and I know this I'll cook him something appropriate but I'm still going to eat meat.

A lot of Muslims come to England and complain about it being English. If I really didn't like French people I wouldn't go to Paris on holiday.

Thats how I feel.

[GoreBag]

Yeah, assimilation is for wimps but moving to a country and then deciding you don't like the culture and trying to make it like back home, which you left, is for hypocrits.

It's for everyone. You'll notice that places like the Congo and Vietnam still maintain a strong French language presence, and the entirety of the Americas is no longer native American. Some Europeans show up, make things more properly European, blah blah blah.

And it's hardly like people left Pakistan or Iraq because they didn't like the culture. More like they didn't like the socioeconomic issues in those areas and decided not to have a miserable life. So what if they come to England? Do they need to be English, even though they're not and will never be? No. This is the individual saying "Sucks to your ass-mar. I'm making my corner of the globe my own."

And..are you saying that you're okay with it if a man who is a vegetarian doesn't want a piece of your dead animal, but you're not if it's a Muslim who declines?

[Papewaio]

Painting with a broad brush is useful. However it can and does lead to misinterpretations of a message.


Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Guild, is discouraged. The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.

It is a good rule of thumb to replace any groups in a message with ones that you associate with and see if the post then looks offensive. If you fail to do so others might and in turn you may feel poorly.

Don't inflame the situation. Revisit your orginal post and see if it can be misinterpreted. If it wasn't what you meant edit it to something that isn't inflaming.

Play nicely and if you do have an issue, PM the mods. Sometimes we will proactively act on an issue, however a lot of the time we do not either see the post, fail to realise the objectionable context or decide to let it ride as it is not quite explicit enough, or for many other reasons.

Where possible treat things with a bit of tongue in cheek humour.

[English assassin]

I don't especially want to draw further attention to a very unfortunate post on an earlier page, but as I slightly regret having played any part in this thread, can we just put it on record that a British serviceman killed in the line of duty wearing his British battledress deserves our respect and his family our sympathy. The idea that someone like that is "not british" because of his religion is absolutely as bad as a muslim thinking the 7/7 bombings were justified.

If you have no idea what I am talking about then lucky you and I recommend you do NOT waste time reading back into the thread to find out.

Thank you for your time.

[Ser Clegane]

can we just put it on record that a British serviceman killed in the line of duty wearing his British battledress deserves our respect and his family our sympathy. The idea that someone like that is "not british" because of his religion is absolutely as bad as a muslim thinking the 7/7 bombings were justified.


Absolutely correct.

:bow:

[King Ragnar]

I don't especially want to draw further attention to a very unfortunate post on an earlier page, but as I slightly regret having played any part in this thread, can we just put it on record that a British serviceman killed in the line of duty wearing his British battledress deserves our respect and his family our sympathy. The idea that someone like that is "not british" because of his religion is absolutely as bad as a muslim thinking the 7/7 bombings were justified.

If you have no idea what I am talking about then lucky you and I recommend you do NOT waste time reading back into the thread to find out.

Thank you for your time.


Well im afraid my opinions just disagree with yours,w e could argue for days but whats the use, each to their own...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Yeah, assimilation is for wimps but moving to a country and then deciding you don't like the culture and trying to make it like back home, which you left, is for hypocrits.


Have you visited the south coast of Spain or the Balearics recently? :inquisitive:

Ex-pats are notorious for nostalgia of the 'old country'. It's nothing new, and nothing to be frightened of.

[English assassin]

Well im afraid my opinions just disagree with yours,w e could argue for days but whats the use, each to their own...


Yeah, well I'd expect a muslim to challenge a fellow muslim who supported sharia law or separatism, so I'm returning the favour by telling you you are completely out of line. Once you've signed up in the army and caught a bullet for the country yourself then you can slag off Lance Corporal Hashmi, until then I'd keep your views to yourself. Its people like him that keep people like you safe in their beds.

[King Ragnar]

Yeah, well I'd expect a muslim to challenge a fellow muslim who supported sharia law or separatism, so I'm returning the favour by telling you you are completely out of line. Once you've signed up in the army and caught a bullet for the country yourself then you can slag off Lance Corporal Hashmi, until then I'd keep your views to yourself. Its people like him that keep people like you safe in their beds.

I would love to die for the country infact i would happily sign up today, but id rather continue studying what i love ( history), i even wish national service was still around because i would be very happy to go and do it, and he hardly has hardly kept me safe in bed because he is fighting a war that is on the other side of the world and that i dont care about who is being hurt in some middle eastern country as long as its not our brave boys.

I may have been a bit harsh on what i said but its what i believe since the bombings of 2001 and then the 7/7 bombings have just fueled my disgust, such things as beaheadings of charity workers have also fueled my rage.

Any man who joins the army deserves all the respect int he world but i still do not see this man as a 'British' soldier.

[caravel]

Any man who joins the army deserves all the respect int he world but i still do not see this man as a 'British' soldier.

The fact remains that he was a British soldier in the British Army and died in the line of duty.

[King Ragnar]

And that still doesnt change my opinion, its just like the sons or daughters of immigrants are called British Asian or British Muslims or whatever, idont see them as 'British'.

[doc_bean]

I agree, anyone who doesn't have purely celtish ancestroy shouldn't threat the country like they own it. They're just living there for a while and should return to their country of origin...


:oops:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Any man who joins the army deserves all the respect int he world but i still do not see this man as a 'British' soldier.

Your first paragraph indicates a fantasy view of what the services are.

However, the sentence quoted above bears examination.

I'm Irish. Nonetheless, because of traditional arrangements between your country and mine, I served as a Captain of Royal Artillery in the 1980's. Some of my countrymen at that time were trying to bomb their ways to achieving their political aims. As a Catholic Irishman, I spent some small time dodging their bullets and bombs and hatred in Ulster alongside my British colleagues.

I wonder if I count as being worthy of your praise or dismissal? (Not that either actually matters to anyone, I'm just trying to see if there is any thought process behind your rhetoric).

:inquisitive:

Oh, by the way, the country I think you are referring to in your Location tag is spelt 'Britain' not 'Britian'. Though given your views, perhaps you do live in a parallel but disturbingly familiar place.

[King Ragnar]

I cant even be botherd to argue this anymore my opinion is that this man in my view was not British, end of so what if you see different, we would just constantly argue, accept that my opinion differs from yours.

And thank you for noting the spelling mistake, its corrected now.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I cant even be botherd to argue this anymore my opinion is that this man in my view was not British, end of so what if you see different, we would just constantly argue, accept that my opinion differs from yours.

~:wave:

[caravel]

And that still doesnt change my opinion, its just like the sons or daughters of immigrants are called British Asian or British Muslims or whatever, idont see them as 'British'.

This kind of attitude is why many British Muslims simply cannot "integrate". One one hand they're told they're not considered British even if they join the armed forces, while on the other they're told to "integrate" and conform to British cultural ideals. This is only the typical contradictory anti-immigration rhetoric.

[King Ragnar]

I wouldnt want them to intergrate i want them to leave the country, its come to the point now that im happy that i dont live any further south than i do and thank lord i dont live in a large city, because its just immigrant after immigrant.

The majority dont want to intergrate anyway, take for instance why this thread was started and why 13% say the 7/7 bombings were justified, how can they get away with saying such things,any of them who say that should be deported immediatley.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wouldnt want them to intergrate i want them to leave the country, its come to the point now that im happy that i dont live any further south than i do and thank lord i dont live in a large city, because its just immigrant after immigrant.

The majority dont want to intergrate anyway, take for instance why this thread was started and why 13% say the 7/7 bombings were justified, how can they get away with saying such things,any of them who say that should be deported immediatley.

I thought you'd gone away?

[King Ragnar]

I thought you'd gone away?

*hugs Ghost* ahhhhh you silly paddy~D, i just rested my case on the muslim soldier not the whole thread on muslims intergrating :2thumbsup:

[Banquo's Ghost]

*hugs Ghost* ahhhhh you silly paddy~D, i just rested my case on the muslim soldier not the whole thread on muslims intergrating :2thumbsup:

Oh good. You have filled the gaping hole in my life left by the silence of the creationists. :knuddel:

Sadly, I have to do some work now, so I shall be back later to taunt you a second time...

:bounce:

[Papewaio]

The majority dont want to intergrate anyway, take for instance why this thread was started and why 13% say the 7/7 bombings were justified, how can they get away with saying such things,any of them who say that should be deported immediatley.

Well you have already had the spelling checked.

Since when is 13% of a poll a majority?

[King Ragnar]

Oh good. You have filled the gaping hole in my life left by the silence of the creationists. :knuddel:

Sadly, I have to do some work now, so I shall be back later to taunt you a second time...

:bounce:
~:wave:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ragnar, you're so lucky we're not in a pub. I find your sentiments disgusting and I hope you don't join to DDLI.

Banquo, you were a Gun-Pig?

Back on topic: I don't like the British ex-pats in Spain really and I'm not a great fan of particular brand of British culture they bring with them, binge drinking and eating fish and chips.

