Patriotism

[Franconicus]

For a long time Germans had problems with patriotism.During the world championship they created a new form - partyotism.

What does patriotism stand for in your opinion?

[Keba]

Pride of one's heritage (culture).

That's about it, although, given that my family comes from all over Europe, my patriotism goes, first European, and only then goes the country of my bith (which accounts for only 1/4 of my family lines).

I never understood the football fans.

[Ianofsmeg16]

I am proud to be English, in a year I'll be an official Manx citizen, but I'm still going to call myself English. It's not that i dont like where i live, i love it, but i'm english and will always be english....

Despite our inability to take penalty kicks

[King Ragnar]

Im not English, Im British and am very very proud of it, but not of the culture it is now maybe some 50/60 years ago, now its just a Immigrant Haven and a Multi - Cultural hell hole, makes me sad to say it about our great Island but its true, we are going down because of a stupid government and its silly ideas about immigration and Asylumn Seekiing to this country.
And what makes it worse is that we are part of the EU, i have nothing against the Europeans, but we live on a Island and are not part of the Europe, but we still abide by some of the silly international laws.

[mercian billman]

For me patriotism has nothing to do with football (I always cheer for France). Patriotism is kind of like marriage, you may hate certain aspects about your wife, have arguments and threaten to get divorced, but in the end you stay together because no matter how much you argue there's still something inside of you that makes you come back.

[Mithras]

It's important to recall their is a differance between patriotism and nationalism Orwell summed it up quite well

"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality"

This sums it up. The easy way to tell the differance is to watch for the blokes who defend you're countries foul ups (hannity, Coulter) for the sake of it.

[Husar]

I actually like seeing those German flags everywhere.
And I enjoy it especially when I see turks or other immigrants with them because it´s a good sign that we can live together and they like the country they live in.
I think Patriotism should also show in how the country is presented to other people. That means keep it clean and stop vandalism like playing with a lighter in buses and trains, throwing your chewing gum onto the walkway and stuff like that. Who wants to be proud of a bunch of dirt? Also paying your taxes and serving the country, which means for politicians to try to be fair and make the people happy.

When other countries come to play then healthy patriotism for me means mostly making fun, when I mention Bismarck and say we owned the French several times, that´s just joking. I have nothing against the French, but I like some of the "achievements" of my country(though war is still not nice).

I think I have a very vague idea about it, but it´s mostly about peace and living in friendship, something that unites the people of a country and I´m at the same time a patriotic european because everything that makes people stick together and abandon war and greed is what I like.

The form of "my country first"-patriotism I don´t like, because it´s very selfish and usually ends in wars.:no:

[Joker85]

I would like to disagree with something that was said about nationalism. I take issue that it is somehow bad because it has a view of "my country first".

"my country first" is not always a negative. Do you care about your family more than a stranger on the street? I consider every one of my countrymen family in a way. Whatever happens to us, we're all in it together for better or worse. So it stands to logic that I care more about them than others. If I saw an American and non American in need and could only help one, I would chose the American without pause. If I could help them both I would gladly do so, but when it comes down to it, I care about my family, friends, and countrymen (in that order) more than I do about people who do not fit into that group.

Anyone who says otherwise is most likely a hypocrite. If what was going on in darfur was going on in your own nation, you would be in arms to fight it. So why havn't you snagged a rifle and headed off to the Sudan?

Now that doesn't mean I don't care about people who are not Americans. If a country like the UK or Australia was suddenly invaded, whether it affected the US or not I would feel obligated to assist them. I feel we had a duty to step in in Rwanda (and are shamed that we did not) and other places to end the mass killings there. So it's not that I don't care about others, it's just a matter of priority. I care about what happens to America more than I do most other nations (outside of a few very close friends).

[Divinus Arma]

This is actually a very good topic. My views on this have shifted dramatically in the last few years.

Previously, I would have said Proud to be an American, Proud of the military, proud of the culture and values, and so forth.



The only pride I have for America is in its value system component of the culture. This country was made great not by sports, the military, or even our culture (Baseball, Mom, and Apple Pie).

