Augustinian Reforms

[Markus_Aurelius]

I am just wondering if there truly is an Augustinian reform in this build of europa barbarorum, i read the faq and could not find the answer so i will make a post about it. In the faction section of this website it show the romans are split into 4 eras. But going through the EXPORT_DSCR_BILDINGS i did not find any clues of a reform pas the marian one

[The Spartan (Returns)]

you were probably reading the Praetorians thread. no there isnt one unfortunatly. if EB did have one it be fantastic. we can have lorica segmentata armor after the augustian reforms.


btw and then we should have Praetorians.

[Markus_Aurelius]

why is there a cohort Imperia unit in this game if there is no augustinian reform

[The Spartan (Returns)]

well... they didnt work one out yet. maybe on EB0.8

[cunctator]

Augustan reform is planned since long time, but script wasn't ready for 0.74. It will be fully implemented in 0.8.

[Markus_Aurelius]

ok thanks for the clear up

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

you were probably reading the Praetorians thread. no there isnt one unfortunatly. if EB did have one it be fantastic. we can have lorica segmentata armor after the augustian reforms.


btw and then we should have Praetorians.

There will be no Lorica Segmentata, front line legionaries did not wear Lorica Segmentata. Sorica Segmentata is the worst armour Rome ever produced for use in combat.

It is noisy, cumbersome, takes over a minute to put, you can't ride a horse in it, its uncomfortable, difficult to repair, unreliable, prone to unpredictable brakages, and you can't carry a Scutum on your back and wear it; to list just its major faults.

Lorica Segmentata is light armour which protects againt blunt trauma, it was probably used by artillery crews, as it protects the area a broken ballista arm is likely to hit. It may also have been used by some "Light" assault troops, perhaps the Second Cohort.

But those are not the reasons it will not be in EB, it will not be in EB because it was not invented yet.

If one more perosn mentions the segmentata, I swear....:wall:

[Comrade Alexeo]

Wigwerth, please forgive, but I must disagree:

I have tried on Lorica Segmentata as a reenactor, and while it IS difficult to put on, Rome preferred to fight pitched battles anyway... and in any case mail is no piece of cake either.

Its remarkably lightweight, and quite comfortable as armor goes. Mail, which I've also worn, is by contrast much heavier and more awkward. I found segmentata to be pretty unobstrusive - and you have to keep in mind that the Roman soldier was not expected to be particularly agile in combat. Walk/jog into position (which is easier with segmentata because mail has a tendency to bounce around), lock formation, hold shields out, block incoming blow with shield, shield-punch, sword stab, lather rinse repeat. While on a strategic and grand-tactical level Roman armies were flexible, on a tactical level their troops were not meant to be as such.

Segmentata's segmented form allows it to absorb blows better than a comparable amount of mail, and does so not only weighing less, but also costing less as well. Probably its biggest fault is its dependence on leather straps to various bits together, but with good leather (unlike a lot of cheap stuff you find in some bad segmentata's today), that's not particularly likely, and the straps are easily replaced after the battle.

I should like to see EB extend until the British and Dacian conquests - till about 105 AD. I think it would be a particularly cool touch if, ONLY in the Dacian provinces, the Roman's could recruit "heavy" legionaries; that is to say, soldiers wearing the manica armguard on their right arm http://www.geocities.com/tuccius2112/lorica.jpg (far right here), which was adopted because of Roman encounter's with the falx.

[-Praetor-]

Lorica Segmentata is the worst armour Rome ever produced for use in combat.

It is noisy, cumbersome, takes over a minute to put, you can't ride a horse in it, its uncomfortable, difficult to repair, unreliable, prone to unpredictable brakages, and you can't carry a Scutum on your back and wear it; to list just its major faults.


Crap, I didn`t know that. Hell, when you see it, one thinks "Wow, that think sure looks safe, you could be hit by an avalanch and get out of it walking with that thing on". I would have never thought that way about that armor. It was a beautiful mith though... :embarassed:


If one more perosn mentions the lorica segmentata, I swear....

Ok... Lorica Segmentata

[Wardo]

The armor is pretty. It's "different". I think that's all there is to it.

If it wouldn't use any additional unit slot and just a different texture, even if it had no different stats or whatever, yes it would be neat indeed to have them recruitable in Dacia.

Honestly, I raise my Seleucid armies by visual. Some units look great and I know I have a good army when the mix and match looks about right. :laugh4:

Just kidding, you know, but the Seleucids do have some really nice and cool looking, "unique" or "different" units. :2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wigwerth, please forgive, but I must disagree:

I have tried on Lorica Segmentata as a reenactor, and while it IS difficult to put on, Rome preferred to fight pitched battles anyway... and in any case mail is no piece of cake either.

If the camp was attacked in the night it would be a lot of dead legionaries. Mail takes 30 seconds to put on, or 1/4 the time.


Its remarkably lightweight, and quite comfortable as armor goes. Mail, which I've also worn, is by contrast much heavier and more awkward. I found segmentata to be pretty unobstrusive - and you have to keep in mind that the Roman soldier was not expected to be particularly agile in combat. Walk/jog into position (which is easier with segmentata because mail has a tendency to bounce around), lock formation, hold shields out, block incoming blow with shield, shield-punch, sword stab, lather rinse repeat. While on a strategic and grand-tactical level Roman armies were flexible, on a tactical level their troops were not meant to be as such.

Good mail should be comfortable, it distrubutes the weight better and if it fits well it should provide more freedom of movement. its certainly much quieter and doesn't scare dogs. Actually the Legionary was expected to be quite versatile, there is evidence that there may have been legionary archers and slingers among the ranks.


Segmentata's segmented form allows it to absorb blows better than a comparable amount of mail, and does so not only weighing less, but also costing less as well. Probably its biggest fault is its dependence on leather straps to various bits together, but with good leather (unlike a lot of cheap stuff you find in some bad segmentata's today), that's not particularly likely, and the straps are easily replaced after the battle.

Good, well cared for mail will last 100 years before it wears out. Lorica Segmentata won't last 20 years without a lot of work. Mail is also less likely to be damaged in combat. Repair would require the removal of copper rivits and in the case of type B and C it would also require the bending and anealing of new copper hooks WHICH BREAK WITHOU WARNING.

From a logistics position mail is about 20 times better, from a protection point of view they score the same, for different reasons.

At the end of the day it comes down to this. No Centurian, Standard Bearer or Officer wears Lorica Segmentata, EVER. If it was really that good they would. The only real advantages are blunt trauma protection and weight. There is some evidence that the Romans may have worn a form of arming garment below mail, which partially negates the blunt trauma issue, and increases comfort. Wearing such a garment under Segmentata would be more difficult as it would be more likely to wear the leather. The armour was also only in use for around 150 years, despite its relative ease of contruction. Added to this it offers no leg or groin protection.

[Comrade Alexeo]

If the camp was attacked in the night it would be a lot of dead legionaries. Mail takes 30 seconds to put on, or 1/4 the time.

If the camp was attacked in the night, then the Roman soldiers would have plenty of time to put on their armor - given that the camps, even in the field, were well fortified and there was ALWAYS a night watch, and usually cavalry patrols as well.




Good mail should be comfortable, it distrubutes the weight better and if it fits well it should provide more freedom of movement. its certainly much quieter and doesn't scare dogs. Actually the Legionary was expected to be quite versatile, there is evidence that there may have been legionary archers and slingers among the ranks.

Segmentata is hardly loud, so your sound argument has no real bearing. Dogs were not common in Roman warfare and in any case any dog that was afraid of the sound of friendly armor was not a suitable war dog.

Legionary archers and slingers were invariably auxiliaries or in auxiliary units, and if they wore armor, they usually wore chain mail, which is satisfactory for protection against ranged enemies. Legionaries proper possessed very large shields which were sufficient protection against enemy projectiles, and so allowed them to wear segmentata, which was better for close-quarters battle.




Good, well cared for mail will last 100 years before it wears out. Lorica Segmentata won't last 20 years without a lot of work. Mail is also less likely to be damaged in combat. Repair would require the removal of copper rivits and in the case of type B and C it would also require the bending and anealing of new copper hooks WHICH BREAK WITHOU WARNING.

I would like to know where you got those numbers. In any case, broken mail is certainly more difficult to fix than segmentata because 1) the rings must fix exactly or else the suit will be deformed and 2) riveting mail is very time-consuming and tedious process. Believe me, I've made it - its hard on your hands. Segmentata looks more complicated but is structurally much simpler. Also, they were brass or bronze, not copper - and the fact that helmets were commonly made of brass or bronze even once iron was figured out testifies that clearly there was faith in those metals.


From a logistics position mail is about 20 times better, from a protection point of view they score the same, for different reasons.

Lugging around zillions of tiny little iron rings for mail... or simply some larger segmentata brass fittings? In a worst-case scenario, having to melt down an enemy's helmet to replace the segmentata fittings also seems easier than having to make a bunch of iron chains. I've already mentioned that segmentata is easier and cheaper to make (meaning you'd be more likely to have spares), and in any case, Roman logistics were generally so far ahead of everyone else's that it would hardly matter what you had to schlep...

A clear advantage mail has over segmentata is that mail, by its structural nature, is less prone to rusting because of the rubbing action of the rings. Then again, any competent legionary would be mindful of his equipment.


At the end of the day it comes down to this. No Centurian, Standard Bearer or Officer wears Lorica Segmentata, EVER. If it was really that good they would. The only real advantages are blunt trauma protection and weight. There is some evidence that the Romans may have worn a form of arming garment below mail, which partially negates the blunt trauma issue, and increases comfort. Wearing such a garment under Segmentata would be more difficult as it would be more likely to wear the leather. The armour was also only in use for around 150 years, despite its relative ease of contruction. Added to this it offers no leg or groin protection.

Well of course they didn't like to wear it - they're officers, not lowly infantry! They needed to be easily identifiable in a battle, which was why they wore crests or animal skins, had different shields, and - yep, might wear different armor. Again, like I've said before, mail is more expensive and more difficult to make than segmentata, and arguably more aesthetically pleasing, so it would be more prestigious to wear it. The same applies to signifers or cornicens wearing lorica squamata (plate armor), which militarily was not as satisfactory as either mail or segmentata, but was certainly very attractive and flashy - not to mention more complicated and expensive. Consider the muscle cuirass as well. Naturally inflexible and quite uncomfortable on a horse, it was worn because it looks distinctive and heroic. If we are to believe Vegetius, centurion armor and helmets were often silvered - a useless military gesture, but powerful social one.

The garment you are thinking of is the subarmalis, which is in various forms worn under all armors; one of its main purposes is to simply stop the armor from dirtying up your tunic. It could be made of most anything - linen, leather, wool - and would no more wear away the leather linings of a lorica segmentata than your tunic would, and probably less so because the segmentata is rather sturdy around your chest. Subarmali for segmentata also needed less padding than those for hamata or squamata.

You are correct that for the lower body hamata and squamata offer more protection, but they weren't as long as you seem to suspect - just below your groin at most, typically. This could actually be a bad thing - movement might be a bit more restricted, it was quite possible for it to be slapping you in your testicles if you ran (uncomfortable, to say the least?), and it would probably just be yet more strain on the soldier's legs. In any case, whatever armor you wore Roman soldiers did not generally wear leg or groin armor, mainly because your shield was there already, but also because against Rome's enemies that wasn't really a big issue; a barbarian was much more likely to swing at your head than your calves, so you might as well save those few extra pounds and save some energy. This is not to say that legionaries couldn't wear greaves if they desired them and bought them of their own volition, and centurions, of course, wore greaves - but, again, more as a badge of rank.






Please do not take my rebuttals as attacking you, but attacking your opinions, which, while bringing up several interesting points, simply do not seem to face up to the facts.

[Elthore]

Seems like lighter armour would also reduce the march time for the legions, which im sure was considered.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If the camp was attacked in the night, then the Roman soldiers would have plenty of time to put on their armor - given that the camps, even in the field, were well fortified and there was ALWAYS a night watch, and usually cavalry patrols as well.

A good point but the fact remains that if the camp could not be defended then the pallisade could be breached relatively quickly and if it takes three minutes to get suited up rather than just under two thats an issue.


Segmentata is hardly loud, so your sound argument has no real bearing. Dogs were not common in Roman warfare and in any case any dog that was afraid of the sound of friendly armor was not a suitable war dog.

Its louder than mail and it has been shown that rapid movement will cause noise, which would alert emeny dogs.


Legionary archers and slingers were invariably auxiliaries or in auxiliary units, and if they wore armor, they usually wore chain mail, which is satisfactory for protection against ranged enemies. Legionaries proper possessed very large shields which were sufficient protection against enemy projectiles, and so allowed them to wear segmentata, which was better for close-quarters battle.

There is a grave steele, irrc from Northern Britain, which refers to a Legionary archer. It is considered quite odd but it suggests that the Legions may have had some form of organic ranged troops, much as they had organic cavalry. As I said before, segmentata is good for blunt trauma, there are chests plates that have simpley been punched through by spears. Those platers were only 0.7mm in thickness anyway.


I would like to know where you got those numbers. In any case, broken mail is certainly more difficult to fix than segmentata because 1) the rings must fix exactly or else the suit will be deformed and 2) riveting mail is very time-consuming and tedious process. Believe me, I've made it - its hard on your hands. Segmentata looks more complicated but is structurally much simpler. Also, they were brass or bronze, not copper - and the fact that helmets were commonly made of brass or bronze even once iron was figured out testifies that clearly there was faith in those metals.

From an archaeologist who specialises in Roman Military History and living archaeology. It doesn't take into account battle damage, bear in mind that general wear and tear would be of greater concern in many provinces. The fittings were copper, as meterological analysis has now shown, it is thought that removing the brass rivit was too time consuming. I got that from the Ermin Street Guard, in case you were wondering.


Lugging around zillions of tiny little iron rings for mail... or simply some larger segmentata brass fittings? In a worst-case scenario, having to melt down an enemy's helmet to replace the segmentata fittings also seems easier than having to make a bunch of iron chains. I've already mentioned that segmentata is easier and cheaper to make (meaning you'd be more likely to have spares), and in any case, Roman logistics were generally so far ahead of everyone else's that it would hardly matter what you had to schlep...

As mail gives I would have thought it was less likely to to break in battle, as oppossed to the leather straps, which are quite prown to snapping in general and I would have thought when put under presure, say from a sword blow, more so. In general I would expect you could come out of a battle with your mail intact, not so Lorica Segmentata, it would have to have all its straps checked again.


A clear advantage mail has over segmentata is that mail, by its structural nature, is less prone to rusting because of the rubbing action of the rings. Then again, any competent legionary would be mindful of his equipment.

More durable and easier to clean, I'm glad we agree on something.



Well of course they didn't like to wear it - they're officers, not lowly infantry! They needed to be easily identifiable in a battle, which was why they wore crests or animal skins, had different shields, and - yep, might wear different armor. Again, like I've said before, mail is more expensive and more difficult to make than segmentata, and arguably more aesthetically pleasing, so it would be more prestigious to wear it. The same applies to signifers or cornicens wearing lorica squamata (plate armor), which militarily was not as satisfactory as either mail or segmentata, but was certainly very attractive and flashy - not to mention more complicated and expensive. Consider the muscle cuirass as well. Naturally inflexible and quite uncomfortable on a horse, it was worn because it looks distinctive and heroic. If we are to believe Vegetius, centurion armor and helmets were often silvered - a useless military gesture, but powerful social one.

That arguement holds much less for Centurians. If Lorica Segmentata was better for close combat they would have worn it, as they would have worn the armour which provided the best chance of survival.

The Scale armour could have been Lamella or Lorica Squamata, which is ribbed and fixed to a mail backing such armour is significantly better than anything else Roman infantry wore, though heavier.


The garment you are thinking of is the subarmalis, which is in various forms worn under all armors; one of its main purposes is to simply stop the armor from dirtying up your tunic. It could be made of most anything - linen, leather, wool - and would no more wear away the leather linings of a lorica segmentata than your tunic would, and probably less so because the segmentata is rather sturdy around your chest. Subarmali for segmentata also needed less padding than those for hamata or squamata.

I stand corrected on the last point, although the evidence for its existance is patchy. I admit that I was guessing there and on reflection I can't really back it up. Besides that such a garment would negate the advantate of Segmentata.


You are correct that for the lower body hamata and squamata offer more protection, but they weren't as long as you seem to suspect - just below your groin at most, typically. This could actually be a bad thing - movement might be a bit more restricted, it was quite possible for it to be slapping you in your testicles if you ran (uncomfortable, to say the least?), and it would probably just be yet more strain on the soldier's legs. In any case, whatever armor you wore Roman soldiers did not generally wear leg or groin armor, mainly because your shield was there already, but also because against Rome's enemies that wasn't really a big issue; a barbarian was much more likely to swing at your head than your calves, so you might as well save those few extra pounds and save some energy. This is not to say that legionaries couldn't wear greaves if they desired them and bought them of their own volition, and centurions, of course, wore greaves - but, again, more as a badge of rank.

Modern indications suggest that "balls and eyes" are the things soldiers are most worried about and I doubt that has changed.


Please do not take my rebuttals as attacking you, but attacking your opinions, which, while bringing up several interesting points, simply do not seem to face up to the facts.

In point of fact thins is the only part of your post I find offensive.

[Comrade Alexeo]

A good point but the fact remains that if the camp could not be defended then the pallisade could be breached relatively quickly and if it takes three minutes to get suited up rather than just under two thats an issue.

...which is why the Romans encamped, and why they always had watches and guards about. In any case, the Roman's primary assets in emergency combat were his sword and shield, and then his helmet, and then his armor. Roman losses if their camp was attacked would result from their being disoriented and disorganized... not their lack of armor to put on.




Its louder than mail and it has been shown that rapid movement will cause noise, which would alert emeny dogs.

I still don't know what you're talking about, because lorica segmentata isn't loud. It sits on a padded subarmalis and is rather solidly on one; mail tends to be looser fitting, and thus would move more and make more noise.

In any case the loudest part of the Roman's outfit was not his armor - it was his belt. The jingling and jangling of a Roman legion moving into position results from the danglies of his belt striking each other, not his armor.



There is a grave steele, irrc from Northern Britain, which refers to a Legionary archer. It is considered quite odd but it suggests that the Legions may have had some form of organic ranged troops, much as they had organic cavalry. As I said before, segmentata is good for blunt trauma, there are chests plates that have simpley been punched through by spears. Those platers were only 0.7mm in thickness anyway.

-shrug- I'm sure if they wanted to get segmentata, they could get segmentata, but by and large they didn't. Not much else to say here.




From an archaeologist who specialises in Roman Military History and living archaeology. It doesn't take into account battle damage, bear in mind that general wear and tear would be of greater concern in many provinces. The fittings were copper, as meterological analysis has now shown, it is thought that removing the brass rivit was too time consuming. I got that from the Ermin Street Guard, in case you were wondering.

My source for the fittings, Legio XX, says they were brass. It's possible it varied, although brass/bronze are tougher than copper alone, so it seems more likely they would use those...




As mail gives I would have thought it was less likely to to break in battle, as oppossed to the leather straps, which are quite prown to snapping in general and I would have thought when put under presure, say from a sword blow, more so. In general I would expect you could come out of a battle with your mail intact, not so Lorica Segmentata, it would have to have all its straps checked again.

You do have to keep an eye out on the straps, but that's just normal mind-your-equipment checking. And while they are the most vulnerable part of segmentata, I think it would be better for you to see how they actually work.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/sgint1.jpg

Segmentata is naturally collapseable (it won't stand upright on its own). The straps (quite thick ones if your segmentata is any good) are all working in concert to hold the plates together, so the strain on them is not as much as you think; the concept is similar to that trick where you get 5 or so people to lift somebody with just one finger. The length of the strap between each plate and rivet is not much, which also protects against excessive strain. When placed on a subarmalis (which, by its close-fitting nature, also helps to hold the armor, further reducing strap strain), the segmentata really does just like to sit there. The crucial inner straps cannot be directly cut, and if the armor is struck then plate A collapses into plate B, which means the straps are never dangerously stretched. They don't get pulled on; if anything, they bunch up. If a barbarian managed to "hook" your armor in such a way so that he could pull one segment down on its own, then yeah, it might break... but you're also probably dead by this point.

The most vulnerable bits are the outside straps, which hold the two sides of the armor together, much like buttons on a shirt.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorA2.jpg

However, the target area is not a particular large one, nor a particularly easy one to be cutting at. Besides, if you're a barbarian and you're already in that close, you'd be more liable to swing at his neck or his limbs or his chest as a whole...



Theoretically, having the armor rely on straps seems dangerous and adds vulnerability, but in practice it doesn't really work out that way.




More durable and easier to clean, I'm glad we agree on something.


Careful... if by "more durable" you are referring to mail armor not being as likely to rust, then yes...





That arguement holds much less for Centurians. If Lorica Segmentata was better for close combat they would have worn it, as they would have worn the armour which provided the best chance of survival.

That's ignoring the great prestige that comes with being a centurion, for one. If you have "it", you flaunt "it'; its just a basic rule of man. A centurion's crest was hardly a combat asset; it marked him out to the enemy, and it made his helmet somewhat top heavy, which was why regular legionaires only wore them on special occasions - but he still wore it. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable. The medallions he wore were big, heavy, clumsy, and attached together with leather straps (which, being on the outside, would here this time be vulnerable), and served no combat purpose whatsoever - but he still wore them. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable.

A centurion would not throw himself into the fray without good reason, because he had to lead his men. This is not to say he certainly could not fight - he was likely the best swordsman in the entire century - but it was not his job to fight individually as a barbarian, but as the leader of his team. His soldiers would have easily understood this with few qualms, because a centurion, by his very stature, had already proved himself to be competent and brave. His death would not spur on his century, but only cause confusion in the ranks as the optio (second-in-command), who would be directing the ranks further back, would have to be informed and then take command of twice as many troops as he normally would.


The Scale armour could have been Lamella or Lorica Squamata, which is ribbed and fixed to a mail backing such armour is significantly better than anything else Roman infantry wore, though heavier.

Lorica squamata, which could theoretically be worn by anyone, had fabric backing. You're thinking of lorica plumata, which consisted of fine mail and small scales, and was reserved for officers.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/centuriondrawing.jpg

You're probably right that it was the best armor overall, but it was also enormously expensive - and in any case evaluating such fanciful armors like these for combat is not usually worthwhile. Again, it was probably more to look pretty than to be protective. After all, cornicens (horn-blowers) would wear it - and they weren't exactly supposed to charge into the fray with their tubas...





I stand corrected on the last point, although the evidence for its existance is patchy. I admit that I was guessing there and on reflection I can't really back it up. Besides that such a garment would negate the advantate of Segmentata.

No, it would only make the segmentata yet more effective. At best it might be, on a scoring scale, putting mail from a 85 to an 87 , and segmentata from 93 to 94, or something like that.





Modern indications suggest that "balls and eyes" are the things soldiers are most worried about and I doubt that has changed.

Yeah, but that nice big shield does a great job protecting the family jewels :)





This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...







In any case, this conversation is moot. If you're going to cover the period that segmentata was in, then segmentata should be in. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant; Rome liked it, therefore, Rome should get it.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

i love this discussion. im learining alot!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, I have been away, which is why I haven't posted.


...which is why the Romans encamped, and why they always had watches and guards about. In any case, the Roman's primary assets in emergency combat were his sword and shield, and then his helmet, and then his armor. Roman losses if their camp was attacked would result from their being disoriented and disorganized... not their lack of armor to put on.

All True, yet what about a situation why a detachment wasn't able to build a properly fortified camp? An unusual occurance perhaps but in that case they couldn't sllep in Lorrica Segmentata, they might manage it in mail.


I still don't know what you're talking about, because lorica segmentata isn't loud. It sits on a padded subarmalis and is rather solidly on one; mail tends to be looser fitting, and thus would move more and make more noise.

As I said, it apparently fritens dogs, try jumping up and down. In this case all I can say is I trust the man who told me this, especially since he was wearing segmentata at the time.


In any case the loudest part of the Roman's outfit was not his armor - it was his belt. The jingling and jangling of a Roman legion moving into position results from the danglies of his belt striking each other, not his armor.

Granted, would you rather lose the belt or the armour.





-shrug- I'm sure if they wanted to get segmentata, they could get segmentata, but by and large they didn't. Not much else to say here.

The Archers? I would have thought it would have prevented them drawing a bow. Interestingly enough Vegetius states all Roman soldiers were trained with the bow.


My source for the fittings, Legio XX, says they were brass. It's possible it varied, although brass/bronze are tougher than copper alone, so it seems more likely they would use those...

The Ermine Street Guard (Legio IX) says:

"Recent inspection of the Corbridge 'Hoard' lorica segmentata by Bishop (1996 unpublished) has revealed that they were manufactured using almost pure copper rivets and not, as previously thought, brass or bronze and iron rivets. Although it may seem that this is of minor significance, it can lead to some new hypotheses on the manufacture of lorica segmentata. It could be suggested that copper rivets would be too soft and malleable for use on protective armour, and that they may be adversely affected by wear. Even so it could be said that the leather straps are even less durable and would break before the copper rivets. The use of copper rivets may, however, be deliberate facilitating construction and perhaps more importantly, repair of lorica segmentata. If copper rivets are used it would mean that due to their malleability they are easier to remove using cold chisels (metal working chisels) and drifts (metal bars used to drive softer bars through holes) than copper alloy or iron rivets, speeding up the repair process,"

I tend to think those guys know what they're talking about, they work very hard and have a great deal of experience.


You do have to keep an eye out on the straps, but that's just normal mind-your-equipment checking. And while they are the most vulnerable part of segmentata, I think it would be better for you to see how they actually work.

Segmentata is naturally collapseable (it won't stand upright on its own). The straps (quite thick ones if your segmentata is any good) are all working in concert to hold the plates together, so the strain on them is not as much as you think; the concept is similar to that trick where you get 5 or so people to lift somebody with just one finger. The length of the strap between each plate and rivet is not much, which also protects against excessive strain. When placed on a subarmalis (which, by its close-fitting nature, also helps to hold the armor, further reducing strap strain), the segmentata really does just like to sit there. The crucial inner straps cannot be directly cut, and if the armor is struck then plate A collapses into plate B, which means the straps are never dangerously stretched. They don't get pulled on; if anything, they bunch up. If a barbarian managed to "hook" your armor in such a way so that he could pull one segment down on its own, then yeah, it might break... but you're also probably dead by this point.

You misunderstand, I do know how Segmentata works, I also know that if one strap were to break that would put strain on the others, which means you might want to replace the lot of them. What I'm more concerned with is damage to the plates themselves. Mail might be more time consuming to repair but a line of broken rings is just that, a busted iron plate is more serious, since the thing either has to be repaired or replaced. As I said, the armour is good for blunt trauma, but a spear will and, has, go right through.


The most vulnerable bits are the outside straps, which hold the two sides of the armor together, much like buttons on a shirt.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorA2.jpg

However, the target area is not a particular large one, nor a particularly easy one to be cutting at. Besides, if you're a barbarian and you're already in that close, you'd be more liable to swing at his neck or his limbs or his chest as a whole...

How about the neck scarf to protect his neck? Thats a flaw, what about the seem in the middle at the front? Again spear, straight through.


Theoretically, having the armor rely on straps seems dangerous and adds vulnerability, but in practice it doesn't really work out that way.

