View Full Version : WotS The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III
UPS Maximus receives another letter from the consul.
Senators! More news from the consul!
"Senators,
I am pleased to hear of our victories in the east over the Seleucids. Slightly disappointed that one of their armies found it better to flee than fight, but such cowards will be dealt with in due time.
I am currently preparing for an expedition of my own in the west. After further assessment of the situation, I have determined that it would, in fact, be detrimental to our campaign in Afrika to allow the army led by Celeas Abderas and Mobilkar the Mad to exist for one more season. The smaller contingents surrounding him, while easily defeated one at a time with Celeas gone, would provide a much more difficult opponent if allowed to group and fought in unison with or directly following a battle with the main Carthy army.
So the plan is to strike at the carthy heart, then break the limbs as they come down one by one.
I shall send word of the expedition soon."
(OOC - Having some minor computer problems. I've solved the problem, but unforetunatly it involved wiping my entire computer, so I'm in the process of redownloading all the mods and glueing them back together. If all goes well, I'll be up and ready to go within the next 2 hours. If not, I need to try the multi-part zip.
Do not worry! This will not interfere with the flow of the game! If I can't get it up and running within the next two hours, Quintus Libo will be given the order to march, and the game will progress regardless, while I hammer out the minor details with the re-install.)
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-18-2006, 23:32
First consul,
As your army is already invading the Cartheginian heartland, I can't help but wonder what has happened to the Consular Army, which was ready to invade from Sicily ? Do you want to deny your brother Marcellus his part of the glory and conquer Carthage singlehandedly ?
Those who the gods would destroy, they first make proud.
GeneralHankerchief
09-18-2006, 23:37
Uncle, darnit. So I have even more authority over him than I would as brother. :laugh4:
UPS Maximus - Senator Lucius, you are mistaken. It was made very clear that the conquest of Carthage would not begin for at least a year and a half past the first consul's election. What is occuring now is the necessary whiddling down of Carthage's military might. Consul Servius is by no means moving north in an attempt to conquer Carthaginian territory. He is taking advantage of a strategically sound position to pull Carthage's brazen and unprepared armies south, where they will be broken one by one. Marcellus and Flavius Pacuvius, will, within a year and a half's time, be landing on the shores of Carthage to begin the actual conquest.
As for the consular army, Manius Coruncanius is ready to embark to the east, where it is more immediately needed.
As for the gods, the only pride I have seen from the consul is pride to be fighting in Mars name, and for the good of the Republic, for the advancement of our people. I see no personal issues clouding his judgement. Perhaps you should read the second half of the first consular report, updated just recently. There, the consul speaks of passion, and may I note, at the end of every journal entry. He writes "in nomini roma, et pro totus doxa deum." (In the name of Rome, and for all the glory of the gods.)
You should know your grandson better than anyone Lucius.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-19-2006, 08:50
As I feared, the endless battles in the east are drawing your attention away from the core issue, the conquest of Carthage. I think it is a mistake to send the consular army to the east instead of the south. In your position, I would leave the east to its own devices and send all available troops southwards.
Nevertheless, I lack access to all the tactical information and am confident the first consul has made a sound decision.
Senator Lucius Aemilius,
I would perhaps believe that my Grandfather and Senator Numerius Aureolus would have a much different view of that situation. They face the full force of the Selucid Kingdom with only a Legion each, no Senator, I am needed elsewhere.
The Consul is not being distracted, how could he be? He, himself, is fighting in Afrika…surely his thoughts are more there than anywhere else.
I have great confidence in the plans the Consul has, there will be an Invasion of Afrika and the conquest of Carthage, but in a proper manner where the Mothers of our Republic do not weep for too many lost sons of Mars.
NUMERIUS AUREOLUS: I wonder if the First Consul could inform the Senate on his grand strategic thinking at the moment? Some of his actions have been unexpected given the discussions in the last Senate session. For example:
1) Our occupation of Viberi appears to be permanent - what are the Consul's intentions regarding the remaining Thracian settlements?
2) Our response to the Seleucid incursions into Europe have been more vigorous than I anticipated. What is to be our next move in the east?
3) The advance from Lepcis Magna has also been a surprisingly aggressive move. What will be the next move of the Consul's own army?
4) The news that the Consular army is bound for the east, not Afrika, is unexpected. What is it to be tasked with?
I list these instances not to complain - many of these surprises are welcome ones, but they are still surprises and I would be grateful to learn of the Consul's thinking.
Whilst I am privy to most of what the Consul plans for the near future and have many of the answers to the questions you ask, I would not presume to speak for the Consul but I will provide you with some form of answer for your question regarding the Consuls own incursion into Afrika.
He did not intend his incursion to have this “aggressive” turn, however, he has acted in the manner of bringing the battle to the enemy and ensuring he fights the battles HE wants to fight and where HE wants to fight them. This is exceptional tactical prudence as I am sure you can appreciate.
He has managed to destroy a weak Carthaginian army and a Consular sized one for very little loss to his Roman and Italian Troops. He is perhaps in as better condition than any of us had hoped because of his swift action there. He never pretended that he would be able to take on the full might of Carthage alone, and has never intended to do so but, as I have noted from his style of leadership, he will certainly push the issue as far as is humanly possible.
If Mars smiles upon him he may be fortunate enough to either decimate or destroy a further two Consular sized formations, provided he can isolate them in turn, and this would allow our full Invasion to progress far more swiftly and efficiently when it comes.
I know the task that the Consul has presented with me and granted me this Consular army with to perform. I am not at liberty to advise you of that task, but I am sure you will approve of its nature.
That is, of course, always assuming nothing changes in that time. As we all know, often the enemy are rude enough to not play by our battle plans and we are forced to change ours.
UPS Maximus - Firstly, I would like to say that any plan can be set in stone, but when you try to move ahead with that plan, that stone, there are any number of obstacles in your way which can force you to rethink your plan. Many of you should all understand this full well, as it applies to the battlefield as well. Even the best laid plans, against an equally clever foe, only last until the beginning of the first engagement.
With that in mind, I can provide you with the answers you seek.
Firstly, we never intended to permanently occupy Viberi. Before anybody else brings it up, the consul did not vote in favor of the motion to give it away to anybody who would take it, because this would involve giving it back to thrace, or potentially to Iberia, which would completely defeat the purpose of taking it from Thrace to begin with. In that respect, the only neighbor we could find who was actually willing to take it was Iberia. The consul, finding it better not to completely abandon our German allies to becoming an island amongst the Iberian sea, felt compelled to garrison the settlement instead. This act may be temporary, it may be permanent. With this issue, it is still too early to tell. For now, however, it has provided Senator Quintus Libo with a place to fall back on should Thrace counter his incursion with unexpected force. A judgement shall be passed on the remaining Thracian settlements when the consul feels the bulk of the Thracian military might has been lain to waste through our cross border incursions.
As for the Seleucids. The whole of the senate seems to be surprised by the swiftness with which we have dealt the Seleucids a serious, early blow. Within a single seasons time we have eradicated three large Seleucid armies, killed numerous high ranking Seleucid generals, and pushed a fourth army and its young commander back across the straits. This is all thanks to the battle tactics of senators Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerious Aureolus, and the campaign strategy of the consul himself. Without the three collaberating the way they had, the situation in the east could have been something that the near future would not be able to reverse. Our next move, as things stand at the moment, is to wait for the Seleucids to make a move. We are predicting a siege of Byzantium, and possibly the withdrawn army crossing the straits once again, this time under the command of the Seleucid Beast, Molon, to either take Maronia again, or confront senator Aureolus on the field. We will decide further what course to take when we see what they actually decide to do.
As he has done this autumn, the senator will rely on the information relayed to us by our spy in Afrika to determine the best course of action, if he must fall back and await a better oppertunity to strike against the Carthaginian armies, he will do so. If there is a strong oppertunity to isolate and envelope one without putting himself in unneccessary, deadly danger, it will be done.
The Consular army headed for the east under the command of Manius Coruncanius is to land at Maronia, enter a debriefing with senator Numerious Aureolus, who will by then be well informed of his next set of orders, and proceed from there. We cannot set a definate, direct goal until we see the situation in the theatre at that time.
This senate has a horrible tendency of setting specific, unflexible goals without taking into consideration the fact that all situations change. The consul realises that nothing stays the same season by season, and everything must be taken in stride. There are some generalised goals everywhere. Stabilise the east, conquer Carthage, fend of Thrace, maintain peace with Iberia. How, exactly, these things are to be done when the time comes can only be determined by the circumstances of the moment.
If the consul were to say now, the consular army heading east is to do this, this and this, then when we arrive, the situation is completely different and those things are not within our best interest, then it is much more difficult to alter the plan without looking unreliable, than if we allow ourselves the leway to deal with moments as they come.
I hope I have answered all these questions, and, if there are more, will be glad to offer whatever knowledge I may.
Mount Suribachi
09-19-2006, 14:55
If the consul were to say now, the consular army heading east is to do this, this and this, then when we arrive, the situation is completely different and those things are not within our best interest, then it is much more difficult to alter the plan without looking unreliable, than if we allow ourselves the leway to deal with moments as they come.
Forgive me Consul, but some might say that you are being driven by events, rather than driving them yourself. A more critical man might even say that you do not know what your own intentions are.
Beg your pardon Senator Paullus but isn’t the very essence of defending our borders as the Senate requires, RE-Active rather than PRO-Active?
In the East we must wait to see if the bloody nose we have given the Selucids deters them from further incursions, we have no mandate from the Senate beyond this other than to re-enforce and ensure they no longer can lay claim to our cities or walk un-contested in their streets.
Are you suggesting we take a more pro-active approach as we are doing in Afrika perhaps?
I believe the Motions passed last session prohibited further expansion in Europe also, so does this not answer the Question of Thrace? The Senate has basically instructed that our offensive ceases with them hasn’t it?
Does this also appear “event driven” to you Senator rather than the other way round?
Do not forget the Consul is bound as much as he can to fulfil the Motions the Senate has presented to him.
An invasion of Afrika and therefore Carthage was permitted……further than that is dependant on the actions of the other states around us rather than dictated by ourselves at this time as no approval was given from the Senate for other offensive actions.
But that would certainly not preclude any offensive actions where ever they are deemed as required to defend our cities as per one of our first Motions.
(OOC - Just to clear something up, because I think there might be a little confusion. UPS Maximus is Servius's freeman clerk, speaking for him in the senate while Servius himself is away on campaign. Most of what is said is the clerk's interpretation of Servius's feelings, not necessarily the precise thing. Servius's exact feelings can be seen in the consular reports, battle reports, and when UPS informs the senate that "a message from the consul has arrive". Just clearing up some confusion. :sweatdrop: )
UPS Maximus - Then some may clearly be incapable of seeing the prudence in patience. A goal must be set, but the path to it must be flexible, otherwise you walk straight into a brash, unnecessary defeat.
Look at the situation like this senator Paullus. If I am a cat and you are a mouse, and there is a piece of cheese in the center of the floor. Do you brazenly rush from your hiding place, as I sit beside the cheese, and hope to the gods I do not catch you? Or do you wait for me to go away, biding your time for the perfect oppertunity to strike and return home unharmed? The situation is that simple. Such brazen acts, charging in without truly knowing the gravity of the situation, cost us two co consuls in the last consulship. Able, cunning, and valuable men to the Republic, lost because they were not properly informed of the whole state of affairs. They did their duty to Rome, and they payed the ultimate price for it. Consul Servius would prefer the alternative. As we have already seen, his tactics have worked superbly thus far, based on reliable intelligence, co-operation and prudent, patient planning. Would you have us do the opposite, and rush in swords drawn and blind? I would not, nor does the consul. Strategy, patience, and guile. These are the practices that win wars, and these are the practices this consul employs.
Further more, a "more critical man" may also be unable to tell the difference between his ass and a hole in the ground, provided they're roughly the same size, shape, and he can fit his head equally well in both of them. The consul knows exactly what his intentions are. But as it has already been said, the path must be flexible. We have a present state, and we have a future goal, but the time in between these two points will be wrought with change and unexpected events that must be worked around to secure a proper victory, a proper achievement of our goal. Think of it as a river senator. Have you ever seen a river flow completely straight from its source to its mouth? No, rivers wind and bend, and weave for a great length before they spill into the sea, because the river knows it is much easier to wind around the hill than to try to plow straight through it. It is logic, it is flexibility. The Republic, right now, is like a river. The question is, would you rather us take our victories and our goals in stride so that we can reach our golden goal and claim victory over adversity? Or would you have us dash ourselves upon every rock we encounter, until the waters of the Republic are so splintered and broken, that they are merely absorbed once more into the ground, and its very existance is forgotten with the passage of time?
I, for one, choose victory. Flexibility, patience, strategy, guile, wisdom, and daring. These are the virtues our first consul has chosen to exhibit. Let me ask you all, especially senators Aureolus and Coruncanius, whose own tactical prowess in battle have brought them great, resounding victories when used in compliance with our consul's strategy. Could the strategy of any other man have repulsed the Seleucids entirely from Roman lands in a single season's time?
Anything else senator Paullus?
Senators, I speak before you. I have rarely done so before, so that I am speaking at all must let you know the gravity of the situation. I know that most senators here are cought up between the eastern and western fronts, but you may have forgotten the still-active north front. Thrace is far from defeated. There are 2 legion sized forces in the south of her lands, within a few seasons march from undefended roman settlements. Not to mention the near-consular sized army in the north. I, Quintus Libo, command only a small, understrength legion, yet the consul has made it clear that he intends to set me up against a force twice my size. I know that in the past I have shown my prowess as a general, (38-1 kill-lose ratio at last count, yes thank you) but all you have seen of me is fighting forces who at most have 200 more men then I, and no general. If you send me against a larger force headed by the overlord of thrace with many of his son's bodyguards present... you may not be pleased with the results. I do not ask for more soldiers, I ask that we revise our policy concerning the northern front. We are in a multi-front war right now because we overexpanded. The last thing on the senate's mind right now should be taking more land. Please do not send me against the collosal thracian horde, I am too young to die! Let me instead pick apart any smaller groups of thracians, let me lie in ambush for them, let me fight on my terms. "The only thing worse then no battle is a battle lost". If you send the Germanic Legion at the Thracian heart, we will all die. If you let us fall back and take it slower, we will win in the end.
There is a look of severe confusion on UPS's face.
Your navigators are quite confused senator. You are, indeed marching in the completely opposite direction you claim to be. And I have never stated that you would embark on such an expedition. That would be reckless, unnecessary, and certainly no order given by consul Servius. Actually, I would like to see documentation proving that I specifically said the consul gave such an order.
What I did say, was that you, and others, would be used to attack Thracian forces in Thracian lands, yes. But I never said you would go on such a foolish assault as the one you suggest. Like I said, have your navigators check their maps, they're telling you that you're somewhere you're not. You, and others, like Lucius Aemilius is doing now, will be used to attack Thracian forces inside Thracian lands, yes. But with the intent to defeat them and scatter them before they reach our borders.
To think that Consul Servius would send you to Vicus Marcomanni, well...that's just silly. Take a look at the senate motions themselves. The senate tried to pass a motion to send you there. However; Consul Servius voted against the motion. You have nothing to worry about senator Quintus. You are in good hands, we would not let such a valuable man fall ill to a poorly thought campaign.
(OOC - Take a look at the latest save game, it's 255-winter-lucius.zip in the upload directory. Autoresolve the battle or whatever just so you can get a good look at where you yourself are. You're marching back to Viberi, :2thumbsup: , far, far away from Vicus Marcomanni and their overlord's army.
EDIT - Note that that save game was placed there before your post was made. Just a bit of a mix up, it's ok.)
Mount Suribachi
09-20-2006, 15:12
My my, how people deduce an entire strategy I have in mind based merely on my wondering out loud just what the Consuls plans are. What more can I say? You have already deconstructed "my" strategy.
UPS - I never said anything of any strategy you may have.
But when you accuse the consul of not knowing what he is doing, and of allowing other men to drive the course of history while he sits by and goes with the flow, then you should be quite ready for a lecture. Such things are a direct insult to the consul, who I have tried to explain to you is most certainly the man moving our current events more than any of our rival faction's leaders. Just because there are no blatant invasions or brash charges does not mean that it is not so. So far, they have all played right into his hands, and even the rather commendable attempts of the Seleucids to counter the consul's tactics have been defeated.
Mount Suribachi
09-20-2006, 17:51
I never said that you didn't know what you are doing. I said some men might think that. I never called for "blatant invasions" or "brash charges".
And despite all your posturing and lecturing and philosophising like some kind of Greek, you still haven't clearly explained your strategy in the east, aside from some vague and wooly cliches.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-20-2006, 20:59
He's got you there, Servius :laugh4:
UPS Maximus,
I believe you should find out if you can release the full details of what is planned initially in the East. Seems the Senate is getting "Twitchy".
UPS - Quite apparently so... I will dispatch a letter to consul Servius requesting his permission to divulge the full details of the plans for this consulship.
UPS Maximus - I believe that you should request that only the details of what is to happen in the Eastern regions in the next year or so be released. I don't believe that "plans for the Consulship" would be applicable or even relevant.
What was "planned" for the Consulship is stated in the Consuls pre-election manifesto. I'm sure the Senate will just be happy to hear of what the Consul has planned for the Two legions in the East already and what is planned for the Consular army I am currently leading.
GeneralHankerchief
09-22-2006, 20:06
I could have sworn that there were motions prohibiting the expansion into Asia Minor, but I guess I was wrong.
Nevertheless, hearing of the Consul's plans worries me greatly. I thought the general consensus was to stay on the defensive in the East?
UPS - There were motions prohibiting expansion into 'europe'. Asia minor can hardly be considered Europe.
From last we checked, the general consensus was never really shown the possibility of a significant victory in the east. The last few seasons have seen a turnaround in military power the likes of which could have never been accurately predicted. The consul has spent, on average, 4/5ths of the seasonal coffers on settlement improvement projects, and in 4 seasons time we have seen the loss of thousands of enemy soldiers, and six enemy generals, with very little cost to our own troops. You yourself will be landing in Afrika within two seasons Marcellus..an Afrika with no general at the head of any army, an africa which has been harassed and confused...and an Afrika, which, by next season, will likely be without 3 consular sized forces that it would have had four seasons ago, as one has already been destroyed, and a further two will likely try, futilely, to take Thapsus from the Consul's grasp.
Do you really doubt your nephew's judgement so much, despite the enormous success his consulship has so far enjoyed?
Mount Suribachi
09-22-2006, 20:31
Consul, I must admit I find your proposals for expansion into Asia Minor most disturbing, and possibly illegal. Furthermore, the coalition of Senators that brought you to power did so on the understanding that you were a proponent of no more expansion!!
Instead you turn your back on those Senators who gave you your leg up the cursus honorum and do secret deals with Tiberius "I'm better then everyone else" Coruncanius and Numerius "I'm the new Alexander" Aureolus.
I wonder what the esteemed Augustus Verginius would make of this?
In fact, I find it more than fascinating that you wait till he is out of contact with the Senate before proposing this outrageous plan!!!
May I suggest that you hold our current borders at Byzantion and Maronia and concentrate on winning the war in Carthage! If our 2 glory-hunting generals in the east cannot abide not fighting a battle for a season or two, tough!
UPS - Did that same group of senators though, also, not only advocate, but push through a motion demanding the conquest of Carthage, the conquest of Rhodes? The only part of those motions that was non-expansionist was the part that said no more expansion in Europe. Surely now you can't expect Asia to somehow instantly become part of Europe. The consul has clearly defined his plans for europe. The current borders are to be held, fortified, and maintained in Europe. Our European holdings which have been given specific note are those in Gaul, Germania, and the Danube.
The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.
GeneralHankerchief
09-22-2006, 22:21
The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.
You are deflecting the point, clerk. You know full well that it was your consul's goal not to expand anywhere this term aside from retaking Maronia, and conquering Rhodes/Carthage. We abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Obviously we wouldn't do this had we meant to hold onto them, no?
You accuse us of trying to define what Europe is and isn't. I see nobody in this room doing it. Clerk, do not deflect the issues here. Nobody who voted for your master (which would be everyone aside from myself and Senator Vatinius) did so under the impression that would expand further into the East.
UPS - Watch yourself Marcellus. Know your facts.
You abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Go back, look, delve into the statistics.
Servius never voted on that motion.
His feelings on the issue were conflicting, he knew it was necessary to leave the settlement then, but he knew full well it would be necessary to go back to it later. Voting yes or no on it then would have bound him to a position he was not in favor of in either respect. He had seen the middle ground, and abstained from voting on that motion.
GeneralHankerchief
09-22-2006, 22:43
Very well, I made a mistake. But it is still incredibly foolish to expand into Asia Minor.
Many the problems that your master faced when he came into office were a direct result of Roman overexpansion. And now we want to expand even further. Wow.
Next session of the Senate I intend to draft legislation making it absolutely clear that we are not to expand past Byzantion in the East. Then perhaps we will be able to actually consolidate.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-23-2006, 00:32
Conscript fathers,
Word has reached me that the invasion of Asia minor has already begun. There has been great consternation about this already, and therefore let me take an in-depth view of the matter in the light of the passed motions of the last senate session.
Motion 11.4: Byzantion is to be held against all odds and to the last man.
Clearly, this motion indicates a defensive strategy.
Motion 11.8: We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia
The question arises where the Eastern border of Europe lies. Does it lie in the Bosporus strait, as our first consul Servius claims, or is Asia Minor actually considered a part of Europe ?
A quick look in current scrolls on geography of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) show that the south-east boundary with Asia is not universally defined. Most commonly the Ural or, alternatively, the Emba River serve as possible boundaries. The boundary continues to the Caspian Sea, the crest of the Caucasus Mountains or, alternatively, the Kura River in the Caucasus, and on to the Black Sea; the Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, and the Dardanelles conclude the Asian boundary. So technically, Asia Minor is part of Asia.
However, the men living in the enlightened times of the Republic (OOC: West Europeans in the 21th Century) are under the assumption that Asia Minor (OOC: Turkey) is actually to be considered European (OOC: They're in the NATO). In fact, the population of that region would feel insulted if you implied they were not (OOC: As inheritors of the former Eastern Roman Empire they feel more European than 'regular Europeans', in which they have a point, they ruled half of Europe until mid-eighteenth century).
As one of these men, I certainly was under the assumption that this motion included Asia Minor under the heading of Europe. (OOC : We think of Europe (including Turkey) and the Middle East instead).
