Ancient Era mods: frustration

[eadingas]

I'm counting at least a dozen of mods situated in ancient RTW era. Many of them very ambitious. A couple total conversions.

None of them is near completion. Human resources are stretched all over the community. There can only be so many good skinners, modellers and scripters. MTW2 is soon out, and how many mods for RTW are there that can be described as "complete" ?

This situation is frustrating for many projects. There are obviously some projects that are much more advanced than others. You probably think this is another "EB needs help" post, but I'm sure this applies to all the "Old School Mods"... we all need good modders. Think how fast new versions of the main mods would come out if the human resources weren't stretched on a myriad of minor projects with great ambitions, that pretty much strive to repeat the work of the "big ones" but just want to do everything by themselves. New units? New map? New buildings? New music? It's been done already a couple of times! Why not use your skills for common good instead?

Personally, I think this is one of the biggest problem this community is facing. Modders not wiling to cooperate with each other, but rather squabbling over "my leet modding skills are better than yours" or "I have a better idea of antiquity than everyone else, so I'll make my own antiquity mod".

What do you think?

[Duke John]

I disagree, I think it has to do more with "My vision about a mod covering the ancients is different than yours." And there is nothing wrong with that. Why would a modder give up his own idea for the sake of realizing the idea of someone else? I think only when the other idea strikes him as being superior.

If the modders want to avoid the same situation with M2:TW then they need to focus more on improving their people and presentation skills. Just read the first posts of these mods (just picked a few from the first page):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=817526&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1093977&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1200220&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1059204&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=752297&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1020406&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1214511&postcount=2
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=802568&postcount=1
How many of these would convince you that their concept is awesome and humbles your own? Perhaps some of them may have their features and concepts explained in more detail and/or with more enthusiasm in later posts, but the first posts is what most people read, you can't expect that they read everything. Few use formatting to attract the reader's attention with captivating paragraph titles.

Most of the above mods present their mods with features such as new skins, more regions, "accurate" history and some tweaks to gameplay. That is as convincing as a chef cook trying to make a customer buy the menu of the day simply because it has chicken, potatoes and garlic. I can probably find 2 mods which have similar feature lists but that with very different gameplay and atmosphere. To me the game mechanics or other features that achieve that difference are of much greater importance than those standard "technical" features lists.

I think it is worth the trouble looking up "design documents" and just browse the internet and see how professional companies present their games. Which makes you want to buy their game and why?

And then there of course modders who just want to tweak the original game a bit or are so new to the hobby that few modding teams would want to devote time to learn them the secrets of the trade. Nothing wrong with that. It just results in quite a few little mods.

p.s. In no way was my intention to discredit the linked mods. The quality of the mod may be superb, but their first posts simply does not encourage me to read more or download the mod. I am not interested in more regions, accurate unit names or other "general improvements". I want to know how they plan to immerse me into the period, and why they think they can do that better than CA.

[eadingas]

I disagree, I think it has to do more with "My vision about a mod covering the ancients is different than yours." And there is nothing wrong with that. Why would a modder give up his own idea for the sake of realizing the idea of someone else?

Because in a bigger team he has more chance of actually achieving more than on his own? A larger group can get the mod up and working faster than a smaller group, even if there is always more debating and discussing in a larger group. So what if you believe your version will be better, if it's not going to be released at any reasonable date?
The mod teams are not dictatorships. There is always plenty of discussion behind the scenes, and if a modder believes his version is better, he's got a chance to discuss it with others and perhaps convince them (or get convinced).

As for the presentation - well, isn't this a part of the problem? If there are so many mods out there, it's hard to think of anything new and interesting. How many new skins and models can there be for a roman legionnary? As many as there are modellers willing. How many of them are people willing to try out? Two? Three? And instead of creating yet another roman legionnary, a modeller could join a larger team and make models for other units that are needed. How many script tweaks to battle can you make? The RTW engine is not that flexible, so again, people will be in effect repeating work of others instead of contributing to something new.

I've no problems with tweakers, or with another era mods, at least they're doing something new... but as a member of a dev team that struggles constantly with lack of manpower (even though it's still one of the largest around), seeing this manpower stretched over half a dozen other projects that have even less chance of ever getting completed, and are basically repeating what's already been done, strikes me simply as a terrible waste of talents.

[Duke John]

Because in a bigger team he has more chance of actually achieving more than on his own?
True enough, but how many people realize and accept how long it takes to finish a mod and wether it will be worth all the trouble in the end? There are loads of people who want to make a MMORPG and post in game development forums convinced that they have a chance of succeeding. The time it takes to complete a mod does not stop many people from starting their own mod. Some may be just ignorant, another hope that other modders join, and others simply have enough talent and time to finish the mod on their own. Trying to fix that attitude is futile.


As for the presentation - well, isn't this a part of the problem? [...]
I didn't quite understand your point. I did not necessarily mean that every mod must have an unique feature. Even with identical "technical" features you can have very different mods.