Not that I don't like fish and chips but I'd rather battered food wasn't a cornerstone of our culture.

To clarify, I not saying "get rid of your culture" I'm saying be part of the culture around you, leave your little enclave and talk to the locals. In this British ex-pats are just as guilty as any issolationist Muslim in London.


And it's hardly like people left Pakistan or Iraq because they didn't like the culture. More like they didn't like the socioeconomic issues in those areas and decided not to have a miserable life. So what if they come to England? Do they need to be English, even though they're not and will never be? No. This is the individual saying "Sucks to your ass-mar. I'm making my corner of the globe my own."

"Sucks to your ass-mar. I'm making my corner of the globe my own."

The Europeans did this last century, they are now widely condemmed for the damage they caused to the local culture and society, witness Africa.

Most of the Iraqis in Britain are opponents of the old regime, they left while the going was good and Saddam wasn't looking. Many of the Pakistanis left because its easier to get on in liberal Britain where we aren't constrained by religious laws or backwards traditions.

[caravel]

Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis are here in the UK because their countries were once part of British India, part of the British Empire, this is the same reason why Afro-Carribeans are here also, by invitation, and basically because we invaded their countries first.

[Louis VI the Fat]

ZIDANE, the greatest Frenchman of all time, is a son of Algerian immigrants.


:sweetheart:

[InsaneApache]

Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis are here in the UK because their countries were once part of British India, part of the British Empire, this is the same reason why Afro-Carribeans are here also, by invitation, and basically because we invaded their countries first.

:inquisitive:

[rory_20_uk]

Invaded is a bit strong, but we did pinch some them off the French and Spanish. E.g. Trinidad and Tobago.

~:smoking:

[caravel]

:inquisitive:

Jamaica for example was part of the British Empire, and Jamaicans came here in the 60's and 70's to work. They were invited here by the British Government, they didn't come here illegally.


Invaded is a bit strong, but we did pinch some them off the French and Spanish. E.g. Trinidad and Tobago.

~:smoking:

Jamaica was taken from the Spanish by force.

[InsaneApache]

Jamaica for example was part of the British Empire, and Jamaicans came here in the 60's and 70's to work. They were invited here by the British Government, they didn't come here illegally. Jamaica was taken from the Spanish by force.

And there was I thinking the British Empire came about because all those people gave us the land.
Of course it was taken by force. That's how empires are built.

Don't remember any Afro-Caribbean countries being taken by force. Mainly because at that time any Afro-caribbeans around would have been slaves and therefore not allowed to belong to a country, never mind administrate one.

[caravel]

And there was I thinking the British Empire came about because all those people gave us the land.

Not even good sarcasm... and why?


AOf course it was taken by force. That's how empires are built.

Ditto. Having a bad day, or is this your normal standard of pedantry? Sorry if I offended you BTW.


Don't remember any Afro-Caribbean countries being taken by force. Mainly because at that time any Afro-caribbeans around would have been slaves and therefore not allowed to belong to a country, never mind administrate one.

I made no such statement. I did say, in a somewhat less lengthy sentence, that Afro-Carribeans are now here in Britain because they were invited here due to their countries being part of the commonwealth, because their countries were amalgamated into the British Empire: taken by conquest.

1) Their countries = The countries in which they are now living, of which they are citizens.
2) Whether they were slaves at the time, brought to the west indies by the British is of no consequence to this issue.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And there was I thinking the British Empire came about because all those people gave us the land.
Of course it was taken by force. That's how empires are built.

Don't remember any Afro-Caribbean countries being taken by force. Mainly because at that time any Afro-caribbeans around would have been slaves and therefore not allowed to belong to a country, never mind administrate one.

Invaded is inacurrate in many cases, in India particually much was done through internal political manuvering. Often the British were invited in, or gained an ecenomic foothold and then took over. Rather like the Roman Empire before them and America after.

Regardless the current wave of immagrants are not here to help us rebuild in the post-war period, they are here of their own volution. The Commonwealth immigrants are generally fairly well integrated, not to say there weren't, and aren't, problems.

[A.Saturnus]

Don't remember any Afro-Caribbean countries being taken by force.

What's Afro-Caribbean anyway? I mean the Caribean is part of the American continent isn't it?

[Don Corleone]

Were you to say 'African-American' or AfroAmerican, you would be lumping those folks in the Caribean, which has had a different political/cultural/racial history with those who come from the USA. Afro-Caribean allows for you to refer to Jamaicans and Barbadoans as all one group, but not in the same group as Cornell West or Samuel L. Jackson, for example.

Personally, and this is aimed at all of us, not just African folks, the time is long overdue when we should all be answering 'American' and dropping the hyphen.

Okay, I don't have the time or the inclination to read through 5 pages of steam, can somebody condense the arguments a bit for me? This is probably going to knock some of you out of your tree, but personally, I don't see any problem with this... what's the difference between this and say the Knights of Columbus (Catholics) or the Holy Ghost Society (Portugese-Americans, also Catholic?) Free association includes the right to NOT include everyone in your group, should you so choose....

[Papewaio]

What's Afro-Caribbean anyway? I mean the Caribean is part of the American continent isn't it?

Someone who (well at least used to) plays cricket rather then baseball.

[Fragony]

Ohh, I meant nothing. Really nothing, just forget about it.


http://img.stern.de/_content/52/38/523811/Npd250_250.jpg

~:eek: uups, where did that come from? No idea how that picture slipped into my post.

http://sport.ard.de/wm2006/wm/vorort/hr/news05/img/nazi_dpa180.jpg

OMG, something's wrong with my browser!

http://www.lesoir.be/mediastore/_2006/juin/du_11_au_20/_16_Themsche_News.jpg



No, seriously, I don't mean to say that you're one of "those people" - a violent right extremist (of which we have around 30,000 in Germany). I just made a sweeping generalisation. When you say that "the Muslims" cause a lot of trouble, you make a negative inclusive statement about a lot of people, many of which are quite peaceful. The same type of dangerous generalisation includes you with the people shown above. Not quite fair, is it?

Well A.Saturnus, all I can say is fork you very much, all these non-lefties and their sweeping generalisations huh. This has to be the most insulting post directed at me ever.

fu&die.

[Fragony]

eh, was a bit too hasty, didn't read the disclaimers afterwards. Still not flattering at all, but I guess I can be insulting to muslim orgers as well.

For your informations, screw these baldies just as much, any extremism scares the crap out of me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Okay, I don't have the time or the inclination to read through 5 pages of steam, can somebody condense the arguments a bit for me? This is probably going to knock some of you out of your tree, but personally, I don't see any problem with this... what's the difference between this and say the Knights of Columbus (Catholics) or the Holy Ghost Society (Portugese-Americans, also Catholic?) Free association includes the right to NOT include everyone in your group, should you so choose....

Well one side of the arguement is what you said above, the other side is that some people feel that the themepark shouldn't change just to accomodate Muslims, and that this episode is symptomatic of a lack of willingness of a certain segment of the Muslim population to integrate with the wider British culture.

IMO both sides have valid arguements, I fall more into the second group because I feel that is you come here you should make an effort to integrate and blend in. That said I wouldn't expect them to totally give up their culture and certainly not their religion.

We have an old saying here "Don't talk about religion, politics or football." In Britain religion is a private affair reserved for the home and the church, many Muslim immigrants make it the central issue of who they are and how they view others.

That grates on the rest of us.

[Duke of Gloucester]

This episode is symptomatic of a lack of willingness of a certain segment of the Muslim population to integrate with the wider British culture.

Trouble with statements like this is that many of those who make them can't define the British culture that the Muslim population are meant to blend in with. Care to have a go an prove me wrong?


blend in

God preserve us from this idea. I don't want to live in a country where people are pressurized to blend in. I want to wear the clothes I want and listen to the music I like and participate in the culture that I enjoy. I don't want to be the same as everyone else. In fact isn't this idea profoundly un-British? Don't we value freedom and diversity?


We have an old saying here "Don't talk about religion, politics or football."

I have never heard the football part, but the reason religion is in the list is that in the not too distant past, we couln't stop fighting about religion and any discussion of it was bound to lead to quarrels and, maybe, violence and this fighting was between Christians. On reflection, these days maybe football belongs in the list.


In Britain religion is a private affair reserved for the home and the church, many Muslim immigrants make it the central issue of who they are and how they view others.

But do they? I live in Bradford so I meet Moslems every day. The only one who has ever spoken about their religion is my neighbours daughter and she only asked if the food I was cooking was halal.

Don is right. There is no problem with this at all. They pay their money and enjoy Alton Towers in the way they want. They express their freedom to associate with who they want when they want anywhere they can afford. Very British.

[rory_20_uk]

Trouble with statements like this is that many of those who make them can't define the British culture that the Muslim population are meant to blend in with. Care to have a go an prove me wrong?

The theme park is "British". It caters for lots of different people of different beliefs, ages and skin colours. The only thing required is money.

Some feel that to go there they have had to radically alter what is at the theme park.