America was made great by the guiding principle that all men are equal. No man is better than another, and here their is equal opportunity for all. America lacks a nobility. Say what you will about wealth, no one truly believes that one is "superior" because of one's wealth. Granted, we may say people are more intelligent, more talented, or more capable, but noone sees another man as their better. The right to exist, to thrive, to pursue individual goals is spread equally. This vision of humanity is what makes our country great.

I concede that we do not always live up to our values. But it is the pursuit of perfection towards this end, done so as a people, which I am proud of. That is my patriotism. When America's values are corrupted so that this ideal is extinguished, then the true America dies.

I'm proud of our military, culture, etc, but these things are hollow without the soul of our nation. Corrupt the values, destroy the nation. And this is why I am a conservative.

[Quid]

I only have partiotic feelings during sporting events. So, although I chose the first option, other sports are included and not only football...call me superficial, eh?

Quid

[Husar]

I would like to disagree with something that was said about nationalism. I take issue that it is somehow bad because it has a view of "my country first".

I have to say I agree with the whole post(no need to wuote it all), I was thinking more along the lines of people saying: "Our country needs this or that, screw the others...", I could quote Panzer Jager now, but I don´t want to annoy Dariush any further.~;)

[GiantMonkeyMan]

i'm proud of englands football team (although often disappointed :laugh4: )
i'm proud of britains military (but not proud of how our military is used)
i'm proud of our semi-successful multi-culturism (but it is only semi-successful)

and overall i am proud to be british and english but i am not proud of some of things that i know we have done in the past

[Stormcrow]

It's silly to say "I'm proud to be an American/Frenchman/German/etc."

It's just the country you were born into. I'm no more proud to be born in this country than being born with 10 fingers.

I'm only proud of things I actually accomplished, not proud of things I had nothing to do with.

I do however feel that my country has certain values which other countries should have as well. If that's patriotism, so be it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

So it stands to logic that I care more about them than others. If I saw an American and non American in need and could only help one, I would chose the American without pause. If I could help them both I would gladly do so, but when it comes down to it, I care about my family, friends, and countrymen (in that order) more than I do about people who do not fit into that group.

I see what you are trying to say, and have some sympathy for the point of view. The problem is that it is very simplistic.

If the American was a known child molester, and the non-American a kindly nun, would your priorities change?

:inquisitive:

[Joker85]

I see what you are trying to say, and have some sympathy for the point of view. The problem is that it is very simplistic.

If the American was a known child molester, and the non-American a kindly nun, would your priorities change?

:inquisitive:

My post assumed all things were relatively equal. If one was a murderer/criminal then my religious and moral beliefs would trump any national camaraderie.

[Tribesman]

Patriotism....gah

[JAG]

I am respectful and proud of certain things in my country but that too extends to other nations and thus I don't really have much time for big patriotism. I support my national team but that does not mean I do not support other national teams. It all doesn't mean much to me really.

[Aenlic]

This is actually a very good topic. My views on this have shifted dramatically in the last few years.

Previously, I would have said Proud to be an American, Proud of the military, proud of the culture and values, and so forth.



The only pride I have for America is in its value system component of the culture. This country was made great not by sports, the military, or even our culture (Baseball, Mom, and Apple Pie).

America was made great by the guiding principle that all men are equal. No man is better than another, and here their is equal opportunity for all. America lacks a nobility. Say what you will about wealth, no one truly believes that one is "superior" because of one's wealth. Granted, we may say people are more intelligent, more talented, or more capable, but noone sees another man as their better. The right to exist, to thrive, to pursue individual goals is spread equally. This vision of humanity is what makes our country great.

I concede that we do not always live up to our values. But it is the pursuit of perfection towards this end, done so as a people, which I am proud of. That is my patriotism. When America's values are corrupted so that this ideal is extinguished, then the true America dies.

I'm proud of our military, culture, etc, but these things are hollow without the soul of our nation. Corrupt the values, destroy the nation. And this is why I am a conservative.

This is probably one of your best posts, Eclectic. Well said.

I agree 99.999%, the only problematic part for me being the last sentence; not because of the conservative part, but because there is a group of people, who are using the word without the content, currently in power doing their very best to destroy those principles which you so eloquently described - and all because they simply don't understand them. That make me sad.

But my hat is off to you, sir! :2thumbsup:

[Divinus Arma]

This is probably one of your best posts, Eclectic. Well said.

