Just a very minor issue...

[Randarkmaan]

This is just a very minor issue that sort of irritated me (not just in EB, in basically all RTW mods as well as vanilla RTW) and I thought I should bring up. Why is it that southern Europeans in EB (Romans and other Italians, Iberians, Greeks) are just as light-skinned as northern europeans in EB (Gauls, Germans, etc.)? If any of you have ever been to any of those countries you will realize that nearly everyone are tan (sun-tanned that is), why is it not so in games or mods such as this?
Just bringing this up because I feel that it would make the mod a little more authentic... Don't you agree?

Just realized that some of the lower tier greek troops have a tanned skintone (toxotai, akontistai) what about the other greek troops, any logic behind them not having this skintone?

[Fondor_Yards]

Too much time inside studying greek "logic"? Or all that heavy armour stops the sunlight from getting in. Maybe back then skin tones were all pretty much the same in the region. *well probably that if it's any of those*.

And why would they have a better tan then the northern europeans, like the celts,getai,germans? They would probably spend at least the same amount of time outside.

Also, probably, it is just overlooked by most/all people. There might not be a whole lot of historic scores on this subject. I know I've never thought about it before...:sweatdrop:

[Earl of Sandwich]

Everyone knows the true reason is because back then, the noble Greco-Roman race wasn't "diluted" by genetically inferior strains coming from North Africa, and thus, their skin is of a proper light tone, rather than the tainted swarthy color seen nowadays. I mean, c'mon, this is common sense here!!!!!:dizzy2:

[Randarkmaan]

And why would they have a better tan then the northern europeans, like the celts,getai,germans? They would probably spend at least the same amount of time outside.


Well nowadays they do have a better tan than Northern Europeans, so it doesen't really make sense that they would not back then, I'm also pretty sure that Southern Europeans have an easier time getting tan.


Everyone knows the true reason is because back then, the noble Greco-Roman race wasn't "diluted" by genetically inferior strains coming from North Africa, and thus, their skin is of a proper light tone, rather than the tainted swarthy color seen nowadays. I mean, c'mon, this is common sense here!!!!!

The funny thing is that many people actually think this is the truth...

[Earl of Sandwich]

Yes, quite idiotic, but as long as their numbers are small, they are little more than entertainment.

[-Praetor-]

It`s all about the radiation the people receive that determines the amount of melanine, and thus the pigmentation.

Since the people in northern europe commonly were heavily dressed in order to withstand the cold climate, and the people on southern europe wore lighther clothes in order to be more comfortable, or no clothes inthe upper torso at all, the amount of radiation received by those peoples was substantially different. Also there is the thing of the differences of the cloud cover in those areas and such.

That`s it. Pure logic.

[Avicenna]

Well, Randarkaan, keep this in mind. You can't just assume that the same ethnic groups resided in the same places as they do now 2000 years ago. Migrations are very common.

[Randarkmaan]

Well, you can't assume that they didn't either I think it's safer to make most peoples look much like what they do today. Also read what k_raso said:


Since the people in northern europe commonly were heavily dressed in order to withstand the cold climate, and the people on southern europe wore lighther clothes in order to be more comfortable, or no clothes inthe upper torso at all, the amount of radiation received by those peoples was substantially different. Also there is the thing of the differences of the cloud cover in those areas and such.


Because of this increased amount of radiation their skin pigments adopted to the this and as a result their skin darkens faster when there is strong sun...

[Trithemius]

Well, you can't assume that they didn't either I think it's safer to make most peoples look much like what they do today.

Safer? :inquisitive:

[Tuuvi]

I'm not sure if this is how it was during the period EB takes place in, but back in the day light skin tone was considered better looking and was a symbol of status in a way. Maybe this is why the lower tier troops, who would have been farmers etc, have darker skin tones, while the higher quality troops,who would have been richer, have lighter skin tones. That's just my guess.