In this instance they have to blend in with the usual running of the theme park. To purchase tickets and go to rides like any other British person woud do.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Exactly, this is the crux of the matter, it really doesn't seem to bother anyone else, just this segment of the Muslim population. When I say blend in I mean try not to rub others up the wrong way and just get along in Britain.


Trouble with statements like this is that many of those who make them can't define the British culture that the Muslim population are meant to blend in with. Care to have a go an prove me wrong?

I'll give it a shot.

Every year we have weak long celebration of May-day in my town, on the Thursday we crown a little girl May Queen and the children take part in May Pole and traditional country dancing. On the Friday we have the "Round the tree race" where runners run from the start in the town square to a tree stump, around and back. On the Saturday there is a carnival procession with an older "Carnival Queen" and on Sunday we have a church service.

In the spring there are Morris dancering competitions in the city of Exeter, the principal city in the county

On the 11th of November we have a procession down to the memorial including a military guard provided by the local Cadet Detachment.

We have celebrations at Easter and Christmas, admittedly these are quasi-religious but they are accomanied by secular events.

Once or twice a year the Cadet Detachment Beats the Retreat with the town marching band, which compeates with other marching bands in the region.

We have a harvest festival as well, at least when the multi-culturalists aren't telling us we shouldn't, we don't have many of them down here but they did make a fuss in one village and get it stopped that year.

We have local Cricket, Football and Rugby teams.

We have a Mayor and a Council of Aldermen.

In Yorkshire they still have lonsword dancing.

Is that enough culture for you?


[qutoe]I have never heard the football part, but the reason religion is in the list is that in the not too distant past, we couln't stop fighting about religion and any discussion of it was bound to lead to quarrels and, maybe, violence and this fighting was between Christians. On reflection, these days maybe football belongs in the list.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with religious war, its still in circulation in may places. It means if you meet a guy in a pub you should avoid talking about religion, football or politics because all three a private business and you don't need to discuss them with strangers anyway, not least because they can engender stroll feelings.

Its not about avoiding violence, its just about being polite.


But do they? I live in Bradford so I meet Moslems every day. The only one who has ever spoken about their religion is my neighbours daughter and she only asked if the food I was cooking was halal.

Don is right. There is no problem with this at all. They pay their money and enjoy Alton Towers in the way they want. They express their freedom to associate with who they want when they want anywhere they can afford. Very British.

I never said it was all Muslims by a long way, but you don't hear people when they don't complain. Your last statement sounds very American but not very English.

Have you not noticed that we put up with everything? Well, until we snap.

[Duke of Gloucester]

The theme park is "British". It caters for lots of different people of different beliefs, ages and skin colours. The only thing required is money.

There is nothing particularly "British" about a theme park and I am not quite sure how they "cater" for different beliefs. However, you are right about the money part, and if you have enough money you can book the whole park and then perhaps sell tickets to whoever you like.

I don't suppose the theme park will be changed at all.


In this instance they have to blend in with the usual running of the theme park. To purchase tickets and go to rides like any other British person woud do.


The normal running of the theme park includes the facility to book the whole park. This is what has been done. Why is this not "blending in"?


Every year we have weak long celebration of May-day in my town, on the Thursday we crown a little girl May Queen and the children take part in May Pole and traditional country dancing. On the Friday we have the "Round the tree race" where runners run from the start in the town square to a tree stump, around and back. On the Saturday there is a carnival procession with an older "Carnival Queen" and on Sunday we have a church service.

In the spring there are Morris dancering competitions in the city of Exeter, the principal city in the county

On the 11th of November we have a procession down to the memorial including a military guard provided by the local Cadet Detachment.

We have celebrations at Easter and Christmas, admittedly these are quasi-religious but they are accomanied by secular events.

Once or twice a year the Cadet Detachment Beats the Retreat with the town marching band, which compeates with other marching bands in the region.

We have a harvest festival as well, at least when the multi-culturalists aren't telling us we shouldn't, we don't have many of them down here but they did make a fuss in one village and get it stopped that year.

We have local Cricket, Football and Rugby teams.

We have a Mayor and a Council of Aldermen.

In Yorkshire they still have lonsword dancing.

At least you had a go and it's a good list but:

I have never seen a May pole and I hate country dancing. I think Morris dancing is silly, I find football boring and marching bands terrible. Am I British enough or should I blend in more? Lots of other nations celebrate Christmas and mark 11th November. See the problem?


Its not about avoiding violence, its just about being polite.


Check our history and find out when the convention about avoiding discussing religion in polite society started and you will realise it is all about avoiding conflict, violence and, as you say, engendering strong feelings.


Your last statement sounds very American but not very English.

A horrible thing to say, but now I read it in black and white you may be right. I must lie down and think of roast beef and warm beer.


Have you not noticed that we put up with everything? Well, until we snap.

This may be a better description of Britishness than your first effort, but lets not extradite everyone with a quick temper for being un-English.

[rory_20_uk]

But the theme park is in britain, and hence is part of modern britain.

It caters for everybody equally. That was the point. Everyone is treated the same.

By not just going up to it they are not blending in. They have brought rules that would not be out of place in the middle ages.

They are not buying it out as it's a business' yearly money waster. They've done so to ensure that the usual "British" rules can be ignored and nothing will be seen that offends their imported values.

~:smoking:

[InsaneApache]

Trouble with statements like this is that many of those who make them can't define the British culture that the Muslim population are meant to blend in with. Care to have a go an prove me wrong?



God preserve us from this idea. I don't want to live in a country where people are pressurized to blend in. I want to wear the clothes I want and listen to the music I like and participate in the culture that I enjoy. I don't want to be the same as everyone else. In fact isn't this idea profoundly un-British? Don't we value freedom and diversity?



I have never heard the football part, but the reason religion is in the list is that in the not too distant past, we couln't stop fighting about religion and any discussion of it was bound to lead to quarrels and, maybe, violence and this fighting was between Christians. On reflection, these days maybe football belongs in the list.



But do they? I live in Bradford so I meet Moslems every day. The only one who has ever spoken about their religion is my neighbours daughter and she only asked if the food I was cooking was halal.

Don is right. There is no problem with this at all. They pay their money and enjoy Alton Towers in the way they want. They express their freedom to associate with who they want when they want anywhere they can afford. Very British.


What's the name of that excellent curryhouse just past the lights at the top of Leeds Rd......ahh that's Ahkbars, try it out. :2thumbsup:

You will have to book a table though, especially at the weekend (count Thursday in that)...me? I go for the take-away.

Ohh BTW it's probably 'Halal' so be careful. :laugh4:

He's right you know. I live in the same city and I have to say the the Moslems that I know and speak to regard themselves as English. So sort that one out the people on this thread who think the guys should integrate.

Bradford has a lot of Moslems about 35-40% of the population are Moslem, good job I like curry. :laugh4:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There is nothing particularly "British" about a theme park and I am not quite sure how they "cater" for different beliefs. However, you are right about the money part, and if you have enough money you can book the whole park and then perhaps sell tickets to whoever you like.

I don't suppose the theme park will be changed at all.



The normal running of the theme park includes the facility to book the whole park. This is what has been done. Why is this not "blending in"?

Can I point out that I'm less bothered with booking the park than the reasons for it. Citing an un-Islamic environment as the reason for not going. If you read the post made on the Islamic forum you find it strikes an unsettling chord. That's what bothers me. Oh, and they are making changes to some of the park, check the first post
At least you had a go and it's a good list but:

I have never seen a May pole and I hate country dancing. I think Morris dancing is silly, I find football boring and marching bands terrible. Am I British enough or should I blend in more? Lots of other nations celebrate Christmas and mark 11th November. See the problem?

Thankyou, I am rural though, and Southern, so it isn't all universal but I think I can come up with something more universal:

Sunday Roast

Fish and Chips

Being for a good war, so long as we're home by the next bank holiday

Being tollerant and polite

Standing in ques

Sniping at the French

Everyone in the UK making fun of everyone else

Being good soldiers

Getting dressed up

Real Ale

Wisky

Stiff upper lip.


Check our history and find out when the convention about avoiding discussing religion in polite society started and you will realise it is all about avoiding conflict, violence and, as you say, engendering strong feelings.

I am quite aware of our history but its not an ancient pearl of wisdom and it applies today, in a pub, and not just between Jews and Catholics. As I said before the English came to the conclusion religion was private to stop arguements.


A horrible thing to say, but now I read it in black and white you may be right. I must lie down and think of roast beef and warm beer.

Don't worry mate, next time the Americans start and red neck rant we can have stiff upper lips together.


This may be a better description of Britishness than your first effort, but lets not extradite everyone with a quick temper for being un-English.

It does rather capture the essence, doesn't it, actually I think it's a very British trait, one which some minoreties and some Muslims in particular abuse. The thing is, we haven't snapped yet. The current generation is growing up ticked-off with multi-culturalism and tollerance. God forbid the BNP get someone intelligant in-charge.

It'll be worse than Holland will be in a few more years.

[Duke of Gloucester]

But the theme park is in britain, and hence is part of modern britain.