I agree 99.999%, the only problematic part for me being the last sentence; not because of the conservative part, but because there is a group of people, who are using the word without the content, currently in power doing their very best to destroy those principles which you so eloquently described - and all because they simply don't understand them. That make me sad.

But my hat is off to you, sir! :2thumbsup:

:bow: Thanks.

Those in power are a stripe of conservatism which I share little affection for. They are twisted breed ot be sure. The loss of the Presidents popularity comes not from the middle or the left, but from the base. So I will meet you in the middle and agree with you .001%, and thus we shall come to terms in agreement but this once, my angry Democrat sympathizer friend. ~D

[Aenlic]

:bow: Thanks.

Those in power are a stripe of conservatism which I share little affection for. They are twisted breed ot be sure. The loss of the Presidents popularity comes not from the middle or the left, but from the base. So I will meet you in the middle and agree with you .001%, and thus we shall come to terms in agreement but this once, my angry Democrat sympathizer friend. ~D

Heh. Although you might ask me sometime about my thoughts on the other bought and paid for party in American politics - the Democrats. There's a reason why I'm an anarchist. :wink:

[Divinus Arma]

That's even worse. Anarchy is unsustainable as a means of human organization of effort. The closest working public policy to anarchy is capitalism and free trade. In fact, I would go so far as to argue that capitalism would be the natural result of a "perfect anarchy"- one free from petty despotic rivalries that naturally occur in a lawless environment.

[Soulforged]

For one to be patriot one has to know what's the object of the patriotism, I don't know it. You tell me, but what about your people, well I don't know who "my people" are, what's my nation for instance...
So for me patriotism doesn't go beyond the national football team, in fact is the only mass moving event in the whole country. That's how I always felt patriotism.

[Tachikaze]

This is actually a very good topic. My views on this have shifted dramatically in the last few years.

Previously, I would have said Proud to be an American, Proud of the military, proud of the culture and values, and so forth.



The only pride I have for America is in its value system component of the culture. This country was made great not by sports, the military, or even our culture (Baseball, Mom, and Apple Pie).

America was made great by the guiding principle that all men are equal. No man is better than another, and here their is equal opportunity for all. America lacks a nobility. Say what you will about wealth, no one truly believes that one is "superior" because of one's wealth. Granted, we may say people are more intelligent, more talented, or more capable, but noone sees another man as their better. The right to exist, to thrive, to pursue individual goals is spread equally. This vision of humanity is what makes our country great.

I concede that we do not always live up to our values. But it is the pursuit of perfection towards this end, done so as a people, which I am proud of. That is my patriotism. When America's values are corrupted so that this ideal is extinguished, then the true America dies.

I'm proud of our military, culture, etc, but these things are hollow without the soul of our nation. Corrupt the values, destroy the nation. And this is why I am a conservative.
You said some good things here. I actually agree with part of the spirit of your post.

I was aware, however, that you are most likely not African-American.

[naut]

Patriotism is really pride, and sticking out the tough times of your country no matter the cost.

[Aenlic]

That's even worse. Anarchy is unsustainable as a means of human organization of effort. The closest working public policy to anarchy is capitalism and free trade. In fact, I would go so far as to argue that capitalism would be the natural result of a "perfect anarchy"- one free from petty despotic rivalries that naturally occur in a lawless environment.

The above is so utterly incorrect that I don't even know where to begin.

Read this Anarchist FAQ (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html), from front to back and all the appendices, and no cheating and skipping bits. Pay particular attention to sections C, D, F, H, I, and the first appendix. If you have any questions, get back to me and I'll try to answer them. Deal? Otherwise, we aren't arguing from a basic understanding of principles and definitions, and the misinformation and half-truths inherent in your post above will just get in the way of a meaningful discussion. :grin:

[Soulforged]

The above is so utterly incorrect that I don't even know where to begin.

