Asians on a plane..... [Archive]

InsaneApache

08-21-2006, 08:56

As opposed to snakes.....seems that some of my fellow countrymen are doing exactly what the terrorists want. Divide and.....well I'm sure you all know the rest....

MUSLIM MPs yesterday called for an end to hysteria about terrorism after passengers refused to allow an aircraft to take off until two Asian men were removed from it

Families began leaving the plane because they feared two young men on the Monarch Airlines flight to Manchester, from Màlaga in Spain, were suicide bombers.

Two British Asians in their twenties were heard speaking a language some passengers took as Arabic while in the departure lounge. Travellers were also suspicious that they were wearing warm clothing, though the temperature at their destination would have been 55F (13C).

Linky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2321731,00.html)

This is one of the effects of the Blair government cranking up the paranoia last week. Now we hear that half of the suspected bombers from last week are not going to be charged with any offense....what's the betting it's another cock up? :sweatdrop:

Duke of Gloucester

08-21-2006, 09:26

Reading the BBC report, it is not clear whether the airline or the Spanish authorities removed the men. Neither is it clear whether they were removed because the other passangers refused to travel with them (which would be wrong) or because their behaviour was genuinely suspicious. However incidents like this cause bad feelings amongs Moslems.

Fragony

08-21-2006, 10:13

'MUSLIM MPs yesterday called for an end to hysteria about terrorism'

Ahhhh as always we should know better :juggle2:

English assassin

08-21-2006, 10:15

Since Iam now outed as a raving aviation snob, I will just remark that

Monarch Airlines flight........., from Màlaga in Spain,

Says it all really.

Who to blame? Surely its terrorists rather than the government who mainly create the atmosphere that breeds this sort of stuff (no disrespect to tribesman who will surely swing by soon but wilst its true to say that 99.99% of muslims want nothing to do with this, its also true that its not the girl guides who are trying to blow stuff up.) And people who are returning from malaga on a monarch airlines flight are not likely to be at the bleeding edge of race relations.

(I flew Monarch to Turkey once. NEVER AGAIN. To be honest if I'd had liquid explosive with me I'd have blow the plane up* myself for the good of the country)

*NB this is a joke, in case special branch are reading this

Banquo's Ghost

08-21-2006, 12:34

I thought that this footnote from the report on The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/21/arab_speakers_grounded/)was the best summation of how foolish we have all become:

Years ago, I flew Monarch Airlines from London to Malaga and found myself sitting next to a very amiable Iranian who offered me the ham from his lunch because "Persians are not big on ham". Nowadays, this suspiciously friendly behaviour would probably lead passengers to suspect he was about to detonate a red mercury-based nuclear device and accordingly demand his immediate tazering and transfer to Guantanamo Bay.

:no:

Scurvy

08-21-2006, 12:50

i thought this was terrible when i saw it on the news (especially the interviews with passengers - who seemed to think they had done the right thing)

rory_20_uk

08-21-2006, 14:59

Most read newspaper: the Sun
Most watched TV: Football / reality drivel
reacreational activity: drinking

Yes, the average level of knowledge in the country is appalling. If the whole subject can't be sumarised by someone with a massive cleavage / a footballer in two sentences chances are it'll be missed.

Couple a lack of scholarship with those that do read more tend to focus on things that agree with their way of thinking (IMO Jag for example should read the Telegraph - what's the point of reading Socialist Worker / Guardian if all it does is reinforces one's prejudices?)

~:smoking:

English assassin

08-21-2006, 16:04

If the whole subject can't be sumarised by someone with a massive cleavage ... in two sentences chances are it'll be missed.

Alas, too true. I bet they would never have been chucked off the plane if they had been Asian babes.

(mm, does this ban on gels on planes include breast implants I wonder?)

Banquo's Ghost

08-21-2006, 16:12

(mm, does this ban on gels on planes include breast implants I wonder?)

Now you're thinking like a clever terrorist. Amazing the loopholes in security one can think of, isn't it?

Mind you, if the government brings in new security checks for ensuring the ladies are properly and thoroughly checked for 'dangerous' liquids, I may have to re-activate my commission. :bounce:

Fragony

08-21-2006, 16:16

Mind you, if the government brings in new security checks for ensuring the ladies are properly and thoroughly checked for 'dangerous' liquids, I may have to re-activate my commission. :bounce:

I have an even better idea. Let's explain them that 72 virgins isn't necesarily fun.

http://education.umn.edu/ceed/images/crying.jpg

Vladimir

08-21-2006, 17:50

This is one of the effects of the Blair government cranking up the paranoia last week. Now we hear that half of the suspected bombers from last week are not going to be charged with any offense....what's the betting it's another cock up? :sweatdrop:

Yea, the Blair conspiracy to blow planes as they left England. Really, you anti-Blairites really amaze me, it's like a religion. Not like Christianity of Islam but like global warming. And this happened in Spain? Blair's tenticles of fear are long indeed. :oops:

HALF the people? From the AP.

