Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

[King Henry V]

As per request, I have made you guys a forum at www.medievaltw.com.

[kataphraktoi]

1) it appear that you have removed America (good decision) in order to allow greater faction variety in eurasia, if you do get 30 factions to play with how far will you extend the game eastwards? it would be cool to have some of the more notable eastern empires/kingdoms.

2) RTW:BI apparently introduced some sophistication to the religious mechanics that allowed modders to simulate religious schisms, how sophisticated do you believe you can be with making the shia faction/s display as more than just heretics? will you consider a reformation event in the 15th century.

3) some RTW modders managed to create a four season year from the standard two seasons, given how unpopular the M2:TW time mechanics have proved with fans do you intend to implement somethings similar to a fixed multi season year for time passing?

1) depends on province limit, and so far, the province limit has meant we can't really expanded that much east.

2) well, it seems the hardcode won't allow a distinct SHia religious identity so we have to subsume it under heretics, however, there will be a distinct Shia tech tree for Shia factions like the Egyptians early on with an option for turning to Sunni Islam. There are implications for this but I'd rather not say now. Its not because of any secrets, but rather, its just that we haven't planned that much on this issue as yet.

3) Most likely, yes.

[JR-]

1) depends on province limit, and so far, the province limit has meant we can't really expanded that much east.

2) well, it seems the hardcode won't allow a distinct SHia religious identity so we have to subsume it under heretics, however, there will be a distinct Shia tech tree for Shia factions like the Egyptians early on with an option for turning to Sunni Islam. There are implications for this but I'd rather not say now. Its not because of any secrets, but rather, its just that we haven't planned that much on this issue as yet.

3) Most likely, yes.

many thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, if i may distract you just a moment more:

1) what are the province limits? are they like the faction limits in that you hope for 30 but plan for 21?

2) is there any plan to allow for certain western euro nations and england to break away in a reformation event?

3) is there any preference at this stage for a two season or four season year?

regards

PG tips

[kataphraktoi]

1) what are the province limits? are they like the faction limits in that you hope for 30 but plan for 21?

2) is there any plan to allow for certain western euro nations and england to break away in a reformation event?

3) is there any preference at this stage for a two season or four season year?

1) 199 plus sea

2) mod only goes up to 1453 and maybe 1492

3) we haven't thought about it, the 4 season year is my personal preference.

[polak966]

i thought the province limit turned out to be higher

[kataphraktoi]

apparently they confused 255 with province limit, it turns out 255 is the model limit for units, not provinces.

Hi guys, good news, we have our own dev forum at www.twcenter.net !!!

But now the question is this....what about the password?

PM me.

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Hello everyone!

Great concept arts! If any of you are nearly goos to 3d moddeling as making that concept art, than this mod is going to kick ass!

Anyway, I will be lurking here from time to time ;)

[Victor_cel_mare]

Pls can i play with some faction,when the game is released?

[kataphraktoi]

I was browsing through my old M:TW modding files and came across some work I made for a mod. Perhaps it is usefull for you, mostly 15th century though. (the greens and purples are because of M:TWs faction colouring)

Lol, I forgot to thank you Duke John for ur pics :2thumbsup: They look great!!

I suppose you're already in a modding project? :embarassed:

[McFloit]

Great work! :2thumbsup:
The mod will become amazing with so many ambitious and hard-working people behind it. All these ideas and proposals, incredible. I am thinking about becoming a researcher as well... but it seems you have enough, haven't you?! Otherwise I could do some research about the HRE e.g. Let me know when you need someone for something like that, i am a only a student but i am massivly interested in medieval history. :book:

[kataphraktoi]

Great work!
The mod will become amazing with so many ambitious and hard-working people behind it. All these ideas and proposals, incredible. I am thinking about becoming a researcher as well... but it seems you have enough, haven't you?! Otherwise I could do some research about the HRE e.g. Let me know when you need someone for something like that, i am a only a student but i am massivly interested in medieval history.

Specify which faction you want to research for.

If you want to research for HRE, PM cutepuppy and SabreHRE.

Attention all members, latest version of research template and important accompanying notes for them. Its a must read!!

Will be posting a partial unit list for the Byzantines on the developer's forum. :2thumbsup:

[SaberHRE]

Great work! :2thumbsup:
The mod will become amazing with so many ambitious and hard-working people behind it. All these ideas and proposals, incredible. I am thinking about becoming a researcher as well... but it seems you have enough, haven't you?! Otherwise I could do some research about the HRE e.g. Let me know when you need someone for something like that, i am a only a student but i am massivly interested in medieval history. :book:
Welcome to the Team!

Kataphraktoi, a question. As a military researcher for HRE i've decided to limit the "special" unique units of HRE for early and high to 2 maybe 3. Need to know your attitude about that. The reason for this huge reduction, is the fact that, for example i don't recognise some units(such as alledged Thurngian archers), as special units. Some regions were famed of their military. Franconia was known for her knights, fine, but that doesn't give her a special Franconian Knights Unit. So would'ya think about it?

[kataphraktoi]

Kataphraktoi, a question. As a military researcher for HRE i've decided to limit the "special" unique units of HRE for early and high to 2 maybe 3. Need to know your attitude about that. The reason for this huge reduction, is the fact that, for example i don't recognise some units(such as alledged Thurngian archers), as special units. Some regions were famed of their military. Franconia was known for her knights, fine, but that doesn't give her a special Franconian Knights Unit. So would'ya think about it?

My opinion is that you should identify as many units as possible, but not because of implementing every single unit, but rather to give us the flexibility and choice to pick and choose which ones are appropiate when the time comes for developing the unit lists. I agree, if a region is famed for certain units, I don't think there should be a unit named after the region unless there is a strong historical basis which names them as "Franconian Knights unit".
Moreover, we may script advantages for certain regions or something like that.

SabreHRE do u have the password for TWC?

[Cadmus]

Hi there to all. How's work progressing? Only a couple of months and a new horizon will rise.
Oh, and check this. I don't know what I did to distress CA and give us this :p
http://pc.ign.com/articles/731/731089p1.html
Anyway, there timeline starts later, as such some units they included I've not found yet, but I'll check with my professor when lessons start again.
And so it seems they are keeping the eras, but in another way, so I'm very curious. They start with Princes, then they have Tsars (unless they have already a Tsar included from the start, and Prince Vladimir is his son, the son from Vsevolod as mentioned and as history tells us).

Успеха!

[SaberHRE]

kataphraktoi yes i do have an account and password for TWC why do you ask?

[SaberHRE]

ohh... I just seen the thread on TWC. No i haven't got the password yet.

Why is there no edit option? :laugh4:

[Cebei]

Hello, your Turkish researcher has returned from vacation. Can somebody give me a link to the discussion forum of this mod? Or are we continuing from here? :juggle2:

[polak966]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=225

[Orb]

Um - The 'close ties' the Fatimids had with the Hashishin were that the Hashishin spent their time killing off the Egyptian noteables (I think Shahanshah's death was attributed to the Hashishin).

The Hashishin were a Nizari cult (from the older brother of Caliph Ahmad al-Musta'li, who was deposed in favour of the latter). An-Nizar rebelled and was defeated, Hassan i-Sabah (I think) fled to Iran and began mustering armies, murdering Sunnites and Shi'ites and spreading Nizarism.

[Randarkmaan]

Hmm... The Hashishin were Ismaili shia-muslims just as the Fatimids and as far as I know most of their murders where carried out agaisnt the Abbasids of Baghdad...
However I don't know that much about them, so you're probably right...
Oh, and I said "perhaps"

[Orb]

The Hashishin were Nizaris, the Fatimids weren't - the Nizaris killed both al-Afdal Shahanshah, after whose death the Egyptian government collapsed and the last 'real' Caliph nine years later. Yes, most of their murders were against Sunnites, primarily due to geographical location.

Yes, I know you said 'perhaps' but I was just clarifying. I've done a lot of research on this for 12th Century Glory (in the sig.).

[kataphraktoi]

MTR members please make ur opinions heard at the twcenter dev forums ..thannks.

[cutepuppy]

MTR members please make ur opinions heard at the twcenter dev forums ..thannks.

don't they need a password?
btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.

[kataphraktoi]

:2thumbsup: Check ur PM cutepuppy


btw, do you have researchers for France? I think I can spent a bit more of my free time on research.

sure :2thumbsup:

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.

[kataphraktoi]

how about including the teutonic order, knights hospitaler, and persia ( khwarezm, ilkhans, timurids ) as independant factions.

Not too sure about Teutonic Orders and Knights Hospitallers, not becayse we don't want it, but beca\use we're trying to figure out how to integrate them!!

As for Khwarezmians, Ilkhanids, Timurids, they will be scripted spawns. Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...

https://img366.imageshack.us/img366/166/basilikostagmatahippeiarchonly7.jpg

Basilikos Tagmatikoi Hippeis Senior officer :2thumbsup:

Its a mace in his hand, but I guess he's pretending its a make believe mace :laugh4:

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I think venice is superfluous as a faction. perhaps you can reconsider venice as a faction.
venice was economically powerful but not very aggressive militarily aside from providing ships for crusaders.
if anything , venice and the papal states should be scripted events, much like the senate gave missions.
if there is a 'horde' style of faction then the teutonic order and knights hospitaler should be like this.
for example the knights hospitaler started out in jerusalem moved to cyprus then rhodes then malta. don't forget they were the most active against the mamlukes then the ottomans in the mediterranean. they even fought against timur.
The teutonic order for its part started in the holy land then moved to hungary and after to prussia where they warred independantly of the HRE against Poland, Lithuania, and Novgorod.

Persia would help balance out power in the middle east. After Genghis Khan destroyed Khwarezm the khwarezmians were a free mercenary company employed by the muslim states in the near east (another ' horde ' faction).

Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.

[Cebei]

Could someone check out the Turkish faction thread at the main developer forum? :book:

[Denizar]

I have a good background on Ottoman history, but the Turks here are Seljuk Turks am I right? If not, I would like to contribute to this mod with my knowledge on the Ottomans.

[Cebei]

I have a good background on Ottoman history, but the Turks here are Seljuk Turks am I right? If not, I would like to contribute to this mod with my knowledge on the Ottomans.

As we couldn't put in two seperate Seljuk and Ottoman Empires, we have a single "Turkish Sultanate". Ottoman units come in after 1320, but we have both Seljuk and Ottoman units.

As for the help, there really is a high number of people offering help. While this is a really good thing, the research gets extremely difficult to manage when a lot of people are doing the samething. Besides the research is almost finished.

I will post the results here, so that everybody can offer their thoughts. The findings are totally open to suggestions.

[kataphraktoi]

Anyhow please consider. neglected areas of the map are scandinavia, eastern europe and the middle east. italy and iberia seem to be overrepresented.

They're no neglected they'll be represented by independent factions with their own unique units. People just don't understand, we have faction limits, unit limits and province limits. We can't just add anything that we'd like to.

Please specifiy how and why Italy and Iberia are overrepresented?

And Venice will be retained as they are no maritime empires in our faction list except them.

Cebei is responsible for the Turkish faction, all Turanian (:D) matters are to be referred to him. I trust him in all matters.

[Orda Khan]

A few more concepts...
Mongol Faction Leader, Heir and Tuq Standard.
https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/517/animation01ez0.th.jpg (https://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=animation01ez0.jpg)
Mongol Khan.
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4028/animation03ax7.th.jpg (https://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=animation03ax7.jpg)
Just an idea.
https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7006/khaninskyjq7.th.jpg (https://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khaninskyjq7.jpg)

........Orda

[kataphraktoi]

Excitement overload....gone to take medicine ^^

[DukeofSerbia]

MTR members please make ur opinions heard at the twcenter dev forums ..thannks.

