The Great Armada

[Nikpalj]

I don't have net acces at home (using public comps) and I really don't have time to search for this, so I thought I could ask some of you guys:

on which date, exactly did the Spanish great armada sail out, and (if it is known) on which had it been destroyed by that hurricane or whatwasit?

Would appreciate a direct answer if anybody knows or a link. Thank you!

[King Kurt]

Try this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_armada

You can't beat Wikpedia.:2thumbsup:

[matteus the inbred]

I think Nikpalj wanted us to do the research for him cos he has no internet access or time! Normally I charge huge sums of money and demand free M&Ms for stuff like this (no blue ones though), but as KK has kindly done the work for me I'll just cut'n'paste:

"On May 28, 1588, the Armada, with 131 ships and 35,000 men, began to set sail from Lisbon heading for the English Channel...It took until May 30 for all ships to leave port...the Armada, having been delayed by bad weather, was not sighted until July 19. This occurred off The Lizard, Cornwall, but a sequence of beacons had been constructed the length of the south coast of England, so that the news was known in London within two days. The Armada followed the coast as far as Plymouth, where the 55 ships of the English fleet had set sail on the night of the 19th."
<synopsis> The fireship attacks at Calais took place on the 27th/28th July, the English fleet attacked at Gravelines (Battle of Gravelines) on the 29th, and finally ceased pursuit on the 12th August as the northerly winds drove the Armada out of the Channel. The weather had begun to worsen from about the 4th August. During the following weeks storms scattered the Armada and only 67 ships and 10,000 men got back to Spain. The storms are thought to have been unusually strong. I cannot find a source that gives exact dates for the storms, but I have found a map at http://www.historyonthenet.com/Tudors/spanish_armada.htm which places the Armada north of Scotland on 21st-24th August.
Hope this is ok.

[Nikpalj]

Why, thank you very much guys... that's exactly what I needed. At the places I have searched for this, there were no exact dates. And at the place where I live in Europe (don't ask) in our town library we have P2' on about 300Mhz somewhere from around 1998 so opening up new net pages is a nightmare...

You have only an hour on these comps so you don't have proper time to research anything, just download what you're interested in to floppy disks - I spent an hour trying to find this info and when I got home I found out that there were no proper dates in any of the materials I had downloaded, only the years. As I don't have net at home, I didn't even remember to Wiki this.

So thanks again, I'll find a way to mail you those M&M's, promise - you earned them... ;)

[matteus the inbred]

:bow:
anytime

[King of Atlantis]

Reading the title I thought this was about the Byzantine Armada that was sent to crush the vandals. :(

As it is not I guess I can say this with some relevance. The Byzantine Armada was destroyed in very similiar ways as the Spanish. They had limited mobility and the smaller force took advantage of it by using fire ships. The fire ships would have much the same effect on both armadas.

[ChewieTobbacca]

Now you want to talk about a great fleet that never met its end in battle but was the greatest fleet..

Zheng He's fleet had over 30,000 mean, over 300 ships (some ships many times larger than the lragest of European ships of the same era), and sailed the world's oceans (somehow keeping together in the dark of night, something we still can't figure out how they did it) and literally overnight, was sent back to China and dismantled when it had the potential to have traveled around the world and shape history like no other.

[Romanus]

Wasn't the biggest problem with the spanish Armada that it was actually their mediterranean fleet? I remember reading somewhere that their whole atlantic fleet was in dock because it wasn't in any condition to sail. It would explain a lot of the problems the spanish faced as atlantic sea conditions are lot different then a mediterranean conditions.

[Kraxis]

They had a large number of galleys and other ships that were rather unsuited for atlantic warfare. But the majority were indeed the large and rather seaworthy galleons. There is, however, truth to the notion that many of their ships were not ready initially. But the operation was 'just' postponed (there was quite a stirring in the royal quaters of course) until they got fixed.

The main problem for the Spanish can be said to be their doctrine for naval warfare.
Galleons were hardy ships. Strong hulls, tall towers and a wide body. Perfect for boarding and carrying lots of troops for said boarding. Hence the Spanish wanted to use their ships in that manner.
The doctrine said that the galleon should come alongside it's enemy, give it a single devastating broadside, then board. That would play perfectly into the strengths of the galleon.

The English had however designed a lighter, faster and more maneuverable galleon, the Fast Galleon (relative term though). This ship had a much lower freeboard, and not such much in terms of towers (also called castles, as in forecastle as that part of the ship is still called). They were practically designed to fight gunbattles against galleons. And English doctrine showed this, as they should NOT seek to board, but rather pummel their enemy to pieces.
Also the Fast Galleon carried a much more uniform armament, amking her much easier to control once in battle, the captain would know more or less when he could expect a broadside to be ready ect ect.

It is also a bit of a myth that the victory was an upset. Perhaps it was so for the people there at the time, but the English actually held an advantage in number of guns, quality of guns and in training.

Now what happens when a faster more nimble enemy does not want to get caught? He stays uncaught. Meanwhile he can lash out at the slower brute, who does not even try to hit back for fear of losing the allpowerful single broadside (Spanish loading could take as long as 15 minutes).
So teh English ships had more or less free reign to blast the Spanish ships from afar. But the galleon is a as mentioned a sturdy design and only few ships actually fell to this prior to the fireships. But still, if the English had cooperated better (the sole area where the Spanish seem to have had an advantage), they could have devastated two of the Spanish squadrons, which would have ended the campaign right there.

[Spino]

Some years ago someone here in the Org made a reference to a documentary about the defeat of the Spanish Armada. According to the records very few English ships were 'hulled' or penetrated by Spanish cannonballs that found their mark. After examining some cannonballs which were dredged up from the Channel's bottom it was shown that Spanish shot was of much poorer quality than the shot used by the English. Can anyone here provide more information on this aspect of the conflict?

The shot quality issue reminds me of the problem facing America's navies in the war of 1812 where shot of varying quality lowered the overall efficiency of the US Navy's gun crews. This drew a stark contrast to the quality of American guns which were actually quite good, especially the 24lb 'Long Guns' made famous by our Constellation class frigates.

[cunctator]

The shot quality issue reminds me of the problem facing America's navies in the war of 1812 where shot of varying quality lowered the overall efficiency of the US Navy's gun crews. This drew a stark contrast to the quality of American guns which were actually quite good, especially the 24lb 'Long Guns' made famous by our Constellation class frigates.

What kind of problems did they face with their shots? Variation in weight/diameter or overall material quality? They were still able to badly outgun the Royal Navy with what they had.

[Kraxis]

Their guns ranged from bad to average quality with a few of very good quality. That alone is bad.
Then there is their shots, which were even worse. Some were even made of stone rather than metal.
Finally their guns were of highly varying size, even on the same gundeck, making it a pain to get new shots, adding to the already lousy reloadtimes.
All this wasn't too much of a problem when your doctrine is to get alongside the enemy, blast him once at point blank range and then board.
But when the enemy refuses to get boarded, then you are in trouble as you can't respond in kind.

The English actually had an advantage in numbers of guns as well.

So when I look at it today, I can hardly imagine the Armada actually winning a battle. At best it could sustain the English damage (those galleons were tough ships) and push through to England with the troops.
The only reason I can see that the English didn't punish the Armada even more was because they were slightly too timid and had a fairly bad coordination (too many gloryhounds and too much bickering).