To which group do you belong?

[Duke John]

I continue to be surprised about how some posters talk so easily about the deaths of civilians caused by conflicts by the Middle-East. So here is a little poll that at least indicates slightly how the big the average monkey sphere is of the Org population.

To which group do you belong? Do you see yourself as part of the entire human race and do you consequently care or at least respect the lives of everyone no matter where they live? Or is all well as long as your family prospers? Do you find it accepteable that the wealth of some countries are exported to the greater good of your own country?

Edit: the poll is a bit flawed. The discussion will be more interesting than the outcome of the poll.

Edit2: My own view on this:

Sometimes I am alone when I see so many people around me that do not respect or take others into consideration.

While I of course care for my family, I do not disregard others so that my family can have a good time or prosper.

I am not proud of my hometown like some Rotterdammers or Amsterdammers can be. Some of them are a member of their city to the back-bone.

The only times when I feel part of my province is when Dutchmen of other regions (the dirty westerners) talk about the prejudices on their southern countrymen. But this is not something I actively think of.

I do not see myself a member of a particular group. I may have different ideologies than other people but I do not consider myself different because of it.

I am not a nationalist. I am not as blindly devoted as some Americans can, waving the national flag and saying "God bless America". I live in the Netherlands because I am born here. But I am also keeping options to emigrate. While I can be proud about the Netherlands I can equally be dissappointed.

So above all I am a member of the human race. I love this planet that is inhabited by so many different cultures and humans and decorated by nature and weather that keeps my fascinated. In the end when we are all dead it is the legacy that counts that we leave behind for future generations. I do my best so that I can say to my possible future grandchildren "I tried not to screw up the world for you."
When I watch TV or walk over the street I occasionally find myself watching someone, an elderly man sitting in a park, an Indian selling spices or a Lebanese watching his ruined home. And I think: "That is a life." It is that thought that makes me take the whole world into consideration when choosing how I should live and what choices I make.

[Don Corleone]

I'm not certain how to answer this, and you forgot to include the poll.

[Duke John]

First poll I made with this system. Apparently the thread is already posted while I was still making the poll options...

[Fragony]

3 and a little bit of 2.

[Somebody Else]

I suspect the question is, possibly, which one of these describes the group to which the member primarily associates itself.

eg. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom, I also happen to be a leprechaun. But my citizenship in the UK is more important to me than my leprechaunness.

I could be wrong, who am I to say what somebody else is trying to say?

[Don Corleone]

1, 3, 5 & 7. I've said it before and I'll say it again for the zillionth time, there is no such thing as a 'white' race.

[Duke John]

My question was indeed a bit unclear. Edited the first post.

The reason for posting this poll is because I am reading alot of posts where people are extremely passionate about how abortion is killing life, where people condemn a doctor who "helped" an elderly person with dying, etc. And at the same time I see posts where people try to justify dropping nukes on countries or how the deaths civilians caused by military actions are unfortunate but necessary.

The question is more about how large your group is for which you care about wether a member dies or lives... hmmm, with that in mind, the poll is probably flawed... :juggle2:

[Somebody Else]

1. I can't get away from that one really...
2. Well, I'm a hybrid... or half-caste, whatever. But 'race' is such an silly word - we're all capable of inter-breeding (myself a case in point), so we're all the same species, nay?
3. Yep. Says so on my passport.
4. and 5. Non-legal terms, and besides - getting overly attached to any one place is foolish, in my opinion.
6. Group's a pretty loose term... I could be in the group labelled 'men over 6 feet tall'
7. Socially unacceptable to say otherwise, besides, they're nice people.
8. Aren't we all?
9. Always, every day. Twice on Sundays.

[Fragony]

1, 3, 5 & 7. I've said it before and I'll say it again for the zillionth time, there is no such thing as a 'white' race.

Of course there is, just as there is a black race and an asian race and countless others. You can call it caucasian but it means the same.

