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Lemur
08-24-2006, 22:41
Reportedly, there are grumblings from the GOP that our intelligence agencies aren't issuing enough warnings about Iran. Sound familiar?


Some policy makers have accused intelligence agencies of playing down Iran’s role in Hezbollah’s recent attacks against Israel and overestimating the time it would take for Iran to build a nuclear weapon.

The complaints, expressed privately in recent weeks, surfaced in a Congressional report about Iran released Wednesday. They echo the tensions that divided the administration and the Central Intelligence Agency during the prelude to the war in Iraq.

The criticisms reflect the views of some officials inside the White House and the Pentagon who advocated going to war with Iraq and now are pressing for confronting Iran directly over its nuclear program and ties to terrorism, say officials with knowledge of the debate.

Complete text:

August 24, 2006

Some in G.O.P. Say Iran Threat Is Played Down

By MARK MAZZETTI

WASHINGTON, Aug. 23 — Some senior Bush administration officials and top Republican lawmakers are voicing anger that American spy agencies have not issued more ominous warnings about the threats that they say Iran presents to the United States.

Some policy makers have accused intelligence agencies of playing down Iran’s role in Hezbollah’s recent attacks against Israel and overestimating the time it would take for Iran to build a nuclear weapon.

The complaints, expressed privately in recent weeks, surfaced in a Congressional report about Iran released Wednesday. They echo the tensions that divided the administration and the Central Intelligence Agency during the prelude to the war in Iraq.

The criticisms reflect the views of some officials inside the White House and the Pentagon who advocated going to war with Iraq and now are pressing for confronting Iran directly over its nuclear program and ties to terrorism, say officials with knowledge of the debate.

The dissonance is surfacing just as the intelligence agencies are overhauling their procedures to prevent a repeat of the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate — the faulty assessment that in part set the United States on the path to war with Iraq.

The new report, from the House Intelligence Committee, led by Representative Peter Hoekstra, Republican of Michigan, portrayed Iran as a growing threat and criticized American spy agencies for cautious assessments about Iran’s weapons programs. “Intelligence community managers and analysts must provide their best analytical judgments about Iranian W.M.D. programs and not shy away from provocative conclusions or bury disagreements in consensus assessments,” the report said, using the abbreviation for weapons of mass destruction like nuclear arms.

Some policy makers also said they were displeased that American spy agencies were playing down intelligence reports — including some from the Israeli government — of extensive contacts recently between Hezbollah and members of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard. “The people in the community are unwilling to make judgment calls and don’t know how to link anything together,” one senior United States official said.

“We’re not in a court of law,” he said. “When they say there is ‘no evidence,’ you have to ask them what they mean, what is the meaning of the term ‘evidence’?”

The criticisms do not appear to be focused on any particular agency, like the C.I.A., the Defense Intelligence Agency or the State Department’s intelligence bureau, which sometimes differ in their views.

Officials from across the government — including from within the Bush administration, Congress and American intelligence agencies — spoke for this article on condition of anonymity because they were discussing a debate over classified intelligence information. Some officials said that given all that had happened over the last four years, it was only appropriate that the intelligence agencies took care to avoid going down the same path that led the United States to war with Iraq.

“Analysts were burned pretty badly during the run-up to the war in Iraq,” said Representative Rush Holt, a New Jersey Democrat who sits on the House Intelligence Committee. “I’m not surprised that some in the intelligence community are a bit gun-shy about appearing to be war mongering.”

Several intelligence officials said that American spy agencies had made assessments in recent weeks that despite established ties between Iran and Hezbollah and a well-documented history of Iran arming the organization, there was no credible evidence to suggest either that Iran ordered the Hezbollah raid that touched off the recent fighting or that Iran was directly controlling attacks against Israel.

“There are no provable signs of Iranian direction on the ground,” said one intelligence official in Washington. “Nobody should think that Hezbollah is a remote-controlled entity.” American military assessments have broadly echoed this view, say people who maintain close ties to military intelligence officers.

