Chavez Runs for Re-Election

[Ice]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208093,00.html


Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez launched his campaign for a third straight term on Saturday, dismissing his opponents as pawns of a Washington plan to discredit the December election and destabilize Venezuela.



Chavez dismissed all the other candidates as tools of the U.S. government, which he frequently accuses of planning to invade. "All the candidates that until now have appeared are candidates of the right, of the counterrevolution and, I'd even say, of the U.S. empire," he said. Accusing the opposition of an "imperialist plan" to boycott the election and undermine the electoral process, he warned that he was preparing a social and political "counterattack."

So, pretty much anyone who disagrees with me is a US Tool. Oh, that's logical. Almost sounds like DA with liberals ~;)




"You can be sure they'll regret it," he said, without elaborating. Chavez has previously said that if opposition parties boycott the vote, he would call a referendum on ending term limits — a move that could allow him to serve past 2012.

That's a bid disturbing, but I couldn't say I didn't think he was capable of pulling this.

[Big_John]

sounds like basically every despot anywhere ever. have his political enemies started "disappearing" yet?

that said, i'd be surprised if the US didn't have people working in venezuela to overthrow chavez in some fashion.

if that fails, maybe this can be a battlefield 20 or so years down the line, when we need a new war.

[Marshal Murat]

Aha, that explains EVERYTHING.
All the Democrats are Islamic Fundamentalist pawns, and to protect America, let's end term limits!

If the people are so jaded by this threat of American imperial and colonializm, they deserve to be ruler by a dictator.

[Aenlic]

sounds like basically every despot anywhere ever. have his political enemies started "disappearing" yet?

that said, i'd be surprised if the US didn't have people working in venezuela to overthrow chavez in some fashion.

if that fails, maybe this can be a battlefield 20 or so years down the line, when we need a new war.

We already tried to help overthrow him once. Instead we just made him more popular. I don't think we'd try again, at least not so blatantly.

I doubt we'll go to war down there. At least, it's highly unlikely as long as we're addicted to Venezuela's oil. Sadly, our need for his oil gives Chavez a platform from which to spew nonsense. His status as the leader of one of the leading oil exporting countries gives him a more equal standing on the world bluster stage with that other spouter of nonsense, GWB - leader of the world's leading oil importing country.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Here that JAG, your idol might be made permanent. ~;p

[Xiahou]

Pfft, the only way he's leaving office is in a coffin. He's in for life, barring some sort of coup d'etat.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I predict a landslide victory for him in this election. And any election after that.

I also predict JAG will heap praise on his favorite dictator (Castro's through) for another great triumph of the will and how the increased poverty rate has helped the people of Venezuela.

Crazed Rabbit

[scotchedpommes]

His own concern for his security is natural, considering the coup attempt. It
would be unrealistic to assume that there isn't a good deal of external effort
being put into shifting him even now.

[doc_bean]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208093,00.html

So, pretty much anyone who disagrees with me is a US Tool. Oh, that's logical. Almost sounds like DA with liberals ~;)



Pretty standard rethoric, Bush has played the with-us-or-against-us card a few times too. Other US presidents have done similar things (the war against communism anyone ?).





"You can be sure they'll regret it," he said, without elaborating. Chavez has previously said that if opposition parties boycott the vote, he would call a referendum on ending term limits — a move that could allow him to serve past 2012.

That's a bid disturbing, but I couldn't say I didn't think he was capable of pulling this.

A boycott often leads to civil war (look at how well the Iraq boycott turned out), making sure one doesn't happen is the sensible plan.

[Don Corleone]

We didn't stage a coup. We pointed out voting irregularities and called for a new election. That hardly qualifies as a junta in my book.

The guy's in for life. Anybody dumb enough to run against him is going to get locked away in some tomb in Caracas and have 500Volts applied liberally to delicate parts of the body for the next few years. Maybe a limb broken every couple of weeks, just to keep it intersting.

[Fragony]

The guy's in for life.

