Can you not keep 1.2 diplomacy in EB 0.8?

[Dayve]

I am of the opinion that diplomacy in 1.5 is worse than diplomacy in 1.2 and 1.0, combined.

Just as an example today, i'm playing 1.5 with RTR platinum, but i've played BI and vanilla 1.5 also and it's the same, and if we thought that diplomacy was non-existant in 1.2, then no word exists to describe how non-existant it is in 1.5. So anyway, playing 1.5 today as the Romans and getting frustrated. Obviously i was at war with the Greeks as you start off at war with them, kicked them off the peninsula and out of Sicily, and now, 30 years later, they have 1 city left, Rhodes... So i think to myself, ok, i'll give them 10k and offer a ceasefire. They tell me they cannot accept. I conquer the two cities on Crete, offer them to the Greeks in return for ceasefire and trade rights, they cannot accept. Offered them all the money in my treasury, over 100k, for a ceasefire and trade rights... No deal. It doesn't matter what you offer the AI, it will never accept a ceasefire. It would rather be destroyed than accept a ceasefire with you.

But it doesn't only happen with factions that YOU declared war on... It happens with factions who declare it on you. Carthage blockaded a port... It gave me an excuse to invade Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica... I take them and ask for ceasfire. No deal. Frustrated, i land several armies in Africa and take Carthage, Adrumento and that city to the left of Carthage, their 3 major populated money making troop recruitment cities... I occupy them, don't destroy buildings, and then offer the 3 cities back to Carthage in return for a ceasefire and trade rights. No deal. I wait a turn and offer them the 3 cities, all the cities on Sicily, Sarinia and Corsica for a ceasefire. NO DEAL! They had some arid desert cities left and a few in southern Spain, why would they not accept this offer of their empire back and a ceasefire?

Gaul... They blockade a port... Gives me an excuse to invade northern Italy. I take northern Italy, offer a ceasefire and trade rights. No deal. I send several armies through Gaul, sacking and burning every city they own in Gaul, even their capital, and i leave them absolutely crippled economically and militarily... I offer back northern Italy, 200k and a ceasefire. NO DEAL!

I try to swap map information with a faction in the far east of the map that will never come into contact with me... NO DEAL! I try to buy it... NO DEAL! I try to offer it FOR FREE! NO DEAL! I try to offer it for free and give them 100k, NO DEAL!

And if all that wasn't enough, nobody will ally theirselves with you in 1.5 diplomacy. Ask all you want, offer them the world on a golden plate with a sidesalad made from $20 bills, and they will tell you an alliance is not a good thing.

Can diplomacy be kept as it is in 1.2, is it hardcoded, and if the answers to those two questions are no and yes in that order, is there a 1.5 diplomacy guide out there because i'm about ready to use RTW as a frisby.

[fallen851]

Do I sense another CA love-fest?

[Cheexsta]

Diplomacy in RTW is hardcoded. We'll have to live with it, unfortunately.

[fallen851]

This reminds me of why the last time I played RTW, I simply stomped everyone who crossed my path and never once built a diplomat, spy, or assassin.

I wonder if very hard has anything to do with the diplomacy? Are you playing on very hard?

[amritochates]

While stating your situation, you have regrettably not specified any of the game settings or the current situation vis-à-vis the number of provinces you control or whether you are the dominant faction- all factors that have an effect on diplomatic maneuvers.

The reason I am stating this is because even I am playing RTR-PE 1.5 and I have faced no problems so far with regard to diplomacy. Perhaps the reason you are encountering this is because you are using vanilla tactics for RTR, for example by offering a 1000 talent single payment to my request for map information I haven’t had a single refusal till date.

Also with regards to protectorates and ceasefires, they occur naturally over a period of time if no geographical contact exists between the factions, otherwise according to a post by CA they are granted only if you are sieging all their settlements and have significant armies within their borders.

If such guidelines are followed I personally rarely have faced problems with diplomacy. Also I always play as H/H and am a defensive player and never rush.

