Parthian lineup with Elephants

[CountMRVHS]

Hello,

I'm doing quite well in a 1.5 Parthia campaign. I've modded a few things to tone down the Egyptians and beef up the Seleucids. So far I have crushed Armenia and grabbed Seleucia, Hatra, Damascus, and Palmyra. I have an army poised to take Antioch, which will probably be the death-knell for the Seleucids.

I've done *very* well with an almost-exclusively HA army, and in 10 or 20 turns I should be able to make my War Elephants.

My question for you is how best to fit the elephants into the Parthian battle line. With the only other elephant-faction I've played, Carthage, I usually put the eles on the flanks of my infantry line, or out in front to break the AIs formation and follow-up with an infantry charge. But Parthia *has* no infantry line.

My battles have involved splitting up my HAs and Persian Cav into three squads. One squad goes straight to the front of the enemy and shoots them. Squad 2 and 3 go to either flank of the enemy and try to work around behind them to shoot them in the sides and rear. With much micro-management, I entice the AI to split up its core of infantry, surround the units with HAs, and get them to rout one by one. So, in addition to not having an infantry line, I don't even have a proper *battle* line as such.

I can't argue with my results, as I'm usually very outnumbered and come off winning with minimal casualties. But I'm wondering where War Elephants could possibly fit with these kinds of tactics? How do you use your elephants (and later units, such as cataphracts and camels) as Parthia?

CountMRVHS

[Conqueror]

My suggestion is to use the Elephants in cooperation with Cataphracts. Have your elephants charge 'through' the enemy units (ie don't order them to attack the unit, instead direct them to run to a spot behind the unit) and as soon as they have passed through (they quite literally just plow through units!) you order your cataphracts to charge.

Elephant-plowing causes the enemy units to become disordered, which makes them very vulnerable to a cavalry charge. They also inflict a severe morale penalty which basically guarantees that all but the most elitest units will route as soon as the cataphract charge hits them. Quite a few units might route just from the elephants alone.

Do keep in mind that the beasts are vulnerable to javelins and pilums, and that some units (such as Velites) have a bonus against them. They are also scared of fire arrows. Use your horse archers to destroy enemy velites and archers before bringing you elephants to bear. Good luck with your battles.

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

[Drusus Magnus]

Yeah, look out for archers. I once faced the Egyptians with Seleucid elephants. The Egyptians had like 5 Pharao's Bowmen units, and they ordered them all to fire flaming arrows at my one unit... Elephants are great for distracting the dimwitted AI.

[lars573]

I regard elephants, of any faction. As living siege weapons. Very powerful but very vulnerable. My Parthian armies, at a full stack is.
1 General
1 War elephants
2 Cataphracts or cataphract camels
2 Arab or Bedouin cavalry (I modded the game to make them recruitable by the Parthians and Armenia :wink3:)
2 archers
4 hillmen
or
4 archers
2 eastern infantry
8 persian cavalry or HA (but usually Persian cavalry)

I put the ranged cav in front. With the Infantry and general in a block behind. The cata's on one flank, the elephants and melee light cav on the other.

[x-dANGEr]

Just like you would do with the Sass on BI..

Charge with ele unit, and then steam roll with all your catas.. (I prefer around 9 units) and win.. Next stack, repeat and win, etc..

[orangat]

Charging with 9 units of elephants isn't exactly the best strategy since it takes a huge amount of cash and clumsy. And keeping tabs on 9 units to make sure they don't rout is cumbersome as well.

I would use the elephants to cover horse archers.

[CountMRVHS]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I'm pretty sure xdanger meant 9 units of cataphracts, not elephants. Regardless, I'm quite a ways away from that yet.

Susa just built the 3rd-level stable, and, when confronted with the option of training War Elephants or Cataphracts first, I went with Cataphracts. Reason being, I haven't had any pure melee units this entire game, apart from light mercs like Arab Cavalry. I've used the standard surround 'em & shoot 'em approach with HAs, but my general rule has been to avoid melee at all costs until the enemy is routing. With Cats, I can wear them down and then charge in, which should help bring battles to a decision more quickly.

The nature of my enemies is also about to change considerably. My light, HA-heavy armies have worked miracles against Seleucia's mobs of militia hoplites and phalanxes, but now that my allies the Egyptians turned on me over a dispute in Judaea (I noticed they were moving an army toward rebel-held Jerusalem so I besieged it first, then they attacked me), the same tactics are earning me a much higher casualty count. The Egyptians are fielding fairly mixed forces of bowmen, slingers, desert cav, and the dreaded chariots. All this means my HAs can't simply surround and destroy in detail as they'd prefer: they get chased around and caught up in melee far more frequently.

In addition to the Egyptians, I imagine my ally Pontus won't look kindly on my interference in Anatolia. I have an army besieging the Seleucids in Sardis right now. Once I take the town, I give the Pontics maybe 10 turns before they show their true colors and stab me in the back. I'll have to deal with their light-cav-heavy armies and hope for the best.

So, the addition of a heavy strike force to my armies is welcome indeed. I'm training a couple cats in Susa now, to join up with a larger force of Persian cav and HAs, and then send them down towards Egypt to try them out. After that, I'll try out the elephants. I imagine they'll really come into their own once I face Roman legions. The way things are going now, that clash could take place either in Africa with the Scipii or in Greece with the Brutii. Or maybe the Romans will surprise me and invade *my* realm.

Thanks again for the advice, and keep it coming!

CountMRVHS

[Doug-Thompson]

I regard elephants, of any faction. As living siege weapons.