So is Ahkbars on the Leeds Road and my own favourite Mumtaz on Great Horton Road. Of course Mumtaz is run by Moslems so you can't buy alcohol and if you go there at dusk during Ramadan they give you iftar foods free before your meal. If the founders of Mumtaz were so keen on "blending in" it would be a fish and chip restraunt or greasy spoon cafe. Fortunately it isn't. Every church, mosque and temple in Britain is, by your definition, part of modern Britain but I would be happy to go with that idea.

What I don't understand is why a group of people booking a venue for a private function and then imposing their own rules is such a bad thing. Would the same objections be applied to naturists or star trek enthusiasts. The day was available to book. They booked it. Seems fine to me. Also what are these "British" rules that Alton Towers usually has? ~:confused:

[Tribesman]

Ragnar, you're so lucky we're not in a pub. I find your sentiments disgusting
Wigferth , are you in the "if you cannot introduce a fascist to a reasonable point of view , introduce his head to the floor " club ?:2thumbsup:

[King Ragnar]

Well what would he do in a pub? Where would this pub be located id be happy to come and have a drink sometime..

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ragnar, you're so lucky we're not in a pub. I find your sentiments disgusting
Wigferth , are you in the "if you cannot introduce a fascist to a reasonable point of view , introduce his head to the floor " club ?:2thumbsup:

I find you get better leverage if you introduce it to the wall.

While I dislike attempts to force change in British culture, I'll never be a multi-culturalist and I tend to view English culture as preferable simply because its mine I find pretty much everything in Ragnar's posts disgusting.

Anyone who comes to Britain and subscibes to the core values of British culture and particually joins the Army is definately British, if not English.

Here's my problem:


The entire park has been booked out for a muslim day on Sunday 17th September 2006 inshaAllah. There will be no music, alcohol or gambling machines. All childrens' areas will be limited to sisters only. There will be many stalls, plenty of halal food and designated prayer areas inshaAllah.

This is the first time anything like this has been done. Many of us including myself love theme parks but are put off by the unislamic environment, now's your chance to experience the thrills of the park in a halal environment inshaAllah!

In other words they object to others drinking, gambling or playing music and thats why they don't want to go to Alton Towers, because its full of unbelievers.

No one forces them to do these things, except maybe listen to the music but even then they can go to a different part of the park.

I rarely drink and I have no patience will people that get drunk, I think gambling is pathetic and I don't like pop music but that doesn't mean I can't tolerate other people's vices.

It shows they are unwilling to tolerate these things in a country where there are accepted and part of the status quo.

[A.Saturnus]

It shows they are unwilling to tolerate these things in a country where there are accepted and part of the status quo.

I tolerate smokers but you can bet that if I rent a pub for a privat occasion, everyone who smokes gets thrown out.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I tolerate smokers but you can bet that if I rent a pub for a privat occasion, everyone who smokes gets thrown out.

Then you don't tolerate them really, not if you can discrinate against them, you just tolerate them when you have no choice, thats not really tolerance.

If you were really tolerant towards them you wouldn't bar them from your pub.

[Husar]

I´m also not tolerant towards smokers because they don´t tolerate my desire for fresh air and a longer life.:juggle2:

[Spetulhu]

In other words they object to others drinking, gambling or playing music and thats why they don't want to go to Alton Towers, because its full of unbelievers.

No one forces them to do these things, except maybe listen to the music but even then they can go to a different part of the park.

And what exactly is the problem with that? They pay for it, they can make the rules. Surely using cold hard cash is a lot more Western than firebombing the place where infidels play filthy games and drink alcohol?

[Fragony]

Why do some people insist on not looking what all this implicates? Sure they can hire a park if they want, and the people that say that it would be worse if there were any laws to prevent that are 100% correct(well not really, for some people they exist of course), but that has nothing to do with it, at all. It's not about 'should they be allowed to', why not ask 'why do they want to'? This is going nowhere, two discussions in one...

[Duke of Gloucester]

It's because of the scale, Frag. If this was happening at a theme park once a week then it would be correct to worry about it, as you say, not because it shouldn't be allowed but because but because the fact they want to suggests that they see themselves as separate. However, since this is a one-off I think we can afford to be relaxed about it. Most Moslems are quite happy to enjoy (or not) Alton Towers as it is. You can't expect everyone to be comfortable with current culture and mores, so if a few people feel the need to change the atmosphere at Alton Towers once in a while to enjoy it more there is not really a problem.

My question for you (and others) is: "Why are you so worried about this?" Are you extrapolating the views of some Moslems to all, or do you feel that all Moslems should blend in completely?

[Fragony]

My question for you (and others) is: "Why are you so worried about this?" Are you extrapolating the views of some Moslems to all, or do you feel that all Moslems should blend in completely?

It's important for another debate, namely the integration as a whole. There are problems with muslims in the west, and people try to shove that on non-existant things that supposedly force muslims into isolation. My point is that that this isolation is voluntary, and as long as that isn't recognised as such it's of no use having discussions about what we can do.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Well i didnt read it because when it said 'British' i assumed it was a British Person not a muslim, he isnt British to me although i suppose it it a loss as he was fighting for Britian..

Not entirely non-existant and voluntary then.

To me your answer shows the former of the two possibilities. A tiny minority of Moslems are going to Alton Towers on an Islamic day. You generalise this to problems with Moslems in the west.

[Fragony]

Not entirely non-existant and voluntary then.

No, but not our doing either, it's enforced from within their own communities.


To me your answer shows the former of the two possibilities. A tiny minority of Moslems are going to Alton Towers on an Islamic day. You generalise this to problems with Moslems in the west.

I generalise the multicultural wishthinking in the west, always seeking the blame by theirselves, oh what did we do wrong, let's spend a few more millions on the emancipating of this lot. Muslims tend to have as little contact with westerners as possible, fine with me really, their choice, I just don't accept to be blaimed for it. It is not the west not accepting them, it's the other way around. If we could just realise that we could fire at least half the government with their constant whining.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I&#180;m also not tolerant towards smokers because they don&#180;t tolerate my desire for fresh air and a longer life.:juggle2:

Neither am I, I'd ban it if I could but I put up with it because I have to.

Broadly I think Fragony is right, its not this one incident, everything you've said is true, its the implication.

These people do not want to integrate and the fact that they went to the trouble of block-booking the park suggests there are a considerable number of them, enough to make it viable.

That is a worry and if it goes well once of course they'll do it again.

It's symptomatic of a lack of willingness to integrate and that worries me.

I found this in my copy of last week's paper. It's written by a British Muslim and I suggest everyone here read it. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2252571.html

[A.Saturnus]

Then you don't tolerate them really, not if you can discrinate against them, you just tolerate them when you have no choice, thats not really tolerance.

If you were really tolerant towards them you wouldn't bar them from your pub.

That's entirely fine with me. According to your definition, I'm not tolerant of smokers (just as you). But the point is: I don't have to be tolerant of smokers. I have to accept them as far as the law allows them to smoke. But no one can insist that I would have to tolerate them where I'm not required to by law. The same is true for the examples of culture you gave above. Culture is voluntary.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, but you please read the source above, then you'll understand why I'm worried.

[Fragony]

I found this in my copy of last week's paper. It's written by a British Muslim and I suggest everyone here read it. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2252571.html

Lovely :laugh4:

Ah well, christians burned witches, and I cannot stress enough that christians burned witches, did I mention that christians burned witches? They also burned witches by the way. Everything is fine, we all love eachother, explosions are an optical illusion, we don't think so we don't need heads, kebab tastes awesome and christians burned witches.

[Slyspy]

Hey, if they want to hire a theme park for the day they can. If they want rules about who can attend their party and what food they want then they can. No problem, they paid their money and are harming no one. I see no wider issue here. What I do see is one or two Orgahs who need hitting with the banstick. Or an actual stick.

[Fragony]

What I do see is one or two Orgahs who need hitting with the banstick. Or an actual stick.

This is a discussion forum sweetcheeks, not Dontwannahearitstan.

Maybe you like it better here, http://www.indymedia.co.uk/

no need to thank me :balloon2:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hey, if they want to hire a theme park for the day they can. If they want rules about who can attend their party and what food they want then they can. No problem, they paid their money and are harming no one. I see no wider issue here. What I do see is one or two Orgahs who need hitting with the banstick. Or an actual stick.

Well I do and it's illustated very well in the link I post a couple of posts ago.

An article from the Sunday Times written by a Muslim Jounalist who who spent six weeks in Beeston, a suberb of Leeds. According to him all the locals think that the White Westerner is out to get them, that the bombings in America and London were faked and that there's nothing in the Koran about not killing civilians.

This is a population that is not only not integrating but who see themselves surrounded by enemies that want to wipe them off the face of the planet.

Why don't you actually read the article, then judge whether I'm some kind of Nazi or not.

[caravel]

Well I do and it's illustated very well in the link I post a couple of posts ago.

It is, but it's also The Sunday Times, that is Rupert Murdoch's posh version of The Sun. Reading between the lines it appears that a reporter, that happens to be muslim, went under cover in the muslim community and spoke to a few people, uncovering evidence of irrational extremism.

