Hosrehair and red paint

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

An archaeologist specialising in the Roman military told me yesterday Manchester University has determined that the Romans did not have a vivid red dye that would take to horsehair, because its round, and that the most likely thing would be the use undied crests and tails.

I'm currently trying to track down some documentation on this, I didn't think to ask at the time, but I thought you'd like to hear about it.

I'll let you know what I find out.

[Olaf The Great]

An archaeologist specialising in the Roman military told me yesterday Manchester University has determined that the Romans did not have a vivid red dye that would take to horsehair, because its round, and that the most likely thing would be the use undied crests and tails.

I'm currently trying to track down some documentation on this, I didn't think to ask at the time, but I thought you'd like to hear about it.

I'll let you know what I find out.I heard of this too, and I would support changing the red horsehair, and replacing them with some other color
(white and black stripes mabye?)
This also reminds me, didn't Roman centuries have the standard bearer,the centurion, and that other guy(forgot what its called)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Red is in the pictorial record, Pomopeii, for example. We have to assume that the red paint stands in for a close natural colour Red Roan seems most likely.

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatcolor/coat16.jpg

This is, of course, assuming that Red Roan was reasonably common in ancient Rome or one of the provences. I'm assuming it was, I can't think of a reason not.

[Comrade Alexeo]

I'm a Roman reenactor, so I can check with my legion to see if they know where the red came from.


The Roman ranking system was as follows:

Milites Gregarii - common soldier

Immunis - specialized soldier; priest, armourer, etc.

Tesserarius - Guard Sergeant
Cornicen - Horn player

Optio - Second-in-command of a century
Signifer - Cohort standard bearer
Aquilifer - Legion Eagle Bearer

(these next are all centurion ranks)
Hastatus Posterior
Hastatus Prior
Princeps Posterior
Princeps Prior
Pilus Posterior
Pilus Prior - "First File" NOT "First Spear"; commander of the first century of the first cohort (double-strength)

Tribuni Angusticlavi - Equestrian Tribunes
Praefectus Castorum - Camp Prefect
Tribunus Laticlavus - Senatorial Tribune
Legatus - General; usually a senator, occasionally also a governor

[Wardo]

One word: Blood.

Romans dyed the hair with Gaullish blood. :idea2: :2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm a Roman reenactor, so I can check with my legion to see if they know where the red came from.

Which Legion? I may have heard of you.

You'll probably find the answer will be "We never thought about it." My friend said Manchester was one of the few places to actually look at this sort of thing and that up until now-ish people just took red plumes for granted.

Oh, what's a Guard Sergant in English?

Colour Sergent?

[Comrade Alexeo]

Legio II Triana Fortis. We're not particularly large, but you can see our website in my signature.


If you're asking if a tesserarius was on the same level as a color sergeant, in terms of duties and actual purpose and so forth, then I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". A tesserarius was not an purely honorary position; rather, when the legion was encamped in a fort, as they were every night in hostile territory for example, I believe (though I'm not 100% sure) that a random grouping of legionaries was assigned to watch duty for the night, and they were given a kind of roll-call sheet of some sort. During the night, at any time at his own discretion, the tesserarius would walk around the camp to each of the legionaries who had been assigned to watch duty and collect the roll-call sheets from each of the guards. If he happened upon a legionary who had fallen asleep, he didn't wake him up, but rather just moved on to the next guy...

...meaning if you woke up in the morning with your little roll-call sheet still in hand, then you'd have a terrifically large pit in your stomach because your dereliction of duty meant your almost certain death.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ah, I remember those guys.

A colour Sergent or equivilant is the NCO in charge of a Platoon, as oppossed to a Sergent who's usually in charge of a Support Section.

that's in the British Army.

Tesserarius is really more like a Corporal, although I've always thought that making direct comparisons is pointless, really.

The Centurian being a case in point.

[Quintus Valerius]

Quite so. Many people have a tendency (which is quite understandable) of viewing centurions as sergeants/sergeant majors, when they were considered (by modern standards) as something of the equivalent of company commanders (i.e. captains).

Nevertheless, as Wigferth Ironwall points out, such comparisons are tenuous, to say the least.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well the Centurion is really both Sergent Major and Company Commander. So niether modern term is accurate. This is my major problem with many modern translators making texts "more accessable" by changing the names of the functionaries and soldiers. Penguin is particually bad with this.

The idiotic thing is that it assumes an understanding of a modern army!

[Comrade Alexeo]

Well unfortunately nobody in my Legion has been able to give a really satisfactory answer on how the crests were red. "They just were" is pretty much the only conclusion.