[Ciaran]

True it´s not efficient, but there´s nothing any amount of discussion can or will change. Mods are done in spare time, and that means people work on what they want to work on, there´s no way of forcing them to join projects. Simple as that.

[eadingas]

True it´s not efficient, but there´s nothing any amount of discussion can or will change. Mods are done in spare time, and that means people work on what they want to work on, there´s no way of forcing them to join projects. Simple as that.

Nobody's saying anything about forcing people to do what they don't want to do. But maybe some could be convinced by what I'm writing here.

[Luciano B]

...If the modders want to avoid the same situation with M2:TW then they need to focus more on improving their people and presentation skills. Just read the first posts of these mods (just picked a few from the first page):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=817526&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1093977&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1200220&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1059204&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=752297&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1020406&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1214511&postcount=2
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=802568&postcount=1
How many of these would convince you that their concept is awesome and humbles your own? Perhaps some of them may have their features and concepts explained in more detail and/or with more enthusiasm in later posts, but the first posts is what most people read, you can't expect that they read everything. Few use formatting to attract the reader's attention with captivating paragraph titles...

...sorry but I think that's a bit ungenerous...

Since you added my post among those which in your opinion are not interesting, let me say that it was not my intention to be charming or attractive, I simply introduced the historical background of the mod. I think that the other posts which closely followed the first one (...just a minute after!!!...) explained pretty well the "technical" and "artistic" contents of the mod:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60838

However, I worked on the mod mainly to enjoy myself, following my personal interest in that particular historical period (...it is also uncovered by other mods...). If other people would like my work I'll be surely happy, but it is not the main aim of the mod.
It is just a personal hobby.

[wlesmana]

Nobody's saying anything about forcing people to do what they don't want to do. But maybe some could be convinced by what I'm writing here.

Convinced of what, though? Convince them that they should finish someone else's mod? Modders are not in this for money or for the the completion of some mod for the community. Modders mod because they have their own vision. The ones who joined up are either share a vision or realized they could not cut it by their own and had to compromise their own ideals and goals.

Since the goal of modding is ultimately your own personal satisfaction, now you tell me, which is more satisfying: knowing your own fruits of labor came to be appreciated and your vision of how a game should be be realized, or having someone else's game be done?

[Epistolary Richard]

eadingas, as much as I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to have playable mods to download - I don't really think that much is going to be gained by this negative approach of lambasting the new modders coming to field that you're trying to interest in joining a team.

How to encourage the highest ratio of completed projects is something that I've spent a good amount of time thinking about. Emphasising the benefits of working in a team, I agree, is a good thing (there's a reason why every single Modding News Roundup has a section on joining mod teams). It's only part of an approach, however. There's a limit to the benefit you get by just throwing more and more people at a project.


So what are the other things that we can do? Well, I have some thoughts on that matter - but what do people think?

Firstly, though, some ground rules as to this discussion as we're discussing modders own personal effort and time here:

1) Stay positive, we're here looking for solutions - things we _can_ do, not endless reasons we _can't_ do something.

2) No fingerpointing, as has been well said already, we all do this in our own time and for our own reasons - if you think something represents an important lesson for others, especially if it's a project that you've been a part of, then mention it - but this is about learning salutory lessons from the past not finding culprits in the present.

[eadingas]

(I don't want to fingerpoint, but I'm not the one who did the fingerpointing ;)

It obviously wasn't my intention to be patronizing or belittle the "little mods". Besides, I was referring only to the mods which are very similar in scope and in idea.

Of course, there comes a point in every team project where any amount of "human resources", to use corpspeak, becomes obsolete, if there is no proper HR management. On the other hand, though, even the best HR management can't do anything if there are too few resources.

One of the problems that I noticed is a negative attitude towards working in a team. As if somehow once you join another modding team, you'd become their slaves without right to have your own opinion or ideas. Don't know where this came from, but it's definitely not so. Firstly, you can discuss things with others and convince them to see the way you do. Secondly, if for some reason your ideas can't agree with the team, you can still work on your own ideas outside the team. A good example of that is Prometheus, with his Res Gestae mod and EB work.

If all that you're doing is some tweaks to vanilla RTW, some extra skins, a minor script or a model, and you don't feel like you can spend time and resources on anything more, then it's completely understandable that you'd want to work alone. But if you have greater ambition, it's really hard for me to understand why would you NOT want to join a larger team.

The way I see it, the "RTW Era" mods move in two directions: historical accuracy and improved gameplay. Not that these directions are exclusive of course, but some mods move more one way, some another.Now, I don't want this to result in "dividing" the modding community between the two Big Guys - EB & RTR - of course. Just to point out some patterns here.