Read this Anarchist FAQ (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html), from front to back and all the appendices, and no cheating and skipping bits. Pay particular attention to sections C, D, F, H, I, and the first appendix. If you have any questions, get back to me and I'll try to answer them. Deal? Otherwise, we aren't arguing from a basic understanding of principles and definitions, and the misinformation and half-truths inherent in your post above will just get in the way of a meaningful discussion. :grin:
Thanks Aenlic that site was awesome. I wish you would have posted it when everyone was questioning the merits of anarchism.:2thumbsup:

[AntiochusIII]

Hmm...I'm skeptical of anarchism as it clearly demands from humanity far more than other systems. The only truly major and self-contained example in the modern world which I have a decent, shallow amount of knowledge of, the Russian Revolution, displays a world far more stark and chaotic for my tastes...or my safety. Theoretically anarchism can claim to provide whatever it wills, a utopia, a democracy, a land of freedom and peace, a fraternity of mankind, but in practice the situation always was more-or-less catastrophic.

The Russian Revolution was a process of destruction, infighting, chaos, injustice (as what is to be considered a general "modern morality"), violence, oppression and re-centralization (ironically), and eventual fall into Bolshevik "proletarian dictatorship." It was a world of "us" and "them," and the outsiders of "us" were forced to live in constant danger and deprivation of "rights".

A few other examples like the Catalan experiment have too many outside factors to truly be discussed by amateurs (like me) as a self-contained historical example; the relative unity of the movement can be attributed to the necessity of the day in defense against various external enemies as much as a sense of brotherhood among themselves.
__________________________

Back to topic:

Patriotism often displays itself either in the form of mass expression, or simple pride, and therefore I often find myself quite skeptical of it also. Essentially it is a pride in belonging to a group, and since I am one of those few who abandoned the original "group" but fails to be truly assimilated into the new, I maintain a sort of freedom from such prideful emotions. To me an American's worth is no superior to any other's worth, as I feel no obligation to value the member of the group as a comrade of mine; and the flag is simply a symbol of the social and political group and not some holy expression to be utterly valued above my immediate interests. I am not willing to sacrifice myself for this group beyond what is reasonable to my own judgement.

:balloon2:

[Franconicus]

This is actually a very good topic. My views on this have shifted dramatically in the last few years.

Previously, I would have said Proud to be an American, Proud of the military, proud of the culture and values, and so forth.



The only pride I have for America is in its value system component of the culture. This country was made great not by sports, the military, or even our culture (Baseball, Mom, and Apple Pie).

America was made great by the guiding principle that all men are equal. No man is better than another, and here their is equal opportunity for all. America lacks a nobility. Say what you will about wealth, no one truly believes that one is "superior" because of one's wealth. Granted, we may say people are more intelligent, more talented, or more capable, but noone sees another man as their better. The right to exist, to thrive, to pursue individual goals is spread equally. This vision of humanity is what makes our country great.

I concede that we do not always live up to our values. But it is the pursuit of perfection towards this end, done so as a people, which I am proud of. That is my patriotism. When America's values are corrupted so that this ideal is extinguished, then the true America dies.

I'm proud of our military, culture, etc, but these things are hollow without the soul of our nation. Corrupt the values, destroy the nation. And this is why I am a conservative.
Eclectic,

You make me feel like being a conservative is not always bad! Thank you!!

[Zalmoxis]

meh, ill support the football team but unles my country has done something great for me, I refuse to do anything greater than that for it.

[English assassin]

Thanks Aenlic that site was awesome. I wish you would have posted it when everyone was questioning the merits of anarchism.

He did didn't he? Someone did anyway. They seem to have taken the discussion of medieval Iceland as an example (or not) of anarcho-capitalism off the site. Its an outrage.

[Aenlic]

He did didn't he? Someone did anyway. They seem to have taken the discussion of medieval Iceland as an example (or not) of anarcho-capitalism off the site. Its an outrage.

I'm pretty sure that I posted it about 6 months ago during a long protracted discussion with Gawain and a few others.

There's an older version of the FAQ still available on an older site, here (http://www.spunk.org/library/intro/faq/sp001547/index.html), version 8.1 which was updated in 2000, as opposed to the latest version 11.6 which I linked to earlier, updated just last May.

The section on medieval Iceland is F.9 in the older FAQ. I imagine they took it out because of a huge fight that developed between an "anarcho-capitalist" named Brian Caplan, who posts his own "FAQ" of Anarchism with a surprisingly similar look to it (i.e. the bugger plagiarized half the FAQ and made it look exactly like older versions of the real FAQ) . I won't post a link because it'll confuse people. A bitter struggle went on for a while on various usenet groups arguing whether Iceland was or wasn't anarcho-capitalist and even went so far as to question if Iceland should be included at all as a valid example of anything since our knowledge of the exact nature of Icelandic society of the time depends solely on archaeology and the Sagas.

