View Full Version : Ahh, those lovely Berber Camels...
I have come to *really* appreciate this unit to the point where I never even bother training foot archers in my Almo games.
These guys plain rock. First of all, their ranged attackmakes them valuable in any situation save for maybe a castle siege.
Second, these guys are pretty much invulnerable to anything other than massed foot archers: they are fast enough to outrun spears/polearms, they eat light cavalry for breakfast, and they can stall Knight long enough for the Ghazis to flank and slaughter them.
They are cheap to maintain, they can start out at v2, they absolutely RULE in the desert (to the point where I find Beduin Camels to be of little use), and remain very useful in any other climate.
In short, I absolutely love these guys.
Don't forget their +1 bonus when trained in Morocco. ~:)
I admit, though, I'm a little surprised by your fondness for them. From everything I've ready most players don't seem to have a very high opinion of Berbers. (Heck, even Mithrandir's preferences run more towards the Bedouins!) I myself haven't played as the Almos enough to really have an opinion of Berber Camels one way or the other, but either way, your post is one of the very few I've seen praising that unit. They're really that good, then?
...They're really that good, then?
Yes. My biggest problem with the Beduins is their low morale and their narrow specialization. Berbers have neither one of those problems. V2 Berber has good morale, its bow makes it useful in any terrain against just about any unit, and it's still an anti-horse unit. All you really lose with v2 Berbers vs Beduins is the charge. Everything else berbers do better and then some.
As Almo I never even bother with training Faris, I simply do not need them.
See, I never found Berbers to be that useful. I found their melee abilities to be so poor that they were only good against archers and (usually) peasants. And in terms of firepower, regular archers could always outgun them any day of the week. The only real use I ever found for Berber Camels was to distract the enemy, and/or tempt them into a less advantageous position.
As Almo I never even bother with training Faris, I simply do not need them.
Blasphemy! Burn the heretic! ~D
Kralizec
08-15-2006, 00:33
The Elmos don't really have any elite units, so playing them requires skill in managing low-medium end units. Berbers are one of them.
I prefer to desert archers because they're slightly cheaper in upkeep. I usually build more Berbers then DA, because if I need more foot archers I can just dismount the Berbers. That gives you only 80 men but they have a small valour bonus, if you trained the Berbers in Marocco.
Their chiefest weakness is that they're vulnerable to arrows. I keep this in mind and usually do well enough with them.
I use Faris just as much though, except that I train Faris in the Iberian provinces with as many armour as I can give them. I use Berber camels in the desert, everywhere else I use Faris.
The Elmos don't really have any elite units, so playing them requires skill in managing low-medium end units...
Yup. All you have is basically a bunch of peasants. Berbers? -- Camel riding peasants with bows. AUM? -- Peasants. Ghazis? -- insane peasants. Hashishin? -- drugged up insane peasants.
Other than the Ghulams, Nubians and the Faris I can't name a single professional soldier in Almo unit roster. Now the good thing is that those peasants should they survive, gain valor rather nicely.
Ironside
08-15-2006, 11:26
Yup. All you have is basically a bunch of peasants. Berbers? -- Camel riding peasants with bows. AUM? -- Peasants. Ghazis? -- insane peasants. Hashishin? -- drugged up insane peasants.
Other than the Ghulams, Nubians and the Faris I can't name a single professional soldier in Almo unit roster. Now the good thing is that those peasants should they survive, gain valor rather nicely.
That's true, I did end up with a quite un-Almohadic army last time I played with them. Faris, arbs, Armenian heavy cav, Swiss halbs and Almughavars (modded to be buildable in Aragon). :book:
And the berbers do have a bit of "jinette" feeling about although not as painful to face (but then thier archery does more damage than the jinette's javelins).
Facing high valored bebers cav without much archers and cav is a painful experience, especially when thier melee is strong enough to rout half your army (still won that one though :sweatdrop: )
...Facing high valored bebers cav without much archers and cav is a painful experience, especially when thier melee is strong enough to rout half your army...
Exactly. To be honest, I tried using Berbers purely for their Almohad flavor without expecting any miracles, but they pleasantly surprised me in a very major way.
