Medieval 2: Total War Designer Diary #1 - Introducing the New Diplomatic System [Archive]

Ituralde

07-20-2006, 08:37

Just found this linked over at the .com.
Wanted to share it with you before I read, gonna post my oppinion about it afterwards:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/medieval2totalwar/news.html?sid=6154343&q=total%20war

Should also make for a really good addition to the post below me, but I'd rather start a new topic so that everyone notices it.

Well, my firs impression is quite good. Although the lack of things to haggle about taken from the Diplomacy screens is a bit meager, if they fulfill everything they have mentioned in the article and it actually works in the game, then M2:TW will really have made a good progress. I especially like the part where you can tailor the Diplomacy to the needs of another faction. You need military aid? Desperately? Well, I'll give it to you, but I'm gonna make you bleed for it! :2thumbsup: (Don't we have an 'evil' smilie here?)

Cheers!

Ituralde

P.S: Note that there are also screenshots of the Diplomacy menu available!

Ignoramus

07-20-2006, 08:45

Thanks a lot Ituralde.

r johnson

07-20-2006, 08:50

[/QUOTE]These points include the AI faction's military and financial power, its reputation, its relationship with your faction, and anything that the AI is known to be actively seeking from you. After all, there is no point in asking a very poor faction for a lot of money, as that's something that it may not be able to comply with. If that same faction however had lots of military forces, perhaps it could be asked for assistance in a war-- so when you deal with the French diplomatically, you will hear a Frenchman delivering the dialogue.
[/QUOTE]

I really like the diplomatic side to MTW2, it sounds like it's going to be alot more realistic. Although the idea of accents would be pointless for myself as i don't have any speakers.

Anardil

07-20-2006, 09:29

Yeah I don't care what they do with the sound, as I turn it off anyway. I get tired of listening to the same things over and over again. As for diplomacy, it will be nice to have to AI act smarter when it comes to that. They need to stop having AI that asks for a ceasefire and demands their provinces be returned when they are getting owned.

Alien_Tortoise2345

07-20-2006, 10:49

Good. Saves me having to open another window to check whose allied with who.

zakalwe

07-20-2006, 10:56

I think a good point made elsewhere about this news is that while this clears up the issues of feedback and understanding, there is nothing here to suggest that Diplomacy will be any more useful than in RTW. Will alliances matter?

Furious Mental

07-20-2006, 11:00

Hopefully promises of military assistance from the AI will actually lead them to send armies to assist you, and failure to fulfil a promise to the AI will generate antagonism.

4th Dimension

07-20-2006, 12:29

Hopefully promises of military assistance from the AI will actually lead them to send armies to assist you, and failure to fulfil a promise to the AI will generate antagonism.
Yes basicaly only time AI would help you is if you fought someone right beside their army. And you would need to create that situation.

Nada

07-20-2006, 14:22

Any improvement to Rome’s diplomacy system will be appreciated but I am wondering what if any affect agents may play in the A.I’s outlook toward you.

If your assassins can not be seen destroying buildings or assassinating the blue bloods then their affect on diplomacy may be nothing but what about Merchants or Priests?

If you have these folks in their territory I wonder if the A.I. will draw the logical conclusions and realize the root of their problems?

NagatsukaShumi

07-20-2006, 15:08

Looks to have taken a very EUII like approach with "reputation" and what not, but it certainly looks alot more promising, especially if the AI uses it properly, which will obviously be key over what you do with it.

mfberg

07-20-2006, 15:48

The screen did not show a listing of your allies and enemies, only his. I need to have a little reminder from time to time of who I am officially at war with to include that in my negotiations.

mfberg

DukeofSerbia

07-20-2006, 17:17

Mount Suribachi

07-20-2006, 17:30

Well about time too - I've been banging on for years about the diplomacy system from SMAC being light years ahead of TW diplomacy, and that game was released 8 years ago.

However, as other posters have alluded too, a feedback & reputation system is all well and good, but how will the AI behave? Will they still demand 5800 florins a turn for the next 7 turns in return for your map? Will your diplomat still lose reputation points when the AI makes these ridiculous demands? Will alliances still be as worthless as they have been previously?

DukeofSerbia

07-20-2006, 17:37

Diplomacy work in EU2 almost perfect and it seems that CA decided to use what already work.
But who knows?

