View Full Version : A happy, cynical thought
Doug-Thompson
08-24-2006, 23:03
The game boasts kill moves and other individual motions, along with individualized units.
That would look silly at the fast battle speeds of Rome Total War, wouldn't it?
Therefore, I predict that the accelerated unit speeds and quick fights of R:TW will be toned down to allow us all to marvel at the handiwork.:2thumbsup:
Hey, whatever works. I don't really care what excuse they use to slow down battles speeds, just as long as they do! :thumbsup:
L'Impresario
08-24-2006, 23:11
Watch the latest Pavia battle video. Concetrate on the ultra fast demise of the French knights on the german pikes. Then look at the battle speed box. It says x10, right?
Here's for some hope if it's indeed x10 (although if it really was a x10, I think we'd be only able to see flashes of coloured light moving across the battlefield - remember that battle in MTW could be accelerated 100%, and it still felt very fast).
Yes, hopefully the x10 means the video was sped up to make it a shorter more action packed. if you can have x10 then surely you can have x0, right? Right? *Hopes*
Yes, that is a happy thought. In fact it's one of my main beefs about the game speed in RTW - it is so fast, you can't enjoy the visuals. RTR and EB allow you to savour the experience much more. If I do a PBM in vanilla RTW, it's hard to write a characterful after action report - events happen so quickly, I often don't manage to take any good screenshots. With the realism mods, you can zoom in and watch your men lining up that flank charge, pause as it crashes home, switch to the next important conflict etc.
On the other hand, I remember Dawn of War had fancy killing moves, very good graphics and excellent atmosphere but also flew by too fast to really enjoy them. Ditto Battle for Middle Earth (which could have rivalled RTW if only there was a way to cut the speed by half).
http://static.4players.de/premium/Screenshots/38/ba/1686160-medium.jpg
Read the speech bubble at the top. Maybe this sheds some light on the unit speed? The 10x video was ovbiously sped up so maybe the default speed will be of the MTW standard we have come to love?
It seems to me that x10 is the normal speed since all the images show that setting and the advisor is telling the player that he can speed up the game to move troops into position faster. Maybe the settings are now x5, x10, x20 and x30. I can't see them being +1 steps. A half normal speed setting would be great, although it alone doesn't address the walk/run speed ratios or combat time to movement speed ratio.
poo_for_brains
08-25-2006, 01:45
If x10 battle speed is watchable, I can amuse myself by watching my enemy´s demise in slow motion - so I´m happy.
Cheers for the screenshot Dan. o6, what site is it from? I haven't seen it before.
Myrddraal
08-25-2006, 09:50
That's a very useful screen.
It seems to me that x10 is the normal speed since all the images show that setting and the advisor is telling the player that he can speed up the game to move troops into position faster. Maybe the settings are now x5, x10, x20 and x30. I can't see them being +1 steps. A half normal speed setting would be great, although it alone doesn't address the walk/run speed ratios or combat time to movement speed ratio.
It solves half the problem - the overall average speed being too high. We have yet to see the ratios of movement in MTW2
Duke John
08-25-2006, 10:33
It looks like 1.0 to me (faint, but I see a dot):
http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=7559&pic=10
Which makes sense as you want to speed up from by steps of 0.1, 0.2 or 0.5 and not from 1.0 to 2.0 which would be too large a step.
And come on, who seriously thought that the video showed the cavalry moving 10 (ten!) times faster as normal? They would be moving at 200 or 300 km/h!
Therefore, I predict that the accelerated unit speeds and quick fights of R:TW will be toned down to allow us all to marvel at the handiwork.
In all the videos that I noticed that the player would order an unit to do something, then zoom in to look at the detail for a few moments and when he zooms back out again entire units are gone.
Happy thoughts! :beam:
It looks like 1.0 to me (faint, but I see a dot):
http://www.tothegame.com/sshotfeat.asp?screen=7559&pic=10
Which makes sense as you want to speed up from by steps of 0.1, 0.2 or 0.5 and not from 1.0 to 2.0 which would be too large a step.
And come on, who seriously thought that the video showed the cavalry moving 10 (ten!) times faster as normal? They would be moving at 200 or 300 km/h!
In all the videos that I noticed that the player would order an unit to do something, then zoom in to look at the detail for a few moments and when he zooms back out again entire units are gone.
Happy thoughts! :beam:
Hmm I think it's x10 as I've seen another screenshot at higher resolution and it is readable.
Hopefully like Puzz3D said, if x10 is the default, maybe there will be lower speeds. All we can do if hope :laugh4: :sweatdrop:
Duke John
08-25-2006, 11:28
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7074/mtw2speedyf2.jpg
Lord Adherbal
08-25-2006, 12:03
it seems that the Duke is right. There goes our happy thought ~:P
Perhaps a dumb question, but does the 'x10' in the screenshot even refer to speed? I thought perhaps it could be referring to the level of zoom, as its placed right next to the minimap?