“Does Iran profit from all of this? Yes,” said Gen. Wayne A. Downing Jr., the retired former commander of the Special Operations Command and a White House counterterrorism adviser during President Bush’s first term. “But is Iran pulling the strings? The guys I’m talking to say, ‘no.’ ”

Many senior Bush administration officials have long been dismissive of the work of the intelligence agencies. Shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Pentagon set up an office led by Douglas J. Feith, the Defense Department’s third-ranking civilian official at the time, that sifted through raw intelligence to look for links between terrorist networks and governments like Iraq’s.

In the months before the Iraq war, Vice President Dick Cheney made repeated trips to the C.I.A. and asked analysts pointed questions about their conclusions that Iraq had no direct ties to Al Qaeda. Both the Pentagon office and Mr. Cheney’s visits were roundly criticized, which is why officials said that policy makers were now being careful about circumventing the intelligence agencies to seek alternate analyses.

During his confirmation hearings in May, the director of the C.I.A., Gen. Michael V. Hayden, said he had been “uncomfortable” with the work of the Pentagon intelligence office.

The House Intelligence Committee report released Wednesday was written primarily by Republican staff members on the committee, and privately some Democrats criticized the report for using innuendo and unsubstantiated assertions to inflate the threat that Iran posed to the United States.

The report’s cover page shows a picture of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran speaking at a lectern that bears the message “The World Without Zionism.”

Page 3 of the report lists several public comments from Mr. Ahmadinejad, including his statement, “The annihilation of the Zionist regime will come. . . . Israel must be wiped off the map.”

Earlier this year, the intelligence agencies put new procedures in place to help avoid the type of analysis that was contained in the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate about Iraq and to prevent another “Curveball” — the code name of the Iraqi source who fed the United States faulty intelligence about Iraq’s biological weapons program. “I think that the intelligence community is being appropriately cautious,” said John E. McLaughlin, a former director of central intelligence.

“I think that what is going on is that people are holding themselves to a higher standard of evidence because of Iraq.”

Thomas Fingar, the deputy director of national intelligence for analysis, said analysts now had much more information about the sources of raw intelligence coming from the field.

“Analysts have to know more about the sources than was generally the case before the Iraq estimate,” Mr. Fingar said.

Analysts also are required to include in their reports more information about the chain of logic that led them to their conclusions about sensitive topics like Iran, North Korea and global terrorism — “showing your work,” as Mr. Fingar put it.

At the same time, Mr. Fingar dismissed the notion that intelligence analysts should try merely to connect random intelligence findings. “As a 40-year analyst, I’m offended by the notion of ‘connecting dots,’ ’’he said. “If you had enough monkeys you could do that.”

The consensus of the intelligence agencies is that Iran is still years away from building a nuclear weapon. Such an assessment angers some in Washington, who say that it ignores the prospect that Iran could be aided by current nuclear powers like North Korea. “When the intelligence community says Iran is 5 to 10 years away from a nuclear weapon, I ask: ‘If North Korea were to ship them a nuke tomorrow, how close would they be then?” said Newt Gingrich, the former Republican speaker of the House of Representatives.

“The intelligence community is dedicated to predicting the least dangerous world possible,” he said.

Some veterans of the intelligence battles that preceded the Iraq war see the debate as familiar and are critical of efforts to create hard links based on murky intelligence.

“It reflects a certain way of looking at the world — that all evil is traceable to the capitals of certain states,” said Paul R. Pillar, who until last October oversaw American intelligence assessments about the Middle East. “And that, in my view, is a very incorrect way of interpreting the security challenges we face.”

Don Corleone
08-24-2006, 22:46
Okay, since we haven't actually started sending any soldiers into harm's way over there yet, I want to go officially on record as saying tangling with Iran would be a mistake in my book. I understand the rationale behind it, and I would argue that if this was January 2003, it would make more sense to scrap with Iran then Iraq. But at this stage of the game, if we start any more trouble in the middle East oil fields, China's going to get involved. We've already driven the price of oil up to $73 a barrel... if we attacked Iran, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to go over $100.