4th Dimension

07-20-2006, 19:40

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/199/reviews/931592_071906_screen002.jpg

I don't see any difference between RTW and M2 TW in diplomacy section, except few things.

And Byzantine coat of arms is apsolutely the same as modern Serbian.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cs-sr_pr.html
I allready pointed it. Now for a I soppouse more real Byz flag
http://www.oramaworld.com/images/flags/4b_300.jpg
As you see, on Byz flag are ß not C (or S (С) iin Cyrilic letters.). We Serbs modified that banner and put C instead of ß. The Byz should mean something like "King of Kings, ruling over Kings". At least that's what I found out. I would like to know if others know a diferen't meaning. And about the meaning of Serb one, you will have to wait antill we agree what excatly do we mean with four S, which will take us some time. Let's say 300 years?

And I agree with Mount Suribachi, all this is good to us as all those trailers were. Thay were all in all worthless in judging excatly how will AI behave. Untill we buy the game we won't know.

Basileus

07-20-2006, 20:02

Sounds good and all but untill i see evrything myself im not getting to excited.

Mooks

07-20-2006, 20:19

I think they couldve done a lot better. I heavily doubt they read any of our diplomacy threads.

Bob the Insane

07-20-2006, 20:37

Looks nice, but as has perviously been stated, it is not so much setting up deals that is the issue so much as to how the AI factions react to those deals and whether their responses have any connection to their situation.

Sueing for peace and attacking in the same turn, betraying an ally when you are losing battles on other fronts. Stuff like that...

As for the Worsening Relations thing, it sounds like the Transgression warnings we already have in RTW. The question is will we be able to work out what this supposed transgression is this time...

A.Saturnus

07-20-2006, 20:51

Kralizec

07-20-2006, 21:40

The designer definitely focusses too much on secundary points. That you'll know when you offended the other as a nice touch but it's pointless if the offended acts in the same random way factions do in ROME. It's not enough to give the player more options, these options have to make an actual differences. In ROME, whatever you do a faction close to you will attack you sooner or later, even if its trade is dependent on you and it is at war with three other factions.
The diplomatic behavior of the AI in ROME is that of a madman. If that doesn't change, diplomatic options are a waste.

Agreed. There's absolutely no connection between how the AI behaves diplomaticly and how it behaves outside diplomacy, and the situation on the campaign map. Factions down to one province wouldn't accept peace even for money, or even demand that you become protectorate. If you were an AI's protectorate, they would often still attack you regardless, ditto if you're paying huge tributes to them. There's absolutely no coherency.

edyzmedieval

07-20-2006, 21:46

Not too impressed. I think it's okay.
I'm still buying Medieval TW II.

Tamur

07-20-2006, 22:30

Many making the same good point, that feedback is one step but the core AI is what will really make this work. I can imagine it's insanely difficult coding but, with my title being what it is, I have to be hopeful.

That said, all the writing I did for the diplomacy doc on Rome, though it wasn't a waste, should have included a lot of disclaimers. I asked a lot of questions, both on many boards and privately to CA staff, about the weird behaviours (like refusing protectorate even with a cash bonus and after having their empire cut in half) and got no anwers. So I made a lot of guesses.

Perhaps there were no answers because, for Rome, the answers would have been alarming?

At any rate, here's hoping for M2:TW

Divinus Arma

07-20-2006, 23:55

I agree with all here: If the diplomacy does not connect with the Campaign AI, then the diplomacy is worthless. And if the campaign AI is poor, then diplomacy is made further worthless.

I regarded RTW diplomacy as a complete failure. I never used it and considered attempts by the AI to engage in diplomacy as an annoyance.

This is promising, but everything hinges on the AI. To play this game, I will have to buy a new computer (since mine just fried). Because of this, I am certainly going to wait for Orgah reviews on AI before I go throw away $1,000.00 on a new computer just to play a TW game. (Since I play nothing else)

At least we can enjoy the orgy of screenies that gamespot provides us.

Doug-Thompson

07-21-2006, 00:31

After reading the article, I also got the impression that CA thinks the biggest problem with the diplomatic system was a lack of transparency. Many of us, meanwhile, think the big problem was a lack of sanity.

I will be glad to see more of exactly what's going on, however.