However, as has been shown, there are legal loopholes here which might be exploited, altough in show of this and further evidence, this would be hard to do with a straight face. Had I been aware of these loopholes, my motion would certainly have closed them, and in the discussions in the senate it was always perfectly clear I was opposing all expansion except into Carthage, Maronia and Rhodes.
Motion 11.10: We will not try to hold on to Nicomedia and Prusa
Clearly, the plan of the first consul contradicts this motion, altough it could be said that he followed the letter by abandoning them, and then recapturing them. I would not find this a very convincing line of argument however. Furthermore, these cities have been razed to the ground. What would be the point of capturing them ? They're worthless now. Let someone else pay for the reconstruction.
Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.
The words hold against Seleucia say it all. It clearly was the will of the senate to defend against the Seleucid empire, instead of invading it. Still, it might be argued that a good defense is a strong offensive.
After analyzing these points, I can add that the majority of voters that put my grandson in the saddle did so on the basis of specific conditions that I formulated and that my grandson agreed with, and I quote :
In the next senate session, I will advocate the conquest of Carthage, as that war will never end otherwise. On all other fronts I will support a policy of defensive warfare. To be more specific, we will not cross the Bosporus, we will not cross the Danube. I will support the conquest of Rhodes, but nothing else.
We have already crossed into Asia Minor and captured a settlement. So my grandson has broken faith with me and several other prominent senators personally, most notably Augustus Verginius, to my great regret. I have tried to sway him from this course, to no avail. On behalf of the Aemilia family I plead forgiveness from these gentlemen for this breach of faith. It was my influence that brought him to the position of first consul, to my deep shame.
I smell the corrupting hand of Numerius Aureolus in this turn of affairs. His silk tongue and visions of glory must have turned my grandson from the straight path, no doubt assisted by his equally vainglorious friend Tiberius Coruncanius. Under the guile of duty to the Republic all these men do is lust for battle, and to Dis with the consequences.
Ha, he is sly that one, I remember him rebuking me as uncivilized for enslaving the barbarians of Nicomedia, which is ridiculous in this day and age, then later, desperate for battle, he held the enslavement and plunder of Prusa for my eyes as a carrot to give him yet another mission.
Yet I could read the true intentions in his soul, and used them for the good of the Republic, for truly he is a skilled and usefull general. Unfortunately, my grandson, young and trustful, has been decieved by this man into going deep into the grey area at the border of direct motion violation.
Lastly, there is the military consideration. Would this new border proposed by the first consul be easier to defend ? Of course it would not be.
To summarize,
Legally, the first consul is clearly ignoring the will of the senate in the matter of the invasion of Asia Minor, altough a good legal staff might make a case that he is nowhere directly violating a senate motion, only indirectly.
Military, my personal strategic view of this action is utter folly.
Financially, I see this as money wasted. All this territory will need to be guarded and developed at enormous cost. Money which I wanted to see invested in our own cities. The long list of cheap temples already build do not make a dramatic impression. Most of our cities need expensive buildings, like baths and forums.
Personally, the shame brought on me by the breach of trust by the first consul with the voters that backed him has hurt me more deeply than a Thracian falx has done in dozens of battles.
Nevertheless, I will not take any further action as of yet, but if the Cartheginian campaign suffers major setbacks due to this I will probably reconsider that position.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: If I may raise my corrupting hand and interject at this point?
I certainly did propose holding the Maronia-Byzantion line against Seleucia. However, even before his election, the First Consul communicated to me that he believed it more sensible to defend the line he currently proposes in Asia Minor. I was happy to trust to his judgement in this, although at the time I did not anticipate that his strategy against the Seleucid incursions into Europe would be as stunningly successful as they were revealed to be in his autumn offensive.
Do not underestimate the First Consul, Senators. He is very much his own man and is, as you have seen, full of surprises.
Let us get to the substance of the matter, Senators, and not bleat about how you define Europe, when it is as clear as the nose on the venerable Augustus Verginius's face! This is not a legal matter. It is a matter of grand strategy. Why do Marcellus and Lucius Aemilius oppose the Consul's plan to form a defensive line in Asia Minor rather than the straits?
Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.
But if we are to fixate on the East, then of course the First Consul is right. There are many settlements in Asia Minor that lie within our grasp before the line the First Consul has sketched to hold Seleucia. Taking those settlements would increase our revenues at the expense of our mortal enemies and would not extend our forces, except for the requirement of some garrions.
This is war, gentlemen. A war we did not start. But a war with a potentially great power, like Seleucia. In such a war, you do not floor your enemy and then passively sit back. You do not wait for her to rise again and find new strength, to call on her great resources to strike again into your home and terrorise your people. No, Senators, in war, when your enemy is down, you kick him. Steal his weapons, tear off his defenses. Kick him and keep kicking him until he cannot get up.
The only reason I proposed stopping in the east was to spare resources for the invasion of Carthage. Given the destruction of most of the Seleucid field armies threatening us and the diversion of the Consular army to the east, that reason is no longer valid. We now have the men, let us do the job.
(Appius Barbatus): Honoured Fathers of the Republic, and revered generals,
It is with most humble gratutitude I address you today. My unending thanks must be given to my patron and father in law, Tiberius Coruncanius, for bringing me to this illustrious body.
In truth, though, I come here not only to honour him, but in fact to defend his good name. I grew up with his family, his children and kinsfolk, and heard many stories of Tiberius' stands against the Gauls many years ago; of the tragedy of Amulius and the hardship brought on his family with his loss; of his Consular war against those Macedonians who now lie as dead enemies of Rome; of Tiberius' willing and benevolent belief that his priests would help Lucius Aemilius in his own battles soon after.
And yet, today I hear this same Aemilius complain of vainglory in my noble patron. What am I to think? That Lucius has forgotten the great benefits that Rome has gained from the struggles which Tiberius and indeed the whole of the Coruncanii have endured, all because of quibbling over the language of a few laws?
I cannot believe that a great man such as Lucius Aemilius would have forgotten these things, so soon after the war with Macedon.
Let us lay aside these petty differences and look to the future of Rome, a future that ensures the safety of Ionia and the proper honouring of that homeland of our glorious ancestor Aeneas.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-23-2006, 01:19
Pah, Numerius, your reasoning is fluid and erronous as always.
First you clamour about the dreadful position the first consul has managed to get himself into and then carefully disguise the reason for this. The first consul has clearly decieved his backers even before the election, otherwise the Consular Army would have been send to Carthage under his uncle Marcellus instead of to the East under Manius Coruncanius and then the first consul would not have been in this situation in the first place !
Clearly, he has been plotting with you all along for the invasion of Asia Minor, to the detriment of the Cartheginian expedition. These facts make his deceit even worse than it already was. I can feel no pity for my grandson in the desert, altough for the Republic's sake, I hope he does not fall.
Appius Barbatus, welcome to his house. I hope you bring more honour to it than my grandson does. Your father is a mighty warrior and a honourable man, but since he has been campaigning with Numerius I have become unsure of his motivations, altough it pains me to say it. Some of my agents have reported questionable things to me, altough the true blame is surely to be found in my own family. I apologize to my old friend and comrade, Tiberius Coruncanius. I spoke in anger and I regret it.
Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.
Senator, I am sure none present doubt your ability as a general. It is you and the consul's ability as strategists that is under question. I am sure that you could fight off a full sized consular Seleucid Army with only a half stack Legion, but that only reinforces the fact that more troops are not needed in the east.
What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them.
My point exactly. You do not need more troops then the Seleucids. Heaven knows their generals are a speck of dirt compared to ours. You could kill the Seleucid war machine with half of their numbers, let alone more!
If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.
We would not need to debate the problem of the east if the First Consul had followed his manifesto and moved the consular army to Afrika. You sneer at the forces in Afrika like they are foolish, it is not their fault they are outnumbered! You boast of the size of your armies, yet at the same time you say how others need the legionaries more. What do you really believe? Are you such a poor general that you cannot beat an enemy unless you outnumber him? Or are you simply a selfish man who wants all the glory himself? I must say I am leaning toward the latter. "Alexander" eh? I spit at your feet "oh Great one"
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, the pleasure of working under you as First Consul is matched only by the pain of receiving your opprobrium on the floor of the Senate.
But do not talk to me of plotting and backers for the post of Consul! I care not for such games and you of all people should know I had no part in such shenanigans. You may forget that under your leadership I was made the whipping boy for war with Seleucia and Ptolemy by both Senators Marcellus and Servius Aemilius, but I do not forget. Faced with the prospect of either man becoming consul, still less my arch-tormenter, Augustus Verginius, I have devoted myself only to military matters and eschewed politics.
As for my dear Senator Libo, I do not know what I have done to deserve your venom. You really must learn to read between the lines. You have inferred that I wished or even requested the Consular Army to be diverted to the east. Yet all my words that you quote imply clearly that I do not think it wise. Even this very day, before the present acrimony in the Senate, I was thinking of writing to the Consul, urging him to turn the fleet back. But then I realised the fleet was almost at the coast of Asia Minor and such a request would be futile.
Indeed Senator Libo, you do not even have to read between the lines. Read my own words in the last session of Senate. Did I not propose that we stand on the defensive in the East in order to conquer Carthage? I am as bemused as anyone by the First Consul's decision to divert the Consular army. Was I not the man who first pressed him to disclose his intentions in this house? That request was made genuinely - I did not know his plans then and if I had been consulted, I would have said, precisely what you have intimated - I believe the Consular army is needed in Afrika not the east.
However, the First Consul is the First Consul and I am a mere humble general. Moreover, as I say, I have learned that the Consul is not a man to be under-estimated. He has constantly surprised me with the brilliance of his stratagems. When he has consulted me on matters of strategy, invariably my counsel has been declined in favour of his own plans. And invariably I have come to see that the First Consul's plans were better and that he was right to reject my advice.
Consequently, when faced with the diversion of the Consular army, I am prepared to be patient and hold my counsel. I suspect that the Consul will surprise his doubters by achieving far more than you currently believe possible. Unless, of course, you eunuchs succeed in framing legislation to neuter him in the interim session and constrain him to behave as you do.
GeneralHankerchief
09-23-2006, 03:49
Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.
One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.
Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?
And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.
Firstly I'd like to extend a welcome to Senator Appius Barbatus. Senator, you do not have to thank me for bringing you into this illustrious body, for to bring such a wise man as yourself into the Senate is merely another service I perform for the Republic!
Many things have been said of secret plots between myself, the Consul, and Aureolus. Many things, each one exactly as baseless as the last. Lucius, you may want to replace your "agents", they're either lying to you or are grossly incompetent. Same would apply to Valerius "I spent most of my 'career' sitting in Tarentum" Paullus.
Now let's clear up a few things, shall we? The Consul's plan was kept in secret. I found the details of it by reading the report as everyone else did. Perhaps the best proof that I had no hand in this plan will be that I will now speak against it. It is a poor plan. He merely intends to abandon one defensive position, and replace it with another. What's worse, he wishes to abandon a good one for a poor one. I would support an aggressive strategy, but such strategies must have a clear and valuable goal in mind. Drawing a border across the middle of Asia is not such a goal.
I would support one of two strategies.
I. Staying at or near the straits. Attacking armies across the straits, but not conquering.
II. Launching a conquest of Asia, not stopping until Syria is reached, and Antioch is captured.
The first one accomplishes nothing, but it easy to execute with no additional resources needed. The second one accomplishes much, but is difficult to execute and would require additional resources. The Consul has decided instead to combine the two into a strategy which accomplishes nothing and is difficult to execute!
What's worst of all, he has decided to divert the consular army to the east, an action I could never support. For one, it is not needed in the east. It would not be needed for the defensive plan, it would not be needed for the offensive plan, it is not needed for his quasi-offensive plan. Even more importantly, it is needed in Africa. It should have been in Africa already! The city of Carthage should already be in our hands. Long have I waited for the fall of Carthage. I'm getting somewhat impatient, I'm not going to live forever, you know! It seems we're not making any progress in Africa, and we should be. There will be much to explain come mid-term if Carthage has not been captured.
I bring to the attention of the senate that we have, thus far, only taken 3 settlements that are truely west of Rome. I am not hinting anything here, I just flat out do not think we should expand in the east an more. Rome is not the geographic center of our Republic anymore. Furthermore, if an enemy army came from the west, say from Iberia or Carthage for instance, they would have a few settlements to sack before laying seige to Roma herself. If the seleucids break past our defences, they are 10 settlements, some walled, and 2 seas away from Roma. We need to stop thinking about personal gain, and start thinking sense.
(Appius Barbatus): First, I must say that the deliberations and thoughts presented here are truly awe-inspiring. It will be quite a number of years before I am able to contribute as fully as this assembly deserves.
Because of my youth and inexperience, I hesistate to speak. However, I feel bound by my love for the Republic to do so.
The cry of "Cartago delenda est!" is alive and well in this chamber. And I agree, they pose the gravest threat to both the safety of our cities and the livelihood of our merchants close to home.
At the same time, after reading through the annales of recent action in the east, Numerius Aureolus may have a valid point, stating that Seleucia has been dealt a stunning blow. And Quintus Libo is correct in assessing that our troops and generals are able to defeat Seleucia on the battlefield with two of their men to one of ours.
But do we know to what extent Seleucia has been reduced? Have scouts and spies been sent to find out the true strength of their strongholds and troops at the present time?
A full conquest of Asia would, without a doubt, yeild a vast amount of wealth and secure Roma's grain supply for generations to come. It may be that this could be achieved at little expense in both legions and dinarii. Or, it could be that such an action would indeed be disasterous beyond compare, leading to an incursion into Roma itself as Quintus Libo has pointed out.
However, as the Poet has said, until the fog clears one cannot see. To know Seleucia's forces and defence would enable us to make a decision for the good of Roma, based on the clear sight of Diana rather than the soporific passions of Venus.
UPS - Marcellus, you're to arrive in Carthage soon..why don't you just wait to ask him yourself? Though I could probably guess the answer is because Carthage poses no real threat. By skilled generals they could be put to the sword, or given the run around, as has been clearly seen, the consul, alone in Afrika, has given the entire Carthy force the shaft for four seasons now. When you and Flavius Pacuvius arrive, with your consular sized armies you so adamantly demand, what is to prevent our swift victory?
I want to know where this sudden outburst is coming from, this horrible fear that you won't be leading a consular army. Where does this hail from Marcellus? Why do you feel that you will not be receiving a full compliment of forces before you disembark? Does it really matter which consular army you command? I should think not.
You wanted - A consular army, a tribune, and your chance at Carthage.
Consul Servius has already arranged for all of these things. AND, might I add. On time with his proposed departure for Afrika of a year and a half's time from the date of his election? You will be departing in two turns...with a consular army, with an Aemilii for your tribune, someone who shares your views on Carthage. What is your issue with the Carthaginian campaign?
I don't understand it. I think you are just barking up trees to see if you can startle the squirrels. The east is seasons away from you Marcellus, why concern yourself so much with it?
Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.
One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.
Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?
And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.
Mount Suribachi
09-23-2006, 15:20
Conscript Fathers, first of all I would like to apologise to our esteemed former Consul, Tiberius Coruncanius, I had wrongly accused him of being party to this madness. This is for 2 reasons, neither of them that we have agents feeding us false information. Firstly our current Consul himself has repeatedly stated that he has been having private discussions with Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerius Aureolus, naturally one assumes that those named are party to plans announced. Secondly, Senator, you must admit that your style in this house does have a touch of, shall we say, aloofness, in that you come across as regarding everyone else as your inferior (OOC: You remind me of Tribesman in the backroom....). However, I am gratified to hear that you regard the current consuls plans with the same bemusement as the rest of us.
Turning to those plans. Consul, you have communicated with me privately regarding my concerns over these plans. I shall not reproduce your letter in public, but forgive me if I answer your points in this forum.
You say that holding our borders at Maronia and Byzantion is impossible, shown by the fact we let 4 Seleucid armies across the straits. I say that we can't have been defending the crossing points properly! There are only 2 ways across the Marmara, one of them must have been undefended to allow this.
You say that we cannot see into Seleucid lands to ascertain their movements so we must eat into their empire. I say, do you have any idea how VAST the Seleucid Empire is? Theirs is a huge, sprawling empire, from the vast expanse of the Arabian desert to the high and mountainous Hindu Kush. Tell me consul, how will we watch their cities on the coastline of the Indian Ocean from a chain of forts in Asia Minor? If you wish to anticipate the Seleucid military, may I suggest a network of spies might be a cheaper and more effective manner of doing so.
You say that we need a "solid boundary", a "clearly visible line" and that a chain of forts in Asia Minor will produce it. I say there is no more natural, solid, obvious boundary than the coast and the sea! So many of us thought when we reached the Bosphorus that we had finally achieved a natural, lasting border. Its a deduction so obvious that it stuns me that some insist it isn't.
However, here I must also give credit where credit is due. Your proposals for a chain of forts protecting chokepoints on our northern and western borders is an excellent one, and one that I fully support. Which makes your decision to go beyond the natural chokepoints we hold in the South East all the more baffling.
Tell me Consul, for I cannot understand it, how is defending 5 points on a wide front easier than defending 2 points on a narrow front? Why is this obvious to everyone except you and Numerious Aureolus?
You say that you are spending 80% of our seasonal income on improving our settlements. I say that this a deceiving statistic on several levels. Tell me,what is our seasonal income? How much has it plummeted as we have sunk into war after war? How much has it plummeted as we find all the ports of the Mediterranean closed to us? How much has it plummeted as the wage bill for our ever growing army gets ever higher? What is 4/5ths of not a lot? We have a saying where I come from Consul, three fifths of knack all, and that is what your "spending" amounts to. And what have you been spending this money on? Minor temples and shrines to try and placate the plebs, thats what. I tell you Consul, this is akin to trying to heal a broken leg by drinking honeyed wine. Our Republic is vast, it has grown too quickly and our cities are under-developed. Our people need Viaducts, Forums, Agoras, Governors Palaces, Paved Roads, Auxilia and Integration and more besides and they are not cheap Consul. I do not have the financial reports in front of me, but I think I can confidently predict that constructing a Governors Palace and an Aquaduct would exhaust a single seasons income. And then there are the cities in Carthage that will need improving and integrating at great cost.
You ask me to trust you. I say I cannot trust you. You have betrayed the principles that brought you the Consulship and engaged in litigatious acrobatics to try and give your actions a veneer of legal respectability. Trust takes a long time to build, but is very quickly thrown away.
You say what have we lost if an expedition into Asia Minor fails. I say we lose the precious blood of Roman citizens, we lose the even more precious blood of Roman patricians. And we lose our Roman honour.
You say that you are in Afrika risking your life for the good of the Roman Republic. I say this is true. But I also say that you should concentrate on winning the war in Carthage before indulging in grand designs in the East. Tell me Consul, how many Carthaginian cities do we control? We did control Lepcis Magna, a wart on the edge of nowhere, but we couldn't keep hold of that. Now we control Thaspus, a nothing town. I doubt Carthage even misses it. I congratulate you on your campaign so far, you have repeatedly bested the enemy, but do not think that this war is over. Already we have lost 2 consuls in battle. Both died in wars that we are or were winning, do not think that you are immune from deaths grip. You have many, many, many battles yet to fight in Africa. Let us win the war there first, then we may look to the East. I say again as you boast of how you have given the Carthaginians the run-around, how many of their cities do we own?
Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.
Thankyou Numerius, I couldn't have said it better myself.
I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger.
Indeed, those 3 forces should be more than enough to hold the frontier for some time, even allowing a small reserve to head north to help stave off any Thracian incursions.
There is no danger.
Brilliant! Superb!! At last, all the blood that we have spilt has come to fruition! The deaths of our citizens has not been in vain! They have secured us from danger. Praise the Gods!
If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries.
How true. I fear greatly that unless more troops arrive in Africa that we shall lose a 3rd consul in battle, if only through sheer weight of numbers wearing his forces down.
The East is stable for now
Again, superb! Then let us focus our limited resources on where they are needed, not go trying to conquer the vast, enourmous lands of Seleucia. You say they are "on the floor". Numerius, I suggest you send a spy to explore their empire, see what they have at their disposal. I tell you, taking a handful of provinces off them in Asia minor would be like pulling a leg off a millipede.
And if I may labour the point about stabilising the east. We have so much that needs to be done, that we can now spare resources to do. Tell me, are there still huge Carthaginian armies on a couple of our islands? Have we conquered Rhodes as the previous Consul recommended, thus boosting our income? What about reinforcements for the Carthaginian campaign? We have a great many cities to conquer, all of which require garrisoning, or are we to do as we did in Greece and Macedonia and use Mercanaries to do it? Talk about throwing away valuable denarii. What about if Iberia attacks us?
Ahh, now there's a question. What if Iberia attacks us? A vast and fearsome barbarian people, and our greatest slayer of barbarians is unavailable...Have we thought about that? We all know that one day, sooner or later, they will attack us. As I say these words their armies might be moving up to assault our Gallic outposts. As long as they remain, we must never ever ever grow complacent about their threat.
Conscript Fathers, we still have many challenges to meet and problems to solve. Crossing into Asia Minor will not help.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Valerius Paullus, I have said that if it were my decision, the Consular army would be in Afrika. However, it is now off the coast of Asia Minor and the First Consul says he can muster a second to sail for Afrika in two seasons. So, let us not spend time debating past decisions, but focus on where we are now.
I would also like to say, on the matter of the communications between the First Consul, Praetor Coruncanius and myself, that such things were on strictly military matters about the movement of our specific armies each season. I am very grateful for the First Consul for consulting with us on these matters, although I repeat, he invariably followed his own course - not that of either the Praetor and myself - and I believe history has shown his course to be the most profitable.
But back to the big matters on hand - the questions of grand strategy. The issue of Afrika, I leave to the First Consul. I can only speak to the east. We have three virtually Consular sized forces now in the east. To use them merely to hold the straits would be wasteful. To send back the Consular fleet when a second will arrive in Afrika before it would also be pointless. They would arrive too late to be useful. Besides, we are obligated by law to take Rhodes and a fleet is required for that.
To remind Senators, the First Consul proposes the following frontier:
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/plans.jpg
Senators should note two things from this picture. First, there are only three Seleucid armies visible - and the area that our spies have mapped is rather wide. One Seleucid army, at Abydos, I have now destroyed. The other two, threatening Byzantion, I believe Praetor Coruncanius could destroy this season in two hard battles. Asia Minor would then be open to us. We have spies and we have other means of information (ooc: graphs of military). I can confidently repeat there is no danger. Seleucia has a significant military force of course, but it is spread out across its vast territories and indeed, it appears to be losing ground in the Middle East against Ptolemy. With the forces available and those posed against, the east is safe.