Hope this helps.~:cheers:

[AngryAngelDD]

i have to agree to amritochates

the diplomacy problems reported by Dayve might come from an angressive style of playing. (at least in RTR PE 1.6)
after a while even the AI offers ceasefires to me, regardless of whether i attacked them or they attacked me.
for example the gauls: they attacked me after i captured Arriminium and Arretium from rebels. I beat their invading armies in my land some times and avoid to move into their territory. after some turns, they decide not to cross the border again, and some turns further they offered me peace...even they have no other wars to fight and have plentiful units.


after all the years of rtw experience i never really figured out how the diplomacy/relationships works.
but it SEEMS to me, that the relationship in the eyes of the AI is largely based on threatening of their borders, the movement in/through their territory and whether their settlements are besieged or not.
the overall military power seems to be less important to them.

[Foot]

This may be a problem with core values being set too high in vanilla.EB will make sure that such things are tested asmuch as possible.

Foot

[Dayve]

I did play defensively until i realised that no matter how considerate i was they still weren't going to accept anything i offered, so then i just started exterminating and razing cities to try and scare them into ceasefires but that didn't work either so i don't see what i am supposed to do. I'm playing VH/M by the way.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Did you set up things before you started the game? I mean the diplomatic situation?

We are setting both the faction stances at the start of the game, as well as the core attitudes towards every faction. So we hope that fine tuning both of those things will help the situation. If you are playing 074 on a 1.5 build right now, it won't take much of this into effect at all - just a very simple version of it.

[mcsquared]

I agree with Davye comments. I played RTRPE 1.5 and now 1.6 and have found the diplomacy extremely frustrating. I am playing the Ptolemics and started out at war with the Greeks, Macedon and the Seleucids. I offered them ceasefires early on and was refused. After about 5 years the Greeks and Macedon offered me a ceasefire, not because of what I'd been doing but because of their squabbles. I got an offer from the Seleucids after taking several of their cities; I accepted but they attacked again almost immediately. I 've also denied subsequent ceasefire requests. In summary, it appears that any offers for creasefires have to originate with the other factions; they just don't pay attention to your offers. As far as you getting a faction to become a Protectorate, forget it! I've had it happen ONCE in about 10 different games!

[Obelics]

I know Ai is hardcoded and there is nothing to do, but this is my experience:
Playing, with 1.2 i got a lot of protectorates, and i was never betrayed (and it was really funny to have a pair of faction being your protects), if you become protectorate, sometime the Ai mantain its protectorate with you, but playing vanilla BI (I play a lot this), i dont remember to have gained a Protectorate, and i have some absurd requests of becoming protectorate, and if i accept, in the next turn, AI betray me and attack, I also tryed some 1.5 mods like RTRPE and there is no loyalty, the AI always ask you to become protectorate, and if you accept they attack the same, i never obtained a protectorate in BI1.6 and in my tryout with rtw 1.5 mods. It seems that in 1.6/1.5 diplomacy is a complete Kaos for me.
Anyway i could be wrong, but these are my impressions so far.
cheers!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Has anyone who has had no loyalty actually started the game with a high core attitude rating between the two factions where loyalty is expected? I don't think we have lots of diplomatic testing results yet for EB in 1.5, but I've played some as Epeiros for quite a while and I had no bad experiences yet. Except that the Romans (who didn't like me - really) refused to become a protectorate till their last breath left their bodies.

[stalin]

Well the VH campaign difficulty means that all gonna gang up on you or it wouldn't be very hard.

[mcsquared]

From what I've been told on V/H the AI gets 40K extra in money each turn. That's the only difference.