If we really want to put an end to Iran's nuclear amibitions, we should bite the bullet and refuse to bank with any country that continues to bank with them. Give our unilateral sanctions some teeth.

Keba
08-25-2006, 00:40
Ugh, note to self: put car in garage with full tank, 'cause you won't be able to afford the gas soon.

You are headed for disaster if you attack Iran, plus I doubt the US will get much support. Nobody within theoretical nuclear weapons range will want to get involved, which pretty much leaves you with Guatemala and the other important coalition members closer to your territory.

Also, Iran is not Iraq, they don't have a pathetic military that will just roll over and die ... not to mention the US doesn't have the manpower, nor the people's support for this action.

Divinus Arma
08-25-2006, 04:02
Okay, since we haven't actually started sending any soldiers into harm's way over there yet, I want to go officially on record as saying tangling with Iran would be a mistake in my book.

So you want to cut and run before we even start?!


Actually, we would only bomb their nuke stuff. And maybe a city or three.

Strike For The South
08-25-2006, 04:03
I agree the nucleuar warheads are quite dusty and need commie islmaofacist bloddd

KafirChobee
08-25-2006, 05:42
Saw a GOP report the other day (classified .. of course), it reported that Iran could not create a true nuke for 8-80 years - without help.

Thing is, the Bushys' are making the same noise they made before invading Iraq. Wtf, theses guys have yet to be right about anything. They got the news calling 2001 a recession - we lost less points on the NYSX than we lose daily now, there was less inflation ($gas prices didn't rise significantly until 2003), and it was simply a myth created by those that own the media.

I do believe that Bush has no fear about attacking Iran. It seems he wants to be allowed to push the button to end civilization as most of us (not those making minimum wage or $100> a year) know it. After all he is the President elected by God.

Listen closely to his rationalizations about "protecting Texas (america)" and one gets the hint about what his governors (Chenee and Rumsfield) want. Bush can't wipe his butt without Rummy or Chenny saying OK. And, they both wanted a war in Iraq - and Bush wants to get to heaven.

Can i get a halleluau?? Can I get an Amen?

Or as Bush said, "We will do what ever it takes to make us safe." ..... even if it means blowing up the world.

Tribesman
08-25-2006, 07:19
So you want to cut and run before we even start?!

Way to go with the old gung-ho Divinus :no:
How about think before you start , then think again before you start , take a really really good look at what is likely to happen when you start , then think how the hell you are going to end after you start and seriously consider if starting is even remotely a sensible thing to do .
It would avoid a situation where you end up starting then cutting and running , or you end up starting but cannot cut and run but really need to do as you found that you made a mistake by starting in the first place .

Banquo's Ghost
08-25-2006, 08:57
Quite extraordinary, if at all true.


Many senior Bush administration officials have long been dismissive of the work of the intelligence agencies.

If that statement is remotely accurate, we are all in serious trouble. I can't stress often enough that the ultimate mainstay of fighting terrorism is intelligence, not military brawn. You cannot go around dismissing unfavourable data to your world view. The terrorists win immediately, because they can manipulate you. They know what you are going to do, but you have no idea what they are going to do because you won't listen.

In the context of this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5281052.stm), which reports a House Intelligence Committee report that sound intelligence on Iran's capability is very weak, the first article is even more worrying.

The article is well written, but I simply can't believe anyone in the administration is actually that stupid (maybe odd hangers-on of little consequence). If anyone thinks the US can get away with even targetted bombing of Iran, they should think carefully about the words 'Straits of Hormuz'.

Vladimir
08-25-2006, 13:25
Quite extraordinary, if at all true.



If that statement is remotely accurate, we are all in serious trouble. I can't stress often enough that the ultimate mainstay of fighting terrorism is intelligence, not military brawn. You cannot go around dismissing unfavourable data to your world view. The terrorists win immediately, because they can manipulate you. They know what you are going to do, but you have no idea what they are going to do because you won't listen.



It’s never been about dismissing information you don't agree with but the reliability of the information itself. One serious problem with CIA's intelligence gathering methods is that they're not looking. Look at the Joe Wilson case (husband of Valarie Plame, Plane, whatever). This man allowed his political ideology to affect his "investigations" in Africa.