[English assassin]

The section on medieval Iceland is F.9 in the older FAQ. I imagine they took it out because of a huge fight that developed between an "anarcho-capitalist" named Brian Caplan, who posts his own "FAQ" of Anarchism with a surprisingly similar look to it (i.e. the bugger plagiarized half the FAQ and made it look exactly like older versions of the real FAQ) . I won't post a link because it'll confuse people. A bitter struggle went on for a while on various usenet groups arguing whether Iceland was or wasn't anarcho-capitalist and even went so far as to question if Iceland should be included at all as a valid example of anything since our knowledge of the exact nature of Icelandic society of the time depends solely on archaeology and the Sagas.

Well, that's anarchists for you. :rolleyes2:

Sorry, couldn't resist. I printed the Iceland section last time around and still have it, but thanks for the explanation of why it went. I am sure Egil Skallagrimson would be pleased to know he is still provoking conflict 1000 years down the line.

[Aenlic]

Well, that's anarchists for you. :rolleyes2:

Sorry, couldn't resist. I printed the Iceland section last time around and still have it, but thanks for the explanation of why it went. I am sure Egil Skallagrimson would be pleased to know he is still provoking conflict 1000 years down the line.

Heh. Well you know, those Vikings have a way of sticking around in fame and legend. There's even a Viking Fence Co. here in Austin, Texas. What their sign, a fur-clad, sword-wielding, shield-bearing bearded guy blowing a big auroch's horn, has to do with fences in the tropical heat of Texas is beyond me. :grin: Crazy Texans.

[Soulforged]

He did didn't he? Someone did anyway. They seem to have taken the discussion of medieval Iceland as an example (or not) of anarcho-capitalism off the site. Its an outrage.
That time GC iniciated a thread with a link to wikipedia about anarcho-capitalism. The discussion then turned into the merits of anarchism (Red and others poped up, and as usual it started to mess up towards the end). But Aenlic left the thread early, I presume it was because there was a general failure to recognize why attempted anarchism failed, atributing it to an inherent grave mistake of the system and not to external influences. For whatever it was he never posted this link that time, and it's very complete.

[Aenlic]

That time GC iniciated a thread with a link to wikipedia about anarcho-capitalism. The discussion then turned into the merits of anarchism (Red and others poped up, and as usual it started to mess up towards the end). But Aenlic left the thread early, I presume it was because there was a general failure to recognize why attempted anarchism failed, atributing it to an inherent grave mistake of the system and not to external influences. For whatever it was he never posted this link that time, and it's very complete.

Good recall there, Soulforged! I've posted that link in so many different places, that I guess I just assumed I had posted it here as well. I think that might have been right around the time someone here questioned my status as a disabled vet in another thread. Since it happened on the same day I had jammed the stump of what's left of one of my fingers and was still in pain, I went ballistic and left not just the backroom, but the Org altogether for a while. We can't be rational all the time. :grin:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Previously, I would have said Proud to be an American, Proud of the military, proud of the culture and values, and so forth.


The only pride I have for America is in its value system component of the culture. This country was made great not by sports, the military, or even our culture (Baseball, Mom, and Apple Pie).

America was made great by the guiding principle that all men are equal. No man is better than another, and here their is equal opportunity for all. America lacks a nobility. Say what you will about wealth, no one truly believes that one is "superior" because of one's wealth. Granted, we may say people are more intelligent, more talented, or more capable, but noone sees another man as their better. The right to exist, to thrive, to pursue individual goals is spread equally. This vision of humanity is what makes our country great.

I concede that we do not always live up to our values. But it is the pursuit of perfection towards this end, done so as a people, which I am proud of. That is my patriotism. When America's values are corrupted so that this ideal is extinguished, then the true America dies.
I'm proud of our military, culture, etc, but these things are hollow without the soul of our nation. Corrupt the values, destroy the nation. And this is why I am a conservative.Great post, DA! But, the above is why I love America and dislike its conservatism. :sorry: