Jagged Alliance 2 Gold [Archive]

econ21

07-28-2006, 15:58

Jagged Alliance 2 is one of the absolute best games made ever. :2thumbsup:

The basic squad-level tactical combat has not been bettered. I'm replaying Fallout Tactics right now and it is ok, but just not a patch on JA2. The open strategic layer of JA2 (economy, recruitment, quests, city conquests etc) is a wonderful way of hanging the battles together. It is kind of like Total War in that respect - mixing the tactical and strategic levels in a very successful way. And the game just oozes character and atmosphere from the moment you load up your laptop and the screen fades seamlessly into the strategic interface. It is jaw-droppingly good. (And Deidranna can never slap Elliott enough for it not to be funny).

You have done well rescuing Maria - here's some spoilers about what else to do in Kingpin's town:

have you given the deed to the gay shopkeeper? And you given the porno tape to the lesbian bothering Hans? That opens up the best gundealer, Tony. You also want to do the fighting quest with Kingpin around 11pm - I recommend hiring Bull for it and drugging him up with energy boosts (save after each bout - it's buggy).

I guess you have taken the SAM near Drassen to open up the airport so you can buy stuff from Bobby Ray's? It also opens up the helicopter. I recommend travelling by helicopter - it is fast and you can sleep on the way, arriving refreshed for the battle without running into patrols etc. The one bad thing about JA2 is that you actually fight as an "anti-guerilla" - ie I hide out in the towns, protected by militias, and let Deidranna's men patrol the rural areas. In reality, it should be the other way around. To find the helicopter pilot:

Ask locals and they will give a clue to which swamp he is in. He is in the marshes near Drassen.

What I do next is take the SAM on the west and then the town north of it (Chitzena?). After that, I go back and take out Kingpin. He has a valuable stash of cash - that and the fight winnings will pay for most of your offensive (I recommend Scope). I then head for Cambria, which is a major town with a hospital and quite a few sidequests (talk to people). After that, I go for Alma.

I'd also recommend fighting at night with a team of mainly night ops fighters - it makes the battles much easier.

Bob the Insane

07-28-2006, 16:17

Thanks...

I have found myself an FAQ/guide but I am trying to aviod the spoilers and just look at "the how" of playing the game...

Fight at night? With my bunch of cowboys? It's just like the A-Team in there and the only think keeping us going to the inherent crappiness of the bad guys... :laugh4:

I saw some notes about Jagged Alliance 3 on Gamespot...

http://www.mistgames.ru/eng/projects.php?project_id=2

Additionally, any hints on what "Normal Guns" or "Load of Guns" and "Realistic" or "Sci-fi" setting control?

Husar

07-28-2006, 21:36

Hey, you found the best tactical game I ever played and apart from Total War one of the few round-based games I really like.:2thumbsup:

I always chose lots of guns, so I don´t know what less guns means, but if you choose Sci-fi, then monsters can appear in mines and you have to kill them to get money, I tried it once and it seemed pretty hard.

econ21

07-29-2006, 00:51

You want Loads of Guns - basically it gives you access to the Warsaw Pact armory as well as the NATO stuff. It's just more variety and it also tends to mean that you get long guns quicker - specifically, the very handy SKS rifle.

I would go for Sci-Fi rather than realistic. All it does is open up a fantastic sidequest that you don't want to miss (one of your mines will stop working and it won't be because the vein as run dry...).

For night fighting to be worthwhile, you need mercs with the night ops trait - Scope and Raven are my favs but are too pricey to start with[1]. They give you an extra square of vision at night, which is the difference between clearing a map effortlessly and ending up looking like the extras from the Wild Bunch. I tend to make my custom a night ops + auto weapon expert.

[1]I tend to build from a Eurotrash team - Grunty (night ops + heavy weapons), Igor (all-rounder), Barry (lockpick with electronics skill so escapes nasty traps) and Buns (early sniper/ mid-game trainer and leader of the B team). As they level up, they match the higher rank mercs in stats but remain cheaper. You want high wisdom for mercs that are keepers - it governs the speed at which their stats rise. But MERC provide some low cost militia trainers (Flo & Biff) plus Gasket who is good at maintaining your weapons. I hire Lynx for 24 hours just to get his mini-M14 at the start of the game - it really helps.

Big King Sanctaphrax

07-29-2006, 00:51

Awesome tactical action? Whorehouses? Gay Shopkeepers?!

I'm sold!

professorspatula

07-29-2006, 03:18

I didn't want to spend anymore money on games or PC stuff, but you lot have made me go and buy this now! :furious3:

Heh, it looks cool, although with no instructions, I've so far spent 4 hours wandering around the place trying to figure out just what the hell I'm supposed to do. I've killed a load of people, but got shot to hell in the process, but really I'm not convinced my team are much cop. I suppose their heads are still attached to their bodies which is a good sign, but few have much in the way of abilities.

I have, however, since found a manual for the game here:
http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.1036

And it's confirmed the fact I didn't really know what I was doing. Actually I haven't done too bad in all and can't wait to find a gun better than the crappy pistols my team have, and the MP5K. A shame I didn't pick the 'loads of guns' option really.

econ21

07-29-2006, 11:02

A shame I didn't pick the 'loads of guns' option really.

I would restart. It's a really long game. But even with "loads of guns", you won't get rifles for a while - your best bet is to fight a patrol or two after taking Drassen. There should be some at the Drassen SAM too, but that's a hard fight. The drip feeding of better weapons is very well done - you really appreciate each the new guns when you get it.

I think if you pick an auto-weapons (and/or high marksmanship?) custom, you start with an MP5K. You usually get a second in Doreen's locker in Drassen. Those two plus Lynx's mini-M14 are a solid start to the game. Pistols are pretty hopeless throughout.

There are quite a few internet resources for the game if you can find them - the designers released a few FAQs explaining the more esoteric stuff; their last - explaining how all the to hit modifiers work out - was very informative. The best walkthrough/FAQ, IIRC, was Patusco's.

The best forum for the game is:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi

Gealai

07-29-2006, 12:48

Ah fond memories:book:

Go for night-combat with mercs like Scope or Shadow after you can afford it. Try to get all stuff helping in detecting the enemy first, like the best NVA's and the hearing devices. Camo is a great help against good enemies.
You can silence machinepistols, making them a great addition to a scoped FN FAL with reduced AP's and increased range. IIRC the FN P90 was best, however it was impractical because it's ammo is so hard to get, so go with a 9mm. Always use the Ap ammo against well armoured soldiers.