Yup, a more apropiate title would have been 'Chavez runs elections'.

[doc_bean]

We didn't stage a coup. We pointed out voting irregularities and called for a new election. That hardly qualifies as a junta in my book.

What election doesn't have those ? *cough*Florida 2000 *cough*


The guy's in for life. Anybody dumb enough to run against him is going to get locked away in some tomb in Caracas and have 500Volts applied liberally to delicate parts of the body for the next few years. Maybe a limb broken every couple of weeks, just to keep it intersting.

I'm not really that informed on the matter, but isn't Chavez usually pretty nice to his opponents ? Didn't he already release the people who staged the last coup ?

[scotchedpommes]

I'm not really that informed on the matter, but isn't Chavez usually pretty nice to his opponents ? Didn't he already release the people who staged the last coup ?

Oh, but don't expect the Americans here to mention that. That the US could
have had involvement in the coup is obviously absurd. The US has never had
its hands on South America, no.

[Ironside]

We didn't stage a coup. We pointed out voting irregularities and called for a new election. That hardly qualifies as a junta in my book.


It was more of approving a coup. The question is how much...
There's enough meat on the bones for him to have a point in his rethoric against the US, but most of his opposition comes from the inside of Venezuela.
The Chavez vs the opposition issue is blurry though, the easiest thing to say is that Chavez is winning that one.

The questions that really would need an answer are:
Would Chavez step down if the country was better off without him?
Would the country be better off without him today?
Is Chavez running the country well in the long term?
All questions is responded by doubtful IMO.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It was more of approving a coup. The question is how much...
There's enough meat on the bones for him to have a point in his rethoric against the US, but most of his opposition comes from the inside of Venezuela.
The Chavez vs the opposition issue is blurry though, the easiest thing to say is that Chavez is winning that one.

The questions that really would need an answer are:
1. Would Chavez step down if the country was better off without him?
2. Would the country be better off without him today?
3. Is Chavez running the country well in the long term?
All questions is responded by doubtful IMO.

Nice Questions.

1. Like many who exercise power, Chavez probably cannot conceive that it might be. He views himself as a crusader against the exceseses of the past and remains convinced that bad times will return without him. It takes ego to step up in politics, and such egos rarely admit of personal irrelevance.

2. Probably not. He has provided hope for so many of the poor that his removal would likely engnder civil war. Juan Peron was such a hero to the people.

3. Probably not. As with far too many of the Middle Eastern OPEC nations, the oil revenues are not being plowed back into infrastructure development and used to develop a varied economy. His apologists will point out -- correctly -- that his plowing the oil money into socialist support programs serves the people better than the old system (siphoning it off to pad Cayman and Swiss private accounts), but it does not seem likely to produce long term benefits. However valuable, the oil in Venuz. is not eternal.


Thought item.

Corruption seems to be the biggest drawbck to development. Can any culture that embraces and/or condones corruption truly develop economically? Or is the only result an endless cycle of pilferage and (depending on culture) terrorist extremism or socialist revolution?

[Pannonian]

3. Probably not. As with far too many of the Middle Eastern OPEC nations, the oil revenues are not being plowed back into infrastructure development and used to develop a varied economy. His apologists will point out -- correctly -- that his plowing the oil money into socialist support programs serves the people better than the old system (siphoning it off to pad Cayman and Swiss private accounts), but it does not seem likely to produce long term benefits. However valuable, the oil in Venuz. is not eternal.

Ironically, some of the best usage the oil sees is precisely in these socialist programmes in conjunction with Cuba. Cuba gets preferential treatment, possibly x barrels of free oil, and they send their doctors and teachers to Venezuela in return. Cuba gets around the US embargo, Venezuela get better healthcare for its poor and the building blocks of what might become a middle class. Everyone's happy, except for the Americans whose enemies are strengthening each other.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How in heaven does that build a middle class?

Don't get me wrong, better health care for the poor has obvious benefits -- and not just politically. But keeping the poor alive can actually worsen the economic straits without something for them to aspire to.