This is not a majority thing, it's a minority of fanatics trying, and usually failing, to pervert their fellow muslims to their warped ideals. It's also plain and simple ignorance (not race/religion specific). This is not a big revelation of "all muslims denying 9/11".

I have a feeling that an undercover operation among other ethnic groups would yield similar results of disguised prejudices and irrational fears of "the muslims are going to take over" etc.

[Spetulhu]

I have a feeling that an undercover operation among other ethnic groups would yield similar results of disguised prejudices and irrational fears of "the muslims are going to take over" etc.

You wouldn't want to hear what some of my friends and relatives think of foreigners. None of them has ever lost his job or girlfriend to a foreigner, no one's been robbed or assaulted. I don't think they've even spoken to anyone more foreign than the guys in the local pizza/kebab house. Random foreigners are worth more to them if they're not dark-skinned and don't speak Russian.

[caravel]

Same here in my workplace. Closet islamophobes and sometimes out and out racists, though nice as anything when talking to a muslim face to face. It's happening both sides of the fence, a cycle of distrust bred by intolerance and misunderstanding, all fuelled by an often inflammatory media.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While I agree with everything you guys say I really think you should give the reporter a little more credit here. He's talking about important people in the community, not just some disgruntled kids. It is ignorance but the most disturbing thing in it was this:


Bham then asked me if I would ever blow myself up for Islam. I replied that the Koran says you should not harm innocent people.

“What Koran was that?” he countered. “Don’t fool yourself by saying jihad is a struggle within, to get on with life, to motivate myself to get up for prayers and that sort of thing,” he said. “That’s not jihad. Who told you that?”

and this:


You don’t get anywhere with the dirty kuffar (infidels),” he told me, claiming there was a widespread conspiracy against Muslims and that the 7/7 bombings were part of it. “These brothers never did it,” he said. “And understand this. In order for America and Britain to go to Iraq they have to have reasons and sometimes, I’m afraid, if you haven’t got a reason, you make up that reason.”

Don't try and tell me its just a few people, this is a tight knit community, it'll be a lot of people there thinking the same things and the Mosques seem to be where a lot of this comes from. This is where two of the July bombers came from.


While I was there an imam of the Bengali mosque, Hamid Ali, had praised the bombers, saying their actions would make non-Muslims “prick up their ears” and listen. I had learnt such sentiments are, one way or another, widespread in Beeston. Ghani, Bham, Jabbar and many others believe in some form of conspiracy against Muslims.

Even the seemingly sensible Sabeer insisted the western “enemy” was out to get him. “It’s the way of the enemy really, the kuffar,” he said. “I’ve always known it as divide and rule.”


The Times is not just the Sun and sneering at it like that is silly, I'll admit that the daily paper is less "heavy" than it used to be but the Sunday paper hasn't suffered at all.

I'm not saying its all Muslims but I think there's one big thing that a lot of people forget, again something pointed out in the article:


Sabeer’s view was, I believe, a defensive reaction to a perceived threat. But it is also a stance coupled with an idea of a global Islamic “brotherhood” taking precedence over other communities.

Unless the cycle of Muslim suspicion and separation can be broken, the dangers will remain. Ghani and his friends will continue to feel that, as he claimed, the western mind and the Muslim mind are irreconcilable.

There's the crux of it, they see themselves a Muslim before anything else and they don't trust people that aren't Muslim.

If you want to ignore this fine but I'm going to continue to be worried.

[caravel]

While I agree with everything you guys say I really think you should give the reporter a little more credit here. He's talking about important people in the community, not just some disgruntled kids. It is ignorance but the most disturbing thing in it was this:


Bham then asked me if I would ever blow myself up for Islam. I replied that the Koran says you should not harm innocent people.

“What Koran was that?” he countered. “Don’t fool yourself by saying jihad is a struggle within, to get on with life, to motivate myself to get up for prayers and that sort of thing,” he said. “That’s not jihad. Who told you that?”

A "community worker", a DIY Shop owner, PC equipment shop owner and a cleric who had "praised the bombers" by saying that non-Muslims would “prick up their ears” and listen. Well, I'm not sure how that statement equates to "praise" of the bombers. This could be understood as politicians taking the threat of islamic extremists seriously. Not exactly major business leaders, MPs, councillors or true community leaders though are they? And how many? What, five people?

This kind of idle, ill though out, praise of terrorists groups exists in many cultures. As a youth I worked with "plastic paddies" (offspring of Irish ex-pats) that praised the IRA, wore shamrocks, and sang rebel songs in a mock irish accent, without knowing what they were talking about. While at odds with the state some muslims may naively see the terrorists as allies and the western world as their enemies. This doesn' mean they're going to go out tomorrow and blow themselves up. It is similar to the masses of protestants or catholics in Northern Ireland having to choose an allegience to one group or another.


Don't try and tell me its just a few people, this is a tight knit community, it'll be a lot of people there thinking the same things and the Mosques seem to be where a lot of this comes from. This is where two of the July bombers came from.

And the more tight knit it becomes the more this minority will spread their vicious lies. The mosques are a convenient cover for the extremists. These people claim they're "first and foremost muslim", wheras in fact they're first and foremost power hungy lunatics, that want to brainwash, mostly young men, with their warped version of Islam so that they can gain personal power and status for themselves within these small communities. Islam, in this perverted form, is the medium for transferring these hateful ethics onto the young and impressionable and then coercing them through more lies, to go out and destroy the people that these bitter men hate so much, the white, supposedly christian, westerners. But for the most part they're impotent ranters, that the vast majority of muslims don't take seriously at all. All the evils perpetrated against Islam as a whole are, in their eyes, on the heads of countries such as the UK and US. This is because in their youth they were brainwashed by similar lunatics. These lunatics have been bred by the western involvement in the middle east. They mainly come from countries where Europeans or Americans have had a big influence , or they are of the "homegrown" variety. Many of these clerics are also enraged by the lack of islamic influence in modern muslim culture, especially among muslims settled in europe, and are worried about the "corrupting influence of the west". This leads to the more 'forceful' preaching described in the article. I think we can safely say that if the US/UK/Others had not among others:

1) Got involved in the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Assisted Israel.
3) Invaded Iraq.
4) Invaded Afghanistan.
5) Invaded Iraq again.

We probably wouldn't have an "Islamic Terrorist" problem today. Who can really deny this?


The Times is not just the Sun and sneering at it like that is silly, I'll admit that the daily paper is less "heavy" than it used to be but the Sunday paper hasn't suffered at all.

I mean you no offence, but The Times is slimy right wing poo paper and likes to whip up the masses up into an anti frenzy just as The Sun does.


There's the crux of it, they see themselves a Muslim before anything else and they don't trust people that aren't Muslim.

Well it's not the crux, because it's only an article in a newspaper. no doubt if muslims are found to be behind the Mumbai train bombings, The Times will fill the front page with something like this:


MUSLIM TERRORISTS BEHIND
BOMBAY BOMBINGS

[Insert picture of masked kalashnikov weilding guy here]

Islamic terrorists were behind the... (continued on page 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 along with plenty of old stuff about 9/11 and 7/7 along with full colour maps of how the bombings [i]may have been carried out, (and also because we can't phyically fit any more text on this page due to the huge headline and massive picture of the masked kalashnikov weilding guy above.))

Next week muslim women dancing in the streets also wielding kalashnikovs don't miss it!


If you want to ignore this fine but I'm going to continue to be worried.

I'm more worried about Labour getting re-elected.

[A.Saturnus]

There's the crux of it, they see themselves a Muslim before anything else and they don't trust people that aren't Muslim.

If you want to ignore this fine but I'm going to continue to be worried.

That may very well be true for a significant number of Muslims in the West. However, this thread is about Muslims wanting to enjoy a funpark their own way by paying for it. I still insist that that's a completely normal thing for every normal member of society and comparable things happen every day involving millions of people in every country of the West. Yet, when Muslims do that it's part of some "bigger issue" (that may very well exist, don't get me wrong). This shows that some people differentiat between "them" and "us". And they don't trust people who are Muslims.

If you want ignore this fine but I'm going to continue to be worried.

[Tribesman]

I'm not saying its all Muslims but I think there's one big thing that a lot of people forget, again something pointed out in the article:

Thats true , you didn't say it was all Muslims , however.......According to him all the locals think that the White Westerner is out to get them.....the article neither says what you suggest or gives more than a couple of examples .
I am sure if you crossed the Tamar you could get some nice juicy quotes from a couple of locals who really hate tourists and blow-ins , and of course being from near Cornwall itself would give your article that little bit of credibility , would that mean the Cornish are a problem (actually the Mail , I think , has done that one already) .
So as an alternative why not go to a nice local estate in Exeter where 40% of the population have no job and see how many quotes you can get from people who think that thier government is out to get them , or that people from other parts of the city are different from them .

[Fragony]

However, this thread is about Muslims wanting to enjoy a funpark their own way by paying for it.

No it's not, for a psychologist you are doing a pretty bad job at listening...

Once again, it's about the implication. It's not important wether or not they should be allowed to, it's important why they want to in the first place. You know the book 'Lord of the flies'? And do you understand why I mention it?