LONDON — Eleven people were charged Monday in connection with an alleged plot to blow up as many as 10 trans-Atlantic jetliners, prosecutors said Monday — including eight people charged with conspiracy to commit murder. One person, a woman, was released without charge.

Eleven people planning to blow up 10 planes isn't enough for you?

Tribesman

08-21-2006, 18:51

What they should have done was get all those who didn't want to travel , take them off the plane and make them charter their own plane home .

Since Iam now outed as a raving aviation snob
If you were EA you would probably love most of the middle-eastern airlines .

Duke of Gloucester

08-21-2006, 19:02

What they should have done was get all those who didn't want to travel , take them off the plane and make them charter their own plane home .

Trouble is that we would like people to report their suspicions and be alert. Were they worried because these people looked Arabic or because they were acting an a suspicious way. We don't know.

Horatius

08-21-2006, 20:30

Stop slandering our own countrymen.

From the BBC article those two Muslims not Asians where acting very suspicious.

Who wears enourmous coats during the summer, especially this summer?

Also you can use the term muslims here, nobody will accuse you of being BNP because you say Muslim instead of Asian. It doesn't make me an aviation snob to be suspicious of people who wear trench coats during a scorching summer, that is one thing that used to be applied to Irish Terror when the IRA used to bomb everything in sight.

Also I do not think that the terrorists are a tiny minority of extremists. They are simply muslims who act on prejudices that according to Pew Polls done in free Western Countries where Muslims have absoloutly no reason to be afraid to speak out against terrorist half of the Muslims polled revealed support for the 7-7 bombers.

Tribesman

08-21-2006, 21:32

From the BBC article those two Muslims not Asians where acting very suspicious.

They walked to the front of the queue , they waked to the back of the queue , they looked at their watches then sat down . Very very suspicious :dizzy2:
Have you ever been to an airport ?

Who wears enourmous coats during the summer, especially this summer?

Lots of people .
It doesn't make me an aviation snob to be suspicious of people who wear trench coats during a scorching summer
Hey I know your weather isn't quite as bad as ours , but 13C is not scorching is it .:dizzy2:

Stop slandering our own countrymen.

Errrrrrrrr....the two "suspects" are your countrymen , so perhaps you should heed your own advice .

according to Pew Polls done in free Western Countries where Muslims have absoloutly no reason to be afraid to speak out against terrorist half of the Muslims polled revealed support for the 7-7 bombers.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Has Frag done a name change .
So horace would you care to publish the poll , you know the actual questions and the responses from the poll .:no:
Or are you just talking rubbish ?

Pannonian

08-21-2006, 21:41

Stop slandering our own countrymen.

From the BBC article those two Muslims not Asians where acting very suspicious.

Who wears enourmous coats during the summer, especially this summer?

Air conditioning?

Also you can use the term muslims here, nobody will accuse you of being BNP because you say Muslim instead of Asian. It doesn't make me an aviation snob to be suspicious of people who wear trench coats during a scorching summer, that is one thing that used to be applied to Irish Terror when the IRA used to bomb everything in sight.

Also I do not think that the terrorists are a tiny minority of extremists. They are simply muslims who act on prejudices that according to Pew Polls done in free Western Countries where Muslims have absoloutly no reason to be afraid to speak out against terrorist half of the Muslims polled revealed support for the 7-7 bombers.
Here is one Londoner who thinks your views are reactionary and unrepresentative of my city as a whole. Should we shun Muslims after these "scares"? Hell, we didn't even shun them the day after the bombings, so why should we do so now?

L'Impresario

08-21-2006, 21:41

Hey I know your weather isn't quite as bad as ours , but 13C is not scorching is it .

For me personally 13C is definately coat weather, otherwise I'd immediately start thinking that certain people have more common elements with siberian bears than I could ever suspect .

JimBob

08-21-2006, 21:57

Who wears enourmous coats during the summer, especially this summer?
I'm don't think 55f is cold, but then, that is a number I see a fair bit in the fall and spring. Plenty of people find that cold.

Also you can use the term muslims here, nobody will accuse you of being BNP because you say Muslim instead of Asian.
Where in the article does it say the two are Muslim. Just Asian. They could be Sikh, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, Taoist, Buddhist, Atheists. Asia is a pretty big place, with a fairly large and diverse population.

