View Full Version : Can baktrians get kataphraktoi?
Darkarbiter
08-17-2006, 03:31
Can baktrians get kataphraktoi? Im just wondering cos i think selecuds can. If they cant whats their best heavy cavlry?
http://img219.echo.cx/img219/3898/ukataphraktoi7nb.jpg
After suffering heavy losses to the Parthian and Armenian Cataphracts, the Seleucid and Bactrian empires produced their own versions of these heavy horsemen, both adapting the unit to Greek technology and using superior metalwork to make them even more heavily armored. They are armored in an expensive combination of lamellar armor and chain, with heavy felt sandwiched in the middle. The resulting armor is tough and flexible, but offers outstanding protection. They are to be used as heavy shock cavalry, and have staying power in melee because of the sheer weight of their armor. They are slightly heavier than their Parthian counterparts, but lack the deadly maces that the Parthians carry and also the élan of their elite Parthian counterparts. Their horses are as heavily armored than those of the Hetairoi, but they lack the characteristic fierceness and discipline of the elite successor cavalry.
Historically, Hellenistic Kataphraktoi were at least as good as their Parthian enemy, but most Seleucid commanders did not quite understand how to use this cavalry. They won great victories over the Parthians when supporting the heavier and more elite Hetairoi, compelling the Parthians to settle for a peace treaty and suzerainty over some of the Seleucid eastern possessions. They passed into history when most of the unit was bribed by Pompey during his conquest of the east. They formed the basis for the Roman cataphracts of later ages.
edit: source EB Baktrian preview
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47681&highlight=baktria+preview
Darkarbiter
08-17-2006, 05:43
Ok well im about to wipe out parthia (armenia is very much still alive) anyone know what the triggers for getting kats are?
CountArach
08-17-2006, 06:24
I think you just have to lose battle vs Parthia, when their army has cataphracts. Not sure if the margin of loss counts for anything.
Haven't had a chance to see those Kataphractoi models before, nice work whoever skinned them!
Having used them in custom battles I find Hetairoi far superior (It could be that I just have not learnt how to use them yet)
edyzmedieval
08-17-2006, 14:34
Kataphraktoi are just a big clad of armor on a horse, who make a devastating charge. Hetairoi are lighter, therefore more maneouvrable and pack a nastier charge, but the shock is lighter than at the Kats.
Kataphraktoi are only shock troops, who can melee very well too.
Teleklos Archelaou
08-17-2006, 15:26
I think you just have to lose battle vs Parthia, when their army has cataphracts. Not sure if the margin of loss counts for anything.
Haven't had a chance to see those Kataphractoi models before, nice work whoever skinned them!
It was (I believe) our own award-winning Spartan Warrior (who has just won the best skinner/modeler award over at twcenter.net, in a tie with Dirty Peasant).
Kataphraktoi are just a big clad of armor on a horse, who make a devastating charge. Hetairoi are lighter, therefore more maneouvrable and pack a nastier charge, but the shock is lighter than at the Kats.
Kataphraktoi are only shock troops, who can melee very well too.
Oh I understand the principle just whenever I charged they tented to get killed very easily in the melee and i took some horrendous losses from some Akontistai so I decided to just stick with what works for me.
Avicenna
08-18-2006, 02:26
took some horrendous losses from some Akontistai
Now that's just disgraceful.
Mujalumbo
08-18-2006, 03:44
Not sure why that is. Heavy cavalry takes a (seemingly) disproportionate amount of casualties taking down light skirmishers.
Not sure why that is. Heavy cavalry takes a (seemingly) disproportionate amount of casualties taking down light skirmishers.
Tell me about it. This has been discussed here and elsewhere. One idea was that often the skirmishers are retreating and the cavalry somehow switch from charging, to pursuing, losing the charge bonus when they connect. If you put your skirmishers in close formation, without skirmish mode, I suspect the heavy cavalry would crash into them and do a lot damage.
Furthermore, when the two do finally connect, the skirmishers about turn and hit the cavalry with impressive gusto. It's like the cavalry get caught in a net of skirmishers who envelop them. I wonder if some of the skirmishers are striking an unprotected part of the cavalry (is there a bonus for striking at a soldier's back maybe - e.g. they lose the defence bonus and get only the armour?).
Several solutions have been proposed - form your cavalry into a thin long line, to connect with as many skirmishers as possible. Maybe even put them in loose formation. Maybe charge "through" the skirmishers - click beyong them, not at them, and then come around when they are not retreating. Maybe even use multiple sequential cavalry units (sounds like hunting duck with cannon).
Personally, I just avoid using cavalry against skirmishers and use slingers etc instead. Cavalry is too precious to waste on low-lifes. But it feels wrong - cavalry should be a good counter to skirmishers.
Ace Cataphract
08-18-2006, 17:56
Actually, I've found that the best way of all is the run right through. When the cavalry impact, they'll switch to "pursuing" almost immediately instead of fighting for real. The best thing to do is to order your cavalry to run right through the formation after impact, which makes the enemy stop, then order them to attack once the cavalry run through their halted formation.