[GoreBag]

You know the book 'Lord of the flies'? And do you understand why I mention it?

Because you're attempting to compare Islam with the base, savage nature of humanity, and claiming that, like children and other creatures with a big id, Muslims will set up societies that persecute the weak and worship unseen monsters with sacrificial, decapitated ungulate heads?

Probably not. Why are you bringing it up?

[InsaneApache]

I was listening to the organiser of the 'event' on the radio today. Apparently it's not a closed event at all, anyone can attend, as long as they pay for it.

The wife won't like it though, as this 'family day', his words, preclude any chance of us both being able to ride the attractions together.

So which is it then? A celebration of Islam or the repression of women?

I love to see their faces if they tried to repress my missus, she's not one for turning the other cheek. :sweatdrop:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And the more tight knit it becomes the more this minority will spread their vicious lies. The mosques are a convenient cover for the extremists. These people claim they're "first and foremost muslim", wheras in fact they're first and foremost power hungy lunatics, that want to brainwash, mostly young men, with their warped version of Islam so that they can gain personal power and status for themselves within these small communities. Islam, in this perverted form, is the medium for transferring these hateful ethics onto the young and impressionable and then coercing them through more lies, to go out and destroy the people that these bitter men hate so much, the white, supposedly christian, westerners. But for the most part they're impotent ranters, that the vast majority of muslims don't take seriously at all. All the evils perpetrated against Islam as a whole are, in their eyes, on the heads of countries such as the UK and US. This is because in their youth they were brainwashed by similar lunatics. These lunatics have been bred by the western involvement in the middle east. They mainly come from countries where Europeans or Americans have had a big influence , or they are of the "homegrown" variety. Many of these clerics are also enraged by the lack of islamic influence in modern muslim culture, especially among muslims settled in europe, and are worried about the "corrupting influence of the west". This leads to the more 'forceful' preaching described in the article. I think we can safely say that if the US/UK/Others had not among others:

1) Got involved in the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Assisted Israel.
3) Invaded Iraq.
4) Invaded Afghanistan.
5) Invaded Iraq again.

We probably wouldn't have an "Islamic Terrorist" problem today. Who can really deny this?

While the current Middle Eastern situation is undoubtedly the result of European and particually American, influence you can not blame the West for the way they have reacted.

You can't blame the West for suicide bombers, for instance.




I mean you no offence, but The Times is slimy right wing poo paper and likes to whip up the masses up into an anti frenzy just as [i]The Sun does.

I take offence here, I'm sorry but while The Times is no longer the paper it once was it is not as bad as you make out. Perhaps the article is weighted, you're probably right there but its not a fabrication.




Well it's not the crux, because it's only an article in a newspaper. no doubt if muslims are found to be behind the Mumbai train bombings, The Times will fill the front page with something like this:

The crux of the problem is that Muslims see themselves as Muslim first and national afterward. There were a number of Muslim servicemen who objected to serving in Iraq because they didn't want to fight Muslims. Channel four asked Muslims in London a few weeks ago whether they though Britain had an anti-Muslim government, the answer was usually a cagey "yes."

The reason? Invading Iraq and Afganistan, because they're Muslim. In Britain no Cleric or Muslim community leader was willing to stand up last year and say "These attacks were wrong and abhorent to my religion." There was plenty of condemnation but it was usually followed by "I understand/sympathise with the bombers' motives."


I'm more worried about Labour getting re-elected.

Oh so am I, I'm far less worried about this, after all there are still only 1.5 million Muslims in the country. I'm only worried because its wrong for them to have such a warped world view.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That may very well be true for a significant number of Muslims in the West. However, this thread is about Muslims wanting to enjoy a funpark their own way by paying for it. I still insist that that's a completely normal thing for every normal member of society and comparable things happen every day involving millions of people in every country of the West. Yet, when Muslims do that it's part of some "bigger issue" (that may very well exist, don't get me wrong). This shows that some people differentiat between "them" and "us". And they don't trust people who are Muslims.

If you want ignore this fine but I'm going to continue to be worried.

I'm worried because they feel the need to organise this, they're clearly not comfortable in wider English culture, which I believe is a problem. I was using the article to back up my point. Take the article and the event together, thats all I'm saying. Look at the bigger picture.


Thats true , you didn't say it was all Muslims , however.......According to him all the locals think that the White Westerner is out to get them.....the article neither says what you suggest or gives more than a couple of examples .
I am sure if you crossed the Tamar you could get some nice juicy quotes from a couple of locals who really hate tourists and blow-ins , and of course being from near Cornwall itself would give your article that little bit of credibility , would that mean the Cornish are a problem (actually the Mail , I think , has done that one already) .
So as an alternative why not go to a nice local estate in Exeter where 40% of the population have no job and see how many quotes you can get from people who think that thier government is out to get them , or that people from other parts of the city are different from them .

Uh huh?

1. I've already said the article is weighted and my summery above is what is implied, rather than stated, I'll grant you that. It is still there in the article.

2. Everybody knows Westminster is out to get everybody, especially those of us in Exeter, how we ended up with a Labour MP I don't know.

3. The Cornish are, unique. They aren't like everyone else in the Southwest, until recently they well their own flag on their fishing vessals in foreign ports.

[A.Saturnus]

No it's not, for a psychologist you are doing a pretty bad job at listening...



Can I have some social exclusion with that please?

Well you anglo-saxons, how do feel about not being welcome on your own soil?

'unislamic enviroment' hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I did read what you say and quite frankly, that fits perfectly what I said above.



Once again, it's about the implication. It's not important wether or not they should be allowed to, it's important why they want to in the first place. You know the book 'Lord of the flies'? And do you understand why I mention it?

I maintain that it implicates nothing. Again, the exact same thing happens every day, thousands of times by all subcultures of society. Only when Muslims do it, it's something to worry about for some. Please tell me what can possibly wrong with this statement.

If I remember correctly 'Lord of the Flies' tells of youths who fail to cooperate to survive because of ignorance and irrational fears.

[A.Saturnus]

I'm worried because they feel the need to organise this, they're clearly not comfortable in wider English culture, which I believe is a problem. I was using the article to back up my point. Take the article and the event together, thats all I'm saying. Look at the bigger picture.


The article and the event do not form a bigger picture. People believing absurd conspiracy theories and living in paranoia are a problem. People organizing a fun event their own way isn't. Even if these people do a perfectly normal thing because of distrust towards other parts of society (which is projection) then it still is a perfectly normal thing. Complain about their intention (as you assume them to be) but don't complain about a normal thing they do.

[Fragony]

If I remember correctly 'Lord of the Flies' tells of youths who fail to cooperate to survive because of ignorance and irrational fears.

Put 50 people in blue shirts, and 50 people in red, drop them in an enviroment and see what happens. Isolation is a very dangerous thing, especially when the need for identity is of such importance for them as a whole.


Can I have some social exclusion with that please?

Well you anglo-saxons, how do feel about not being welcome on your own soil?

'unislamic enviroment' hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You will have to forgive me the sarcasm, I just like doing that, but I tried making my point in the first sentence.

[Joker85]

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8259/frontpage8bi.jpg

[Fragony]

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8259/frontpage8bi.jpg

Best. threadkiller. ever. Point taken :laugh4:

:dancinglock:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Agreed, we're two groups of people with tooth picks attacking each others' brick walls.

:idea2: Lets just all get along.

[A.Saturnus]

Put 50 people in blue shirts, and 50 people in red, drop them in an enviroment and see what happens. Isolation is a very dangerous thing, especially when the need for identity is of such importance for them as a whole.


Yes, Tajfel's minimal group effect. The are two ways to counter it:
- make the appearance of different groups as unlikely as possible. That means the existence of subcultures is to be extinguished, every would have to fit a norm.
- educate people to accept other groups as they are, let them have their customs as much as possible.

Yes, isolation is dangerous, but having a fun day with your friends has nothing to do with isolation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How do either of those relate to Tajfel? The experiment was about self and other and he demonstrated that even when you have two similar groups if they compete they will see the opposing group as the "other" above and beyond the confines of the competion.

We have always vilified those we are in competion with, its part of human nature, which is why some vilify all Muslims at the moment, which is wrong.

[econ21]

I think we can safely say that if the US/UK/Others had not among others:

1) Got involved in the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Assisted Israel.
3) Invaded Iraq.
4) Invaded Afghanistan.
5) Invaded Iraq again.

We probably wouldn't have an "Islamic Terrorist" problem today. Who can really deny this?

I suspect that's a rather parochial view - to attribute "the Islamic terrorist problem" to what the US/UK recently did or did not do. I suspect that you have to look at the Islamic countries and what is going on within them to understand the phenomenon. Attributing all their problems to outsiders like the US/UK is playing in to what Blair rightly called a false sense of Muslim victimhood and grievance.

For example, I would look at the Iranian revolution, surely one of the strongest early signs of rising Islamic militancy that predates items 1-5 above. Or look at Algeria, Egypt, Kashmir and Saudi Arabia. I suspect what has been going on in those countries is pretty much unrelated to most items on on your list.