Me thinks this is more in line with the Americans who shot Sikhs after 9/11 because the were wearing turbans.

Horatius

08-21-2006, 22:13

1. Have you guys ever been to Spain? Their summer are not exactly trench coat conditions.

2. I am a Polar Bear who swims in the channel regularly.

3. Incase your memory is short during the summer Irish+Enourmous Coat=Susupicion enough for a thorough search during the IRA kill sprees, perhaps we should apologize to every Irishmen wrongly suspected, or shall we admit that it was neccessary to defeat the IRA?

4. Pannonian you are right the anti-semite Ken Livingstone unfortunately represents you and many Londoners. I also would like to know where I said we should shun muslims? I am advocating beating Islamic Terrorism the way we defeated Irish Terrorism, which was not by denial of it's existence.

5. You ask me to substantiate what I said? Well do you expect me to use the Times, or Sky News? No I will use Al Gaurdian and here you go http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html

6. At the BBC Asian is a code word for Muslim, so while it might just be an Asian this time, that is not normally the case. I do not aprove of barring anyone from flight, but I do understand why someone would be afraid someone wearing a trench coat when it wasn't cold might have a bomb, what I think should have happened though is that the authorities should have confiscated the coats, not made the two "Asians" leave the plane.

Tribesman

08-21-2006, 22:39

1. Have you guys ever been to Spain? Their summer are not exactly trench coat conditions.

Yep , and I saw lots of people wearing warm clothing . Wierd that isn't it .

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: 3. Incase your memory is short during the summer Irish+Enourmous Coat=Susupicion enough for a thorough search during the IRA kill sprees:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
What planet are you on ?

5. You ask me to substantiate what I said?
Clearly from a different planet .:dizzy2:
In case you didn't know , if you want to substantiate something by providing a link , it is generally a good idea if you post something that actually substantiates it .:oops:
By supplying one that doesn't have anything to do with what you claimed it implies that either you cannot read or your mind works in a different way to other peoples .:no:

6. At the BBC Asian is a code word for Muslim
You clearly need :help: very badly .

Edit to apologise for post #15 sorry Frag , Horace is clearly way beyond a comparisson to yourself when it comes to poll results .

Shaun

08-21-2006, 22:48

What they should have done was get all those who didn't want to travel , take them off the plane and make them charter their own plane home .

No, these peoples judgements on whether or not the Asian guys were terrorists were helped by two well known facts

1)If you are speaking Arabic in a non Arabic place, you MUST be a terrorist.Everyone knows this... surely?

2)If a Muslim is wearing warm clothing he MUST be hiding dynamite under his clothes, you see Muslims are immune to cold and dont need to wear warm clothing when the temp is 13C.

Also, in the interest of public saftey, Nick Griffins calls for Muslims to be banned from flying should also be considered, if 0.0000000001% of a group of people have done such things as suicide bombings, then quite clearly this is enough a percentage to stop the whole of Islam from flying, I mean the less than one in a million chance of your flight getting hijacked is far too bog, right?

Pannonian

08-21-2006, 22:50

1. Have you guys ever been to Spain? Their summer are not exactly trench coat conditions.

What is the airport at Malaga like? If it's anything like Heathrow, the air conditioning can be pretty chilly. I once caught a fever in a temperate country from the contrast between 35C outside and 20C inside, and I always carry a jumper with me nowadays, whatever the heat.

Snip fatuous comment.

3. Incase your memory is short during the summer Irish+Enourmous Coat=Susupicion enough for a thorough search during the IRA kill sprees, perhaps we should apologize to every Irishmen wrongly suspected, or shall we admit that it was neccessary to defeat the IRA?

And there I was thinking that political engagement with Sinn Fein, political equality and greater prosperity in Northern Ireland was the key to defeating the IRA. It turns out I was wrong all along, and jumping people with big mofo coats was how we beat the Fenians.

4. Pannonian you are right the anti-semite Ken Livingstone unfortunately represents you and many Londoners.

Any cites of Red Ken's anti-semitism? Most groups, including Jewish groups, agree he is the biggest friend of minority groups there is, with one of the main complaints being that he panders a bit too much on the basis that a coalition of enough minorities will constitute a majority.

Also, would you like to explain how "the anti-semite Ken Livingstone unfortunately represents me and many Londoners" (paraphrased)? I see the snide accusation of anti-semitism which is used to describe Livingstone, but which in this context is evidently meant to refer to me as well - "anti-semite represents me and many Londoners" - but I see no description of the other views Livingstone is supposed to personify and which are represented in "me and many Londoners". Since there are no views other than anti-semitism which you describe as represented in "me and many Londoners", I have to ask, are you calling me an anti-semite? If so, are you going to back that up, or are you going to apologise for calling me thus?