When I started my adventure with modding, as soon as I earned a little bit of skill, I wanted to join a modding team, rather than do things on my own. I checked out RTR, then joined EB, as the idea behind it was closer to my mind. There weren't many alternatives back then, of course. But what occured to me was that I had two choices: start making a small mod of my own, "Eadingas Modification" (which I did, in fact, although it was a very shortlived project) or join a larger team and try to smuggle some of my ideas there. Some of these ideas were good, and now they're in EB. Some proved to be bad or impossible, or too hard, and they're not. But the point is, I got an opportunity to achieve much more as a member of EB than on my own. If I couldn't do something, there were others that could. If I didn't know a solution to a problem, others helped me. And mutual. So I didn't release an "Eadingas Mod". So what? I can see my ideas and dreams come to fruition in ways I couldn't imagine before joining a large team. EB is "my mod" as much as "Eadingas Mod" would be, even though my part in its completion was pretty near insignificant. How else could it be? Whose mod is RTR? Who owns NTW2? Entire team does.

I suppose that is all I have to say to this - a lesson about benefits of joining a larger team. As for other solutions to the problem... I don't have them. I just felt like venting my frustration. I would love to hear opinions of others, though...

[Epistolary Richard]

My experiences with modding teams is somewhat similar. I started modding and put together a couple of smaller mods of my own. When it came round to something on a larger scale though, I knew that the community demanded more from a mod than what I was, on my own, able to provide. At about that time I joined a modding team and, because there were people there to put together the things I couldn't, what I could contribute made a lot greater an impression than a solo, far more limited, project of my own could achieve.

You mentioned two of the larger teams, but I've been constantly impressed by what has been achieved by a small number of modders working together. Mods such as Blue Lotus, The First Triumvirate, The Crusades, Darthmod, SPQR and more have been put together by a few, highly motivated individuals. And even where modders are not able to generate the big-wow factor items such as models and skins themselves, they've been able to incorporate material from other members of the community who've created models, skins, maps and artwork so that it can be incorporated in other modifications.

[Divinus Arma]

Eadingas,

Imagine if the EB and RTR teams merged. Who is going to cede what and to whom? These are two projects that seek a similar goal (though which is more ambitious, I leave to the audience). Would the RTR team want to join EB and give up its independence? Would EB join RTR and likewise? Honestly, I wish that your passion here were followed. We would end up with several "super mods" that would be equivalent of entirely new purchases. Many folks would have loved to see the RTR and EB teams come togther; that would be the realism mod to last the ages and it would be complete already.

But more on point- I agree with you, but I see the challenge. The modding community is one of competition first and cooperation second. At least that is how I have observed it. (proof can be found in the "secrets" hoarded by every team, which will only be released when the mod is complete.)

And thus ends my time in this thread. Good night.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

If the modders want to avoid the same situation with M2:TW then they need to focus more on improving their people and presentation skills. Just read the first posts of these mods (just picked a few from the first page):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=817526&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1093977&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1200220&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1059204&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=752297&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1020406&postcount=1
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1214511&postcount=2
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=802568&postcount=1
How many of these would convince you that their concept is awesome and humbles your own? Perhaps some of them may have their features and concepts explained in more detail and/or with more enthusiasm in later posts, but the first posts is what most people read, you can't expect that they read everything. Few use formatting to attract the reader's attention with captivating paragraph titles.

Most of the above mods present their mods with features such as new skins, more regions, "accurate" history and some tweaks to gameplay. That is as convincing as a chef cook trying to make a customer buy the menu of the day simply because it has chicken, potatoes and garlic. I can probably find 2 mods which have similar feature lists but that with very different gameplay and atmosphere. To me the game mechanics or other features that achieve that difference are of much greater importance than those standard "technical" features lists.
Well from the perspective of the RTG project, I value your points regarding P&P skills. The project title is hardly differentiating, let alone creative, but then I'm not an artistic or creative person as these areas have never interested or appealed to me.

I've been working on this project on / off for roughly 10 months, and I've sometimes wondered whether this may have been utilised more efficiently elsewhere. Modding for this length of time (the vast majority of it alone) really forces you to consider the modding future: do I want to continue creating / developing modification projects, is modification still as appealing before a project such as this was undertaken? If I bought M2TW, would I be satisfied with the vanilla content? Or would I need to modify it to my own tastes, perhaps taking these personally modified text files and releasing them as an alternative to the TW community?

As eadingas has mentioned, modding teams have the obvious advantage that tasks and workloads can be divided amongst team members dependent upon their skills and knowledge. Whereas working almost independently is frequently daunting: you need to discipline yourself, plan ahead, but most importantly stay determined and focused.

There was more than one occasion where a string of CTDs, bugs and issues almost made me stop modding in the early days of the project's development. However, I suppose perseverance and the extensive research provided by members of the TW community at forum databases such as this one may enable you to locate a solution to a problem. On other occasions though, you're on your own. What happens if an unknown / unheard of problem arises? You have to spend time trying to crack it using what (if any) fragments are available, otherwise leave it and attempt to move on.

As in the case of Luciano B, modding for myself is merely a hobby. Most games I've bought have been tweaked in one way another, something to pass the time and / or to improve the experience. I tend to switch between games frequently, but the modification project undertaken upon RTW is definitely the greatest amount of time I've dedicated to one game consecutively.