And how to enter without password?:help:

[King of Atlantis]

Ilkhanids and Timurids will be treated as internal conflicts within the Mongol faction which was true...

Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.

[kataphraktoi]

Not at all. The Ilkhanids were not an internal conflict of the Golden Horde, they were simply the khanate formed by Hulegu's conquests, while the Golden Horde was an extension of the Ulus of Jochi. The Timurids were not even really mongols, nor did he conquer mongols. The Ilkhanate had already fallen into dissary and the local people had regained their sovernity. I really dont see how either the Ilkhanate or Timurids are internal conflicts in the Mongol faction, with special emphasis on the Timurids.

I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.

The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate. Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China. Timur's machinations were within the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire. His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

kataphractoi i did not mean to offend.
i appreciate the fact that i can voice my opinion.

here are some nifty maps

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm


in 1100 there are 8 russian states of which only 1 will be included in the game.
in 1200 there are 3 scandinavian states pomerania and pomerelia are independant duchies, only denmark is included as a faction.
in 1400 the teutonic knights have large territories in the baltic, they were involved in most of the conflicts against russia, poland, and the heathen balts, not the HRE.

you can see that the papla states and venice have not expanded much from 1100 to 1400, the venetians and papacy should in my opinion be like the senate missions in rome tw, this reflects what happened during the 6th crusade and so forth.

the spanish reconquista was the most important conflict in iberia during the period, 2 factions are necessary to reflect this the moors and castile-leon.


conversely alexander nevsky's novgorod fought the swedes, danes and teutonic knights. of which only denmark is included as a faction.

there are a multitude of independant states in the middle east

[kataphraktoi]

Emerging factions are not playable factions, so we only have one unplayable faction in the Mongols.

Venice represents a very unique faction in that it is maritime empire compared to other factions. We want this uniqueness. IN fact, some province boundaries on our map takes Venice into consideration by allowing small enclaves for Venice to conquer and hold and try its luck in ruling a rich maritime empire.

[DukeofSerbia]

Emerging factions are not playable factions, so we only have one unplayable faction in the Mongols.


And Papal State?

[Orda Khan]

How many times has the question been posed, in the Org forums, not to mention anywhere else; "Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?"
Then CA choose to release two games, both covering the same period and in both games the Mongols are non playable. How lame is that?

......Orda

[Mac Clan]

Hey, I'm an avid scholar of history, as well as an avid player of the TW series. I have played the realism mods and was impressed (very much so), so I decided I wanted to be a historical advisor to the M2TR team. I am Scottish and study medieval, ancient, and imperial forms of war, as well as weapons and armor, unique to time periods, eras, nations, and states.
I also study Scottish history and warfare, as well as Byzantine (my two medieval nations I put a lot of attention to), which are both elusive on information about their warfare, which leads to a lot of misconceptions in games (like M2TW making the Scots like Braveheart's bunch of morons).
So mainly, this is an application to work on the mod and be an advisor.

So yes, I did copy paste that, but I wanted to repost, exactly in those terms so there'd be no confusion.
In short, I mainly want to help advise on the Scottish and British/Irish civilizations, as well as the Byzantines. I do have a hoard of knowledge, but since other historians here might be more concentrated in that area, I'd like to help on the lesser known and explored civilizations.
My msn:beepersandbopers@hotmail.com
My email: beepersandbopers@yahoo.com
Thanks,
Mac

[King of Atlantis]

I said internal conflicts within the Mongol faction, not the Golden Horde. The Ilkanids was a khanate within the Mongol faction, we will script an internal conflict between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate within the Mongol Faction. Remember, there is no Golden Horde faction, it is the Mongol Faction which includes the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanids.
Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.


The Timurids were from the Barlas Mongol tribe which were heavily Turkicised and the fact the Timur used the Chagatai Mongols and fought the Golden Horde Khanate.
Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.


Timur claimed himself as a successor of Chingis Khan and sought to emulate this by attempting to invade CHina but died on the way to invading Ming China.

Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.

Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict.


His actions brought the weakness of the Chagatai Khanate
The Khanate was already split in two with both sides extremely hostile towards eachother at the time of Temur's birth. His actions instead was a movement that nearly reunited the former Mongol Empire, however this time with an entirely different ruling elite.


and the theoretical polity of the Mongol Empire to its fruition and hence the internal conflict.

I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.

Read this,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=68590
I find it hard to explain why Temur was not an internal conflict, because well he simply wasnt. Perhaps my narrative on him will help explain the situation better.

[kataphraktoi]

Well that just seems odd. By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.

Hence my comment that the Mongol faction was a theoretical polity eventually torn apart by real political infighting.


Temur had very little Mongol roots. So little that he had to use a puppet Chagatai ruler during his reign because due to his descent he could never be a khan. He fought the Golden Horde yes, but I dont understand how that makes him a mongol? His armies which were largely of sedintary peoples conquered Persia, and made short work of all the middle eastern nations. He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde. With the Ulus of Jochi united he would then raid Temur's lands, because well frankly he had nowhere else to go.
So yes he was a native of the Chatagatay Ulus, however he was not a Chatagay and he fought the Horde, but only because he had an ambitious neighbor. None of these things make him a mongol, or his empire a mongol one.

Being a Barlas Mongol does not constitute a Mongol albeit a heavily Turkicised one? But perhaps I didn't clarify it well enough. I see Timur's wars not as a civil war, but as an internal conflict first inside the Chagatai Khanate and which later spread into a conflict with another Mongol state as an external conflict.

As for the Ilkhanids and GH, I see it differently than Timur's wars.


Claimed himself Timur Gurgan, son in law of the Khan, because one of his wife's Genghisid descent was the closest he could get to any tie with Genghis. He did make his way to China however that is after there was nowhere else to go. The relativly poor lands of Europe were simply unacceptable as conquests for a man who had defeated Bayezid, Tecumesh, and all the other indepedent rulers of the mideast.

Regardless, emulating yourself after a powerful leader still does not make this an internal conflict. \

My fault for clarifying it as an internal (treasonous) conflict within the Chagatai Khanate


I still dont understand. He was not a Mongol, his armies weren't mongols, and he fought mainly persians who had Persian leaders with slight mongol ancestory. The Ilkhanate, Chatagay Khanate, Goldern Horde, and Yuan Dynasty were all alreayd fallen before Temur, I fail to see how he can be classified as part of them.

In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.

[Ringeck]

How many times has the question been posed, in the Org forums, not to mention anywhere else; "Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?"

Let's not go there :help:



Then CA choose to release two games, both covering the same period and in both games the Mongols are non playable. How lame is that?


Well, the Golden Horde was playable in the MTW late campaign, if I recall correctly? And they had a battle series campaign. It is simply the matter of appearing factions - you can't play the mongols if they appear mid-game. Since CA has decided there will be no high or late campaign, there will be no playable mongols.

[Orda Khan]

Since CA has decided there will be no high or late campaign, there will be no playable mongols.
My point just highlights the fact that eras should be in the campaign.


By the time the Ilkhanate was established there really was no "mongol faction". Ogodei would excert some control over his fellows, but certainly after him the mongol Empire would be divided into seperate Khanates that were only similiar in culture. I really dont see how these are internal conflicts. The wars between the Horde and Ilkhanate were wars between two fully seperate entities that were in no way two parts of the same body.
Well, it was Mangku who unleashed Hulegu on what would eventually become the formation of the Ilkhanate, though each house was expected to provide troops for the invasion force, this included the Jochid house. We can discount from this point, 1251, both Chagadai and Ogodei holdings as their independent princes were executed during the great purge.
There was friction between the Golden Horde and the soon-to-be-Ilkhanate very early and this was due to Hulegu's actions in annexing land at the southern Caucasus region, land that the Golden Horde saw as theirs by right. This was further aggrevated by Berke's allegiance with the Mamluks and Hulegu's treacherous execution of the Jochid princes present within his forces.
I quite see Kataphraktoi's reasoning and let's remember certain things about the game will require a little poetic licence to achieve something like accuracy. The hostilities between these two did in fact start before the Ilkhanate were established. Berke recalled his troops, many of which returned to Mamluk ranks and some became the later known Qaraunas. These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.

He only fought the Golden Horde because he was invaded by them first. He had supported Tecumesh to fight the Khan of the White Horde, Tecumesh was too succesful reunited the entire golden horde.
Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was not

.......Orda

[kataphraktoi]

:laugh4: I'll defer to Orda Khan on this matter, I'm out of my league with Steppe armies :laugh4:

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod!:laugh4: Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!:laugh4:

[DukeofSerbia]

My point just highlights the fact that eras should be in the campaign.

.......Orda

Agree. Without eras we will have units in XI century which had nothing with this century,:laugh4: like gunpowder units.

[DukeofSerbia]

Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod!:laugh4: Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!:laugh4:

Good for you...:laugh4: I am general warned (not via PM) after my first post out of developer subforum. :dizzy2: I will keep my comments about moderators from TWC (btw they are not nearly good as they ate hear)...

[King of Atlantis]

These hostilities hampered both sides and having the Ilkhanate appear as an internal conflict is a fairly adequate way to depict the events.
except it negates the fact that they were acting as two individual factions, well within the time period.


Timur meddled with White Horde politics, he helped the naive Toqtamish attain a position of power, something he had failed to do alone. When he contested rule he had been decisively beaten by Urus. Once Urus had died the task was easier, for both Toqtamish and Timur. Toqtamish was no master strategist and took full advantage of the anarchy within the Golden Horde to defeat Mamai ( who had recently been defeated at Kulikovo ) and unite both Hordes. He improved his battlefield knowledge and reversed the Muscovite victory. Perhaps beginning to believe in his ability he thought he was a match for his mentor, which he was not

Yes im aware of all this and agree 100%. However what does it contest that I said? Or were you simply expanding upon what I had said?


In practical terms I agree, but in ideological terms Timur saw it differently.
lets not get things confused. As any leader, Temur needed legitamacy. The best way to do this was marrying someone of Genghis descent and claiming himself the guardian of the line, Temur Gurgan. Very similiar to how Napolean would visit Aachen and view himself as the heir to Charlemagne.

Temur was a militaristic despot who's only real doctrine was that of conquest. Despite any ties with the Mongols or not he wanted to conquer and do as much of it as possible. His whole power became to depend on it. So I dont think Temur should be regarded as a ideological leader, more so simply a man who had an inner drive to conquer that was aided by many outside factors that made it practical to conquer.

[Mac Clan]

I hate to be the drama queen, but I haven't got a response yet, and I have access and am a 'fluent" in medieval Scottish and Irish military history,and Byzantine warfare. (Believe it or not, but none of the troops actualy wore purple except a few Imperial Household horsemen!) and I would like to have a hand in it all.
Thanks again.

[kataphraktoi]

Hey I got banned from TWC (for a day) for sticking up for your mod! Can't say I care though - I accidently called someone a bad word but quite frankly he deserved it!

Lol, I was actually thinking is BKB the Blind King of Bohemia too?? !! :laugh4:

Cheers man, as modders we understand the pressure of disgruntled people out there. :2thumbsup:

[Orda Khan]

except it negates the fact that they were acting as two individual factions, well within the time period.
However, as I suggested, it is an adequate way of achieving something close to the events. Nobody said it was perfect, I just happen to think it better than having no Ilkhanate presence and since there were hostilities, this way will at least reflect that.