I also would like to know where I said we should shun muslims? I am advocating beating Islamic Terrorism the way we defeated Irish Terrorism, which was not by denial of it's existence.

Recognising its existence and dealing with it are two different things. Do you have any idea how counter-terrorism works?

5. You ask me to substantiate what I said? Well do you expect me to use the Times, or Sky News? No I will use Al Gaurdian and here you go http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html

There are many people asking you for cites. Whom are you replying to? What point are you trying to make with this poll?

6. At the BBC Asian is a code word for Muslim, so while it might just be an Asian this time, that is not normally the case. I do not aprove of barring anyone from flight, but I do understand why someone would be afraid someone wearing a trench coat when it wasn't cold might have a bomb, what I think should have happened though is that the authorities should have confiscated the coats, not made the two "Asians" leave the plane.
Asian is BBC code for Muslim? Cites? One of the recent stories was how British Asians were coming through in cricket, with particular reference to Monty Panesar. While he is brown-skinned, has a beard and wears a turban (or something similar), he is definitely not Muslim.

Horatius

08-21-2006, 22:52

Pannonian

08-21-2006, 22:59

I posted the link last time and I will repost it for you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...804078,00.html

1. A trench coat is very warm, and not needed in warm summers, however it can cover a bomb which is why Irishmen who wore them very often used to get searched.

2. I gave you the link

3. Whenever the BBC reports on issues involving Muslims around where I live the word Asian is used, even if they are converts.

4. You are getting very personal on this, so perhaps it would be best for you to stop arguing and allow other people who can remain calmer to continue in your stead.
Do you have problems quoting and replying to each point so readers know what you're talking about? At the moment, it's like reading footnotes, except the footnotes don't refer back to the main paragraph, so text and explanation are disconnected and incomprehensible.

Tribesman

08-21-2006, 23:10

Pannonian , he is posting the link to prove what he said about the findings of the poll are true , unfortunately for horace the poll says nothing of the sort .

Whenever the BBC reports on issues involving Muslims around where I live the word Asian is used, even if they are converts.

Where exactly is this planet where you live ?

Horatius

08-21-2006, 23:11

What is the airport at Malaga like? If it's anything like Heathrow, the air conditioning can be pretty chilly. I once caught a fever in a temperate country from the contrast between 35C outside and 20C inside, and I always carry a jumper with me nowadays, whatever the heat.

I have never been to that city, however someone needs to argue the other side, or else this wouldn't be much of a thread now would it? Even on the Medieval Total War 2 threads (A game not out yet) there is two sides in each thread.

And there I was thinking that political engagement with Sinn Fein, political equality and greater prosperity in Northern Ireland was the key to defeating the IRA. It turns out I was wrong all along, and jumping people with big mofo coats was how we beat the Fenians.

As a reult of our tight fisted counter measures they where not able to kill nearly as many Britons as they wanted, which was a major element in beating them.

Any cites of Red Ken's anti-semitism? Most groups, including Jewish groups, agree he is the biggest friend of minority groups there is, with one of the main complaints being that he panders a bit too much on the basis that a coalition of enough minorities will constitute a majority.

If I told any minority apart from Welsh or Scottish (Well that might not be the best word for either of them) to "Go back where you came from" I would be arrested, yet he gets to tell two Jewish Businessmen to go back where you came from and not even get reprimanded at work, and can you source the Jewish Groups supporting him? Last I checked The Board of Deputies was an enemy he was consistently insulting, and he is a friend of Yusuf al Qaradawi one of the most extreme anti-semites on the face of the planet and someone who he consistently shields. Of course I am NOT I repeat NOT and to keep this debate civil and say it once more to make sure you see it NOT calling you an anti-semite, I am calling Red Ken that, I wouldn't call you an anti-semite, insulting means you lose the debate.

Recognising its existence and dealing with it are two different things. Do you have any idea how counter-terrorism works?

There are many ways to do it, if you mean the right way I can tell you what I think the right way is however nobody knows that for sure.

There are many people asking you for cites. Whom are you replying to? What point are you trying to make with this poll?

That was in response to something tribesmen said.

Asian is BBC code for Muslim? Cites? One of the recent stories was how British Asians were coming through in cricket, with particular reference to Monty Panesar. While he is brown-skinned, has a beard and wears a turban (or something similar), he is definitely not Muslim.