I agree with that, and take it quite literally.

Notice that elephants are slower than cavalry on the battle map, but just as fast as cavalry on the strategy map. I presume that this is because "speed" is much the same as endurance on the strategy map. Elephants walk faster than men and can keep it up longer, therefore they're "cavalry" on the strategy map.

This makes them just the thing to go from one barbarian province to another with an all-cavalry army. Smash down the city gate and let the cataphracts do the rest.

Against more advanced factions, I use elephants as super fire support units. I move them to a spot where the enemy's making some headway, alt-attack so they will use the archers and not charge, and add their arrow fire to the HA. The result is usually panic and massacre.

[x-dANGEr]

Charging with 9 units of elephants isn't exactly the best strategy since it takes a huge amount of cash and clumsy. And keeping tabs on 9 units to make sure they don't rout is cumbersome as well.

I meant catas. ~;)


The nature of my enemies is also about to change considerably. My light, HA-heavy armies have worked miracles against Seleucia's mobs of militia hoplites and phalanxes, but now that my allies the Egyptians turned on me over a dispute in Judaea (I noticed they were moving an army toward rebel-held Jerusalem so I besieged it first, then they attacked me), the same tactics are earning me a much higher casualty count. The Egyptians are fielding fairly mixed forces of bowmen, slingers, desert cav, and the dreaded chariots. All this means my HAs can't simply surround and destroy in detail as they'd prefer: they get chased around and caught up in melee far more frequently.

Against Egyptians with Parthia.. The only thing you have that can effectively kill chariots in melee is elephants.. Too bad I guess. You can pin them with Desert Cavalry and then charge them with Catas, but that path is costly..

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Chariots.

Mercenary camels panic their horses too, which is entertaining. Just be sure to stay away from them. Panicked chariots are almost as dangerous as elephants.

[Manstein]

Against Egyptians with Parthia.. The only thing you have that can effectively kill chariots in melee is elephants.. Too bad I guess. You can pin them with Desert Cavalry and then charge them with Catas, but that path is costly..

What about infantry? A large mass of semi-upgraded Eastern Infantry can take down a few chariot units. Chariots are vulnerable to even weak infantry. Especially when they are spearmen and recieve a combat bonus, but of course depending on what difficulty you play, your Eastern Infantry can rout quite easily, because chariots already cause a devaluation in morale to foot units.

[x-dANGEr]

Eastern Infantry work, but more costly and risky. IMO.

[CountMRVHS]

Well, after a few turns of war with Egypt things have really quieted down, so I'm not worried about facing their chariots anymore. I took Petra from them easily, which left them with the 3 Nile cities plus Siwa. From Petra I took a young family member and an all-cav, mostly HA army towards the Nile to pick off Egyptian armies in the field. There were a few close battles, where the Egyptians had several units of heavy chariots & chariot archers, but I managed to win them all thanks to my HA superiority. I knew I'd take some losses from the slingers and chariot archers, but I simply had so many HAs it didn't matter in the end. Heavy chariots fell very quickly to my HAs; chariot archers took longer but fell just as surely. A few turns later that army besieged and took Alexandria; I followed up with another army from Petra and took Memphis. Now that army is besieging Thebes and there are no large Egyptian stacks in sight. Once Thebes falls I'll regroup, then send a force to take Siwa and finish them off. That will put me up against the Scipii, who have taken all of Western Africa.

The war in Anatolia proceeds apace, and just as I had predicted, as soon as my faction leader took Sardis, Pontus declared war. Actually, they didn't so much "declare" it as fail an assassination attempt :laugh4: . At this time I had finished training my first War Elephant unit in Susa, and sent them west with 2 cats, 6 Persian cav, 6 HAs, a general, and some Scythian and Sarmatian mercs. I've only had one battle involving the elephants, and they didn't play a part. I was relieving Tarsus by attacking the besieging Pontic army, and used my standard "HA-envelopment" tactic. The elephants, my shock-cav and general I left back while the HAs and Persian cav did their work. After a few minutes of getting shot up and some inconclusive skirmishing the Pontics had enough and quit the field. I pursued them north into Anatolia and that army is now laying siege to Mazaka. Hopefully the enemy will sally out and I'll be able to use my units to best effect, but my general is young and has the time to wait out the siege if need be.

Elsewhere in Anatolia, as soon as Pontus declared war I pulled together an army from Armenia and sailed them down to Sinope. I could see that the Pontics had, typically, left their cities lightly defended and had their full-stack armies near their southern borders, so I was able to quickly take their capital. This distracted the Pontics enough for me to raise some Persian cav and HAs in Sardis and send them north to meet up with the Sinope army. En route, however, they were attacked by a small Pontic force, beat them, and I got a "man of the hour" quite unexpectedly -- a 4-star 20-year-old! With some mercs and reinforcements from the Sinope army, that force is now besieging Pergamum, which holds a full stack and seems to be one of only 2 areas of serious Pontic resistance (the other being the full-stack near Mazaka). Once those 2 towns fall it should be a leisurely mop-up operation.

I still haven't won the short campaign because Seleucia is still around on Salamis and Sidon, but I think I'll try to play through the long campaign on this. Once Anatolia is secure my next major offensive will be to push through Africa, which means fighting the Scipii. I can't wait to fight Romans. :2thumbsup: After that I'll probably hop over the Bosphorus into Greece, try to get my 50 provinces, and take Rome for the win.

CountMRVHS

[Doug-Thompson]

Eastern Infantry work, but more costly and risky. IMO.

Than elephants?~:confused: I've never known EI to stampede.