[Avicenna]

Well, you can't assume that they didn't either I think it's safer to make most peoples look much like what they do today. Also read what k_raso said:





If you see a blond haired native in modern day Iran, please take the effort to point him out to me.

Foreigners living there on the payroll of news agencies don't count.

[Randarkmaan]

Blondism (light hair, light eyes and light skin) is naturally occuring among all humans, and does not necessarily mean blond hair and blue eyes, also many have blue eyes and blond hair as babies which later becomes darker. There are both Arabs and Iranians who have blue eyes and light brown hair. And where do you get that thing that light skin was considered prettier? Also the only way those higher tier troops would have been able to have very light skin would be if they seldom were outside or wore very much clothing, which most know people like the Greeks and Romans did not do because it was very hot, also what were they supposed to do inside?
Also on a different note ancient greeks were not very impressed by people from the north who had blue eyes and blond hair (nearly all Greeks have and had dark hair and dark eyes)

[Zastrow]

I don't wish to be rude but I think EB team has bigger fish to fry than delving into the sensitive issues of race. They make all the Romans darker skinned, next we'll have Italians on the forum posting how EB portrayed them badly and posting mug shots of themselves.

The skin color is fine for me, Its not that critical. After all they are all automatons to do my bidding and die, doesn't matter what color they are, as long as they die well!

[Musopticon?]

Automatons! What dribble is that?! My gaesatae have feelings and needs, that's why I only face them against the most petite of Greek boys.

Have some sympathy, you poor sir.

[Persian Horseman]

I have seen quite a few blue/green/semi-blue eyed iranians. they might have mixed with other races long time ago, but im saying its not impossible. it does happen.

the way i see it,

northern europeans: lighter skin, blond (or blondish), blue eyed
southern europe: still white skin but darker than northerners, black hair, dark eyes
north africa and middle east: darker skins, black hair, dark eyes
(have to take into account that things in north africa and middle east might have changed quite a bit after the muslim conquest)

and why they dont show the greeks and romans and the spanish as darker people?

possible answers:

1. cant be bothered doing the skins
2. cuz they guy who designed them saw them as white people in hollywood movies (oh yeah and they speak english too:sweatdrop: )
3. mostly europeans and americans will be playing them.probably the biggest market is US, which they like to see the good guys i.e. romans and greeks as white as possible.
4. sth is wrong with our eyes and we cant see right
5. i cant believe u r actually reading what im writing = P

[Trithemius]

I'm still wondering about why it would be "safer"? Are ethnic integrity people preparing to raid EB HQ because of the skin-tones on some of their models?

[Elthore]

whoever said white is considered more beatiful is full of dung

herodotus mentions several times that the ethiopians were considered the most beautiful in the world

not saying that they considered dark skin more beautiful, but at least the first statement is clearly false

[Randarkmaan]

I did not mean "safer" in the security sense I mean't safer in the sense that it is "safer" to assume that ancient Greeks look like modern Greeks. And they do have darker skin than northern europeans, together with Italians, Spanish people and other southern Europeans.


northern europeans: lighter skin, blond (or blondish), blue eyed

actually the most common hair colour is brown and not brown, and I think there is an equal amount of blue- and brown-eyed people, with a green-eyed minority (me beingo one of them).

Anyway to just repeat my proposition: Simply give southern Europeans tanned skin, I mean even most Scandinavians get a fairly good tan (though not as good) after a couple of weeks in Spain, Greece or Italy (or any other country with alot of sun).


whoever said white is considered more beatiful is full of shit

herodotus mentions several times that the ethiopians were considered the most beautiful in the world

not saying that they considered dark skin more beautiful, but at least the first statement is clearly false

An intersting thing is also that many Greeks (or atleast many chroniclers and other people who wrote) considered blond hair and blue eyes the mark of a coward...

[Myrddraal]

The closer you are to the equator, the more intense the UV radiation due to the tilting of the earths axis. So if you're in the northern hemisphere, generally speaking, the further south you go, the darker the skin.