Where in Chavez' programs do we see encouragement of entrepenurial endeavors? Assistance in development of roads/bridges/ports/commercial space? Assistance for professional degrees and job development?

If such programs exist, with a trend towards private ownership or assumption of control by private citizens, that would signal something different.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Big_John]sounds like basically every despot anywhere ever. have his political enemies started "disappearing" yet?

Not YET, but he was recently in Belorus and certainly learnt much from our little hitlerite Lukashenko.

I wouln't be so much suprised if he really decides to stay in office (or at least in power ) for the rest of his life.

With noone to controll him who can challenge that after all.:juggle2:

[Pannonian]

How in heaven does that build a middle class?

Education? If nothing else, Cuba excels in the socialist ideal of schoolsandhospitals, getting more bang for their buck than practically anyone else. The criticism of western and British in particular liberal socialism is that endless resources are poured into that double-headed deity. The Cubans get excellent results with next to no resources.



Don't get me wrong, better health care for the poor has obvious benefits -- and not just politically. But keeping the poor alive can actually worsen the economic straits without something for them to aspire to.

Where in Chavez' programs do we see encouragement of entrepenurial endeavors? Assistance in development of roads/bridges/ports/commercial space? Assistance for professional degrees and job development?

If such programs exist, with a trend towards private ownership or assumption of control by private citizens, that would signal something different.
You've ignored my mention of teachers, results of the pursuit of universal education. Before you can have all those modern capitalist developments, you first need a population who can read and write. Without that you will have a system that will inevitably veer towards extreme corruption as all power is concentrated in the hands of the educated ruling class, only to be brought down by a socialist revolution that will bring about a population that can read and write and thus pursue the happiness that is every man's right.

The revolution happened in Venezuela when they elected Chavez, who is fairly moderate as revolutionaries go (Castro was even more so). Remember things can always get worse if you intervene (eg. Iran and Mossadegh), and be thankful Chavez and no-one worse was elected.

[Pannonian]

We didn't stage a coup. We pointed out voting irregularities and called for a new election. That hardly qualifies as a junta in my book.

That was later. Before that, there was a military coup that removed Chavez and installed a pro-US government in its place. That coup lasted 3 days before popular uprisings put Chavez back in his place. The junta lasted only 3 days, yet the US managed to recognise it as a legitimate government during that time (IIRC no-one else did).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

A summary of the American newspaper coverage of the incident.


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1867

U.S. Papers Hail Venezuelan Coup as Pro-Democracy Move

4/18/02

When elements of the Venezuelan military forced president Hugo Chavez from office last week, the editorial boards of several major U.S. newspapers followed the U.S. government's lead and greeted the news with enthusiasm.

In an April 13 editorial, the New York Times triumphantly declared that Chavez's "resignation" meant that "Venezuelan democracy is no longer threatened by a would-be dictator." Conspicuously avoiding the word "coup," the Times explained that Chavez "stepped down after the military intervened and handed power to a respected business leader."

Calling Chavez "a ruinous demagogue," the Times offered numerous criticisms of his policies and urged speedy new elections, saying "Venezuela urgently needs a leader with a strong democratic mandate." A casual reader might easily have missed the Times' brief acknowledgement that Chavez did actually have a democratic mandate, having been "elected president in 1998."

The paper's one nod to the fact that military takeovers are not generally regarded as democratic was to note hopefully that with "continued civic participation," perhaps "further military involvement" in Venezuelan politics could be kept "to a minimum."

Three days later, Chavez had returned to power and the Times ran a second editorial (4/16/02) half-apologizing for having gotten carried away:

"In his three years in office, Mr. Chavez has been such a divisive and demagogic leader that his forced departure last week drew applause at home and in Washington. That reaction, which we shared, overlooked the undemocratic manner in which he was removed. Forcibly unseating a democratically elected leader, no matter how badly he has performed, is never something to cheer."


