Ground War in Lebanon

[Divinus Arma]

Israel will Invade Southern Lebanon: Self-defense against a growing terrorist threat? Or is Israel pursuing unseen ambitions? Both?


Times Online July 21, 2006
Israel calls up reservists for push into Lebanon
By Times Online and Nicholas Blanford in Tyre, Lebanon

Israel called up five battalions of army reservists today and dropped leaflets across southern Lebanon warning civilians to leave towns and villages and head north towards Beirut as it prepared for a major ground offensive against Hezbollah positions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2280007,00.html

Lebanese Army will Stand with Hizballah: Does this make them a state sponsor of terror? Or are they protecting their sovereignty from a foreign invasion? Both?


Jul. 20, 2006 17:23
Lebanese Army may join forces with Hizbullah
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The Lebanese Minister of Defense warned Israel Thursday that if IDF ground forces are sent into southern Lebanon, Lebanese troops will fight along with the Hizbullah against Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291959920&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


So far, no word on potential expansion into Syria and Iran. However, this is highly calculated:


Iran's Destabilization of the Middle East
July 21st, 2006

The current conflict being fought on Lebanese soil caused the nation of Iran to achieve its immediate goal of diverting world attention away from its non-compliance on the nuclear issue. It successfully prevented condemnation from international leaders meeting at the G8 summit in regard to its continued uranium enrichment program. It also temporarily distracted world powers from focusing their attention on punishing Iran with sanctions in the UN Security Council.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5687


By Peter Brookes
Iran: Overplaying Its Hand?
July 20, 2006 11:42 AM EST
(Editorial)

While the world focuses on the smoldering conflict in the Middle East, the war’s instigator -- and puppeteer -- Iran must be pretty darn pleased with itself. While Iranian-backed Hezbollah jolts Israeli cities with rockets and Israeli forces ferret out terrorist militants across Lebanon, Iran has suffered nary a nick, verbally or otherwise.

Moreover, Tehran was skillfully able to divert attention from its nuclear (weapons) program, keeping its atomic aspirations out of the limelight at the G-8 summit last weekend in St. Petersburg, Russia.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16299.html

It seems that Iran has met with huge success with their plan to use Hizballah in provoking a war between Lebanon and Israel to distract the rest of the world from its nuclear ambitions.

I suspect that Israel is well aware of this and is making plans for a regional conflict, starting with strategic air assaults against Iran's know nuclear facilities, as well as the infrastructures of both Iran and Syria in a pre-emptive tactic to stall military response.

I highly suspect that this will grow much worse.

[yesdachi]

Lebanon better be getting a heck of a kickback from Iran for doing their dirty work and bringing so much destruction to their country.

I think Israel might gain some popularity, at least from the “west”, from this. I am noticing more people offering verbal support for Israel lately, I think as long as it is not our military being used Americans like to see terrorists getting attacked and care little about the collateral damage and although the mainstream media is crying about an imbalance in casualties I think most people are seeing the fact that less Israelis are dying than their enemies is a good thing.

On a cautionary note to Israel, I think they need to be alert as their military has not had a full blown “ground” operation is some time and as the US has found any prolonged action is not going to make them very popular with anyone.

[macsen rufus]

It seems that Iran has met with huge success with their plan to use Hizballah in provoking a war between Lebanon and Israel to distract the rest of the world from its nuclear ambitions.

Well, hardly -- EVERYONE is talking about Iran's nuclear programme in the context of events in Lebanon. Not exactly a distraction, is it?

I'm verging more towards Syria than Iran as the 'behind-the-scenes' culprits, after seeing some other threads highlighting how Hisballah and Tehran aren't as close as they used to be. Syria has treated Lebanon as its backyard for years, and has the recent humiliation to live down. What better way than provoke an Israeli invasion so they can "rescue" the Lebanese all over again?

Iran, through having helped found Hisballah, might well be the "obvious" culprit, but it is also the West's preferred culprit, as it would give just one more excuse to have a go.

Also, that quote above saying that Lebanese forces will fight "alongside" Hisballah looks highly suspect, as in agenda-driven. BBC sources show Lebanese govt asking BOTH Hisballah and Israel to ceasefire, and maybe meeting any Israeli invasion in battle, but NOT necessarily alongside Hisballah. I think there's more interpolation than quote at Jpost.

I'm surprised that Lebanese forces haven't already been mobilised against Israeli attacks. At the least you'd expect some AA cover for their civilian population?? On the other hand, I also suspect Hisballah are better armed than the Lebanese govt anyway. Even so, a sovereign nation defending its borders hardly qualifies as state sponsored terrorism, even if terrorists are also fighting the same invasion. Your enemy's enemy isn't necessarily your friend.


I highly suspect that this will grow much worse. ... on that you have my 100% agreement.

[Blodrast]

Question: pardon my ignorance, but why exactly does it make sense for Israel to push for a major ground offensive against Hesbollah ? Is there any reason to believe that Hesbollah will meet them head-on, like medieval battles ? Seems to me that only a guerilla war has been fought till now, with at most small-scale local confrontations, rather than an all-out clashing of large number of troops...

So, again, I ask, why exactly does it make sense for Israel to change the way it's been running the show so far ?

[Divinus Arma]

The aim of Israel in pursuing a ground operation in Southern Lebanon is such:

By deeply penetrating southern Lebanon and occupying the territory, Israel creates a buffer zone which lengthens the distance that Hizballah rockets must travel in order to successfully strike targets. After all, if Hizballah cannot operate in the Southern portion, it will be forced to operate from entral and northern areas of Lebanon. There is further benefit to this because the population of central and northern Lebanon is less sympathetic to Hizballah.

The difficulty comes in the actual occupation, wherein an insurgency akin to Iraq is inevitable. Despite this unpalatable situation, Israel would rather its soldiers face danger than its civilians. Israel can sustain an indefinite occupation while sustaining occupation casulaties with little disruption to its economy. This is politically undesirable, but something that Israeli politicians currently view as a necessity.

Of course, Israel can further gain if the people and government of Lebanon fail to support Hizballah. This is impossible if Hizballah operates from its southern stronghold, but far more likely in Central and Northern Lebanon. Christian elements will not be thrilled to see Shiite Muslims launching rockets from their neighborhoods.

[Tribesman]

Question: pardon my ignorance, but why exactly does it make sense for Israel to push for a major ground offensive against Hesbollah ?
It makes sense in so far as the air offensive ain't doing nothing really .
The Isrealis will push as far as the river , which will stop the attacks on Haifa but not on the northern towns , then they will sit there for a few years killing and getting killed , then they will withdraw and start all over again at square one .
But hey , they did say they wanted to turn the clock back 20 years .:shrug:

[spmetla]

One of the purporses is to stop allowing southern lebanon to be a rocket launch zone for Hezbollah. If Israel occupies fifteen or so miles of southern Lebanon then for the most part Hezbollah won't be able to fire rockets into Israel with the relative ease they've enjoyed so far.

I don't think the Lebanese army will engage the IDF unless they advance as far north as Beirut which is definatately not needed.

[Tribesman]

. Israel can sustain an indefinite occupation while sustaining occupation casulaties with little disruption to its economy.
No Divinus , even mobilisation of its forces gives a big hit to the Israeli economy ,(look at the run up to the war with Egypt) maintianing the troop levels and the extra cost of operations and occupation give a really big hit to the economy .

[Blodrast]

Cool, okay, thanks for the explanations.

It makes sense in so far as the air offensive ain't doing nothing really.

I guess I was wondering about this, too, i.e., why the strategy they've been using so far isn't good enough anymore (since, obviously, they have been trying to prevent Hesbollah from launching rockets at Israeli targets until now as well).

I see the logic behind them preferring their soldiers to take the hits rather than their civilians, but it seems to me like an actual occupation, efficient (i.e., dense) enough to prevent more launchings, would be _really_ expensive...
I see them being harrassed by tiny mobile Hesbollah groups all the time - again, guerilla all the way, in which case the Israeli army will more or less sit there and take casualties... sure, this will certainly reduce missile launchings, but it doesn't sound that great of a solution to me, since the costs might even be higher...

Moreover, how long does it make sense to occupy the territory ? Indefinitely ? Not feasible. The Hesbollah aren't just gonna go away, so what's gonna be different when the Israeli pull back ? Isn't it all just gonna start all over again, from square one ?

[Divinus Arma]

lets not forget that israel occupied southern leb for almost two decades.

[Beirut]

lets not forget that israel occupied southern leb for almost two decades.

I'm sure the Lebanese haven't forgotten. ~;)


Everyone out of Lebanon! :lebanon: Except the Lebanese!

[LeftEyeNine]

Why do everyone in the Middle East help Bush? Who said that he is hated?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here's something to consider, if Iran starts flexing its muscles the first thing the IDF will do is attack it Nuclear sites.

Looks like Iran's "master plan" will backfire. As to the Lebonesse army fighting alongside Hezbollah, well when terrorists are fighting a hostile force on their own turf they usually get re-labled.

Welcome to the new Arab-Isreali war people, stay back and keep your heads down.

Lets just hope it doesn't turn into WW III. (Or WW V, depending on how you look at it ~:( )

[Crazed Rabbit]

Question: pardon my ignorance, but why exactly does it make sense for Israel to push for a major ground offensive against Hesbollah ? Is there any reason to believe that Hesbollah will meet them head-on, like medieval battles ? Seems to me that only a guerilla war has been fought till now, with at most small-scale local confrontations, rather than an all-out clashing of large number of troops...

So, again, I ask, why exactly does it make sense for Israel to change the way it's been running the show so far ?

As I understand it, along with the points of others about a buffer zone, Israel's air force has not succeded in destroying Hezbullah, who have built a network of tunnels that is withstanding the bombardment, necessitating ground forces.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Here's something to consider, if Iran starts flexing its muscles the first thing the IDF will do is attack it Nuclear sites.
Not unless they have aquired an additional air-air refueling capability , which just leaves the Red Sea based submarine with its cruise missiles .
The limited number of missiles that can be launched and disbursed nature of the target sites means that option is a bit of a waste of time , apart from making the conflict a lot bigger .
I suppose the US could help them with the in flight refueling but that would mean the loss total of Iraq and probably the mid-east headquarters in Qatar for good measure .
Perhaps they should just start a regionwide war and say goodbye to all the oil .

[The Black Ship]

This whole "Lebanese army will stand with Hezbollah" mantra is so specious. Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, they even hold cabinet positions. Hezbollah is the occupying force in Southern Lebanon. If a political party of a country, with civil authority, with military authority over a large swathe of territory attacks a neighbouring country...how is it people can say that Lebanon didn't attack Israel?

Now, if Lebanon wants to declare Hezbollah "outside the law", not "part of us", then maybe they can show themselves truly innocent victims of naked aggression.

If Lebanon wants their sovereignty back, wants to show they had not part in attacking Israel they need to "stand against Hezbollah". It would be the shot heard round the world.

[kataphraktoi]

Are the lives of two Israeli soldiers worth that of civilian casualties? Hizbollah seems to think so, just give the soldiers back. Israel did not want to invade Lebanon in the first place. But to save face and look tough, they invaded Israel.

WhAt amazes me is that minority party like Hizbollah can start a war between two countries.

[scotchedpommes]

The Lebanese Defence Minister's statement is no surprise. If you consider that
Israel bombed army installations, killing soldiers, the desire to take action is
understandable. I don't doubt, however, that some believe he would be bound
to make such a announcement in any case.


Israel did not want to invade Lebanon in the first place.