Careful... if by "more durable" you are referring to mail armor not being as likely to rust, then yes...

Yes, by its nature it doesn't rust, or worse, rot. Nor will it suffer from general wear and tear, it also has the advantage of going a very attractive dull brown rather than being a shiny (ish) dull grey.


That's ignoring the great prestige that comes with being a centurion, for one. If you have "it", you flaunt "it'; its just a basic rule of man. A centurion's crest was hardly a combat asset; it marked him out to the enemy, and it made his helmet somewhat top heavy, which was why regular legionaires only wore them on special occasions - but he still wore it. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable. The medallions he wore were big, heavy, clumsy, and attached together with leather straps (which, being on the outside, would here this time be vulnerable), and served no combat purpose whatsoever - but he still wore them. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable.

A centurion would not throw himself into the fray without good reason, because he had to lead his men. This is not to say he certainly could not fight - he was likely the best swordsman in the entire century - but it was not his job to fight individually as a barbarian, but as the leader of his team. His soldiers would have easily understood this with few qualms, because a centurion, by his very stature, had already proved himself to be competent and brave. His death would not spur on his century, but only cause confusion in the ranks as the optio (second-in-command), who would be directing the ranks further back, would have to be informed and then take command of twice as many troops as he normally would.

You know as well as I do a Centurian's crest is specifically there so that you can see him and make a bee-line for him, as to silvering your armour I believe Legionaries did it as well if they could, as it stops you armour from rusting, particually in the rain. I also don't believe the crest boxes were actually as large as depicted, did you know the Romans had no effective red dye for horsehair. So the crest would have to be a natural colour, i.e. a Bay Roan.


Lorica squamata, which could theoretically be worn by anyone, had fabric backing. You're thinking of lorica plumata, which consisted of fine mail and small scales, and was reserved for officers.

You're probably right that it was the best armor overall, but it was also enormously expensive - and in any case evaluating such fanciful armors like these for combat is not usually worthwhile. Again, it was probably more to look pretty than to be protective. After all, cornicens (horn-blowers) would wear it - and they weren't exactly supposed to charge into the fray with their tubas...

Evaluating any armour used is worthwile, as that is how you judge it, especially if it is found to be very effective. Either way if mail was really very inferior a Centurian wouldn't wear it. Oh, and you're right about the name.


No, it would only make the segmentata yet more effective. At best it might be, on a scoring scale, putting mail from a 85 to an 87 , and segmentata from 93 to 94, or something like that.

I meant it would negate its advantage over mail by making it easier to withstand blunt trauma. Your own evaluation bears that out really.


Yeah, but that nice big shield does a great job protecting the family jewels :)

You can never have too much protection for them.


This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...

Is your segmentata made out of hammered iron 0.7mm thick or is it over engineered.


In any case, this conversation is moot. If you're going to cover the period that segmentata was in, then segmentata should be in. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant; Rome liked it, therefore, Rome should get it.

Well we end in 14 AD irrc and Segmentata wasn't invented then, so it won't be in regardless. :2thumbsup:

Don't you think its odd though that it is so often found at Auxillery Cavalry forts, given the fact that you can't really wear it and ride a Roman sadle?

[Grimmy]

anyone here consider that it's well into the range of 1000+ man hours to make a mail shirt? Also, that's not a "fitted" mail shirt, just a mail shirt made to template.

If the mail shirts were fitted to each individual soldier, you'd have great difficulty ever getting enough troops dressed for their first fight to actually have a fight.

And I dont get this whole thing of leather straps breaking? Cut maybe but breaking from simple wear?

As a youngin we'd go camping every summer. A month long camp/hiking trip. 10 miles on foot a day or there abouts. I had a backpack. I'd carry upwards of 50 lbs in that pack and it had leather shoulder straps. I had that pack for 10 years. Never once had a problem with either of those leather straps.

Leather has a hella lot more tensile strenght than some seem to assume.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Because of the way the armour moves the straps are under conflicting stresses, they get bent, twisted, compressed and skewed in pretty much every direction, eventually they break. Added to this sweat can rot them.

As to time 1000 man hours is very excessive for an armourer who does nothing else. We know they could quite happily equip 5,000 men with mail because they did.

[Grimmy]

I realize they did equip the men they put into the field but there's no way any of those mail suits were fitted nicely, except by the rare accident. It just cant be done.

As to the leather, actually no. It would be a very very poor job of design if what you insist were true. Even looking at the pics it is pretty easy to see that the load bearing issue is well thought out.

I have no clue what sort of armor was more prevalent or why but I do know that the historian/pedant's habit of looking at a narrow set of statistics, especially when those statistics are based more on guess than on actual functional knowledge often leads to some pretty outrageous concepts.

This is an issue that should always be kept in mind when experts in anything ancient are discussing "facts".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They're only t-shirts of mail and given that every soldier bought his own kit he could have gone the extra mile and gotten one fitted, if he saved up. Beyond that they were making so many of the things they could afford to make different sizes, rather than the "one size fits all" of today's mail.

As to the leather:


Reconstructions of loricae segmentatae armour are primarily based upon the finds from the 'Corbridge Hoard'. Although this provides no full set, it contains three sets of girdle plates and five half collars with attached shoulder plates and three variations of the basic lorica type. All of the types of lorica segmentatae classified Corbridge type 'X, 'B' and 'C' by Robinson (l975:p.177) use an arrangement of internal leather straps to join together a series of metal plates of various shapes and sizes; when worn producing a flexible form of armour, which is able to concertina upon itself. The continual movement of the metal plates causes the leathers to be constantly under stress which eventually makes them liable to break. This most frequently occurs with the leathers connecting the shoulder plates. Due to their disturbance whenever the arms are moved, they are continually being put under differing stresses. After the E.S.G.'s trips abroad, to the south of France and Portugal, where the armour is worn in high temperatures, it has been noticed that these breakages increased and it can be suggested that the increased perspiration has been a direct cause of the perishing of internal leather straps. When these leathers break it is not possible to make temporary repairs. It is necessary to remove at least six rivets before putting in a replacement leather if a girdle leather breaks, and at least three rivets to repair a broken shoulder leather. Once a leather has broken it normally becomes advisable to replace all the leathers in that piece of the armour and to effectively strip it down and rebuild it. It could be suggested therefore, that before the Roman military undertook any form of campaign they would check every piece of leather and probably replace a great many of the leathers while in secure conditions, to minimise repairs in the field. Eventually, though, increased numbers of finds from campaign camps may clarify this.

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/legionary%20equipment.htm

[NeoSpartan]

Try fighting somebody for real for 3 mins only and tell how tired your gonna be?
Mail is very heavy and the last thing a soldier/fighter wants is to be is tired in the middle of a fight. Why do you think there is so much emphasis in conditioning (running) and light weight armor in any military.

Eventhough, the Roman military complex was able to prodocue enough Mail shirts, those smiths were able to produce A LOT MORE plate armor in the same amount of time once it was invented.

Also, mail shirts were AGAIN substituded in Medieaval Europe by Plate armor. (only this time the Plates didn't use leather straps).

[Chester]

This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...

Wig, this above quote by Comrade Alexeo sort of sealed the deal. He has hands on proof, and thats aside from all his fancy pics and research.

He and a group of others run around in this stuff, it's from the horses mouth, so to speak.

You don't need to pull a roman from the past to get this kind of info, you just ask an actor.

This sort of scenario reminds me of the the field engineer vs. the academic engineer. The academic engineer can tell you every thing a widget is made out of, how many forumlas are needed to find X and Y, and probably write a few pages on theoretical applications. But he can't tell you how to install it or even drop you a cost estimate. And at the end of the day, thats all any one cares about.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Except that I get everything I know from another group of guys. So I'm only one space removed. Fair enough I don't have first hand experience but I have plenty of second-hand experience and textual knowledge to back it up.

NeoSpartan, high and late Medieval plate was totally different and much heavier than mail. A Roman soldier's battle-dress is roughly the same weight as a modern soldier's and his harching kit is lighter, although more awkward. In any case there is evidence the infantry battle took several hours and the men would have been fitter than probably anyone except the SAS. If the weight of mail was truely prohibative it would not have been popular for 1,500 years. Lorica Segmentata lasted a bare 150-180 years by comparison. Further, the the suits became simpler and less effective in terms of protection with a greater emphasis on repairability.

I do not deny that Lorica Segmentata provides a greater degree of protection from blunt trauma, not that it was lighter. However it is more labour intensive to maintain and more prone to breakage in the field through wear. It is also more prone to rust which can be a problem in wet climates, though less so with iron than modern steel. What Lorica Segmentata does not provide is great protection from thrusting weapons, such as spears. Nor is it as flexable or easy to put or on as mail. Further there is good evidence that mail was never abandonded by the rank and file and given that Lorica Segmentata is supposed to be cheaper and quicker to amke this raises serious questions that have yet to be answered.

Had you checked the link I posted you would see that the quote is from the Ermine Street Guard, arguably the world-leaders in re-enactment.

[Reverend Joe]

If one more perosn mentions the segmentata, I swear....:wall:
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Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica 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Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata.