A nice tactic is to lure your enemies in an ambush, by making noise by killing a soldier. If your soldiers are down and/or covered and have high accuracy with overlapping arcs of fire it's often a piece of cake. Sometimes it is funny to have a pair of camoed and silent killers on one side :shame:

professorspatula

07-29-2006, 13:31

I decided to restart my game in the end anyway. I kept running into 9 man patrols that were a bit too tough for my band of merry men (and women). Although I could kill the first few, the sheer number of guns and the increasingly annoying lack of accuracy of my merc's pistols sealed their fate.

By the way, what's with the never ending supply of items from the lockers at the airport in Drassen - everytime you leave the screen and come back, the items reappear. Which is nice I suppose to get free flak jackets and 12 gauge ammo. Is this supposed to happen and something that occurs in other places too?

Anyway, I'm off to return being a gun for hire....

econ21

07-29-2006, 14:49

9 men patrols are a bit tough for most early parties - an important part of the early game is avoiding fights that you don't want (you can often withdraw from a map before making contact). I tend to stick to the cities and let the patrols be (although early on they may be a source of rifles).

I never noticed a respawning locker. It does not happen normally. In fact, it's not safe to leave stuff on the strategic map unless it is guarded by the militia - it tends to disappear.

Fragony

07-29-2006, 16:09

Jagged Alliance is crack. Those that love it will LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Silent Storm, get it, now.

professorspatula

07-29-2006, 18:31

I never noticed a respawning locker. It does not happen normally. In fact, it's not safe to leave stuff on the strategic map unless it is guarded by the militia - it tends to disappear.

Actually it seems loads of stuff respawns when you visit an area. This time I'm getting free 7.62mm AP ammo from the airport which I assume is useful later on. And I get a free MP5K and AP rounds when I go to the T-shirt factory. I had a quick look in a FAQ to get me going (trying not to see any spoilers) and there is mention some areas have stuff that respawns, a possible bug.

Currently I'm training militia in Drassen whilst Pablo nicks my stuff. I haven't found the nice pilot yet though, he's better at hiding than I am. So far I'm pleased with the game. There's quite a bit of scope to it what with training militia and dealing with adventure-y bits. Kind of makes me wish X-Com Apocalypse (another squad based game obviously) was released with all the diplomacy, spying and interrogation options it once boasted about. That would have been a hell of a game then.

Bob the Insane

07-29-2006, 18:52

professorspatula - thanks for the link to the manual!! :2thumbsup:

Yeah, my guys seemed okay in the first few flight, but once the opposistion starts getting serious they suddenly can't hit the broadside of a barn!! I have lost 3 mercs so far and no one else at AIM wants to work for me... :oops:

I picked up the militia training thing from a FAQ and at least Dressen can now defend itself. It is really worth maxing out the miltia training in a settlement..

When your stuff is stolen from the airport do you get any notification oe is it simply not there? My first weapons (ammo really) shipment simply didn't turn up (I did get the email).

Fragony - Silent Storm..... interesting...

OOhh... Additionally...

The financies appear to be completed screwed up in my game, bizarre numbers ($1,236,534 deposit, followed by $1,236,432 deduction) and stuff not being subtracted (hiring some mercs)... Any ideas? A bug?

Ciaran

07-29-2006, 21:32

Hey, JA2, that game brought me into the world of game communities, that´s a classic. Is it really already almost seven years? Time sure flies by.

When you suspect that stuff gets stolen by the airport guy, have a stern talk with him and if that doesn´t help, slap him - but be careful not to kill him, you don´t want to face the problems that pop up then.

The finances thing seems odd, have you patched the game? It´s too long ago since I last played, so I can´t recall right now the best patch, but I know for sure it never happened to me.

Silent Storm isn´t bad, but it lacks the flair of JA2, the soldiers aren´t personalities and, of course, the strategic/economic part is missing, too. Oh, and you´ll have to make do with only six men, while in JA2 you can get all eighteen mercs into the action (and you´ll need to do it later on).

econ21

07-29-2006, 21:56

When your stuff is stolen from the airport do you get any notification oe is it simply not there? My first weapons (ammo really) shipment simply didn't turn up (I did get the email).

When your character opens the crate, he/she comments that something is missing if it has been stolen. Without that comment, you may have messed up with the delivery (e.g. not put Drassen as the delivery address).

The financies appear to be completed screwed up in my game, bizarre numbers ($1,236,534 deposit, followed by $1,236,432 deduction) and stuff not being subtracted (hiring some mercs)... Any ideas? A bug?

I don't recall a problem with finances. Those numbers sound rather large. If you hire mercs from MERC you don't pay immediately; there are also some free mercs like Ira and Dimitri.

Daimon

07-30-2006, 11:20

I just got it but i still not know what do just wandering around Omerta..... Maybe i should have watch the movie in the beginning?

econ21

07-30-2006, 12:47

I just got it but i still not know what do just wandering around Omerta..... Maybe i should have watch the movie in the beginning?

Talk to the woman on the first Omerta map and then follow her to the second. She will introduce you to the rebels, who will tell you to go to Drassen and talk to Father Walker.

But basically, the game is admirably open. There's no linear sequence of towns or missions that you have to follow. Just devise your own strategy to liberate all the towns and topple Queen Deidranna. To do that, you need money, so you need to take over the various silver mines attached to the towns. This will give you the funds to pay the mercenaries to do the fighting for you. Most of the weapons and ammo you can actually loot from your enemies.

professorspatula

07-30-2006, 13:32

My finances are full of bizarre large sums being added and subtracted as well right from the start. I also noticed in my first game, my money kept returning to $35,000 even when hiring my mercs and stuff at the beginning. According to the game, I think it's a 2002 version running (1.12), which I assume is the most recent patch version.

Here's my finances for day 1:
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1118/ja2financesyf0.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ja2financesyf0.jpg)

By the way, any recommendations of the number of mercs I should have once I've liberated Drassen? I think I have 8, inc. six AIM members, but there's only a couple of decent expensive ones among them.

Husar

07-30-2006, 13:35

And don´t forget to send Deidranna some flowers.~;) ~D

professorspatula

07-30-2006, 13:50

Hmm, I've just been on the Steam forums, where I bought the game, and it appears this 'Gold Version' ain't all it says it is. By all accounts it's a messed up and broken version with the add-on not even playable. Hurrah for Steam!
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=461189

Bob the Insane

07-31-2006, 01:23

I saw that on the forums too... It seems to be an issue with the steam version... :inquisitive: :furious3:

Well I liked it so much I ordered an orginal copy through Amazon and I would recommend anyone else who is imterest to do the same until Steam sorts it's life out...

econ21

07-31-2006, 01:44

By the way, any recommendations of the number of mercs I should have once I've liberated Drassen? I think I have 8, inc. six AIM members, but there's only a couple of decent expensive ones among them.