Another problem with US intelligence in general is it's over reliance on technological surveillance. We all know that the US would rather launch satellites into space than deal with "undesirables" on the ground. That's one of the ways the Clinton administration handicapped our intelligence efforts. The executive order prohibiting us from using as informants, people suspected of human rights violations. In places like Iran and (pre-war) Iraq, those are the people with the information!

The motivations for and means by which the government collects information are slowly (as governments tend to) changing but they need a lot of work. Zarquawai was a result of that change; good HUMINT was used in tracking him down which was merged with technical surveillance for teh win!

Banquo's Ghost
08-25-2006, 13:38
It’s never been about dismissing information you don't agree with but the reliability of the information itself. One serious problem with CIA's intelligence gathering methods is that they're not looking. Look at the Joe Wilson case (husband of Valarie Plame, Plane, whatever). This man allowed his political ideology to affect his "investigations" in Africa.

Another problem with US intelligence in general is it's over reliance on technological surveillance. We all know that the US would rather launch satellites into space than deal with "undesirables" on the ground. That's one of the ways the Clinton administration handicapped our intelligence efforts. The executive order prohibiting us from using as informants, people suspected of human rights violations. In places like Iran and (pre-war) Iraq, those are the people with the information!

The motivations for and means by which the government collects information are slowly (as governments tend to) changing but they need a lot of work. Zarquawai was a result of that change; good HUMINT was used in tracking him down which was merged with technical surveillance for teh win!

I agree with much of your analysis (I don't know enough about the Wilson case to have a view) as long as intelligencers also apply objectivity to HUMINT. Chalabi's little song and dance was a very good example of people hearing exactly what they wanted.

I believe the House report detailing some deficiencies in the intelligence services made your points as well, not least in noting that the CIA could do with some more Farsi speakers.

Vladimir
08-25-2006, 14:04
OOPS! (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608240188aug24,1,1982129.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)

That's OK because maybe they'll just blow themselves up:


...In the case of the Tehran Research Reactor, a study by a top Iranian scientist suggests otherwise.

After a serious accident in 2001 at the U.S.-supplied reactor, the scientist concluded that poor quality control at the facility was a "chronic disease." Problems included carelessness, sloppy bookkeeping and a staff so poorly trained that workers had a weak understanding of "the most basic and simple principles of physics and mathematics," according to the study, presented at an international nuclear conference in 2004 in France.

yesdachi
08-25-2006, 14:56
I would like to see us (the US) become a little more independent over the next year or so from Middle East oil and then really bite down hard with diplomatic pressure, sanctions, aid elimination, etc. on them and everyone else in the region that we see as a threat and if that doesn’t work start blowing critical areas up before they are able to make the nukes and really become a threat. Additionally, I wouldn’t limit our attacks to large scale military actions but I would open the door to covert surgical attacks on key installations and leaving behind blankets covered with sars :wink:.

master of the puppets
08-25-2006, 15:02
everyones afraid of irans nukes, people should be afraid of OUR nukes, nuke a few of there military installations then invade the east and take there oil feilds. then claim it as U.S. property. then lets see them sto[p us.

drone
08-25-2006, 15:26
Also, Iran is not Iraq, they don't have a pathetic military that will just roll over and die ... not to mention the US doesn't have the manpower, nor the people's support for this action.
I still have plenty of faith in the US military's ability to stomp the Iranian forces. But an occupation would be a disaster, and the international outrage and consequences would pretty much wreck whatever the administration would be trying to accomplish. I even think Congress might rediscover it's backbone if anything starts going forward towards an invasion.