Yes im aware of all this and agree 100%. However what does it contest that I said? Or were you simply expanding upon what I had said?Expanding really. Neither Timur nor his prodege possessed the ability to destabilise the White Horde while Urus was alive. Toqtamish began his military career quite miserably, suffering defeat on more than one occasion. When Urus died there were at least, blood claimants to the throne which is very different to the state of affairs with the Golden Horde. At that time, with Batu's line extinct and after Nogai had done much to unsettle things, Mamai had set himself up as self proclaimed ruler. He was defeated at Kulikovo, an obvious blow to morale and even while he regrouped, Toqtamish took advantage of his weak position. At least Toqtamish was Jochid by decent even if he was not the proclaimed heir, or had relied upon Timur for his position; his defeat of Mamai and subsequent uniting of both 'Hordes' would probably have been readily accepted by the masses as a means of stability and hence, a stronger position. Unfortunately he became a little too ambitious

.......Orda

[King of Atlantis]

However, as I suggested, it is an adequate way of achieving something close to the events. Nobody said it was perfect, I just happen to think it better than having no Ilkhanate presence and since there were hostilities, this way will at least reflect that.
Expanding really. Neither Timur nor his prodege possessed the ability to destabilise the White Horde while Urus was alive. Toqtamish began his military career quite miserably, suffering defeat on more than one occasion. When Urus died there were at least, blood claimants to the throne which is very different to the state of affairs with the Golden Horde. At that time, with Batu's line extinct and after Nogai had done much to unsettle things, Mamai had set himself up as self proclaimed ruler. He was defeated at Kulikovo, an obvious blow to morale and even while he regrouped, Toqtamish took advantage of his weak position. At least Toqtamish was Jochid by decent even if he was not the proclaimed heir, or had relied upon Timur for his position; his defeat of Mamai and subsequent uniting of both 'Hordes' would probably have been readily accepted by the masses as a means of stability and hence, a stronger position. Unfortunately he became a little too ambitious

.......Orda

Yes expanding. I understand you may believe me to be ignorant of the situation, however I was well aware of all these events. However I did not think they were important facts.

The important thing I was stressing was the Toktahmesh was the agressor against Temur, and not vice versa. The details of how Toktamish rose to power would simply have lost that point. kataphraktoi was saying that since Temur fought against the Mongol Khanates that made it an internal conflict. I tried to briefly describe the stituations because I felt with the facts in hand it becomes aparent that Temur was his own conqueror, not a rebel insurgent and it is entirely improper to display him as such.


Unfortunately he became a little too ambitious
Thing is did he have much of a choice? Steppe armies usually depend on conquests. Temur experienced this and his force wasnt even a true steppe one. Many times he had to go on campaign because otherwise his warriors may change loyalties. After uniting the horde, Toktahmesh had to lead his armies somewhere. The only real options were Temur or Europe, and going further into Europe simply wasnt really worth it.

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Hello all...just a small question, if CA extends faction cap to 30, as they have been implying in the past.What more faction have you been thinking to add?
Would we see Cilician Armenia?Or perhapes emerging Crusader states when territory of jerusalem has been conquered by crusading army?

[kataphraktoi]

Gazi ur from Mostar, I had a friend from Mostar too!!!

Lovely girl she was :2thumbsup:

As to ur question, we had a few emerging factions in mind but didn't set anything concrete.

Perhaps Cilician Armenians as a scripted rebellions if not as an emerging faction.

[Orda Khan]

Yes expanding. I understand you may believe me to be ignorant of the situation,
I don't know why you draw this conclusion, it's not true.


Thing is did he have much of a choice? Steppe armies usually depend on conquests. Temur experienced this and his force wasnt even a true steppe one. Many times he had to go on campaign because otherwise his warriors may change loyalties. After uniting the horde, Toktahmesh had to lead his armies somewhere. The only real options were Temur or Europe, and going further into Europe simply wasnt really worth it.
It really depends which way you want to look at it. Personally, I don't believe he acted out of 'having no other choice' or that his armies actually required more conquest. Afterall, hadn't he recently united both 'Hordes'? Added to that he had also re-enforced the Tatar Yoke. It goes back to the original south Caucasus region, disputed with the Ilkhanate, never regained and now under Timur's authority; Toqtamish was now a bit puffed up but that's just my opinion

......Orda

[Mac Clan]

Anywho, kataphraktoi graciously invited me to work on the mod, for researching on the Scots, but I pointed out to him that I'm quite able to work on things as well, like the Irish, the Byzantines, and other such civilizations.
I have yet to recieve a reply or confirmation, however, so I'll say of now, that I look forward to working with you guys as a historical adviser.
-Mac

[DukeofSerbia]

Welcome Mac Clan to team.:balloon2:

[Mac Clan]

Welcome Mac Clan to team.:balloon2:
Well thank you sir. But the only thing is, and I guess I'll be eased into it.
But uh, I know your Rometotalrealism site, but have you guys got a Medieval Total Realism site up yet?

[Randarkmaan]

Would we see Cilician Armenia

Well, they're not Cilician Armenians, but Armenians will be prominent in the Fatimid army (Early Egypt).

[Monarch]

But uh, I know your Rometotalrealism site, but have you guys got a Medieval Total Realism site up yet?

Its not made by the same team that made RTR. They're just using the name to draw attention.

[Mac Clan]

Its not made by the same team that made RTR. They're just using the name to draw attention.
Ah, I had read on the forums that some members of the RTR team were moving to the MTR team. There was a big announcement about it a while back. In any case, what are the rest of the RTR doing anywho?
And btw, I accept kataphratoi's invite to resaerch/advise for Scotland in this mod.
Thank you.

[kataphraktoi]

Just a clarification in RTR and MTR.

The leadership in RTR is essentially the same as MTR, the people who inspired MTR (not me read my siggy) were from RTR's upper echelon. When we say RTR's team is not the same as MTR does not mean we're a different team that took the "total realism" name from RTR. We're stating that not everyone in RTR is working on MTR, only a small coterie.

Hope that clears the confusion.

Mac Clan, chek ur PM, its all formalised.

[Tsar]

Question for Duke of Serbia, did you make any concept art for serbian faction units?

[Mac Clan]

Mac Clan, chek ur PM, its all formalised.Done. Thanks alot.

[PorT_Lobo]

Its not made by the same team that made RTR. They're just using the name to draw attention.

Yes. :juggle2:

[DukeofSerbia]

Question for Duke of Serbia, did you make any concept art for serbian faction units?

Zdravo.

You asked me that on twcenter. Yes, I did it and you can find in sk.co.yu/forum in Izlazi Mediewal II Total Ware thread in page ? Look around 10.:2thumbsup:

[kataphraktoi]

Yes.

Are you here to make trouble again Port Lobo?

Read what I wrote earlier.


Just a clarification in RTR and MTR.

The leadership in RTR is essentially the same as MTR, the people who inspired MTR (not me read my siggy) were from RTR's upper echelon. When we say RTR's team is not the same as MTR does not mean we're a different team that took the "total realism" name from RTR. We're stating that not everyone in RTR is working on MTR, only a small coterie.

Hope that clears the confusion.

[King of Atlantis]

I don't know why you draw this conclusion, it's not true.
Your tone seemed caustic to me, but then again thats the problem with written communication, tone can easily be misinterpreted. My mistake for misinterpreting.


It really depends which way you want to look at it. Personally, I don't believe he acted out of 'having no other choice' or that his armies actually required more conquest. Afterall, hadn't he recently united both 'Hordes'? Added to that he had also re-enforced the Tatar Yoke. It goes back to the original south Caucasus region, disputed with the Ilkhanate, never regained and now under Timur's authority; Toqtamish was now a bit puffed up but that's just my opinion
Yea, I agree his ego probally got a little bloated from his victories, however I think it was also necesary. The loyalties of the steppe cheiftans can easily be turned and the only safe remedy is succesful military conquest. Perhaps a charismatic personality could have held the loyalties together, however I don't belief Tokthamesh possesed such a trait anyways.

[edyzmedieval]

Hoplitai? Hoplitai didn't even exist in the Byzantine times. :inquisitive:

[paullus]

sorry edyz, but as i'm sure you know, "hoplitai" really just means "heavily-armored soldiers." I'm not sure what in what capacity the Byzantines use "hoplitai," but they do, as well as "hoplitikon" and "hoploi bares" (is that the proper diclension on baros?) along with non-hopl-references like "stratiotai" etc.

[Kolkhi-2]

http://www.nplg.gov.ge/ic/library_e/gabeskiria/

verry huge source about Georgian history and military afairs:

“The nation of Crusaders”

Georgia is known in the Christian world as the Holy Virgin’s share-land, where are preserved some of the greatest sacred objects of Christianity – the shroud of our Lord Jesus Christ, and a nail presented by the Emperor of Byzantine Constantine, a very nail used during the crucifixion of the Savior.

The majority of Georgians are Orthodox Christians, although along with them, there is quite a substantial number of Muslims (most of the Acharels and Ingilos, Georgians in Turkey and Iran, part of the Meskhs), who underwent the Islamization during the last three centuries. This is clearly proven by a very transparent etymology of Ingilo (“Engilav” in Turkish signifies “a recently converted”). The local groups of ethnic confessionals among Georgians make also the Georgians of Gregorian or Catholic faith, that not very long ago they were proclaimed as “Armenians” and “French”, and only during the last period they have started to correct the results of the improper naming and the genuine regeneration of their real identity is underway.

True, the Georgian nation is a blend of the followers of the Christian religion and Islam, but Georgia, as an old sanctuary of the Orthodox Christianity on Asian continent, is still definitely associated with the Christian country of great traditions of culture and statehood, as well as the stronghold of Christianity in the Caucasus.

Christianity was preached in Georgia as early as the I century A..D., by Apostles Andria the First called, Simon of Canaan, Matatia, Thoma, Barthlome and Thadeoz. Two of them – Apostle Simon of Canaan and Apostle Matatia, are buried in Georgia. According to written sources, the Georgian church was founded by St.Apostle Andria, who blessed the first Georgian Episcope in Atskuri and founded an Episcopacy Chair for him. So, we can safely say, that the Christian church and parish existed incessantly, since the I century. Then, the Georgian Church was called The Georgian Greek Orthodox Church from the ancient period – till, and including the XVIIIc., it was also called “The Georgian Apostles Church”. Therefore, it is reasonable to restore the ancient name of the church and call it officially not “The Georgian Greek Orthodox Church”, but “The Apostles Church of Georgia” (129, p.16-19, 42, 55).