Loose formation doesn't work because it defeats the purpose of their being cavalry. They don't impact as well and they get tied down and teamed up on more easily.
Putting them in a wide formation works better than this, but not as well as just smashing through them.
However, it's true, cavalry are only useful against skirmishers when they're in tight formation. Otherwise it does put them at excessive risk.
Almost any cavalry can crush skirmishers. As soon as the fleeing skirmishers turn to fight just tell your cavalry to stop and then to attack again. Instead of riding around like idiots getting hit they actually fight, do it quick enough and they wont get mobbed.
Almost any cavalry can crush skirmishers. As soon as the fleeing skirmishers turn to fight just tell your cavalry to stop and then to attack again. Instead of riding around like idiots getting hit they actually fight, do it quick enough and they wont get mobbed.
Yes, but presumably you lose the charge bonus? I think you need a decent run up (spears lowered) for that to kick in. It may not be a big deal in the current build of EB but with the move to 1.5, I believe cavalry will become more reliant on actually charging and the attack stat will be cut.
As far as I can tell that charge bonus goes out the window as soon as contact is made so its not as if your getting much use from it anyway.
I think cavalry are still retarded fighting retreating enemies in 1.5 although granted I never played 1.5 a great deal before I found RTR/EB.
As far as I can tell that charge bonus goes out the window as soon as contact is made so its not as if your getting much use from it anyway.
You will in 1.5, believe me. I'm playing RTR Platinum (& BI mods) and they have given cavalry a high charge, but slashed the attack. Getting the charge bonus is everything.
According to what CA have said in the past, the charge bonus should keep working for a while due to a momentum effect - if you are successful knocking past one foe, the bonus carries on to the next. I think that's why dense formations can stall charges. At least that's how it's supposed to work.
Darkarbiter
08-18-2006, 23:46
I would assume the heavier the cavlry is the longer the effect would take place though
You will in 1.5, believe me. I'm playing RTR Platinum (& BI mods) and they have given cavalry a high charge, but slashed the attack. Getting the charge bonus is everything.
According to what CA have said in the past, the charge bonus should keep working for a while due to a momentum effect - if you are successful knocking past one foe, the bonus carries on to the next. I think that's why dense formations can stall charges. At least that's how it's supposed to work.
Yes but the problem is if you don’t tell them to stop and reorder the attack they wont fight properly and will just ride in circles taking hits. I remember having this bug playing BI still and as we all know that’s 1.6. Slashing attack power and making high charge bonus seems to me that cavalry will be even worse against fleeing skirmishers.
Trithemius
08-19-2006, 00:41
You will in 1.5, believe me. I'm playing RTR Platinum (& BI mods) and they have given cavalry a high charge, but slashed the attack. Getting the charge bonus is everything.
Can this be avoided by keeping a slightly higher Attack for cavalry, in addition to a strong Charge?
Can this be avoided by keeping a slightly higher Attack for cavalry, in addition to a strong Charge?
That could make cavalry overpowered I would prefer lowering the secondary attack of skirmishers (where appropriate) maybe there formation should be make less dense aswell
Fondor_Yards
08-19-2006, 03:16
Don't send Cataphracts or any Heavy Cavalry after skirmishers in the first place, that is what light cavalry is for. Heavy Cavalry should be killing other cavcalry and heavy infantry. Light cav can run them down quick and fast, and then move on to other targets.
Don't send Cataphracts or any Heavy Cavalry after skirmishers in the first place, that is what light cavalry is for. Heavy Cavalry should be killing other cavcalry and heavy infantry. Light cav can run them down quick and fast, and then move on to other targets.
Thats missing the point FY Heavy Cavalry should be able to ride down skirmishers with relative ease just because things can be done a different way in game doesnt mean we shouldnt try to make things a bit more accurate if we can.
Fondor_Yards
08-19-2006, 04:09
*Shrugs* I've never had that problem of Heavy Cavalry vs Skirmishers. The only problem I ever have is that my cav is usualy pretty tired and theirs is fresh so the chase can take forever if I only use 1 unit. Or if my cav is low-no exp and theirs are very high, or if my cav unit is very undermanned. Once they finnaly get to them, their either do this weird thing where they keep running around through the enemy formation killing them nicely, or sit there meele with them, killing with few-none losses normaly. My sacred band, iberian heavy cavalry, and heteroi seem to work fine vs skirmishers.
Medium Cavalry are good unit to also use vs skirmishers since they can usualy chase down quickly and have the power to finish them off fast *Bactrian Hippies, Hippies, Median/Aspet/Kappadocian Cavalry, Brihentin, Equites are all nice examples of what I am talking about*.
Why not just give a -major- penality to skirmishers when facing cavalry, akin to the bonus they get against elephants?
Why not just give a -major- penality to skirmishers when facing cavalry, akin to the bonus they get against elephants?
I'm not sure thats possible with the RTW engine I'll look into it when I get home but thats 10 hours aways so if there's anyone out there who knows the answer already feel free to enlighten us.
QwertyMIDX
08-23-2006, 04:51
You can definatly do it, I'll look into for the 0.8 stats build.
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