I will look for it, however I am multitasking at the moment so be a bit patient.

Pannonian

08-21-2006, 23:45

I have never been to that city, however someone needs to argue the other side, or else this wouldn't be much of a thread now would it? Even on the Medieval Total War 2 threads (A game not out yet) there is two sides in each thread.

So you were mocking people for lack of knowledge about the place, but your own knowledge is surmised rather than experienced or even quoted.

As a reult of our tight fisted counter measures they where not able to kill nearly as many Britons as they wanted, which was a major element in beating them.

IRA attacks in mainland Britain weren't aimed at killing people. If they were, we wouldn't have had the telephone warnings. They were aimed at causing civil disruption.

If I told any minority apart from Welsh or Scottish (Well that might not be the best word for either of them) to "Go back where you came from" I would be arrested, yet he gets to tell two Jewish Businessmen to go back where you came from and not even get reprimanded at work, and can you source the Jewish Groups supporting him?

When was this incident? Care to provide a cite? The only supposed anti-semite comment I know of was his likening of a Jewish Evening Standard supporter to a concentration camp guard, and he has had a long antipathy with the Mail and Standard's proprietors and their wartime close Nazi links.

Last I checked The Board of Deputies was an enemy he was consistently insulting, and he is a friend of Yusuf al Qaradawi one of the most extreme anti-semites on the face of the planet and someone who he consistently shields.

Red Ken caters to many minorities, at different times. Muslims is one such minority. Jews is another. Afro-Caribbeans, east Asians, eastern European, other ethnic minorites. Add homosexuals and other non-ethnic minorities to the list.

Of course I am NOT I repeat NOT and to keep this debate civil and say it once more to make sure you see it NOT calling you an anti-semite, I am calling Red Ken that, I wouldn't call you an anti-semite, insulting means you lose the debate.

Insulting means I lose the debate? I don't think I've met that kind of reasoning since I left school. I'm more used to debates that avoid open insults as a matter of course, but I'm also used to seeing rhetorical tricks used to disguise covert insults. You used one such trick, using a personification (Ken Livingstone), attributing an odious viewpoint to him (anti-semitism), then saying that he represents "me and many Londoners". Voila! Calling me an anti-semite without openly doing so and risking action from the mods. Except that 1. I'm aware of this trick, and 2. you haven't backed up any of your accusations.

There are many ways to do it, if you mean the right way I can tell you what I think the right way is however nobody knows that for sure.

There are tried and tested ways of countering terrorism, especially where the perpetrators are generally members of a known community. The methods you've described are known to be not only ineffective, but counter-productive, both locally and in general.

Horatius

08-22-2006, 00:03

So you were mocking people for lack of knowledge about the place, but your own knowledge is surmised rather than experienced or even quoted.

No I was mocking people for not seeing that wearing trench coats during the summer just might be suspicious in a world where anyone might be a terrorist.

IRA attacks in mainland Britain weren't aimed at killing people. If they were, we wouldn't have had the telephone warnings. They were aimed at causing civil disruption.

That argument doesn't work for the Irgun's attack on the King David Hotel, and it doesn't work for the IRA either.

Red Ken caters to many minorities, at different times. Muslims is one such minority. Jews is another. Afro-Caribbeans, east Asians, eastern European, other ethnic minorites. Add homosexuals and other non-ethnic minorities to the list.

By doing this (which answers your next point) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395659565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull ? If I had done something similar I would have found myself arrested.

Insulting means I lose the debate? I don't think I've met that kind of reasoning since I left school. I'm more used to debates that avoid open insults as a matter of course, but I'm also used to seeing rhetorical tricks used to disguise covert insults. You used one such trick, using a personification (Ken Livingstone), attributing an odious viewpoint to him (anti-semitism), then saying that he represents "me and many Londoners". Voila! Calling me an anti-semite without openly doing so and risking action from the mods. Except that 1. I'm aware of this trick, and 2. you haven't backed up any of your accusations.

Well first you misread what I said, I said I would lose the debate if I insulted you, second the fact that Ken Livingstone is mayor shows he does represent many Londoners, third I just backed up the assertion, fourth you started out by calling me a reactionary.

There are tried and tested ways of countering terrorism, especially where the perpetrators are generally members of a known community. The methods you've described are known to be not only ineffective, but counter-productive, both locally and in general.

Well who won the conflict Britain or the IRA?

Tribesman

08-22-2006, 01:05

Well who won the conflict Britain or the IRA?
Neither , they reached a negotiated settlement which most were happy with , apart from a few Republican fanatics and the No Surrender crowd in the 6 counties .
Which is funny really , as if the mainstream no surrender crowd object to the peace deal that is in place as they consider it a British surrender then that means the IRA won in their eyes .