As a result of the missionary activities of St.Nino (see page 115) in the IVc. in the kingdom of Kartli (Iberia), Christianity was proclaimed an official religion. The first Episcopate Chair was founded in the capital of the kingdom – Mtskheta. The head of the Church (Ecclesia) bore the title of the Chief Episcopal. According to the opinion of the majority of Georgian researches of the Georgian ecclesia, from the beginning the Georgian Church was supervised by the Patriarch – first it was of Constantinople, then – of Antioch, and it became autocephalous in the Vc. Yet, there is also another opinion, that the autocephaly was already achieved in the IV c. At any rate, one point is clear: in the 60ies of the V c., in Kartli had already existed 12 eparchies, and the chief of ecclesia for that period, had already received the title of Catholicos. In the VI c. in Kartli, there already were more than 24 eparchies, and in the VII c – more than 35. In the 20-ies of the XI c., the Georgian Patriarchy was established as the 6th in the world in order. XII c. was marked with the foundation of new Episcopal chairs. The church was endowed with juridical and taxation immunity. The eparchies, constituting Georgian Patriarchy, administratively corresponded to saeristavo-tanships with the communities they included. In the XIX c. the Russian authorities nullified the autocephaly of the Georgian Church, and the title of Catholicos-Patriarch, prohibited the sermons and service in Georgian. The church property was given to the Treasury. The Georgian church was transformed into the egzarchos of the Russian church. On March 12 (25), 1917, the Georgian priesthood restored the autocephality of the Georgian church and in September of the same year, Catholicos-Patriarch was elected.
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There are 15 Greek Orthodox Churches of autocephaly: 1) Constantinople, the Head – The Chief Episcope of Constantinople and The Patriarch of the World; the Chair - in Constantinople – Istanbul, 2) Alexandria – Head – The Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria and all Africa, 3) Antioch- Head – The Patriarch of the City-Lord, Great Antioch and all East, Chair – in Damascus, 4) Jerusalem – Patriarch of the Saint City of Jerusalem and all Palestine, Chair – in Jerusalem, 5) Russia – head – Patriarch of Moscow and All-Russia, Chair – in Moscow, 6) Georgia – Head – The Chief Episcope of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and the All-Georgia, Chair – in Tbilisi, 7)Serbia – Head – Patriarch of All-Serbia, Chief Episcope of Pesh and Metropolitan of Belgrad-Carlovatz, Chair – in Belgrade, 8) Rumania – Head of Patriarch of All-Rumania Metropolitan of Ungro-Vlahe and the Chief Episcope of Bucharest, Chair – in Bucharest, 9) Bulgaria – Chief-Patriarch of all Bulgaria, Chair – in Sofia, 100 Cyprus – head – Chief Episcope of New Yustinian and the Island of Cyprus, Chair – in Levcusia, 11) Elladise – Chief –Episcope of Athens and All-Helladic, Chair in Athens, 12) Albania – Chief of Metropolitan of Tirana and the Chief Episcope of All-Albania, 13) Poland – Head – Metropolitan of Warsaw and All-Poland, Chair – in Warsaw, 14) Czech-Slovakia, Head – Metropolitan of Prague and All-Checo-Slovacia, Cathedra –in Prague, 15) America – Head-Episcope of Washington, Metropolitan of All-America and Canada, Cathedra – in New York.

In the world church diptych, the Georgian Patriarchy invariably held the 6th place – after Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. The existing hierarchical position was retained even after the Patriarch of Constantinople presented the title of Patriarch to the Head of the Russian Church at the end of the XVI c. and in the new diptych it was allotted the 5th place, with the exception of Rome.

Documentary data of the Georgian history provides the names of 140 heads of the Georgian church (among them 13 Chief Episcopes, 50 Catholicos Chief Episcopes, and 77 Catholicos Patriarchs). After the restoration of the autocephaly of the Georgian Church, its leaders were: Kirion II Sadzaglishvili (1917-1918), Leonide Okropiridze (1918-1921), Ambrosi Khelaia (1921-1927), Kristephore III Tsitskishvili (1927-1932), Kalistrate Tsintsadze (1932-1952), Melkisedek Pkhaladze (1952-1960), Eprem II Sidamonidze (1960-1972) and Davit V Devdariani (1072-1977), and since December 23, 1977, The All-Georgia Catholicos, 77th in order, Ilia II Ghudushauri-Shiolashvili (see page 116-117), whose residence is in Tbilisi.

According to the decree of the IV World Church Congress, the boundaries of the church should coincide with state borders. According to the laws of the Fathers , the limits of the jurisdiction of the Georgian Church invariably coincide with the Georgian State borders. The land of Georgia, as the Christian state is divided into 27 eparchies (see page 118-119).

So, for 2000 years, Georgia has firmly been following the road of Christianity, and to quote Giorgi Mtatsmindeli’s saying, “This is the true faith of our kin, and from the day we perceived it, we never waver to the left, or to the right, and will do it never, if God’s wish”.
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As the soul-lightening Ilia said, “Lord Jesus Christ was crucified for the world, so were we – for Jesus Christ. We unbuttoned the bosom of our small Georgia, and on its breast, as on the rock we erected the temple of Christianity, using our bones for stones, and our blood – for lime. And the infernal gates were unable to run it over. We decreased in number, almost none of us left, we sacrificed our wives and children, we fought unfair wars and brought them to the justified end, we exchanged our flesh for the soul and spirit, and a handful of nation, we preserved Christianity, did not let it stifle in this small land of ours, we call our homeland and fatherland – with so much justified pride…” (116-p.12).

Indeed, the history of Georgia presents a classical example of the selfless struggle of fifteen centuries long, and we must acknowledge, a parallel to it can hardly be found in the world history. We do not find it exaggeration, the name a Russian researcher E.Markov applied to Georgians: “The nation of crusaders” and provides their general historical mission with the following appreciation: “Europe, and especially Russia, still fail to fully recognize the importance of the historical mission of Georgia with regards to European Christianity with its centuries-old suffering and incessant struggle…

…The Georgian people are the true nation of crusaders. Similar to the crusader-knight’s life, the life of this nation was divided between prayers and bloody battles with Islam. For more than thousand years the nation did not slacken its grasp of the sword, and if they lacked Christian cross embroidered on their robes, it was firmly embedded in the heart of the nation…

…Thus, Georgia appeared the first redoubt of the Christian defense against Islam. This unintentional ally of Europe, did a great historical service to it…

…The powerful Muslim force of the Orient crushed its energy and its fanaticism against the in crushable breast of small Georgia” (85, pp.182-185).

These emotional appraisals of the Russian author would have made greater impressions, had he disclosed one of the basic motives of the historical martyrdom of Georgians, which was a religious unity of Georgians with the Greeks; for that reason, the followers of Mazdeism or Manometers considered the Georgians the closest allies of the Byzantines in the Caucasus and in the entire Asia Minor, and correspondingly, applied to the Georgians far stricter forms of their religious persecution, than towards the followers of the Gregorian faith of the Christian Armenians. To illustrate the said, it is sufficient to refer to the fragment of the story of martyrdom of Rajden the First Believer (XII c.), where it is said about the Persians’ “unwavered enmity against Christians” and the presses applied to the Georgians: “…Great was the struggle then and inexhaustible was hostility against the Christians, and Greeks in particular. But towards us, Georgians, for the appreciation of Greeks and unity with them we proclaimed – they expressed their will to join them in their animosity towards the Greeks (25, p.242).

To the honor of the Georgian people, in spite of many centuries of its religious repressions, it did not betray it ethno-confessional credo, and did not turn from the principle of “appreciation and unity with the Greeks” they shared the religion with, when once powerful Byzantine fell prey victim to the aggression of the Turks and Georgia appeared in the encirclement of the Muslim countries. But an unyielding will of the Georgians and the self-sacrificing attitude to the religion determined an exceptionally stable character of the course of its cultural and historical orientation, and an exceptional staunchness of the tradition in its self-determination as an inseparable part of the Christian civilization. Our ancestors’ strife “to be… considered the members of the culturally progressive mankind and viewed their own struggle with evil forces, that existed beyond the boundaries of this world, not only as a fight for their own national interests, but at the same time, as the struggle for the universal interests of the cultural mankind. That was the type of the task, which increased the gust and pride of our foremost ancestors in their endeavour to fulfill it” (128, p.229).
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We shall not make a mistake if we say that Christian mentality played almost a decisive role in the process of consolidation of the Georgian nation. It became a supporting ideology both - in the drive for the retaining of national identity and also in their uneven bloody struggle for the centralization of the country, especially, after the fall of Byzantine Empire, when Georgia became a lone island of Christianity in the entire Asia Minor. Surrounded by religious enemies, and under the conditions of “permanent encirclement”, “Christianity became one of the foremost factors in retaining national identity. In feudal Georgia, Christianity seemed merged with the national”(97, p.88).

And indeed, in the historical and ethnographic context of Georgia, the terms of “Greek Orthodox Christian” and “Georgian”, in fact, became synonymous. This is clearly proved by a citation of Prince Vakhushti Bagrationi: “But whenever you ask a Kartvelian (i.e. an inhabitant of Kartli), or an Imeri (i.e. an inhabitant of West Georgia, in general), or a Meskhi, a Kakheli or Heri, “Who they are?” their instant answer will be: “Kartveli”. Very significant is also Ioane Batonishvili’s “Kalmasoba”, where an episode of asking an ordinary priest from Racha the following: “Priest! Are you Rachveli, or are you a Christian?” – and the prompt answer of the priest followed: “Both!” (31, p.28). Clearly, in this case, the Rachveli would have signified his origin, while a Christian, apparently, corresponded to the notion of a Georgian.

For this reason, it is absolutely logical, that “In the past, the Georgian Church had a deeply natural character. Our cathedrals and monasteries were often transformed into fortresses… The church and the homeland were firm in each other’s support and nowadays it is quite difficult to determine, which of the three had a prevalence: the state, the fatherland, or the church, to such extent were they tied to - and intermingled with one another, making a unity of blood and spirit. Georgia, as the Land and Lot of the Virgin, was in constant struggle with the Muslims. The Church supported the country, led its pious army and prayed to Lord to stay victorious. What is instructive to us – that is the national character of the Georgian church in the past, and in that aspect the role and amount of its social service to the country should not be forgotten. (130, p.304-305).

K.Gamsakhurdia states, that “Neither the Spanish fanaticism, nor the ascetics and dogmatisms of Roman Catholicism characterized our faith. We do not remember either the atrocities of the Bartholomew’s Night, or the Huguenots, or auto-da-fes. Our monks remained citizens even within the walls of their monasteries and continued their care for the society.

Remember Grigol Khandzteli and his disciples, the builders of Klarjeti (59, p.148-149).
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The militant character of Georgian Christianity is revealed by the factor, that the issue of the country’s “to be, or not to be” was always immediately taken up by the representatives of the clergy, famed for rare purity of its ethics and flawless patriotism, who took part in battles with the same enthusiasm that the old Georgian rules obliged the mundane citizens liable for call-up to show. The fact is that at the most disastrous stage of the Georgian history, the representatives of our clergy began to fight personally in the forward position, and some of them even provided their compatriots exhausted with their incessant warfare – compatriots, with encouraging examples of courage and fabulous feats. It is known, that the kingdom of Kakheti was divided into 4 banner-tans, and three of them were led by episcopes (of Bodbe, Nekresi and Rustavi), while the fourth was under the supervision of a person allotted by the king (mostly, the princes). And a sub-chapter of Vakhushti’s “Descriptions” particularly underlines the participation of the clergy in military campaigns (“Of Joining the Army by the Episcopes”): “But joining the army by episcopes, likewise the chase and hunt of beasts and taking the part in fights, became a habit: but when the Mohammedans learned the fact of King Davit’s (Davit X, king of Kartli in the XVI c. – G.G.) unyielding struggle and shrewdness, and the weakness and ineffectiveness of the country’s episcopes, the episcopes said: “Do not allow weakness and ineffectiveness win you over and do not step back from your faith, religion and ways of yours, and we will become your leaders” and behaved accordingly [like it happened with Mroveli Avalishvili, who was told - after he had heard confessions in the Marabda battle: “If you are going to unsheathe your sward for fighting, order some other confessor to hear us, but if not – we would rather you did it”. To which he answered: “The war is today for the religion and Word of Christ, and not only for my sake; so, mind: I will be foremost in grasping my sword and spilling my blood!”. As for another reason: since the army was formed on the basis of drafting and the episcopes had the nobles amid serfs and imputed peasants for the cases of warfare, therefore they were obliged to assist their sovereigns and masters in the campaigns and this is the way it is from ancient times to present” (23, p.37-38)

Thus, we have the grounds to call the historical Christianity of Georgia, “militant Christianity”, or “dynamic Christianity”. This very type of Christianity, with its true spirit and pathos is clearly expressed in a phrase from an old Georgian chronicle: “…Now consider the kindness and the strength of faith, the people of Sakartvelo, the esteemed and the selected ones, and the extent of pride and endeavour they proved against the infidels in their strife to evade the debasement of their country, because fighting with them, seemed a great hunt and chase of beasts and the enjoyment on the plains of Karaya” (22, p.458).