I am pretty sure 9/11 was unrelated to any of the above items with the exception of (3) and even then, did the US/UK "invade Iraq" in 1991? I recall Bush ordering a stop after Kuwait was liberated.

Ditto I am not convinced US/UK "invaded Afghanistan". They merely backed the Northern Alliance. Russia, of course, did invade Afghanistan and that probably played a bigger part in the rise of OBL than most items on your list.

Bottomline: I suspect the roots of Islamic terrorism are long term, complex and grounded in the internal politics, culture etc of Muslim countries, not the foreign policies of Western countries.

EDIT: apologies for straying off the topic of Alton Towers. On that subject, my only positive reaction is that any group of traditionalists that fears the influence of modern music is probably swimming hopelessly against the tide.

[Papewaio]

Considering the very word assassin comes from a sect that by todays standards would be called terrorists we can safely dismiss the idea that it is a response to what the US/UK have recently done in response to terrorism.

A bit of a farce to blame the response to a situation as causing the situation.

Response to terrorism caused the prior terrorism? So the terrorists now have time machines?

[caravel]

I suspect that's a rather parochial view - to attribute "the Islamic terrorist problem" to what the US/UK recently did or did not do. I suspect that you have to look at the Islamic countries and what is going on within them to understand the phenomenon. Attributing all their problems to outsiders like the US/UK is playing in to what Blair rightly called a false sense of Muslim victimhood and grievance.

For example, I would look at the Iranian revolution, surely one of the strongest early signs of rising Islamic militancy that predates items 1-5 above. Or look at Algeria, Egypt, Kashmir and Saudi Arabia. I suspect what has been going on in those countries is pretty much unrelated to most items on on your list.

The Iranian Revolution is an example of Islamic militancy, not terrorism. The others are the same. None of this equates to the so called "global terror" directed against thw west.


I am pretty sure 9/11 was unrelated to any of the above items with the exception of (3) and even then, did the US/UK "invade Iraq" in 1991? I recall Bush ordering a stop after Kuwait was liberated.

The foundation of groups such as Al Qaeda, didn't occur overnight. Their main cause of existence, is the US 'involvement' in Israel, and the rest of the middle east. It was an invasion. You are confusing invasion with occupation. The US forces invaded Iraq during the first Gulf War, but they didn't occupy it. This was seen by muslims as a sort of "crusade", which is how any sort of activity involving westerner's air power, tanks and bombs on muslim soil generally is perceived. This may be part of the "false sense of Muslim victimhood and grievance" thing, but there you have it.


Ditto I am not convinced US/UK "invaded Afghanistan". They merely backed the Northern Alliance. Russia, of course, did invade Afghanistan and that probably played a bigger part in the rise of OBL than most items on your list.

Again, the Invasion/occupation thing. They basically interfered and backed a certain side in a war while flying over dropping bombs. This would be an "invasion of airspace", bombing runs usually entail this. If you don't want to call this an invasion you can call it an attack, or are attacks ok? As I recall 9/11 was an "attack", not an invasion, yet it justified a response by the US and it's allies. The US chose to remove the taliban, a force it had previously no beef with. This was to secure the signing of the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline deal, which otherwise, with the Taliban in place, would have been impossible. The very convenient pretext was, that they were going after those behind the perpetatrators of the 9/11 attacks. It seems that muslims are not allowed to respond to aggression though. They have to sit back and take it, because the westerners are only trying to "liberate" them and install "democracies" in their countries. "now try to relax, this is going hurt but it's necessary, we know what's best for you..."


Bottomline: I suspect the roots of Islamic terrorism are long term, complex and grounded in the internal politics, culture etc of Muslim countries, not the foreign policies of Western countries.

I truly believe it's a combination of factors. To say that islamic terrorism is "grounded in the culture" of muslim countries would be the same as saying that terrorism is grounded in the culture of Northern Ireland, an interesting point. This sort of terrorism is the reaction of the conquered and those that have no other means with which to wage war on a perceived aggressor. They cannot succeed militarily so terrorist tactics are used. But the crux of it is, that terrorism is almost always a reaction to an aggression, be it an occupation, invasion, attack or political interference.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thats a very Partisan view. The first Iraq war, or operation "Desert Strom" lasted 100 hours and barely made it into Iraq, it did not involve any re-drawing of borders and the Saudi's and were very happy for the Americans and others to go in.

The war in was to capture Bin Laden, unless you believe 9/11 was faked, anything else was a bonus but that was definitely the reason.

Its interesting that you should bring up Northern Ireland. Modern terrorism was invented by the IRA at the turn of the last century and suicide bombing was invented by Muslims in the last fifty years, both ethnic groups have a long history of ruthless and bloody guerilla fighting in their native land.

In the case of Islam though the issue is the developement of the concept of Jihad, IIRC never put foward by the Prophet as a military struggle.

[caravel]

Thats a very Partisan view. The first Iraq war, or operation "Desert Strom" lasted 100 hours and barely made it into Iraq, it did not involve any re-drawing of borders and the Saudi's and were very happy for the Americans and others to go in.

Not a partisan view, as I am not a muslim, nor anti-US, and I actually find religion on the whole pretty pointless. Of course the Saudis were 'happy', the 'government' not the general population, why wouldn't they be?


The war in was to capture Bin Laden, unless you believe 9/11 was faked, anything else was a bonus but that was definitely the reason.

No. No one starts a war like that just to capture one man. That is verging on insane. I don't believe 9/11 was faked, but it happened at an ideal time to serve as a pretext to invade Afghanistan. Just as 9/11 was used as a pretext to attack Iraq, with Bush claiming that there were links between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi Ba'athists!


Its interesting that you should bring up Northern Ireland. Modern terrorism was invented by the IRA at the turn of the last century and suicide bombing was invented by Muslims in the last fifty years, both ethnic groups have a long history of ruthless and bloody guerilla fighting in their native land.

Modern terrorism wasn't invented by the IRA. They're not known to use suicide bombers for one thing, this tactic could be considered one of the defining points of modern terrorism. Suicide attacks go back to biblical times and there's the infamous Kamikaze attacks in WW2.


In the case of Islam though the issue is the developement of the concept of Jihad, IIRC never put foward by the Prophet as a military struggle.

Correct. As I've said before, this is a religion being used as an excuse for vengance, Islam is not the problem it is those that are perverting it to fit their agenda.

[econ21]

The Iranian Revolution is an example of Islamic militancy, not terrorism. The others are the same. None of this equates to the so called "global terror" directed against thw west.

You have a short memory. You don't remember the American Embassy hostages? You don't see any similarity between that and what's going on in Lebanon and Palestine now? At one stage the current Iranian president was identified as one of the leaders of the hostage takers (was that ever confirmed or refuted, BTW)? Iran is one of the main backers of Islamic terrorism in Lebanon and now Iraq. Without the Iranian revolution that I identify as pivotal, it would not be.

I'm half inclined to bring up Lockerbie here too - I've always figured the Iranians much more likely suspects than Gadhafi.


The foundation of groups such as Al Qaeda, didn't occur overnight. Their main cause of existence, is the US 'involvement' in Israel, and the rest of the middle east.

My reading of OBLs words is that he does not really care much about Palestine. He certainty did not oppose action against Iraq in 1991 - rather he wanted it to be his mujahadeen fighting Saddam, not the M1 Abrams. (Maybe we should have let them get on with it.) What really got him riled at the US was their troops defending his own country. And that was not an invasion of his country, in any shape or form, of course. It was a defence of his own country. But because the defenders were despicable infidels, it annoyed him more than the rape of a Muslim neighbour (Kuwait).

I also suspect US "involvement" in Israel is overplayed. The Israelis seem more than able of looking after themselves. The West helped them not at all in 1948 and they've been going from strength to strength after that. Take out all foreign backing (US, Soviet, Saudi, Iranian, Iraqi etc) and I think Israel's edge over her neighbours would be even greater.


It was an invasion. You are confusing invasion with occupation. The US forces invaded Iraq during the first Gulf War, but they didn't occupy it. This was seen by muslims as a sort of "crusade", which is how any sort of activity involving westerner's air power, tanks and bombs on muslim soil generally is perceived. This may be part of the "false sense of Muslim victimhood and grievance" thing, but there you have it.

Definitely false but also fairly insignificant in the wider scheme of things. It certainly did not bother the Syrians, the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, the Shias in Iraq etc. I'll wager 80%+ Muslims would not cite the liberation of Kuwait in 1991 as a western crusade against them. Even OBL does not bring it up (except to say "why did you not let me do it instead?").


The US chose to remove the taliban, a force it had previously no beef with. This was to secure the signing of the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline deal, which otherwise, with the Taliban in place, would have been impossible.

Yes, it is surprising how sheltering the group that killed 3000 of your civilians will suddenly give you a beef with someone, isn't it? :wall: And do you want a foil hat to go with that Pipeline theory? BTW, 9/11 was not done by one man. OBL and AQ were key props for the Taliban. You don't remember them assassinating the Northern Alliance leader a day or so after 9/11? Rather a clever move to shore up their backers, the Taliban, while waiting for the inevitable American response.