JimBob

08-22-2006, 06:14

I'm going to ask again, where does it say they were Muslims. It says that they were asains speaking something that the passangers took to be Arabic. Meaning they were brown people talking funny.

Oh yeah, another thing.

UK's most senior Muslim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/5269042.stm)

young Muslims (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5269688.stm)

Divinus Arma

08-22-2006, 07:28

I was pleased to see this. The response of the two ejected passengers was a model of understanding. These two gentleman put up with all of that crap and acted like true genlteman. Truly noble on their part. They made the rest of the passengers look like frenzied lunatics. As for the passengers, I think that we have an obligation to make our concerns known. We also have the right to leave at anytime if we feel our safety is in jeopardy. Good for them. As for the politics of the situation: If muslims weren't the ones waging Jihad against the west, then dark-skinned men wouldn't get this kind of treatment. If I were a Muslim or eastern, I would be more pissed off at the wacko islamofascists who are indirectly screwing with my life then the poor uneducated citizenry who are acting out their fear.

Tribesman

08-22-2006, 07:38

I'm going to ask again, where does it say they were Muslims.
But you don't get it JimBob , its the BBC when they say Asian they mean Muslim , its a secret code you see .
So when you post your link about a senior Muslim policeman it doesn't mean he is a Muslim or a policeman its the BBC secret code for "him" really being a Norwegian fisherwoman .

Ser Clegane

08-22-2006, 08:09

I'm going to ask again, where does it say they were Muslims.

Even if they were muslims, it is highly unlikely that the protesting passengers knew that they were.
Unless these guys were wearing "proud to be muslim" T-shirts or started any prayers, it is rather likely that they were just judged by racial features or by speaking what the other passengers assumed to be Arabic.

BTW, if somebody manages to get a bomb that requires a coat for hiding on board a plane at Malaga I would think that they have quite a serious security problem there ... at all airports that I visited so far you have to take off your coat when you pass security and then get patted down - I would assume that this is also the case at Malaga's airport (especially after the recent incidents), so considering a person to be suspicious because he/she is wearing a coat seems to be somewhat silly on a plane.

ezrider

08-22-2006, 09:45

Even if they were muslims, it is highly unlikely that the protesting passengers knew that they were.
Unless these guys were wearing "proud to be muslim" T-shirts or started any prayers, it is rather likely that they were just judged by racial features or by speaking what the other passengers assumed to be Arabic.

I agree here. What defines an Arab/Asian? Are all Muslims, terrorists or only the Arab looking ones? How the hell do a bunch of obviously paranoid ignorant, racist swine know the difference between Arabic, Farsi ,turkish, hindi or Urdu or Malay languages?

Would it matter if they did?
Obviously not. Their prejudice covers an area of the world from turkey and north Africa, the middle east, the Indian subcontinent and depending on who they are(the police for example) Brazil. Thats a good third of the population of the world.

maybe they would be in favour of segregation like the Yanks were pre 1970's. All the darkies in the crappy planes, all the nice white folk on the good planes(this doesn't apply to budget airlines, where all the planes are crappy).
If you go that far you may as well have segregated tubes, buses, schools....

Divinus Arma

08-22-2006, 10:26

We did it to the Japanese in World War II...

I'm not saying it was right or wrong. I am just pointing out that there is a precedent.

Banquo's Ghost

08-22-2006, 10:38

We did it to the Japanese in World War II...

I'm not saying it was right or wrong. I am just pointing out that there is a precedent.

Yeah, well, for a thousand years we in Europe blamed the Jews if our carrots grew in a wonky manner, and lonely old ladies with warts for our sheep eating the neighbour's turnips.

There's lots of precedents for scapegoating - doesn't mean we should continue the mistakes of our forefathers.

Divinus Arma

08-22-2006, 11:15

Yeah, well, for a thousand years we in Europe blamed the Jews if our carrots grew in a wonky manner, and lonely old ladies with warts for our sheep eating the neighbour's turnips.

There's lots of precedents for scapegoating - doesn't mean we should continue the mistakes of our forefathers.

Actually there is a big difference. Did the Jews attack your largest fleet? No. but the Japanese did. And likewise, did Jews get into planes and murder everyone aboard as well as a few thousand in the major financial capital of the planet? I think not.

How can you compare Europe's unwarranted hatred of the jews to an enemy that has attacked America?