Empirate
08-18-2006, 17:34
I made heavy use of Moroccan Berbers in my Almo campaigns as the single best counter to Jinetes: They outrange them, the best thing against Jinetes are arrows, they fall like flies; and if Jinetes come too close, Berbers slaughter them in melee. This is the main strong point of Berber Camels. They're missile cav that doesn't share the universal weakness of other light horse archers - vulnerability against light cavalry (steppe, hobblers, saharans, mounted sarges). But they lack the firepower of desert archers, so in European campaigns, Berbers are rarely part of my armies.
Bedouins are the unit of choice if you're looking to slaughter knights on the cheap. Berbers are more expensive, and they can't kill knights. At valor 2 they might put up a fight, but still... that's a bit of a buildup, too.
Concerning "professional" soldiers in the Almo unit roster: What about AUM? They're called militia, but their stats equal Feudal Men-at-Arms. Those are professionals, aren't they? And what about Arbalesters, with or without the Pavise? Whenever I play the Turks, I miss these guys so much I long to play Almo again! As for Ghazis, I wouldn't call them insane peasants... they're more like insane mass murderers! I routinely use them to attack MAA or similar stuff up front. They lose a lot of men, but they rout the enemy, and they're cheap to retrain. You can also easily go for Armenian Heavy Cav, who will give you all the cav-happiness you need! And then there's Naphta-Throwers, of course...
I made heavy use of Moroccan Berbers in my Almo campaigns as the single best counter to Jinetes: They outrange them, the best thing against Jinetes are arrows, they fall like flies; and if Jinetes come too close, Berbers slaughter them in melee. This is the main strong point of Berber Camels. They're missile cav that doesn't share the universal weakness of other light horse archers - vulnerability against light cavalry (steppe, hobblers, saharans, mounted sarges)....
As someone who frequently plays the Spanish, I can personally vouch that Berbers can do some serious damage to my beloved Jinnettes if I'm not careful. Fortunately for me, however, Berbers can't outrun them. ~D
Bedouins are the unit of choice if you're looking to slaughter knights on the cheap.
I can't disagree there. Do the Almos even get Bedouins, though? I didn't think they did, but it's been a long time since I've played the Caliphate so I can't be sure.
Concerning "professional" soldiers in the Almo unit roster: What about AUM? They're called militia, but their stats equal Feudal Men-at-Arms. Those are professionals, aren't they?
I think rvg simply meant "professional" in the sense that units like archers, men-at-arms, etc., got paid as part of a regular army. Units like AUM's and Gazis, on the other hand, were not. But I digress. Yes, AUM's abilities in the game are equal--if not superior--to that of FMAA. They're a big reason why the western half of the map tended be Almohad orange in the original (pre-VI) MTW. ~:eek:
As for Ghazis, I wouldn't call them insane peasants... they're more like insane mass murderers!
LOL. :laugh4: I love Ghazis; they're probably my favorite sword/axe infantry unit in the game. They're just ridiculous when you let them loose on the enemy! And like you said, their high casualty rates don't matter so much because they're relatively cheap to retrain. Just as Jinnettes are one of the reasons the Spanish is my favorite faction, Ghazis are a big reason why the Eggies are my second-favorite. ~:)
Kralizec
08-18-2006, 20:51
Berber Camels are available in Morocco, Algeria and perhaps Cyrenica (not sure)
In all the other desert provinces you can recruit Bedouins.
...You can also easily go for Armenian Heavy Cav...
Almos are just about as far from Armenia as one could be, so including AHC into my military strategy is problematic at best. Sort of akin to counting on Gallowglasses in the Polish campaign.
@Kralizec: Thanks for the reminder. My paper unit guide is missing, and I couldn't remember how regional-dependent Bergers were. :bow:
Almos are just about as far from Armenia as one could be, so including AHC into my military strategy is problematic at best. Sort of akin to counting on Gallowglasses in the Polish campaign.
LOL. That was an amusing mental image. :laugh4:
I'm pretty sure Empirate is aware of that; I believe he'd segued into talking about the Turks by that point, however. (I'm just guessing, though.) ~:)
Maloncanth
08-23-2006, 19:21
My problem with Berbers is that they really don't have firepower, which is something that is true for all horse archers (at least for their archery aspects). Where most horse archers tend to be fast to make up for this, I believe Berbers are slow compared to most cavalry (camel paced) so they aren't fast either and the moment they're out of the sand, they're in trouble.