[QwertyMIDX]

I mean't safer in the sense that it is "safer" to assume that ancient Greeks look like modern Greeks.


Unfortunatly most modern greeks don't look all that much like ancient greeks. The mass migrations that marked the late roman period and early dark ages pretty much redrew the ethnic map.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

whoever said white is considered more beatiful is full of shit

herodotus mentions several times that the ethiopians were considered the most beautiful in the world

not saying that they considered dark skin more beautiful, but at least the first statement is clearly false
"Several times"? Interesting. Where are those several times? Here's a hint: he says it at 3.20. He says that they "are said to be the tallest and best-looking people in the world. Their laws and customs are peculiar to themselves, and the strangest is the method they have of choosing for their king the man whom they judge to be the tallest and strong in proportion to his height." In no way would I say or think the people he calls "Aithiopians" are *not* the most beautiful, but he points it out to show that that is how they pick their king. Herodotos surely had seen many Aithiopians while in Egypt, but he certainly didn't go up the Nile very far.

The Greeks clearly thought that white skin was more beautiful for their women (just as it is prized today and has been for centuries by the Chinese and Japanese and Koreans). But the reasons are complex and not just "cause it wuz purtier", but also entwined with ideas of women living inside the home and not working outside in the sun (at least for the Greeks - I'm not sure why the Asians prize it so). That didn't matter with men of course (well, I can't say it definitely didn't - but men who have more liesure time don't spend it stretched out sunning on a rock, they are more likely to be in the shade than a farmer or laborer of some other type would, and we all know that upper classes generally have more ability to set standards of beauty through the much higher degree of control they had over art/artistic depictions, whether they ought to do it or not). But the Greeks were all about moderation in virtually everything, and they thought that their moderate climates (compared with the cold to the north and the heat to the south) were just right and that it led to men in the north and south having extremes in skin color and hair types and other customs. (edit: then again, which culture or ethnicity *doesn't* generally think that the "other" or outsiders are uglier or weaker or worse in any number of areas? All peoples are naturally protective of their own and therefore prejudiced against outsiders. Another reason why 'naturally' isn't always best maybe :grin:)

I'm not arguing for any changes or any pattern or anything, but indeed many of the Greeks (esp. upper classes) *did* think whiter was more beautiful in some regards. And if anyone thinks that is my belief, then you obviously know nothing of my own preferences. :laugh4:

[Elthore]

He mentions it in book2 when he describes the ethiopians and the lower part of the nile, and again in book3. I dont recall him mentioning that their king is chosen for his beauty, but merely his height.
There is another piece in book2 where he is talking about an egyptian woman(royalty i believe) and mentions how beautiful she was.

Im from Turkey and currently live in Canada. I realize that theres been a lot of racial mixing but one thing i'd like to point out: by about spring time, im very pale, my skin is very white. But after about a week in the sun(not tanning or anything, just being outside) during august my colour will go from that pale white to a light brown very quickly. My point is, that you cant really nail a skin colour for a certain type of people, i think whats more important is their lifestyle like Teleksos pointed out.

Units like levies should probably have a darker skin colour, whereas the more elite cavarly and bodyguard units should have thier current 'white' skin.

[Trithemius]

Personally, I think it would be safer to go back to arguing about Spartan cloaks. ;)

I think, in addition to the problems of researching authoritative accounts of ancient skintones, that perhaps the efforts of the EB team are better spent in expanding their content base rather than in re-colouring a lot of units. I sort of see your point Elthore, but I am not sure how what you are proposing could be done without irritating someone and without distraction from (in my opinion) more important areas (i.e. basically everything else).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Very true Trithemius. The skinners generally have nothing to do with these arguments, but I really think they have done a great job overall on establishing a sort of relative shading of the different peoples from India to Ireland without getting into any heated discussions or things like that. And going back to them is something we'd rather not do unless there is some really serious problem.