Kind of a dramatic difference in all fairness. :no:

ezrider

08-22-2006, 11:28

Interning Japanese Americans(or Irishmen - early 70's N.Ireland) out of paranoia and fear of further attack is nothing like hating Jews for no reason.

One may see many parallels in the way the British muslim community may be treated and the way Irish people were treated.
- Internment - not likely
- shooting protestors at a Civil rights march - not likely, not impossible
- framing innocent people for crimes they didn't commit and leaving them to rot in jail for 25 years - more likely
- shooting a man dead in the street without warning because he had a tableleg in a bag and was Irish - a Paranoid thought he was a terrorist with a shotgun and phoned the cops who shot first asked questions later. - they did it already (the Brazilian)

this kind of behavior only leads to communities being ostracized, when they should be integrated for the safety and mental health of all.

*off topic*
I don't get that Jew hatred thing at all? All of Christianity is basically an extension of Judeaism[sic?], Jesus was a Jew, so was God and the Holy spirit (if you believe in the Trinity )until baptised By John, when He became ... something else? Christians believe in the Old Testament, especially the idea that God created the world, which is a Jewish idea in a jewish book.
I suppose its as stupid as Catholic vs Protestants or any sectarianism for that matter.

Banquo's Ghost

08-22-2006, 11:44

Actually there is a big difference. Did the Jews attack your largest fleet? No. but the Japanese did. And likewise, did Jews get into planes and murder everyone aboard as well as a few thousand in the major financial capital of the planet? I think not.

How can you compare Europe's unwarranted hatred of the jews to an enemy that has attacked America?

Kind of a dramatic difference in all fairness. :no:

But American citizens of Japanese descent did not attack the fleet. Yet they were interned 'just in case'.

The Jews were scapegoated for all sorts of things - by the standards of the times, their alleged 'crimes' were also thought to threaten the state, but they were also very useful for blame because they had a different culture, and refused to conform. Some Jews were in positions of 'threatening' power because of their pre-eminence in the development of banking, but most were as poor as everyone else. Didn't stop them all getting labelled as money-lenders and used as scapegoats for whatever we didn't want to own ourselves.

The principle I am arguing is that it is counter-productive to label an entire group as dangerous merely because some people who share certain characteristics have committed criminal acts or are suspected of doing so.

I have personal experience of this, both from the side of counter-terrorism activities, and from the unfortunate victim of 'racial' profiling. In the early eighties, when the IRA was up to a fairly serious campaign, I was arrested three times and dragged into assorted police stations - on the strength of having an Irish accent (gets noticeable when I'm having a beer) and listening to the Pogues in a pub.

In each case I was a serving British Army officer. When the plods searched me, they immediately suspected I was some sort of terrorist when they found my warrant card and banged me up. Note, the immediate suspicion was that their prejudice was right, and that therefore the warrant card must be fake. In each case, it took my colonel to come down and bounce the eejits off the wall.

When allowed to get on with my day job, I was fully aware, both from our training and my own experience, that reacting to prejudice put lives at risk. Behavioural profiling is much more accurate. Sadly, ordinary plods are not given this training, so random stop and search is back on the agenda because it looks good to the gallery - and guess what, if you happen to be Asian you get stopped a lot more, and resentment builds.

I must admit to being a little stunned that you don't appear have been given this type of training when detailed to protect your president, let alone your tour of Afghanistan. The basics are de rigeur for police actions/peacekeeping in the British Army. Or maybe you're just being your controversial self. :wink:

R'as al Ghul

08-22-2006, 13:03

Let's give out dressing orders each morning via radio.
"Today, it's going to be about 13°C, so no trenchcoats or similar garnments allowed."
That should help sort out the terrorists. :wall:

English assassin

08-22-2006, 14:20

on the strength of having an Irish accent (gets noticeable when I'm having a beer) and listening to the Pogues in a pub.

Yourn name isn't Winston Kodogo is it?

[That sketch in full, for the benefit of foreigners/the young]

"Now then, Savage, I want to talk to you about some charges that you've been bringing lately. I think that perhaps you're being a little over-zealous."

"Which charges did you mean then, sir?"

"Well, for instance this one: 'Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing.' Savage, maybe you're not aware of this, but it is not illegal to use a pedestrian crossing, neither is 'smelling of foreign food' an offence."

"Are you sure, sir?"

"Also, there's no law against 'Urinating in a public convenience or 'Coughing without due care and attention."

'"If you say so, sir..."

"Yes, I do say so, Savage! Didn't they teach you anything at police training school?"

"Erm, I'm sorry, sir..."

"Some of these cases are just plain stupid: 'Looking at me in a funny way' - Is this some kind of joke, Savage?"