I accept Valerius Paullus gracious thanks for helping provide this security. But it is not an achievement to be lightly mocked. When we last debated before the elections, the situation in the east was grim indeed. Lucius Aemilius was forced to adopt a scorched earth policy, abandoning settlements to strong Seleucid armies marching into Europe. We faced multiple Consular armies, all now destroyed or about to be destroyed. Legio V was a shadow of its former self and Field Army I scarcely existed except in name. Senators, how much has changed! Do not dare take this for granted! And then to sneer at the First Consul and say you do not trust him! Do not trust him?! A man who has turned the tables on the mighty Seleucia in one season! Rome's security could scarcely be in better hands!
So, let us agree - the situation in the east is stable. Praetor Coruncanius asks what we gain by moving east of the straits. Look at the map, good general. What we gain is ten settlements. This is the other thing that Senators should note from the map. Ten Seleucid and Ptolemic settlements lie within a seasons march of the straits, within the red perimeter that the First Consul has drawn for our frontier: Pergamon, Abydos, Prusa, Nicomedia, Ancrya, Pessinus, Sardis, Smyrna, Mytilene and Halicarnus. Senators, this land is therefore a rich land, with many settlements. I doubt even the entire Afrika expedition will yield more then ten settlements. We can take and hold these settlements with the forces available. In time, they will cost us only minimal garrisons and greatly expand our revenues.
Senators, do not bemoan lost trade income. You may as well cry over spilt milk! The trade is not coming back. The die has been cast. Egypt, Carthage and Ptolemy are our deadly enemies. We will see no more trade from them. It is to land and to taxes that we must look for our future income. Stop whining about our past losses and think how can offset these with future gains!
But perhaps more important than the fact that we will gain ten settlements is that Seleucia and Ptolemy will lose them. Praetor Coruncanius, would you rather leave those settlements and each season watch cohorts of armed men raised from them, to march to the straits and spill Roman blood?! Two more battles, Praetor, then the east is open to us. By the blood of our men, we have earned those spoil of war. And by their naked aggression against us, Seleucia and Ptolemy have forfeited all rights to those lands.
Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders. However, I accepted that grim duty without complaint because I believed it necessary for our Afrika campaign. But, as I have said, the First Consul is a man full of surprises and a brilliant strategist. He has laid out a path that will allow us to carry out the Afrika campaign and make gains in the east. It would be a timid and wretched Senate that tries to thwart him on that path.
GeneralHankerchief
09-23-2006, 19:48
Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders.
So you would instead march to the point where our borders are no longer secure, then?
If you are confident in the amount of men being more than enough to face the Seleucids then perhaps some units should be disbanded. It would certainly help with our financial situation.
Contrary to what the good senator believes, there are other ways to expand our treasury aside from conquering.
Numerius Aureolus, you have swayed my mind for now. The consular army is in the east, and it should fight there. To send it back west would waste time and money, money we don't have. Taking Rhodes + the entire Agean Coast, as the First Consul has promised us, would boost our income significatly, allowing for more legions to be raised to fight in Afrika if neccessary.
Also, the First Consul has told us he has already put in the orders concerning another Consular Army to be raised and sent to Afrika. If he can indeed pull this off, and hand the Senate both Carthage and Seleucid lands, I say let him. In fact, I challenge him to do this.
If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.
StoneCold
09-23-2006, 22:51
Yes, initially I was also against the idea of expanding into the east, what with our budget and all, but as with things at the moment, it is more wasteful to be pulling forces back, might as well use it.
With the sercuring of the western asia minor, more sea trade will also results, which the loss of which some of you bemoan with the starting of war with the plotemies and selucides.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My congratulations to Praetor Coruncanius on his two great victories against the Seleucids. His tactics against the Seleucid phalanx line were exemplary and I will try to remember to emulate them if ever I am placed in a similar situation. But for now, the Seleucids have no armies in the field against us. The three armies visible on the map I presented earlier are destroyed, as were another three in the autumn offensive. This is a great triumph! How the tables have turned on our would-be invaders in less than a year!
If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.
There is a rather astounded look on UPS's face as reads from a recently received letter, direct from the consul.
UPS - The consul...Consul Servius says that he can promise every ounce of land he has proposed in the east, and a minimum of Hadrumentum, Cartago, Thapsus, and Utica. Hippo Regius, Capsa, and Lepcis Magna cannot be absolutely promised, but are within a lucky reason.
If he does not deliver on these promises, the consul is prepared to stand trial. However, he holds every ounce of belief that this will not be necessary, as the next consular army will be disembarking for Afrika earlier than expected, within the next season, instead of two from now.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-24-2006, 14:05
It is unfortunate that the first consul has chosen this course. The ten new settlements (two of which have been previously razed to the ground), will cost us a lot more money in garrisons and development than they will give us, except for Rhodes of course. We will also need much more (expensive) forces to guard that new border than it the previous two. This will no doubt be solved by hiring vast numbers of hideously expensive mercenaries. All in all, a financial nightmare. I can only hope the capture of Rhodes will slightly offset the financial damage we are about to do ourselves.
It seems we are determined to rule a great and weak empire filled with mud-baked huts instead of a mighty, smaller empire with marble cities. I wonder if future historians will see us as the bringers of civilization, instead of yet another conquering horde.
GeneralHankerchief
09-24-2006, 15:08
You know what, Senator Aureolus? You're right. But why not stop at just half of Asia Minor? You're such a god-like commander; it would be easy to take the whole thing! And while we're at it, why not Antioch? It is, after all, the Seleucid capital. Heck, what's stopping us from capturing the rest of the Levant? I hear it's really nice at this time of year. But that's just the start! After that, the majority of Seleucid metropoli lie across the desert! It's just a short walk to take Babylon and Seleucia, why not? But then, since we're destroying them, we might as well finish them off and take India too. Wouldn't that be great? Then our empire - excuse me, republic - would be really really big and we would be hailed as the greatest warriors ever and lots of people would throw us large parades featuring lots and lots of shiny confetti and beautiful women. Doesn't that just sound grand?
You, Senator Alexandriolus, are nothing but a spoiled child pointing at cities on a map and screaming "mine!" until someone lets you loose. So far the straits have been found to be easily defensible. I see no reason why we should abandon that position just to satisfy the quota of one man who is keeping track of his accomplishments so that he may one day be considered the greatest general ever to live.
UPS - You are a bit ill informed of our true financial situation Lucius.
For the record, when Consul Servius began his consulship, 14,000 Denarii was the seasonal balance available for use. The beginning of this season, (summer 254 bc), the first season of our consul's second year, has seen the season start with 20,000 denarii available for use. This is a 33% increase over the course of a single year. Now, quite surely, the taking of 2 mud-hovel cities in Asia Minor hasn't done us this great increase, but a combination of things.
The consul's new garrison program, which has been tested in and found to be quite valuable in Massillia. The consul's construction strategy throughout the Republic, which has boosted our ability to draw tax income without greatly upsetting the populace. And our small, but necessary conquests of Abydos and Nicomedia in Asia Minor.
Consul Servius has a far greatter level of economic and managerial acumen than you give him credit for. This season has seen the beginning of more expensive building projects, specifically occupations, the beginning or expansion of roman auxilia prefectures, and the expansion of the newly reorganised western fleet to accomodate a consular sized army.
The consul has made you yourself, the private promise, of 40,000 denarii a season profit by the end of his reign. That, a 100% increase, is only the increase expected over the next three years, the consul has four years left.
The marble houses you envision may not necessarily be finished in their construction by the time this consulship ends, as we simply don't have the necessary seasonal time available, but the money and pathway for such a vision will be available and clear.
(a hastily scribbled note from Appius Barbatus)
To the most illustrious Senate:
This will likely be my last communication with you for a good while, as I am preparing to carry out Consul Aemilius' orders and travel east. I pray that the Gods will smile on your endeavours and counsels in the behalf of our beloved Republic.
Also, if any of you have lost parchment recently in the Curia, please send a messenger to me and I will be able to restore it to you.
Vale.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-25-2006, 09:17
Conscript fathers,
Altough I remain a skeptic about operations in the East, at least one good thing has come of this venture. Molon, the slayer of my friend and former co-consul Publius Pansa has been killed in Pergamon. Even as I remain distrutful of the ambitious Numerius Aureolus, I do wish to thank him and the men of the Legio V for relieving this burden from my heart.
Let our enemies beware !
Roman honour will not go unstatisfied !
A Consul's death will always be avenged !
Senators,
I have heard just QUITE enough! Senator Lucius Aemilius, it is clear you have certain issues which potentially stem from not receiving command of this Consular Army however, I will not hold any personal feelings such as this against you. You were not slighted by this Consul, needs required the armies deployment before you could join us….that is all.
It appears though that for clarity I must spell some certain facts out to the Senate.
I do not wish to speak ill of a former Consul but suffice to say that under the leadership of the pervious Consul the Republic suffered. Not on the Battlefield but economically and tactically.
Building plans were started that were neither economically viable or cost efficient. Troops were recruited with seemingly no cohesion or overall plan and an Invasion of Afrika was conceived…..a plan that, on the surface was brilliant! But without any substance OR co-ordination!
We were to strike at Afrika and Carthage with THREE armies……there was only one ready when the Consul was about to strike. However, I have said this before and will not drag up old hurts.
What IS important is that is appears that the Senate is not considering how long it takes to recruit, transport and deploy a fighting force! Do they believe that a Consular army that is required in Afrika is just plucked up by the hand of Mars himself and placed into position??
Let me spell it out. How long do YOU believe it takes a Consular army to be moved from a staging point to deployment? YES, the Consular army I am currently in command of WAS to be one of the spearheads of attack against Carthage but there was no support. A second army was to be presented but this wasn’t even in recruitment stage.
What would you do with a Consular army that is just sitting in the field costing coin and eating grain? You USE it Senators! That’s what you do….you make the best use of what armies you have for an army doing nothing is worth less than nothing…..
So, at that junction when the current Consul made his choice, what did we have before us?
We had Carthage before us but too strong to attack.
We had Carthaginian forces on OUR islands but a Senate unwilling to allow these to be removed.
We had the Seleucids SORELY pressing our Eastern flank and threatening or Greek cities….indeed they had already taken such a city AND killed several Senators!
We were constantly advised by the previous Consul and others that the SELEUCIDS were the greatest threat, that if we didn’t do something, the Seleucids would be knocking on the door of the Senate in a few years time!
Does the Senate forget those recent times?
Acting BECAUSE of this situation the Consul decided that the Consular army I now command would be sailed to the East to help DEFEND us. Yes…..defend.
Ships were constructed. A fleet assembled and we took to the seas.
Then, due to the martial prowess of my Grandfather, Senator Aureolus and the commands of the Consul the Roman forces already there proved more than adequate to defeat those “undefeatable” Seleucid forces.
However, by this time the Consular army was well underway and further from Carthage than it was from the Eastern front.
Would you have the Consul turn us about and sail back? What then if the Seleucids suddenly deployed another few Consular sized forces? Were we to turn about YET AGAIN?!?
Would you have this Consular army forever in the seas, costing coin and eating grain. Doing Nothing?
Nay Senators, due to the time it takes for these things to occur it is best to set a course of action, complete it and THEN decide what is needed and is best for the Republic.
THIS Consul is looking beyond his own tenure of leadership. There are no short term plans here and the Republic will be greatly enriched and in a clean and hearty state for the next Consul…..plans will be clearly laid out and easily understandable.
The Invasion of Afrika still took place as the Senate requested. The Consul laying his own life on the line to satisfy this request. Also, can the Senate say that the Consul has “ruled out” the full completion of this plan?
The plan against Carthage STILL requires those two armies that were not started at the beginning of the Consuls tenure of care. Can you say he has NOT started recruitment of these armies? Can you say for sure he will NOT fulfil this requirement?
Why is the Senate so Obsessed with conquest of Carthage immediately? Plans take time, it appears many are not willing to allow time to construct a proper plan and execute it in the best tactical manner. Was that perhaps WHY the previous Consul was committing to an ill conceived and ill supported invasion? It is clear that certain members of the Senate would have the Republic embark upon certain actions that would devastate us, and now they berate the current Consul as he FLATLY refuses to be goaded into such rash actions just to appease those who politic and plot.
Immediately as the Consul came into his tenure the Republic had to commit to defence and action against the Seleucids. Why is it that some people have such short memories of how it was in those first days and the urgency that the Senate themselves gave to such action?
It is true that we do not, perhaps, need this Consular army in the East anymore. However, once embarked it was folly for us to withdraw from such commitment. Is it not best that this army be used to ensure the security in the East now? Then perhaps, who knows where best it will be deployed again? West, East, North or South….to me it matters not! It may matter to the Republic though.
Do not berate the Consul for merely completing the tasks that he HAD to initiate all those months, years ago even.
As for a defensive/offensive posture in the East. The military idem that “Offence is the best form of Defence” always holds true.
Did we just continue to defend the crossing against the Gauls who constantly threatened at Massilia?
No, we went on the offensive, destroyed the Gauls heartlands and defeated the enemy. Perhaps, in hind-sight, we were wrong not to attempt to occupy more of their settlements but, at the time, we did what we thought was best and economically sound.
Is the situation in the East and Asia-Minor very different from that? Do we not face a similar situation, with an enemy bent on constantly throwing their armies at us? Would it not be best for the Republic to, again, sally forth and ensure the Republics stability by fatally injuring our enemies?
I do not preach the conquest of the Seleucid empire, what I do prescribe to is the establishment of a more defensible border and several buffer states between the Seleucids and some of the most advanced cities outside of Roma herself!
Asia-Minor is NOT Europe….otherwise it would be called Europe.
The Motions passed to abandon certain settlements in that area was based upon the assumption that we could not, under any circumstances, keep control of them under the Seleucid offensive. This has proved wholly inaccurate now as all have seen.
Carthage is still a Primary concern and one that this Consul chooses to deal with…..but WHEN it is tactically BEST for the Republic to do so and NOT when it pleases certain individual Senators!
This Consul is committed to ensuring the lasting security of the Republic. The construction of Forts to hold back our war-like neighbours. Committed to the continued investment in our internal infrastructure and committed to ensuring that HE passes on a healthy and powerful Republic to the next Consul.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-25-2006, 11:25
I applaud senator Manius Coruncanius's verbosity, but there are some distortions of the truth and vile slanders I take exception to.
Senator Lucius Aemilius, it is clear you have certain issues which potentially stem from not receiving command of this Consular Army however, I will not hold any personal feelings such as this against you.
As the current consul Servius will verify, I have repeatedly offered to take over dead-end positions like Viberi, in order that our less experienced generals can get some battle experience. On being asked what position I desired, I told him it mattered not to me, whatever was convenient for him. So this is clearly a vile slander.
I do not wish to speak ill of a former Consul but suffice to say that under the leadership of the pervious Consul the Republic suffered. Not on the Battlefield but economically and tactically.
Except for some hollow phrases, I have not heard one concrete example of mistakes made on my part. I also consider this a vile slander.
If it had not been for the pressure put on me by the senate under the leadership of the warmonger Numerius Aureolus, a war with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid Empire could have been avoided.
We were constantly advised by the previous Consul and others that the SELEUCIDS were the greatest threat, that if we didn’t do something, the Seleucids would be knocking on the door of the Senate in a few years time!
Actually, I never said such a thing. On the contrary, on several occasions I advised the 'Seleucid threat' to be ignored and the Consular Army send to Carthage (It was already on the border of Sicily by that point).
As for a defensive/offensive posture in the East. The military idem that “Offence is the best form of Defence” always holds true.
Ah, another proponent of endless expansion to the shores of the Indian Ocean in order to 'secure' our border.
Did we just continue to defend the crossing against the Gauls who constantly threatened at Massilia?
Actually, we did, for a very long time, because it is such an excellent defensive position, just like the Bosporus strait was.
Lastly, I wish to state that my words in the senate offer this house the benefit of my wisdom accumulated in two terms of consul and over 30 years of fighting for the Republic. The consul himself has often expressed the value of this advice. This does not say my strategy and tactics are necessarily the best. The first consul may very well make true on all his claims. It is the first consul who makes the decisions. Yet, the moment we have 'heard enough' in this house we may as well appoint another king. We can never 'hear enough' in the senate.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
If it had not been for the pressure put on me by the senate under the leadership of the warmonger Numerius Aureolus, a war with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid Empire could have been avoided.
Ah, Lucius, it seems that you too have now joined the camp that seeks to rewrite history and blame me personally for being attacked by Ptolemy and Seleucia. Still, perhaps I should be grateful that you explicitly rejected such an absurd position while in office.
I would be interested to hear exactly how you think I provoked the war - surely you are not going to resurrect the canard about insignificant Debeltos being the spark? I would also be interested if you can find any evidence that I played a leadership role in the Senate during your time in office. It may be my imaginings, but at times it felt more like there was a vast pacifist conspiracy against me. Anyway, I was just a young tribune, scarcely turned twenty. I suspect you overestimate my importance.
As you say, it is the First Consul who leads. If we took actions that hold us responsible for other nations attacking us, I submit that the ultimate responsibility lies with you. If so, it would be quite a mistake. To blame the Senate and a young tribune for such a mistake seems rather unworthy of a man of your age and reputation.
But of course, I myself do not believe such an absurdity. The only mistakes were those of Ptolemy and Seleucia, as Molon has now found out, and as other successor generals and settlements will soon realise.
After two years of conflict with Seleucia and Ptolemy, surely Rome can unite around our struggle with tham, rather than foolishly scapegoat the men leading the war against them?
Except for some hollow phrases, I have not heard one concrete example of mistakes made on my part. I also consider this a vile slander.
No, of course, Lucius, your period in office was flawless. Nonetheless, does not losing two Co-Consuls seem, at the very least, a little careless?
What I had “heard enough” of Senator was the constant impatience regarding a Conquest of Carthage and the harsh words spoken against the Consul, I am a stanch republican Sir, to suggest otherwise is likely to slander me as much as I have apparently slandered you.
The plans the Consul has are sound, I have been privy to many and like you, advise him on some aspects….though my word does not have the “gravitas” that yours does.
I do not wish to Slander sir but when I looked at the state of the Republic when the Consul took over….my mind spiralled! Why were their Cavalry in a Republican city as Garrison troops?? Why was there alie troops embarking for Tarentum? Why so many Roman troops seemingly stationed in cities awaiting orders? There are other economic plans also but I will speak no further other than to say that the situation was Confusing in the least.
Whilst, perhaps you did not directly state that the Seleucids were the greatest threat we faced, I have not had the chance to check the Senate records, it was certainly the impression within the Senate at the time that they were…..perhaps the defeat and killing of my dear tutor Senator Pansa had something to do with that?
Can you deny that this was the feeling in the Senate?
As for our historic issue at Massilia. What you say is at least partially true. The Republic did wait, we waited for the coin and a commander to perform the task.
Unfortunately due to that “delay” we were defeated, an Eagle taken and a Noble Roman’s name besmirched. Would you taunt fate again?
Senator, I do not doubt that you will perform what tasks are best for the Republic. What I call for now is that the Republic be patient with regards Carthage, it may even appear that our Consul may settle this issue ALONE shortly!
What will those voices in the Senate say about Carthage when our Consul controls their Capital city?
Criticise what you will but at least allow such things that are still in progress to become apparent before you globally condemn.
Do you at least accept that, it would be folly to reverse my Consular armies course now? A plan is set, it must be completed to ensure long term success and ascension for the Republic and woe for our enemies.
The Consul does not plan constant conquest. Why would a man commit to a fortified border if that border was to move?
You have your opinion and if you feel a fortified border in Asia-Minor is NOT the best course of action then you are entitled to that opinion and I will accept that. Obviously, what I cannot accept is this constant “why haven’t we invaded Carthage” nonsense, and with the latest Consul reports perhaps you feel the same about that now?
However, Molon is dead, will you not join me in a goblet of wine at his destruction, to Senator Aureolus’s continued health and the fulfilled vengeance of the Republic against him?
Later we will debate what is the best course in the East until the crows fly high above the Senate building and the sparrows have laid themselves abed.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-25-2006, 12:22
Why were their Cavalry in a Republican city as Garrison troops?? Why was there alie troops embarking for Tarentum? Why so many Roman troops seemingly stationed in cities awaiting orders?
The cavalry were the only troops fast enough to arrive there to supress the unrest before a revolt took place. The Auxilia garrisons were moving to Tarentum for transport to Southern Greece where they would take over garrison duties from the expensive mercenaries. As to the Roman troops, I am unsure what you mean. Doubtless, there was a good reason for that as well.
Can you deny that this was the feeling in the Senate?
No.
What will those voices in the Senate say about Carthage when our Consul controls their Capital city?
Hooray ?
Do you at least accept that, it would be folly to reverse my Consular armies course now?
Yes.
However, Molon is dead, will you not join me in a goblet of wine at his destruction, to Senator Aureolus’s continued health and the fulfilled vengeance of the Republic against him?
I'll definately second that :2thumbsup:
Good. Then it appears Senator Aemilius, we have reached an accord currently and hit upon a possible issue with regards the transition of power between Consuls.
The Senate should perhaps use this interim period to debate if there is a way that a Consuls “on-going” plans are better communicated to his successor to that there is no misunderstandings?
I trust that you know I will be drinking “with” you even though I am currently at sea. Besides the wine may steady my heaving stomach!
I do see a potential issue with Carthage. Should the Consul capture Carthago, what will he do? What should the Senate instruct him to do?
On the face of it, he has insufficient forces to hold the city but perhaps he is best to answer that question.
Personally, I feel it would be a sore shame and a reverse of his good fortune so far to abandon such a city as, like Byzantion before it, the city is such a prize as to be worth the keeping.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The issue of Carthage is an interesting one. I agree with Manius that it might be best to try to hold the city until the arrival of the Consular army frees up the Consul to move once more. I would be interested to hear the First Consul's intentions on this.
Abandoning Thapsus is quite understandable, but perhaps we can hold walled Carthage? If the Consul's intention is to break the Carthaginian armies in combat, surely holding Carthage will bring them to him like moths to a candle?
Whilst we await a response from the Consul on what his plans may be for Carthago, I have been reviewing the Motions in effect for this Consulship and request an update from the Consul on a few matters.