[Duke John]

Of course, Somebody Else :tongue2:
To further explain: if you see yourself as a citizin of a country, you are nationalistic and whatever is good for your country is justified. Even if that means bombing civilians (Israel vs Lebanon). Or accepting low living standards of people in other countries so that you can buy your clothes cheaply.
Being a member of the human race shows when you start to care for events that have no influence on your own wellbeing: the tsunami raised billions of dollars, that was a sign of people are in the end all members of the human race.
You are part of a group if you use fellow countrymen as shields (terrorists). A group can be this generation; i.e. you do not care that your children or their children cannot have the same living standard as this generation is using up all the resources and continues pollutes.
You are part of a sub human race when you hate Mexican illegals, but not Canadian ones.
You are a member of your family if you care not for politics or whatever moves the world and do whatever you like (antisocials parasiting on the state and bringing down the neighbourhood).

There are just examples. I do not mean anything with them. If you vote for family you are not immediately an anti-social. Not all Americans are racists, etc.

[Don Corleone]

My question was indeed a bit unclear. Edited the first post.

The reason for posting this poll is because I am reading alot of posts where people are extremely passionate about how abortion is killing life, where people condemn a doctor who "helped" an elderly person with dying, etc. And at the same time I see posts where people try to justify dropping nukes on countries or how the deaths civilians caused by military actions are unfortunate but necessary.

The question is more about how large your group is for which you care about wether a member dies or lives... hmmm, with that in mind, the poll is probably flawed... :juggle2:

Aaah, now I understand. You want to know how consistent folks on the pro-life side actually are and are going to use the results of this poll to string them up.

The abortion/death-penalty dichotomoy gives you a little more leeway. The whole question of civilians... While I'll grant Israel has gone beyond reasonable boundaries recently, let me ask you this... it was impossible to defeat Nazi Germany without some civilian casualties. Does that mean we should have just allowed Hitler to do as he pleased?

And Frag, no, there's no such thing as a white race. It's a relatively modern concept that holds little value or merit to anthropologists. It's almost impossible to scientifically classify what a 'white' or 'caucasian' person is. The genetic markers within that group are as varied, if not more, then they are with people outside that group.

Example, are the Finno-Hungarians white? They sure look that way, but when you map their genetic tags, they are more central Asian then any other European group. Are Italians white? They have a lot of North African contribution in them. Ditto for Spaniards. There's been several studies lately that show pretty conclusively that the Celts weren't Indo-European, they were full scale Indian. When it comes to skin color, it's an accident of nature how similar so many disparate groups appear. You could talk about a Teutonic race, a Celtic race etc., but even then you're on shaky ground. And grouping it all by skin color... well, as I said, it just doesn't hold up.

[Don Corleone]

Of course, Somebody Else :tongue2:
You are part of a sub human race when you hate Mexican illegals, but not Canadian ones.
You are a member of your family if you care not for politics or whatever moves the world and do whatever you like (antisocials parasiting on the state and bringing down the neighbourhood).

I really don't appreciate the connotations you're attaching to your poll responses. I don't think most Americans 'hate' Mexican illegals, it's more a matter of people hate what is happening to our social service structure, labor market and our taxes because that particular group is coming in such large numbers. Before you brand every last American that doesn't support a wide-open border with Mexico a racist, perhaps you should do a little more research into the issue and ask yourself why a nation of immigrants is saying "slow down".

[Duke John]

No no, considering that most of topics are centered on American topics, probably caused by the high proportion of American Org members or the boring European politics, I supplied some examples centered on American issues to explain the options, not too condemn or accuse anyone.


You want to know how consistent folks on the pro-life side actually are and are going to use the results of this poll to string them up.
No, I want to know how much people care. I see people driving around in SUVs to protect their children in case of an accident, accepting that it would mean the death of passengers driving in the Fiat Panda. How some can so carelessly throw away their garbage on the streets. How people can, as you point out, condemn abortion but advocate the death penalty. How people complain about increased pricing, while buying a $60 pants that earned a woman on the other side of the world $1.