Ituralde

07-21-2006, 12:10

Just wanted to let you know that CA has added the Developer Diary I linked in my first post to www.totalwar.com. While not having compared them word for word they seem to contain the same text, except for the last paragraph:

What’s next here?

For us, adding in more speech than we’d originally planned, and then… tuning and testing – Something that the mod community may well also be able to dabble in without too much issue.

Don't know what to make of that last statement though. Does it mean that the diplomacy sytem will be easily moddable or does it mean that they will test and tune and once they realize that they've run out of time hope that the modding community can continue their work? :inquisitive:

Cheers!

Ituralde

Mount Suribachi

07-21-2006, 12:51

It reads to me that it will be possible to mod the diplomatic speeches.

edyzmedieval

07-21-2006, 13:13

It reads to me that it will be possible to mod the diplomatic speeches.

Exactly. Not a big deal. I was hoping diplomacy to be modded... :shame:

A.Saturnus

07-21-2006, 18:42

Rufus

07-21-2006, 19:15

BeeSting

07-21-2006, 19:50

From reading the article, it seems they've improved the feature for us to know how the AI faction feels about the player's faction but nothing about fixing the AI's suicidal diplomatic policies such as taking on world and declaring war upon factions that are 20 times more powerful than it. RTW diplomatic AI does not consider before going to war the economic benefits/loss for fighting a faction. And it does not seem to recognize that it is losing. It would be down to its last city and still tell you to "Fk off!" even when you offer peace out of pitty. C'mon even the suicidal japanese empire was not that stupid. you then wake up to reality that this is indeed a game and you are arguing with a horrible AI script.

BeeSting

07-21-2006, 19:53

IrishArmenian

07-21-2006, 20:38

Sounds really good.

Myrddraal

07-21-2006, 21:09

I think some of you are wrong when you say there is nothing to indicate that Diplomacy will be usefull and affect the game. I think this implies that:

AI factions can now have their view towards you altered in degrees. This means the player’s behaviour in diplomacy will actually effect what they have to face in their campaign.

We then applied the same philosophy of exposing a shift in stance from the actual act of diplomacy, out into the whole faction relations system that tracks what every faction thinks of every other faction. When things either break down between two factions, or relations improve – the player is notified.

I also think that a knowledge of how strong an alliance is will help us to know if we really can expect any help or if they are just waiting to betray us. I think this will clarify a lot of the seemingly random behavior.

In any case, I hope so.

Don't know what to make of that last statement though. Does it mean that the diplomacy sytem will be easily moddable or does it mean that they will test and tune and once they realize that they've run out of time hope that the modding community can continue their work? :inquisitive:

It reads to me that it will be possible to mod the diplomatic speeches.

Again, I'm not sure you right:

and then… tuning and testing – Something that the mod community may well also be able to dabble in without too much issue.

To me it reads the mod community may be asked to help with tuning and testing. I don't know how you could think this is a bad thing Ituralde... It's something I beg CA to carry out. A small hand picked group of testers, who have experience of how the totalwar series works in detail would be a great thing.

Ituralde

07-22-2006, 11:56

Well, I guess that would be the third interpretation for that sentence and that's exactly why I didn't quite get its meaning. I was just throwing a couple of random guesses there, which does not mean that I believe in any of them.
My hope is though, that they meant the easy modability with that statement.
And while I agree with you that working with some mod-members would certainly benefit the game, I think there are better ways to communicate a mod-maker beta-test than hiding it in such cryptic lines.

Cheers!

Ituralde

Lusted

07-22-2006, 12:57

For all of you worried that Ca are just focusing on graphical touch ups to diplomacy and not improving the core ai:

In Medieval II, the AI will not only remember previous dealings you've had with it but your dealings with other factions, too. It'll then base its stance towards you on all of those factors.

We're making the campaign map AI far more proactive than before. You'll find that your homeland will be attacked a lot more.

What's more, once your medieval empire becomes overwhelmingly powerful, you'll quickly find your rivals rallying together to oppose your expanding kingdom, a feature which the team hopes will make the game challenging from beginning to end

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=142571&skip=yes

Talking of the campaign map, there are new agents, improved diplomacy, and improved trade, as well as a host of new buildings added to the tech tree; new sabotage and espionage options,

http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/medieval2totalwar/news.html?sid=6144512&page=2&q=

The diplomacy system has been improved. We're going to give the player a lot more information about how the artificial intelligence feels both about them and about the offer on the table. However, at the same time the AI will take offence at insulting offers and will have a better memory of past dealings. You should be able to trust your allies, but only up to a point.