The Times stood its ground, however, on the value of a timely military coup for teaching a president a lesson, saying, "We hope Mr. Chavez will act as a more responsible and moderate leader now that he seems to realize the anger he stirred."

The Chicago Tribune's editorial board seemed even more excited by the coup than the New York Times'. An April 14 Tribune editorial called Chavez an "elected strongman" and declared: "It's not every day that a democracy benefits from the military's intervention to force out an elected president."

Hoping that Venezuela could now "move on to better things," the Tribune expressed relief that Venezuela's president was "safely out of power and under arrest." No longer would he be free to pursue his habits of "toasting Fidel Castro, flying to Baghdad to visit Saddam Hussein, or praising Osama bin Laden."

(FAIR called the Tribune to ask when Chavez had "praised" bin Laden. Columnist and editorial board member Steve Chapman, who wrote the editorial, said that in attempting to locate the reference for FAIR, he discovered that he had "misread" his source, a Freedom House report. Chapman said that if the Tribune could find no record of Chavez praising bin Laden, the paper would run a correction.)*

The Tribune stuck unapologetically to its pro-coup line even after Chavez had been restored to power. Chavez's return may have come as "good news to Latin American governments that had condemned his removal as just another military coup," wrote the Tribune in an April 16 editorial, "but that doesn't mean it's good news for democracy." The paper seemed to suggest that the coup would have been no bad thing if not for "the heavy-handed bungling of [Chavez's] successors."

Long Island's Newsday, another top-circulation paper, greeted the coup with an April 13 editorial headlined "Chavez's Ouster Is No Great Loss." Newsday offered a number of reasons why the coup wasn't so bad, including Chavez's "confrontational leadership style and left-wing populist rhetoric" and the fact that he "openly flaunted his ideological differences with Washington." The most important reason, however, was Chavez's "incompetence as an executive," specifically, that he was "mismanaging the nation's vast oil wealth."

After the coup failed, Newsday ran a follow-up editorial (4/16/02) which came to the remarkable conclusion that "if there is a winner in all this, it's Latin American democracy, in principle and practice." The incident, according to Newsday, was "an affirmation of the democratic process" because the coup gave "a sobering wake-up call" to Chavez, "who was on a path to subverting the democratic mandate that had put him in power three years ago."

The Los Angeles Times waited until the dust had settled (4/17/02) to run its editorial on "Venezuela's Strange Days." The paper was dismissive of Chavez's status as an elected leader-- saying "it goes against the grain to put the name Hugo Chavez and the word 'democracy' in the same sentence"-- but pointed out that "it's one thing to oppose policies and another to back a coup." The paper stated that by not adequately opposing the coup, "the White House failed to stay on the side of democracy," yet still suggested that in the long run, "Venezuela will benefit" if the coup teaches Chavez to reach out to the opposition "rather than continuing to divide the nation along class lines."

The Washington Post was one of the few major U.S. papers whose initial reaction was to condemn the coup outright. Though heavily critical of Chavez, the paper's April 14 editorial led with an affirmation that "any interruption of democracy in Latin America is wrong, the more so when it involves the military."

Curiously, however, the Washington Post took pains to insist that "there's been no suggestion that the United States had anything to do with this Latin American coup," even though details from Venezuela were still sketchy at that time. The New York Times, too, made a point of saying in its April 13 editorial that Washington's hands were clean, affirming that "rightly, his removal was a purely Venezuelan affair."

Ironically, news articles in both the Washington Post and the New York Times have since raised serious questions about whether the U.S. may in fact have been involved. Neither paper, however, has returned to the question on its editorial page.


*Note: On April 20, 2002, the Chicago Tribune ran the following correction: "An editorial on Sunday mistakenly said that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez had praised Osama bin Laden. The Tribune regrets the error."

[scotchedpommes]

[You assume that Don hasn't actually informed himself of the facts before
commenting? :dizzy2:]

Venezuela coup linked to Bush team (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html). Another article of note.