Naturally I cannot state their intentions, but I would ask: if an invasion was not
intended, why would they not send in covert teams of commandos, [I am aware
that commandos have been in Lebanon since Wednesday] or even the agents of
their infamous intelligence service?

[Red Peasant]

Naturally I cannot state their intentions, but I would ask: if an invasion was not
intended, why would they not send in covert teams of commandos, [I am aware
that commandos have been in Lebanon since Wednesday] or even the agents of
their infamous intelligence service?

You are patently wrong. Israel has only just called up its reservists. If an invasion was planned then the Israelis would have performed this call-up weeks if not months ago and they would have been in Lebanon for the last two weeks at least.

[cunobelinus]

Wouldnt the hole of the middle east be solved of so many problems is they just wipe out the israel because they cause so many problems

[Major Robert Dump]

You guys crack me up.

Here we have Lebanon, a country who hates Syria and stood up against their occupation after a respected Lebanese mouthpiece for the people was assassinated, a mideast
country that is arguably one of the more favorable towards the west, a country who has a crap military that has its hands full already and isn't exactly in a situation to "weed out hezbollah" , a country that is a great candidate to bring over to our side, a country full of chrisitans

and now its going to be blown to sheet, and any civilians killed will
be brushed aside as "oh well we told them to leave"

I'm trying to figure out when the religious neocons and Isreal will realize that a little -- JUST A FRICKIN LITTLE -- self restraint can go miles in winning people to your side, rather than thrashing a country and then wondering why its civilians hate you

So how would you like it if, in the middle of July, you had no fresh water or air conditioning, couldnt go to work so you could pay your bills, and had to pull up stakes and relocate willy nilly because of something being done by someone you didn't even vote for.

so I hope, just for the sake of optimism, that Isreal takes its finger off the trigger and tries to work with Lebanon so we just might avoid a WWIII. I hope. I doubt it, though, kind of like when Isreal would do things like blow up palestenian infrastructure and government offices, yet demand they do more to fight the terrorists. Kind of hard to do when all your computers and file cabinets just got blown up and half your population is out of water, eh?

I'm starting to sound like Pat Buchanan

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now, now, MRD, you've been warned before for talking sense in the Backroom...

:2thumbsup:

[Leet Eriksson]

words..

Sorry i had to cut the quote short, but really awesome post.

Now i wonder, why did isreal not take the intiative and coordinated with lebanon to take out hizbolla instead of taking the gung-ho method?

[Divinus Arma]

Before everybody starts getting on their knees for MRD, as reasonable as his post may appear, lets get to the root here.

MRD, you pretty much provided no alternative. I'm delighted to hear you rant. You're funny and usually logical too.

But analyze this situation a bit below the surface and provide some alternatives. A call for "self restraint" is hardly adequate.

If you want to place the reader in the shoes of the Lebanese, then play fair and jump in the shoes of Israel.

How would you feel if Mexicans guerillas snuck across our border, murdered eight national guard troops, kidnapped two others, and then demanded the release of thousands of illegal immigrant violent MS-13 gangbanger felons as ransom? Would we declare war on Mexico? Of course not. But what if the northern half of Mexico were MS-13 and they regularly launched frickin' rockets into San Diego?

It is extremely discouraging that Israel has to act unilaterally in its own defense because the weak lebanese government cannot control the psychotic murdering half of its country. The Lebanese government should be working with Israel to clean out the Hizbullah rodents.

[orangat]

Before everybody starts getting on their knees for MRD, as reasonable as his post may appear, lets get to the root here.

MRD, you pretty much provided no alternative. I'm delighted to hear you rant. You're funny and usually logical too.

But analyze this situation a bit below the surface and provide some alternatives. A call for "self restraint" is hardly adequate.

If you want to place the reader in the shoes of the Lebanese, then play fair and jump in the shoes of Israel.

How would you feel if Mexicans guerillas snuck across our border, murdered eight national guard troops, kidnapped two others, and then demanded the release of thousands of illegal immigrant violent MS-13 gangbanger felons as ransom? Would we declare war on Mexico? Of course not. But what if the northern half of Mexico were MS-13 and they regularly launched frickin' rockets into San Diego?

It is extremely discouraging that Israel has to act unilaterally in its own defense because the weak lebanese government cannot control the psychotic murdering half of its country. The Lebanese government should be working with Israel to clean out the Hizbullah rodents.

Using your analogy, US forces then sends gunships and bombers to obliterate Mexican police outposts and HQs and civilian infrastructure thus rendering Mexican authorities even less able to cope with the guerillas and furthur angering the Mexican public at large.

The Israeli position has nearly always been to falsely portray itself as being reactive and retaliatory instead of being the aggressive colonizer that it is.

If Israel wants to win sympathy then it should go after Hezbollah targets not Lebanese assets.

[scotchedpommes]

You are patently wrong. Israel has only just called up its reservists. If an invasion was planned then the Israelis would have performed this call-up weeks if not months ago and they would have been in Lebanon for the last two weeks at least.

Patently wrong about what? Just because no mobilisation had occurred does not
mean there couldn't possibly have been any plan. And the question still stands,
why not use other methods?

[Divinus Arma]

Using your analogy, US forces then sends gunships and bombers to obliterate Mexican police outposts and HQs and civilian infrastructure thus rendering Mexican authorities even less able to cope with the guerillas and furthur angering the Mexican public at large.

The Israeli position has nearly always been to falsely portray itself as being reactive and retaliatory instead of being the aggressive colonizer that it is.

If Israel wants to win sympathy then it should go after Hezbollah targets not Lebanese assets.

Show me proof where Israel has target Lebanese military and law enforcement.

[x-dANGEr]

How would you feel if Mexicans guerillas snuck across our border, murdered eight national guard troops, kidnapped two others, and then demanded the release of thousands of illegal immigrant violent MS-13 gangbanger felons as ransom? Would we declare war on Mexico? Of course not. But what if the northern half of Mexico were MS-13 and they regularly launched frickin' rockets into San Diego?
Where did you add that bonus from? Hezbullah didn't regularly launch rockets before this whole thing.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Your analogy Eclectic, is an appeal for an emotional response, which is precisely the problem here. Israel is making a huge mistake by trying to break Hezbollah in Lebanon through smashing that country into pieces. A failed state on its northern border is more like the US transforming Mexico into Afghanistan.

A strong, western leaning Lebanon was Israel's best security. A low-key and measured response in collaboration with the Lebanese was called for here - and better support for the Lebanese security forces becoming more powerful since the pull-out would have helped. Lebanon's progress was significantly proven when they ejected the Syrians. Hezbollah was more of a problem, but they could have dealt with them soon enough.

Instead, Israel has opted to do Syria's dirty work for them. The Syrians (so far entirely without any loss at all) have gained revenge on the Lebanese government, reasserted their influence over Hezbollah and made Israel look like murderous lunatics.

Israel has a failed state on its border, potentially a long-term occupation, hordes more Arabs signing up to blow themselves up in Tel Aviv and pictures of dead babies beaming around the world. Even if they root out Hezbollah from southern Lebanon, the rockets and nutters will still be around hiding in the north or popping over from Syria.

Eventually, they will have to go home again and the terror groups will infiltrate down and we're back at square one.

PM Olmert is too weak at home to have chosen the sensible alternative noted above. If Olmert really had a backbone, he would be attacking Syria, which has a lot of military targets he could destroy without collateral damage. The supplies to Hezbollah would dry up pretty soon if Assad is getting his ass handed to him, even symbolically.

Destroying Lebanon makes no sense whatsoever. Except to Syria which is laughing with victory.

[scotchedpommes]

Show me proof where Israel has target Lebanese military and law enforcement.


Israel attacks Lebanese army barracks

BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 18 (UPI) -- Israel appears to be seeking to engage the Lebanese army in its open war against Hezbollah, in which civilian infrastructure has been targeted.

Israeli warplanes pounded an army barracks east of Beirut in an overnight raid in which 11 troops, including four officers, were killed and 40 injured, an army statement said Tuesday.

Article (http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060718-052333-8797r).

[Tribesman]

Where did you add that bonus from? Hezbullah didn't regularly launch rockets before this whole thing.

They did , try the 6 monthly mandate renewals for UNFIL for a brief summary of all violations by both sides .
January's renewal has (as well as the usual daily land sea and air violations ) 400+ artillery strikes and 30 air strikes .
BTW . Those are just the Israeli violations above .

[kataphraktoi]

The root of the cause is still Hezbollah. They are a cancer to Lebanon dragging everyone into their mess.

WHo the hell told them to kidnap soldiers in the first???

Didn't Israel withdraw from Lebanon? Israel knows the cost of occupying Lebanon, any covert forces in Lebanon is purely intelligience gathering. Jewish spies have been arrested in Arab countries before espionage.

We all say Israel should be more patient and resort to diplomacy more?

Would you do the same as the Israeli PM?

Consider these points:

1) If you don't respond to attacks, they will encourage more attacks by Hezbollah. If they attack, they will encourage more attacks by Hezbollah anyway. Are you saying that Israel would not be attacked by not attacking? I think logic does not apply to Hezbollah here...

2) Ehud Olmert is under pressure by the Israeli public to respond. As a politician, will you be so naive as to do nothing.

3) The international community is too weak to enforce anything practical? Should Israel wait like an idiot?

4) There are many circumstances that force our hand.

5) Middle-eastern politics is based on action, not words. Politics was created by the gun was it not? In addition, the concept of "face". Concession of weakness speaks volumes.

I hate the idea of civilian casualties, I've read in the papers of babies burnt to ashes and blown to bits, Ive read of other horrible things caused by the Israeli attack. I hate the fact that this has happened. But I hate the fact it could have been avoided if Hezbollah had not provoked Israel by kidnapping its soldiers.

The fact is, Hezbollah provoked an unnecessary attack, and Israel launched an unnecessary attack in response.

As Faisa mentioned to me a long time, other Arab states could spend their money better on helping Palestinians. I agree, small groups like Hezbollah shouldn't tarnish the Middle East. Arabs want peace as much as anyone else. But not with idiots like Hamas and Hezbollah who are both mutually compatible freedom fighters and terrorists .

[Tribesman]

any covert forces in Lebanon is purely intelligience gathering
Could you explain the Lebanese governments report to the UN the other day about the Israeli car bombs in Beirut then ?
Jewish spies have been arrested in Arab countries before espionage.

Espionage ?????? the last ones siezed (before this current arrest over the car bombs) was a botched assasination attempt wasn't it , that resulted in a prisoner exchange didn't it .

To amend my earlier post......
400+ artillery strikes and 30 air strikes
sorry for being misleading there , that should read 800+ and 30 , and its from a single episode during the 6 month period , not over the whole 6 months .

[Shaka_Khan]

You guys crack me up.

Here we have Lebanon, a country who hates Syria and stood up against their occupation after a respected Lebanese mouthpiece for the people was assassinated, a mideast
country that is arguably one of the more favorable towards the west, a country who has a crap military that has its hands full already and isn't exactly in a situation to "weed out hezbollah" , a country that is a great candidate to bring over to our side, a country full of chrisitans

and now its going to be blown to sheet, and any civilians killed will
be brushed aside as "oh well we told them to leave"

I'm trying to figure out when the religious neocons and Isreal will realize that a little -- JUST A FRICKIN LITTLE -- self restraint can go miles in winning people to your side, rather than thrashing a country and then wondering why its civilians hate you

So how would you like it if, in the middle of July, you had no fresh water or air conditioning, couldnt go to work so you could pay your bills, and had to pull up stakes and relocate willy nilly because of something being done by someone you didn't even vote for.

so I hope, just for the sake of optimism, that Isreal takes its finger off the trigger and tries to work with Lebanon so we just might avoid a WWIII. I hope. I doubt it, though, kind of like when Isreal would do things like blow up palestenian infrastructure and government offices, yet demand they do more to fight the terrorists. Kind of hard to do when all your computers and file cabinets just got blown up and half your population is out of water, eh?