[noobtastic]

From what I've been told on V/H the AI gets 40K extra in money each turn. That's the only difference.
I believe it is 10k. There is no difference in AI 'skill', they just use cheats that help them. Sadly, they just spend it on the worst units.
I don't believe you can maintain 1.2's Diplomacy in 1.5. Different version, but you would have thought that they would have made the diplomacy better as opposed to worse. :inquisitive:

[Sarkiss]

I did play defensively until i realised that no matter how considerate i was they still weren't going to accept anything i offered, so then i just started exterminating and razing cities to try and scare them into ceasefires but that didn't work either so i don't see what i am supposed to do.
did you notice that diplomat's influence (or whatever it called in this case) matters? im talking of 1.5.
if your diplomat failed to get an agreement then he loses one of the influence wreaths. is he succeeded however, than he is getting one. it is also important to think about how reasonable your proposal is and consider who you actually negotiating with.
i.e. if your diplomat has influence of 3 while opposing diplomat or a family member has an influence of 5. then it doesn't look good. in this circumstnces your chances to fail are raising drastically! even if you just ask them for a trade rights! i wouldn't deal with them at all hence in case of failure my diplomat loses his abilities to persuade. it is better to deal with an opponent who is less skillful in negotiation than your diplomat. even better when you don't have to ask for anything and they come to you. so you have a choice of accepting/refusing a proposal. i had a diplomat with influence of 3 once. he lost all his negotiating skills in no time! it become 0! all i was doing is asking for a trade rights + map info exchange.:wall:
so:
1. never rush with your diplomat activities.:laugh4:
2. only propose/negotiate if you are absolutely sure that the outcome will be positive. unless you don't mind being turn down and your diplomat being demoted.
3. make sure your diplomat is superior in negotiating skills (influence wreath).

hope it helps.

[Dayve]

I shall try it Sark, but it's impossible for me to get a diplomat with high influence you see... I have 4 in my current campaign... One in Africa, one in Gaul, one in Germany (they are allies of mine, they asked for it, not me) and one in the far east, and all 4 have 0 reafs and traits like 'undiplomatic' and 'discourteous', and if you look at other diplomats on the map with a spy, they also have these traits... 1.5 makes diplomats useless not just for the human but for the AI too.

[mcsquared]

"even if you just ask them for a trade rights!"

I've NEVER had a neutral faction turn down trade rights with me. I think your diplomat could be one step removed from a hyena and the other faction would agree to trade rights! There is one caveat, however, in 1.5 or 1.6, if you have gotten a refusal for anything from a particaular faction, say an alliance, you will get turned down for anything if you ask during the same turn. After the next turn you can ask for trade rights again and get them.

[mcsquared]

I forgot to mention that just for fun, while playing the Ptolemics, at the beginning of the game, I asked for alliances with every neutral faction. I was turned down by all but the Romans! I also didn't notice any difference when my diplomat "negotiated" with another faction's diplomat or ANY of that factions people be they faction leaders, cities or just captains. Maybe CA finally realizes that the changes to the diplomacy in 1.5 and 1.6 suck, they left diplomats out of Alexander entirely! hah!:laugh4:

[O'ETAIPOS]

AI is not accepting ceasefire if they have more troops, no matter how crappy - only number matter. Also core attitudes play huge role so some factions will not negotiate with some others no matter what occasion.

[Dayve]

Right, i have started a new campaign on H/M as the Romans and changed my way of playing.

From the start, i acquired trade rights with the Gauls, Iberians, Cartheginians, Illyrians and Macedonians with no problem at all. I never left my starting borders with any armies or spies and never attacked anything, not even rebels. After about 4 years of no action between me and the Greeks, they asked for a ceasefire which i granted. Then i asked for trade rights which they granted. The Germans have come to me with an offer of alliance which they did exactly the same thing in my last game.

The Cartheginains attacked the Greeks in Sicily, took Syracuse from them and have taken Rhegium from them. (Yes, the Carthies have expanded into Italy, shock horror) At this point i started to fund the neutral Greeks with about 2k each turn, in return for them attacking the Cartheginians who i am neutral to. I also have been funding the Iberians to attack Carthage, and they have eliminated their cities in Iberia altogether.

After i noticed 3 full stack Cartheginian armies in southern Italy, i decided i should expand a little incase of war since i had only 3 cities, so i laid siege to Ariminum. Gaul had taken Arretium, so i sent a diplomat and negotiated a deal where they gave me Arretium and i gave them 11k. Success! Arretium was mine, Ariminum surrendered without a fight. The Gauls then laid siege to the city they just sold so i'm now at war with them BUT i have been entirely defensive. I have attacked only when they have crossed my borders, and i have sent no aggressive force over to their borders, not even spies or assassins. They asked for a ceasefire after i whooped them a few times but then declared war again so i'm still at war with them now, killing off an army that tries to raid Arretium every 4 turns or so.