L'Impresario
08-25-2006, 12:11
I'll be damned. I was thinking that it could be a decimal number there, but I was pushing the thought in the back of my head.
It only took a high res pic to dispel any hopes regarding speed:P
Duke John
08-25-2006, 12:13
I thought perhaps it could be referring to the level of zoom, as its placed right next to the minimap?
Then why the pause button beneath it? Could we pause the map perhaps? :tongue2:
Quote:
I thought perhaps it could be referring to the level of zoom, as its placed right next to the minimap?
Then why the pause button beneath it? Could we pause the map perhaps?
Mmmh, I was hoping against hope that the pause button would be grouped horizontally with the +/- buttons on its left, leaving those above it for zooming.... but I guess you're right.
I do continue having problems interpreting this then.... I mean, would default speed really be at x10? That doesn't sound very logical. But if not, would they really make videos at 10 times the default speed? What am I missing? Getting very confused here...... ~:confused:
Duke John
08-25-2006, 12:25
That is because it's 1.0 and not 10.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1225206&postcount=10
Yeah but how about this post by Dan.o6:
Hmm I think it's x10 as I've seen another screenshot at higher resolution and it is readable.
Duke John
08-25-2006, 12:29
Hmm, parcelt, perhaps you should consider reading this thread entirely, otherwise people will start accusing me of double posting. :wink:
As Duke John points out, there is clearly a decimal point there making it x1.0. I think it is a speed adjustment because zooming is done by moving the camera. I was thinking that 0.1 steps would be too small if you had to press the + or - button each time you wanted to take a step as you do in RTW. However, if the speed increments continuously as you hold down the button, then 0.1 steps would be feasible. This would be more like a speed slider with the possiblility of going slower than x1.0, but with descrete steps. I think the descrete steps are there so that normal speed has a clearly defined setting in a system where normal speed is not the lowest setting, and so you can change the speed in multiplayer. In RTW, you can play at increased speed if everyone in the game selects the same speed setting.
Aah, now I got it. My bad, thanks for pointing it out. ~:cheers:
L'Impresario
08-25-2006, 13:57
I think the descrete steps are there so that normal speed has a clearly defined setting in a system where normal speed is not the lowest setting, and so you can change the speed in multiplayer.
I had completely forgotten about the fact that you could play at higher speeds on RTW MP. If there are <x1.0 speeds (which seems likely), then this is another hope round heh
(ofcourse this wouldn't fix relative speeds, but anyway)
x-dANGEr
08-25-2006, 15:26
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7074/mtw2speedyf2.jpg
I can see no point..
Doug-Thompson
08-25-2006, 15:29
Re: Duke John's 1.0
I hate facts. :scastle:
Lord Adherbal
08-25-2006, 15:32
I can see no point..
for all the non believers, a bit of constrast increasing.
https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4965/decimales4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Adherbal']for all the non believers, a bit of constrast increasing.
I certainly hope that the "new" market isn't confused by decimal values or a time acceleration of less than 1. Then again the final speed settings might be x1.0, x2.0, x3.0 just like the 1, 2, 3 of RTW/BI.
The Jackson 5 - "ABC"
A B C
It's easy as, 1 2 3
As simple as, do re mi
A B C, 1 2 3
Baby, you and me girl
A B C
It's easy as, 1 2 3
As simple as, do re mi
A B C, 1 2 3
Baby, you and me girl
Hopefully you can go lower than 1.0
Lord Adherbal
08-25-2006, 16:20
I don't share the optimism of some that there will be speeds lower then 1.0. I'm also not sure that would actualy solve the fast paced gameplay in a proper manner. If you could run RTW at 0.5x would it suddenly become a good game (as in: simular to S/MTW gameplay)?
Myrddraal
08-25-2006, 16:24
If you could run RTW at 0.5x would it suddenly become a good game (as in: simular to S/MTW gameplay)?
Well I think it would be a significant improvement. It wouldn't solve all problems in one fell swoop, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Is the "-" greyed out when it's set to 1.0?
L'Impresario
08-25-2006, 16:27
It'll also be an acknowledgement that some people do want to play the game in slower settings (thus greater optimism when the expansion is about to come out heh).
Lord Adherbal
08-25-2006, 16:27
dont forgot that also makes units respond to orders twice as slow, archers reload twice as long, arrows fly at half speed etc etc. It would make micromanagement easier, but the gameplay stays identical.
Myrddraal
08-25-2006, 16:37
Like I said:
It solves half the problem - the overall average speed being too high. We have yet to see the ratios of movement in MTW2
Adherbal']I don't share the optimism of some that there will be speeds lower then 1.0. I'm also not sure that would actualy solve the fast paced gameplay in a proper manner. If you could run RTW at 0.5x would it suddenly become a good game (as in: simular to S/MTW gameplay)?