[JAG]

Where are the facts that all of you are using to discredit and bemoan Chavez?! Ah yes, you don't have any and havent presented any, just as normal then.

Chavez is making lasting, real and incredible change to the lives of the poor in the country he has been democratically elected in more times than GWB and in far more open and fair elections too.

Let us hope that he continues to gain election and a mandate to continue his reforms and progression and to call Chavez a dictator is to call every other democratically elected leader a dictator too.

[Tribesman]

OK Jag , What are your views on the long term effects of the price fixing on agricultural products when coupled with the land appropriation and re-distribution before the proper education program is in place ?

[Hepcat]

Acoording to Wikipedia Chavez has entailed the launching of massive government anti-poverty initiatives, the construction of thousands of free medical clinics for the poor, the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate, and the enactment of food and housing subsidies. There have been marked improvements in the infant mortality rate between 1998 and 2006.

If this is the case then why shouldn't he be re-elected? It is not as though he has a policy of conquering any neighbouring countries.

I think he has been re-elected because he has been a good leader. Correct me if I am wrong, but he doesn't seem like a tyrant to me.

[lars573]

Well I think he's a damn sight better than anyone the US woud have approved of. But he's a blow hard, a rabble rouser, a saber rattler, a populist and a socialist. He also wins elections and runs the country by cutting out the upper classes. Plus he's a bit of a strong man. In other words he's just what the country needs, right now. He lacks some clear goals for lasting economic development. To me he gets more points for actually doing something rather than relying on trickle down.

[Tribesman]

Where in Chavez' programs do we see encouragement of entrepenurial endeavors? Assistance in development of roads/bridges/ports/commercial space? Assistance for professional degrees and job development?

If such programs exist, with a trend towards private ownership or assumption of control by private citizens, that would signal something different.

Just wondering Seamus , do you actually know anything about any of the programs or development projects at all ?:inquisitive:
You know , start up loans , tax breaks things like that .
The take up on the co-op scheme is quite interesting .

Oh and Rabbit , I see you still cannot get your facts straight on poverty levels , would you like some help ? :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Just wondering Seamus , do you actually know anything about any of the programs or development projects at all ?
You know , start up loans , tax breaks things like that.
The take up on the co-op scheme is quite interesting.

Actually, I am aware of only some of what is going on there, hence my questioning tone. I admit to being skeptical of anyone who combines socialism with anti-USA sabre-rattling, but was not entirely dismissive.

I am aware of:

Education and Public Health programs emphasizing coverage on the Ven' poor.

Sweetheart deals with Cuba (in part to reciprocate for assistance with above).

A flight of external capital, especially during Chavez' first term.

I assume that some slate of business incentives has been proposed/implemented, but am unaware of the specifics.


Admittedly, too much US media coverage on Chavez' centers on his "show-off" moves. I've only read one or two columnists (8-10 pieces total) who've addressed Venuzuela and Chavez with any real depth.

From these assessments, I am convinced that:

Chavez was legitimately -- and very popularly -- elected.

Opposition to Chavez, by boycotting the election entirely, screwed the pooch and handed him whatever official power he lacked to date.

Chavez strikes me as much more of a Peron-type than a Castro-type.

Chavez' legitimacy makes him a force to be respected if not admired. We are likely to be dealing with him -- on one level or another -- for decades.

[Pannonian]

I assume that some slate of business incentives has been proposed/implemented, but am unaware of the specifics.

Co-operatives based on the European model, eg. those that sprung up in Britain in the 19th century. Government loans investment money at low or no interest to local communities to set up co-ops, these co-ops run businesses that will pay off the government loans, and anything left over belongs to the co-op. The 19th century British model had local philanthropists instead of the government, but the principles are the same.


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31071

VENEZUELA:
State-Financed Experiments in the Solidarity Economy
Humberto Márquez

CARACAS, Nov 17 (IPS) - "I used to be a buhonera (street vendor), but I got tired of working in all weather conditions, rain or shine, so I joined the Venezuela Avanza (Venezuela Advances) cooperative. Here I earn less money and the heat in the warehouse is stifling, but we hope our working conditions will improve with time," Ana Ortiz, a mother of seven, told IPS as she sat at her sewing machine.