Maybe the administration is sick of nation-building, guerrilla fighting, and civil war prevention, and want a fresh start. "Sending our boys up against a conventional force would raise morale! And they are mostly Shia, so we wouldn't have to worry about sectarian violence. We could hook up with our Afghanistan troops. Plus they've got oil. Hell, this idea sounds better and better... :2thumbsup: "

yesdachi
08-25-2006, 15:44
everyones afraid of irans nukes, people should be afraid of OUR nukes, nuke a few of there military installations then invade the east and take there oil feilds. then claim it as U.S. property. then lets see them sto[p us.
People are definitely not as afraid of our capabilities as they were after we made a few flights over Japan a while back. I think our enemies know we have the resources but they think we lack the balls (I just checked, I still have mine but I am not so sure about much of the country). There may be advantages to a tactical strike against Iran in the form of showing that the barking dog (although covered with a liberal cancer) still can bite. Don’t know if it is worth the crap we would take from our “friends” and “allies” though.

Don Corleone
08-25-2006, 15:55
So you want to cut and run before we even start?!


Actually, we would only bomb their nuke stuff. And maybe a city or three.

Why stop with Iran, DA?

You know, Chavez has said some nasty things about us, we should invade Venezuela. Ditto for North Korea. God knows how many times France and Germany have ticked us off, so we should invade them as well. The Russians just blocked our efforts at starting the sanctions process, maybe we should invade them too. And China, for good measure, not to mention, Freeing Tibet might help pull in some Hollywood endorsements in the next election. The Spanish and the Italians backed out of their commitments in Iraq, so let's invade there too. Those damn Canucks wouldn't go in the first place so let's invade there too. And while we're at it, let's go ahead and clear out Mexico and anybody else between us and Chavez, would make our lives easier to have a US of NA. Some places that haven't been playing by our rules: Syria, Egypt, Libya (sure, they're playing nice now, but we OWE them), Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Yemen and Pakistan.

So, basically, with the help of Japan, Israel and Australia (though I doubt they'll go along with it) we're going to invade all of Central America, all of South America, every country in the Middle East, most of Western and Eastern Europe.

What's the matter, chicken? Gonna cut and run before we ever even start?

yesdachi
08-25-2006, 16:12
Ppffhhhh, like we couldn’t do it.

Seamus Fermanagh
08-25-2006, 16:37
Also, Iran is not Iraq, they don't have a pathetic military that will just roll over and die ... not to mention the US doesn't have the manpower, nor the people's support for this action.

Isn't this the same Iran that Saddam's Iraq fought to a standstill a couple of decades back?

Admittedly, it has been a while and their oil revenues may have allowed for a true increase in force capability, but I remain skeptical.

Dâriûsh
08-25-2006, 16:41
Hmm...


Yakety-Yan - Bomb Iran...?



No, that would be plagiarizing. :juggle2:

Keba
08-25-2006, 16:52
Isn't this the same Iran that Saddam's Iraq fought to a standstill a couple of decades back?

Admittedly, it has been a while and their oil revenues may have allowed for a true increase in force capability, but I remain skeptical.

That was a war fought with chemical and biological weaponry and a war in which the US was aiding Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

Now, since I doubt you'll be using chemical or biological weapons, the enemy is better entrenched and you don't have crazy psychopathic maniacs like Saddam fighting for you ... well, not so good.

yesdachi
08-25-2006, 16:55
Now, since I doubt you'll be using chemical or biological weapons, the enemy is better entrenched and you don't have crazy psychopathic maniacs like Saddam fighting for you ... well, not so good.
But we have a crazy psychopathic maniac named George W fighting for us. ~D

Seamus Fermanagh
08-25-2006, 16:58
That was a war fought with chemical and biological weaponry and a war in which the US was aiding Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

Yep, some aid to Hussein, at least at first. But don't forget, we also didn't put up much squawk about Israel or France selling parts etc. to Iran to let them keep some of their planes flying and so on. You could make a fair argument that we were playing both sides against one another in that one.


Now, since I doubt you'll be using chemical or biological weapons, the enemy is better entrenched and you don't have crazy psychopathic maniacs like Saddam fighting for you ... well, not so good.

Don't get me wrong, I do not doubt their will or the difficulty of the terrain, but in a conventional conflict nobody exceeds the USA in our ability to locate and destroy an opponent with minimal casualties.