Edit: but what mostly triggered me is how some people seem to see some other people little more as beasts that can be killed if need be. How if you truly care about life, can justify the death of children, denying them of their chance to fall in love, get a job, hang out with their friends, etc. What will those people tell to their children (if they have them) when explaining why the deaths of some children were necessary.

[Don Corleone]

Well, believe it or not, it was actually this line of thinking that got me to reverse my position on the death penalty a few years back.

As for why people aren't more careful with their trash, I'd say laziness. You can blame Western excess all you want, having been in China, Japan and even Singapore (where they'll cane you if they catch you littering), people just don't think about the bigger picture of how their waste impacts others.

The SUV issue... I agree with you whole-heartedly on this one. It's usually the Explorer-driving soccer Moms that "have to protect their children at all costs" that drive the worst (because they're on the cell phone). We have traffic laws in place about right of way, lane changing without directionals, etc. Why the police don't enforce these rules, I dunno.

As for the pricing of the clothing goes, if you're willing to pay $120 for a pair of pants so that the lady gets a raise to $2, be my guest. But people will always view an issue first and foremost as it impacts them. Whether the woman is making $30 or $1, $60 is a lot of money to spend on pants for most people. You might as well ask why prices haven't gone done with all of the outsourcing of labor. Say what you want about Wal-mart, at least they pass the savings along to their customers. Those nifty botiques in SoHo or Paris get their clothes made in sweatshops too, they just choose to keep the savings for themselves.

[Geoffrey S]

I went for family, though I might add only direct family (parents and sister). I certainly don't consider myself distinctly of a certain nationality, and while there is a large group of people I'd consider friends they're not linked to a certain area or even country, and many of them I see infrequently. Hence, I consider myself most of all a member of my family above all other things.

Though if I understand the meaning of your poll correctly, this in no way means I don't care for people outside said group. However I do view it in a way that the first priority lies in protecting and helping those directly around me before I could help others in a meaningful way.

[Ice]

I'm the first 7...

[ShadesWolf]

I am a subject of the Queen
I am English.

That is about as far as I go.

I believe in my country, not in the UK. I dislike Europe so I am not pro- the region.

Yes I am a member of the human race. But I feel as a race we are not doing good things on the whole, so I would not have this as my selection.

I am a member of the White race. - But this does not describe who I am, only my skin colour.

I am a citizin of a town/city, so what. Next week I might move, who cares about cities.

I am a member of a group - no not me

I am a member of my family - but my family is larger than myself, wife daughter and my parents. Therefore I would not use this to describe me

I am alone - only on the way to and from work and getting the newspapers. So this is not me

I look forward to reading others people comments......

[R'as al Ghul]

1. I can't get away from that one really...
2. Well, I'm a hybrid... or half-caste, whatever. But 'race' is such an silly word - we're all capable of inter-breeding (myself a case in point), so we're all the same species, nay?
3. Yep. Says so on my passport.
4. and 5. Non-legal terms, and besides - getting overly attached to any one place is foolish, in my opinion.
6. Group's a pretty loose term... I could be in the group labelled 'men over 6 feet tall'
7. Socially unacceptable to say otherwise, besides, they're nice people.
8. Aren't we all?
9. Always, every day. Twice on Sundays.

I second that. Also I'm the first GAH! voter. :laugh4:

Well I'm not sure but I may regret voting at all, because generally I hate categories. As to some points that were mentioned here,
I do care for my family and I could imagine defending them with my life, although the possibility seems fortunately very unlikely.
I would under no occasion give my life for my country, city or region and I wouldn't expect anyone to do so. I've done civil service instead of going to the army.
The idea of race is certainly one of the most stupid and deadly ideas that the human species has yet produced. I think even Fragony knows that but he likes to provoke. Reminds me of the ironical essay Umberto eco wrote about some Italian politicians who made racist comments. He basically told him the history of his province by enumerating the numerous influences from invasions and wars. Turned out the racist was a mongrel himself.
I only wish that humanity continues to admix(?). It not only produces more beautiful children, it will also eliminate the possibilty to say someone is black or white. Instead we'll only say that he is.
The disrespect for human life in the current middle east conflict has again reached another quality. To enumerate the different ways of dehumanization we have seen in the last years in this region would be a sisyphus task. :no:
But given the interest of third parties in the region I'm afraid it will remain like it is for the next decades if they don't nuke themselves to death in the meantime.