State-financed cooperatives are mushrooming in Venezuela, hand-in-hand with the boom in oil prices, and are supposed to be laying the foundations of a new socioeconomic model. However, some weaknesses are showing through, such as the creation of "phantom cooperatives" and a lack of self-financing.

Ortiz was one of 220 women working on a suffocatingly hot afternoon at the clothing cooperative set up a year ago in the Fabricio Ojeda Endogenous Development Nucleus, located in densely populated west Caracas. She works seven hours a day, five days a week, and is paid 117 dollars a month.

This is much less than the minimum salary, officially set at 188 dollars a month. "The thing is that we operate under the law for cooperatives and not the labour laws. What we pay is not a salary, but an advance on profits, which will be distributed in December," Ana Guédez, who is on the cooperative's administrative council, said in response to questions from IPS.

The Nucleus is located in a fuel distribution and storage station that had been closed for more than 12 years. It was reconditioned to make room for the textile cooperative along with a shoemaking cooperative, a government health clinic, a small plaza, and a vegetable garden to be tended by the elderly.

Next door is one of the markets forming part of the government subsidised food programme, and in the neighbourhood there will also be a library, a school for community activism, a soup kitchen, a preschool centre, a community radio station, a computer centre, and other projects to be chosen by the residents, said Guédez.

Decision-making assemblies are held to address production matters, according to Maria Maza, 20, one of the 143 people - nearly all women - who belong to the shoemaking cooperative. "We make mainly school shoes, a single model at a lower price, approved by an assembly of cooperative members together with people from the community," she explained.

The combination of enthusiasm, difficulties and hope seen in the textile cooperative is repeated elsewhere. "It's a job, an opportunity. We work with glue, and we have problems with the air extractor fans, but that will get better in a few months. We can't spend money on everything at once," said Marta Arrieta, a leather cutter.

The shoemakers voted to pay themselves 186 dollars, just under the minimum salary, for their monthly remuneration or advance on profits. This time-honoured method is used by cooperatives the world over, ever since the first cooperative was founded in Rochdale, U.K. in 1844. This practice means they can avoid some of the payments required by labour laws that are due to salaried workers (which they do not employ).

The Fabricio Ojeda Nucleus is the showcase for these centres of economic, social and political activity. It serves as a debate forum when neighbourhood activists gather for health committees or urban land use meetings, and it is often shown off to foreign visitors by the government of leftist President Hugo Chávez.

Fabricio Ojeda was a journalist who headed the Patriotic Junta, a civilian organisation that helped to overthrow the dictatorship of general Marco Pérez Jiménez (1948-1958). He was elected to parliament for the 1959-1964 period, but abandoned his seat to join the communist guerrillas. He died in 1966 in a military prison.

Where are the funds coming from for the new cooperatives? State oil giant Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) contributed 7.4 million dollars for remodelling warehouses and common areas, building the clinic, and for use as seed money for the projects, including the working capital for the cooperatives, said the coordinator of the nucleus, Winckelman Ángel.

Local bricklayers' cooperatives were put in charge of the civil engineering works, under the direction of naval engineers, Ángel added.

Meanwhile, new developments have been occurring with an architectural cooperative, and another cooperative of university graduates, Ápices, which is in charge of looking after social and economic aspects in the nucleus.

More than 100 kilometres to the southeast, in a rural location bordering a national park, the big house of the former La Elvira cocoa plantation is the site of another endogenous development nucleus, with smaller cooperatives aiming to exploit the area's potential to attract tourists who want to relax in the open air in contact with nature.

"A group of 19 of us have formed a cooperative to manage part of the big house as an inn, and to work as tourist guides. We were granted a 97,000 dollar government loan," Paula Calderaro, director of the project, which emerged as an initiative of the Ministry of the Popular Economy, told IPS.