This specificity of Georgian Christianity “introduced some changes in Christian dogmatisms, too. For Christianity in Georgia, extraordinary religious fanaticism was as alien as the development of religious sects, religious wars and inquisition” (97, p.88); practically, the country remained safe from the problems of controversy between the social leaders and the clerics, and local population remained free from the hard press of European clergy which played its role in keeping the Georgian mind appreciative and it likewise concerned its very respectful attitude, too, towards the object of the Christian cult. As A.Tsereteli expressed it, “The Georgians, in general, have always had the respect to and even fear of the temples, to the point that they would not dare to take away treasures – not only from the church, but even from its yard, within its walls. In many places, already ruinous, and in the remnants of the forgotten temples, still existed untouched old objects and offerings… Thieves, robbers or assassins would spend the night in those holy ruins but would never take anything from the place, so hard it is to break something that people’s feelings have transformed into the laws of the mind…” (111, p.36).
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Painful experience of religious persecution solidified in the Georgians magnanimity and the spirit of tolerance, the attitude of religious benevolence towards national minorities living in the country. As notes I.Chavchavadze, “A Georgian, crucified for his religion, knows how to respect the religion of others. Therefore, no one can find an example in our history of Georgians wishing to suppress or persecute others’ faith. Armenians, Jews, even Muslims, living among us, can never rebuke us for anything. And the ones, persecuted for their faith in other countries – here, in our country find the haven of peace and freedom of consciousness” (115, p.13). Iv.Javakhishvili, when discussing the matter of old Georgia, and in particular, “the Golden Age” of its political power, considers the proof of the “exceptional culture” in “the matter of peaceful and kind attitude which reigned among the sons of various nations and religions, the religious hatred had no power and grounds in the state, on the contrary – the diversity of religions and faiths did not interfere with various general cultural activities… Then, in the state of Georgia (the period of Queen Tamar’s reign – G.G.), a peaceful collaboration of three types of the clergy was possible: the Georgian Greek Orthodox and the Armenian Gregorian priests, and Muslim Cadis and Sheikhs gave examples of the peaceful cooperation. This is the most amazing and strongest proof of the culture of the society, an admiring example of international cooperation of that period! (123, p.306-307).

K.Gamsakhurdia demonstrates a rightful attitude, stating, “The racial theory and practice are completely alien to the Georgian nation. Those, who have studied the Georgian history, would easily notice that even at the period of Davit and Tamar, their great state spread from Nikopsia to Daruband, struggled and created not only through the support of the Georgians by origin, but also with the help and support of those non-Georgian nations, who considered themselves to be closely related to the Georgian culture. The cleverest kings of Georgia had always tried to get the non-Georgian population of the Caucasus interested in the task of defending the Georgian state” (57, p.341).

G.Asatiani believes, that “We live in a small sector of the planet, where since ancient times, antagonistic ethnic and political entities – states, tribes, and religions, fought and devoured each other as scorpions. Here always ruled the law of the plunderers. The strong was bound to eliminate the weak, the big was to devour the little, and the latter had to crawl like reptiles in search of dark passages - or choose the fate of dust under the feet of the strong – in order to somehow guarantee the survival of their own poor selves. And, in spite of that, the Georgian people managed to retain (at every stage of their history) their rare tolerance towards all nations and all types. Any small district in Tbilisi can represent a symbol of that. Where else, on such a small territory, for a number of centuries had stood so close to one another, like a unified architectural ensemble, the Orthodox, Gregorian and Catholic churches, a mosque and a synagogue? (45, pp.73-74).

No doubt, the proof of the Georgians’ tolerant nature and the exceptional broadness and nobility of their ethnic character, should be considered the unique sayings, like: “I will stand by you, the Tartar, if you call yourself my brother”, or – “If a Lack or a Tartar starts quarrelling with your brother, still judge fairly” (37, p.232, 239).

Luckily, the Georgians, exhausted by the wars for their religion and the maintenance of their national individuality, have never tried to introduce any basic corrections in the order of their mentality and revise their traditions of tolerance, because their nature is rich with unique quality of loving the fellow-men, tempered during the number of centuries, which – together with unshakeble Christian morale – “received a lively sunny form in the Georgian transcription” (46, p.347).

And the same opinion is expressed by K.Gamsakhurdia, “Although the religion of Christianity was the invention of totally unrelated and foreign race, but in this case, too, the peculiarity of the creative force of the Georgian nation and its strength were also expressed here. Not a single nation perceived this religion the way we did; for us Christianity was a position… We have the right to say that not a single European Christian nation has ever tried to and succeeded in lighting the religion through the optics of poetry, like we have managed to” (59, p.148).

True, nowadays more than a million of Georgians are the followers of Muslim religion, but a big part of them still maintains the Georgian national identity, which became their heirloom from the epoch of the Georgians’ political, cultural and ideological unity. And the best proof of that is a rare firmness of Acharuli ethnic consciousness, putting an end to 300 year-old Turkish supervision, that a folk poet Hussein Kanjaradze smartly said in his verse, “My religion of Tartars, my origin – of Georgian”.

In short, the religious and ethic characteristics of Georgians proves the idea of Akaki Tsereteli, that:

“As long as the Georgians
maintain their religion
ethics will not vanish
and no one can destroy them”

[Kolkhi-2]

about Georgian military history, please read :

http://www.nplg.gov.ge/ic/library_e/gabeskiria/15.htm

[Randarkmaan]

...Georgia is already included in the list of factions...

[Kolkhi-2]

yes, I know... my sources help the moderators to develope the Georgian faction.

[Vuk]

I have a life, and so cannot join your team. But I do know quite a bit about Byzantine, so if you need research post it and I'll see if I can help. Also I would like to say that I really think you should recreate the city of Constantinople as well as reasonably possible. ( Have the great palace, true walls, the Hippodrome, etc.). There is an interesting site that has 3-D renders of a lot of Byzantine buildings from 1200. I researched some of them (the Hagia Sophia most heavily) and as far as I can see they are pretty accurate (and where things are unknown, they make good assumptions.) While it is not fully accurate, I think it is definately worth having a look at.

www.Byzantium1200.com (http://www.byzantium1200.com)

[King of Atlantis]

Hey, 31 factions is official, so now the Timurids can be their own faction:2cents:

[DukeofSerbia]

Later today I will post in new thread Official faction list and Q&A about them:2thumbsup:

[Ja'chyra]

I'm willing to help out in a part time capacity as needed, not much computing skills though but I could do some research if required.

[DukeofSerbia]

I'm willing to help out in a part time capacity as needed, not much computing skills though but I could do some research if required.

Good. In what factions/regions are you good and what period of time?:book:


Hey, 31 factions is official, so now the Timurids can be their own faction:2cents:

No, they'll be not included.

[Bakma]

Hey, 31 factions is official, so now the Timurids can be their own faction:2cents:

that is a nice idea... but it is sad that they will not be included


No, they'll be not included.

[King of Atlantis]

No, they'll be not included.

You guys really found 31 factions more important than them?:inquisitive:

[Ja'chyra]

I'm Scottish, so probably them, but I'd be willing to look into others if it was needed, just let me know.

[DukeofSerbia]

I'm Scottish, so probably them, but I'd be willing to look into others if it was needed, just let me know.

We have researcher for Scotland and he from what I know finished research of Scotland.

Any other area?


You guys really found 31 factions more important than them?:inquisitive:

Not all 31 factions.

I hope that I will publish list later today in the name of team.:2thumbsup:

[Mac Clan]

sorry edyz, but as i'm sure you know, "hoplitai" really just means "heavily-armored soldiers." I'm not sure what in what capacity the Byzantines use "hoplitai," but they do, as well as "hoplitikon" and "hoploi bares" (is that the proper diclension on baros?) along with non-hopl-references like "stratiotai" etc.
If my knowledge holds true, hoplatia was the name denoting the hoplites, thus named because of the hoplo, the shield that the Ancient Greeks valued for their phalanx. Though the word did survive for later use in some Byzantine manuals, it does not mean "heavy soldier" but merely someone who would have participated in a phalanx formation.

[Mac Clan]

We have researcher for Scotland and he from what I know finished research of Scotland.

Yes, there are two researchers for Scotland, one is a Gael Professor and the other one is myself. Scotland's lineup list of units is completed.

And there won't be any kilts/tartans.
Or Woad Paint. :P

[tutankamon]

Hey Great idea!! making this mod would really improve the game!! it seriously lacks the whole historical part!!
I hated, as an medieval archaeology student, to see so many anacronism in a game that claims to be historical.. i have so many things i could critisize in the game!! but I'll spare you for that ~;) so therefore I would love to help with this game.. and since I study archaeology in denmark i would gladly help with anything I can.. and If there's something i don't know.. I can allways ask my teachers ~:) so if you need any help you know where to find me

[Motep]

Id love to help you out! But im currently banned from modding by my folks...might change in the next couple of weeks! Im sure my help would be small for such a mod, but I could help out on several aspects.

[Tellos Athenaios]

If my knowledge holds true, hoplatia was the name denoting the hoplites, thus named because of the hoplo, the shield that the Ancient Greeks valued for their phalanx. Though the word did survive for later use in some Byzantine manuals, it does not mean "heavy soldier" but merely someone who would have participated in a phalanx formation.

The hoplon shield did indeed give it's name to the soldier, but...

If you look at the word 'hopla' > (heavy) arms (pl. of hoplon) > hoplitai > (heavy) armed soldiers...

[xmart2k]

hey guys,i'm new here, i was searching for mods and i've jumped here....interesting project,what can i say.But i'm a little disappointed,everyone who mods forget about the romanian principates(Moldavia,Carpathia and Wallachia).Thanks to Moldavia and Wallachia(Carpathia was under the ocupation of hungary),the Turks never passed the Danube on their conquest mission over western europe
i'm from romania and i would like to see one of this factions added(Wallachia would be cool).i can be a researcher 4 you if you need any.

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

Good luck to your guys with this!!

MCM

[Bakma]

hey guys,i'm new here, i was searching for mods and i've jumped here....interesting project,what can i say.But i'm a little disappointed,everyone who mods forget about the romanian principates(Moldavia,Carpathia and Wallachia).Thanks to Moldavia and Wallachia(Carpathia was under the ocupation of hungary),the Turks never passed the Danube on their conquest mission over western europe
i'm from romania and i would like to see one of this factions added(Wallachia would be cool).i can be a researcher 4 you if you need any.

romania was for some centurys turkish.

[SoupNazi]

romania was for some centurys turkish.

YOU LIE!