:laugh4:

[Imperator]

....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen:jawdrop:

but back on topic, I think one thing that needs to be considered: if the Lori-I mean, the you know what- really was noisy, fragile, and difficult to handle, why would it have been used so widely? The Romans were always wiling to incorperate better ideas into their own military system, so why would they use such inferior armour for so long? That, combined with the testimony from someone who has actually worn the stuff seems to demonstrate that it must have been what it's cracked up to be.

[Foot]

But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot

[Reverend Joe]

....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen:jawdrop:

No, it's not. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=66458)

And Foot, et al- it is possible that the Lorica Segmentata fell out of production because of a deteriorating infastructure in Rome, which could no longer afford the expense or technical expertise to produce the Segmentata, and so defaulted to Hamata. Look at the heavy-armored cavalrymen for another example of this: they dissappeared shortly after the 30 years war, despite being still technically useful, as their armor was bullet-resistant to an impressive degree (many plates have been tested by being fired upon with a .45 caliber pistol, and were able to withstand the force of the bullet.) However, they simply became too expensive to maintain, and so the kingdoms of Europe defaulted to lightly armored cavalry for the rest of the cavalry's lifetime.

[Chester]

But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

The Romans abandoned Lorica Segmentata around 200 AD give or take a couple of decades. Thats about a hundred years before the Empire actually suffers the breakdown to which you refer.

As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact.

As to heavy cavalry, that has a much to do with the changing nature of warfare, the decline of the nobility and the rise of the proffesional soldier as anything else. Don't forget that heavy cavalry also require heavy horses and pack animals to carry the heavy armour. Added to which the change in infantry tactics made them defunct as a massed charge was no longer anywhere near as effective.

As early as the 13th Century some knights were having trouble equipping themselves.

No one is disputing the traditional advantages espoused for LS, we are merely pointing out the myriad problems, mainly of a logistical nature. I see LS as an ancient SA80. Great as long as the armourer is next door but the longer you spend in the backcountry the more you wish you had something less fancy and more reliable.

Regardless there is no Roman unit in EB that will use the armour.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

No, it's not. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=66458)you dont like mine (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1216765&postcount=7)?

[NeoSpartan]

After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).

Also during this time Cavalry, specially Heavy Gothic cavarly, started to gain prominance over the heavy infantry.

Quote by Wigferth Ironwall:
"As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact"

Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).

Qoute by Foot.
"But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot"

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).

Yes, thankyou, I'm aware of all that. However the Lorica Segmentata dissapears around the time of Commodus' death and the decline does not begin until after the death of Septimus Severus. Or rather the final decline does not begin until then. In point of fact the Roman military had been in decline from the time of Marius.


Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).

It is not plate armour in the same sence as a breast and back plate, it opperates on different principles and the various plates are only 0.7mm thick. In point of fact it is never considered to be "plate" in the same sense as a breastplate, it is usually considered to be more closely related to scale, because it operates on the same basic principle.


Qoute by Foot.
"But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot"

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?

[Tyfus]

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

He has a point the dark ages were called the dark ages for a reason. Alot of stuff was forgotton probably including the knowledge of how to make certain types of armour

And although exact dates are debated it is pretty much agreed that the roman empire began its decent long before 200 AD.

[Reverend Joe]

you dont like mine (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1216765&postcount=7)?
:laugh4: It's a bottomless pit!

(Well, effectively, anyway.)

[NeoSpartan]

you dont like mine (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1216765&postcount=7)?

I GOT TO THE END!!!! (as u can tell I am bored as hell today :wall: )

[NeoSpartan]

When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?

Only a LOT more advanced. Using Rivited Plates:

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/Neospartan/knight3.jpg

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

rcross, I realize much knowledge was lost, what you don't seem to grasp is that Lorica Segmentata disappears well before 217 AD, which is the point between the death of Caracalla and the rise of Domitian. Prior to 217 AD the Empire was intact and although there had been four years of Civil War recovery would have been complete in a decade even under a merely competent leader. Caracalla was the last Emperor to die of natural causes, bar one, for the next seventy five years. This is when the Empire fragments and the Legions really begin to break down.

NeoSpartan, you seem to be intent on not listening.

That picture is of full plate armour, it is essentially the same type of armour as Alexandros' Companions wore. It functions by placing a solid barrier between you and the blow. Lorica Segmentata functions by absorbing the flow, precisely because it is not solid. By yielding it dissipates the force throughout the armour, so that you are cushioned from the force.

The two are in no way related. Gothic plate is related to the Hellenic plate armours worn by Greek Cavalry and Roman officers.

If you actually look up the definition of plate armour you will find that is usually contains the word solid, LS does not fall under the definition

[Grimmy]

Pretend it's 2000 years from now.
Just out of curiosity, what do y'all suppose the accepted "truth" would be about US armed forces and their uniform/equipment if the "evidence" found through archeology is the Vietnam War memorial statue at DC?

That US soldiers may have routinely gone into battle with no clothing on their upper bodies, except for a vest of padded armor? That they were issued or wore no protective head gear except some form of soft cloth hat?

Assuming the statue survives intact (unlikely) what would be the academic truth accepted about the weaponry? Some went into battle almost totally unarmed? Those with the heavier weapons went into battle with a single belt of 100 rounds or so wrapped around their chests?

What theories do you suppose would win in the academic cult of personality to become the truth that explains that? Large cadres of supply runners must have kept a constant ferry of bullets coming from the trucks that had to be close? That they took turns running back to get more ammo as they shot theirs up in a sort of round robin?

Since reenactors base their outfits and actions upon the generally accepted academic truths of the period they want to portray, how do you think they might decide is the best answer?

I obviously have no clue about whether or not lorica or any other form of armor was used by whom or when. My only contention, and pet peeve, is how often academic truth tends to be as much a product of intellectual inbreeding and adherence to a cult of personality based around a favored author or professor with often laughably little real evidence.

I am not attempting to label anyone here or elsewhere as stupid or in any way be insulting. I am merely pointing out an all to often overlooked issue when strong personalities get involved in attempting to win debate over the realities of ancient days when by the very nature of the beast, the evidence is at the very best sketchy and always incomplete.

[NeoSpartan]

Dude, seriusly....It looks like you Really like Mail Armor, but....

U know what???? I am just gonna be straight with you dawg.
1-) Lorica Segmentata is a more effective type of armor than Mail. (period)
2-) Lorica Segmentata is composed of METAL PLATES, joined by leather straps, and the slight overlaping of these plates gives the wearer MOBILITY without compromising PROTECTION.
3-) Comrade Alexeo: Has just provided us with 1st HAND ACCOUNTS, of ACTUAL USAGE and PREFORMANCE of Lorica Segmentata and Mail.

Yet u still choose not to accept these points brought up and decide to refute them with:
A-) A plate is a SINGLE LARGE PEACE OF METAL THAT DOESN'T BEND.
B-) Still insiting that the in Lorica Segmentata LEATHER will break.
C-) Only saying that Lorica Segmentata was good for preventing blunt Trauma.
D-) Still using the FICTISIOS event that a Roman Camp might be overrun buy UNDETECTED enemy soldiers.
E-) And other stuff like "Lorica Segmentata functions by absorbing the blow, precisely because it is not solid" Say What??? :wall: (so is it a liquid, gas, or plasma?)

Dude, seriusly...Read and understand what Comrade Alexeo said. And do research on your own and you will see. :book:

Remember when doing research you should be able to Distinguish between CREDIBLE Sources and NOT so credible.
Best examples of Credible sources:

CREDIBLE SOURCES
1-) Primary Source Documents
-Basically an object/book/paining/soundrecording/etc from the time period being studied:
For Example:
A peice of armor excavated, painting/books made during the time period being researched, etc

2-) Secondary Source Documents
-Interpretations/Studies/Experiments made by Acredited Organisations/Groups/Individials that were made using Primary Source Documents.
For Example:
A history book detailing and explaining the use/types of Armor during Ancient and Medieval times. These books MUST HAVE a WORKS CITED page and the end (or biggining) showing where the author/s got that information from.

NOT SO CREDIBLE:
Forums, google.com, a web-page made by JoeSmoe called www.LoricaSegmentataIsTheBest.com, a Book WITHOUT a Works Cited page, etc...

[Fondor_Yards]

He has said more then once he uses the Ermine Street Guard as his source. Read his posts again. Since they are the best roman reactors, I would trust them when they say the leather will break and such. Comrade Alexeo never disputed the fact segmentata is worse vs stabbing weapons, so it's not it more effective. Chances are you will be fighting a man with a spear not a club.
How well did you read this thread?


E-) And other stuff like "Lorica Segmentata functions by absorbing the blow, precisely because it is not solid" Say What??? (so is it a liquid, gas, or plasma?)
No it is not a solid piece of metal, which is what he said. It's a group of metal pieces held together by straps.
Yes, segementata is in fact, made out of plasma. This roman secert let them simply run into enemy forces and burn them alive. ~:rolleyes:

[Trithemius]

He has said more then once he uses the Ermine Street Guard as his source. Read his posts again. Since they are the best roman reactors, I would trust them when they say the leather will break and such. Comrade Alexeo never disputed the fact segmentata is worse vs stabbing weapons, so it's not it more effective. Chances are you will be fighting a man with a spear not a club.
How well did you read this thread?