R'as

[Duke Malcolm]

1. Yes, I am indeed human.
2. While the matter of race is iffy, perhaps there are many white races. I would consider myself Anglo-Saxo-Celtic or some such thing.
3. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom and a British subject.
4. I am a comrade of the People's Republic of Scotland.
5. I am a citizen of the Glorious City of Dundee and the West End thereof.
6. I am a School Pupil.
7. I am a member of my family.
8. I am.

[AntiochusIII]

Ah...Duke John. I see your intent: quite an interesting poll.

I've always considered myself first and foremost in my interests. No need to lie about that. Sure, it is possible that people might consider an external entity, or another person, more important than themselves, but at least half of those who say so are liars, known in many names (chickenhawk is one of those names, if you need an example). Perhaps some of those who cry patriotism are indeed willing to die for their country, perhaps many family members are willing to die for each other (parents, I assume, are more capable of this), etc.

But not me. I'm too young and too attached to life to assume otherwise. So the most important vote goes to "I am alone," a representation of this choice, I presume.

Now that the personal aspect is explained, the political, cultural, and social consideration--the point of this poll: how much is the worth of which life?--I choose the human race. Some probably notice that I don't consider an American more worth than an Iraqi--which some around here actually do--or an Israeli more a Lebanese, which is the main topic around here. I don't consider any city, or region, or sub-groups, or vague definitions of race, to be more important than the consideration of humanity as a concept, and as a whole. Choice 1. No patriotism, no sectarianism, no religiousness, no particular group loyalty for me then.

Thus, I'm not one of the "interesting" recipients of the poll. Not a generic pro-lifer, Israel-lover, neocon, etc. I believe myself pretty consistent, if weak-minded from others' point of view.

By the way, Duke John, I think one important choice you missed is "I am a member of my ideology" or something along those lines. The "group" choice is too vague to substitute for this, the choice of Revolutionaries.

[Zalmoxis]

Well, I am a member of my family and my religion. Just about every country is corrupt though I still identify myself with the only culture and nationality that I feel comfortable with (romanian) than just call myself white. In my experience the whole region thing leads to stereotyping, and besides that you can move to anywhere on this planet. Am I alone, I don't know. As a side note, Duke John gets zero points for refusing to use the spell check for the word "citizen" ~:)

[Tachikaze]

I am first, and foremost, an organism. I say this because I respect all life, not only humans, as being related to me.

I am equally bound to all humans before I get to know them. Once I know something about them, my feelings for them are based on their personal character.

Race is an illusion.

I ignore my nationality as much as possible. I use it in my debates in the Backroom to be honest about my biases and point-of-view. If I hear that a plane has crashed in another country, I don't care how many US citizens were on it. All of the people on the plane are of equal value to me.

My region (Southern California) was important in my development, but I don't really identify with most other people from this region.

I would like to feel some kind of connection to my city. After all, I believe the city-state to be the best political entity. But San Diego is not really the kind of city I can believe in, except for the remarkable climate and topographical variety. Oh, and the taco shops.

I identify with groups of special people that I choose to spend time with. They make me feel good to be around.

My family, especially my nuclear family, is excellent. I am proud to be a member. I also greatly appreciate my wife and her wonderful family.

Ultimately, though, I walk (sometimes drive) the earth as an individual. My beliefs, values, and actions are mine alone, and I can't expect anyone to share them.

I never answer "GAH!"