We're definitely committed to improving the AI on both the campaign map and battlefield and plan to make a significant step forward from Rome.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/medieval2totalwar/news.html?sid=6146146

We've also introduced a new recruitment system, a new enhanced system for the treatment of religion, enhanced diplomacy, new trade options, improved missions, improved sabotage and espionage, improved AI, new tech tree buildings and new agent characters.

http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/699/699515p1.html

Myrddraal

07-22-2006, 13:11

And while I agree with you that working with some mod-members would certainly benefit the game, I think there are better ways to communicate a mod-maker beta-test than hiding it in such cryptic lines.

That is very true, but here's hoping...

A.Saturnus

07-22-2006, 19:28

I also think that a knowledge of how strong an alliance is will help us to know if we really can expect any help or if they are just waiting to betray us. I think this will clarify a lot of the seemingly random behavior.

That depends. As Doug-Thompson's post that is now making my sig says, the problem of the diplomatic behavior of the AI was not just that it was acting randomly but that it was acting insanely. Degrees of strength of an alliance make only sense if the AI doesn't complete ignore it. In ROME the AI often could not resist blocking a port if it had a fleet at hand. The AI could often gain nothing of it and it broke alliances that were profitable just to seek a ceasefire in the next round. Knowledge about how strong the alliance is doesn't help if alliances are at risk due to obsessive-compulsive behavior.

B-Wing

07-22-2006, 23:46

And how about a "Make Demand" option for, "Get the h*#@! out of my kingdom!" for when the troops of a faction you're not at war with just sort of show up within your borders, and you don't want to attack them because you don't want full-out war.

Its always puzzled me that this option wasn't in RTW. If this request is made a diplomatic option in M2RW, I think it should NOT be considered highly offensive or very "demanding" of the faction it is being directed at. I'm sure the computer's seemingly pointless habit of marching their armies all through their neutral neighbors' territory was due to poor AI, so I think that M2TW should at least fix that problem or allow the player (and other factions) the option of requesting their removal when it happens, if not both.

If the computer has a legitimate reason to want to cross my borders that has nothing to do with attacking me, they should make a request for military access and be willing to offer something in return for it. Obviously, what they're willing to exchange should depend on how important is to them that they cross my borders without starting a war. Furthermore, I think that having troops inside the borders of a faction whom you have no military access with should automaticly weaken your relationship with that faction every turn you keep them inside. Its just not polite.

Ignoramus

07-24-2006, 11:06

I agree. The "Transgressions" in RTW were useless, and there was no point in asking for military access.

Doug-Thompson

07-25-2006, 06:13

I'm flattered, A. Saturnus. :bow:

sunsmountain

07-25-2006, 09:05

Transgressions resulted in them declaring war on me a few times, I can't exactly call that useless. As Romans I sometimes ask for military access if one of the senate missions is for some far away city that I have to get to fast.

It would be nice to be able to force their troops to leave your area if you send your diplomat to them. Usually perfectly good alliances are broken because the AI troops "felt like it" when they were next to your capital. Ouch.

Prince Cobra

07-25-2006, 11:30

It sounds well. However I will wait and see how the dilomacy acts...

Mount Suribachi

07-31-2006, 13:55

For all of you worried that Ca are just focusing on graphical touch ups to diplomacy and not improving the core ai:

Quote:
In Medieval II, the AI will not only remember previous dealings you've had with it but your dealings with other factions, too. It'll then base its stance towards you on all of those factors.

Quote:
We're making the campaign map AI far more proactive than before. You'll find that your homeland will be attacked a lot more.

So basically, it sounds the same as in RTW - except this time the AI will remember your previous actions towards you, then decide to attack you anyway. The current RTW PBEM game in the Throne Room is a prime example of this, totally suicidal behaviour by the AI, 1 and 2 province factions launching attacks on Rome.

I hope the AI is smarter, I really, really do. But having everyone declare war on you is not IMO the best way to make the mid-late game more challenging.