We(yes i'm romanian too) undertook major battles with the turks...and just Dobrogea was actually Turkish for a while ...we paid a regular gold fee and some romanian soldiers were converted and taken into the ottoman army but we never had turkish rulers, and ...you can take my word for it..there are no turkish influences throughout romania now, just hungarian ones...in Transylvania.
Furthermore...with not even a shadow of disrespect... i believe you shouldn't be influenced by Bram Stoker's Dracula(which is the main sourse of knlowledge for foreign ppl regarding our country)...with Vlad Tepes(aka Dracula) ruling over Transylvania (LIES) and the big battle map animation with the turkish banner just stopping at it's borders...it's just another big fat LIE. I hope i didn't offend anyone with this reply..it's just how i feel about things

[Bakma]

no turkish influence? why are there still people who speak turkish?

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/moldavia-history.htm
http://www.everyculture.com/No-Sa/Romania.html
http://hometown.aol.com/simonagscu/romania.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Transylv.html
and so on....

[SoupNazi]

no turkish influence? why are there still people who speak turkish?

if 3 ppl in the whole of romania speak turkish that doesn't mean we have turkish influences...ppl DO NOT speak turkish by god...unless they are turks and came to romania on vacation...their a minority, far more gipsies(rroma) than turks i assure you,the hungarian influences i was speaking of, were actually real..if u travel to some of the old medieval cities that were under hungarian rule half of the ppl speak hungarian. And you can hardly call 2 words from our vocabulary that don't even show in dictionaries(because they're slang), an influence.
Furthermore...the whole phanariot rule and other things like the "southern Moldavia" beeing anexed by the ottoman empire..that's just later, a couple of centuries after the mod ends, not to mention that in 1066 when the game begins..none of the principates were under foreign rule...and the mod ends just BEFORE we get seriously invaded so the most important romanian battles our little moments of glory fit right in the game's time span.
Playing the romanian principates would make the game very challenging, fighting on 2 fronts with little funds...so on and so forth

[SoupNazi]

i was wondering...not sure where to post this...are you going to change less realistic things which don't very much have to do with history such as the gargantuan range of crossbows?...(bows should have much larger range and rate of fire, and a little less damage and crossbows should reload really slow and deliver devastating damage but at close range and only when shot str8 forward and not ballisticly) or the heavy cavalary's puny charge bonus?...there should be like a running through sensation when attacking light infantary for example...
i can't wait to see the mod done keep up the good work :beam:

[satchef1]

in 1066 when the game begins..none of the principates were under foreign rule

Wrong. Wallachia and Moldovia were under Bulgarian control until 1018, then Pecheneg control until 1090 at which point the Cumans held them. Transalvania was under Hungarian rule from the early 11th century.
Wallachia didnt become independant until the 13th Century, Moldovia the 14th Century and Transalvania the 16th Century. How exactly would you implement a Romanian faction from that?

[SoupNazi]

so romanians will be rebels?:wall: this raises a question tho...in fact i was going to ask anyway: will rebels vary in troups depending on the region their in? for example will irish have some other special troups that can be recruited only by them, or will all the rebels be an anonimous mass of ppl just idle-ing away waiting to be destroyed?

[DukeofSerbia]

Romanians in medieval? This is serious?

Wallachia and Moldova will be rebels = Petcheneges.

[JoeyBritt]

Hi, my names Joey Britt and I'm new here, but would love to help with this mod. Whilst my modding skills are pretty limited, I feel that I could learn if needs be, but I am definately interested in helping research. My specific topic areas that I am knowledgeable in are:

- The Holy Roman Empire under Charles V (i.e Lutheran crisis etc)
- France in late 1500s - the French Wars of Religion
- The Miliatary Revolution of C15-16th
- England under the Tudors
(I also know rough details about the rest of Europe in the Early Modern Period)

Whilst I understand that most of the research will be focused on the start point of the game at 1066, I would be most grateful if I could help with information from later periods (perhaps events etc that happen) and help out the various faction researchers (particularly HRE) and/or be part of a research team for the later years of the game.

One thing I would say, without knowledge of how hard it would be to code, is that if you want a *realistic* mod of the ages that M2TW covers, the Miliatary Revolution is a massive turning point for the end of the 1400's and early 1500's. Whilst this includes the obvious moving from sword to gunpowder, one can't overlook the massive shift in the style of fortifications to match this. Starting at Civitavecchia in the early 1500s (i forget the date precisely), Trace Italienne fortifications were a huge part of the Early Modern landscape. As I said, the option to upgrade current fortifications to Trace Italliene may be damn hard to include in the mod, but, for the sake of realism, it is my belief that is should be in there as without it, no fortification was safe from the cannon.

Cheers,
Joey Britt

[Garnier]

I think this mod is planned to end safely before the 1500s. Hopefully in the year 1453.

[mac89]

If youre still looking for a 2d artist Im willing to help, I have got good experience with Photoshop, Fireworks (I mostly use photoshop), Flash and Dreamweaver.

[SoupNazi]

i'd love to help you guys too with some unit art-work..i can research and draw some things..i have a knack for this kinda stuff...so if u need me send me a message or reply to my post

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Wrong. Wallachia and Moldovia were under Bulgarian control until 1018, then Pecheneg control until 1090 at which point the Cumans held them


How exactly would you implement a Romanian faction from that?

That is why i said in a previous post on a different topic, that Valachia should start UNDER THE PROTECTORATE OF CUMANS. It is extremly accurate from a historicall point of view.They could emerge sooner or later, like in real history, depending on some factors (in true history, when the hungarian ioke starting to grow, especially in Southern Transilvania, many vlahs crossed the mountains and settled in Valachia, thus helping in the cristalization of the state).

It should be mentioned that during those times the Hungarians penetrated the Carpathian Basin , and fought against the Vlachs from there, managing to overwhelm them.

Also, i repet, Hungary should be an unique faction, having to choose in the begining either to remain catholic, either to return back to the old pagan ways, as violent pagan reactions took place overthere until the XI-XII century...

Adding a Valachian faction, would not just spice up history , but also would make the gameplay more interesting. An early valahian army, would be an army made of low-quality units, uncapable of fighting in open field, but mastering the art of ambushes, traps, etc.... Choosing the terrain would play a crucial role... like in real history ~;)Also, managing to hold on against such great empires from nearby, would be also more than challenging.

I hope that in the near future, i will manage to muster some other people interested by Vallachians and not just, and launch a sort of "Ottoman invasion" campaign, set in the Balkans and Asia Minor around the XIV-XV century...

[SoupNazi]

I have no idea where to post these, i'm sorry for my clumsiness.

The drawings are from last year..i've been improving my technique ever since...but unfortunately these are the only figure drawings i have on my computer that are worth showing at the present time. The drawings are posted in reverse-chronological order


https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5446/anatomie1xm9.th.jpg (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anatomie1xm9.jpg)

https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/363/gladiatori2gy5.th.jpg (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gladiatori2gy5.jpg)

https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4594/studiu2zi1.th.jpg (https://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studiu2zi1.jpg)

https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7983/templareo5.th.jpg (https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=templareo5.jpg)

[SoupNazi]

in my research for the game i found some incredible art-work. i dunno if u guys have the liberty to use these but i'm posting one of them in hope that it might help. this one is from osprey's history books-the english knight...i have lots more..english longbowmen...medieval russian armies...the templar and hospitaller knights...and so on and so forth..with alot of interesting text about them too.

https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4256/englishknightug4.th.png (https://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=englishknightug4.png)

[DukeofSerbia]

OK.

For week or two there will be posted about members who want to join and have knowledge or/and skills we need.

mac89, SoupNazi

You'll be contacted for several days.:2thumbsup: Don't worry. I need to post that in our Developer subforum.

Ja'chyra

This also apply on you.

We'll see...:2thumbsup: We'll see...

[Publius]

OK.

For week or two there will be posted about members who want to join and have knowledge or/and skills we need.

mac89, SoupNazi

You'll be contacted for several days.:2thumbsup: Don't worry. I need to post that in our Developer subforum.

Ja'chyra

This also apply on you.

We'll see...:2thumbsup: We'll see...

All three have now been contacted.

[mikoyan]

I think you should include Bulgaria as playable faction.... We were huge nation in early medieval years, may be the biggest enemy of Byzantium.

[DukeofSerbia]

Bulgaria will be not playable faction as there was no Bulgaria in 1066. Maybe emerging faction in 1186.

[AnthoniusII]

I am a fun of history and i saw the great job you are doing.
But last weeks i have not see any news!!
Did you quit the "Age of Ambition "?
If not what is the progress you made?

[Shahed]

Very nice project.

Questions to Muslim faction researchers:

1. Who were the Al-Muwahidun and who were their predecessors ?
2. Which was the first gate of Constantinople to fall, by which method, and by what military group ?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

It seems that the first tower to be brought down was the Bactatinian tower along with a part of the outer wall around it, on April 21st although I can't find where exactly this tower was situated. As far as gates are concerned it would be the Kerkoporta. This was a gate in the point where the main land walls joied with the single wall of the Blachernae. It seems that access to it has been obstructed by rubble and it had been left open after a foray of the defenders. A Turkish soldier noticed it and moved in with 50 or so comrades. If you are talking about a gate that fell through fighting it is the St Romanus gate, on the last day of the attack, although it had been destroyed by cannonfire for some time and a palisade was erected to seal the gap.

[AnthoniusII]

Even the project looks great and corect from historical view i still haven't
an aswer if it's still exist's.

[DukeofSerbia]

I am a fun of history and i saw the great job you are doing.
But last weeks i have not see any news!!
Did you quit the "Age of Ambition "?
If not what is the progress you made?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=225

You can find here everything. I just don't have time to be here and there.:laugh4:

There is no modding until CA presents Unpacker. :yes: And even after that modding meshes and textures will be probably impossible.:thumbsdown:

[Miloshus]

I would like to know when will the mod be finished and ready for download

[Sarmatian]

I would like to know when will the mod be finished and ready for download

This time next year...

They haven't even started yet so it is too early to say...

[Miloshus]

I think our neighbours Bolgars should also be included in the mod.
They were one of strongest factions in eastren europe.

[VlaDeatHell]

Originally posted in the MTW2 official forums, thread http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm55.showMessageRange?topicID=10688.topic&start=41&stop=43

"First, good luck with the mode, sounds quite good and if it follows the tradition, it will be a "must have" for me.

Ok, here's the main part. I'm bulgarian No comment, please.
I would really like to see the Tzardom of Bulgaria in the mode, and I'll try to be constructive about the "+" and "-" for this.

Drawbacks:

- Historically, at the time when MTW2 begins, Bulgaria is under a Byzantine rule, the exact period is 1018 -1186.

- Due to the fewer provinces in the east, particulary the Balkans/Anatolia district, the balancing between number of factions/available provinces will be quite a hard task.

- Due being a former communist country, quite a few westerns knew/have the historical facts that I have access to, so it will be a hard task convincing you about the historical importance of the faction.

Ok, here's the other part:

+ Originally, the Tzardom of Bulgaria (tzar = emperor, not king, excuse me ) had history starting from 681. And I mean the formation of the Bulgarian Khaganate on the Balkan Peninsula after the crushing defeat of the Byzantines' emperor Constantine IV by the united Proto-Bulgars/Slav army under the leadership of Khan Asparukh and the following OFFICIAL ceasefire between the Byzantines and Bulgaria. This makes the country officially acknowledged by the biggest power of the Time.

+ You all said it, the games simply needs more Otrhodox factions (Bulgaria became Orthodox in the year of 864.