I'm starting to sound like Pat Buchanan
Agreed. I hope Israel doesn't go too far. It'll be better for both sides.

[orangat]

Show me proof where Israel has target Lebanese military and law enforcement.

Israel has very frequently targeted law enforcement and civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and Palestinian territories.

http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=130348&region=6
In the recent fighting, Israel has bombed bridges, Lebanese army and police HQ, numerous civilian centers and a well drilling equipment.

The reason that Israel bombs civilians and police/army targets is to furthur destabilize and weaken Lebanese/PLO civil goverments and furthur infuriate Lebanese and Palestinians to encourage attacks from terrorists to continue so that Israel can continue to play the martyr.

[x-dANGEr]

Tribesman, he implemented that "Hezbullah was regularly launching missiles, which is the reason Israel invaded Lebanon". AFAIK, that wasn't the case before this whole operation, at least briefly.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kat':

You are missing the point. Practical political considerations on the part of an Israeli politician or ten are irrelevant compared to what's right.

Hizbollah and Hamas do, indeed, sometimes kill civilians in their attacks on the Israeli military positions. This is wrong, and they really shouldn't use such lousy targeting weapons, but they are the underdog facing an imperialist Israel. They are economic outcasts whose water and opportunity have been stolen by Israelis and it is hardly possible to hold them to the same standards of decency we'd expect of the UK or Canada. It is a sad reality of their position.

Moreover, in practical terms, conventional warfare can never succeed in completely rooting out guerrilla-style fighters -- the guerilla force will always win in the long run -- so all Israel is accomplishing is needless civilian deaths -- in greater numbers than Hizbollah would generate in months of small guerilla-style rocket attacks. It's not elegant, but the best strategy for Israel would be to put up with the occasional losses and work to enhance its connections with the more moderate components of the arab world.

One vital step would be to return to its UN-sanctioned 1948 borders and to compensate -- at current fair market value coupled with an indemnity payment for lost use -- those Palestinian families displaced by the events of 1948. This will allow for the development of an effective Palestinian state -- governed by followers of the prophet -- that can begin to rebuild the prosperity from which they were so tragically displaced. Hizbollah, freed of the fear of Israeli expansionism, would be able to coordinate its political effort in the development of a renewed Lebanon.

This would lead to lasting peace.....wouldn't it.

















~:rolleyes: ~:wacko: ~:dizzy: :bounce:

[kataphraktoi]

You are missing the point. Practical political considerations on the part of an Israeli politician or ten are irrelevant compared to what's right.

Hizbollah and Hamas do, indeed, sometimes kill civilians in their attacks on the Israeli military positions. This is wrong, and they really shouldn't use such lousy targeting weapons, but they are the underdog facing an imperialist Israel. They are economic outcasts whose water and opportunity have been stolen by Israelis and it is hardly possible to hold them to the same standards of decency we'd expect of the UK or Canada. It is a sad reality of their position.

Moreover, in practical terms, conventional warfare can never succeed in completely rooting out guerrilla-style fighters -- the guerilla force will always win in the long run -- so all Israel is accomplishing is needless civilian deaths -- in greater numbers than Hizbollah would generate in months of small guerilla-style rocket attacks. It's not elegant, but the best strategy for Israel would be to put up with the occasional losses and work to enhance its connections with the more moderate components of the arab world.

One vital step would be to return to its UN-sanctioned 1948 borders and to compensate -- at current fair market value coupled with an indemnity payment for lost use -- those Palestinian families displaced by the events of 1948. This will allow for the development of an effective Palestinian state -- governed by followers of the prophet -- that can begin to rebuild the prosperity from which they were so tragically displaced. Hizbollah, freed of the fear of Israeli expansionism, would be able to coordinate its political effort in the development of a renewed Lebanon.

This would lead to lasting peace.....wouldn't it.

It woon't lead to lasting peace because they wont accept the existence of Israel.

We have all accepted the existence of states like Australia and America founded on other people's land, so why can't Israel be accepted?

Everyone will never get what they want, so we have to accept some compromises which Israel has done more than the Palestinian side.

The 1948 borders are ridiculous, because:

1) it was never accepted as a permanent border by the Arabs so why should returning to 1948 borders be accepted as a permanent border then? The Arab states don't give a damn about what the UN sanctions, they never HAVE except when it suits them.

2) Fair market indemnity, how about compensating the Jews who had their assets seized in Arab countries they have lived in for centuries?? No, Israel will not ask for it because they have learnt to accept some things can never be recompensed.

3) Israel has no EXPANSIONIST PLANS. They are interested in defensive borders. As long as their existence is threatened they will refuse to cede land. I can't believe people can readily accept that Israel wants to be an expansionist state!!!

4) I do believe that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza is a sign of its intention to compromise and come to the table, but when you have fools like Hezbollah trying to talk with Katyushas from their a** Israel has shown it will fight when it has to.

5) Israel has no VIABLE way to respond...the inability of Hezbollah to talk means both sides are condemned to a fruitless war.

6( Hezbollah may be an underdog, but no doubts that an underdog bites.

7) Politics has NEVER BEEN ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG, but what is DONE AND ACHIEVED IN THE END. It is rare for moral considerations to influence politics. We might as well be taking LSD if we think politics will ever be about what is right. I'M not saying it shouldn't be right...but my point still stands, practical considerations will always be the deciding factor in decisions.

8) Whats with the hopping smilie :D hehe


any covert forces in Lebanon is purely intelligience gathering
Could you explain the Lebanese governments report to the UN the other day about the Israeli car bombs in Beirut then ?

Hmm, well the Lebanese government is backing the Hezbollah isn't it? Isn';t Hezbollah part of the Lebanese government? Why wouldn't the Lebanese government make some lamed excuses and complaints against Israel? Isn't it clear? The Lebanese government is at the mercy of a minority opposition group with disproportionate strength. The Lebanese government has no credibility. It has no power. It is a shambles even before the Israeli attack.

As far as I'm concerned the Lebanese government which Hezbollah is part of, is just a helpless figure drawn unwillingly into the Lion's jaw.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19866119-601,00.html

A good article, addresses the real issue. Sympathetic to both Palestinians and Israelis.

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, he implemented that "Hezbullah was regularly launching missiles, which is the reason Israel invaded Lebanon". AFAIK, that wasn't the case before this whole operation, at least briefly.


No he didn't , he implied by drawing an example that they were regularly launching missies at a major Isreali city , which they were not , but he did choose a city as an example with a large military presence , therefore a military target , a city which just by coincidence some of the radical hispanics claim is theirs , so it wasn't that bad a comparison really .
But a more accurate example would be if the mexicans were bombarding a small farming community on the Texan border that had a large garrison .

Now earlier I metioned some Israei violations of the resolution , Lebanon also is guilty , though their daily violations involve shepherds and fisherman rather than F-15s and gunboats , the Lebanese militia in question(and the PFLP-GC) do violate the conditions regularly in a very nasty manner .

Some people have mentioned on this topic the Beirut governments failure (thats the anti-Syrian government BTW) to fully deploy along the border and disarm the militia , I wonder if any know the official government reason for this ?
Though with that being said UNFIL and UNTSO both reported significant progress being made in co-operation ,deployment and actions taken with and by the Lebanese army recently against the militia .
But I suppose any small recent progress (including the elections) have been thrown out the window when the nuts from both sidesdecided to go back to square one .

So heres a thought , with this current action Israel has to effectively completely destroy HezB'allah to be victorious , HezB'allah simply has to survive to be victorious .
Can Israel win ? :no:

[Tribesman]

Hmm, well the Lebanese government is backing the Hezbollah isn't it? Isn';t Hezbollah part of the Lebanese government? Why wouldn't the Lebanese government make some lamed excuses and complaints against Israel? Isn't it clear? The Lebanese government is at the mercy of a minority opposition group with disproportionate strength. The Lebanese government has no credibility. It has no power. It is a shambles even before the Israeli attack.
So do you think that Israel has the right to set off car bombs in major cities then ?
Or are you saying that the Lebanese government and police invented invented the evidence they presented to the UN ?

[x-dANGEr]

No he didn't , he implied by drawing an example that they were regularly launching missies at a major Isreali city , which they were not , but he did choose a city as an example with a large military presence , therefore a military target , a city which just by coincidence some of the radical hispanics claim is theirs , so it wasn't that bad a comparison really .

Gah.. But you still agree to me.. (Or the point at least: How did he say "at millitary targets" ?)

@Kataphraktoi: I'm going to use a line I learnt from Redleg: "Emmotional appealing is it's own refutation".

@Tribesman: Imil Lahhoud said on CNN (Don't know when exactly) that the reason they aren't making anything against Hezbullah, is because Hezbullah is the reason that make the Israeli army think twice before violating Lebanon's independecy. Now, what do you think about that?

[Husar]

Imil Lahhoud said on CNN (Don't know when exactly) that the reason they aren't making anything against Hezbullah, is because Hezbullah is the reason that make the Israeli army think twice before violating Lebanon's independecy. Now, what do you think about that?
Wasn´t directed at me, but I cannot believe that.
If there was no Hezbullah, then there would be not a single reason for Israel to invade Lebanon and if Israel invaded, they would be the bad guys to 100%.
If Israel invaded Lebanon without Hezbollah being in Lebanon, I´d even say that we(NATO, UN, whoever) should send forces to get Israel out of there if they wouldn´t leave after some diplomatic requests.

[Dâriûsh]

I bet OBL and his AQ boys are desperately trying to figure out whether they should salute or condemn the Hizbullah heretics.

[x-dANGEr]

Husar.. Who drove Israel out of Lebanon? Hezbullah right?

[Divinus Arma]

The reason that Israel bombs civilians and police/army targets is to furthur destabilize and weaken Lebanese/PLO civil goverments and furthur infuriate Lebanese and Palestinians to encourage attacks from terrorists to continue so that Israel can continue to play the martyr.

This is the stupidest conspiracy theory I have ever heard. Only a terrorist sympathizer makes statements like these. So Israel can play the martyr? This doen't even deserve to be addressed. It's nothing but racist Jew-hating.


And Tribesman, Israeli car-bombs? Brilliant buddy. The Jewish people are well-known for their suicide bombers, aren't they? I'll bet you think they're cheap money-whores who control the world too. God knows orangat does.


Irrational people like you two make it difficult to advocate a policy of restraint. Thank God there are moderates everywhere who actually seek to understand the real motivations of both sides. Otherwise, I would be inclined to agree with PanzerJager and Gelantinous Cube: Total western disenagageent and absolute support of Israeli military policy.


I support Israel. I support Lebanon. I support a free and independent Palestine. All those with logic and reason have a desire to see the economic prosperity and well-being of everyone in the region. The only group that is to blame for starting all of this, every damn time, is the Islamic fundamentalist wack jobs that hate the Jews. "The little Satan": that's what these nuts call Israel. These terrorists are nothing but racist mini-dictators. No freedom of religion. No freedom of speech. Nothing but Islamic dictatorship.

Well. You pissed me off this morning. Congratulations. People like you make me want to stay in the military so I can go over there and kick some ass.