Other cooperatives for the nucleus are being formed, involving transport, crafts, jams and preserves, the maintenance of fields for an agrotourism "cocoa route", and running the restaurant at the big house. Half an hour away, a group of peasant farmers led by Javier Hidalgo wants to create a beach resort by a river.

In the nearby dusty town of Macaira, population 3,000, the army has been busy repairing roads, the church and the primary school, and is also cooperating with health programmes. "We need a secondary school, a health clinic, and most of all we need jobs," María Fuentes, a retired teacher, told IPS.

Several cooperatives have been formed to carry out construction work, transport, crafts, and even a bakery.

"Our idea is to link these cooperatives with those at the nucleus, to create a sort of tourist route between Macaira and La Elvira, and to connect that nucleus with others to establish an endogenous development zone," the deputy minister of the Popular Economy, Juan Carlos Loyo, commented to IPS.

"This plan is a year old. People go on courses for technical and production training, and to learn how to organise a cooperative. The course takes several months, and they may receive a scholarship (80 dollars a month) while they are in training. Then they organise themselves and come up with a project, financing is sought, and they start to produce," Loyo explained.

After 12 months, "260,000 people have graduated and have set up 6,800 cooperatives, 60 percent of which already have financing. The cooperatives are grouped in 125 endogenous development nuclei. This means that about 200,000 people will be working collectively, in a country with 26 million inhabitants and a work force of 12 million," Loyo indicated.

With government funding and a major reduction in the requirements for their creation, cooperatives are booming in Venezuela. The total number rose from 800 in 1998 to 10,000 in 2003, 50,000 in 2004, and 74,200 by the end of June.

In two years, PDVSA alone has poured 585 million dollars into "endogenous development" programmes, one of the company's vice presidents, Franklin Méndez, told a recent regional forum of environment ministers.

Oscar Bastidas, with the Centre for Cooperative Studies at the Central University (Cepac-UCV), warns that this may be "money thrown into a bottomless pit, if the cooperative disbands as soon as the first instalment of money is paid. This happens because of the improvised way in which many cooperatives have been organised."

The expert pointed to the absence of one of the general principles of the cooperative movement, namely self-financing. Instead, he said, the programme "has become an instrument for the government to redistribute oil income."

Even the minister for the Popular Economy Elías Jaua admitted that "there are many cooperatives that are registered as such on paper, but which actually have a boss who is paid more, salaried workers, and unequal distribution of work and income."

For this reason, the government Superintendence of Cooperatives has commenced a programme of inspection, "to make sure they aren't being used as a smokescreen for some groups to cling to privileges," the minister said.

"We know that we are coming from a capitalist lifestyle that is profoundly individualistic and self-centred," commented Loyo.

"Our idea is to lay the foundations for a new socioeconomic model, which our president (Chávez) calls '21st century socialism.' That's why we're prioritising communities that belong together in a shared social fabric and organise themselves for productive activity," he added.

In the Fabricio Ojeda nucleus, Ángel, the coordinator, put it like this: "We, the organisers, are not going to be here forever. The nucleus must be strengthened and the community and its cooperatives must be able to sustain it. We transfer power to the community, but the community must be prepared to take over. It's all part of the ongoing struggle to create 21st century socialism."

Co-operatives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operatives

[Tribesman]

To update on Pannonians article the number of co-ops has increased to over 108,000 for the 2nd qtr of this year .
But my main concern is over the viability of the agricultural reforms . I was just wondering what Jag would have to say about them .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Don't worry Tribesman. I'm sure they'll be just as successful -maybe even more so!- than Cuba's five year plans for sugar growing.


Where are the facts that all of you are using to discredit and bemoan Chavez?! Ah yes, you don't have any and havent presented any, just as normal then.

Oh please. I've mentioned, several times before, Chavez's court stacking, protest barring, criminalization of dissent, etc. All you ever do is completely ignore it. So don't pretend like you haven't seen it numerous times before.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Oh dear rabbit, you get caught out repeating crap that has already been shown to be false , so now you come up with sugar .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Could you explain what happened to the sugar market ?