I truly believe it's a combination of factors. To say that islamic terrorism is "grounded in the culture" of muslim countries would be the same as saying that terrorism is grounded in the culture of Northern Ireland, an interesting point.

Interesting not necessarily equating to false. In Northern Ireland, due to centuries of conflict, you have a situation where large numbers of people in the two divided communities find it quite acceptable to harass school children of the opposite group on their way to school, disdain relationships formed across the divide, and frankly are happy to condone terrorism against each other. Reports since the Good Friday agreement seem to indicate these cultural divisions are stronger now than ever before. People in both the Republic and the mainland find these attitudes - you could call them cultural - alien; indeed, the Irish in Eire and the mainland British probably have more in common with each other than with either community in Northern Ireland.

I don't know what the exact parallels between Irish and Islamic terrorism are, but I suspect the causes of both extend back centuries. Heck, a lot of the Sunni vs Shia conflict in Iraq seems to date back to the birth of Islam itself. (At which time, it was the Islamicists who were very much the invaders.)

Yes, of course Islamic terrorism is due to a combination of factors. But I'd put Western foreign policy pretty near the bottom of list. What's going on in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, Iran etc is nearly all driven by internal conflicts and disputes. Islamic fundamentalism is primarily focussed on Islamic countries - it is too weak, geopolitically, to have serious ambitions elsewhere. The West is targeted just because it is seen as propping up "the other side". Technically, you might be right - if the West backed off, like Spain after Madrid, maybe they would be "spared" Islamic terrorism. But even then, OBL cites mass conversion of the US as another of the key conditions for a ceasefire. And more importantly, Islamic terrorism in places like Iraq, Algeria, Egypt, Plalestine and Saudi Arabia would burn ever more brightly even if the West did turn isolationist.

[caravel]

And do you want a foil hat to go with that Pipeline theory?

Google "Unocal" and "pipeline" and see what you come up with. More than a "theory", in fact a real project underway at present involving Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan. The US started making noises about attacking Afghanistan before the 9/11 attacks. This was always on the agenda, the attacks simply spurred it on. Initially the US backed the Taliban as did Pakistan of course, which is why the Pakistani people were not happy about this sudden "switch of sides". Once the Taliban stopped "playing ball", they had to be removed. This doesn't come from "conspiracy theorist" websites, it's well documented, and was covered in various, decent, newspapers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Modern terrorism wasn't invented by the IRA. They're not known to use suicide bombers for one thing, this tactic could be considered one of the defining points of modern terrorism. Suicide attacks go back to biblical times and there's the infamous Kamikaze attacks in WW2.

Wrong, prior to the IRA people did not use IEDs, harrass with morters and machine guns, blow up train-tracks, etc.

Suicide bombing is a very small part of modern terrorism and its mostly confined to the Middle East, the IRA also pioneered the murder of civilians and non-combatants, including children.

No points there, I'm afraid.

The US probably would have worked with the Taliban and given them some nice aid packages to convince them prior to 9/11, war is expensive and un-ecenomic.

[Tribesman]

Wrong, prior to the IRA people did not use IEDs, harrass with morters and machine guns, blow up train-tracks, etc.

Errrr..... yes they did . Ummmmm....yes they did , oh and ...yes they did etc .:oops: no points there I am afraid .
the IRA also pioneered the murder of civilians and non-combatants, including children.
No points there either , they cartainly are murderous ---------(best to erase that word as I don't want another warning for using normal everyday words), but they are not the first .

[Spetulhu]

I dislike this intensely, how does this sound:

I hire Alton Towers and I exclude anyone who is not a Christian by:


Playing crappy "christian" music for the eleventh year in a row? That's one day I wouldn't show up there. What are you going to do about this music party that's made just to exclude me?

http://www.ultimateevents.org.uk/altontowers.aspx

Alton Towers 06 - Saturday 20th May

For the last 11 years the UK's premier theme park has rocked to the beat of some of the top acts on the Contemporary Christian Music Scene. The Ultimate Event has provided the perfect May day outing for 1,000s of thrill seeking young people.

Some of the best white knuckle rides in the UK form the perfect background to the ultimate experience. Groups travel from literally all over the UK to ride Nemesis, Air and the latest addition to the incredible roller coaster family, Rita - Queen of Speed.

The evening brings on an extravaganza of music for the droves of people making their way to our purpose built arena. Over the years we have been proud to host some of the greats of christian music as well as introduce up and coming talent. Delirious?, Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline, Rebecca St James, All Star United have all wowed the crowd at Alton.

Our driving passion at Ultimate is to put on a great day which Christian young people would be proud to bring their friends. Over the years hundreds of young people have had their lives revolutionized at Alton as they have been impacted with the incredible message of Jesus for the first time.

2004 was a massive hit with three top acts from the USA, Superchick, Rock n Roll Worship Circus and Newsboys. We are currently working on putting together a great line up for 20th May 2006. Negotiations are taking place and we hope to bring you news soon.

As ever we will ensure that the gospel message will be clear, on point and the perfect drawstring to a day of ultimate rides, ultimate entertainment and ultimate truth.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wrong, prior to the IRA people did not use IEDs, harrass with morters and machine guns, blow up train-tracks, etc.

Errrr..... yes they did . Ummmmm....yes they did , oh and ...yes they did etc .:oops: no points there I am afraid .
the IRA also pioneered the murder of civilians and non-combatants, including children.
No points there either , they cartainly are murderous ---------(best to erase that word as I don't want another warning for using normal everyday words), but they are not the first .

Ok, who?


Alton Towers 06 - Saturday 20th May

For the last 11 years the UK's premier theme park has rocked to the beat of some of the top acts on the Contemporary Christian Music Scene. The Ultimate Event has provided the perfect May day outing for 1,000s of thrill seeking young people.

Some of the best white knuckle rides in the UK form the perfect background to the ultimate experience. Groups travel from literally all over the UK to ride Nemesis, Air and the latest addition to the incredible roller coaster family, Rita - Queen of Speed.

The evening brings on an extravaganza of music for the droves of people making their way to our purpose built arena. Over the years we have been proud to host some of the greats of christian music as well as introduce up and coming talent. Delirious?, Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline, Rebecca St James, All Star United have all wowed the crowd at Alton.

Our driving passion at Ultimate is to put on a great day which Christian young people would be proud to bring their friends. Over the years hundreds of young people have had their lives revolutionized at Alton as they have been impacted with the incredible message of Jesus for the first time.

2004 was a massive hit with three top acts from the USA, Superchick, Rock n Roll Worship Circus and Newsboys. We are currently working on putting together a great line up for 20th May 2006. Negotiations are taking place and we hope to bring you news soon.

As ever we will ensure that the gospel message will be clear, on point and the perfect drawstring to a day of ultimate rides, ultimate entertainment and ultimate truth.

To be honest I find massed "popular" Christian events intimidatind and somewhat disturbing.

It feels like 50% "pop" sellout and 50% stealth conversion.

However, most of the Christians I have met participate in wider society, I haven't met many Muslims, precisely because they don't, not where I live anyway.

[Tribesman]

Ok, who?

Where would you like to start ? Naradonya Volya ? Cape commandos ?Pancho Villa ? or do you want to go all the way back to the Sicarri and Zealots(though the latter did not have IEDs or firearms) .:book:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How about you go back to the first people that started setting roadside bombs, blowing up busses and generally causing mayhem without the need to actually physically be there at the time.

[Tribesman]

Wassup Wigferth , didn't your claims stand up to a moments scrutiny ?:no:
How about you go back to the first people that started setting roadside bombs, blowing up busses and generally causing mayhem without the need to actually physically be there at the time.
So now you want to talk timing devices and detonators , oops ...the russian anarchists beat the IRA to it again , would you like to try another claim ?
You aren't doing very well so far . :laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

the IRA also pioneered the murder of civilians and non-combatants, including children.

Without wanting to derail this thread any further, in refutation of the above inaccuracy, I shouldn't need to point out the enormous prior art contribution of the British Empire.

:book2:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wassup Wigferth , didn't your claims stand up to a moments scrutiny ?:no:

So now you want to talk timing devices and detonators , oops ...the russian anarchists beat the IRA to it again , would you like to try another claim ?
You aren't doing very well so far . :laugh4:

Why do you feel the need to be obnoxious?


How about you go back to the first people that started setting roadside bombs, blowing up busses and generally causing mayhem without the need to actually physically be there at the time.

This would be an attempt to define modern terrorism, therefore limiting claims of who started it.

I cannot be held resposible for being given faulty information, I shall now go away, do research and reach my own conclusions. This is what I always do when it would appear I have been proven wrong.

I have no problem being proven wrong, I do have a problem with being mocked, you don't need to laugh at people or taunt them. Certainly when they don't do the same to you.

May I suggest you consider whether you would address me in the same manner face to face because the man on the other side of this cable finds your attitude offensive.

[Slyspy]

Hear, hear Wigferth.

I find your points utterly inaccurate, but not a incorrect as Tribesman's attitude.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Slyspy, I get it.

I was wrong:oops:

How often do you see that in the backroom.