[Tribesman]

@Tribesman: Imil Lahhoud said on CNN (Don't know when exactly) that the reason they aren't making anything against Hezbullah, is because Hezbullah is the reason that make the Israeli army think twice before violating Lebanon's independecy. Now, what do you think about that?
Do note that I said I wonder if any know the official government reason for this ? it is a little more detailed than that given on the TV .

Gah.. But you still agree to me..
In a way , they were regularly attacking military positions , and occasionaly attacking civilian targets . But they were not regularly attacking civilian targets .
So in all , Divinus' example does not stand very well .
One thing I do not agree with you on though is that you appear to put all the blame on one side , all sides are at fault .

[Tribesman]

And Tribesman, Israeli car-bombs? Brilliant buddy. The Jewish people are well-known for their suicide bombers, aren't they? I'll bet you think they're cheap money-whores who control the world too.
That is a very silly statement Divinus , have you had a bad morning , is the head a little foggy perhaps ?:inquisitive:

This is the stupidest conspiracy theory I have ever heard.
Possibly , but they have done it before on many occasions ,they have planted bombs and blamed it on the Arabs , they have even attacked Western targets in other countries and blamed it on the Arabs .

So perhaps not the stupidest conspiracy theory of all time , that would probably be the one about Saddam and 9/11 .:2thumbsup:

[Divinus Arma]

...they have planted bombs and blamed it on the Arabs , they have even attacked Western targets in other countries and blamed it on the Arabs .


Do not disgrace the Org with your racist lies. If you want to make outrageous lies like this, than provide some proof.

[Ser Clegane]

:stop:

Please calm down - asking for proof/evidence is fine

Accusing other patrons of making "racist lies" or of being "Jew-hating racists" however is not acceptable.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It woon't lead to lasting peace because they wont accept the existence of Israel.

We have all accepted the existence of states like Australia and America founded on other people's land, so why can't Israel be accepted?

Everyone will never get what they want, so we have to accept some compromises which Israel has done more than the Palestinian side.

The 1948 borders are ridiculous, because:

1) it was never accepted as a permanent border by the Arabs so why should returning to 1948 borders be accepted as a permanent border then? The Arab states don't give a damn about what the UN sanctions, they never HAVE except when it suits them.

2) Fair market indemnity, how about compensating the Jews who had their assets seized in Arab countries they have lived in for centuries?? No, Israel will not ask for it because they have learnt to accept some things can never be recompensed.

3) Israel has no EXPANSIONIST PLANS. They are interested in defensive borders. As long as their existence is threatened they will refuse to cede land. I can't believe people can readily accept that Israel wants to be an expansionist state!!!

4) I do believe that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza is a sign of its intention to compromise and come to the table, but when you have fools like Hezbollah trying to talk with Katyushas from their a** Israel has shown it will fight when it has to.

5) Israel has no VIABLE way to respond...the inability of Hezbollah to talk means both sides are condemned to a fruitless war.

6( Hezbollah may be an underdog, but no doubts that an underdog bites.

7) Politics has NEVER BEEN ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG, but what is DONE AND ACHIEVED IN THE END. It is rare for moral considerations to influence politics. We might as well be taking LSD if we think politics will ever be about what is right. I'M not saying it shouldn't be right...but my point still stands, practical considerations will always be the deciding factor in decisions.

8) Whats with the hopping smilie :D hehe


The hopping smilie was my indication that the preceding had been presented "tongue-in-cheek." Actually, so in-cheek that there was some danger of a puncture.

Extra-national terrorism must be crushed -- it cannot be negotiated. Internal guerilla conflicts are bad enough, but terrorism is vile and contemptible.

Remember, the leaders of the true militant sub-factions do not want compromise and they are only somewhat interested in victory. What matters most is power, and in the racking chaos of constant bloodshed THEY are the ones who sit atop the heap. That the heap is made of the skulls of children bothers them little or not at all.

[Husar]

Husar.. Who drove Israel out of Lebanon? Hezbullah right?
I have no idea how drove them out last time, I can only guess why they were there last time, but I´m talking about today. So far it doesn´t really look like a few Katjuschas fired into Haifa will completely crush and drive out the Israelis.:dizzy2:

[Divinus Arma]

:stop:

Please calm down - asking for proof/evidence is fine

Accusing other patrons of making "racist lies" or of being "Jew-hating racists" however is not acceptable.

Very Well. In my defense, the tone may be sharp but I call 'em like I see 'em. A lie is a lie, and baseless insane accusations should be addressed.

With all due respect, what if a patron had said that Muslims have been know on rare occasions to boil Christian children alive for food in areas of extreme poverty? (for example's sake, only)

I'm pretty sure that the patron would recieve a very deserved stern kick in the balls by the staff.

Tribe's comment is no better than "Muslims boil and eat Christian children". Its a defamatory racist lie and nothing more. It should be treated as such.

That's all from me. Just expressing a desire for fair mediation. :bow:

Now let's get

:focus:

[Ser Clegane]

Sorry - I cannot let this "comparison" slip through uncommented as it unwarranted and you repeat your accusations.

Alleging that the Israeli administration (potentially through secret services) planted bombs to later blame e.g. Arabs has nothing to do with racism and is just a statement that requires proof like similar allegations (e.g., involvement of Iraq in AQ activities).

It is inacceptable that any criticism of the actions of a country's (any country's) administration (no matter if this criticism is justified or not) is labeled as "racism".

You decided to repeat these accusations after being explicitly asked to refrain from doing so :no:

This thread is closed for the time being and might be re-opened later today.

[Leet Eriksson]

Very Well. In my defense, the tone may be sharp but I call 'em like I see 'em. A lie is a lie, and baseless insane accusations should be addressed.

With all due respect, what if a patron had said that Muslims have been know on rare occasions to boil Christian children alive for food in areas of extreme poverty? (for example's sake, only)

I'm pretty sure that the patron would recieve a very deserved stern kick in the balls by the staff.

Tribe's comment is no better than "Muslims boil and eat Christian children". Its a defamatory racist lie and nothing more. It should be treated as such.

That's all from me. Just expressing a desire for fair mediation. :bow:

Now let's get

:focus:

Panzerjeager called the Iraqis an inferior people, yet no one did anything. Thats far more racist.

Oh and on another note, if he did say christians/muslims its freedom of speech and not racism, becuase essentially hes criticising religion and not an ethnic group or culture.

[Tribesman]

Well apparently someone doesn't know about the Lavon affair for starters .:no:
A wonderful little episode where a certain government bombed western owned business interests in the hope that someone else would get the blame . A rather embarrasing episode for those involved thathad ar reaching consequences .
Perhaps the tiniest bit of actual knowledge about a subject can stop foolish accusations about racist lies eh ~;)

Now should I provide a link or will a major interntional incident be easy enough for people to find by themselves ?:laugh4:

[Ser Clegane]

Thread re-opened.

I added Tribesman's response that was given in a separate thread to this one (see above).

Please play nice know. Discuss the issues and don't resort to ad hominem attacks, if you doubt the validity of statements.

Thanks

Ser Clegane

:bow:

[Divinus Arma]

Alright. I read the other thread and did a ilttle research on it. This hotel incident was terrorism 100%. Unexcusable and it should not be celebrated.

I stand corrected on that component of the issue.


However, dressed as Arabs, does not mean "blaming arabs". The phone call warning given to the hotel staff prior to the bombing explicity stated it was the "Hebrew underground" movement. That does not mean they blamed it on Arabs.

Let's see some evidence where Israel sponsored an act of terrorism against the west, aside from post-colonial Britian in the middle east (because you proved at least that much). Furthermore, let's see some evidence where this was blamed on Arabs.

And this nonsense about car bombs in Lebanon right now? Prove it.

I don't believe, but I'll admit if I am wrong. Just show me some proof of these accusations.


Thanks.

[Tribesman]

I stand corrected on that component of the issue.

That is not the issue Divinus , if you want to explore that time line then as well as dressed as arabs they also conducted acts of terrorism in British uniforms so the British would get the blame for the market bombings , but the hotel and market were pre independance .
What I refer to are false flag operations , in particular the British theatre and American library that Isreal tried to get blamed on Nasser .

And this nonsense about car bombs in Lebanon right now? Prove it.

Its not up to me to prove it , that is up to two bodies , one of which might be a little busy to conduct the trial at the moment , and the other is notoriously slow . So you will have to wait for either the Lebanese government to prove it in court or the UN investigation to finish .

[orangat]

This is the stupidest conspiracy theory I have ever heard. Only a terrorist sympathizer makes statements like these. So Israel can play the martyr? This doen't even deserve to be addressed. It's nothing but racist Jew-hating.

And Tribesman, Israeli car-bombs? Brilliant buddy. The Jewish people are well-known for their suicide bombers, aren't they? I'll bet you think they're cheap money-whores who control the world too. God knows orangat does.
Irrational people like you two make it difficult to advocate a policy of restraint. Thank God there are moderates everywhere who actually seek to understand the real motivations of both sides. Otherwise, I would be inclined to agree with PanzerJager and Gelantinous Cube: Total western disenagageent and absolute support of Israeli military policy.
..........

Conspiracy theory? I just showed you up in post #35 to be ignorant of what Israel is bombing just this past week. Are you so brainwashed you continue to deny no police bases were bombed?
Israel has consistently attacked civil infrastucture including police bases and outposts in the West Bank especially during the second intifada. And bombs from Israel doesn't have to be from cars, they use warplanes and rockets from gunships.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14055.htm
The documentary Peace and Propaganda should give you a much needed overview primer on the Israeli problem.
Israel endeavours to suffocate the Palestinians socially and economically by its many checkpoint roadblocks and frequent curfews, destabilize the Palestinian government by attacking civil infrastructure and anger Palestinians directly by maintaining and expanding illegal settlements. Then when Israel receives a terrorist attack, it plays the wounded martyr.

[Divinus Arma]

in particular the British theatre and American library that Isreal tried to get blamed on Nasser .

Link.



Its not up to me to prove it , that is up to two bodies , one of which might be a little busy to conduct the trial at the moment , and the other is notoriously slow . So you will have to wait for either the Lebanese government to prove it in court or the UN investigation to finish .

Well, I guess its BS then. :dizzy2: At least provide a link to your source of info.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, I guess its BS then. :dizzy2: At least provide a link to your source of info.

No offense Divinus Arma, but you seem to require cited sources for every claim against Israel; a behavior not present when allegations are made against Iran (you did start the debunked "Yellow Star" thread)...

[Ser Clegane]

Israel endeavours to suffocate the Palestinians socially and economically by its many checkpoint roadblocks and frequent curfews, destabilize the Palestinian government by attacking civil infrastructure and anger Palestinians directly by maintaining and expanding illegal settlements. Then when Israel receives a terrorist attack, it plays the wounded martyr.
This is a bit different from what you said in your previous post.

There you accused Israel of intentionally provoking/encouraging terrorist attacks to exploit these attacks (i.e. to "play martyr").
This is quite a statement as it implies that ultimately the Israeli administration (or actually multiple Israeli administrations in the past) does not care for the safety of Israeli citizens but uses the lifes of its citizens to gain a perceived geopolitical advantage.

While I believe that Israel's reations are often counterproductive with reagrd to creating peace in the region, I have a hard time believing that they are intentionally counterproductive, but are rather based on the historically grown perception that Israel can only survive by not showing any weakness and by reacting to threats with military strengths.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Eclectic, just to help out since I know Tribesman likes to tweak your nose, here is information about the Lavon Affair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair).