Firstly, Motion #11.07 – I cannot recall, have the relevant constructions been started as yet to permit citizenship for Capua and Ancona as yet? The Economy is starting to regain its vigour and the funds should be allocated for this soon if they have not been already.
Motion #11.11 – I wondered how progress goes upon this Motion? Has this had a significant impact in our main cities yet?
Motion #11.13 – I am aware of the progress relating to this motion but am not aware about the allocation of Chirurgeons to the armies in the region?
UPS - I have received a letter from our consul. It appears that Servius has found the Cartago siege to be another Lepcis Magnian victory, the only defenders were a unit of Carthage's 'sacred band'. They were said to have fought bravely, but our victory suffered such minimal losses against such a pitiful garrison that writing a report would do nothing more than waste space.. however. He sends a message of deep concern to him for your review.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/consul%20reports/ibnorth.jpg
These Iberian forces were encountered last season, they were hidden in the woods and blocked our way to establishing the proposed fort on the western river. They have not moved this season. Servius suggests a minor upgrade to the strength of the legion to try and appeal to their logic and see that a confrontation would benefit neither side.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/consul%20reports/Clipboard10.jpg
The Iberian forces near our Comata fort are also of deep concern. The fort has not been besieged, but we feel quite strongly that they are trying to discern the legion's strength. The consul would like to up the garrison with mercenaries until the Iberians move on, at which point it will be upgraded to a full consular sized legion.
Oh, and due to the significant number of developments this season, the consul has been considering releasing yet another report, although somewhat early, he feels the circumstances warrant such.
(OOC - Much has happened since the last report at the beginning of the summer season, so I'll announce later tonight when I've put up the next report, I'd like to get a few more things done before then, but I'll let everybody know in the ooc thread when it's ready.)
This development worries me somewhat. Recall that the Macedonians made several incursions into our territory before launching an actual invasion. They may be looking for weak spots. I would recommend concentrating forces as much as possible, as they may not be able to resist attacking a weak force if they come across one, if their intention is indeed to get into a war.
May I ask the consul to post a map of as much of the current world as we know of along with his new report? The situation on other wars, such as the Iberia vs Germania war will be invaluabe to this house.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Praetor Corucanius makes a valid point, but we should recall that ultimately facing off with Macedonia did not avert war. I was but a youth at the time, but I believe they struck at a weak spot - perhaps even a settlement - well away from where we were confronting their most provocative moves. If so, I would advise that each province bordering Iberia have a significant force of men, so there are no easy pickings. [occ: in MTW, the AI would attack if your force in a border province was weak - maybe RTW is the same?]
I would also recommend that we move at least one and preferably two Lower House generals to Gaul to face off against a potential Iberian incursion. I am not up to date on their current location and assignments, but I wonder if Qintus Libo and/or Valerius Paullus are best positioned to assume such a duty? While deterrence must be the priority, we should also prepare for the contingency of war. A competent general might be able to defeat a much larger Iberian army, whereas otherwise we could lose an entire legion in a sneak attack.
We are sorely missing Augustus Verginius from the Lower House, but nevertheless, I ask that my father-in-law be moved away from immediate danger. It would be a poor end to an illustrious career if he were killed while attending to civic duties. (ooc: die in an autoresolve).
I would end by saying that we should not be over-alarmed by the Iberian movements. My astrologer and the augurs have not predicted imminent war with that faction, although I admit their vision is not always perfect. Iberia is still locked in a war with Germania. And we, as a Republic, are considerably more powerful than she. Iberia may prefer to focus on the conflict to her north, so long as we to her east do not appear weak.
UPS - We know nothing of the war between Iberia and Germania, other than that it is still occurring. We have no spies, diplomats or other men with significant enough knowledge in that area, or any area outside of direct Roman interest, to provide anything more than the maps which are currently available in the consular reports. If there is a quick responce to this issue that doesn't require an inordinate amount of seasonal income, I will propose a resolution to this problem to the consul.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In the absence of the Senate Librarian, I asked one his scribes to compile some simple information on our situation relative to our rivals.
As you can see, we have overtaken Seleucia as the pre-eminent power in the known world:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3329/overallsu254jv4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
You can also see the dramatic effect of our recent victories over Seleucia on the balance of power:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2894/militarysu254th2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
However, it should be noted that our military power is still only a third of that of all our enemies combined.
Conquests have made us the most populous faction:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7020/popsu254mx4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Our number of provinces has risen at a rapid rate since the end of the Apollonia mission and the vigorous prosecution of war into Greece and beyond:
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8350/landsu254iu0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The loss of trade income following war with Ptolemy and Seleucia has affected all three parties:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5964/financesu254ox8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The present First Consul has made progress in improving our balance. However, Seleucia appears to have bounced back to an alarming degree. This suggests that, while we may have crushed her armies in the field, she has the resources to replace them and come back at us in strength. Ptolemy has not recovered, while Iberia and Carthage earn significantly less than we do.
After a very shallow period following the outbreak of war with Macedon, Illyria and Thrace, we do appear to be producing more: (ooc - is this buildings or what?)
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9236/productionsu254ok8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The graphs also reveal something on the state of the Germano-Iberian conflict. There appears to be something of a territorial impasse, although Iberia's military rises while that of Germania falls.
Many thanks, Numerius. I am sure I speak for all present when I this information will help us gather a better picture of the world, no matter how removed we may be physically from the front lines.
Avicenna
09-26-2006, 14:11
Well well senators, what have we here? After I return to Rome I hear of this kind of behaviour by our barbarian neighbours. The senate was foolish to neglect the Iberian threat, and now they seem to have picked the perfect moment to strike, when our troops are trapped in the deserts of Africa and fighting the Greeks iin the Asia Minor region.
Personally, my point of view (if members of this august body respect it) is that the wars must be brought to a halt. Our holdings have extended too far in the East, and our merchants are running riot far away from the reach of the law, growing ever more corrupt, reckless and extravagant the deeper we go into the Greek lands. The Carthaginian campaign is a worthy one, though, I must say. These barbaric people are too powerful and too close to our lands for my liking, and the threat from them should be neutralised, as must that of the Iberian scum.
I am confident that the Greeks will see the reasoning and logic behind this proposal, and will too want to sue for peace, and resume normal relations. Our economy should skyrocket if this should happen, and our citizens will be able to live in peace, not needing to fear the Greeks.
Mount Suribachi
09-26-2006, 14:31
The complications never seem to end
THEN STOP MAKING MORE COMPLICATIONS BY INVADING TERRITORY WE DON'T NEED TO INVADE!!!!!!
However, Seleucia appears to have bounced back to an alarming degree. This suggests that, while we may have crushed her armies in the field, she has the resources to replace them and come back at us in strength
AT LAST!!! By the gods, AT LAST!!!!! It has finally penetrated into that golden-haired head of yours that Seleucia has a vast empire with limitless resources. Furthermore their empire, unlike our empire is a homogenous and well-developed one with every province able to contribute a wide range of troops.
How many times have I and others warned about this? And how many times have Numerius Aureolus and Servius Aemlius and Manius Coruncanius listened to these warnings? I'll tell you how many times oh noble Senators of the greater Roman Empire - not once! Time and again my pointing this out has been ignored. Until now. Clearly Numerius has stopped daydreaming about his own beauty or his next conquest long enough to actually think about the wider picture.
And to boot, we now have a nervous Consul and others wringing their hands about Iberia. Again, HOW MANY TIMES DID I WARN ABOUT THIS AND WAS IGNORED??????
I give up Senators, I give up. Numerius, feel free to conquer every city between Byzantion and the Indian Ocean, I won't stand in your way. I may even propose it at the next session of the Senate. But I might enjoy watching you weep when there is nowhere else left to conquer.
*rips off Senatorial toga and storms out of the house*
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
It has finally penetrated into that golden-haired head of yours that Seleucia has a vast empire with limitless resources.
Senator, this is is not exactly news to me:
Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies....
The point is what do we do about it? My proposal is that we make the Seleucid Empire a little less vast and their resources a little more limited. But apparently that is just crazy talk.
I am shocked by the words of Senator Valerius Paullus, he calls our beloved Republic an “Empire”?? Why does he think so…..
We are no “Empire”, WE do not and have not initiated these wars….but sure as the sun arises each day by Jupiters grace we will certainly FINISH these wars!
Senators, does Senator Paullus forget that all we have strived for is Peace and that at every turn we are turned back from our neighbours who covet our cities and our coin. Our Diplomats have long sought peaceful resolution to the issues we have around us but we constantly find that the ONLY talk that is understood by our enemies is the singing voice of a swinging sword!
Iberia has NOT being ignored, forts were built to defend our borders against her and may I remind the Senate that although Iberia appears “threatening” and certainly is an issue the Consul is aware of, Iberia has yet to launch any attacks against us. With the bravado so common with the Barbarians of the North, the Iberians constantly foray into our lands and return safely home to speak tales of how “brave” they were, how “successful” as warriors they are and needless to say how Large their Testiscolos are….
One day, perhaps, they will have built sufficient false bravado, or enlarged their Testis enough, from their own stories that they tell around the fires in their barbarian hovels to actually ACT upon them and strike at us, but let me say this….we will be ready.
We are unwilling, and rightly so, to pre-emptively strike against Iberia whilst they remain neutral to us. It is also needless whilst they remain nothing more than bluster and hot air. If or when they prove themselves more than that, I will be happy to be re-assigned to aid in their destruction as we did their fellows in Gaul. Also, let me remind the Senator that Iberia is still stuck in a long and protracted war with our Allies the Germains.
Suffice to say that we cannot act or re-enforce if we do not know WHERE to act or re-enforce. All we can do is build fortifications and wait. The Consul has announced plans for at least one Consular sized formation in the region, I feel the Senate should be content that he is aware of an dealing with the situation in the West.
The Situation in the East will be finished soon enough. As Numerius Aureolus suggests, we act to reduce the threat now and the threat in the future. Not only from Seleucia but also the Ptolomites. Perhaps when they have both been shown the full force of our wrath will they succumb to a negotiated peace……history tells us this will still not work, but I always live in hope.
Senator Paullus, your warnings have not gone unheeded, perhaps you would feel happier if we initiated a strike against Iberia and stop all this nonsense? Perhaps you would feel happier when more legions are in place? However, as I have stated time and again, the building of new legions takes time and coin….many Senators appear to have insufficient funds of one but an excess of the latter.
I am happy to say that with our Current Consul we are fighting but ONE war. The War against Seleucia but through that we will chastise not only them but also the Ptolomites.
What of Carthage, you say. Isn’t that a war…..well Senators, how can it be a war when we so easily capture their own Capital city? How can it be a war when our Consul, with but a handful of Roman cohorts has managed to out flank and out fight forces near twice his size? Soon, another Legion will land and that “war” will be all but over.
Soon the war against Seleucia will be over and our borders re-defined so that they and the Ptolomites are FORCED to recognise we have the Gods GIVEN right for peace!
(writing while on march to the southern harbour)
To our Noble Senators,
It is clear that there are two camps who are skirmishing in our very own Senate: those who wish to prosecute the war against Seleucia, and those who wish in the main to hold what fronts we have and focus on internal matters.
Does anyone know how long it would take to reach an acceptable level of internal stability? And how is that acceptability to be defined?
I do not ask rhetorically. There must be an answer to these questions, and I think in fact we *need* clear answers to these questions. The First Consul has draw a clear line in the sands of Asia Minor. Perhaps it is my inexperience which prevents me from seeing clearly, but those opposed to him have yet to clearly define that which they desire, except that they desire the Senate to put a halt to the Consul's plans.
If no one knows the answer to these questions, I will have some of my staff pursue an answer in the Senate libraries.
Vale.
(staff of Appius Barbatus)
Revered Senate,
I lay before you the figures requested by Senator Barbatus.
To bring a province from enslavement to the production of troops requires a total of nine years and three seasons, at a cost of 27000 denarii. This shows the citizens and slaves that we are here to stay, and brings some basic order to the province (ooc: +15%)
To honour the Gods fitly by destroying all foreign temples and building Roman Shrines and then Minor Temples in their place requires two years, at a cost of 4800 denarii. This provides a significant benefit to the order in a province over time (ooc: +40%)
To provide basic sanitation by providing sewers takes one year and one season, at a cost of 3500 denarii, with a slight increase in public order (ooc: +5%)
To provide entertainment to the populace by building an Odeon requires one year and one season, at a cost of 8000 denarii. An Odeon, though expensive, has the greatest impact on order in a province of any single building project (ooc: +10%). Especially in Greece where they like this sort of thing.
To bring all of these things to a province would require fourteen years and one season, at a total cost of just over 43000 denarii.
Senator Barbatus leaves it to the opponents of Consul Aemilius' plans to outline how many cities they would wish to bring to the level of producing troops in Greece and Asia Minor before further expansion, and if an acceptable level of development would also include honouring the gods and providing for the health and public order of provinces.
GeneralHankerchief
09-26-2006, 20:45
If I may direct you gentlemen to another motion Senator Aureolus has proposed:
Motion 11.19:This house requires that any campaign in Carthaginian territory in Africa be aimed at permanent occupation, not raiding and subsequent abandonment.
As you may recall, this motion was passed by an 11-1 margin, with myself being the sole dissent. However, it seems as if now, there are more dissenting voices to the motion, mainly our esteemed Consul.
Now, let's look at the recent results of the Expedition. Lepcis Magna and Thapsus taken, and subsequently lost. While I admit that Lepcis Magna was lost through no fault of the Consul's, Thapsus was captured, its people enslaved, and it was back in the hands of Carthage two seasons later. Sounds like a raid to me.
not raiding and subsequent abandonment
Thapsus, however, must be abandoned
I want to hear no talk about how it was a poorly-worded motion, or how that the Consul did it for the greater good. The fact is, that Servius Aemilius has broken the letter of the law, and the letter of the law is what counts.
I shall leave it up to this august body as to decide the punishment.
UPS - The 'peace party' does not care about those numbers senator Appius. They think denarii grow on trees and can be plucked from their branches like olives whenever we need them. On the other hand, Servius does, and has taken the most beneficial approach by spreading our public order constructs throughout the whole of the region as efficiently as possible, as well as isolating our most prominant choices for troop recruitment as quickly as possible. Though they will only provide alae at first, having auxilial recruitment centers far from the heart of Rome is better than having nothing out their at all, a situation that they chronically complain of.
And as far as Valerius Paullus's rantings. There is no way that this man, behaving the way he has, can expect us to respect his opinion, or, for that matter, even believe that he truly is an advocate of peace and prosperity, when his own personal behavior has him screaming like a mad man and throwing his toga at the senate. There is a blatant air of jealousy here, because the falsely named "peace party" did not get its way with the election of consul Servius. And this fact shines through brightly in Paullus's behavior.
EDIT - It is true that Thapsus had been momentarily devoid of Roman troops so that Cartago could be taken. However, we have visible, undeniable proof that the settlement was not actually 'abandoned', but was bribed back by Carthage before it could be re-garrisoned. Therefore, the law was never broken because the settlement was bribed away from our hands before it could actually revolt, and be considered abandoned by Roman hands. Perhaps we should punish Marcellus for conspiring to untruthfully implicate the consul in the breaking of a senatorial motion, or otherwise just behaving as a fool, and a poor supporter of his own family. And another thing, our intention is most certainly to take and hold Thapsus by the end of this consular reign. The motion makes no distinction that a settlement must be held at all costs from the very moment it is taken. The motion specifically states - Any campaign. Our operations in Afrika as a whole constitute a campaign, yes, our operations in Afrika are aimed at permament occupation, yes. Can the unforetunat loss of one settlement, momentarily due to bribery, that will be returned to as soon as possible, constitute a breach of the intentions of the campaign? No.
GeneralHankerchief
09-26-2006, 23:08
Ah, so you only had the intention of breaking Roman law and defying the will of the Senate. My mistake.
As for the definition of "campaign," it still does not matter. The point of the law was to take and hold Carthaginian settlements when they were most valuable to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Thapsus with half the population and much less buildings of worth is less valuable to us than a Thapsus that was never conquered.
As for me not supporting my family, I don't want to hear it. You, Servius, decided to oppose me for Consul after I had declared my candidacy (informally, but still). You openly defied the wishes of the Aemilii by further expanding the Eastern border. You openly call Valerius Paullus, an Aemilius by marriage, raving mad when your own father is a certified lunatic. You search for ways to exploit loopholes in motions in order to further the glories won by your puppeteer, Numerius Aureolus. As far as I am concerned, you sir, are a treacherous dog and not worthy of the name Aemilius.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-26-2006, 23:12
Actually it is exactly for economic reasons that I am opposed to needless extra expansion into Seleucid territory. It would say it is the 'war party' that believes gold will rain from the sky. I take the long term view.
Consider, each conquered town will provide income, but will need massive investments over a very long period of time before it is a stable, loyal, town with taxes set on high.
Also, the more territory we acquire the more troops and ships we will need to guard it all, at a large financial cost, both in recruitment and maintenance.
The more of these rebellious towns we acquire, the thinner the meager financial resources we have will be spread. Meanhwile the populations in all the towns will continue to grow, forcing us to lower taxes to keep the unrest under control, lowering out resources even more and incidentally increasing the growth rate of the population, so it will quickly require another drop in taxes.
For myself, I would be satisfied enough with the internal stability of the Republic to warrant expansion if the majority of the cities (especially the large ones like Athens, Corinth, Pella and Thessalonica) have been stabilized so far that we can leave a two-unit garrison and still be able to set the taxes on high.
I appreciate the clear answer that Senator Lucius Aemilius has given. And I think the Senator brings up a valid concern, that financial gains will not be won by conquest alone. It is conquest coupled with builders, merchants, and garrisons that bring the great financial rewards we seek.
Putting aside for the moment the Seleucid army and their raids, I think that it could be beneficial to consider which is the better option financially in the case at hand. Will we gain more financial control from conquest, or from consolidation? Stabilising cities until they can be left with a two-unit garrison is indeed ideal. However, at what cost and how many consulships in the future will that be reality? Would expanding our borders bring in greater income in a shorter time?
Certainly these questions are not subject to Xeno's paradox. I will order my staff's wheat counters to double their efforts and consider this along with their other duties.
Currently the History of our Republic has been thus:
We are at peace and building for our betterment, then we are attacked or directly threatened so we respond until that threat has been neutralised, then we start to build again.
Until such times as those states around us acknowledge that we are not war-mongers but only respond to what pressures they exert against our own safety then I foresee that this circle of development, interrupted with warfare then followed by development again will continue.
It does not take a Greek to understand which segment of this cycle we are in currently.
Death the destroyer of worlds
09-27-2006, 08:45
OOC : It's impossible for me to argue with this argument. As long as we keep running this game on VH/M we will need to expand continuously according to your argument as they will never offer peace on this setting.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius seeks to use one of my motions to impugn the integrity of the First Consul. But my motion was worded quite precisely: it speaks of the aim of the campaign. When Marcellus's Consular army arrives, I am sure we will see the conquest of Afrika underway in full.
But taking Carthage already with what was only a Praetorian army in far away Lepcis Magna is a significant coup for the First Consul. It would not have been possible if Thapsus had had to be defended against multiple Carthaginian armies. Moreover, I believe Thapsus was not raided - no buildings that could be of any use to us were destroyed.
If Carthage were abandoned, I would have some sympathy with Marcellus. But as it is, I fear what we are seeing is sour grapes from the loser of the last election. I confess I do not understand this embittered stance - Marcellus has been given command of a Consular army and is about to launch a significant campaign; he can also stand for election as the successor to the current First Consul.
Members of the Senate,
My report on my Consular armies first combat action has been posted.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senators,
Word of a great battle near Carthago has reached even my ears, here in Abydos! I have heard the accounts of the battle between Servius and the Carthaginians, and must offer my congradulations for such a victory. Masterfully played, aggressive, all the makings of a great general. However, I have also heard reports of many more great Carthaginian armies making their way straight to our two lonely legions in North Afrika. I offer my prayers for their safety and courage in destroying the Carthy scum.
I would also like to add my own report of my goings-ons of the past year or two. After my few battles and retaking Tylis, I was commissioned by the new Consul to go around the cities making speaches to quell the disorder, bring the newly conquered people Roman rule and generally improve the situations where necessary. Now, thankfully, that task is nearly completed and I will soon be back on the campaign trail, doing what I do best. I only await reinforcements to have a legion to lead! After all, this is no way for the leader of the storied Legio I to spend his days much longer. If only the previous Consul hadn't torn apart my legion to reinforce others'... *grumble grumble* Bah, in any case, Cornelius Saturninus is back and ready for action.
Avicenna
09-27-2006, 21:45
My congratulations to Senator Servius and his taking of Carthage. I hope that this will open the eyes of the Phoenicans, and make them listen to peace proposals more carefully than before. Perhaps now is the time to sue for peace... and making the Phoenicans our client kingdom?
(letter from Appius Barbatus, encamped in Samnium en route to Brindisium)
Word has reached me here through messengers from Tarentum of a great battle and victory for Rome in the Carthaginian lands. I wish to send my hearty congratulations to the First Consul, and hope for his continued success on this front. The enemies of Rome will tremble to hear the footsteps of our Legions approaching!
The consumate skill of the Consul never ceases to amaze me! It seems that no Carthenginian army can stand against him.
I am gladdened though that re-enforcements and support for him has arrived however, it seems they are also besieged now in the fort they constructed.
It looks worrying but I have faith that the Senators and the Consul can defeat the Carthage forces and we shall have our victory soon.
Members of the Senate,
I report that the city of Symrna is now in our hands, as is the mighty Temple of Artemis.
I have pledged that the riches contained within this temple be re-distributed throughout the Republic and allocated for building projects for our own Temples.
I have also posted a full report of the assault and taking of the city.
Manius
(OOC: This is a decent IC reason for the 30% reduction in build costs for temples we get for the capture of the wonder)
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
Again tidings of the blessings of the Gods reach me, this time from far-flung Smyrna. Thanks are in order to Senator Manius Coruncanius who has brought victory on such a scale without making widows of half of the Etruscan countryside. May Diana smile on his efforts now that he has justly captured the Greek temple.
I am receiving men continually at the camp near Tarentum. The men's spirits are high as we await setting forth to the East. However, their focus seems not to be where it should be. I must report that some of the troops look on me with disdain for my age and for the fact that I have brought my wife here to care for her in her illness. They would, it seems, rather have a commander who brings in whatever stray prostitutes wander near the camp!