No it is not a solid piece of metal, which is what he said. It's a group of metal pieces held together by straps.
Yes, segementata is in fact, made out of plasma. This roman secert let them simply run into enemy forces and burn them alive. ~:rolleyes:

Time to stop this thread...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Graham_Chapman_Colonel.jpg

IT'S FAR TOO SILLY

[orwell]

That confused man won't halt anything, we need....
*cue proper music*
http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/a/a2/Emohitler.jpg/400px-Emohitler.jpg
Emo Hitler

[Trithemius]

That confused man won't halt anything, we need....
*cue proper music*
Emo Hitler

Rubbish. Who won the war anyway? ;)

[orwell]

Rubbish?! Why, if I had access to any of my old hdd's I would have a illustrated reply. Right now I'll leave mere text to hold the line while I hopefully can give horses to otherwise mounted men for the calvary charge that is a PoS SATA controller card.

[Fenrhyl]

I'll just add my grain of sand.

Lorica segmentata is inferior to mail armor for the following reasons :

1) A fault in armor at he shoulder joints from up headed blows coming from the face and from the sides.

2) Piercing blows coming diagonally onto the chest will be caught in the gutter formed beetwen two plates and led directly into the vertical jointing conveniently place right in the middle of the chest in a vertical way (OMG !) So to speak, this armor is just giving spears and gladii a highway to the sternum and all those delicate things hidden behind.

3) In close combat, a dagger can be sunk between two metal girdles with ease. More so because the overlappings are opened facing downside. The most powerfull and dangerous dagger blows are dealt upwards. You don't need any other explanation.

4) I so hope re-enactors are not serious about leather or linen ties to hold the armor together exposed at the front of the armor, right in the middle of the chest. If this is a real historical detail (i found nothing about this) then two daggers thrusts in close cobmat are enough to losen the whole armor. What a joke !

5) The joining at the front of the armor (again...) is also a weak spot against strong cleaving blows coming downwards from above the head.

This armor is basically a piece of swiss cheese. Still better than no cheese at all, but i don't understand how someone that can afford a chainmail suit would rather wear a lorica segmentata. I, as a sword wielder, would n

In the other hand mail is heavier but offers tremendous protection against piercing blows (when used with a gambeson or subarmalis) and slashing blows. Lorica hamata, like any kind of mial, offers no weak spot when it is well made. the only way to bypass it is to break it or to blugeon its wearer till he drops to the ground.
Furthermore, all contemporary autors insist on the excellent degree of protection from arrows given by the chainmail/underpadding combination. Accounts of soldiers walking back from the frontline with more than 20 arrows stuck in their armour, asking for help in order to get rid of those and to return into the fray, are frequent. The same accounts can be read from crusade chroniclers (joinville for example) both christian and muslim. That says something about the credit one can give to such accounts since both sides agree about this point.
It should be noted that thin metal bands offer far less resistance to thrusting. This is because the chainmail/underpadding combination acts as a pillow protected by an iron fabric. The chainmail itself does prevent the blow from penetrating this combination but the real absorbtion is realized by the underpadding. Since the chainmail is flexible and mobile around the body it accompanies the blow while it is cushioned by the underpadding. One ring may break but no more. Sword slashes area treated the same way.

All in all, pretending that the LS is superior to the LH while it is easier to produce is in complete opposition by the fall in disuse of this defensive weapon while the roman empire still possessed all its power. The ancients were struggling with a constant lack of ressources both in materials and manpower, allways looking for sulotions to this problem. Had the LS been the wonderfull tool of life saving you depict it would never had been forgotten. LH, chainmail would. And that all the more true in a time of crisis when you need to adequate cost and efficiency. Assuming that the romans discarded a better tool that costed less in favor of a worse one that costed more is just assuming that the empire was run by dickheads. From a re-enactor, that's hilarious.

So, to answer Neospartan :

1) Thank you for this brilliant demonstration.
2) There is no way a bunch of articulated plates and metal girdles can give more mobility than a chainmail. That has to do with the way the body is articulated and the way chainmail acts as a second skin while the plates and girdles act as box that allows movement. Like said above, the gaps between the plates are weak spots. 1 gap = 1 weak spot. Please count the number of weak spots the LS shown earlier has... A chainmail has no weak spots. So long for the "no protection loss" myth.
3) I can provide you with 3 first hand accounts about the value of renaissance full harnesses in combat from people praticing it (and giving real blows in tourneys.) None of them will agree with the two others. So long for relying on live actions reenactement to establish truths.

A) That's exactly that. It must not bend, never, NEVER. If it does it can prevent its wearer from moving an arm or from breathing. Plates possess a measure of elasticity but their goal is to dissipate the blow primarily through the surface of the armour and secondarily from elasticity. But it must not bend significantly. To realize this, plates were beaten to give them more density. Various steps of eating ad cooling were also practiced in order to give them resilience. You don't want a plate armor to be bendable.

B) It will break. Hell, Even silk that is more resilient and can't rot breaks (tha's from an armoursmith living in britanny.) Leather will break, and break fast when put under great stress. Any people that rides horses will tell you that there is a great deal of work involved in keeping the leather parts of the harness in good shape. And those are not beaten repeatedly in battle.

C) I did not read this. I read better than LH for protection from blugeoning blows. LS is obviously better against piercing or slashing than fabric or bare skin. I say it is inferior to LH when it comes to piercing and slashing.

D) Fictitious ? Like you have a sufficient knowledge of antiquity's accounts and sources to say it never happenened. Too bad it did, and several times, along the limes (both european and asian.) How do you think those barbarians could pass through it without any warning ? flying ?

E) Use resilient instead of solid. The key element of lorica segmentata is bendability, not resilience. 0.7 mm is not resilient. You can punch through it with a nail and your bare hands. A dagger, a spear, a sword, a pick will do that too.

I respectfully suggest you gain some insight about armour mechanics before becoming any more aggressive. Comparing a lamellar armor like the lorica segmentata to a plate armour like a gothic ribbed full harness was really the demonstration that you don't know what you are speaking about.

PS : french knights used lamellar armour. The ones who did were those unable to buy a real chainmail or plate broigne (first plate armors were evolution from scale armors : hard plates sewn on leather backings.) The word lamellar comes from the french word "lamelle" (lamellar armour = armure lamellaire) that can be defined as "a long, narrow and thin object." The same word is used for the pieces that are comprised in the LS.

PPS : a chainmail can last centuries if properly greased and repaired. I don't know of any other kind of armour that can.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Someone posted a link to this thread on the 'Roman Army Talk' forum - one of the best resources on the net for informed discussion about the archaeology and reconstruction of Roman arms and armour. I won't repeat their comments, but let's just say they weren't polite.

And rightly so - this thread represents one of the worst examples of armchair expertise and over-stated opinions presented as 'fact' I've seen in a long time.

Firstly, to argue that either mail or segmentata is inherently 'superior' to the other is flat out silly. The Roman army used both (and yes, it used both at the same time) because both were effective armour. Segmentata was more effective against blunt force trauma and could be mass produced more quickly. Mail required less maintenance, was more comfortable, was easier to store and transport, was 'one size fits all' (more or less) and had a longer useful working life. If one was inherantly superior to the other, we'd see one die out and the other survive. We don't. We see western legions equipped in segmentata and their eastern equivalents equipped in mail.

Secondly, the idea that segmentata dropped out of use because of some vast decline in the Empire's production capacity is a myth and it's definitely not supported by the evidence. The disappearance of segmentata was accompanied by other changes in the equipment of the Roman army. These changes seem to reflect a corresponding change in tactics in response to new challenges on the battlefield.

Those on this thread defending segmentata as some kind of 'uber-armour' have wildly overstated the supposed disadvantages of mail. Mail was the most commonly used form of armour in the whole of pre-Modern history, so the idea that it was too heavy, too expensive etc etc is plain silly. Similarly, those who are defending mail have wildly overstated the disadvantages of segmentata. It wasn't the ultimate-super-amazing armour that some armchair fanboys imagine, but statements like ' you couldn't carry your shield on your back while wearing segmentata' are flatly wrong.

Both forms of armour had their advantages and disadvantages, which is why the Roman army used both at the same time. Neither was the ultimate amazing armour of fanboy imagination.

[Trithemius]

Thank you!

I hope this succeeds where my Monty Python references have failed.

[Geoffrey S]

I'm presuming you mean this (http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10293), ThiudareiksGunthigg? Just so people know what it is you're referring to.

Though in the spirit of debate, what I'm curious about is why LS went out of fashion after the romans, whereas mail armour was still used. Is it a case of limited resources being pooled at the top end of hierarchies, where they'd get the best armour?

One thing to bear in mind in any case is that although LS may have been inferior in some ways to LH, it was easier to mass-produce. The reason this is important is that lower quality armour is preferable to no armour at all, and the faster production would allow more legionaries decent protection in the field. The infrastructure of the empire would allow a greater proportion of the troops to be allocated such equipment, which would be a marked advantage against other peoples.

[Trithemius]

The above list can also be used to guess why segmentata was phased out. This occurred arond the same time that the state was taking over control of the fabricae. Mail has many advantages that the state would find favourable and if mass production techniques dropped the cost of mail down so that it was comparable to segmentata, the state would have no reason to continue segmentata production.

The above quote is from that other forum. I am curious about the dates to which he refers, and also what kind of data is available on Roman manufacturing processes; as someone keen on archival studies are there resources like this for the Republic and Empire?