[orangat]

This is a bit different from what you said in your previous post.

There you accused Israel of intentionally provoking/encouraging terrorist attacks to exploit these attacks (i.e. to "play martyr").
This is quite a statement as it implies that ultimately the Israeli administration (or actually multiple Israeli administrations in the past) does not care for the safety of Israeli citizens but uses the lifes of its citizens to gain a perceived geopolitical advantage.

While I believe that Israel's reations are often counterproductive with reagrd to creating peace in the region, I have a hard time believing that they are intentionally counterproductive, but are rather based on the historically grown perception that Israel can only survive by not showing any weakness and by reacting to threats with military strengths.

You don't see the current occupation with illegal settlements as being provocation enough? Did you watch the video Peace and Propaganda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14055.htm)?

The language of oppression in "occupation", "settlements", frequent curfews/roadblocks, water shortages/cuts, "administrative demolitions", "internal closures", "administrative detentions" etc is either frequently hidden/changed by the US media into something more innocuous or cloaked by the Israeli authorities under the guise of "proper administration" as in the matrix of control. So when Palestinians complain or start throwing stones then they are the ones accused of "breaking the peace" while Israel sits on the high moral ground.

The matrix of control - http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=3

[x-dANGEr]

I support Israel. I support Lebanon. I support a free and independent Palestine. All those with logic and reason have a desire to see the economic prosperity and well-being of everyone in the region. The only group that is to blame for starting all of this, every damn time, is the Islamic fundamentalist wack jobs that hate the Jews. "The little Satan": that's what these nuts call Israel. These terrorists are nothing but racist mini-dictators. No freedom of religion. No freedom of speech. Nothing but Islamic dictatorship.
You know, you kind of pose contrary to yourself in one post.. Nice!

One thing I do not agree with you on though is that you appear to put all the blame on one side , all sides are at fault .

Well, that's my problem.. I can't get it through my thick head what fault have those Lebanese women and children got in this mayhem..

I have no idea how drove them out last time, I can only guess why they were there last time, but I´m talking about today. So far it doesn´t really look like a few Katjuschas fired into Haifa will completely crush and drive out the Israelis.
They won't. But they will exhaust it's economy, and the spirit of the people.. Ending with Israel pulling back and trading the prisoners.. Oh, and the worst start for the new Olmart.

Muslims have been know on rare occasions to boil Christian children alive for food in areas of extreme poverty?
Honestly, I'd laugh. (Me being a muslim) EDIT: When I read it, it seemed like me expressing joy in others' grief.. So, I want to clear that I'd laugh because the thought is silly, nothing more.

The language of oppression in "occupation", "settlements", frequent curfews/roadblocks, water shortages/cuts, "administrative demolitions", "internal closures", "administrative detentions" etc is either frequently hidden/changed by the US media into something more innocuous or cloaked by the Israeli authorities under the guise of "proper administration" as in the matrix of control. So when Palestinians complain or start throwing stones then they are the ones accused of "breaking the peace" while Israel sits on the high moral ground.

Last time I went to visit my family in Jenin, Palestine (Which is less than 100 KMs away), the trip took from 6 AM to 3 PM. Why? Go figure ~;)

Just one note Divinus Arma. People always express their hate and disturbness about the "suicides" that happen in Israel (And many more places now.. ~:( ), that kill innocent people. Now, isn't doing that by a F16 the same? Or even the worse?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Just one note Divinus Arma. People always express their hate and disturbness about the "suicides" that happen in Israel (And many more places now.. ~:( ), that kill innocent people. Now, isn't doing that by a F16 the same? Or even the worse?

If the pilot in the Falcon chose, for example, to target his bomb on a marketplace full of civilians, there would be no difference whatsoever.

If the pilot/decision maker on a sortie chose to bomb a target that they could not identify clearly or had only a vague idea that it was a threat, that would be nearly as bad.

Targeting a legitimate target and missing thereby killing innocents, or hitting a target whose status had changed in the very recent past, or hitting a target and having innocent bystanders harmed by happenstance is simply not the same level of moral "wrong."

Please note, I am fully aware that the family of the innocent decedant is unlikely to care about the distinction and that the taking of any innocent life during conflict is regrettable, but please do not assign moral equivalency to the act of purposefully targeting the innocent in direct comparison to the happenstance death of a bystander during a purposeful attack on a valid military target.

If I take out my handgun, walk down to the local market, and shoot the shopkeeper, I will have committed murder.

If, while at that same market, I draw my gun to protect myself from someone who is threatening me with a knife, shoot her, but the bullet penetrates her completely and kills the shopkeeper, nobody will think I have murdered him. Many may argue against my judgement, some may even go so far as to assert that I should have let myself be stabbed rather than risk the shopkeeper's life by counter-attacking, but no one will assume me to have had evil intent in the harming of the shopkeeper.

The two acts are not morally equivalent.

[Dâriûsh]

If, while at that same market, I draw my gun to protect myself from someone who is threatening me with a knife, shoot her, but the bullet penetrates her completely and kills the shopkeeper, nobody will think I have murdered him. Many may argue against my judgement, some may even go so far as to assert that I should have let myself be stabbed rather than risk the shopkeeper's life by counter-attacking, but no one will assume me to have had evil intent in the harming of the shopkeeper. Not far off, but to conform to the Israel-Palestine standards, you would defend yourself against a potential attacker by firing a howitzer rather than a handgun.

[Geoffrey S]

As an aside, I love the way the UN (or at least Egeland) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207478.stm) can condemn the actions of the Israelis as "violations of humanitarian law" so quickly, but still do sod all in Darfur or numerous other places.

I personally think the situation has escalated beyond reason, but such a clear show of double standards is sickening.

[Tribesman]

Well, I guess its BS then.
It is not my fault that you choose to debate issues that you don't keep up to date with Divinus . If you cannot find Lebanese government submissions to the UN then you really are beyond hope .
Just keep up the baseless accusations of BS and racist lies if it makes you feel more comfortable .

Eclectic, just to help out since I know Tribesman likes to tweak your nose, here is information about the Lavon Affair.
Damn you Banquo , how did you find that ?
Did you type Lavon Affair into your search function , and get thousands of results about the same subject ?
Did you really manage it all by yourself without a link ~;)

[Divinus Arma]

Har har har. :balloon2:

Tribes: I'm just trying to get the facts together. Sorry I got all worked up and called you a racist. It seems to me that even Israelis were unhappy with that particular event. This was an anomaly and is not an accepted way of doing business in Modern Israel. It flys in the face of Judeo-Christian values. You talk about these events from 60 years ago as if they are still acceptable today. By your logic, all Germans are still Nazis, all Americans are slavemasters, all Irish are IRA bombers, and the English still hold colonis tyhroughout the world. Its ludicrous to claim that events from that long ago are reflective of that modern nation now.

[Tribesman]

Thats OK Divinus , like I said earlier you seemed to be having a bad morning so lets forget it .
However , you talk as though governments and groups commiting acts and blaming someone else is a thing of the distant past . It still happens , and in many countries , one of the more recent would be the apartment bombings in russia that were blamed on the Chechens even though government agents were caught red handed planting bombs , or you could look at the Italian government getting fascist groups to plant bombs and blaming it on communists , the far-right in France attacking arabs and claiming it was Zionists , or even the British shipping explosives to the IRA (who apperently were mostly british agents anyway) to bomb british cities . I will skip operation northwood as apparently the President of your country put a stop to that (though who is that fella on immigration charges who blew up an airliner and a hotel ?:inquisitive: ) .
Though I could mention the accusations about Alawi and the INC, but that gets complicated with him working for both the Iranians and Americans at the same time , was it the Americans getting the bombs planted and hoping to get the blame on Iran or was it the Iranians getting the bombs planted and hoping to get the blame on America ?
Strange world isn't it ~;)

[Divinus Arma]

You actually come across as reasoned. I think your perception of these events is a touch off the mark, but your presentation is as restrained as I have ever seen. Kudos. You present a good argument.

Good info. I'll look more into it. That Northwoods fiasco would have been damn unAmerican. I'm surprised this didn't jump all over the media when it was released. Americans would be pissed if this kind of stuff was conducted by our government. It would be hell to pay indeed. Riots and civil disorder beyond comparison. The men in our military would have a hell of a time, since we would want to be rioting too. Yep. Heads would roll. Literally. And if a President tried to pardon somebody, he may just lose his right to do that by constituional amendment. Then the public would hunt down the perpetrators and kill them.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. You win the award for best post of the day. 75 points. And a balloon. :balloon2:

:2thumbsup:

[Pannonian]

If the pilot in the Falcon chose, for example, to target his bomb on a marketplace full of civilians, there would be no difference whatsoever.

If the pilot/decision maker on a sortie chose to bomb a target that they could not identify clearly or had only a vague idea that it was a threat, that would be nearly as bad.

Targeting a legitimate target and missing thereby killing innocents, or hitting a target whose status had changed in the very recent past, or hitting a target and having innocent bystanders harmed by happenstance is simply not the same level of moral "wrong."

The two acts are not morally equivalent.
Would this be terrorism or collateral damage?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

The Sha'itas had thought they were on the road to safety when they set out yesterday, leaving behind a village which because of an accident of geography - it is five miles from the Israeli border - had seemed to make their home a killing ground. They had been ordered to evacuate by the Israelis.

But they were a little too slow and became separated from the other vehicles fleeing the Israeli air offensive in south Lebanon. Minutes before the Guardian's car arrived, trailing a Red Cross ambulance on its way to other civilian wounded in another town, an Israeli missile pierced the roof of the Sha'itas' white van. Three passengers sitting in the third row were killed instantly, including Ali's grandmother. Sixteen other passengers were wounded. In recent days, families like the Sha'itas are bearing the brunt of Israel's air campaign and its efforts to rid the area of civilians before ground operations. A day after Israel's deadline for people to leave their homes and flee north of the Litani river, roads which in ordinary times wind lazily through tobacco fields and banana groves have been turned into highways of death.

Those who choose not to flee - the UN estimates that 35%-40% of villagers are too poor or too frail to make the journey - are being left stranded.

That was the predicament facing the Sha'itas when Musbah Sha'ita urged them to flee. In a car on the way to the hospital, his ear was welded to his phone, trying to find out where his wounded relatives were, and he could not stop blaming himself.

"We put a white flag. We were doing what Israel told us to do," he says. "What more do they want of us?"

[Tribesman]

Would this be terrorism or collateral damage?

Neither it would be their own fault .
It had been made quite clear , anyone travelling on a motorcycle , in a van , pickup , minibus or truck is a military target .
Its a bit of a bugger for anyone trying to vacate their home whose vehicle isn't a standard car but thats life isn't it , they were given a warning so Israel is justified .
Warnings do make killing justified don't they or have I missed some of the general sentiment in this topic ?

I suppose it could be worse , Israel could have a free-fire policy of killing anyone wearing white , but that woud be silly , I mean who on earth would decide that the colour of clothes worn by a civilian fleeing a war zone = a death sentance .:inquisitive:

[Incongruous]

We have all accepted the existence of states like Australia and America founded on other people's land, so why can't Israel be accepted?

Isreal was created in the last century, the Indians disputed the right of the U.S to exist for a very long time, as we can expect the arabs to do, it is simply logical. That line of debate is simply pointless.

[yesdachi]

It woon't lead to lasting peace because they wont accept the existence of Israel.
And this is exactly why any diplomatic or political “solution” is only a band-aid on a cancer.