My fellow senators, I ask for your help in my inexperience. How does one keep men's minds from wandering when encamped? It seems an insurmountable task at this time.
Vale.
Senator,
Keeping fighting men occupied and contented whilst they are not fighting or on campaign is an almost impossible task.
I, too, am young and am lucky to be in the field and have no concern for such things.
My main advice would be to keep them busy at all costs! Drilling, building projects...anything that keeps them from spending their money on the local women of ill repute.
....I am also proud to advise you and the Senate that the Consular army under my command has taken the town of Sardis in the name of the Republic!
A mere 25 Roman and Italian lives were lost in the operation as we took near 270 Ptolemy heads.
We get closer to a really defensible border between us and Seleucia.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/253-manius-sardis-1.zip
UPS - The last of your reinforcements will arrive and the legion will disembark for the east next season. At which time they will be spending much of their days getting used to sea-sickness, fishing, and learning the ways of the sea.
Until that time, I can offer you the following suggestions. If such men are concerned of your age, you can always make a direct reference to the consul himself that age means nothing in the ways of war. At only 22 years of age, Servius has served with his legion in Afrika for the entirety of his consulship, ruling the Republic from the battlefield, and serving, directly on the frontlines, amongst his men. At 22 years of age, he is responsible for outmaneouvering, outwitting, and tactically outclassing the Carthaginian armies from day one. Urge them to take notice that the true strength in Roman honor and dignity is found in family strength and loyalty, and that any man who brings a greek prostitute off the streets of Tarentum into his tent is no true roman man. Encourage games, both of the mind and the body, drill every day, battle will come to you all soon and you must be completely prepared, and finally...encourage loyalty through rewards.
I hope these suggestions help you stay the minds of your men. If they still insist on being rowdy, you can always threaten to transfer them to the deserts of Afrika with the consul, and scare them with stories of how the sands themselves attempt to devour men whole, and are made into storms so fierce they can eat the flesh from a man's bones. Either way, if your first engagement is a success, and we have every confidence that it will be, your men will respect you thereafter regardless of their current opinion. Men like to be led by great generals, they just don't realise that every great general started out much lesser known.
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
Again tidings of the blessings of the Gods reach me, this time from far-flung Smyrna. Thanks are in order to Senator Manius Coruncanius who has brought victory on such a scale without making widows of half of the Etruscan countryside. May Diana smile on his efforts now that he has justly captured the Greek temple.
I am receiving men continually at the camp near Tarentum. The men's spirits are high as we await setting forth to the East. However, their focus seems not to be where it should be. I must report that some of the troops look on me with disdain for my age and for the fact that I have brought my wife here to care for her in her illness. They would, it seems, rather have a commander who brings in whatever stray prostitutes wander near the camp!
My fellow senators, I ask for your help in my inexperience. How does one keep men's minds from wandering when encamped? It seems an insurmountable task at this time.
Vale.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My congratulations to the First Consul on his latest report. He has completely turned around the critical situation he inherited upon coming into office. The Seleucid invasion of Europe has been reversed - we are now invading Asia. Carthage has been dealt a succession of hammer blows and is surely doomed. Ptolemy has been stripped of some of its most wonderous and lucrative coastal provinces. Iberia has been deterred and Thrace can only lurk in the dark forests across the Danube.
Senators, I submit that our Republic has never been stronger. I salute the First Consul on his achievements and wish Marcellus Aemilius every success in his imminent battle against the Carthaginians, and the subsequent campaign of conquest.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I shall echo senator Aureolus' sentiments in congradulating Consul Aemilius with his apt handling of the dire situation he came into. The results speak for themselves, no doubt.
However, I am a bit worried about the last battle report we recieved from Marcellus. We lost too many men in my military opinion and I'm worried about further battles with the numerous Carthaginians on the horizon. It won't be easy, or cheap, reinforcing Afrika, and if we lose too many more men, our campaign there may end up all for nought. I fear the appointment of Marcellus Aemilius to such a crucial theatre in our military front may have been a mistake, whilst I was moving around giving speaches to a bunch of greeks and barbarians. Now, I don't want to excuse the Consul of any favor-giving, far from it, it just doesn't seem that Marcellus was the most qualified for the job. (OC: I say this in-character of course, referring to Marcellus' 1 star military stat. Has nothing to do with how the actual battle was carried out ~;) . Also of course has interesting in-character implications considering the 'family ties'.)
At any rate, these are only my concerns for the good of our Republic, I do not wish to insult anyone in particular. Only to see the success of our plans and have our nation prosper.
GeneralHankerchief
09-30-2006, 14:46
As you know Senator Saturnius, the Consul and I can hardly be considered family any more, so I doubt that this appointment was done due to family connections.
That said, the next battles should come easier. Mainly because the largest army in the theatre has just been taken out of action, and I now have experience fighting the Carthaginians.
I would next like to make a request to the Consul: If my purpose in Afrika is to destroy armies, then I would rather do it in the open field, perhaps on a bridge than sallying out of a fort.
(OOC: Marcellus did receive a trait increase after the battle and pretty soon he'll get Legate, so stars shouldn't be a problem).
UPS - You're complaining to the consul about having to sally forth from a fort to do battle? Carthage chose the venue of a siege. Or would you rather the consul had not allocated the funds necessary for a fort and given you the potential of being assaulted in the open by two Carthaginian armies rather than being besieged by one? An open field battle like that would have meant the total decimation of your legion. Not even you can contest such a thing Marcellus.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I seemed to have forgotten the troubles within the Aemilii family, my apologies. And perhaps I was being a bit too quick to judge, it was the first major battle against the Carthaginians, and a strong force at that outnumbering Marcellus. I'm sure the experience gained will come quickly and forcefully, and upcoming promotions will help with advisors and such rallying around the general. I just had a bout of doubt about our actions in Afrika, and seeing all those Carthaginians closing in. My best wishes to the two men leading our cause across the seas.
*edit*
I can hardly believe my ears! Word has reached me yet again about spectacular victories in Afrika under the leadership of our young Consul Marcellus. I believe we are bearing witness to a legend in the making, his battles within the last year already having gone down in the history books. My hearty congradulations and support for the wonderful work in Afrika, may the gods keep your strength up.
GeneralHankerchief
10-01-2006, 14:48
Another great Carthaginian city is in our possession. Hadrumentum is ours, and the price the Carthaginians paid probably finished them off. They have lost yet another army (I am told that the only significant force on the mainland now is the garrison of Hippo Reguis), as well as another general.
Well done. First Consul Servius, you amaze us all with your stunning victories on every front.
Members of the Senate,
I am happy to report an ERROR in my last report regarding the taking of Sardis.
I reported a loss of 25 Roman and Italians……this is WOEFULLY wrong.
My Roman and Italian losses against the 259 defenders was only….
……Thirteen (13), Roman and Italians!
My Adjutant had included the 12 Thracians in the original count despite my instructions to deliberately exclude them.
We now march to face the largest Seleucid threat available in the area and I hope to continue to yield high enemy deaths for such little Roman and Italian casualty figures.
Avicenna
10-02-2006, 19:02
Senator Libo, we must not forget the generals of the republic, without whom we could not be so successful.
Therefore, I offer my congratulations to all generals in the successful campaigns in Africa and against Selucia.
A very valid point. Well done all around, to generals who fight with the men, and also to thise who dictate the strategy.
UPS - Well then Senator Libo doubly praises both the men and the consul. As the consul has fought frontline with his legion in every engagement, and the Republic's generals, when the situation is not critical, are commonly confronted on their opinion of the proper strategy.
Such praise is surely much appreciated by all of our senators.
I have to advise the Senate that these Ptolemites and Seleucids appear to be unable to field a significant force here in Asia-Minor. Again, I have been tasked to putting down little more than an expedition force.
At this time and due to the actions of us in Asia-Minor it seems that we can take whatever territory we wish and make whatever border we want. I know the Consul will stick with the plan he has for this though and take no more than is required to construct a solid, defensible border.
I just want the Senate to know that all previous “fears” can be quelled and perhaps we can start enjoying the fruits of what our armies have achieved here in Asia-Minor and in Afrika during the next Consulship.
Avicenna
10-03-2006, 18:08
Senators, what is the point of staying put when the Greeks are unfit to defend? We should seize this oppurtunity to inflict a lightning campaign with one of our armies, which is to be given free reign in the region, and the commander tasked only with:
- keeping the army intact
- capturing enemy towns and razing their training facilities
- destroying any enemies in his wake
We might never get such an oppurtunity again, and I urge the senate to give the consul in Anatolia the permission to deal this crippling blow to the Greeks!
This shall, as I have stated earlier, cripple the remaining Greek factions. It will allow us to sue for a favourable peace. If the Greeks should have the gall to reject a simple ceasefire and subjection to Rome as a client state, they shall be in no position to defend themselves from the wrath of Rome's legions, or to launch a significant attack on our borders, as they will be unable to recruit troops from neighbouring regions.
Of course, such a campaign would be costly and risky. But judging by the coffers on this day and the amazing victories consistently achieved by our generals, I do not think this feat would be impossible to pull off. Should we win the gamble, we will be the unchallenged hegemon on the Eastern frontier of the empire, which will undoubtedly be secure for days to come.
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
I have heard through messengers that the debate over the Consul's policies in the east and in Carthage have died down, but a new debate springs up regarding whether to push forward in Anatolia. This is a matter perhaps for our midterm deliberations.
To me, it seems obvious that the Seleucids are reeling from the disasters that are constantly befalling them at the hands of our able Generals, Marcellus Aemilius and Numerius Aureolus. I and my men are also bound there, to bring strength to Numerius and much-needed supplies to them both.
With two full legions in the area, it should be not only simple but relatively safe to attack and destroy Seleucid cities whilst the opportunity presents itself. Destroying buildings, especially training facilities, will set the Seleucids back years, and if we raid enough cities they may not have time to recover by the time we can muster a full invasion army.
However, I must urge the Senate and Consul Aemilius to retain the plan that the Consul laid out only a few weeks ago, to fortify a line along the Plateau and then stray beyond it only to raid and destroy Seleucid strongholds. To occupy cities beyond this border would without a doubt be bringing the war too far from Rome and too far from reinforcement.
Besides, the corrupting influence of the East may wear on our Generals and soldiers without Roman buildings and Roman laws being firmly established in their midst. Let us not stray too far lest we lose the numina that guide us.
GeneralHankerchief
10-03-2006, 20:33
I appreciate Senator Barbatus' commending my generalship, but I fears he has me mixed up with Manius Coruncanius, as I am in Afrika presently.
That said, you all know my position on the East. I was against venturing into Asia Minor in the first place, although I reluctantly submit that it was a good idea.
I see no further benefit in expanding even farther east. There is no sea that we can control and hence increase trade benefits, and it would stretch us even further. There will be a defensible (albeit less defensible than the original border) border, and if our forces can defeat army after army of these people then surely they can hold a measly bridge.
Senator Barbatus,
Whilst I am young and full of pride I will certainly abide by the instructions of the Senate and the Consul. Whilst my army appears to be able to raid at will in Asia-Minor against both the Seleucids and Ptolemites, I will sprinkle my actions with temerance and only strike where and when it is deemed best by the Consul and Senate.
Senator Tiberius,
Greeks?? What Greeks do you speek of, I was under the impression that the Greeks were dealt with a good few years back, we should consult the Library on this though as I was but a student in my formative years at the time.
I am certain though that no Greek "threat" exists. Do you mean perhaps Carthage or Seleucia/Ptolemy?
Senator Aemilius,
I have to agree. We will expand just as far as to establish a defensible border. A by product of this is the coastal regions of the Black Sea and around Rhodes, which will be profitable for the Republic in the future.
My humblest apologies to both Senators Marcellus Aemilius and Manius Coruncanius! This will teach me to write without consulting the Senatorial rolls.
Senator Tiberius,
Greeks?? What Greeks do you speek of, I was under the impression that the Greeks were dealt with a good few years back, we should consult the Library on this though as I was but a student in my formative years at the time.
I am certain though that no Greek "threat" exists. Do you mean perhaps Carthage or Seleucia/Ptolemy?
Are the Seleucuids not the descendands of Alexander... a 'Greek'. Do they not fight in the phalanx? They are greek, no matter how far away they are from greece.
I agree with previous comments regarding a raid into the Seleucid heartlands.
Avicenna
10-03-2006, 21:54
Senator Coruncanius: the Eastern Greeks, the Ptolemaics and the Selucids of the Alexandrian Empire. They are a corrupt, decadent version of the Greeks swimming in riches in the Eastern part of the world. As such, they deserve no power, and any attack on them is fully supported by me. The Greeks should never be allowed to threaten our republic again.
Senator Marcellus: I am not proposing an expansion into the East, merely a crippling of the Selucid Empire. The destruction of some of their core provinces will surely weaken them for a long time, maybe even permanently. Surely you see that it would be folly to merely consolidate? With no major forces in the area, the Selucids are defenceless against our Legions. However, if we stay put, they will be easily able to muster up yet another army to slay more sons of Rome, while the senate debates are droning on. The power of the Greeks must be destroyed!
Senator Libo,
I don't wish to engage in symantics but Alexander was Macedonian, perhaps the B'stard children of Greek, Dacian and Thracian intermarriages?
As to who invented the Phalanx....I'm certain that Greeks thinkers could discuss such a thing right up until the time when good Roman steel cuts their throats! hahahahhahahaha
Ahh...understood Senator Tiberius, I suspect that I have been Tutor'd too long in Roma by "pure" Greeks and thus make a clear distinction where none is required or perhaps even "Roman"?
Avicenna
10-03-2006, 22:30
Senator Coruncanius, a Greek is a Greek, no matter where he chooses to live. It all boils down to their blood, and all Greeks think similarly to me. and thus, they are all a threat. Look at this worrying trend: ALL the Greek factions have attacked our Republic, even without a legitimate motive. and, therefore, all must submit to us or be crushed. Even the barbarians to the North know their place and are not as reckless as the foolish Greeks, who apparently cannot learn a lesson from the utter destruction of Macedon.
Senator Decius Laevinius
UPS - A situation has risen in the north that should be brought to the attention of the senate.
Consul Servius, upon further inspection of the situation surrounding the Iberian warband that refused to move from the ford, discovered the following information on the logistics for the main Iberian force.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/uhoh-1.jpg
Their goal was clearly to block us from constructing the fort directly on the ford so that their main army can lead them through the forest south of Viberi with an experienced commander, possibly heading through Luvavum to Cisalpine Gaul, where he could ransack northern Italy for several seasons before aid could arrive. In immediate response to this, Quintus Livo and his adopted son Nero Naso have been ordered to immediately abandon Viberi, dismantle the Roman constructs, and head south. A permament border fort will be located on the ford north of Luvavum, where it is more viable to defend against an attack from the Iberians or Thrace. Viberi provided an adequate amount of income and aid to Rome while it lasted, but it just isn't worth the continued risk.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
What? What's this? Abandoned a city for no reason? I must say, I'm displeased with this decision, leaving a Roman town undefended like that. What reason do the Iberians have not to attack it now? We cannot afford a war with them, this has been made clear. I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me. At least give the town away to someone so as not to provoke an attack.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I confess I also do not understand the plan regarding Viberi. It appears from the map provided that we are abandoning the fort blocking the Iberians from reaching Viberia and also abandoning Viberi itself. If that is what we are doing, it appears tantamount to an invitation to Iberia to declare war.
I apologise if I have misunderstood, but if Cornelius and I are interpreting the Consul's plans correctly, they are reckless in the extreme. Iberia has proved herself no threat if contained. She is like a cowardly wolf, easily cowed by our strength and anyway preoccupied with devouring Germania. But to leave the door open and a helpless babe on the table is surely too much temptation!
If the Consul wishes to vacate Viberi, which I believe is unnecessary, then he should at least seal it off from the Iberians with forts and armies until such a time as it rebels and can no longer provide a casus belli.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I fear that even if we let it rebel, the people may rebel to either the Germans or Iberians themselves, either way causing immediate war. Why not keep the town?
Avicenna
10-04-2006, 07:58
I regret to have to be so lenient on the Iberians that I was so keen to attack years ago, but I must concur with the last points made. Our forces are already stretched too thinly, and a war with Iberia is the last thing we need. In order to deter them from war, we simply must keep a border garrison in Viberi, to dissuade the Iberians from sending out this foolish expedition and end up with us having more wars than we can deal with at once.
If the consul is going to be stubborn, however, the best path will be to guard the forts with our legions to prevent an Iberian attack while it is being dismantled, and Viberi to a faction, preferably one that is friendly to Rome.
{Manius Coruncanius}
As many of you in the Senate are aware, I am a staunch supporter of our current Consul, perhaps one of his most loyal, and have had little to query with regards his tactical knowledge in the past.
I can see what the Consul is aware of but the information given by his messenger has not provided the Senate with sufficient knowledge to make a considered opinion on the matter.
The Consul fears that not allowing the Iberians a “vent” into Germainia to the North via Viberi then they will turn South following the forests, across the ford and onto a more dangerous position. Please remember how close Luvavum is to some of our most developed and oldest settlements.
I am sure it will take at least two seasons march for the main Iberian force to reach Luvavum anyway, have we nothing that could block the ford there in this time frame?
He also neglects to advise us of what forces we have South of this area? Do we not have any forces or commanders North of either Mediolanium or Patavium that could march further North to further shepherd the Iberians away?
I find myself questioning why we are abandoning the fort South West of Viberi. I support the idea that there is no way that we could defend Viberi herself, she has no defensive emplacement and cannot have them, but wasn’t the fort placed there for just this reason? Yet, at the first sign of what we’d planned for occurring, we abandon it and the town its defending??
Also, to the Senators I say, whilst a war with Iberia will be a problem it is not a situation that could be termed as “cannot be afforded”. I cannot comment on what forces we have in the area so perhaps we could not stand against the Iberians if they chose to attack, but, our economy has recovered from our Seleucid/Ptolemite war…….just….and I say!!!
IF the Iberians WANT war then by Hades teeth! We’ll give them a war and dance on the ashes of their funeral pyres!
Carthage is all but crushed, the East is secure and well defended. Perhaps now the world is about to throw us our next challenge? We do not seek war but nor will we hide from it!
Maybe now is the time to make war upon them. Strike from the Fort, strike at the small Iberian force and push them back across the border! Make the Iberians know now that we will not tolerate their continued un-invited incursions into our lands and that they have led us into a position where our only option now is to fight them. Have we not given this small force sufficient warning to leave? Perhaps they need a “nudge” out the door now?
If we have to declare war to just expell what amounts to a small "brigand" force, in our own lands, then WAR it shall be! I do not condone invasion of Iberian lands at this time but just the encouragement to the Consul that he can expell these invaders from our lands and stamp our Republican authority on our actions.
___________________________________________________________________________
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I have heard from the First Consul and it seems my worst fears have been realised - the Consul intends that we abandon Viberi and the fort to the west blocking the Iberians from it.
I would like to ask of the First Consul:
(a) what he believes would have happened if he did not make this move (abandoning Viberi and the fort)?
and
(b) what he believes will happen now he has made this move?
I ask these questions because I simply do not understand his reasoning. It seems to me that under (a) he anticipates war - perhaps that Ambon's army would enter our lands. I have no idea what he anticipates under (b).
For what it is worth, under (a), I believe we could have maintained peace with Iberia and held Viberi perhaps indefinitely. I am not convinced Ambon intended to do anything other than march north to join the war against Germania.
However, given the First Consul's plan, under (b), I fear the Iberians will shortly attack us.
I hope I am wrong, but this seems a most reckless move with no discernible benefit.
UPS - The senate has often been unable to discern the consul's plans..why should this recent dessention be any kind of surprise?
Firstly, if Viberi was not abandoned, Iberia, if its intentions were Germania, would have found the route to Germania blocked by our forts. Its options then, because it could not afford to waste the time marching all the way back through and around our territory, would be either 1 - take the fort, engaging in acts of war with us, or 2 - see more profitable land to the south and launch an assault of our very profitable provinces of Aquileia, Patavium, Bononia, etc.
It should be noted that Quintus Libo's legion is only of praetorian status, and is not suited to engage barbarian soldiers in a consular sized formation with a strong general and another two praetorian sized armies following in its path only a season away.
The closest reinforcing legions to Quintus Libo are Quintus Naevius who cannot be removed from Comata, and Servius Nero, serving on the Danube, where it would also be of poor judgement to withdraw his services. Both will take up to six seasons or longer to arrive near Viberi.
The consul feels quite strongly that Iberia will see Rome's intent as this withdrawel being an act of goodwill. We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them. Viberi will be allowed to rebel. We feel strongly that Iberia will not make any attempts on the town until after it has revolted against Roman rule, it is our contention that they don't want war with us, but that Viberi is most certainly in the way of Iberian plans, and too far from the heartland of Roman rule to properly defend now that Iberia has denied us the position we had originally desired. If it truly does desire the town at all, they won't go to war with us when they can simply wait and take it when it lies defenceless and is no longer a part of Roman obligation. Either way, the withdrawel to a more easily defendable position will be beneficial.
In regards to concerns a) If Iberia had moved its forces and permitted us to obtain the border we had desired, then yes, but for a year they made this impossible. We believe Ambon will march through Noricum Superior to reach Germania.
b) Iberia, if it accepts our good will, will do nothing to initiate hostile action. If it does not accept it...then it would have done so anyway, and we have done nothing but move Quintus Libo and his legion to a more defensible, more secure place to defend himself.
We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?
(ooc - double post, sorry)
Senators and UPS Maximus,
These are the conclusions that I thought the Consul had come up with. Like myself I am inclined to believe that the Iberians are just stupid and expect us to allow them unchallenged passage to Germainian lands.
With the fort in place they cannot physically pass. They “could” then march past Viberi but the Consul is assuming that there is the minor possibility of them attacking the settlement – our forces cannot stand there, that is raw truth!
It leaves a vile taste in my mouth to leave the town to this possible fate and I would be inclined to station some Republican forces in the town so that it will not rebel against us. If the Iberians attack then the town is lost but I would, personally, prefer we looked more optimistically at the situation and not destroy our buildings there and retain a garrison.
If we loose the town, we will loose those within it I know, and perhaps volunteers should be sought form the Legion for this most dangerous task. I propose no Legate be present and the town be put over to the control of a Centurion only.
IF, my and the Consuls assumptions are correct we can re-occupy the town fully after the Iberians have passed.