That sounds about right - I prefer fighting battles with a single 6 man squad, usually AIM. The rest are militia trainers and repairmen - either freebies or MERCs. The way I keep a manage the finances is to make sure I can lock everyone into 2 week contracts. If I can do that, I know I'll be in the black. It's also cheaper in the long run - both because of the lower rate and because when they go up in level, you delay having to pay the higher fees.

Fragony

07-31-2006, 08:48

Silent Storm isn´t bad, but it lacks the flair of JA2, the soldiers aren´t personalities and, of course, the strategic/economic part is missing, too. Oh, and you´ll have to make do with only six men, while in JA2 you can get all eighteen mercs into the action (and you´ll need to do it later on).

Silent Storm has tons of flair, I like it even more then JA2. JA2 was also pretty damn funny, but it lacks level of cheesiness of Silent Storm. All the characters have their running jokes, and the things they say are so hilarious I just can't help laughing out loud every time I hear it. To make it even better, it looks gorgious and is far more interactive. Everything is destructable, so with the right equipment you can just blow up an entire building instead of using squad tactics, this is a game every turn-based strategy fan should play.

Husar

07-31-2006, 09:14

But Panzerkleins ruin a lot of fun in Silent Storm and it seems more buggy sometimes.
And I cannot remember any funny quotes from the german Silent Storm and modern weapons are better than WW2 weapons.

professorspatula

07-31-2006, 22:15

I knew I never should have looked at this thread and bought the game!

I'm now trying to get a refund off Steam for mis-selling me a game that isn't complete (ie no Gold Edition content available) and largely broken thanks to all the bugs. They have a no refund policy, but with the game as it is at the moment, it clearly isn't a proper working product and thus not what I paid for. I doubt very much they'll care that much though. JA2 is obviously not much of an issue for them, because it's about the only Steam title that doesn't have it's own entry in the Steam support section.

To rub it in, I've seen new sealed box versions available elsewhere for much cheaper than Steam's mess of a version as well.

Bah.

Damn you Bob and your early enthusiasm for JA2 and Steam! ~;p

Bob the Insane

08-01-2006, 00:09

Damn you Bob and your early enthusiasm for JA2 and Steam! ~;p

Sorry... :oops:

Still, nice to discover the game anyway and if you have any luck with complaining please let me know... :2thumbsup:

professorspatula

08-01-2006, 00:59

Doesn't look like I'll have much luck with my complaints if this is anything to go by:

I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. What we offer on Steam is what we were provided by Strategy First. There are no releases pending to deliver anything other than what we are currently offering. I cannot offer you a refund, unfortunately. You can see our policy on refunds through Steam here:

That was a response from Valve/Steam to someone else. So they're happy to keep on selling a broken and incomplete product and blame everyone else. That and their no refunds policy makes them one of the least consumer friendly companies I've ever had the misfortune of doing business with. I can practically guarantee I'll not be buying another Steam powered product for quite some time.

Perhaps there's some internet consumer watchdog site somewhere that can look into this. I won't hold my breath though.

Bob the Insane

08-01-2006, 09:33

Maybe you should take that eMail and contact support at Strategy first...

Actually I just did... We shall see...

econ21

08-01-2006, 12:53

Bob the Insane

08-01-2006, 14:01

Professorspatula, I was able to obtain a "JA2 Gold patch" from a link the Bearpit forums I linked to above (a forum search might track it down). IIRC this is effectively the latest version JA2.exe file. It might make your version from Steam work if you applied it - provided the problem is with the exe file and not with other files. Worth a shot, anyway.

I don't think it will. From what I read on the sites the issues with the Steam version are not so much bugs in the orginal software as they are issues with who Steam runs software in some sort of cached mode and it is data being inconsistantly loaded from Steam cache or memory and/or the orginal files that is causing the issue.

It is not as simple as the software just being provided by Steam, if you copy the Jagged Alliance directory to a different drive and try running the JA2.exe it simply errors stating it can't find Steam.dll...

The more i look at this the less impressed I am...

professorspatula

08-01-2006, 15:33

Maybe you should take that eMail and contact support at Strategy first...

Actually I just did... We shall see...

The point is though, Steam is the vendor/provider. They should be responsible for making sure the content provided is as described before passing it on to the end consumer, ie us. And they know there are problems. Whereas there is no way for us to know beforehand the problem that exists, so them passing the buck is just nonsense.

They've also deleted the post that contained the information from Steam support to further cover up their tracks. I can't wait to see what they say about the support ticket I raised with them. No doubt after about 3 days of waiting for a reply, I'll just get a, 'sorry it's not our fault, and you can't have a refund either' nonsense.

Does anyone know of any websites that tackle US consumer rights etc that can help us poor peeps if Steam continue to refuse to fix the game and refund us? I'm based in the UK, but with Steam being US based, I assume they'll only raise an eyebrow to another US site. Also do you know of any US laws that try to prevent this kind of thing from happening?

PS, I'd be interested to know what Strategy First make of things regardless. Although unless they supplied a non-working version of the game in the first place, it wouldn't necessarily be their responsibility anyway.

professorspatula

08-02-2006, 02:12

Bit of an update for all the 1 or 2 people who actually care about the Steam issue:

Support got back to me saying would I like to 'cancel the order'. It makes it sound like it's an ongoing transaction which is slightly odd as the money is paid and I have the game, or bits of what, whatever you can call the mess they let you download. If this means I can get a refund, then I'm sure as hell taking it.

They also said they are working to bring the 'Unfinished Business' add-on to the game, having not had the full gold content available at the time of sale. So basically when we bought the game, we weren't buying the Gold Edition at that time. They were intending to supply the content at some stage, but a question mark must remain on whether or not it's right to allow the customer to sign a binding agreement with Steam, whilst being unaware of any potential problems that Steam themselves already knew about. I suppose if you look into their user agreement, they cover themselves pretty well, but it's frightening stuff to be honest, and far from customer friendly.

Now I've touched the surface of JA2, I just want a fully working version to be honest. And after this, a non-Steam version as well. I've got some mercs I need to command, some people I need to shoot, and a country to liberate. And then I might go and load the game after doing all that!

econ21

08-02-2006, 22:53

The expansion, Unfinished Business, got disappointing reviews and is not very highly rated by the fans. If you want to buy a copy of JA2, you don't have to restrict yourself to the one that includes the expansion. Try to get a copy with a printed manual if you can, it's a decent one.