It's actually not the right way to do it since the RTW/BI walk speeds are ok and the same as STW/MTW. There are quite a few factors that affect the battlefield gameplay, and to me original STW had the various factors adjusted to work together quite well. In every iteration of the game since then, these factors have become less well adjusted. Increased complexity of the game is one reason, but some influence that is less interested in optimal balancing of the battle factors and less interested in simulation and historical accuracy has been gaining strength over the years since that first game. This new gameplay concept can even sustain the discarding of advanced features that were in the original battle engine, and we can see things being done on the strategic side that have an adverse effect on the tactical battles (loss of seasons, randomized weather effects, auto-resolve bias).
I don't think it's possible to shift the gameplay back to the original concept because the forces working against that are to strong now. We're going to see more units, more factions and more bizarre and randomized gameplay because realism, logic and historical accuracy are being minimized in favor of a subjective concept of what consitutes "fun". The game is so complex now and shrouded in such secrecy that it takes months for players figure out if a feature is working properly, and if someone finds something that's deficient there is now an issue of whether it's important because most players won't notice it. I would argue that even if a player doesn't notice a deficiency, his/her playing experience would be enhanced if the deficiency is corrected.
As far as I'm concerned, the hiring of the community player is mostly a ploy designed to counter the vocal community who criticize the shift in the gameplay, and not a sincere attempt to return to a gameplay where balancing the battle factors is important.
Duke John
08-25-2006, 18:54
Gamespeed less than 1.0 might look even more unrealistic than the hypercharged (allow me a bit of drama) units of R:TW. As Adherbal said, everything will be slower and that will mean slow-motion and I will halve expect to hear loooow and sslloooww voice commands. Nah, that is not the fix which will make me buy M2:TW.
Faenaris
08-25-2006, 19:06
Sorry to go off-topic here, but has anyone seen something else in that screenshot?
It appears to me that the M2TW tutorial will be identical to the RTW one. You see a big army, you control a few units yourself and you have an enemy. Looks like the RTW tutorial. :)
Lord Adherbal
08-25-2006, 19:14
well thats one RTW feature that didn't necessarily need changing IMO :P
Gamespeed less than 1.0 might look even more unrealistic than the hypercharged (allow me a bit of drama) units of R:TW. As Adherbal said, everything will be slower and that will mean slow-motion and I will halve expect to hear loooow and sslloooww voice commands. Nah, that is not the fix which will make me buy M2:TW.
slowing down the game is not going to be the same as slowing down the battles
as I understood it was mainly kill rates being too high which meant the 'battle line' had hardly formed before the battle was over and there was little time for tactics
ideally you want units reponding and moving at normal speed but the battle line having time to form and even move back and forth depending on individual unit strengths and weakness
so slower kill rates not slower game speed - is my understanding
Lord Adherbal
08-28-2006, 11:26
yes, slower game speed would allow you do give more individual orders to your units instead of selecting the whole lot and clicking a single target (which actualy is a very effective strategy in RTW, and more importantly, units will automatically pick different targets then the one you picked - how user friendly is that!). But it changes nothing else.
Gamespeed less than 1.0 might look even more unrealistic than the hypercharged (allow me a bit of drama) units of R:TW. As Adherbal said, everything will be slower and that will mean slow-motion and I will halve expect to hear loooow and sslloooww voice commands. Nah, that is not the fix which will make me buy M2:TW.
All games I have played slowing down the game did not change the sound one bit. So at least the sound will be safe
HIGH KILL RATES SELL
Well since a lot of people use Blizzard as a reference alot, I'll use them as an example.
The good old warcraft II days. I use to play on battlenet quite a bit and there were 9(?) speeds you could play at. slowest, slower, evenslower, slow, normal, fast, faster, even faster and fastest. (I believe that is the right speeds). The ladder speed was always at fast. For non ladder games probably over 95 percent always wanted to play the game at fastest. Start a game at a slower speed than fastest and you'll get millions of complaints. People complained about the ladder speed setting. So all future releases had a high kill speed setting as default.
How I learned to play was at slower speed settings and eventually cranked the speed up against the comps. Funny for a few weeks I'd host games at fast, the 3rd highest games and get tons of complaints or leavers. There were an occasional few that said they wanted a rematch on fastest and I'd say about 80 percent of the time they'd get beat worse because it was even harder for them to manage the speed. Anyways after the results most of them said the game was too boring even though they stand a better chance.
Even my wife playing the solo campaign would play it at the fastest and have to restart it 5 times. I told her that the game would be much more managable if the speed was turned down a few notches. She tried it for a few minutes and said the game becomes too boring then. I quietly laughed all the times I saw her restart a scenario in a campaign.
Everyone has a different cutoff at what speed it becomes boring and undesirable, but from my own personal experience most everyone wants fast pace action. Especially the young crowd.
Starcraft came along and had a very fast pace, although I'm not too experienced with it online and how the auidiences reaction to its speed was. But from my understanding had the fastest rate out of all of them and warcraft III was toned down a bit from starcraft but still had fast pace action.
The big difference is that a speed option is programmed into thier games. Why they put that option in there is beyond me since there games cater to the online crowd where there is only one speed for ladder play and over 95 percent of the players play it at the fastest speed setting for non-ladder games.
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