IF we are NOT correct then a war will exist between us and Iberia finally and we will have to deal with that. I do not doubt a recapture of Viberi at some point though.
The other thing to consider is our Allies. Am I correct in saying that Germainia is, and has been for a number of years our pledged Ally? Do we just allow the Iberians free access to wage war upon our ALLIES?!?
What people are we if this is so?
UPS has advised the Senate that there are NO forces available that could stanch the flow of the Iberians across the border in time, but he is also correct in asking for the thoughts of the Tribune who is there now – Quintus Libo. IF he feels he can hold, in the name of the Republic, then I say we allow him the honour to do so.
There are two choices.
We withdraw, ready Legions and secure our heartlands with a view of perhaps striking at Iberia – depending on what occurs at Viberi. A prudent course of action.
Or
We again face off directly and in the field against the smaller Iberian force. Force them back across the border and force the main Iberian armies to think twice in that region. A bluff perhaps, a show of force that we do not have perhaps…….I say this choice lays with Quintus Libo, a capable commander in truth. If he is prepared to lay his life upon the line and force the Iberians to back away again (and take route through their own lands towards Germainia) then I will support him in that choice.
This is perhaps the most honourable course of action. The question is, does the Republic now act with measured Prudence or in the Honour of its people and history?
Senators and Consul (via UPS) – thus far the Iberians have only respected a show of strength from us. I am inclined to say that due to their barbarian nature they will not accept our withdrawal as “good will” but rather as weakness.
YES, we are weak in that region but……I feel that if we show we are still willing to fight if pushed, then the Iberians will back down again. We do not need to show the Iberians we are weak, let them see we are strong and determined.
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
I agree with Senator Manius Coruncanius, that the Iberians are nothing but rabble, and smelly rabble at that. They do not have the wits to see this move as a peaceable one. It is in their blood to view military actions as either weak or strong; there is no other way for them.
However, what choice have we than to abandon Viberi? I believe the Senator Quintus Libo could soundly defeat the Iberians by holding the ford near Viberi, but this is one location along a vast and for the most part undermanned border!
To the west we have troops moving up from Iberia itself toward Gergovia and Augustus' fort. Quintus Naevius holds a strong position at the fort north of Comata, but the Iberian Vercingetorix could be at his doorstep with a legion-sized army at his back in two seasons! To the north, Iberian forces moving to attack the Germans could easily be diverted against us. The well-traveled veteran of many wars, Mikolaus, gathers strength on the shores of the Baltic and could destroy the Thracians in one swift blow, leaving our northern border open to attack.
It is a grave and mistaken idea to think that attacking the Iberians would be wise. I think we must back away from Viberi at this time.
Mount Suribachi
10-04-2006, 16:48
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me.
Why? This is pretty much par for the course these days.
We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them
Let me repeat that.
We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally
Conscript Fathers, I should be angry, nay furious at this betrayal of our only ally, yet I am so far past angry. Instead, I am overcome by a deep, morose-laden sadness. I cannot even rouse myself to fight against this betrayal of Roman values. If anything, we should be attacking Iberia to aid our German allies - if we are as strong as our Consul & his supporters in this house claim.
But they would rather gorge themselves on the riches of the East and agitate for endless conquests to further their own glory.
I leave you again Senators, I'm sure you are too busy expanding to yet another "defensible border" and its associated "raiding" leading to expaning to yet another "defensible border"...
You may indulge in your relentless empire building without interference from me.
{Manius Coruncanius]
I was going to suggest something in light of what has been said but it stuck in my throat and would NOT come out……it was a cowardly suggestion, it shall not pass my lips.
Now, if Appius’s assessment is correct, isn’t backing down in the North just a further invite for the Iberians to assail us from all those points that Appius suggests?
As there are so many Iberian forces about, would it not lend even more weight to a show of bravado from us, a show of strength and further resolve to not tolerate incursions from the Barbarians?
What is clear now though, is that we have all delayed this for as long as possible. Now we have reached a point where we either loose a settlement or the, long expected, conflict will start….even then, I doubt that the conflict will be avoided but perhaps delayed by a season or at most two.
This is still too short a time for us to fully re-enforce the border and prepare for this war. However, I trust in Roman training and in good Roman steel. I say that we can still defend our borders with what little we have against these……these….….foul and posturing barbarians.
Heads will be cleaved and spears will be splintered but those commanders on the border will, once again, face seemingly insurmountable odds and exceed all our hopes and dreams. They will grant the Republic the time she needs to assemble the Legions required for her ultimate defence, in blood it will be paid but in BLOOD times 1,000! ........Will it be re-paid.
We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally
We have an ally?
I find it a bit strange that, from the time the Coruncanii sponsored me and brought me into this august house until now, that this mysterious ally has been mentioned once, in passing. I took the liberty of looking through the Senate rolls and found that Germania has been discussed when they came into discussions over Senate motions, but their plight has been ignored or even applauded by some here.
Apparently it is an alliance of convenience rather than of action.
Senator Valerius Paullus, I appreciate your concern at this time, and indeed concur that if we are truly allied then we must, in Roman honour, bleed to the last drop for our true ally. However, the fact that not even you, Senator Paullus, have fought for strengthening Germania from the time they signed the alliance documents until now speaks volumes.
What sort of Roman virtue is there to defend if we have been happily standing by in our strongholds when our ally is under attack?
{Cornelius Saturninus}
It appears the Consul will not be swayed on this matter... woe is the day the senate's worries go unheaded by the elected leader. It appears we shall be thrust into this war with Iberia nomatter how unpopular it is. If at least we had the proper resources to conduct such a war, perhaps it would not be so much of an atrocity. We could have done what needed to be done, take their lands, push them back into the peninsula and seal off the border... ah, could have, would have, should have, dust in the Roman wind now...
UPS - What is being done, is being done, to avoid war with Iberia at all costs. The senate has habitually misunderstood the purpose, validity, and value behind the consul's strategies, so why should this be any different?
We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?
I am outnumbered 4 - 1. Ideally, we would not fight Iberia at all, but it seems as though we have no choice today. They are on our doorstep, and appear to have no thoughts on their mind but war. To fight, that is not our choice, where to fight is. I would rather fight at the ford above Luvavum then in a fort or city. The consul's actions have made me sick at some times, but make no mistake in thinking this looming war is his fault. It is the will of the Gods, and we have no choice but to obey their commands. Iberia is knocking on our door, we must fight. And I would much rather fight on that on the river near Luvavum then above it in unscouted wilderness. So I ask the Consul, please allow me and my new son to hold the ford and let us fight any Iberian army that attacks us. If Viberi rebels before Iberia can attack, fine by me.
Senators, it seems that in my absense, much has occurred that I did not anticipate. Our attack on Carthage has produced military success, but we have abandoned our gains contrary to the wishes of the Senate and the passed legislation. We have begun expansion once again in the East, even though the Consul campaigned on the platform of holding the border there until those provinces were properly militarized. Now we are yielding the frontier so that the Iberians may gain better routes through which to attack our only ally in the entire known world!
I have seen much of Transalpine Gaul in recent days and in particular the great works our people have erected there have made me think hard about what we are doing. The Republic exists first and foremost to better the lives of Roman citizens. Yet I see the taxes being diverted to developing foreign lands and the sons of noble Romans shedding blood in far away places with no benefit being returned to their families.
The word "Empire" has increasingly crept into the language of the Senate debates. This is not the Rome I knew as a child. This is not the Republic that I have spent my life fighting for. I may be old, but I am not dead yet. I will fight those who seek to injure Rome and her people to my last breath, whether they wear pants or togas.
UPS - The intention was to send you and your new son both to the ford north of Luvavum, so you concur with the consul's strategy then.
Actually..there is an update.
https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/acceptance.jpg
Iberia has accepted our notion of goodwill. In abandoning our forts and Viberi, the way is clear for Iberia to move unapposed through Noricum Superior. This is no significant loss, and the new border will be much more easy to maintain and defend. Quintus Libo will be taking up defense of the ford with a nearly consular sized force, assisted by his new son Nero Naso.
EDIT - Then by all means senator Verginius, fight those who would injure Rome, and chastise those who dare use the term 'empire'. This consul has clearly and solely made use of the term 'Republic', because that is what Rome is. If it weren't, you wouldn't be making such remarks here senator, in fact, you wouldn't be here at all.
Let us stop this foolish bantering about Germania, they were in the past, are now, and will always be an alliance of convenience, their existance continues solely to maintain that Iberia and Rome remain at peace, and if necessary, Rome will provide the monetary funding to help them in this cause, but to suddenly pretend that we have been the staunch, unrelenting allies in all ways to these people, people, mind you, who we have never actually met with face to face save through their participation as paid soldiers in Thracian armies, hardly an act considered tolerable of an 'ally', and through the eyes of a singular diplomat.
Furthermore, what can a sixty some year old man who hasn't traveled within a few miles of Gergovia for the last two and a half years possibly know of how well or ill our situation is in east. If the consul did not deem is feasible, correct, and easy to defend the lands we have taken from the foul Seleucids in the east, we would not have taken these lands.
I would dare any man who initially opposed the eastern expansion to deny that these lands have gained the Republic much profit, and will continue to grow and see prosperity in the future. Any such a man could be shut up in a moment by pointing straight to our coffers. Thirty thousand denarii a season senators! The consul made the modest promise of forty thousand by the end of his consulship, but with the continued conquest in Afrika and his extensive monetary building projects underway, including safe harbors, auxilia buildings for farm tax collection, and advanced governmental structures for our larger cities, we will most certainly surpass that amount by the end of his rule.
GeneralHankerchief
10-04-2006, 23:09
Look, you stupid clerk. Senator Verginius has served Rome better than you could in a thousand lifetimes. You are the only person who believes that the Consul is a demigod here, as much as you try to convince the rest of us. I have spoken with your master, and even he is hollowed out from his brief session as Consul. But still you act as if everything's just peachy.
Now then, I shall defend the Consul, but in a less glamorous way than you have done, Mister UPS. What was done was done, and I now admit that the money received from controlling the Aegean was a necessary evil. While Roman blood may be shed for bad causes, far more bay have been shed if nothing was done. We would have collapsed financially.
As for the Iberian situation, I believe that we must impose a check on their growing power. For two long they have threatened Rome, and openly challenged us, but we did not take the bait. I think that we must send them a message in return. Perhaps our newly-returned Senator Verginius (welcome back, by the way) could take a little stroll through Iberian territory (not actually conquering anything)? If those fools know anything about us then they will know that this particular Senator is not to be trifled with.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Marcellus! You must not abuse the staff! UPS may just be a lowly clerk, but I can assure you we do not hire fools. Furthermore, he is the spokesman for the First Consul and when he speaks in this capacity, he should be afforded the respect of that high office.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-04-2006, 23:52
An ally, we have an ally ?
I hear these words on the senate floor and they are justified ! Our only ally, who with great difficulty I managed to convince to help us is being abandoned by us !
By all means, let us open the way for the Iberian invaders. Even now the German king sits in his long hall cursing Roman honour. This course of action is a disgrace for Rome. The mightiest nation in the world, cunningly betraying their only ally. With friends like us, who needs enemies ?
Fortunately, there are still Romans amongs us like Quintus Libo, who bravely volunteers to block the Iberian invasion route. I hope the first consul will reconsider his offer and let him face up to the Iberians.
In the next session, I will once again propose this motion
We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by
Iberia).
and I hope the shame this action brings on us will force you to vote in favour for it then.
Let me make it clear that I do not demand a declaration of war on Iberia. Now all our forces are marching toward India (*glares*) it would not be wise, but we should never let fear guide our motives toward our allies. It's disgraceful !
Once the Iberians see one of the famed Roman legions blocking their way they will surely back down.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: You have to laugh, really. Here we sit - some of us old fools, others - like myself - young fools. And there goes the youthful First Consul running rings around us all.
Gentlemen, he has outsmarted us all again. I have told you before - although some of you professed not to believe me - that I have by no means directed or corrupted our young First Consul. Almost every move I have suggested, he has rejected. Almost every move he has made, I have not anticipated.
Well, now you have a public demonstration. I predicted doom and war with Iberia if we abandoned Viberi. I was even about to make a speech on the point when UPS presented his latest report. Thankfully, I was able to tear it up before it reached your ears. The First Consul has taken a bold step and what is the result? We remain at peace, but with a more defensible frontier. I apologise for my lack of faith in his judgement and congratulate him on his acuity and nerve.
Taking Viberi was always a rather pointless expedition. I am sad to hear Lucius Aemilius proposing two more of the same. Hopefully the Senate will have the sense not to vote for Roman blood to be spilt on conquests for Germania.
I'm afraid I must join the outcry against this action. Viberi must be reoccupied, and the flow of Iberian reinforcements and supplies must be stopped. Perhaps some honor can yet be salvaged from this. The Germans have never been close allies, but no nation may use Roman lands as a highway without permission!
Concessions may not be made to Iberia, which only serve to embolden them. Just what do you suppose they'll think they can get away with next? They have been testing us ever since we made final war upon the Gauls. They started by blocking fords which we intended to traverse. Then they deicded to see if we would let them march through our territory. And now they wish to see if they could intimidate us into withdrawing, and if we would abandon our supposed allies. In each case they were able to accomplish that which they set out to accomplish. We did not dislodge them from that ford. We let them roam through our lands, letting them withdraw at their own leisure. And now this. The next time they try something like this, they must receive a negative response.
More on the Germans. We don't consider them an important ally, but if we are to keep our western frontier peaceful, we need them. For many years now, Iberia has campaigned in Germany, but has failed to accomplish much. As long as this stalemate continues, it is highly unlikely that they will attack us. With their army comitted in Germany, they would be ill-prepared to defend their homelands against us. Of course, that's assuming that they don't think that we would let them attack us without response, and given the way we've been dealing with them so far, I'm not so sure. We should try to establish closer relations with the Germans. First of all, we must stop aiding the Iberians in their war by allowing them to use our lands. A suitable gift should be offered to the Germans to make up for the damage caused so far. A spy should be dispatched to the north to keep an eye on the war. If or when the Germans seem in danger of collapsing, we must intervene.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-05-2006, 00:48
I offer my wholehearted support to the words of Tiberius Coruncanius !
Senators,
The general on in the area, Quintus Libo, requested that he be allowed to withdraw to his current position and we must respect that.
Thus we have abandoned our settlement. If both the Consul and the general who was ACTUALLY THERE thought this the best move then can any of us say otherwise?
What will happen now is that Iberia will know we have no intent on stopping their campaign against Germainia, they now know we are unwilling to challenge them further and they will pour all available warriors against our allies.
Germainia will be finished in a few years but they will buy us the time to assemble some Legions so that we can face Iberia.
I say that we concentrate our minds upon that question. I would like us to strike the first blow and I support the allocation of Senator Verginius with a force to march into Iberian held lands, let them be at the receiving end of an army on their doorstep.
After what Quintus Libo said, I can do nothing other than support the Consuls actions here.
Let us cast our thoughts forward now and perpare for the unavoidable war to come.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius my understanding of the Consul's withdrawal from Viberi is that it was designed to maintain peace with Iberia, not prepare for war. War with them is by no means inevitable.
I see though that it is. Now that we have shown that we’ll back down, in their minds, we are now weak. They will attack us once Germainia is dealt with.
This is my opinon though and it would be wonderful if I am proved wrong.
However, whilst I believe this and support a march into their lands – fare is fare they’ve done it to us many times – I will back down from openly attacking the Iberians in their lands.
What I want is for us to prepare for war, be ready for it….it is sure to come sooner or later and I do NOT want us to be in the situation we are today. Backing down from a Barbarian culture is NOT the Republican way!
We need to prepare and be in the situation where we can face them off again should they enter our lands AND not only that, but also be ready and able to fight them if the worse comes to worse.
It will not be long before I am finished here in Asia-Minor; I will relish the opportunity to face one of these Barbarians, stare in his eyes and for him to know I will not move, that my line is drawn in the dirt and he shall not pass.
UPS - It is incredibly amusing, this entire argument. Why? Let me make a few facts quite clear, so as to point out the blatant failure in the arguements of those opposing this course.
Issue #1 -
Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first season, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Cornelius Saturnius, Augustus Sempronius, Valerius Paullus
Now, given these facts, I now see Senators Verginius, Saturninus, and Paullus, all argueing against giving away Viberi. A course they voted to mandate to begin with.
Issue #2 - On a previous date of deliberation, I was asked the following question by senator Numerious Aureolus.
1) Our occupation of Viberi appears to be permanent - what are the Consul's intentions regarding the remaining Thracian settlements?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1245909&postcount=257
The responce was, as follows. I have highlighted some blatantly visible points that were directly portrayed to the senate, and the senate very well understood.
Firstly, we never intended to permanently occupy Viberi. Before anybody else brings it up, the consul did not vote in favor of the motion to give it away to anybody who would take it, because this would involve giving it back to thrace, or potentially to Iberia, which would completely defeat the purpose of taking it from Thrace to begin with. In that respect, the only neighbor we could find who was actually willing to take it was Iberia. The consul, finding it better not to completely abandon our German allies to becoming an island amongst the Iberian sea, felt compelled to garrison the settlement instead. This act may be temporary, it may be permanent. With this issue, it is still too early to tell. For now, however, it has provided Senator Quintus Libo with a place to fall back on should Thrace counter his incursion with unexpected force. A judgement shall be passed on the remaining Thracian settlements when the consul feels the bulk of the Thracian military might has been lain to waste through our cross border incursions.
Issue #3 -
Further on in that very same speech. This remark was made.
This senate has a horrible tendency of setting specific, unflexible goals without taking into consideration the fact that all situations change. The consul realises that nothing stays the same season by season, and everything must be taken in stride. There are some generalised goals everywhere. Stabilise the east, conquer Carthage, fend of Thrace, maintain peace with Iberia. How, exactly, these things are to be done when the time comes can only be determined by the circumstances of the moment.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1245985&postcount=259
So, quite clearly, there are some questions that arise.
1 - Why do senators who initially voted to give the settlement away, even to an enemy, now vocally and angrily oppose our withdrawel from it?
2 - Does the senate wish to deny the general most active and knowledgeable of the situation, senator Quintus Libo, the ability to move his men to a position he deems more beneficial to the survival of his men and the good of Rome?
3 - Does the senate understand that if Viberi were to be garrisoned, our forts maintained, and Iberia provoked by these actions, that a loss of Quintus Libo and our legion by overwhelming Iberian force would cost us more in soldier's lives than the entire population of Viberi to begin with? What is more valuable to this senate? Roman soldiers or a backwater, worthless, undeveloped settlement barely the size of one of your own singular villas?
4 - Is the senate unable to understand the point made in this argument that all things must be dealt with according to the circumstances of the moment? This senator has pledged to maintain peace with Iberia. If doing so means abandoning a settlement that the senators now voicing their opinion against this act initially voted to give away because the circumstances deem it the most logical way to avoid war, then that is what will be done.
Several of you voted to give away, nay, pay to have this settlement taken off of our hands, yet now you cry out because we are doing exactly that in the name of continued peace with Iberia and the better interests of Rome?
I have one more question...are the senators now in question finished wasting my time?
GeneralHankerchief
10-05-2006, 17:49
Things change, clerk. Situations evolve. If the Speaker demands that I hold you in respect of the high office, the least that you could do would be to respect us in return.
UPS - I have merely pointed out the painfully obvious.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-05-2006, 22:00
UPS, I am offended by your tone of voice and will ask Servius to punish you for this disgraceful behaviour. Adressing your betters like you were first consul yourself ? You are lucky you are under the first consul's protection or I would have you dragged off the floor and beaten to the bone by my lictors !
Now as to your arguments presented.
You speak of logic when what should matter most to the senate is Roman honour and dignity !
A Roman legion is powerful enough to defeat several consular-sized armies, as has been shown repeatedly. All that is required is courage to stand up for our only allies, the Germans.
If Quintus Libo does not believe himself up to the task, I am quite willing to relieve him from his post. I'm not afraid of some barbarians, even with the battered forces I am commanding at present. On the contrary, I consider my army too powerful to confront the Iberians ! I recommend the consul reduce my force to legion strength before letting me take up position guarding Viberi. All I ask is that he places my army at the river crossing between our and Iberian territory at the first oppertunity. That will stop the Iberians from wandering around our territory and make it a lot harder for them to attack the Germans.
I have always opposed giving away captured territory to our enemies. Are the Iberians not powerful enough already ? Must we help them even further ? This course is madness. We should do all we can to empower our allies, the Germans, instead. If Germany is defeated, Iberia will be sure to attack us.
If Quintus Libo does not believe himself up to the task, I am quite willing to relieve him from his post.
You misunderstand my words, Senator. I believe that the First Consul is in charge of our grand strategy at this time. Which he is. If he orders me to withdraw, withdraw I will. He says we must withdraw from Viberi, and since he says this, I respectfully request to move my Legion to the ford at Luvavum. I am afraid he may have misunderstood me also, I do not wish a fort for my troops, just the bridge itself. I feel that I could kill far more Iberians with less Roman life lost if I was there not in a fort.
If you, ex-Consul Lucius would like to journey north and aid me and my army, then I will certainly appreciate your help (though un-needed) and direct you to where you can do the most help... most likely in the rear, where you can guard the women and children. Such is appropriate no?
And besides, we are not even at war with Iberia as of now. Why are so many senators shouting with plans for combat? If all things go well, we will not need to fight at all.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-06-2006, 09:44
Senator Quintus Libo,
I am pleased my initial praise for you in my speech before last as an example of a brave Roman was appropriate. I interpreted the Consul's previous statement as you requesting to withdraw to Luvavum on your own initiative. Now it is clear you have just been following orders as a good soldier and show a good grasp of tactics. My apologies for this confusion. I am sure the defense of our border is in good hands.
GeneralHankerchief
10-09-2006, 23:33
Gentlemen, Thapsus is back in Roman possession. Hopefully this time it will stay there.