All this talk of JA2 is almost tempting me to go back to it, although I have got further with Fallout Tactics than ever before and it is actually growing one me (the quality of the missions does not seem to decline as I feared).

Nikpalj

08-03-2006, 10:47

Just found this thread and had to post a reply... JA2 together with STW and Birth of the Federation is one of the games that, like, shaped me into the person I am today (a loser)...

I still own the 1998 local computer mag CDs with the demo of JA2, I remember there was a realy annoying (lethal) bug - your character couldn't open any doors while crouching, I almost didn't buy the game when it appeared because of this because it totally killed the otherwise huge realism (and immersion)...

God allmighty, but I played that thing for what must be 20 times, enyoying it more and more each time that I played... time seems to go much, much slower when you're 17...

Absolutely the best part of the game for me was, is and forever will be is defending your sectors from invaders using one or two of your mercs (the cheap or free ones) and local millitia) - sometimes it seemed like an action movie (if it weren't for the dumb A.I. of the millitiamen and later on enemy squads with mortars and half a dozen shells. It's very good for practicing different tactics (enemies focus isn't solely on your squad) and I just couldn't resist it - I was always a kind of voyeur...

The thing that took me ages to figure out (and it's a lifesaver later on in the game) is that you can pick up the helo "bullseye" (the target-like marker where the new mercs are dropped of in that first town) and drop it anywhere within safe aerospace (not covered by Deidriannas SAM sites).

Also in the large building stuffed wit bandits maps (the hospital being the personal favourite) try this:
1) lay down a sniper right beside and at the corner of the wall with the main door (actually it's better to equip them with a regular rifle with all the scopes and stuff, snipers eat up too many ap's)
2) get an expert in auto weapons (and equipped with an auto weapon, he he) to sneak up to and open the main door in real-time (stoping right beside it), pull him up to the roof and make him crouch right above the door, a tile or two from the edge...
3) Wait... ;)

Just 4 fun - instead of his auto, make your roof guy use a rocket launcher!

As a general tip - think like it was you yourself there in the field while you're in action (specially in town areas), crouch or move prone where you would do this in the real world, run for short intervals where you would run in the real world... act as if it were your own skin. The experience will get much more immersive and in a short time you will find yourself playing the battles much more intelligently...

Use that *sneak* button intelligently, there are so many opportunities and ways to ambush an A.I., the game itself becomes a wonderful experience when you enter a map feeling absolutely confident, spend half an hour of your life playing cat and mouse with the poor A.I.'s...

Always, always put any kind of cover between you and the bandits! Even your own millitia are cover... ;)

Get your main character's STR to a low lev at start, you can rise it later by punching and kicking stuff. All the locked doors and stuff in various homes are good for this, punching to death unconsciouss enemies (remember that whenever you punch, kick or slash a bandit you eat up a modest amount of their stamina, like he was running around for a minute). Kicking the crap of all those poor cows on that rednecks farm in the midle of the map is a great way of increasing your STR!

Being missed by bullets (or hand to hand attacks) is a great way to increase your agillity! I remember crouching up with (high lev) Raven one time while she was on a rooftop, having 4 or 5 bullets and bursts miss her and her keeping her cool (not going to prone automatically) - I felt like a sword (rifle) saint or something - and her AG rised up for 2 points!

Use HP bullets (grenade or rocket launchers are even better) on those sabertooth tiger-like beasts! There's a travelling salesman that buys their skins and teeth...

All those breaklights actually have a purpose! Throw am at those Elite enemy troops that are dastardly hiding in the dark and picking off your mercs/millitia.

USE those portable water canisters to refresh your stamina, don't just collect and carry them around! These can be a real lifesaver. I remember I had one of my mercs carrying a grenade launcher crawl up for a few meters, under fire, to get closer to a bunch of trees behind of which two bandits were hiding. Well, on their turn there were now FOUR of them and they riddled my merc to pieces, destroying his maxed out body armor and half-killing him. The only way I could get him to drag himself back to cover on the next turn was by taking a swig form the old reliable water can...

Use those darn hand grenades - they won't do much damage but will severely drain the bandit's stamina and usually make them drop their weapons, those small shock grenades are even better at this! It's always more important having a bunch of bandits with 3 or 4 ap's (and your guys switching to auto), even for a turn, then having them all with 10 HP's and a bunch of stamina for them to use their weapons on their turn.

There are so many tactics you can apply... I remember putting my main character and Raven up on a rooftop to lure all the enemies into attacking them, at the same time circling with two or three mercs around the buildings (it was so realistic and exciting when they had to move prone in order to not be spotted through the windows, while my character and Raven were getting into more and more trouble!) finally getting them at the enemies rear (then having to wait that one damn turn in order for their ap's to fill up!), my mercs popping up from the buildings corners and filling the dumb unsuspecting AI's with buckshot...

Hooray - it's always good seeing that JA2 still lives - have fun, guys!

Bob the Insane

08-03-2006, 15:12

Well I have now acquired the boxed version of JA2GP via Amazon and I am well happy...

All the same shooting goodness with the finances working correct (which makes things a little harder) and object not randoming disappearing or respawning (which is just nice)...

professorspatula

08-03-2006, 21:02

I've got a proper boxed copy from ebay also. And everything works fine! Except the game crashes when I try to exit the game, but I hear that's a common problem.

Hopefully I'll receive my refund from Steam shortly also. I'm glad I managed to persuade them to give me one. Just a shame they refused to apologise, nor would they warn future customers of the probs.

Ituralde

08-03-2006, 23:41

:2thumbsup: As some other people here I found this thread and just had to answer it. How many countless hours have I spent playing that game? Well too many, I guess but they were all worth it!

I mean the characters are so well worked out that I wouldn't hire some of them just because I didn't like them. Or have you ever hired to mercenaries that just HATE each other. It's bad, but it's also fun for a while, although you can't keep it up for very long. The best thing I ever did though was while storming Chitzena I used that Cuban Bomb guy (forgot the name) ran up to the enemy, placed some C4 at his feet, ran away with my last AP and... BOOM! So much fun. I only finished the game once thouhg, as the end battles wer so tedious. I would start from the beginning 100 times though just to get this feeling while storming Drassen. Everyone up on the roofs or rather sneak through town. It's so much fun in the beginning where you can run around for cover and everything. Later it's see the enemy first or be shot into pieces.

Still an awesome game. Too bad you had those problems with Steam, but I'm glad they didn't keep you from enjoying this perfect game.