+ There are certain periods of the Medieval History that we dominated the whole Balkan peninsula (and more, I can provide non-bulgarian official data for it), which can hardly be said for any other of the neighbouring factions except the Byzantines.

+ Bulgarian army was one of the strongest for the time before the discovery of the gunpowder in the East, actually Bulgaria held the Turks for around a decade when it's in its decline and the Turks in its rise. Again, I can provide precise data.

+ The ONLY true rival of the Byzantines for Pax Balkanika (translataion, total domination of one of the richest and a key region between the true East and West) before the arrival of the Turks on the peninsula (1352, and they actually fight like a mercenaries for both Bulgaria and Byzantines).

+ The active role the country played in the worlds politics, establishing contacts with the Pope, defeating the Latin Empire, the relations with Hungary, Poland, the Crusaders, etc.

+ No offense, neigbours, if Serbia is included ... No further comment, I'll be thrown to the wolves (Just kidding :clown: )

That's it ... I would apriciate any feedback for the post from the modders or any other who would like to give his oppinion."

Just to add, I'm willing to provide you with historically accurate data and maybe help in the mod's creation. Contact e-mail: vlad@vantageinternet.com

[kataphraktoi]

Greetings one and all, my absence is not attributed to any death of the MTR project, its simply becayse Ive been busy the last few months. Christmas holidays will arrive soon and so will have time to devote to MTR again.

[Logotet Stratiotika]

Bulgar han Boris accepted christianity in 864 not orthodoxy,as you know there was so called pagan reaction by hans son Vladimir in 889 only after bloody civil war second son Simeon,may lord bless his people,in 893 began his great
era.
And restoration of III Bulgarian empire began with Asen brothers between 1184/1186 but after Velibuzd battle 1331 Serbian Kingdom took prominet roll as Fortis magnum per honorum te per fides

[Grimmnir]

Hello,

when will the MTR mod "Age of Ambition" be released?

Greetings

Grimmnir

[Baldwin of Jerusalem]

Everyones still waiting for the update patch and associated mod unpacker over at totalwar.com I imagine that no serious work can be done until thats released and even then these guys like to really overhaul the game if their past releases are anything to go by. I would say it will be many months away yet. MTW2 has many more possiblities than RTW modding wise and apart from anything else it includes 31 faction slots and a moddable diplomatic system so.....

[DukeofSerbia]

Baldwin of Jerusalem

You have right.

[Grimmnir]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately I will have to wait patiently.

Greetings

Grimmnir

[lolalot222]

Gonna announce your little merge anytime soon?

[JR-]

que?

merge..................?

[DukeofSerbia]

Yea. We forgot it here.

[AnthoniusII]

About Bulgarian states in medieval times.

Bulgarian regions "Meesia" concidered part of Bizantine"East Roman"empire.
That's why emperor Basileios the one who called "Bulgaroctonos" when captured the last 15000 men of the bulgarian rebel army blinded them.
It was the proper punicment for traitors.
At this part of history "1066"Bulgaria became "Meesia"region again.
It would be a mistake if Bulguria was independed in the start of the mod.

[Logotet Stratiotika]

Grat example of history it is the emperor Basil II (976(989)-1025) of the so called Macedonian dynasty he gain his attribute when he fix some 14000-15000 Bulgars after defeating them at Belasica in 1014 he then brought to end Samui's II Bulgarian Empire after that he founded thema called Bulgaria,Paristron or Paradanubion and some other administativ formation such as Serbion and Sirmion where they thema we are not so shure.

The terms Moesia and Huns are anciant tradition in hellenistic education in the Byzantium even in later periods such as XIV century writers used this terms to emphasized their education one such example is Georgius Pachimer who refers to Bulgars as Moesians:book:

[JR-]

Gonna announce your little merge anytime soon?

i shall try again:

"que......... merge?"

translation - what is this 'merge' of which you speak?

[Miloshus]

Bulgaria should be faction from the start - no game is realistic.(100 years big difference)

[kataphraktoi]

Fortunately, not having BUlgaria WONT affect gameplay

Fortunately, Bulgaria not in MTR WONT make it unrealistic either

Fortunately, not everyone is BULGARIAN

Having Bulgaria from the start when its under Byzantine occupation is not realistic

[Miloshus]

Fortunately, not having BUlgaria WONT affect gameplay

Fortunately, Bulgaria not in MTR WONT make it unrealistic either

Fortunately, not everyone is BULGARIAN

Having Bulgaria from the start when its under Byzantine occupation is not realistic
First of all I am not Bulgarian.
Their role in the Balkans is as important as Polish or Hungarian in middle Europe.:yes:
They were more powerfull than Normans in mediteranian.

[AnthoniusII]

I think most members of "Total Realism" are funs of a game that offers the
correct historical background.
That's the beauty of it.Bulgarians could exist as rebels or as topic militia
troops under any rooler of the region we talk about.
Talking of militia troops,could be light or heavy infantry of all types.
Bulgarians as people of the asian steppes where famus as heavy archers
and experts in ambush.

[kataphraktoi]

Their role in the Balkans is as important as Polish or Hungarian in middle Europe.

Just another local power with no consequences of significance unlike Serbia, Poland or Hungary. If we had to choose between Serbia and BUlgaria, we chose Serbia simply because it was much more influential and powerful than Bulgaria. Because really, we had to choose between Serbia or Bulgaria because out of the Balkan powers (sans Byzantium), they were the real contenders on the faction list.


They were more powerfull than Normans in mediteranian.

I doubt it, the Normans held the HRE, the Byzantines and the Papacy at bay and participated in the Crusades...so the Bulgarians were NOT more powerful than the Normans. Oh yeah...the Normans had a navy...which is very very important if ur based in the Mediterranean.

[AnthoniusII]

Wooden and stone forts.

Is there any thoughts about constracting forts wooden or even stone ones?
They could be very usefull to hold strategic positions all over the map.
In a mod of "one year-one turn"forts of this kind could give an essence of realism.A good idea could be that stone forts would not disapear even they are without garison,even more damaged.
A very powerfool and valueable price for any offencive player.
An expencive but necessary tool for any defencive one.
Costs and time of constact under discution.

[FrantzITA]

A list of modification i would make :balloon2:

Knights and maa - less , more powerful and expensive

Rebels - more powerful and capable of indipendant actions

Soldiers graphic - its not so bad as its, the units are a bit too armoured ( the foot maa/broken lances and gothic knights are a bit ridicolous ) .. i would like to see more chainmails almost until middle 1300

Castles - if possible i will make inner castle gates always open

AI - should garrison cities with alot of militia

IF i was imperator - i would have not extended the map far east and added more nations in europe ( making appear Swiss , Burgundy , Teutonic order etcetc at the proper time

[FrantzITA]

and 2 other things

i will make the experience counting much more on the battlefield , that will help the AI too ( that usually field experienced troops ) , usually i dont see ont the battlefield an enormous difference between green and veterans and its unrealistic

Also i will make units less vulnerable to rear attacks .. otherwise the game is all a "i block you with one unit and attack in the rear with cavalry !!" , that should help AI armies alot and force playes to work with infantry tactics .

[Hody]

I quess you will use this for bohemia http://www.husitstvi.cz/vojenske-jednotky.php

txt in czech just click on hyperlinks to see unit pics..

[mayhem87]

Or this one. Its in english and there are few pics of war wagons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars

[kataphraktoi]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76780

Scholae cavalry

[AnthoniusII]

Nice work with the "tagmata-clibanophoroi"image.
I hope i'll see pronoiai heavy cavalry too.
A good idea for them to recruit could be a huge farm larger than "irigation" in to large or huge cities.They where recruit after 1204 as personal gards of land owners.Emperors used them the same way the western kings used nights.They adopted western arms and armors spesialy small triangle shields.

[perris0707]

Kataphraktoi,

Man, your Byzantine stuff is beautiful!!! The units if they look like your concept art will be amazing! Keep up the great work. I bought M2:TW just so I can get Total Realism when it's ready!

Perris

[AnthoniusII]

Units limitation.
I wonder if an unit limitation would help the mod to be more realistic.
In M2TW game there is a limitation for characters like priests,merchants etc.
My idea is that the limitation must expant for military units also.
For examble a player should not be able to recruit more than one(1) unit of
knights and one (1)unit of dismount knights per castle.
This limitation would offer more realistic armies in the game.
In reality units such as knights or kataphractoi where elite and rare,that's
why most part of the armies had units like sergeants or men at arms.
A limitation like this will lead players to replace old fashioned units of new ones.Mailed knights for feudal ones etc.Is it possible?

[AnthoniusII]

Total realism with another muslim faction.

I think there is a faction that's missing.
I mean the Chorasmian one.Chorasmians where a super power of that time
the mod starts.That faction colapsed after the mongol invasion.
They where famus for the heavy cavalry they created.They also used extented numbers of turkomanic cavalry and ifantry.Chorasmian state was powerfull enough to control the famous silk road and have a critical influence
to tourkomanic sultans both of east and west.
If you deside to add this faction in the mod,you should give them the eastern provincies you have for the seljuc faction on your map.Chorasmians(Iran) had diplomatic relations whith Bizantine Empire aiming for greater profit of the silk road.:book:

[mayhem87]

The faction list is completed and no one can change it. Maybe after release of 1st version of the mod. Faction slots are full

[Numeros Decimus]

I'm not completely on track with things involved in the creation of M2TR but I have some questions if you don't mind to answer.

Sometimes I see somewhat biased descriptions about factions in certain games, take AOE3 for instance, I know the TR mods will try to follow their own motto which is realism, and this will include an impersonal view about each nation.

I'm aware that for instance in RTR they put a description about each civ and along with that they also put some "suggestions" ' to help the player or give him a first objective or something like that. This is a game and the player can't be forced to conquer the exact same map areas than in true history were conquered by the conrresponding civ, a player playing Armenia will conquer the entire map if he wants to, but I noticed that sometimes these indications do follow the same conquests of that civ that really happened.

I saw the map and I really like it and especially the number of provinces(take for instance the accuracy concerning the province that makes the "Condado Portucalence"), the only thing that I wished it had was that it would reach appoximately the regions of coastal Ginea. I'll say why later on.


My question is this: Will certain kingdoms like Portugal or Spain be given in their civ description text some historically accurate suggestions such as for instance saying that it would be wise if the player as Portugal conquers the northwest African coast, thus the reason for the Ginea coast or as Spain to conquer certain provinces of the Italian peninsula, despite the true historical conquest dates of these territories. Could even these historically accurate suggestion(despite the dates) be even put in the victory conditions? In Portugal's example the player had to conquer some northern African provinces and along the coast. The player would still be able to conquer whatever he/she want to, but it could even help the fun factor of the mod, at least for those who know some history concerning several nations since they know they will have to do approximately the same things that in were done in history.

[mayhem87]

I must say that I fully agree with it. Because ( for example ) when I choose Byzantine empire ill focus on the east to fight with the Turcs.
Or once when I played Spain... I driven of the saracens and that was end of fun because i didnt want to fight with french or expand northward because they didnt do that too. Everytime I was without any objective.
Im so linked to history that when I played as Bohemia in Europa universalis 3 and owned a half of Europe + caribean provinces...it was so unreal that it bored me a lot. so i break that game :)))....
So I want to say that you could set up some realistic goals for each faction and direct players in the right way, what try to conquer first...:book:

[saapas]

The thing I like about Byzantium are the endless possibilities of conquest. You can try and expand your borders to the same extent they shared under Justinian, which is what the emperors actually did try.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Justinien_527-565.svg/800px-Justinien_527-565.svg.png

[AnthoniusII]

EAST ROMAN EMPIRE EXPANDS.
Firs of all i must say that i agree for the realistic aims of expansion for every faction.Those aims should be given by the council of nobles of their faction.
For example a dream of all emperors of Bizantine Empire was the Roman Reconqouista.Those aims of expansion had two(2) stages.Stage 1:regain of the provinces lost by arabs.1 province of Eddessa,2 Palaistine,3Syria,4Egypt,5province of cyrene with it's capital Carthage.Stage 2:the new PAX ROMANA
(Ioustinianus Empire).For this stage the map given by saapas is very helpfull.