Oh please. I've mentioned, several times before, Chavez's court stacking, protest barring, criminalization of dissent, etc.
What you mean just like your government does ?:inquisitive:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh please. I've mentioned, several times before, Chavez's court stacking, protest barring, criminalization of dissent, etc.
What you mean just like your government does ?

Come on. You're resorting to logical fallacies again. The question was for JAG, brave defender of any dictator who proclaims himself a socialist.


Oh dear rabbit, you get caught out repeating crap that has already been shown to be false , so now you come up with sugar .
Could you explain what happened to the sugar market ?

What's that tribesy? Why don't you get off your lazy *** and find it for yourself? That's what you're always demanding other people do. Don't burden me with your ignorance.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

What's that tribesy? Why don't you get off your lazy *** and find it for yourself? That's what you're always demanding other people do. Don't burden me with your ignorance.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Thats rich , I bet you don't even know trhe name of the operation which was augmented to include the wrecking of the sugar industry and the rigging of international markets because Cubas sugar was too cheap .
So before you throw out words like ignorance perhaps you should think about which topic you wish to raise , as you have clearly raised a subject that you are patently ignorant of .
Its quite easy information to find , since your government has declassified large sections of it .:book:
I would provide a link to the relevant sections of Mongoose , but I know you don't like confronting facts that shatter your illusions .

Come on. You're resorting to logical fallacies again.
Nope I was pointing out that those particular issues that you object to are also carried out by your own government .

The question was for JAG, brave defender of any dictator who proclaims himself a socialist.

And I also have put a question for JAG to address , but unlike your question mine is based on the actual situation not on irrelevant rubbish .

[Crazed Rabbit]

What's that tribesy? Why don't you get off your lazy *** and find it for yourself? That's what you're always demanding other people do. Don't burden me with your ignorance.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Thats rich , I bet you don't even know trhe name of the operation which was augmented to include the wrecking of the sugar industry and the rigging of international markets because Cubas sugar was too cheap .
So before you throw out words like ignorance perhaps you should think about which topic you wish to raise , as you have clearly raised a subject that you are patently ignorant of .
Its quite easy information to find , since your government has declassified large sections of it .:book:
I would provide a link to the relevant sections of Mongoose , but I know you don't like confronting facts that shatter your illusions .

Ah, were would we be without tribesy's Ad Hominem attacks? In a thread without his involvement, I suppose. :idea2:


Come on. You're resorting to logical fallacies again.
Nope I was pointing out that those particular issues that you object to are also carried out by your own government .

The "two wrongs make a right" argument is a logical fallacy. I'll even provide a link: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html
So, yes, you just admitted to a logical fallacy. :laugh4:


The question was for JAG, brave defender of any dictator who proclaims himself a socialist.

And I also have put a question for JAG to address , but unlike your question mine is based on the actual situation not on irrelevant rubbish .

Oh, do you have a degree in latin and south American affairs? Just who made you the expert? Considering my statement was directly in response to something JAG said, it is relevant.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Poor rabbit is having problems with the English language again .
Do you go out of your way to make statements that are false or is it that you just have a problem using truthfull information ?

Considering my statement was directly in response to something JAG said, it is relevant.

No it isn't , apart from the fact that it reinforces JAGs assertion.....Where are the facts that all of you are using to discredit and bemoan Chavez?! Ah yes, you don't have any and havent presented any, just as normal then.

JAG was right , you havn't presented any , and you follow it up by not presenting any .
You started with a false statement , that you know full well is false . You follow it with a statement about an event that you clearly know nothing about , followed with an irrelevent example of flawed logic which clearly proves Jags statement true . Add in a few silly accusations and personal attacks and what do we have ......your usual contribution .:no:


edit BTW The McVay site is down , do you want to provide another link ?

[Ser Clegane]

I think we need to buy a hose... :thinking:

(or provide a separated room)