Has anyone here played Unfinished Business? I bought it in the hope of more JA2 mayhem. You can even continue with your save game from JA2, although it's a complete stand-alone campaign. I didn't have any savegames so I started a new game. Well, I got blown to pieces by the enemy on my second encounter EVERY time. I would have my 5-6 guys with their pistols and the enemy would come at me with LAWs and Grenades and Mortars and just completely shoot the crap out of me!

JA2 rocks really! Take your helicopter and get that Statue out of that Southern rich people town right after you've conquered Chitzena. It's just an awesome undercover operation! :2thumbsup:

Nice to see some people here have played it too, and really often I guess, judging from your comments and expert tactics!

professorspatula

08-04-2006, 00:19

Just about every review on Unfinished Business says the enemy are expert marksmen and the difficulty is ridiculous throughout.

Back to the normal campaign, and now I have the non-Steam version (ie a proper working version) it's hard to get used to playing the game properly. No more unlimited funds and respawning weapons. Bah! I'm currently out of dosh and training militia in Drassen, fully aware I'll never be able to afford to keep Lynx and chums when the week is up at this rate. Think I might need another restart.

Ituralde

08-04-2006, 00:33

Start out with the cheaper merchants in the beginning. One Medic, Some All-Rounder, Some Technician, Someone who can really shoot. That should be enough. Also look out for the Leadership trait, makes hiring people easier. Take Ira with you. And by the time you have enough money to afford the more expensive mercs you won't need them anymore because your guys are better than them. Especially the Marksmanship thingie is always skyrocketing.

If I didn't have to learn for some exams nex week I would just dig the game up and start it up myself. :laugh4:

econ21

08-04-2006, 00:36

There are different play styles - some clear maps with one or two mercs, but if you want a full squad, I would imagine Lynx would be too expensive as a keeper. I just took him for the day to get his rifle. He's good, but levelling up a rookie squad is half the fun, IMO.

professorspatula

08-04-2006, 15:32

econ21

08-04-2006, 16:41

Regarding Ira,... She is the most annoying character in a game ever!

Like Father Walker, I have rather a soft spot of young Ira. I would quote what she says about Deidranna at the beginning, but I fear I would fall foul of frogbeastegg. It makes me laugh every time though - coming seemingly out of nowhere and with a rather stilted delivery.

Functionally, she's not a bad character - high wisdom, IIRC, so she learns fast. A good militia trainer who could fight if I could put the effort in training her up, but I don't.

Gealai

08-04-2006, 16:46

Yeah, so many tactics so many tricks. Loved Scope and Shadow as my killercouple, however Ivan and Igor were by far the most funny chars. The voiceacting in the german editon was simply amazing. :balloon2:

Cheers

Nikpalj

08-04-2006, 17:30

Welcome to the machine of Igor Dolvich!
You can leave your message after signal... Here come signal!

Ciaran

08-04-2006, 19:25

Regarding Ira, I need a mod just for her - so she stops saying, 'You got my ear' whenever you click on her. She is the most annoying character in a game ever! I want to rip her ear off and stick it on mantlepiece and explain to her I thought she meant it literally.

Oh, I bet you´d just love Razor, then :laugh4:

The voiceacting in the german editon was simply amazing.
Indeed. A shame that UB let us down in that respect.

Dorkus

08-09-2006, 05:30

Let me just agree with everyone that this is one of the BEST GAMES EVER MADE. Amazing amount of strategy and tactics involved. And there are literally a million ways to play the game.

My personal favorite? Hire raven and make own merc with night ops and head straight west for the chitzena mine. Raven has a nice gun to start with, not to mention amazing accuracy, and she can take out everyone alone, as long as you attack the city in the dark. Once you get that first mine, you can basically head straight for the top mercs: magic, shadow, and scope are my favorites (since agility is hard to train). Grab the other two mines, and you'll soon be on your way to dominating the entire map!

Dorkus

08-09-2006, 05:33

professorspatula

08-09-2006, 19:58

I like the "Lots of Guns" option now I've got into the game. I really like being restricted to having just the occasional magazine for that new assault rifle I've found. Makes you appreciate your ammo more. Well, until you happen across a large stash of it or buy it off the internet!

I love the little touches in the game too - like the crows around the dead bodies (although why don't the people move the bodies that are cluttering up their streets... they incapable of doing anything for themselves?); how bullets ricochet off walls, trees and other obstactles; how people can be blasted off the edge of buildings and fall to their deaths!; and lastly, how your mercs comment when they completely brain another opponent with a lethal shot to the head! I witnessed Ira splatter the enemy's head and thought, that's pretty gross, and then she pipes up and says, 'Ewww, that's disgusting!'. I laughed and I laughed. Cos I'm sad like that! Still laughing now actually, 3 days later.

Bob the Insane

08-09-2006, 20:33

oh, and one place where i'd disagree with some of the others is, i would suggest that you NOT play "tons of guns." It doesn't add much of anything to gameplay (there are already a huge # of guns, and the setting does not add any fundamentally new types), and it just makes keeping track of ammo more tedious.

But then Demetri would be denied the rebels classic weapon choice, and AKM always looks right in the hands of a revolutionary... :laugh4:

Besides I play strategy games, I am into tedious...

econ21

08-09-2006, 21:01

Besides I play strategy games, I am into tedious...

Exactly my sentiments :2thumbsup:

BTW, Professor - have you tried crouching and sneaking up to the crows to thump them? It does wonders for your strength (something I have to economise on in character creation).

professorspatula

08-09-2006, 21:57

I thought most of the stat boosting 'tricks' were removed with version 1.12? Besides, I'm not going to mess around punching carrion bird to boost stats. If troops can't gain bonuses through normal use I don't care.

By the way, is it actually possible to sneak up to someone if you don't have the stealth skill? I seem to find whenever I try sneaking up to someone in stealth mode and crawling, as soon as I spot them and combat mode starts up, they automatically turn around and shoot me regardless. It was even more annoying when I tried to take a heavily guarded building at a Sam site. I didn't have any smoke grenades or tear gas or whatever, and couldn't enter the building without being shot to pieces as I approached the door, so I opted to blow up the outside wall near to where I knew one of the enemy were. Wall blasted, I thought I'd sneak up through the gap in the wall and surprise my enemy. No such luck, saw me coming. Annoyed, I thought I'd see if it was possible to sneak up on him and get the first shot in. About 20 attempts later, I managed it. I just couldn't get the son of a gun to not react as soon as I could see him. I tried things like having the other mercs running around in the opposite direction to catch his attention whilst my would-be stealthy assassin sneaked up on him; I tried throwing rocks; had one chap run past the doorway again etc etc, but still the enemy soldier always reacted first as soon as my merc approached the gap in the wall. Although I try to move my mercs around in stealth mode before battle starts, I more or less find it utterly pointless as the enemy seems to always instinctively react. What am I doing wrong? By the way - that was in novice mode as well. I played in experienced mode all the other times, but felt like removing a bit of the challenge to ease me back into the game after having to restart 5-6 times when I had the stupid Steam version of the game.

econ21

08-09-2006, 23:22

Yes, don't punch crows. Before you know it, you'll be beating up innocent cows in the fields and even annoying sweatshop owners, just to get +1 strength[1].