"No, sir."

"And we have some more here: 'Walking on the cracks in the pavement,' 'Walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness,' and 'Walking around with an offensive wife.' In short, Savage, in the space of one month you have brought one hundred and seventeen ridiculous, trumped-up and ludicrous charges."

"Yes, sir."

"Against the same man, Savage."

"Yes, sir."

"A Mr Winston Kodogo, of 55, Mercer Road."

"Yes, sir."

"Sit down, Savage."

"Yes, sir."

"Savage, why do you keep arresting this man?"

"He's a villain, sir."

"A villain..."

"And a jail-bird, sir."

"I know he's a jail-bird, Savage, he's down in the cells now! We're holding him on a charge of 'Possession of curly black hair and thick lips."

'"Well - well, there you are, sir."

"You arrested him, Savage!"

"Thank you, sir."

"Savage, would I be correct in assuming that Mr Kodogo is a coloured gentleman?"

"Well, I can't say I've ever noticed, sir."

"Stand up, Savage! - Savage, you're a bigot. It's officers like you that give the police a bad name. The press love to jump on an instance like this, and the reputation of the force can be permanently tarnished. Your whole time on duty is dominated by racial hatred and petty personal vendettas. Do you get some kind of perverted gratification from going around stirring up trouble?"

"Yes, sir."

"There's no room for men like you in my force, Savage. I'm transferring you to the Special Patrol Group."

"Thank you very much, sir."

(Historocal note: Special patrol group roughly equals riot squad, notorious for duffing people up)

InsaneApache

08-22-2006, 16:25

SPG was also the name of Vivians hamster.....:sweatdrop:

Banquo's Ghost

08-22-2006, 16:33

Yourn name isn't Winston Kodogo is it?

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

You know, in my original draft, I some paraphrases from the sketch, but decided to pull them because I was trying to be serious. Evidently the flavour still came through!!

Sometimes however, Python is truer to life than one has a right to expect.

InsaneApache

08-22-2006, 16:37

Except it wasn't Python. :embarassed:

Now that's got ya hasn't it? :laugh4:

English assassin

08-22-2006, 16:46

You know, in my original draft, I some paraphrases from the sketch, but decided to pull them because I was trying to be serious. Evidently the flavour still came through!!

As soon as you mentioned being arrested for "listening to the Pogues" the phrase "He's a villain, sir" came to mind.

I can't actually remeber where the sketch came from originally , was it The Secret Policeman's Ball?

Banquo's Ghost

08-22-2006, 17:09

Except it wasn't Python. :embarassed:

Now that's got ya hasn't it? :laugh4:

You're right. That's my theory busted.:embarassed:

Was it the Secret Policeman's Ball? Must therefore have been Peter Cook?

Hmm, just looked it up. Apparently it was Not the Nine o'clock News!

InsaneApache

08-22-2006, 17:38

Hmm, just looked it up. Apparently it was Not the Nine o'clock News!

Give that man a cigar.

As an aside, anyone who listens to the Pogues and appreciates them gets a free spliff and beer in my teepee.

A Rainy Night in Soho is just classic. :2thumbsup:

Banquo's Ghost

08-22-2006, 18:34

As an aside, anyone who listens to the Pogues and appreciates them gets a free spliff and beer in my teepee.

A Rainy Night in Soho is just classic. :2thumbsup:

Excellent - I'll be round at nine. :bounce:

I agree with your choice, though my favourite has to be 'Down in the Ground Where the Dead Men Go' closely followed by 'Kitty'.

Listening to 'If I Should Fall from Grace with God' right now. :2thumbsup:

(We digress, methinks).

Horatius

08-22-2006, 18:57

I cede this debate, I can tell when I lost.

Don Corleone

08-22-2006, 19:09

This isn't really a question of racial profiling (or banning it). This is a question of treating innocent parties in a civil fashion. Frankly, I find this incident abhorent. If the two gentlemen had actually done something to be removed from the plane, such as violating the prohibited items checklist, acted or spoke threateningly or failed to comply with the cabin steward's commands, that's one thing. But as far as I can tell, this was a matter of "we feel afraid of them". Too damn bad. If this had been an American airplane, United or American (or Airtran for the budget airline point) would be facing a MASSIVE lawsuit, and most likely they'd be settling as quickly as they could, because they would lose.

Racial profiling doesn't mean discrimination. Just as doing a full body cavity search on grandma dragged from her wheelchair to prove how PC you are is ridiculous, once you've applied your security screen you have to have faith in it and treat people justly and fairly. Shame on the passengers and shame on the airline for caving in to them.