The “good” Muslims inability to control their radicals is what keeps these conflicts active.

[x-dANGEr]

It had been made quite clear , anyone travelling on a motorcycle , in a van , pickup , minibus or truck is a military target .

Really?! Why?! Is it reason?! So if someone doesn't have a normal car, he'd walk?!

Warnings do make killing justified don't they or have I missed some of the general sentiment in this topic ?

When you warn someone, you give him an alternative to achieve what you warned him to do.. You can't say to a town "Evacuate", "But wait, you are only allowed to walk".. That's utterly silly.

[Tribesman]

x-danger , did my post fly right past you without you being able to grasp anything in it ~;)

[x-dANGEr]

Reading this post:


x-danger , did my post fly right past you without you being able to grasp anything in it
I think it might.. *confused*

[Fragony]

Now I understand why diplomacy fails :laugh4:

[Tribesman]

think it might.. *confused*
Well you should be , as the Israeli "rules" make no sense .
The reason why they are targeting certain types of vehicle is because they say they can be used to transport missiles . Leaving aside the fact that lengthwise you can fit a missile , apart from the newer Fajr ones they are using , into an estate car (station wagon for those that speak funny English) which makes nonsense of only targeting mini-buses or vans .
But motorcycles ?????? Now I know as a local you are quite familiar with the amazing amount of cargo and people that can be perched on even the smallest bone rattling clapped out motor scooter , but a missile would be just ever so slightly suspicious would it not .
So how valid is this "warning" that Israel has given to the locals ?
Not that they bother following it as there are lots of ordinary cars being attcked as well .

BTW the IDF estimates that 20% of the population will not be able to evacuate from the south , the UN estimates up to 46% .
So is it acceptable to shell the civilians homes when you know they cannot get out , yet justify it by saying you told them to get out ?

Oh , and the other silly bit in the post about killing fleeing civilians because of the colour of their clothes is from another conflict involving another country . Which shows that it isn't just the mid-east that is mad .

[Pannonian]

Oh , and the other silly bit in the post about killing fleeing civilians because of the colour of their clothes is from another conflict involving another country . Which shows that it isn't just the mid-east that is mad .
Anything to do with the British? We've done some pretty outrageous things in our time, and invented some even more outrageous excuses to justify them. Churchill was particularly fertile in both fields.

[Geoffrey S]

Seeing a lot of pictures of bombed-out Lebanon; barely any of bombed north Israel (Haifa et al). Biased reporting?

[orangat]

Seeing a lot of pictures of bombed-out Lebanon; barely any of bombed north Israel (Haifa et al). Biased reporting?

Considering the interim death toll is a lopsided 10-1 in favour of the Israeli's maybe theres just less to show in Haifa?

[Tribesman]

Anything to do with the British?
Not that I know of , though they were also there with the UN forces , it was one of your allies in that particular conflict .

[Geoffrey S]

Considering the interim death toll is a lopsided 10-1 in favour of the Israeli's maybe theres just less to show in Haifa?
Death toll isn't all there is. Goodness knows how many wounded there are on either side; that could mean anything from plenty of scrapes to lost limbs. Either way, although Lebanon has been hit harder there must be plenty of damage to places such as Haifa, whether the impacts killed or not.

That, and it's easier to evacuate on the Israeli side since their infrastructure is still intact, so there would be less casualties. The same most definitely can't be said of Lebanon.

[Pannonian]

Anything to do with the British?
Not that I know of , though they were also there with the UN forces , it was one of your allies in that particular conflict .
Gissa clue. It's always entertaining to read about military idiocies.

[Tribesman]

Gissa clue.

OK a little clue .
The conflict is still officialy going on 56 years and 1 month later (as of tomorrow) .
Is that a big enough clue :2thumbsup:

[x-dANGEr]

Death toll isn't all there is. Goodness knows how many wounded there are on either side; that could mean anything from plenty of scrapes to lost limbs. Either way, although Lebanon has been hit harder there must be plenty of damage to places such as Haifa, whether the impacts killed or not.

That, and it's easier to evacuate on the Israeli side since their infrastructure is still intact, so there would be less casualties. The same most definitely can't be said of Lebanon.
The Israeli authorities have "forbidden" media coverage in many areas, to avoid "releasing info about important places" or something like that.. (I have no link, that's what they're saying on the TV all day.. Evolving from why they have no pics about Israel..)

[Husar]

But motorcycles ?????? Now I know as a local you are quite familiar with the amazing amount of cargo and people that can be perched on even the smallest bone rattling clapped out motor scooter , but a missile would be just ever so slightly suspicious would it not .
http://www.bitrot.de/missile.jpg

~D

[Dâriûsh]

http://www.bitrot.de/missile.jpg

~D Praise Allah!!!!111!!1 Our new secret weapon!!!

[orangat]

Death toll isn't all there is. Goodness knows how many wounded there are on either side; that could mean anything from plenty of scrapes to lost limbs. Either way, although Lebanon has been hit harder there must be plenty of damage to places such as Haifa, whether the impacts killed or not.

That, and it's easier to evacuate on the Israeli side since their infrastructure is still intact, so there would be less casualties. The same most definitely can't be said of Lebanon.

So why claim biased reporting in your previous post? Especially now that Israel is running roughshod over civilians in Lebanon? Theres a half million refugees milling about with bridges and roads taken out by Israeli bombs. Surely the news has got to be 10x hotter in Lebanon than it is in Haifa.

[Pannonian]

Gissa clue.

OK a little clue .
The conflict is still officialy going on 56 years and 1 month later (as of tomorrow) .
Is that a big enough clue :2thumbsup:
Found it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri

[x-dANGEr]

Found it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri
Meh.. How do you use these things.. 0-i

[Geoffrey S]

So why claim biased reporting in your previous post? Especially now that Israel is running roughshod over civilians in Lebanon? Theres a half million refugees milling about with bridges and roads taken out by Israeli bombs. Surely the news has got to be 10x hotter in Lebanon than it is in Haifa.
I wasn't aware of Israel banning reporting from their side of the border, as x-DANGEr pointed out. First thought was biased reporting, since that tends to happen in the region; initial attention on whatever crime Palestinians would commit, then largescale focus on whatever the Israelis get up to next whilst the original cause is forgotten. Apparently this is not the case right now, or not as much as I thought. European media is usually rather one-sided when it comes to Israel, despite protestations to the contrary.

Though I am still curious about how things are in north Israel.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wasn't aware of Israel banning reporting from their side of the border, as x-DANGEr pointed out. First thought was biased reporting, since that tends to happen in the region; initial attention on whatever crime Palestinians would commit, then largescale focus on whatever the Israelis get up to next whilst the original cause is forgotten. Apparently this is not the case right now, or not as much as I thought. European media is usually rather one-sided when it comes to Israel, despite protestations to the contrary.

Though I am still curious about how things are in north Israel.

Whilst the BBC is no longer quite the bastion of independent reporting that it was, there have been stories posted there about the Israeli predicament:

20 July (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5197326.stm)

19 July (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5193306.stm)

The UK's Channel 4 News is pretty decent about covering both sides too, at least in broadcast.

Not as many pictures of dying babies of course, as Lebanon appears to have that market covered.

UPDATE: A BBC analysis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm) from today. If you look at the In Pictures Sidebar link, you will see a selection of photos that show the pain and exhaustion of the IDF soldiers, as well as the suffering of Lebanon. I'd say it was fairly balanced reporting.

[kataphraktoi]

The hopping smilie was my indication that the preceding had been presented "tongue-in-cheek." Actually, so in-cheek that there was some danger of a puncture.

Extra-national terrorism must be crushed -- it cannot be negotiated. Internal guerilla conflicts are bad enough, but terrorism is vile and contemptible.

Remember, the leaders of the true militant sub-factions do not want compromise and they are only somewhat interested in victory. What matters most is power, and in the racking chaos of constant bloodshed THEY are the ones who sit atop the heap. That the heap is made of the skulls of children bothers them little or not at all.

Sadly, thats true.

I just watched the news the other night and can't belive that Israel took out a Maronite tv broadcasting tower :dizzy2:

I know the Maronites don't like Israel, but the Maronite don't necessarily like the Hezbollah either....yeesh.

THis war is a big big big big GREY FOG.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'll keep this in here, rather than start yet another thread.

Looks like Israel is not above using civilians as human shields either:

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5212870.stm)


Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic
By Lucy Williamson
BBC News, Gaza

The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

Hazem Ali says he was subjected to a terrifying 12-hour ordeal
There are piles of rubble leading up to the hole in Hazem Ali's house.

It's a week since Israel came into Beit Hanoun, but the gash in the side of his house is still raw, the soft inside of family life still visible through the lumps of concrete hanging from the wall. A broken bed; a few girders dripping onto it; an elegant wardrobe still standing against the back wall.

It was soon after dawn when the Israeli army bulldozed their way in. Hazem was still sleeping, taking a break from his job as an engineer with the local Palestinian news agency.

'Blindfolded'

It was his mother who met them in the hallway, Israeli soldiers in a Palestinian home. Behind her, Hazem and his two brothers emerged, one by one.

The three brothers were blindfolded, says Hazem, and their hands tied behind their backs. He shows me the wounds on his wrists from the plastic handcuffs - still sore and infected, but beginning to heal over.

He shows me where the soldiers positioned them: outside the entrance to his flat on the third floor, in the stairwell, facing down the steps.

"I think they put us here because they were expecting suiciders to come into the flat because none of the soldiers were on the stairs - they were all inside the flat. They put us here so we'll be shot first."

Inside the flat, the soldiers punched holes in the walls of his living room, and bedroom. Through them, snipers exchanged fire with Palestinian militants. Hazem and his brothers heard it all, but could see nothing.

Hazem says he had little idea at the time exactly how long he was kept there. All he remembers was listening to the heavy gunfire around him, and counting the calls to prayer as they echoed over the area: one at lunchtime, one at tea-time, and one in the evening as the sun set. Twelve hours in all.

He says he expected to die any second. He still can't understand why, as civilians, they couldn't be kept in a room somewhere inside the house, where they would have been safer. But they put us in the middle of the clashes, he says. "There was no need for that."

Allegations over Israel's use of human shields have surfaced before. The last time they made headlines was during Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank town of Jenin, four years ago.

The army denied its personnel systematically used civilians as human shields during that operation, but it did issue an order outlawing the practice. As did the Israeli High Court.

But Yekhezel Lain, research director with the Israeli human rights group B'tselem says they are worried those guarantees are now being eroded. He says the cases in Beit Hanoun last week are the first of their kind since the High Court decision.

"This was a very blatant violation of the prohibition of the use of human shields," he tells me. "It was just soldiers hiding behind the back of civilians who were held with force in their homes."

B'tselem says it is investigating reports of other, similar incidents in Gaza during the past month. And it is worried that - having withdrawn from Gaza last year - the Israeli army may see the area as distinct from other Palestinian Territories.

The group is concerned about Israel establishing different rules in the case of the Gaza Strip where according to the state, there is no occupation any more - it's only a state of war, or armed conflict. The human rights group does not believe there is a difference when it comes to the protection of civilians.

The IDF told the BBC the claims in Beit Hanoun were being investigated, and that its soldiers were obliged to act in accordance with moral principles and the rules of engagement. Any misconduct, they said, would be looked into.

As he waits for news of his case in Beit Hanoun, Hazem Ali has got the builders in to fill the holes in his flat, re-glaze his windows and repair as much of the damage as he can.