[Duke John]

I shall explain how I look at the groups to perhaps avoid the "I fit in every group" replies.

Sometimes I am alone when I see so many people around me that do not respect or take others into consideration.

While I of course care for my family, I do not disregard others so that my family can have a good time or prosper.

I am not proud of my hometown like some Rotterdammers or Amsterdammers can be. Some of them are a member of their city to the back-bone.

The only times when I feel part of my province is when Dutchmen of other regions (the dirty westerners) talk about the prejudices on their southern countrymen. But this is not something I actively think of.

I do not see myself a member of a particular group. I may have different ideologies than other people but I do not consider myself different because of it.

I am not a nationalist. I am not as blindly devoted as some Americans can, waving the national flag and saying "God bless America". I live in the Netherlands because I am born here. But I am also keeping options to emigrate. While I can be proud about the Netherlands I can equally be dissappointed.

So above all I am a member of the human race. I love this planet that is inhabited by so many different cultures and humans and decorated by nature and weather that keeps my fascinated. In the end when we are all dead it is the legacy that counts that we leave behind for future generations. I do my best so that I can say to my possible future grandchildren "I tried not to screw up the world for you."
When I watch TV or walk over the street I occasionally find myself watching someone, an elderly man sitting in a park, an Indian selling spices or a Lebanese watching his ruined home. And I think: "That is a life." It is that thought that makes me take the whole world into consideration when choosing how I should live and what choices I make.

[Spetulhu]

I just had to say Gah!

You see, i usually don't care very much if some people on the other side of the globe (or the other side of town) get killed.
1) I didn't know them.
2) There's plenty enough humans so why should I be sorry to see a few of them go?
3) Number 2) pretty much holds up for my take on abortion too. Besides, if it can't survive outside mom it's not a person yet.

Despite that I find it unacceptable when some nutjob poster on a BBS wants to glass whole countries just because he thinks it's easier than dealing with the people in any other way. That's hate talking, dreaming about how the righteous will cleanse the world of subhuman scum. I don't see how anyone can take the right to decide who gets to live if it's not necessary to kill or let someone die (triage doctors have to, for example).

[Red Peasant]

Strange question. Everybody 'belongs' to the groups that you have listed, except of course for 'I am alone', which is not a group, and 'Gah' which is just, well, Gah!

The groupings which are most important to me are:
my wonderful family;
my city;
my Englishness, although I also feel an affinity with my Celtic roots which are mostly Irish with some Scottish, so I feel rooted in these islands;

Colour of skin means nothing to me.
Creed also means nothing, yet I am aware that I am conditioned by the Judaeo-Christian tradition, for good and bad.

As for the 'human race', that is too nebulous and complex an entity for me to comprehend. On a personal level I believe myself to be a humane person, but I may not seem humane to those who attack the things and values that I hold dear.

If only Vergil was right,

'Omnia vincit Amor et nos cedamus Amori'

[GoreBag]

I'm drunk on my individuality.

[John86]

"Experience teaches us that the average man who protests that his international feeling swamps his national feeling, that he does not care for his country because he cares so much for mankind, in actual practice proves himself the foe of mankind; that the man who says that he does not care to be a citizen of any one country, because he is the citizen of the world, is in fact usually and exceedingly undesirable citizen of whatever corner of the world he happens at the moment to be in."
-Theodore Roosevelt, Man in the Arena.

I belong to my country.

[Shaun]

Bah, where is the evil liberal atheist homosexual baby eating terrorist left-winger option? As thats what I am.

Voted member of the human race.

[IrishArmenian]

Human, Armenian, Vartanian (family member) and soldier (group).

[Strike For The South]

I am A TEXAN and I would lay my life down for my family many who are yankees oddly enough

[Red Peasant]

I am A TEXAN and I would lay my life down for my family many who are yankees oddly enough

You are a Yank. ~;)

[caravel]

I voted Gah! due to the lack of the "I am a mammal" option.