[Ebusitanus]

If anybody wants REALLY to know something about the real field tested differences between the Lorica Hamatta and the Segmentata he could start by checking out this place dealing precisely with the great inacuracies said here:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10293&highlight=

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Heard about this thread over on the Roman Army Talk board, and figured that since photos and information from my website are being posted here (that's a *good* thing!), I might chip in. I am Matthew Amt, founder and Commander of the Twentieth Legion, based in the Washington DC area. I don't want to proclaim myself as an "expert" on the topic, but I have some experience, and can contribute a few tidbits that seem to have been missed. Hopefully I didn't read through this discussion too hastily!

To start off with, the lorica segmentata was certainly in use during the reign of Augustus. The earliest known finds date to around 10 BC, so it must have been in use at least a little before then. Several indisputable pieces have been found at the Teutoberg Forest battle site at Kalkriese, so it was solidly in use by 9 AD.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/kalklor.html

The latest types of lorica segmentata date to about 225 AD or so. Again, it's very hard to put an exact date on that, and it undoubtedly faded out of use over a number of years.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/newstlor.html
http://www.loricasegmentata.org/

There have been LONG discussions on several boards over just why the lorica segmentata went out of use. Suffice it to say that it does *not* seem to be simply a matter of "lost technology" or the decline of the Empire in general. Some of those who know more about the Late Empire than I do have maintained that the army of the 3rd century was just coming to its height in several ways, not degrading at all. It was much larger than in the first century, yet still clearly well trained and disciplined. And the third century is technically the first time that Roman troops are outright issued their armor, and that armor is being made at centralized factories around the Empire (not in smaller local workshops or in the forts themselves as in the first and second centuries). So it's possible that mail took over completely partly because it is much easier to mass produce in sizes that will fit all the troops. But we honestly don't know for certain, and should not act as if we have all the answers.

About the lorica segmentata itself, there are indeed some girdle plate pieces (the bands that encircle the torso) that are 0.7 mm thick. However, that is the minimum thickness known. The collar sections and shoulder guards are typically thicker, around a mm or so--I believe the original Newstead breastplate is a good 1.2 mm, if I'm remembering correctly. (It is analyzed in an article in the Proceedings of the Roman Military Equipment Conference from a good 15 years ago.) However, I'm a little puzzled by folks who say that a spear will go right through even a 0.7 mm segmentata plate! Certainly no piece of armor is proof against everything, but I really doubt that most spear thrusts are going to penetrate iron that thick (or thin!). There are lorica plates that have holes, but those that I've seen just don't seem to be battle damage. Now, I'm not about to stand there in a lorica that thick and just allow a raging barbarian to plant a two-handed pike or battle axe on me to prove the point! Battles were not like that, however, and usually armor was considered more than adequate if it kept off all the nicks, chips, slices, and half-hearted jabs that would be very common. Many of those could kill you quickly or slowly if you had no protection, so even thin metal was worth it.

There seems to be much concern over the gaps between the plates of a lorica. Those at center front, caused by the angle of the breastplates, are indeed annoying, while they are common on reconstructions, it seems they were not a problem on the originals. Most repros get a lot of angled stress on the straps and buckles, since they are always riveted solidly in place horizontally and vertically. But the original pieces never show this kind of stress, so their plates must have hung vertically, not at an angle. The problem is that this is a very complicated part of the armor to build properly, and I think we don't understand all the complexities. Changing any dimension has all kinds of unforseen repercussions! Shoulder padding makes a big difference as well. But even if there were little gaps here and there, I wouldn't worry about them. The largest is no bigger than your finger, really, and if you are good enough with a spear to hit that, you're much more likely to strike at the neck or face! If these little gaps really seem like a problem, you're more than welcome to not wear armor at all, eh? (Oh, and I left the scarf off in that photo, so that it would not obscure the armor.)

Likewise, the external leather straps are no big deal. The chances of one getting cut are very remote, and the armor will not fall off even if they are cut.

The idea of thrusting a blade up between the plates is no good either, I'm afraid. I do it to myself all the time, in fact! The dagger has to go in vertically, and it simply slides up flat inside the plates, not even tearing my subarmalis or tunic. And in order to do that, you'd have to be inside my shield--again, much better to go for the groin or throat, at that range.

Keep in mind that a man wearing this armor is not going to stand and let you get these ideal shots at him, in any case. He'll be charging with his left side forward, shield up, with only his eyes showing between helmet and shield rim. In the resulting melee, sure, there may be more opportunities to connect, but the whole idea of armor is to limit the attacker's options. IF you get a perfect, full-force, square-on hit, it MIGHT go through the armor, but it might not! Wanna bet your life on it? Or just go for one of the unarmored spots? That's going to apply to the vast majority of combat. There are always exceptions and exceptional circumstances, but there's no point in trying to plan for all of them.

In fact, a philosophy I came up with is that armor is given to soldiers for two reasons: So that they'll have something heavy to wear; and So they'll have something to clean. Every once in a great while, they might get into a situation where someone might take a prod at them with something sharp, and the armor could keep that from hurting the wearer, but that's purely a side effect!

Obviously, that's a little facetious, but not entirely. For all we know, the great benefit of the lorica segmentata was simply that it could be polished up to look good, and that the soldiers could always be kept busy with polishing their brass fittings.

Wigferth, I have the feeling that most experienced armor people would indeed classify the lorica segmentata as a type of plate armor. They might call it "segmented" or "articulated", and they would certainly not confuse it with later medieval Gothic or other plate armor. But I do think "plate" of some sort is what they'd mostly think. I was a little perplexed by your explanation of how lorica plates absorb impact, and I confess I haven't gone back and re-read it. But with a lorica plate or any other larger one, the weapon hits the metal, and the force of the blow is spread over a larger area. On a large plate it might simply be spread over the whole chest, while on a lorica it might be spread to other plates that the first one overlaps. But it seems to me that the general effect is the same, the weapon and its impact don't get through entirely to the wearer. Bottom line, it works. (Usually!) There is obviously a lot of complicated physics going on, but I'm not a physics person. Just fair warning that you may be on lonely ground in your definition of "plate".

WAS the lorica segmentata unreasonbly complicated and a pain in the gluteus to maintain? You bet! People seemed concerned about the leathers, which will indeed get sweaty and rotten and break. But in the time that it's taken me to break 3 internal leathers, I've busted 5 of the 8 main hinges, 2 strap and buckle fittings, and 3 hooks. And like most other reconstructions, the brass fittings on my lorica are actually significantly THICKER than the originals! Darn things broke all the time, and it was probably just day-to-day wear and tear that did it, not necessarily battle damage. It's starting to look like anyone who got issued a lorica that wasn't new got a mix of different sections that pretty much fit together and had plenty of repairs. But for two and a half centuries, that just doesn't seem to have bothered the Romans enough to do much about it! The latest versions of the lorica are MORE ornate than the first ones! Honking big fancy hinges, brass edgings on the plates, pearled edges on fittings, etc. It's nutty.

There also seems to be a little too much faith in the endurance of a shirt of mail. Great stuff it definitely is, but it's surface area makes it MORE prone to rust than a lorica segmentata. The chafing action of mail does make it somewhat self-cleaning, but only to a certain extent. That chafing also means that your oil or grease coating is wearing off. And it means that the rings are constantly wearing and rubbing against each other, and after a few years that will make them thinner! I can't really tell you how long a shirt might last in more or less constant use, but it can't be as much as a century. The only comparison I can think of is the British soldier's musket of the 18th century. It was supposed to last 12 years in regular service, but they generally wore out after only 6 years because the constant cleaning thinned the barrels! Mind you, this would apply to a lorica segmentata as well, but I have a feeling that disintegrating fittings and leathers would be a terminal problem long before the metal wore thin.

There does seem to be some debate about the metallurgy of rivets. Bishop and Coulston's book "Roman Military Equipment" says that rivets tend to be 10 to 15 percent zinc, while other folks have claimed only 5 percent. It certainly varied, and all we can really say is that it tended to be a lower zinc content than the fittings (which ran around 20 percent, very general ballpark). This was more likely just to make them a little easier to install. If they were really concerned about removing them, they would have found a better way to put the darn thing together in the first place! Copper rivets are noticeably softer than brass, but they are definitely strong enough to do the job. Removing a brass one doesn't really take any longer than removing a copper one--it's a pain either way!

I'm a little curious as to why folks think that a lorica segmentata can not be worn on horseback? I haven't actually tried it (INFANTRY!!), but I can sit astride a bench or chair in a horseman-like manner while wearing mine, without any problem. It's flexible, yes? It doesn't go down to where my legs bend. Yes, lorica parts are indeed found on sites that are presumed to be auxiliary forts. But it is only an assumption that any garrison was homogenous, and there is at least some evidence that any fort could have both auxiliaries and legionaries posted in it at the same time. Many other armies through the centuries have mixed different units in a garrison, and we have no real reason to believe the Romans didn't do that. On the other hand, there is also reason to suspect that the line between "legionary" and "auxiliary" equipment was blurrier than we used to think, so it's entirely possible that some auxiliaries were wearing lorica segmentata. Complicated issue, and as always we simply don't know enough to be sure.