I don't know much about stealth - I find it works ok at range, but not close up. Facing matters (bad guys don't have eyes in the back of their head). I know what you mean about SAM buildings - the one in Cambria causes me fits. I've tried smoke but it does not help much. Blowing down a wall is a good move, but going through the hole might not be - perhaps charging in from the hole and the door is your best bet. Horde your mustard gas - it is very useful for some such situations. Grenades can also concuss an opponent out of sight if you can land them close enough to him.

[1]Although in my defence, strength only really matters for me for inventory and inventory management is a real pain later on.

professorspatula

08-10-2006, 01:15

Yea I think it was the Cambria Sam site. After getting shot to pieces by walking past the open door which I didn't notice at first, I reloaded and had Ice throw a grenade where the sniper waiting to shoot through the doorway was, but it didn't do much apparently. And blowing up the wall and hitting the same enemy didn't do a lot either. Eventually Wolf managed to sneak up on him and blow him away with his shotgun (heh Wolf is a legend, he already has 60+ kills in just a few missions, about 2-3 times more than the others). I'm convinced those AI have all-seeing eyes though. At one stage after blowing a hole in the wall and the smoke/tear gas (or whatever it is) went off in the building, the sneaky sods snuck out the doorway and crept up to my mercs by the gap in the wall and promptly began to pummel them with lead. Another reload (after my main merc got stunned and blasted to pieces by that damned super vigilant/teflon coated soldier), and I decided to cover the doorway, so when they tried the trick again, I'd be waiting for them. Of course, the AI then decided not to pull of it's sneaky tactic. I reloaded it a couple of times just to see if it would fall for my ambush, but of course it didn't. Hmm. Anyway, the Sam site was secure in the end, and poor old Elliot got another smack in the face for his troubles. Poor sod!

Husar

08-10-2006, 10:26

Hmm, I tried the stealth approach myself and have to say it works only with quicksave and quickload. If your soldier has the stealth skill and the right attributes, he can successfully sneak up from behind, whether the enemy turns depends on whether you make a sound or not(which again depends on skill) and the soldier´s somewhat random movement. It´s especially funny with a good throwing ability(throwing knives into the back) and/or martial arts skill(punch him to death with nice animations). I once specialized on that and it worked very well. If you take a silenced automatic gun you need to quickload less often because should the victim turn around, blow him away. But throwing and punching give dexterity and strength. Fight at night only with that tactic, with UV goggles you can evade enemies more successfully later on(if you have a nightfighter ability as well, you can see them even earlier).

Doing this can feel like a different game because you have to get the enemy alone, have to evade being spotted and have to kill in one turn so he cannot call reinforcements or shoot so everybody comes running towards you, but it does definitely work and can be lots of fun.

One thing though I´m not sure about, once you come to Deidranna´s palace the enemies are really good, deadly and well equipped, i have no idea whether it still works towards the end, I usually stopped playing before that.

And concerning the super abilities of enemies, who gets the first turn is decided by the situation and the individual soldiers´ Level. If the guy behind the door has a level higher than that of your mercenary and you come around the corner he is watching, he´ll most likely get the turn. If your mercenary has a higher level compared to the hiding guy, you are more likely to get the turn, so in such a situation you should try using your merc with the highest level to get the first turn.

professorspatula

08-10-2006, 12:21

Interesting about the level thing and sequence, I'll have to consider that.

But regarding stealth, I still tend to find my chap wearing UV Googles will spot the enemy first, and the enemy will have his back to him. But as I'm not close enough to get the enemy without making a mess of things, I hit next turn. And lo and behold, Johnny Bad-Guy turns around and starts shooting at me. It just seems once combat mode is initiated the AI knows you're there. Or maybe I've just been unlucky. I also gave up on knives when Dimitri, the 'expert' knife thrower does a mean average of about 7 damage to the back of the enemy's head.

Night ops are also becoming a chore now that they're throwing chemical break lights at my troops all the time also. And can someone please reassure me (without giving too much away) that in the late game, the enemy isn't launching 100 rockets and missiles and what not at you. That is the typical thing that happens in these kind of games, and the type of thing that makes the games crap. I remember in the X-com games (Apocalypse especially), the missiles got so infuriating towards the end, I'd just charge a suicide squad of walking bombs into the heart of the enemy and hope to blow as many of them up as I could before my veterans arrive on the scene.

econ21

08-10-2006, 14:58

Like Husar, I tend to stop before I get to Meduna, where there are many hidden elite enemies with rocket rifles and tanks etc that are very punishing. Up until then, it is ok. Mortars appear when you reach Grumm and zero in on you unerringly. This means that camping is fatal - shoot and scoot becomes the strategy of choice - but they are not too bad.

AI use of breaklights is one of the improvements of 1.12, I believe. Before that night fighting was something of a turkey shoot. AFAIK, the AI does not cheat and know where you are. It tends to run to the sound of the guns but then looks around for you. When you have a night vision edge, they are deadmeat. Of course, you can use breaklights too.

Bob the Insane

08-10-2006, 15:12

Sneaking... I have not been able to sneak right up behine someone, but as my troops have gotten better I have been able to spot an enemy in sneak mode and crawling (the game drops into combat mode) but if I do not approach too close the enemy does not automatically notice my man who is keeping an eye on him. I will then spend a few turns sneaking my other troops into good cover position before opening up. The enemy just run through a set patrol route if they don;t notice you it seems. Tried getting close enough to through a surpize knife throw but it never seems to kill the guy so I find it better to get into cover position and open up big style with grenades and heavy gunfire...