His wife, meanwhile, is preparing for the birth of their first child. She is half Egyptian, and has been asking Hazem to move out of the Gaza Strip for months now. But he refuses to leave. There's no running away from Gaza, he says.

Note that this was reported by an Israeli human rights group. This is important to note, not least to challenge the idea that all Israelis agree with their government's actions, but most of all to understand that Israel at least has human rights watchdogs and a High Court that tries to curb excesses. Hamas and Hezbollah have no such checks.

But the brutality of war is clearly seeping into even disciplined regular forces.

"He who fights with a monster might take care lest he thusly become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into you."
F. Nietsche

:shame:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'll keep this in here, rather than start yet another thread.

Looks like Israel is not above using civilians as human shields either:

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5212870.stm)


Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic
By Lucy Williamson
BBC News, Gaza

The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

Hazem Ali says he was subjected to a terrifying 12-hour ordeal
There are piles of rubble leading up to the hole in Hazem Ali's house.

It's a week since Israel came into Beit Hanoun, but the gash in the side of his house is still raw, the soft inside of family life still visible through the lumps of concrete hanging from the wall. A broken bed; a few girders dripping onto it; an elegant wardrobe still standing against the back wall.

It was soon after dawn when the Israeli army bulldozed their way in. Hazem was still sleeping, taking a break from his job as an engineer with the local Palestinian news agency.

'Blindfolded'

It was his mother who met them in the hallway, Israeli soldiers in a Palestinian home. Behind her, Hazem and his two brothers emerged, one by one.

The three brothers were blindfolded, says Hazem, and their hands tied behind their backs. He shows me the wounds on his wrists from the plastic handcuffs - still sore and infected, but beginning to heal over.

He shows me where the soldiers positioned them: outside the entrance to his flat on the third floor, in the stairwell, facing down the steps.

"I think they put us here because they were expecting suiciders to come into the flat because none of the soldiers were on the stairs - they were all inside the flat. They put us here so we'll be shot first."

Inside the flat, the soldiers punched holes in the walls of his living room, and bedroom. Through them, snipers exchanged fire with Palestinian militants. Hazem and his brothers heard it all, but could see nothing.

Hazem says he had little idea at the time exactly how long he was kept there. All he remembers was listening to the heavy gunfire around him, and counting the calls to prayer as they echoed over the area: one at lunchtime, one at tea-time, and one in the evening as the sun set. Twelve hours in all.

He says he expected to die any second. He still can't understand why, as civilians, they couldn't be kept in a room somewhere inside the house, where they would have been safer. But they put us in the middle of the clashes, he says. "There was no need for that."

Allegations over Israel's use of human shields have surfaced before. The last time they made headlines was during Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank town of Jenin, four years ago.

The army denied its personnel systematically used civilians as human shields during that operation, but it did issue an order outlawing the practice. As did the Israeli High Court.

But Yekhezel Lain, research director with the Israeli human rights group B'tselem says they are worried those guarantees are now being eroded. He says the cases in Beit Hanoun last week are the first of their kind since the High Court decision.

"This was a very blatant violation of the prohibition of the use of human shields," he tells me. "It was just soldiers hiding behind the back of civilians who were held with force in their homes."

B'tselem says it is investigating reports of other, similar incidents in Gaza during the past month. And it is worried that - having withdrawn from Gaza last year - the Israeli army may see the area as distinct from other Palestinian Territories.

The group is concerned about Israel establishing different rules in the case of the Gaza Strip where according to the state, there is no occupation any more - it's only a state of war, or armed conflict. The human rights group does not believe there is a difference when it comes to the protection of civilians.

The IDF told the BBC the claims in Beit Hanoun were being investigated, and that its soldiers were obliged to act in accordance with moral principles and the rules of engagement. Any misconduct, they said, would be looked into.

As he waits for news of his case in Beit Hanoun, Hazem Ali has got the builders in to fill the holes in his flat, re-glaze his windows and repair as much of the damage as he can.

His wife, meanwhile, is preparing for the birth of their first child. She is half Egyptian, and has been asking Hazem to move out of the Gaza Strip for months now. But he refuses to leave. There's no running away from Gaza, he says.

Note that this was reported by an Israeli human rights group. This is important to note, not least to challenge the idea that all Israelis agree with their government's actions, but most of all to understand that Israel at least has human rights watchdogs and a High Court that tries to curb excesses. Hamas and Hezbollah have no such checks.

But the brutality of war is clearly seeping into even disciplined regular forces.


Banquo:

Not sure about their interp of things. Given that they were using the rooms with exterior walls as an impromput bunker, and that what is being described is probably the central stairwell of an apartment building, it may well be that the Israeli soldiers involved were placing them it what was the safest possible location to prevent them catching rounds from outside. I'm guessing they were confident enough of their perimeter that the family in question was not being used as a defense against bombers -- who would have just walked up and blown up the bomb anyway.

Now, if this was an open stairwell on the outside of a building, then things would be a little less than "kosher."

:wall: Should have resisted that one.....weak, weak, weak.

[Geoffrey S]

Is it possible to take out Hezbollah, militarily? It seems they enjoy largescale support in the south of Lebanon. Attacks now seem to weaken the Lebanese government more than their opponents; in fact, Hezbollah gained much of its current support from its relatively succesful actions against Israel when they last occupied Lebanon.

Only thing I can think of is that Israel is trying to force a UN peacekeeping force into south Lebanon, which saves them occupying and may tip the balance enough in Lebanon to make disarming Hezbollah viable.

Whilst the BBC is no longer quite the bastion of independent reporting that it was, there have been stories posted there about the Israeli predicament:

20 July (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5197326.stm)

19 July (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5193306.stm)

The UK's Channel 4 News is pretty decent about covering both sides too, at least in broadcast.

Not as many pictures of dying babies of course, as Lebanon appears to have that market covered.
Cheers, hadn't seen the first link. I'll check Channel 4 this evening, thanks.

[orangat]

I wasn't aware of Israel banning reporting from their side of the border, as x-DANGEr pointed out. First thought was biased reporting, since that tends to happen in the region; initial attention on whatever crime Palestinians would commit, then largescale focus on whatever the Israelis get up to next whilst the original cause is forgotten. Apparently this is not the case right now, or not as much as I thought. European media is usually rather one-sided when it comes to Israel, despite protestations to the contrary.

Though I am still curious about how things are in north Israel.

If anything the European media is more even handed instead of being hopeless biased like the US news networks. See the documentary in my post #64 for the 'crimes' Palestinians commit. As for cornering the market dying baby pictures, the Lebanese body count is at least 10x higher.

For the first time in many years, Israel has suddenly found it can't go on a rampage without the world finding out about it like it usually can with relative impunity in Gaza or the West Bank, because Lebanon is well connected. That is why I'm not surprised the Maronite TV station got bombed - Israel is simply taking the easy way out to avoid bad press.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Not sure about their interp of things. Given that they were using the rooms with exterior walls as an impromput bunker, and that what is being described is probably the central stairwell of an apartment building, it may well be that the Israeli soldiers involved were placing them it what was the safest possible location to prevent them catching rounds from outside. I'm guessing they were confident enough of their perimeter that the family in question was not being used as a defense against bombers -- who would have just walked up and blown up the bomb anyway.

You may be right. Twelve hours is a long time to keep civilians trussed up in a firefight zone, however. If their safety was so important to the troops, they would have a mechanism for evacuating quickly. It's not like they haven't done this kind of op before. We certainly had strict methodologies for evac in Northern Ireland - but then we didn't do a lot of bulldozing of people's houses either.


Now, if this was an open stairwell on the outside of a building, then things would be a little less than "kosher."

:wall: Should have resisted that one.....weak, weak, weak.

May the Lord have mercy on your sense of humour. :wink:

[kataphraktoi]

I tend to find European media presses actually disparaging of Israel. Theres some sort of monkey see, monkey do mentality with them. Perhaps they have this view that Israel represents everything to do with their colonial past and seek to compensate for it.

While I admire Human Rights Groups and their efforts, some of them are used as propaganda tools. Israel using human shield is possible, but in areas where conflicts usually take place in civlian areas, civilians will get caught and incidentally caught between the two hostile parties. Either one could be an unintended shield in between this conflict.

If it is true that Israel uses human shields, they are certainly treading on very very thin ground.

But at the same time, its not realistic in any conflict, to separate civilians from combatants. You tell civilians to evacuate and then let the combatants go iinto the conflict zone to batter the crap out of each other? Is that the way it should work everytime according to HR groups. I know the concern of HR groups, but seriously, war is waged inefficiently or ineffectively to separate civlians from conflict.

Kosher Kombat anyone???

[Vladimir]

Reuters pic from a "pro Lebanon" rally:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060718NewYork01.jpg

Notice the swastika in the foreground sign and the words "Islam will dominate" under the white house sign in back.

There are quite a few more on the site too.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21713_Terror_Supporters_in_New_York_City&only

[Banquo's Ghost]

Notice the swastika in the foreground sign and the words "Islam will dominate" under the white house sign in back.

Lovely people. Lebanon really needs support like that. :no:

Islamic Thinkers Society? Not a lot of thinking evident in that demonstration, I'm afraid.

[x-dANGEr]

That picture shows a lot of hate.. Do you blame them?

[Tribesman]

If it is true that Israel uses human shields, they are certainly treading on very very thin ground.

If it is true that they are doing it again then they are not on thin ground at all , they are falling into a chasm .
The israeli court ruling was very very clear (whoda thought that a civilised democracy would even have to go all the way to the top courts to stop a barbaric practice eh) . And the IDF issued orders that were very clear and to the point , an unequivocal order was the exact term they used , the practice of using human shields and human bomb detectors must stop .
So I wonder if some of the soldiers may have forgotten their orders .

[Pannonian]

That picture shows a lot of hate.. Do you blame them?
Yes.

[x-dANGEr]

Yes.
Well, I don't.

[orangat]

I tend to find European media presses actually disparaging of Israel. Theres some sort of monkey see, monkey do mentality with them. Perhaps they have this view that Israel represents everything to do with their colonial past and seek to compensate for it.

.........

Is revealing the truth and being even handed considered disparaging? The US media hardly or never mentions the proper context of the violence in Palestine as a result of the military occupation or make up innocous terms like "neighbourhood" instead of saying flat out - illegal Jewish settlement. Just plug in the terms "israeli occupation" in cnn.com and bbc.co.uk. The cnn website will have a poor hitrate and might only mention the occupation in passing while bbc will have some links of the occupation on the first page of results.

Going by the US news networks, one gets the impression that the Israeli-Palestinian issue would be over and done with if only the Palestinians make some small concessions towards the Israel - without any regard for giving Palestinians their just due under international law in the issues of the illegal occupation, right of return, illegal Israeli settlements etc.

[Redleg]

And it is about to get worse, I heard two things on a radio news report that I have not yet been able to confirm as of yet turn out to be true.

Again possible nothing - but the two reports were this.

Syria has upgraded its readiness posture to the highest defensive one and some are spectulating that its going into an offensive posture.

Iran is sending not only supplies now but has announced that 27 sucide bombers are being sent to Lebanon to restart the Lebonese civil war.


Now I will search the net in the morning to see if there is any actual meat to these two stories or if they are just more rumors being generated by the crisis.

[kataphraktoi]

Is revealing the truth and being even handed considered disparaging? The US media hardly or never mentions the proper context of the violence in Palestine as a result of the military occupation or make up innocous terms like "neighbourhood" instead of saying flat out - illegal Jewish settlement. Just plug in the terms "israeli occupation" in cnn.com and bbc.co.uk. The cnn website will have a poor hitrate and might only mention the occupation in passing while bbc will have some links of the occupation on the first page of results.