The noise of any armor was usually not an issue. With thousands of men marching along, the dust cloud would be visible for miles, hours before the army came within earshot. There are accounts of troops muffling their armor and noisy bits for some special operation, but those are not the norm.

Oh, someone also though that you can't sling your shield on your back while wearing a segmentata. Well, I've done it, and so have many other people, though there is much debate over the best way to do it.

Using the experience of reenactors in a discussion like this is obviously a good thing. Just be forwarned that we don't all agree! We go through the same or similar situations and come up with completely different conclusions, all the time! We'll cheerfully bicker for hours about the relative merits of mail versus segmentata, why one and not the other, why who when what how, you name it. The Ermine Street Guard is the oldest Roman unit in existence, but there is a growing number of other very respectable groups out there, some of whom are breaking new ground in experimental archeology and living history. All I can say is, keep listening to all of them, and be prepared to run into new facts that ruin all your theories! (I love it when that happens!)

Hopefully I've done more than question the answers, here! As a final word, much as I like my lorica, I am deeply baffled by it. Folks ask me why they didn't scrap it for mail, and I simply don't have an answer. Nor can I say why they ditched it in the 3rd century! It's a brilliant and frustrating piece. And yes, any good mailshirt IS more comfortable! But 26 years ago, it was the look of the lorica segmentata that got me started on Roman reenacting.

Feel free to hit me with any questions, though you might want to email me directly in case I don't get back to this forum very soon.

Enjoy, and Valete,

Matthew Amt, aka Quintus, Legio XX

mamt AT lrcm DOT usuhs DOT mil

[Corinthian Hoplite]

In my humble opinion the segmentata has three advantages over the hamata:
1-The pauldrons(shoulder guards), those are more effective than anything that has been created prior to the middle-ages.
2-It's lighter.
3-It looks better (in my opinion).

Disadvantages:
1-Weak against stabs(particularly of spears).
2-Requires constant maintenance.
3-Hard to repair.

Conclusion: Both have advantages and disadvantages so.....it's up to the person to decide wich one to wear.

Peace:2thumbsup:

[Markus_Aurelius]

Wow this thread has gone off topic since my first post......

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

At this point I think I should explain my somewhat, shall we say, fanatical, defence of mail. Its just that we get posts every other week it seems about how LS is the greatest thing since fermented grain and how it should be in the mod. I got sick of it, snapped, and instead of the usual, "It wasn't actually that great, they weren't really using it yet." I went overboard.

At this point I would like to acknowledge my mistakes.

1. I was wrong about the date of introduction, that said I don't believe the armour would have been in widespread use then. Having gone back and rechecked my books I think I got my mental "ball park" figures the wrong side of 0 AD. OOPS.

2. I misspoke about the way the Lorica Segmentata absorbs damage. What I was trying to illustrate was that Gothic plate was radically different. Perhaps I took it a bit too far there..... I should have been more clear about the fact that they both dissipate the damage around the armour, albeit in a slightly different way.

3. Okay, so I picked the thinest girdle plates to illustrate my point, so shoot me.

4. I confess I went a bit overboard with some my statements. I would like to make the following ammendments.

A. You can wear a shield on your back, however the plates can rub away the lining on the shield on a long march, which is quite a problem.

B. I did not make clear that copper rivits were actually better, because they were easier to replace, that was my intent.

C. At no point did I intend to actually say that LS was useless and after my full-force first blast I did mitigate it somewhat with the second paragraph. In-fact I acknoledged the superioety of LS in deally with blunt trauma throughout. I now go on record as retacting the statement "Its the worst armour ever."

D. The spear anecdote, which is what it is, comes from a friend and you would have to take it up with him. I would think it highly possible with a two-handed thrust, but not certain.

E. 100 years would be an outside figure for mail endurance, with good care and maintainance. Theoretically, of course, mail could last forever if you replaced all the rings.

5. Ultimately I got carried away. As a result I was too forceful in my statements and reading them back they do sound arrogant, they also have typing errors, which change the meaning of some of them, see above.

--------------------------------------------------

With that out of the way:

NeoSpartan: I am a second year degree student studying Classics and English at Exeter University. I am also a member of the Devon Archeological Society, the University Archeological Society and the Council For British Archeaology. My particular interest is the Roman Army in Britain.

So don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because while I don't know everything I know a great deal.

[Matthew Amt]

Ave, Wigferth!

Very graciously done! My respect for you has grown. But you'll never make it as a professional historian--they NEVER apologize or retract statements, hee hee!

On your point #1, I pretty much agree!

--A. Honestly, I haven't done any long-range marching. The lengths of time I've spent with my shield slung have been relatively short, but didn't seem at all uncomfortable. No idea about the potential for damage, it's certainly possible. Might be a problem with a mailshirt rubbing the shield, as well, though--think giant Brillo pad... (Try a quick rub on your car!)

--D. Fair enough. I wouldn't want to stand still and let someone give me a full-force two-handed thrust with a spear or pike. But spears were usually one-handed weapons. The Macedonian pike had pretty much died out in the 2nd century BC, and I don't think the two-handed Persian cavalry kontos was around just yet.

--E. Hah, well a lorica segmentata will survive for ever if you keep replacing the plates, leathers, and fittings! Fair is fair, eh?

I realize you're not "giving up the fight" and don't expect you to, but again, thanks for being gracious about it.

Corinthian Hoplite, I'm still curious about the idea that the lorica segmentata is "weak against stabs (particularly of spears)". Can you give me some particular concerns? It's especially ironic since "common knowledge" long maintained that MAIL was vulnerable to thrusts and that plate far superior in that regard. We now know that mail is not nearly as "weak" as we used to think, but it's odd to see the argument doing a complete 180, as it were.

Valete,

Matthew

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ave, Imperator!

(I think thats appropriate, since you trump the lot of us.)

Mathew, have you read: The Roman Legions Recreated in Colour Photographs by Daniel Peterson?

A: Its a really good book, the first one I seriously read infact. He details several living history experiments. The conclusion there was that mail isn't a problem for a shield on a long march, but LS is.

D: Were such a thing to happen I think I'd rather wear mail. I can be fairly certain the mail won't break. I can think of plenty of instances when a barbarian would go for a two handed thrust, once you stuck a pilum through his shield for instance.

E: True, but you no mail lasts longer anyway. :2thumbsup:

As to my ability to retract statements. I have serious problems with the way knowledge is compartmentalised and entrenched these days. I find that anyone who is unwilling to alter his position is usually ignorant, in direct proportion to his stubbornness.

Oh, and for anyone who is reading this from the other boards. I find your willingness to look down on us lesser mortals quite amusing.

[Markus_Aurelius]

I personally believe the mail would have been better as it did last a significantly longer time than the Segementata did, but, this thread has nothing to do with Segementata or mail. These arguments are getting absolutely know where, but i urge you to start your own thread and continue your arguments there if you wish to keep arguing...

[QwertyMIDX]

--D. Fair enough. I wouldn't want to stand still and let someone give me a full-force two-handed thrust with a spear or pike. But spears were usually one-handed weapons. The Macedonian pike had pretty much died out in the 2nd century BC, and I don't think the two-handed Persian cavalry kontos was around just yet.

The 2-handed kontos was in use well before the introduction of LS, although obviously not by the Romans themselves. Still, even though romans spent a good amount of time stabbing each other it would be the arms of their opponets that would be the issue. The Parthians certinly were using the kontos against romans soliders before the introduction of LS, but perhaps this is just another reason LH remained the standard armor in the east while LS became more and more common in the west.

[Reverend Joe]

If you continue this conversation,
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2355/jesuseatsababygg0.jpg
Jesus will eat a baby.

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4408/angrybabymanthingdo3.jpg
Please, think of the babies.

[cunctator]

The Parthians certinly were using the kontos against romans soliders before the introduction of LS, but perhaps this is just another reason LH remained the standard armor in the east while LS became more and more common in the west.

I doubt either LS or LH would be of much use against a direct contus hit from a charging parthian horseman. Arrows were probably their major concern in the east.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Don't you just love these never-ending threads.

I've said everything I wanted to say, I'm bowing out now.

[QwertyMIDX]

I doubt either LS or LH would be of much use against a direct contus hit from a charging parthian horseman. Arrows were probably their major concern in the east.


Haha, yeah that's certinly true, at least via a charge.

[econ21]

If you continue this conversation...

Oh come on, relax. This kind of informed, arcane debate over military history is the main reason some of us come to the EB forum (aside from checking our forlorn hope that 0.8 may be out).

[NeoSpartan]

:dizzy2: WOW I though this thread was dead, I got like a whole page to read! :dizzy2:

[NeoSpartan]

Man, i just check the forum where all those Re-anctors talk. I am gonna try to get some more of them to share some of thier knowlege. :book:

[Reverend Joe]

Oh come on, relax. This kind of informed, arcane debate over military history is the main reason some of us come to the EB forum (aside from checking our forlorn hope that 0.8 may be out).
I thought that the Jesus eating a baby picture would make it kinda clear, but... that was joke spam.

[Markus_Aurelius]

LOL. already i have taken your minds off the debate/Argument.

[NeoSpartan]

LOL. already i have taken your minds off the debate/Argument.

Well i am now reading on the Roman Legion Talk forums and checking the sources those guys put up. Its REALLY good info. I really recommend it.