Buildings... I have not had too many issues with the SAM sites but Grumm and it's factory buildings gave me a nightmare. One map had an elite and a bunch of guys inside a factory build waiting. PLus an elite outside with a Mortar which was a proetty nasty shock... I retried this battle loads of times but I just could not get in without lossing a lot of guys and I was a little short on grenades. I did it in the end by setting my guys up ready to rock and roll outside an end wall and set a couple explosive charges outside and blew our a large section of the end wall. Loads of autofire later and the odds where back on my side again... I keep reusing the tactic now for "campers"... Though the residents may not be overly impressed by us blowing chunks out of thier homes and workplaces... :laugh4:

Husar

08-10-2006, 17:40

I found that before throwing a knife one should always quicksave.
Some soldiers are dead with one knife in their neck while others die only with a knife in their back and depending on your skill you might need to get closer. Also keep in mind they do not kill directly if the enemy is alarmed.

If your mercenary was really quiet and the enemy turns around that is because he just wants to turn around, it´s more or less random. As I said, use quicksave. It may sound bad to make that much use of quicksave, but the random element usually requires this and I still enjoyed my night ops.:2thumbsup:

econ21

08-10-2006, 17:46

I tried to avoid quicksaving in battle, but the autosave feature can be a life-saver. IIRC, you have to create a file (could be empty) called "autosave.pls" or something in your JA2 directory. Then if you go to the load save screen, pressing ALT+A gives you the autosave for the previous turn and ALT+B gives you that of the last but one turn. That can save a lot of frustration.

professorspatula

08-17-2006, 16:48

Do you know what the 'Anywhere Save' means? I got that once instead of Quicksave when I tried to reload a save game. It only appeared once though.

Anyway, an update. I managed to get to grips with stealth stuff when I hired Shadow. He'd sneak around the enemy positions whilst my team where pinned down and hit them from behind! Feeling I'd got to grips with the game and stealth stuff a bit more, and seeing as I was on novice level and only had the capital to secure, I thought I'd start over on Experienced level so I didn't ruin the surprises at the end of the game.

I chose to play solo, however. I created a stealthy/night ops merc and had them take on the enemy alone. With a mechanic for after ops repairs and lock picking/trap disabling. Wolf was the ideal choice for his med skills as well, plus he was my hero in the previous game. I also hired a couple of those awful MERC people and Ira to train militia, although for the most part I think I didn't need them, but it lets my main merc focus on his task at hand I suppose. At times it's been the most fun I've had in a game for a very long time when my stealthy assassin wipes out sector after sector of enemies whilst barely getting a scratch. His psycho personality and penchant for burst fire makes things tricky at times, but I find I need to use burst fire 95% of the time just to finish the enemies off now anyway.

I've noticed a few minor stealth oddities though. I can sneak up to behind someone without them being aware if there's an object between us so they can't see me until I'm right behind them. But in the open, as mentioned before, it's seemingly impossible to give chase in stealth mode as they instinctively turn round. I don't think it's random either, or they're following a patrol - they heard/saw me. Really I'd like the option to keep the game in real time mode whilst in stealth mode until the enemy spots me or I decide to enter combat, ala Fallout. Also, my merc has eyes in the back of his head. Often he spots the enemy from far away whilst facing the opposite direction! Is this what the AI can do too? Another annoying thing is how alarms/gas explosion-type-things go randomly off whilst in stealth mode and I've not been spotted for the entire battle. But no big deal I guess.

So anyway, I'm really enjoying JA2. I've developed an internet shopping addiction though and can't stop myself buying stuff from Bobby Ray's store! I don't even need half the ammo -- although my stealth character chews through about 120 rounds of .45 ammo per sector. But 1000 rounds of 7.62mm Nato rounds is a bit overkill methinks, and then there's the 100 or so guns I'm hording.

I think if I ever get through this semi-solo campaign, I'll try the 1.13 patch and some of the things in it. What's really good is how they've made it so you only use the parts and additions you want, as some of their additions I'm a bit unsure of.

Husar

08-17-2006, 18:40

Hmm, have you already sent Deidranna some flowers?
That your mercs can see enemies behind them never bothered me, I just think that they heard a sound and turned their head around.
If by the gas-explosion thing you mean the gas explosion in Alma, this one is triggered.
I always hire Lt. Konrad Gillet there, IMO he's the funniest character in the game.
If you can read German, you might also want to have a look at this fanpage (http://jagged.gamigo.de/). Lots of info to be found there.:2thumbsup:

Ciaran

08-20-2006, 11:27

So anyway, I'm really enjoying JA2. I've developed an internet shopping addiction though and can't stop myself buying stuff from Bobby Ray's store! I don't even need half the ammo -- although my stealth character chews through about 120 rounds of .45 ammo per sector. But 1000 rounds of 7.62mm Nato rounds is a bit overkill methinks, and then there's the 100 or so guns I'm hording.

I think if I ever get through this semi-solo campaign, I'll try the 1.13 patch and some of the things in it. What's really good is how they've made it so you only use the parts and additions you want, as some of their additions I'm a bit unsure of.

Have you found Tony? He could help you with your excess guns.

Patch 1.13? Oh my, I´m really not up to date of JA2 development anymore. And I´ve started my forum career at the one husar mentioned, though you´ll find nothing active of me there for about one and a half years :shame: .

professorspatula

08-20-2006, 16:47

Yea I found Tony, but I can't be bothered to sell much stuff to him, it's too much bother unequipping my pack mules, loading them with guns, and shipping them off to Tony's for a few bucks before returning back to base to get equipped again, plus I'm drowning in bucks anyway.

The 1.13 patch does a hell of a lot of stuff, but it's not official. See here: http://ja2v113.schtuff.com/features

It's incredible how much people have been able to mod the game. From upping screen resolution, to changing the AI, and altering all kinds of stats and things. I see one screenshot from the mod where Drassen is invaded by 130+ Elite soldiers !! That's a hell of a battle! I think I'll give it a go after I finish my current game.

Nikpalj

08-21-2006, 10:51

Hey guys,

I've started playing patch 1.13 on Experienced, but I've modified many settings in the .ini, tweaking the game to resemble more the Insane diff lev, but without hordes of enemies...

I, for one, want my JA2 experience to be as close as possible to realistic, modern day squad lev (gun)fighting.

The immediate complaint that I've had when I first played JA2 in 1998. was that the sighting range (at which bandits become visible) in the game is absurdly short - I've been in the army myself and I can tell you that 300 meters of range is LONG - it would take you a few minutes to walk this length of space.

At 200m you can see the targets as small specks in the distance, but you can SEE them, always and at every weather condition if your LoS is unobstructed... unless you're wearing a rag over your face or have a duct tape over your eyes!

So wtf is all this "out of range" and invisible enemies nonsense in JA2? I know that the lengths have been scaled down, one tile representing 10m - but I'm not playing Panzer General here (what's next, 5 mercs occupying a same tile?), if I can see a target half a mile away in the real world, then I want every single character in the game to be able to see theirs in the same way!