In the south, Illyria had landed a tiny force outside of Corfinium and laid siege to it. They took the city and i bought it from them for 6k. I didn't bribe it, i actually bought it from them as in demand the city and offer 6k for it. I am still neutral with them. I saw a Cartheginian army marching toward Paestum so i quickly laid siege to it so that they couldn't spread their influence further in Italy. I took it and put my army outside the city. The Cartheginians attacked my army, and after a battle which i almost lost, i asked for a ceasefire which they accepted, which i see as a success, even if it doesn't last. I call this the 15 minute war, since from start to finish, the war lasted the time it took for me to win the battle, which was 15 minutes give or take a minute or two.

After i had funded the Greeks around 20k, i asked for an alliance, which they accepted. Another success! The alliance seems now to be broken for some reason, we are just neutral instead of allies, but still there has been no physical fighting between me or Greece so far.

All in all it's been a good game. The Italian peninsula has seen much action and is has been home to 5 different factions so far. (Gauls, Romans, Greeks, Illyrians and Cartheginians), and southern Italy is still in the hands of the Greeks and Carthies so it's proving to be a very interesting game.

So it is all about the way you play. You be aggressive from the start with ANYBODY, and diplomacy will be non existant. You be defensive and considerate, diplomacy will be somewhat bearable and realistic.

[Lusted]

The main thing to remember on 1.5 is to play on H campaign difficulty and not VH, just look at the difference in your 2 cmapaigns Dayve, the first one on VH where no one would accept anything, and the 2nd on hard where the ai did accept your offers. THe ai on VH is set up so it wont accept your offers so you have a hard time in the campaign, i find hard is the best difficulty as it allows you to still make offers the ai will accept whist also giving the ai the cheating cash bonus to make things hard.
And unit recruitment costs are perhaps the biggerst factor in deciding what units the ai will spend its money on.

[-Praetor-]

So it is all about the way you play. You be aggressive from the start with ANYBODY, and diplomacy will be non existant. You be defensive and considerate, diplomacy will be somewhat bearable and realistic.

I`ve also noticed that symptoms on my campaigns, even when I play on VH...

So, maybe the Diplomacy is not alltogether dumb as we all think... nooone would make an alliance with someone you know it will make an agression to you... well, neither the AI.

Maybe we should study the diplomacy a little bit more, and try to understand it. In my EB game, playing VH-M, as Arvernii I`m allied with the Aeduii (which I kicked to their possesions in cisalpine gaul), iberia and sweboz... and I`ve played a "no first move" policy in my wars...

[Avicenna]

Whoops.

I attacked Macedon in my RTRPE campaign.

:no:

[Musopticon?]

I...eh, I used the excuse of Greeks taking offence over Pontus' attack on Sinope to break my Alliance with them. The "should we support the attackers?"(or somesuch) screen popped up and I sided with Pontus.

...what? I needed Peloponnesus for my anti-Roman offence! And they would have backstabbed me the instant I moved to take over the Illyrian provinces anyway.

Must be karma that the campaign died on reinforcement-ctds a turn later. Every town in Peloponnesus has a couple of units outside the city walls and I can't attack without being attacked by the reinforcements too. And I need the army, because Chalkis has a Macedonian fullstack ready to conquer a Epirote-free peninsula should I choose to autofight and lose, the Athenian army and mine are so equal that I nearly alwyas either lose or have horrible casultaties when autofighting.

Meh, I'll wait for 0.8.

[sedlacekj]

I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the most useful things my diplomats do for me is to bribe eleutheroi units which I march into my cities and disband to create a larger population for creating more units.

[Atreidis]

What I find annoying in my Greek campaign is that no Eleuptheroi town accepts a bribe. I mean none!! Where is this world going i money don't bring gates down?