Occupations/Guerilla suppressions, as I have said before, don't have any opportunities for us to use the "force multipliers" we love so much. Basically, I think we could smash Iran, but would have a VERY difficult time keeping it if we tried.

The Stranger
08-25-2006, 17:52
iraq is qoing to end in an civil war.

macsen rufus
08-25-2006, 17:59
nobody exceeds the USA in our ability to locate and destroy an opponent with minimal casualties.


you don't do too bad on your allies as well. Go Blue on Blue World Champions!

Tribesman
08-25-2006, 18:34
Isn't this the same Iran that Saddam's Iraq fought to a standstill a couple of decades back?

Try the other way round Seamus, it was Iraq that invaded and despite the military superiority , the use of Chenical weapons and massive financing from around the world it got fought to a standstill by Iran .

Hepcat
08-26-2006, 01:08
It shows that if Iran is invaded they will not be quite so easy.

rotorgun
08-26-2006, 01:55
Good article Lemur, and it just goes to show how the "senior Bush Administration Officials" (read Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, etc.) are just manipulating the intelligence agencies for several reasons.

1) It sends the message to the people running them "either provide us with what we want to have, or else...."

2) It keeps the population in a state of anxiety to make sauch claims publicly and make it appear as though they are "protecting" them from the "Axis of Evil"

3) It gives them a group of people to blame when their plans go awry.

4) If they are in the least bit correct, and the intelligence services fail to follow suit, then they can also say "we told you so!" This pressures the director of the CIA to "put up or shut up" over this matter.

This is the classic Dick Cheney tactic that so infuriates me. What I hate most, is that he really believes that average Americans cannot see through his actions, that we are too stupid to fathom it. He will have much to answer for on judgement day.

Regards,

Geezer57
08-26-2006, 04:53
I really don't think we have too much to worry about from Iran's nuclear capability - as soon as it comes fully on-line, an Israeli nuke(s) will land squarely on top of it, putting it out of commision for a few decades. Iran has announced on innumerable occasions it intends to destroy Israel - Israel has to take them seriously.

In the unlikely event that an invasion by US forces becomes necessary, I seriously doubt we would attempt to conquer/hold the territory. Rapid deep raids, massive infrastructure destruction (especially nuke-related), followed by a complete withdrawal - that's what I feel would happen. Iran's mullahs are already hugely unpopular there - provide the right trigger, they'll be overthrown from within. The only question: is what comes out of the upheaval going to be any better for us?

Samurai Waki
08-26-2006, 08:06
Here's a smashing idea, let Iran build a couple of nukes, let them waste years and years worth of resources to produce them. Let them get into the saber rattling game with Israel, and then see nothing happen, short of the Islamofascist regime crumbling. Sound Familiar? Oh, and I'm pretty sure even the Mullahs aren't too keen on the idea of nuclear winter.
I'm thinking that pretty much as long as the West keeps sticking it's nose in middle east affairs, theres a good chance that these countries will always take an Islam is 1337 stance, because well, short of playing on people's religious ideals, these guys don't have much going for them. Iran has a legitimate case in wanting to protect and expand her area of influence, Obviously, Iran doesn't have much room to do so militarily, because of major malefactors in their designs like Israel, Pakistan, India, Russia, China, and the US all having their own designs in Middle East Policies. I think Iran feels that if something major is going to happen in their neck of the woods they want to be a part of it. Everyone in the US seems to feel that if Iran has nuke's they'll aim them at our major cities, which of course is a farce, until the Russians and the Chinese feel obliged to lend them their technology (which BTW both countries won't, because that means their major cities will also be in range of sed missiles).
I have a better Idea that the UN, US, and Cohorts could be working towards, instead of limiting the nuclear capabilities of Iran. How about an Embargo on Uranium and Plutonium? Or, hey, a joint scientific effort in creating an effective SDI Curtain? and High Powered Satellites that could detect the movement and transfer of radioactive materials? so that we could effectively monitor all possible smuggling operations, I mean, the technology is there, it wouldn't take much to impliment it, aside from time and money. Oh wait... thats insane of me to think that modern economics have room for time or a little extra spenditure.