[AnthoniusII]

EAST ROMAN EMPIRE EXPANDS.
Firs of all i must say that i agree for the realistic aims of expansion for every faction.Those aims should be given by the council of nobles of their faction.
For example a dream of all emperors of Bizantine Empire was the Roman Reconqouista.Those aims of expansion had two(2) stages.Stage 1:regain of the provinces lost by arabs.1 province of Eddessa,2 Palaistine,3Syria,4Egypt,5province of cyrene with it's capital Carthage.Stage 2:the new PAX ROMANA
(Ioustinianus Empire).For this stage the map given by saapas is very helpfull.

[AnthoniusII]

Expansion of Arabs...

A good idea of the arabic expansion goals I think is the regaining of Sisily,the rebirth of the arabic principality of the CHANDAX(the city of Heracleion)in Crete,the apsolute leadership of all arabic and muslim reagions and finaly the capture of Constantinople.For the last goal there is a mansion in the Coran that the conqueror of Constantinople wil gain the supreme general of all times.
Although those goals I must admit that there where no brutalities against cristian populations in most of the cities they conquered from 680ad to the first crusade time.

[AnthoniusII]

What's the truth?
I am confused!!!! When I saw the descreption of this mod I was sure that this was final!! The map,the story even the development team looked gread.
But when I took a look in an other forum of the Age of Ambition I came across in a totaly diferend mod,whith another map and another list of factions.
Even the starting year of the mod was 1071 and not 1066 as I red at the starting page of this forum.My question is...what must we expect of this mod?
How many factions are they? What's the exact starting year?
Is this forum an oficial one for this mod?

[AnthoniusII]

Byzantine stone walls and buildings.
M2TW was a desapointment about byzantine(late roman) stone walls and buildings.Mod artists sould take a look in "Byzantium 1200"page.Most of the houses in the "East Roman Empire" where roman and not europian.I hope that deference will exict in the mod.

[Timbol]

How close to completion is this mod?

[Kruniac]

This bloody thing isnt finished yet? Release it already.

My god, the one mod that will be worth playing has been "coming soon" for the past fourteen years. Hurry up, you taffers.

:furious3:

[King Orko]

This bloody thing isnt finished yet? Release it already.

My god, the one mod that will be worth playing has been "coming soon" for the past fourteen years. Hurry up, you taffers.

:furious3:
don't push them, but you are right this mod is too much time coming soon!

[nurizeko]

Yaaaaaaaaaay!!, this has got me excited now. :)

I remember playing Rome: Total Realism, it totaly made the game for me, vanilla was nothing compared to RTR.

I look forward to this.

[Haedarmkm]

Hi
First: I need to inform about release date and required version of the game.
Second: I'am wonderd why the modder didnt make Abbasid faction which historically were the head of all arabic and islamic nation at that time and all other were a part of that (Calphate)Abbasid. and I have meny information about the Abbasid. thanks

[D. Afonso Henriques]

Well Headar it's you and pretty mutch every one that needs infomation on the release date.
I mean, you guys seem to be doing a really great job, quite fantastic. But we have been waitting for so long already, I don't mean to push you or anything. Though if you could at least say when you think that you will be able to make a release, we would all appreciate that. Thanks, anyways.

[Carthage]

yeah) it's very good that there are a lot of fans of total war all over the world)
just registered...hi brother's i'm from Ukraine, great fan of this game too)
Byzantium and Spain forever!
Tell me please, what about Medieval total Realism... when?! me and my friends wait for it... is any information about when this modigication be ready...

[pike master]

will you have active siege towers?

what about the pike fix advertised by valiant champion at the .com?

and his halberdier overhaul?

[AnthoniusII]

Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

The year is 1066, the world is changing and a new order is rising. But who will be rising stars of this new era and who will fall?

Christendom is tragically split in schism. A bitter seed has been sown in the lands of Christendom where spiritual brothers are pitted against brothers, swords are raised and spears are sharpened. Will this enmity reap an equally bitter harvest?

Dar-al-Islam too is split between the party of Ali (Shia) and the Community of the Sunni based in the respective Caliphal seats of Cairo and Baghdad. Elsewhere Islam faces collapse especially in Al-Andalus where the third rival Caliphate in Cordoba has disintegrated into petty Taifa states concerned in their own self-interest and blind to the resurgence of the small Christian states in the north who are determined to undo the humiliation inflicted upon them 300 years ago. However, there is also renewal in Islam as well. A new power from the east is coming in the form of new converts to Islam. Will these Seljuk Turks revive Islam’s fortunes and restore unity and power to Sunni Islam?

On the shores of the Bosphorus, it seems that the ancient Roman Empire may have run its course. Dynastic exhaustion is approaching with the near death of its current Emperor who is weak, feeble, incompetent and childless. Its armies are weakened by successive intrigue and powerless against recent raids by the Seljuks. Its generals, coming from noble aristocratic families are seething at such poor leadership and may soon rebel. But is it too late? Can the Romans save their 1000 year old empire?

This is also the time where brilliant individuals come to the fore and create history. From the ranks of the Normans come two of the finest generals to grace Norman history. Though they exist in two different places at once (one in Normandy and the other in Southern Italy), they share the same drive, motivation and ambition to create their own destiny. One is an illegitimate bastard, the other, a warrior of low ranking. Will William the Bastard be a Conqueror? Will Robert Hauteville live up to his name of “Guiscard” the “wily”?

In a time such as this, there are many unpredictable things as well. From steppes of the east has come the scourge of God in the form of the Huns and the Avars. From these same steppes have come the ferocious Magyars who have now become a bastion of Christendom. There is always the possibility of another eruption from the mysterious east where tales abound of unnatural beings of great military brutality and swift retribution. Will civilisation be able to resist it the next time the endless steppes unleash a new terror?

All this and more in MTR: Age of Ambition!!

Proposed Factions:

Scottish
England (Normans)
Danes
Duchy of Southern Italy
Papal States
HRE
Poland
Rus
France
Crown of Aragon
Leon-Castile
Moorish Sultanate
Egyptian SultanateTurkish Sultanate
Romaion (Byzantines)
Serbs
Venice
Hungary
Mongols
Georgia-Sakartvelo
Cumans/Qipchaqs

Aims of MTR: AOA (or Meteora) if you want :2thumbsup:

Create a "realism" modification which will immerse players in whatever faction they choose. We aim to create unique factions with unique cultures with small added features that make a difference to gameplay. We want to create a medieval world the way it should be to cater to an individual's ambition, greed for gold, thirst for battle, glory and perhaps surprisingly enough...piety.

With the likes of Caius Britannicus and Wraithdt, you can be sure that the visual content of the modification will be first class from a lowly peasant unit to an elite royal bodyguard unit. We are looking for:

Researchers - the foundation upon which the modification must be built on. Their knowledge will ensure that we will stay on the right track to create an immersive world to play in. People with considerable knowledge for a particular faction and want to be a head researcher with their own research team and with responsibilities as preparing factions previews, co-ordinating with skinners and scripters and glory and babes..PM me. However, if there is a faction with a head researcher already, PM them, not me.

Graphic Designers - They are the ones who create the interface through which players can experience MTR: AOA. We're looking for people who are excellent with graphic design programs and want the chance to show off!

We invite, anyone and everyone who wants to participate in the creation of such a modification to notify either me (Kataphraktoi) or Achilles by PM.

Team:
Project Leader: Achilles

Most honoured Researchers:
Head of Polish Faction Research: Polak 966

Head of Serbia Faction Research: DukeofSerbia

Head of England/Norman (Normandy and Italy) Factions Research: Ignoramus

Head of Turkish Sultanate Research: Cebei (HOORAY!!)

Head of Moorish/African Research: Beauchamp

Head of Danish Research: Endre (or Ringeck)

IrishArmenian

Almogaver (Crown of Aragon)

Head of Danish/Scandinavian Research: Endre

Head of Byzantium/Romaion Research: Kataphraktoi
Byzantine Emperor

Head of Georgia Faction Research: Beka

Head of Rus Faction Research: Cadmus

Head of HRE Faction Research: SabreHRE and Cutepuppy

Eltrevo (Tuetonic Knights)

Randarkmaan (Fatimid, Ayyubids)

Faenaris (Crusading Orders)

Head of Rus Faction Research: Cadmus


Tech/Visual/Graphic Wizards:
Publius - Skinner/Modeller/Graphic Artist
Kataphraktoi (stand in project leader)
Wraithdt
Caius Britannicus
Dark89 (Coder)
Chigga
Silver Rusher

CONCEPT ART
Here are a list of concept art, they are under two sections:

I'll list Orda Khan's first, in honour of his gracious effort and time to provide us with these concepts:
https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol17ef.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol43sx.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongol31yc.jpg

https://img193.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1b1eu.jpg

https://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1a5eu.jpg

https://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mha1c1fy.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq012ic.jpg

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaqelite012pz.jpg (KIPCHACK ELITE)

https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qipchaq026vg.jpg (KIPCHAK)

https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgarinfantryman9un.jpg (VOLGA BULGARINFANTRYMAN)

https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulgararcher7zz.jpg (VOLGA BULGARARCHER)

https://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolnoyan6yh.jpg (MONGOL NOYAN)

https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hun016tk.jpg (HUN)

https://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolkhan1zs.jpg (MONGOL KHAN)

Wraithdt and Kataphraktoi's stuff
https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1066kat8ok.jpg (KATAPHRAKTOI 1060S)

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghulamcavalry0rh.jpg (GHULAM CAVALRY)

https://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=varangianguard4om.jpg (VARANGIAN GUARDS 11TH-14TH CENT)

https://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversionb3kj.jpg (KLIBANOPHORI VERSION A)

https://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=klibanophoriversiona4ve.jpg (KLIBANOPHORI VERSION B)

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tagmaticthematickat3rv.jpg (TAGMATIC KATAPHRAKTOI)

https://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turcopole2jp.jpg (TURCOPOLE)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg (EXCUBITORES)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Norman_Knight.jpg (NORMAN KNIGHT)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Futtawa_prev.jpg (ADDED FUTUWWA..hopefully this works)

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/JHI_prev_04.jpg NEW JANISSARY HEAVY INFANTRY - RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Men-at-Arms_Catholic_prev02.jpg DRAFT OF MEN AT ARMS

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gothicmaafinalsj7.jpg GOTHIC MEN AT ARMS

https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6527/hashishinmonosmlyy2.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hashishinmonosmlyy2.jpg) HASHASHIN

https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?i...oplitaifm0.jpg Thematikoi Hoplitai

https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?i...toxotaiwe9.jpg Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai and Thematikoi Toxotai

This mod was my insiration as a M2TW fan. MTR was a quide for me as a mod developer.
After all these years i am proud to say that atleast Romans are now as they should back then.

https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9885/011c.png
https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8437/011d.png