(OOC: Lucjan, can you confirm that Oppius just jumped up in age from 16 to 20? Because I could have sworn that he was 16 at the time of the fort battle. :dizzy2:)
(ooc - He was 16, and I can confirm that he has mysteriously jumped 4 years in age. I see no problem with anybody else doing the same though. Perhaps we can attribute it to our little rp? The situation made him mature a bit? lol)
Mount Suribachi
10-10-2006, 17:30
ooc - my Oppius Aemilius? He's been around a while. I wanted him initially when I first chose Valerius Paullus.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senators, I have just received a message from the First Consul to Manius Coruncanius that I thought I should share with the House. Manius's troops had requested to know where they would march after the midterm motions. Servius replied and his response was read by Manius in Pessinus's town square, a copy of it finding its way back to Rome. The message went:
"Tell your men that I appreciate their bravado, and that it is what Rome needs in the current turmoil, but remind them that the time will come soon when Roman lands are so prosperous, and so admired, that they must look to hold their arms defensively, and not raise them in conquest. Remind them that when this time comes, it will be the golden age of Rome, and it will be the world they have built for their sons, but also, the world they must teach their sons to defend. And a man who knows nothing but conquest can never know how to defend his own home, because a man who knows nothing but conquest, at the end of his life realises that in his zeal to take away the homes of another, he has never had a home himself.
Servius"
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
My fellow Senators, my apologies for what will undoubtedly be a brief and badly-lettered missive. We are on the sea south of the Peleponese, with a heading nearly straight east toward Halicarnassus. We hope to be off the high seas before the winter sets in, but one never knows.
Some of the men have never been aship before, and so there has been quite a bit of retching. However, I'm confident that they will recover their strength in time to take part in sieging and taking what remain of the Seleucid and Ptolemite settlements. They tell me it is a barren, rocky, inhospitable place for the most part, though that always means metals of some kind unless they were extracted by the ancients. This I will explore in some depth if I can amongst my other duties.
Vale.
Avicenna
10-10-2006, 22:09
The best of luck to you and your men, Valerius. May Jupiter be with you.
Would you say that our fleet is strong enough to be uncontested in the Mediterranean?
UPS - The Mediterranean? Ha! There isn't a fleet in the world that could hope to match the strength of our fleets. The Roman navy, now divided into the western, central and eastern fleets, is the most powerful navy in the world. I dare say Poseidon could not quash the might of the Roman navy.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-11-2006, 09:10
Such disrespect for the Gods is dangerous ! The mighty Poseidon may just take up that challenge.
UPS,
I believe you no longer speak truly for the Consul! Such bravado against a GOD would not be his words or feelings.
I tell you this……be wary of your back my “friend”, your master comes from Afrika as we speak, soon to address the Senate himself and I ask you how much “Bravado” you will speak of when your skin hangs like ribbon from your bones…..
To the Senate,
As you are aware Pessinus was taken a good few weeks back. I have now submitted my report for all to see about the taking of the town.
However, I have one more to submit still and it will follow in the next day……
To Appius Barbatus,
Hurry good General for, if my men have anything to do about it, there will be no Seleucids or Ptolemites left in Asia-Minor for you to best!
May Poseidon blow his strongest and aid your speed.
I am also interested to hear if Rhodes has passed its curse of Plague…..if you can find out as you pass before landing I would be appreciative?
I can tell you that the lands where we are now are like Hades itself! Desert and sandstorms are all that welcome us. Why anyone would put a town in these areas is beyond me.
I suspect that if it were not for the Oasis’s and the trade caravan traffic these towns would have long since been abandoned to the sand dunes! This place makes even Sardis seem “civilised”…..tis no wonder why my men wish to move on and be done with this “border construction”.
Good news is for my men that, should we continue at our present speed, they will have finished the task in hand well before the end of this Consulship…..then….who knows?
…perhaps the Iberians will feel what it is like to face a “real” foe?
(letter from Appius Barbatus)
Senators,
A passing merchant ship has given our men even more news to praise the gods for. Manius Coruncanius, though almost as young as I, has won an impressive victory in Asia Minor. Truly he is to be commended for overcoming such odds with so little loss in Roman lives!
As soon as the merchant had passed out of hailing distance, though, my men began to voice their concerns that there will be no Seleucids, Ptolemies, or perhaps even jackals to fight by the time we reach the coast!
Vale.
Senators,
Please send a note to my counterpart Appius Barbatus on my behalf, assuring him that I will petition the Consul himself……
……..asking that he allow me to leave at least some Ptolemites for him to vanquish.
I know of one, perhaps two, coastal towns yet to realise that Roman culture is far better than their barbaric ways.
Only one or two mind, I quite fancy allowing my men to sun themselves in a green and fertile city…..well, at least one with some “comforts” *cough*
I hope also that by that time I will be re-united with the full quarter of my army still under Garrison duties. I’ve had to fight the last two battles with far less than the Consular army I started with.
…still, for the few, greater the glory and acquisition. I can imagine those men of mine, patrolling Sardis still and cursing under their breath they are not with us now! Ha, ha, ha, ha!
Appius, you honour me. What I do, I do for the Republic, to realise the Consuls plans and, perhaps more importantly, to safeguard as many of my men’s lives as possible.
Ahhhh yes, thus I am please to announce to the Senate and indeed the citizens that for every Roman or Italian ally life that has been lost on this campaign.......nearly 18 Seleucids or Ptolemites have paid the highest price!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*There is a cacophonous clattering outside the doors before a loud thud heralds their opening. Before the doors have even swung wide, Servius and praetorian bodyguard are pushing their way into the senate floor, Servius on a direct march to UPS Maximus.*
UPS - Ah, consul! A Wondrous return to the sen-!
Servius - "Silence" the consul bellows, a vengeful booming in his voice. "You have betrayed me UPS, you have twisted my words, distorted my integrity in these proceedings, neglected, nay, intentionally declined to pass on urgent reports to this floor, and further acted in a manner that has caused me much consternation and leeched from me the good name I held amongst my fellow senators. *Servius's hand was drawing swiftly to the hilt of his gladius as he approached the clerk.*
UPS - Consul! Master! I've only done what was best for your image! *The clerk is in a baffled mess, his responce sprawls out in stutters and clear, nervous anticipation.
Servius - *The gladius is drawn, and the consul forces the clerk to his knees.* "To what end have you caused me anything but defamation?!" *The clerks words spill out in sputters and whimpers. "You have abused your position!" Servius yells, and then mutters something to the effect of "$&#@ing Greek", before thrusting the gladius into UPS's upper belly and forcing the blade down, the clerks entrails spilling out onto the senate floor and flowing down the stairs before him like a small stream. The consul then turns to adress the senate.*
Let it be known that from this moment on, no man but myself shall answer for my actions. No man but myself shall direct this senate as to the intentions of my plans or my feelings on any cause. Leaving this man to act as my voice in my absence was a grave mistake that shall not be replicated. If there are no questions, then let the midterm motions commence.
*all members of senate sigh with relif that that obnoxious greek Ups is dead*
[SENATE SPEAKER]: [...Looks anxiously at the blood dripping from Servius's gladius and begins stuttering, stumbling over his words...]
S..s...senators, I ... err... believe the Senate is open for the mid-term proceeedings. There will be a three day period of debate and the proposing of motions, ending on Tuesday 6pm UK time, followed by a one-day period of voting.... Now... err... if you will excuse me, I have ... err ... urgent business to attend to. ... Err... Most urgent...
[Hurriedly exits the Senate building, sweating profusely and continually glancing back at the figure of the First Consul.]
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-14-2006, 20:11
*Lucius nods approvingly at Servius*
Well done, grandson, a blessing long overdue. Lictors ! Remove this mess and some slaves in to clean the floor !
Now, Servius, if you would lay out your plans for your second term, the senate would be in a much easier position to discuss the future. Will you lay out your designs for the future ?
*Manius enters the Senate, casually steps over the fallen UPS. Pauses, looks down at the corpse, spits on him then moves to the centre of the Senate*
Senators of the Republic, People of Rome
As of today I effectively hand the Republic Asia-Minor. In just over ONE YEAR, my Consular army have taken six settlements and killed nearly 4,000 enemy. Now we have taken Adana and crushed the last organised Seleucid resistance. There are but two settlements left for us to strike against before we have a defensible border against further Seleucid agression. But Senators, here are the papers from the Adana garrison commanders desk......Asia-Minor is ours!
GeneralHankerchief
10-14-2006, 22:31
*A toga'd figure stumbles into the Senate, arms filled with scrolls and looking thoroughly bemused. Nobody in the Senate recognizes him. The Speaker moves to throw him out but this new figure shows the Speaker something, and is given the floor. He is totally oblivious to the corpse near him.*
"Greetings, Senators," he says cheerily. I am sent here from Afrika in order to speak for Marcellus Aemilius while he is commanding operations in that theatre. My name is... let's see, I have it here somewhere... ah yes! My name is Fed-Exus."
*The clerk, Fed-Exus, then takes one of the many scrolls and begins reading.*
"First of all, Senator Marcellus is pleased at the death of that foul Greek Clerk, and wishes many long years of hardship for him in the afterlife... oh, dear."
*Fed-Exus finally notices UPS' body and chokes back vomit. Thoroughly disturbed, he nevertheless continues.*
"At this time, Senator Marcellus would like to propose one motion. Let's see, here it is:
Motion 12.01: Conquest of further settlements in Asia Minor beyond those that Servius Aemilius has proposed in the previous year is expressly forbidden. Note: This motion does not apply to raiding."
*Fed-Exus takes a seat in the Senate, watching the further deliberations and trying not to look at the body of UPS Maximus.*
Servius nods to his grandfather, and steps out of the way so that the lictors can remove the mess he'd created from the senate floor.
"Grandfather I would gladly detail what plans I have for the second half of my term, but I have come a long way and a bit of rest would do me well to gather my thoughts and reflect upon the current situation before making any quick judgements I may regret later. I will detail my plans tomorrow, after a brief stay in Rome to meet with the people, relax, and look inside myself as to what I feel I must do to bring this Republic what it needs to be the guiding beacon of the civilised world.
Also, I would not like to make any premature insinuations regarding the east in responce to my uncle Marcellus that I would be opposed to such a motion, but the idea of halting our borders immediately at their current position could be dangerous to security in that theatre because it would force us to adopt a less favorable position both economically and defensively.
If I may propose the following change for my uncles' review?
Motion 12.01 - This senate authorises the solidification of a permanent boundary in Asia Minor that is, by no means whatsoever, to extend any further north or east beyond the territorial integrity of lands held under the influence of the cities of Heracleia, Ancyra, Adana, and Side.
This allows us to consolidate our lands in the east by eliminating the Seleucid pocket in Prusa, and by taking the three rich trade cities of Heracleia, Arsinoe and Side that, under the Roman Republic, could provide a vast amount of trade income at the benefit of actually maintaining a less expanded border than the one previously suggested.
If Marcellus and the senate were to accept my revision of Motion 12.01, then to solidify my own stance behind this border I would propose...
Motion 12.02 - If the revised Motion 12.01 is broken by the consul's actions, the consul hereby agrees to immediately step down from his position and relinquish the consulship to a new, elected consul.
I will detail more of my thoughts tomorrow after I've had a good rest, but I felt it might be good to adress this issue now.
*Servius takes one last look at the body of UPS Maximus before he heads out, a tinge of shame showing in his scowl. He had been betrayed, and he had been made to look like a fool by this man. No such thing would happen again, he'd be sure of it.*
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2006, 14:14
Fed-Exus:
Yes, yes, I believe that is... adequate. Senator Marcellus does support a permanent, uh, boundary and I agree to the revised motion 12.01 and second Motion 12.02 in place of him.
I second motions 12.01 and 12.02 and propse the following:
Constitutional Ammendment 12.A: At every midterm session of this house, we Senators will elect a Tribune of the Plebs who will have the power to veto 1 (one) motion per session. He will hold office for the session he is elected during and also the following Consular election. He may not veto Ammendments. Note: this ammendment requires 2/3 majority to pass.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-15-2006, 18:14
A Tibune of the Plebs ? Are you sure ?
I'm not entirely sure that such a position could be properly monitored, or validated, among this senatorial body.
The plebs, at least from my feelings, have always been properly represented amongst this senate by the senators who watch over them. And I have a few concerns regarding the possible abuse of such a position. Unless this tribune was unanimously elected by the senate, I feel that the potential abuse of this position for personal or factional gain may be too great to merit it's creation. The motions have always been fairly voted on by majority rule, and a blatant veto of any motion for unclear purposes is, in my opinion, a violation of the traditions and honorable democratic process of the senate.
Perhaps, though, there are differing opinions?
Senate,
I will also 2nd Motions 12.01 & 12.02.
I am unsure at this time of the validation of the Constitutional ammendment.....I await someone to enlighten me on its purpose.
.....and for GODS SAKE! will someone please remove that rotting greek corpse!
I am certainly interested in giving more of a voice to the Roman people. I have been feeling for some time now that the citizens have been sacrificing for the Republic and receiving little in return. Rome itself is beginning to become a seat of discontent and angst. We must show the world that Roman skills as as glorious in feats of engineering as they are in feats of arms. Let us set out to make Rome the envy of the world and let us create a place that rewards the citizens for their endless sacrifices.
I therefore propose the following motion:
Motion 12.03: When the current temple construction finishes in Rome next season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on a Hippodrome. When the Hippodrome is completed after five season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on an Amphitheatre.
Rome is slightly discontented at the moment because of high taxes coupled with having no military garrison or governor, it is not because of a 'discontentment with architecture'.
To rob Roman coffers of 17,500 denarii that could be used to build improved governmental buildings in any one of our several cities that need it, namely Ancona, Arretium, Ariminum, Paestum, Bononia, Ancyra, Sardis and Athens, wouldn't really be beneficial to the situation of the Republic.
The situation in Rome can be fixed with the garrison Velites we are training there now and a small temple, already under construction. The situation in these other cities will require much more expensive buildings to maintain the order, or squalor will soon take hold and ruin the prospects of maintaining a significant level of happiness there.
However, I too have realised the need to have a visible, permament display of Roman advancement throughout the empire, that all our neighbors may see we are truly the greatest people in the world, capable of structures unheard of in their lands.
I had planned the following.
1 - Large stone walls, the likes of which have yet to be seen in the world, to begin being constructed around the three greatest cities of the Republic, Rome, Carthago, and Pergamen. Not only will they be the most defensible walls in the known world, but their sheer size will place a sense of awe and wonder in their populace, ensuring them that they are safe, and increasing public order through their symbolic display of Roman strength.
2 - Extension of our Legionary training abilities beyond the Italian Peninsula. By the last season of my consulship, the cities of Massillia, Patavium, Apollonia and Pella will be well enough Romanized to merit the construction of a Provincial Barracks in each of them. This will greatly increase our ability to supply the legions with soldiers of true, Roman citizenry much closer to the far ends of the Republic than having to ship the legions from far across the seas.
3 - The construction of at least 5 arenas throughout the Republic, in places where public order most requires their usage.
4 - The construction of a Great Forum in Rome, and academies in Pergamen and Carthago.
While the idea of a Hippodrome and Amphitheatre in the city of Rome are quaint ideas for the people of the city itself, they hardly help to be of any use to the vast majority of the Republic's population.
I would advise against this motion, and instead, allow me to carry out my original plans for construction.
Let us concern ourselves for a moment with the north. You may recall that the Consul abandoned Viberi to allow a threatening Iberian army to pass. This was merely the latest of a long list of Iberian provocations, which, like most others before it, was handled poorly, by appeasing the Iberians. This stops now.
Motion 12.04: This house instructs the Consul to re-occupy Viberi with no delay, and to never again abandon it.
Motion 12.05: This house instructs the Consul to prevent the incursion of any Iberian army into Roman territory by any means at his disposal.
Senator Coruncanius if you really desire war with Iberia so much, then why don't you simply motion for it?
That's what your motions will bring to the Republic.
No, that is what your appeasement will bring. Every incident only emboldens the Iberians. When they finally eliminate the Germans, which they will do if we keep aiding them, then they'll have no reservations about attacking what they perceive as a weak Rome.
Well then let me put this clearly to you senator, I have authorised enough battles in the east under your goading and prodding and that filthy Greeks' (ups's) treacherous misconveyances of the true Seleucid strengths to last a lifetime. I will not go to war with Iberia because you're afraid some barbarian far off to the west thinks "his daddy can kick your daddy's behind".
If you want war with Iberia, then go fight alongside the Germans.
This is my decision. I will not be manipulated by your taunts.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Motions 12.04 and 12.05 must not pass Senators. At first, I was confused and thoroughly against the Consul's act of abandoning Viberi, but upon further consideration and explanation, I see that it is a sound plan in at least delaying war with Iberia until we're ready. The town itself is too far away from any of our others to be practical to defend, and it extends our borders awkwardly to the North.
As for the second motion proposed by Senator Coruncanius, it is absolutely ridiculous! Why not propose straighforwardly for war indeed! The situation around our Republic must be stabilized, borders secured, no more expasion, and our legions must be resupplied and reoutfitted. Then and only then can we look to war with Iberia, and this I believe is necessary. I don't assume there is any argument from anyone in this senate that a conflict with them is avoidable.
I should also like to be moved out of this Asian atmosphere soon Consul. I've given enough speeches to subdue unruly masses for a lifetime. Once again I must reiterate that my abilities are being wasted rotting away in towns and cities. I still carry the Legio I banner, I should have a legion to call my own.
Senator Saturninus, as soon as I can, with Pergamon becoming more and more keen to Roman rule almost daily, my brother Marcellus will soon be able to relieve you at Smyrna.
GeneralHankerchief
10-15-2006, 22:19
*Marcellus Aemilius walks in, and pauses at the body of UPS Maximus. He gives it a kick, and then relieves Fed-Exus, who looks glad to get out of the building.*
Senators, I cannot second any motion so far beyond 12.02. Our finances are needed elsewhere, and we should not provoke war with Iberia. Instead, I propose this alternative:
Motion 12.06: The next time there is an Iberian incursion into Roman territory lasting more than one season, the Consul is instructed to send Augustus Verginius into Iberian territory for a counter-incursion. However, no military action is to be initiated by Romans unless the Iberians attack. Senator Verginius' force is to be recalled immediately after the Iberians return to their territory. This motion is rendered null if Senator Verginius dies.
It is a bit wordy, I know. But it is a better alternative than Senator Coruncanius calling for war.
I would not be objectional to this.
I second motion 12.06
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I must confess I do not understand the purpose of the proposed Motion 12.06. I'll withhold judgement on it until better explained as to why we would send troops on long marches into enemy territory while enemy forces are in ours, where in case of attack, our men would have to be recalled and march back to take care of the intruders. What good would our presence in Iberian lands do, other than to provoke unecessary hostilities?
I am in favour of Quintus Libo's proposed Consitutional Amendment 12.A. However, I cannot quite second it until there is a little more clarification of the purpose of the position.
The First Consul has very significant duties and responsibility to the Republic, and each of us Senators is needed to give voice for the various areas in which our expertise lies. However, at present the position of Tribune seems simply to be a negative and short-lived position which will act only to slow down our ability to pass legislation for the good of Rome.
I propose that there be an addition to Senator Libo's amendment 12.A, to the effect that the Tribune be given equal voice to the First Consul in the expansion of the Republic. Specifically, that there be a separation of powers between the military and the economic, so that the Tribute rather than the Consul will have the power to determine and initiate all building projects throughout the Republic. In this way there will be a balance between the primarily military considerations of the First Consul, and the primarily cultural and economic considerations of the Senate.
I further propose that this power of the Tribute begin at the start of the next consulship, so as to not disrupt the current Consul's well-thought out plans.
For the good of Rome I must say this is a foolish conjecture!
Regardless that you propose such an ammendment not start until after I have left office, seperating the choice of military and economy is nothing but a problem in the making. Who is to decide what is more important in critical times, temples or men to quell rebellion? Who is to decide where troops building facilities are most needed, in the west or in the east? What amount of monetary division is to be agreed upon for construction and for recruitment? There are far, far too many points for conflicting ideas between a consul and tribune for this to benefit the republic.
If two men must run the Republic, then let them run it as a co-consulship, as my grandfather and his co-consuls have set forth as an example.
Well then let me put this clearly to you senator, I have authorised enough battles in the east under your goading and prodding and that filthy Greeks' (ups's) treacherous misconveyances of the true Seleucid strengths to last a lifetime. I will not go to war with Iberia because you're afraid some barbarian far off to the west thinks "his daddy can kick your daddy's behind".
If you want war with Iberia, then go fight alongside the Germans.
This is my decision. I will not be manipulated by your taunts.
I don't quite understand why you took my motions to be some sort of a request to you, when, in fact, they have little to do with you. You will do what the Senate orders you to do! It remains to be seen what that will be, but whatever it is, you will do it.
Still, even though I don't need to convince you in particular that these things proposed are the right things to do, and even though you have been extremely impolite in your responses, I shall attempt to reason with you in a civil manner.
Do you not realize what you have done? If you had abandoned Viberi at some other time, for strategic reasons, then that would have been a strategic withdrawal. It may have been a good strategic decision, it may have been a poor one. It doesn't matter. It would have been a strategic decision of some sort. But you had not withdrawn. In your defensive plan outlined to the Senate in the Spring of 254, you clearly indicated that you planned to occupy Viberi, and build a defensive network of forts around it, and this you proceeded to do. Only when the Iberians showed up in significant numbers, and wished to pass, did you order a withdrawal allowing them to do so. Calling it a withrdawal is being too generous, I'm afraid. You retreated in the face of the enemy.
Did Quintus abandon Apollonia? Did Marcus Laevinus abandon Scodra? Did Augustus Verginius abandon his post at the Valley in the face of an egregiously overwhelming Macedonian force? I'll stop listing examples now so that my speech doesn't take all night. Roman history is filled with instances of Roman armies standing their ground against the odds. During day and at night, in rain and snow, against twice as many and three times and five times. Romans do not retreat. And you, you retreated without actually being attacked!
You, as the First Consul, may think you are appointed to run the Roman state for some time. To conduct war, to build buildings, and to train troops. I find that those all are secondary to your main appointment: to uphold Roman honor. This you did fail to do. In the process, you betrayed yourself, your familiy, the Roman Senate, the Roman People, and Mars, and others.
Our honor, Servius, is all that we really have. We like to claim we're superior to the barbarians, and the Greeks. This is how we justify our wars. We say, we are helping them by turning them into Romans. But except for our honor, we have little moral high ground to stand on. We kill people! We slaughter them like cattle. We take their land and their homes. We tear them down to replace them with grand Roman works, which we finance by taxing whatever they have left, if anything. That goes for our own people too, except the slaughtering part. We take their money, we build pretty buildings such as this one we're in right now, and we train armies and send them off to war so that we'd have something to discuss in these buildings! But they are still better off, because they are Romans. They have honor, you see? A Greek may stab you as soon as you turn your back to him, just to take your money. A barbarian may do so for fun. But not a Roman, no. A Roman will only do so over a matter of honor. Any that do so for other reason are considered murderers and are hunted down by other honorable Romans.