They may be tough against mounted opponents but at that point, I'd much rather have Steppephracts or even Byzantines Cavalry. Granted, they do work out to be a nice counter to Jinettes and the Elmoes aren't going to get much better. In the grand scheme of things though, they'll be useless after a few victories against the Spanish.
My problem with Berbers is that they really don't have firepower, which is something that is true for all horse archers (at least for their archery aspects). Where most horse archers tend to be fast to make up for this, I believe Berbers are slow compared to most cavalry (camel paced) so they aren't fast either and the moment they're out of the sand, they're in trouble.
They may be tough against mounted opponents but at that point, I'd much rather have Steppephracts or even Byzantines Cavalry. Granted, they do work out to be a nice counter to Jinettes and the Elmoes aren't going to get much better. In the grand scheme of things though, they'll be useless after a few victories against the Spanish.
I don't see how their firepower is less than that of any other cavalry archer. They shoot their bows just fine both in and out of the desert. In addition to that, they counter cavalry quite nicely, and if your *REALLY* need foot archers, they can always dismount.
Mithrandir
08-24-2006, 18:24
They fall prey to other archer units easy, that's their only weakness...
Maloncanth
08-26-2006, 22:46
I don't see how their firepower is less than that of any other cavalry archer. They shoot their bows just fine both in and out of the desert. In addition to that, they counter cavalry quite nicely, and if your *REALLY* need foot archers, they can always dismount.
Not in terms of bows but as I said, horse archers aren't terribly full of firepower in general simply because they come in fewer numbers than foot archers (which dismounting doesn't solve). However, they're also slow, so it's much more difficult to apply the firepower, so they're going to be shooting off their pack of arrows less often and less effectively.
As for cavalry countering, I've never tried to charge them AT cavalry. But I doubt they'd be able to close if the cavalry declined to engage, again because they're camel paced.
gaijinalways
08-30-2006, 00:05
I haven't played with camels much, but them being slow:wall: hasn't made me appreciate them much, except when I am killing them!:2thumbsup:
Mithrandir
08-30-2006, 00:07
faster than inf and invulnerable to cav = godlike.
faster than inf and invulnerable to cav = godlike.
Only if we're talking about Bedouins. ~D
I still find Berbers to be of only limited utility, since they're designed almost exclusively to counter Jinnettes. Once I've conquered Iberia, their usefulness mostly disappears and I rarely train Berbers again for the rest of the campaign.
Vladimir
09-01-2006, 19:51
faster than inf and invulnerable to cav = godlike.
And low armor for my missiles. ~D
Mithrandir
09-01-2006, 20:00
That's why they invented the nice cav/camel combo :D.
(CCC for short).
Vladimir
09-01-2006, 20:04
As always, I bow to your wisdom :bow:. If you haven't already you should create a Complete Camel Guide (CCG describing your CCC and other tricks).
Mithrandir
09-01-2006, 20:14
Well, the basics as to why my army was so mighty was not it strengths, rather it's lack of weaknesses.
I had 3 armoured up pavs, or sometimes 4, some really strong infantry (valour 3 or even 4 militia sergs, and 2 AUM, add the CCC into the flavour and you;ve got the ingredients for succes :
I was hardly ever outgunned, I always won on the infantry front because I had beefed up infantry (which I could afford because archers and basic cav doesnt cost too much) and on the cavelry front as well, since camels beat cav, period. The light cavelry (unupgraded ghulams f.e.) were just for breaking units, preferably cavelry.
Gah, incoherent story. I'll do one more detailed when Iév got the time.
Vladimir
09-01-2006, 20:21
:laugh4: Good LORD! It seems like you did type that one up in a hurry. It sounds like a good combo though. Your strong anti-cav ability would protect your vanguard infantry allowing them to slice and dice their way to victory.
Peasant Phill
09-02-2006, 15:42
And here I tought CCC stood for 'cellule comunist combatant'. Well I can see the camels terrorising those poor catholic cavalry
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