Going by the US news networks, one gets the impression that the Israeli-Palestinian issue would be over and done with if only the Palestinians make some small concessions towards the Israel - without any regard for giving Palestinians their just due under international law in the issues of the illegal occupation, right of return, illegal Israeli settlements etc.

For those predisposed towards Palestinians, the European media is a godsend and of course will be considered a "truthful" reporter, but as I said before, Israel seems to represent the a past of the European history they don't like so it seems they are view Israel as such. Although don't get me wrong, I don't think they are Anti-Semites, just ideologically biased.


If it is true that they are doing it again then they are not on thin ground at all , they are falling into a chasm .
The israeli court ruling was very very clear (whoda thought that a civilised democracy would even have to go all the way to the top courts to stop a barbaric practice eh) . And the IDF issued orders that were very clear and to the point , an unequivocal order was the exact term they used , the practice of using human shields and human bomb detectors must stop .
So I wonder if some of the soldiers may have forgotten their orders .

War is not waged perfectly, that much is certain, but it does seem to be an official or generally practiced tactic but an isolated incident that re-occurs with infrequently. Must take into account whether it is deliberate, or incidental. No dobut in some cases, it is deliberate, in others, incidental.


Reuters pic from a "pro Lebanon" rally:



Notice the swastika in the foreground sign and the words "Islam will dominate" under the white house sign in back.

There are quite a few more on the site too.

Its all part of a cycle really, and yes I would blame them...because they want to annihilate the whole of Israel and so Israel is expected to take it lightly and smile?

[Big_John]

Reuters pic from a "pro Lebanon" rally:

Notice the swastika in the foreground sign and the words "Islam will dominate" under the white house sign in back.

There are quite a few more on the site too.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21713_Terror_Supporters_in_New_York_City&onlyunfortunately, as those protesters were found in mid-town manhattan, israel has flown jets over new york, and dropped leaflets reading, "new yorkers, your inability to rein in the protesters has left us with no choice but to destroy your "civil infrastructure". we are not your enemies; your leaders failed you in letting these protesters run amok. the bombing will commence shortly, and you should all leave. have a nice day."

:creep:

[Banquo's Ghost]

unfortunately, as those protesters were found in mid-town manhattan, israel has flown jets over new york, and dropped leaflets reading, "new yorkers, your inability to rein in the protesters has left us with no choice but to destroy your "civil infrastructure". we are not your enemies; your leaders failed you in letting these protesters run amok. the bombing will commence shortly, and you should all leave. have a nice day."

Nah, they just took it out on the UN (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm).


Israeli bomb kills UN observers
Israeli strike in Khiam, south Lebanon

Four United Nations observers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in south Lebanon.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "shocked" at the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the post. Israel has expressed "deep regret".

Israel earlier said it would control an area in southern Lebanon until international forces deployed.

The force will be discussed at international crisis talks to be held in Rome on Wednesday.

The meeting is being attended by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Mr Annan, as well as foreign ministers and top officials from five European and four Arab countries.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall said the Italian prime minister and others believe a quick ceasefire to be the main priority.

But the US and Britain will not push for a ceasefire unless root causes of the conflict are addressed, she adds.

The summit will take place without a delegation from Israel.

Ms Rice will attend the talks after ending her tour of the Middle East on Tuesday.

More than 380 Lebanese and 42 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of conflict in Lebanon, which began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on 12 July.

The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the post, in which four military observers were sheltering.

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble.

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN Observer post in southern Lebanon," Mr Annan said in a statement from Rome.

Unifil has been operational in the border area since 1978 and is currently 2,000 strong.

Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has vowed the group will continue its rocket attacks on Israel.

Mr Nasrallah told Hezbollah's al-Manar television that the militant group would fire rockets deeper into Israel and would counter any Israeli advance into southern Lebanon, and criticised what he called an Israeli-US plan for a "new Middle East".

"There is no way that we can accept any humiliating conditions on us, our people or our country... especially after all these sacrifices... we are open to political discussions and solutions with flexibility, but the dignity and national interest is a red line."

In other military action:

* The Israeli army said it had killed a senior Hezbollah commander, Abu Jaafar, in fighting in southern Lebanon

* Earlier the UN said Israeli forces were now in control of the town of Bint Jbeil after fierce fighting and were moving on the village of Yaroun to the south

* Israel resumed air raids on Beirut, with explosions heard in southern suburbs - a Hezbollah stronghold

* Hezbollah fired more Katyusha rockets into Israel, killing a 15-year-old Arab-Israeli girl in the northern Israeli village of Maghar and striking Haifa with a large salvo

* Hezbollah said 27 of its fighters had been killed as of Monday, but the Israeli military said it had killed "some dozens".

Earlier, Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz had said a "security zone" in southern Lebanon would be maintained "under the control of our forces if there is not a multinational force".

He said: "We have no other option. We have to build a new security strip that will be a cover for our forces."

He did not specify whether Israeli troops would remain there but insisted they would "continue to control [Hezbollah]" in their operations.

Israeli government sources have estimated the width of the zone at anything from three to 10km (1.9-6.2 miles).

An unnamed Israeli official quoted by Reuters news agency said between 10,000 and 20,000 international peacekeepers would be needed.

BBC defence and security correspondent Rob Watson says Israeli details on the zone - and how it will be secured - are far from clear.

He says it is possible Mr Peretz is trying to put pressure on the international community to deliver the peacekeeping force.

Earlier, Ms Rice met Israeli PM Ehud Olmert and later Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Mr Abbas called for an immediate end to "aggression against the Gaza Strip and the West Bank" and for an "immediate ceasefire" in Lebanon.

Ms Rice said the only solution was a sustainable and enduring peace.

Her words were reinforced later by US President George W Bush who said: "I support a sustainable ceasefire that will bring about an end to violence... Our mission and our goal is to have a lasting peace, not a temporary peace."

In his meeting with Ms Rice, Mr Olmert said he was "very conscious" of the humanitarian needs of Lebanon's civilians, but insisted Israel was defending itself against terrorism.

[Dâriûsh]

And it is about to get worse, I heard two things on a radio news report that I have not yet been able to confirm as of yet turn out to be true.

Again possible nothing - but the two reports were this.

Syria has upgraded its readiness posture to the highest defensive one and some are spectulating that its going into an offensive posture.
Let’s wait and see if the most honourable and most courageous president-for-life, Assad Junior, is willing to risk his life and palace in a war with Israel.



Iran is sending not only supplies now but has announced that 27 sucide bombers are being sent to Lebanon to restart the Lebonese civil war.


Could be this: Iran: Suicide bombers joined Hizbullah in Lebanon, lunatic says. (http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.323266981&par=0)

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

Reuters pic from a "pro Lebanon" rally:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060718NewYork01.jpg

Notice the swastika in the foreground sign and the words "Islam will dominate" under the white house sign in back.


Isn't that Von Rosen's cross? What on earth finnish air forces are doing in Israel?
If they are referring to natzies, they should at least draw their symbol correctly...

[Redleg]

Let’s wait and see if the most honourable and most courageous president-for-life, Assad Junior, is willing to risk his life and palace in a war with Israel.


I would be willing to bet that Syria won't, but at this point it seem that escalation is all that is happening.



Could be this: Iran: Suicide bombers joined Hizbullah in Lebanon, lunatic says. (http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.323266981&par=0)

Yep that sounds like it. And it looks like the second part of what I heard was indeed spin, since the article states zionist targets.

[x-dANGEr]

Just those who do blame those protesters: Why do you think they hate Israel? Just for the heck of it?

Note: It is aginst Israel, AI the goverment, not the people.. Though, at any cost, I'm not sure people around here like Israelis too much anyway.. ~:(

[R'as al Ghul]

What does the (swt) in Allah (swt) mean?


(in the pro libanon rally pic)

[x-dANGEr]

I don't know.. (NO IDEA 0-i )

[Banquo's Ghost]

What does the (swt) in Allah (swt) mean?



Muslims, when referring to the name of Allah, often append the phrase "Subhanahu wa Ta`ala", sometimes abbreviated SWT, (english: "Glorified and Exalted is He") as a sign of reverence.

Reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah).

[R'as al Ghul]

Excellent. Thanks for the info, mate.

:bow:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Just those who do blame those protesters: Why do you think they hate Israel? Just for the heck of it?

Note: It is aginst Israel, AI the goverment, not the people.. Though, at any cost, I'm not sure people around here like Israelis too much anyway.. ~:(

Well, if you look at the photos, a remarkable number of them appear Caucasian Americans. So I have no idea why they would hate Israel so much, but for the heck of it seems as likely a reason as any.

The point that they miss (and that you nearly got in your addendum) is that one might hate Israel's actions rather than the country or the people. But that protest does not allow for the existence of Israel at all, peaceable or warlike, and therein lies the rub. They even have pictures of the US White House under the flag of their religion, which, should it ever happen, would guarantee that their right to protest would be severely curtailed under their religious laws.

Stop making excuses for violence, and let's stop the violence.

[orangat]

For those predisposed towards Palestinians, the European media is a godsend and of course will be considered a "truthful" reporter, but as I said before, Israel seems to represent the a past of the European history they don't like so it seems they are view Israel as such. Although don't get me wrong, I don't think they are Anti-Semites, just ideologically biased.
..........

I'm hardly predisposed towards the Palestinians and Muslims in general. I say again, why is reporting the Palestinian issue in its true context of being under the Israeli occupation and being denied their just rights under international law considered biased?

You haven't actually brought up a single point or issue that directly implicates the European media of biased reporting. Simply saying that they are just being 'ideologically biased' doesn't cut it.

I have given my reasons above and in my post #64. If you think that the issues raised in documentary Peace and Propaganda are flat out wrong, biased, inaccurate or doesn't tell the whole truth, I'd like to know about it.

[Pannonian]

Just those who do blame those protesters: Why do you think they hate Israel? Just for the heck of it?

Those of us who blame the protestors think there are more constructive and, frankly, more effective ways of voicing and solving the problem. I don't like what Israel is doing either, but I think these people, given the opportunity, would do far worse.



Note: It is aginst Israel, AI the goverment, not the people.. Though, at any cost, I'm not sure people around here like Israelis too much anyway.. ~:(
These protests are usually against the state of Israel, its inhabitants, and Jews in general. Living in a city that was bombed by Muslim extremists, yet which tries to integrate the majority into the mainstream despite the continued provocations of radicals, I have little sympathy for these young guns. If they should ever want to martyr themselves for the greater glory of their cause they should just jump off a cliff and spare us the consequences.

I'm a great admirer of historical Islam. Pity about their descendants.

[Big_John]

Well, if you look at the photos, a remarkable number of them appear Caucasian Americans. So I have no idea why they would hate Israel so much, but for the heck of it seems as likely a reason as any.caucasian americans can be muslim.. and rightly or not, many muslims aren't too fond of israel.

[Shaun]

caucasian americans can be muslim.. and rightly or not, many muslims aren't too fond of israel.

Hmm, I wonder why this is?

[Redleg]

Well I found the reference to Syria possible getting involved. Its not as sure as the radio news cast made it out to be.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060726/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictsyria_060726125851;_ylt=Asf__CJWfUkyb2RI3qiJCEALtUsB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVR PUCUl


His comments came after Foreign Minister Walid al-Muallem said Syria could intervene in the ongoing crisis, laying down similar conditions in an interview.