I guess I've digressed somewhat. My intention with the motions proposed was to try to undo some of the damage that was done. To show the people of Viberi, and all other people, including our own, that we are Romans. To show them, in case they forgot, what that means. I hope you have not forgotten.
Senator Tiberius, I realise far more greatly and consciously what I have done than you ever could. And then for you to continue on to call me a router, that I have retreated in the face of the enemy is preposterous. I should not have to remind any man amongst these proceedings of my personal involvement with Carthage. I HAVE NEVER RETREATED IN THE FACE OF THE ENEMY! You blatantly fail to see that Iberia is not yet an enemy of Rome. Though they are an inconvenience, right now they're much more like a noisy neighbor. The feud across the fence has not yet begun, and for as long as I have something to say of it, it will not begin. Unlike you, I have not forgotten the true meaning of what it is to be a Roman, and let me assure you, it is not the example you would vaunt yourself to be.
Your quest for blood and glory has dilluted your senses senator. I once respected your intuition on the battlefield and made you an integral part of our repelling forces against the Seleucids when they threatened to overrun the Republic, now you baselessly call me a coward, dishonorable, and a traitor. Though I have not always been in the best of the senate's graces due to some serious problems that ended here. *Servius points to the rotting clerk's corpse.* All of these men can tell you that I am the farthest thing from a coward that you will ever set your eyes upon!
I care not for what the rest of the senate may say of this transgression against me, but it is not an insult I will tolerate. You have continued for many years in your open rejection of logical thought in lieu of blind pride, your disgust for the opinions of the rest of the senate which, be they good or bad in any man's eyes, are worthy of some form of respect, and have continued most affluently in these past years in your disdain for human life, prefering men be treated as animals and hosts for you to leach yourself on.
Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, I am hereby stripping you of your legion.
Cornelius Saturninus will inherit the banner of the Roman Field Army I. At least he is a good, decent Roman.
You, you are just a sick and twisted old man whose only solution to our problems is bloodshed, conquest and slaughter. Honestly senator, what would you do, if after finding that you have conquered the world, you have left nobody in it to rule? Because that is the path you would have us take.
You make me sick. I am done with you, get out of my sight.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-16-2006, 09:49
I fear the consul is suffering from delusion caused by the extremes of temperature that he has been exposed to. I hope he recovers his wits soon. In the meantime I will disregard his ravings.
If the consul carries out his threats against the august Tiberius Coruncanius, I will withdraw from active service myself. He might also find himself impeached on grounds of power-abuse.
I will second Motion 12.01, 12.02, 12.03, 12.04, 12.05 and 12.06.
I stand with Senator Lucius Aemilius. If the Consul strips Senator Coruncanius of his well-deserved command, then I too shall withdraw myself from active service and seek impeachment. If you cannot tolerate opinions that differ from your own, I suggest you stay away from the Senate until these proceedings are completed.
Furthermore, I am greatly disappointed in your attitude towards Motion 12.03. Roman citizens should not need military force to keep them pacified. We are all citizens of Rome and we should not forget why we are fighting in the first place. We do not fight for the benefit of Greeks or Gauls, but for the improvement of the Roman condition and for the benefit of the Republic. Already many cities within the Republic rival Rome in size and glory. This is unacceptable. The citizens of Rome, the very men whom we have lead to all corners of the world, deserve the fruits of their labors. If we do not give them proper rewards for their sacrifices, we are no better than tyrants. Do not forget, Consul, that the Senate exists to serve the Roman people, not the other way around.
*raises his eyebrows*
This attack on the Coruncanii does not go unnoticed by their devoted adoptee. Tiberius Coruncanius has what is left of honourable Roman blood running through his veins, something that the First Consul seems to be lacking at the present time.
Yes, Servius. Though young, I have been your supporter on the matters of Asia Minor and the Iberians. I have looked up facts, charted courses, considered and weighed and debated when the tide of opinion was against you. But after this last outburst in which you have plainly crossed the line between Roman stoicism and outright greed for power, I must denounce you and suggest that you think about your words before they betray your true leanings even further.
You speak out against the motion to install a Tribune, saying that such a position would hamper the running of the Republic. Yet we all see through this, to the bare fact that you cannot tolerate any opinion but your own. You are not acting out of a will to do good for the people of Rome, but to do good for your own house and your own comfortable retirement!
My adopted family have me at their side in this matter. I will sit as Achilles in my tent outside of Halicarnassus until such time that this Agamemnon we have before us ceases from his arrogance!
Senator Verginius, honestly, think about your proposal. A hippodrome and an ampitheatre? These buildings offer the city of Rome nothing. They don't provide it with anything else that it doesn't already have and are a significant waste of hard made denarii.
As for my "ravings", grandfather, they are hardly such, and I am hardly a power hungry tyrant. I would like for you to cite one instance, one, singular instance where I have gained from the course I have taken. Everything I have done has been done for Rome, and for you to stand by and agree with this creature's vile and baseless accusations against me is only an insult to your own sense of honor.
Senator Barbetus, good for my own house? For my own retirement? Senator think about what you're saying. My own house has abandoned me, and when I leave this consulship in two and a half years there will be nowhere for me to go but back to my legion to wait. Every time I propose anything, it is outright and violently attacked, but in 20/20 hindsight I dare you to say that anything I have done has not benefited this Republic moreso than had it not been done. I can tolerate any opinion Appius, but that does not mean that I have to sit here and take these groundless attacks.
Good Senator, you may argue all you wish, but you will speak politely in this house, or I'll remove your tounge myself!
As for my command, you can have it. I'd rather not risk being ordered to do something foolish.
Hm, more of the same. Threats from the man who first spoke impolitely, lectures on ettiquette from the man who first saw fit to ignore such an idea.
But, you will keep your command. Given the recent display I fear the fate of Rome should I be forced to leave the consulship prematurely.
GeneralHankerchief
10-16-2006, 20:55
Um, whoa. Can we have a little civility here?
First of all, I do object to the stripping of Senator Coruncanius' title. Though we have rarely ever seen eye-to-eye on issues, I do respect his ability as a commander. This man did bring Greece under Roman control, after all.
However, that said, I must once again disagree with him on the issues. His motions regarding Iberia have only one eventual outcome: war. And a war with Iberia is not the best thing we can have right now. Need proof?
a) In terms of logistics, if we conduct a war against the Iberians it will be the largest war we have fought, outpacing those against Greece, Macedon, Seleucia, or Carthage. The reason is that we border Iberia in so many places, and they share borders with few other factions. Who knows how many troops are in their homelands?
b) I do not believe we have adequate commanders in the area should a need for them arise. The first, Augustus Verginius, is a legendary barbarian-slayer, but is unfortunately of advanced age. It would not be the best thing for our forces if the Senator's legion is suddenly left leaderless in the middle of a campaign against Iberia. The second, Quintus Naevus, is an Upper House Senator, and thus, as Marcus Laevinius and Gaius Rutilus have proven, unfit for command.
Motion 12.06 is designed to avert war but still flex Roman muscle. The Iberian incursions into Roman territory have been numerous, and we have showed little resistance. They know that a war with us would be equally destructive on both sides. It is time to let them know that we are ready for one (OOC- Kind of like the Mutually Assured Destruction principle of the Cold War).
And as for Roman honor, I'm afraid that there are indeed more important things. Mainly survival.
Now excuse me Senators, for I am needed elsewhere.
*Marcellus departs the Senate floor.*
Senators!
As there appears to be no Speaker present I will call for some calm here.
Consul, your threat to remove my elder from command is unlike you and not welcome.....regardless of what cause you felt at the time warranted such an act, I strongly request that you reconsider this matter.
Over these past years I have considered you friend, I trust that you also consider me the same. We two, span our two great families and I hope that both families will see eye-to-eye for the good of the Republic.
Now, Elder father, whilst I agree that the abandonment of Viberii was and, still is, a smudge on the Repubic's honour I understand that it was nessasary at the time. The Consul did not wish to start a new War nor loose nearly a Legion for little or no gain.
IF there had been more significant re-enforcement nearby, then the Consul would have ordered otherwise. However, there was not and abandonment was all that was open.
Surely, as a wise Elder of my family, you can see the validity of this act. I know this does not sit well with the Consul, perhaps he even feels as bad and agreeved as you do on the matter.
However, I do not believe that Motions that bring us directly into conflict with Iberia without supporting Motions to allow the raising of additional troop formations are folly.
I will propose the following:
Motion 12.07 - The Senate instructs the Consul to ensure that three Legions full are stationed along the Republic/Iberian borders.
Motion 12.08 - Upon approval and completion of Motion 12.07; the Senate instructs the Consul to not permit any more Iberian incursions into Republican territory to go unchallenged. So, any more incursions are to be met with Force and expelled by any means nessasary.
I hope, that these motions balance both Tactical prudence and a hardened attitude towards our Barbarian neighbours.
A war is coming with Iberia, weather we want it or not, I want the Republic to be united AND ready for this. The East is stable and subdued, our view must move West again whilst Afrika is completed.
I have come back from a year of hard fighting and many victories, my Consular Legion and myself will be willing to be transported to our Western border to again, defend the Republic.
However, I forsee a war with Iberia and I would like the Senate to seriously consider what they would want the Consul to do when hostilities open - what aims should the Republician armies have?
Manius, I do consider you a friend, and you have been a valuable one in the past years. As I have just said, Tiberius will not be stripped of his command. My personal grievances with him are not worth the loss of the consulship.
I will second motion 12.07. We need better defences on our Iberian border and I have been working to bring this to fruition, but more must still be done.
However, while I agree war will eventually come with Iberia, it will not come during my consulship, I will see to this as best I can, and therefore I cannot support any motion that would place us in direct conflict with them.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Ah... I am glad to see that civility has returned to the Senate ... and that the guards have finally cleaned up the ... err... mess.
The scribes have collated the motions proposed so far:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1221338&postcount=1
Please advise me of any errors. Bear in mind that a motion requires two seconders in order for it to go to a vote. The deadline for motions and their seconding is Tuesday 6pm UK time.
Senator Appius Barbatus: you proposed a re-wording of Constitutional Ammendent 12A. May I suggest you either prevail upon Qintus Libo to accept your re-wording or that you propose your own? Regardless, two seconders will be needed if it is to go to a vote.
I second Motions 12.03, 12.06, 12.07, and 12.08.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I will second Motion 12.07, a fitting proposal for the current situation. Motion 12.08 however, another chance for a rushed war we may not be ready for, although I suppose with three legions in the area it would be a start.
The war with Iberia is coming, we all know this. The only question is how we are to handle it, how ready we will be when it starts, and what our situation is along the rest of our borders.
Therefore I propose Motion 12.09, that before any hostile action be taken against Iberia by ourselves, our situation in the East must be stable, in that there will be no more expansion and there will be at least two legions (three if possible) stationed there for purely defensive purposes.
I do recommend myself to participate in the campaign against the Iberians based on my previous submitions as to why I should, namely the knowledge about them and their style of warfare I've picked up in my studies at Greek academies and libraries where I've been travelling around and stationed at for years.
Cornelius Saturninus,
As I stated in my message, as far as I am concerned the East IS stable now. There is no opposition against us that I can see from my vantage point at our most Eastern border. It is true that there are still some minor settlements to encompass before we can achieve full stability in the East but there will be an arrival of another Consular sized army very soon. That, coupled with the two Legions that are to return, will be more than sufficient to settle this matter within the next year. My own Consular army can be used to construct any require fortifications we need whilst this is being undertaken and defend the border at the same time.
Truth is, that the Consul has pledged that he will do all he can to avoid a war with Iberia – however, I impress upon the Senate that they understand the wording of my 2nd Motion. It stipulates that the Legions proposed under my 1st motion be in place BEFORE it takes effect. I strongly believe that three full Legions will be more than sufficient to both eject any Iberian incursion and defend our border against them when the war starts.
I am NOT proposing they be used in the offensive, or move into Iberian held regions. That would weaken our border significantly. We would require a “free” Legion or a Consular army to take the offensive against them.
What I AM calling for in my 2nd Motion (Motion #12.08) is that we make it concrete, make it clear, that we will no longer withdraw from the Iberians – when we are prepared. I am not calling for a rushed war, only that we ensure we are prepared for the war when it comes AND initiate it on OUR terms, namely, by ejecting an Iberian army from OUR lands!
I want it clear that the Iberians will start this war, not us. THEY will again “invade” our lands, to what ends who knows, but this time……this time, we will be ready AND have the full support through the Senate to ensure these Barbarians are dealt with and sent home with a clear message that we will no longer tolerate such encroachments.
Should the Iberians then take it upon themselves to test our metal against their skin….then I say we let the Three Legions in place show them the folly of their ways. Let them crash upon our defences like waves against the rocks, let them bleed their biggest and best armies upon the swords of our entrenched Legions and then….then, Senators, we can take the offensive and end this matter like we did with the Gauls all those years ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------
As the issue of my health has been brought up, I would like to point out that I am considered to be a hale and hearty individual. I feel as full of life now as the day I first entered the Senate, perhaps even more.
*in a low voice to the Senators around him*
The secret, my friends, is regular 'exercise' with my barbarian slave. The Gauls are fearsome creatures in battle and their vigor applies equally to other areas!
If I may be so bold, Manius, in regards to your mention of a "free legion", there are already three praetorian legions on the borders of Iberia. It might mean sacrificing the promise of 40,000 denarii a season before the end of my consulship, lowering it perhaps to 35,000, but I think it would be worth it to consider the following.
War with Iberia is inevitable, the question is, when it comes, how prepared does the senate want to be?
I propose a double measured plan to deal with this issue.
Firstly, the three praetorian legions in place now will be upgraded to consular sized forces. They will be stationed at their current locations of Gergovia, Comata, and the Luvavum bridge. Like you said, this is most certainly a good idea.
Secondly, I propose motion 12.10. We recruit an additional two praetorian sized legions which will be stationed at the coastal cities of Massilia and Palma.
While we do not yet hold Palma, my feelings have brought me to consider wresting it from Carthage's hands before the end of my consulship, its tactical significance could break the Iberians before the war even starts.
The purpose of the Praetorian legion in Massilia would be to allow one of our consular sized forces in Comata or Gergovia to leave their station and advance into Iberian lands for the purpose of field engagements and a counter invasion, while the Massilian force relieves their position.
The purpose of the Praetorian legion in Palma would be to maintain a tactical strike force to hit Iberia in it's heartlands at Arse or Carthago Nova while the war rages further north. I have conducted strikes like this in the past against Carthage with enormous success in terms of battlefield victories, catching their armies unprepared, tieing their forces down, and generally sowing so much chaos that they can't properly operate.
Consul,
Whilst your plan has a great number of merits I, personally, believe it too cautious. What has experience told us about the military capabilities of the Barbarian tribes? Mainly that they can out number us 4:1 and we will still prevail with ease.
Has not the historical battles against the Gauls and the more recent battles against Carthage and with my own force against both Seleucids and Ptolemites again proved this once more?
What you are proposing is certainly safe and outstanding but.....THREE Consular sized Legions!
I do not believe the cost is warranted in the slightest. What is needed is a review of the Praetorian Legions already in place, to ensure they are at the fullest strength and have the latest weapons and armour. Then perhaps ONE free ranging Consular sized Legion in reserve should hostilities breakout and to be used as the Senate sees fit.
Offensively or defensively.
Besides isn’t there a restriction in the Constitution to limit the number of Consular Legions? I believe this is in place to limit the ultimate power of the Consul but I have not reviewed the older laws for some time.
I agree with you that Palma, perhaps, has a key in this. It is not outside or remit of war against Carthage to take it, my only concern would be supply via the sea but our navies are much stronger than they were when you first entered office so this is not such a concern now.
Therefore I second Motion #12.10
(OOC: Obviously I have OOC reasons for wanting to limit the number of Consular armies….they’re just TOO strong!)
(OOC - They are, but this is the senate! It'd be a sin not to try to trump everything in an instant! :laugh4: )
Then perhaps a simple review of the current legions capabilities, and a legion at Palma would suffice. The plan was not suggested to be set in stone, any if not all three of our defending legions could venture forth to capture land if it seemed the necessary course. The Palma legion was intended to sow confusion and secure a foothold in Iberia itself.
That sounds like a plan Consul. However, I would have preferred that the Consular Legion be stationed in Mid-Gaul perhaps rather than isolated on an Island.
An invasion by Iberia will come via our Gallic lands and whilst a harassing force located on Palma is an excellent plan, I would feel better if our main reserve or rather our active force was located nearer the epicentre of the issue.
….see, I can show caution too.
I still hold with your original plan for Palma in its completeness.
Mount Suribachi
10-17-2006, 17:35
Perhaps that might be Consul Servius's leaving present to the Senate? - an invasion force for Iberia, rather like former Consul Lucius Aemilius left an invasion force for Afrika
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for motions has passed. A poll will be posted shortly.
I would like to see that my departing present to the senate is the security of this nation on all fronts. But I have some other things in mind.
To clarify one thing with the Iberian plan, some interworkings and revisions with the logistics of other plans have set us up for the following scenario.
Provided Iberia does nothing drastic before the end of my consular term, we will have the following defences aligned on Iberia's borders.
Quintus Libo and his current praetorian legion on the Luvavum bridge.
Augustus Verginius, who I would like to grant a tribune, in Gergovia with his praetorian legion.
Quintus Naevius, who I would like replaced with a lower house senator, will be updated to a consular sized legion, as his force is at the center of Iberia's northern lands.
I will be leading a praetorian sized legion to take and hold Palma, from which we could launch a naval invasion of Carthago Nova, a significant Iberian stronghold in the south.
Oppius Aemilius, with a praetorian legion, will take and hold Tingi by the end of my consulship, this will give us the ability to strike at Gades, Iberia's southernmost settlement, and a close one to Carthago Nova, allowing us to relieve each other should anything unexpected occur.
Five seperate points from which Iberia would have to contend all at once, two of which it will most certainly not expect to be assaulted from.
This is the plan for Iberian deterance or war that I would leave the senate with at the end of my consulship.
A good plan Consul. Those forces are more then enough to counter-assualt Iberia should she try anything against us. In fact, I think if you put is in the position you say you will, I will move for war with Iberia next session...
Mount Suribachi
10-18-2006, 06:55
An excellent plan Consul, to hit Iberia with a succession of powerful, near-simultaneous blows. They will have lost the war before they realise its even started!
Thank you Oppius, I only wish my mind for personal relations were as great as my mind for military strategy. Were it, I may not have such trouble with losing the good graces of the senate, or in finding myself a suitable wife.
As the issue has been raised, I am significantly pleased by Consul Aemilius' achievements in creating a secure border in Europe. The system he has arranged so far goes a long way to providing security for the Roman people and for our most important provinces. Whatever else anyone may say about the Consul, he should be given credit for this most important success.
Servius,
You haven’t been threatened with impeachment or to be removed from office for at least TWO whole days! Surely, that is some form of moral victory for you friend?
As for Women….erm…word to the wise. You have to stay somewhere where there are women rather than just Legionaries or smelly, barbaric, and I’m told very hairy, Carthaginian females!
That's why I said suitable, I'm not quite that desperate yet. Hahaha.
And thank you Senator Verginius, I know I may not always be amongst the senators' most respected compatriots, but I make good on my promises. Of that you can be sure.
Speaking of..the Danube is due for some reinforcements. Servius Nero and grandfather Lucius have seen strong successes against the Thracians, but forces, even with success, dwindle. I will see what can be done to raise their strengths in the coming years.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-19-2006, 00:18
Consul Servius,
I wish you good luck and wisdom in your next term. As I have already privately expressed, while not enraptured by your overal strategy, you have certainly presented the senate with succes after succes. I will make the appropriate sacrifices to the Gods to ensure that fortune continues favouring you.
I would bother you with one last matter. While you have already fulfilled most of the earlier motions, or at least working on completing them, the anxious people of the cities of Capua and Ancona have pleaded with me to remind you of
Motion 11.7: We will extend citizenship (i.e. build citizenship building) to the cities of Capua and Ancona during this consul's term.
which still needs to be acted upon I believe. I hereby fulfill my promise to them to remind you of this senate decision and convey their pleas to you.
Senator Lucius Aemilius,
What I am concerned with now, is that the Senate has voted for more spending on building projects – motion 12.06 – such a commitment as this is huge! Even compared with building the required administration buildings in Capua and Acona.
I, personally, cannot see where the Consul will get the funds for BOTH motions to be completed in the next 2.5 years.
If it was a choice between them, I would reward the people of Capua and Acona.
Death the destroyer of worlds
10-19-2006, 08:52
I do not agree senator,
We should easily be able to afford to implement both these motions. I am confident that the consul to execute the will of the senate.
Firstly, grandfather, the appropriate buildings are already well under construction for the extension of citizenry to these cities.
Secondly, save the sacrifices for the next consul, and pray that he does a better job of keeping this senate more united than I have.
It is not something I am keen to admit, but I am judgemental, and rarely change my opinions. That, coupled with the fact that my passion lies with the greatter good of Rome, and not necessarily with all of the individual desires of the senate...it is easy to see where our opinions collide.
So far, the only passed motion that was voted on before the midterm that has not in some way yet been acted upon is the invasion of Rhodes, which was stalled due to the plague being reported on the island. But the situation there has subsided and it has once again become a viable target.
Consul,
I trust your comments were in good humour as a lesser man may have taken such words directed to your Elder in anger?
As such, I agree that you require little in extra sacrifice to the Gods to fulfil your remaining duties, though, perhaps one of them could loan the Republic some coin so you can complete these "games" arena's.
Do not feel too aggrieved Consul, you are young and perhaps many years will pass before such responsibility will weigh you down again.
We have discussed this in private, remember my words to you.
I myself have considered running for Consul but have previously stated I will not do so until I have passed my 30th year. I hold to that pledge, it is, perhaps too greater burden for one as young as us?
They were in good humor, forgive my coldness, even the deserts of Afrika have done little to warm my tone of voice. There is a wry smile from the consul.
The Senate speaker picks up the weighty tome recording the Senate deliberations and frowns. He mutters to himself:
"Sixteen pages... it's getting quite a handful. The end of a mid-term session seems a suitable place to stop."
He wraps the tome in string and calls out to the scribes to bring in a fresh volume.
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