The second complaint is that the weapon damage seemed waay too low to what we've seen those babies can do here in Croatia during our independence war...

A bullet or two from an AK usualy killes (or leaves you with broken ribs or squashed lungs if you're wearing that oh so precious body armour - virtually incapacitated for the rest of the battle or worse), HMG's tend to ripp a man's torso in half and people don't usually jump right up after a handgrenade explodes at their feet...

So... where's all this fun stuff in JA2???

Because the facts stated above, what I wanted to reccomend you try out ('cause I've found it had enriched my game in a wonderful way) is this:

Try increasing the BASE_SIGHT_RANGE value (located at the lower part of JA2_Options.ini) to 19 and the GUN_DAMAGE_MULTIPLIER value to 25 and explosives to 150 if you're man enough).

I have found these settings to be much more realistic and enjoyable then the original ones (not too soft like before but not too hard to be unrealistic) - it almost feels like it's a new game altogether, 'cause bullets tend to really hurt now, and you can see the enemies at ranges that you would expect them to be visible at in the real world...

You have to play much more carefully then before but all of this boosts immersion to a new level!

Unless you're one of the Elite who're playing this on Insane, of course, heriocally wiping out waves of hamster-like enemies using mortars and burst fire, all the while expertly hiding out of their range...

Try this! :)

Ciaran

08-21-2006, 11:15

Whoa, that sound a lot like all manners of stuff I´ve wished (especially standing ready, it was possible in JA1, commanding militia or goggle-switching) for in my JA2 time. I just wonder, does that patch work on a JA2 version other than Gold? I´ve still got the old (pre-Gold) one. I´ll ocassionally have to come back to JA2, it´s decidedly the best squad-based game around. Aged Graphics? Maybe, but the Gameplay hasn´t been achieved by anything else I know of in the genre.

Crandaeolon

08-21-2006, 14:12

So wtf is all this "out of range" and invisible enemies nonsense in JA2?

It's for reasons of convenience and practicality. Compressing distances is pretty much always done in non-FPS games, it keeps the battle more compact. There's less need for scrolling around, the maps can be smaller, fights take less time and so on while tactical maneuvers are still possible.

The second complaint is that the weapon damage seemed waay too low

Another game design 101 point. JA2 is a game where small squads of player characters (PCs) take on much larger numbers of non-player character (NPCs). The PCs should win most of these encounters and also stay alive to allow character development, but the game must also deliver a plausible challenge and an illusion of "equal footing" - to make weapon effects, wounds etc. appear similar on both PCs and NPCs. JA2 already stretches this illusion a lot - the PCs generally have much higher stats and hitpoints than the enemies.

Upping weapon damage would favor the NPCs (thus increasing difficulty) and result in more PC deaths. To have roughly the same balance, NPC accuracy and other stats would have to be lowered, or NPC numbers thinned. (Actually, NPC numbers don't matter all that much in JA since they rarely come all at once.)

The weapons can be tweaked to be a bit more damaging without problems, but going for one-hit-kills results in all kinds of tricky balancing issues.

For a realistic squad based game, try Op:Flashpoint. Games like JA2, Silent Storm, Fallout Tactics and other isometric games tend to take some liberties with reality for the sake of game balance.

Husar

08-21-2006, 14:21

Nikpalj, have you played ALFA Anti Terror?
I think that was it, in that game you plan your movements and thenklick go and your soldiers and the enemy will fight in real time for 30 seconds, then you can plan again and so on. I tried the demo and soldiers can really spot enemies and engage over the whole map, though even with cover my soldiers tended to get shot from everywhere so I quit and never touched it again...

Maybe you would like it. ~;)

econ21

08-21-2006, 14:37

I agree with Crandeleon on the gameplay vs realism question. I like the limited range and damage.

But I never noticed JA2 giving the PCs so much of an edge. Try getting your starter squad into a battle with a 12 strong patrol in the daylight. It's painful. The AI numbers do matter. It also seems to fight reasonably intelligently (maybe it is better at identifying cover); at least, I don't feel I have much of an edge (just surprise). And above all, in JA2 the rifle is king.

Maybe I am no good at playing, but those encounters typically mean I lose (reload time) or my mercs are out for days because they are so wounded.

JA2 gets much easier when you stick to the cities, have a night vision edge and have rifles.

professorspatula

08-21-2006, 20:46

Yea, daytime battles are a nightmare, especially if you're outgunned. Though I managed to have my special solo night op chap out-fox and kill 2 10-12 men patrols during daylight whilst performing a rescue mission for Flo who's Hummer had been more or less surrounded by foes.

Aside from quite using a fair few reloads, the biggest mistake the enemy made was to use teargas grenades against my lone gunman. Whilst my silenced Mac10 made little impact on large numbers of the AI, the teargas provided a cover for my gasmask wearing merc, and a great opportunity to kill the enemy at pointblank range as they ran blind into the smoke and into the path of my level 8 expert gunman. And then as the Mac10's reliability became an issue, and not least the lack of ammo, I pulled out my C7 and used burst fire on the last of the enemies. Damn, how awesome is that gun on burst mode! I felt like Chuck Norris as I gunned the enemy down 1 burst at at time.

After that, whenever I go on night ops, I take the C7 as backup to finish the job the Mac 10 takes too long to do. At one stage I had an enemy charge towards my merc every turn, and 1 swift burst killed each one. Six or seven enemies laid out dead in front of my lone merc - Awesome stuff!

Regarding the issue of sight and weapon damage, I too take the side of gameplay. I don't want to have to worry about being completely in cover from 3 screens away as unlike real life, I don't have a good field of vision to let me know whether or not those trees from 10 feet away are really blocking the view from the window where the enemy might be. I already think the isometric view gives some odd shooting opportunities - like being shot from the roof whilst laying prone and several feet from the edge and by a gunman 5 foot from the wall etc. Already the AI has an advantage at times - especially when it comes to throwing grenades and breaklights - it always throws right at you, even when you're under the cover of darkness. Damage wise, I suppose upping damage a bit is ok, but it depends on how you want to play the game. If you want to go sneaking around, you probably want more damage so you don't need 10 bullets to kill one foe. But if you're gung-ho and there's 10 of you with rifles, dropping the enemy in one or two shots can make things easier for the player - unless of course there's dozens of enemies around!

The great thing with all these mods, is you can in some ways play the game the way you want to play it. If only the TW games were so customisable. Perhaps one day CA will release the source code for STW/MTW (RTW might be a bit optimistic) and then we'll see what can really be done with the game.