View Full Version : Greek Factions....
The Spartan (Returns)
08-25-2006, 23:12
now im not a great guy on greek history but, shouldnt there be a Spartan City State faction and an Athenian City State Faction? i never knew that the Greeks became a league...
btw please (if you do) do this after 0.8 we have been waiting long.
One, this would require a faction slot that isn't available. Two, at the start of the game, the cities were in a league/alliance/thing, though sparta was in it for only a short time.
The Spartan (Returns)
08-25-2006, 23:49
hm... what about taking out Numidia? (or the name it was called)
then it would be nice if this is true Sparta and Athens should start in a alliance
VandalCarthage
08-26-2006, 00:02
We've already replaced Numidia with Bactria.
The Spartan (Returns)
08-26-2006, 00:22
doh!! i forget...
hm... what about taking out Numidia? (or the name it was called)
then it would be nice if this is true Sparta and Athens should start in a alliance
Neither Sparta nor Athens was the power they were during the Peloponesian war. They need to be united to stand a chance of breaking the Makedonians. It seems a bit of a waste to spend two factions slots on two not-very-powerful city states that aren't going to accomplish anything other than providing a temporary speedbump to Makedon, and there are far more worthy candidates to fill those slots. In the end the EB team seems to have dediced on a compromise: they have a Greek faction, one that actually stands a chance of expanding and is based on a historical alliance, but unlike in history the alliance cannot be disbanded.
The Spartan (Returns)
08-26-2006, 00:26
well im curious.
what happend to the Spartan and Athenian city states?
Teleklos Archelaou
08-26-2006, 00:44
Go to the EB website and you can learn a lot about the history of the faction we represent. There is an introduction to each faction, a history of each faction, and then a summary of their units. There's a lot of information there! :grin:
Even as it stands, the KH very rarely expand to have an empire. The best they can usually do is to take southern greece and then grab a few other coastal provinces here and there. There are always exceptions, but mostly they collapse like they did in reality.
CountArach
08-26-2006, 12:17
I can't wait for 0.8. Naval Invasion AI! Even after being just reduced to Rhodes (As always happens in my Campaigns pretty much), they might still become a power by invading a coast somewhere. They might even take over Crete (Again it never happens).
they seem to collapse within the first few turns pretty regularly--in most campaigns Byzantion puts up a better fight than the whole KH (there are pleasant exceptions, of course), but that should be helped by making the maks a little more vulnerable in their start position, right?
Krusader
08-27-2006, 14:22
they seem to collapse within the first few turns pretty regularly--in most campaigns Byzantion puts up a better fight than the whole KH (there are pleasant exceptions, of course), but that should be helped by making the maks a little more vulnerable in their start position, right?
History first ~;)
Although the Maks will be a bit more vulnerable in 0.8 (or there are plans for it), as Macedonia was particularly vulnerable towards Epeiros at this time.
And yeah, think we would have rather gone for Aetolian League or Pergamon instead of splitting Athens & Sparta into a faction each, as the two former did a lot more on the political scene.
NeoSpartan
08-27-2006, 18:28
OK I have a question?
Are the Greek Units STILL going to be speaking in Latin? Or are u guys still working on changing that?
OK I have a question?
Are the Greek Units STILL going to be speaking in Latin? Or are u guys still working on changing that?
Please.. we're professionals.
So, yes. That was just a culture problem in 1.2 but seeing as we can switch and swap factions around 7 cultures we won't have that problem at all.
Foot
The Spartan (Returns)
08-27-2006, 19:56
hm.
i think we can fix it now.
go to descr_sm_factions.txt (in the Eb data folder)
it will still show vanila factions so choose which vanila faction the Romani replaced.
once your there, where it says culture, change it to Roman.
that should work.
NeoSpartan
08-28-2006, 03:03
hm.
i think we can fix it now.
go to descr_sm_factions.txt (in the Eb data folder)
it will still show vanila factions so choose which vanila faction the Romani replaced.
once your there, where it says culture, change it to Roman.
that should work.
oh no I aint messing with them codes..... I'll just wait for 0.8
Ypoknons
08-28-2006, 08:27
The former Greek faction is now made up of Athens, Sparta, and Rhodes. This selection has been chosen to represent the alliance formed by several poleis of Hellas prior to the outbreak of the Chremonidean War (c.266-260). The war is named after Chremonides, the Athenian statesman who formed the alliance in an effort to counter the threat of Makedonian hegemony.
The alliance of these three city states brings together political entities that were not entirely cooperative (to put it mildly) during this time period, but they were not openly hostile to each other and they did agree very shortly after the opening of the game to ally themselves alongside the Ptolemaioi to fight the Makedonians....
... . The term 'Alliance of the Hellenes' or 'Koinon Hellenon' will represent this alliance better in the long run than a temporary 'Chremodian Alliance' would.
This is the reasoning behind the Koinon Hellenon per here (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_koinon-hellenon_units.html).
hm.
i think we can fix it now.
go to descr_sm_factions.txt (in the Eb data folder)
it will still show vanila factions so choose which vanila faction the Romani replaced.
once your there, where it says culture, change it to Roman.
that should work.
That's all you have to do?
The Spartan (Returns)
09-02-2006, 01:13
oh yeah, try it please.
i dont have EB installed right now.
Cheexsta
09-02-2006, 01:24
The "culture" line in RTW1.2 descr_sm_factions.txt is nonexistant; it only appears with the 1.5 and 1.6 patches. I'm pretty sure it would have been changed by the team if it was there.
The Spartan (Returns)
09-02-2006, 01:27
yeah thats what i was fearing.
Mithradates
09-02-2006, 10:46
I was wondering if the speeches were ever going to get changed although impossible to understand it would be nice to hear a greek speech.
Amur_Tiger
09-02-2006, 15:02
There was a question a while back about what happened to Sparta and Athens after their power leading up to the Peloponnesian wars and given that it's or particular interest to me I felt I should comment. Essentially what happened to them was each other. Sparta seeing the rise of Athens in the face of their own stagnation chose to bring together other similarily worried city-states to destroy Athens without any real plan as to how they'd do this, as such they failed their mighty phalanx being rather ineffective against Athen's walls. Athens on the other hand was also at a similar loss as to how it might use it's supirior naval forces to undo Sparta. So for the earlier part of the war nothing of consequence actually happened except for huge expenses incurred on both sides and the plague in Athens while the gates were shut to the Spartans. However the repeated arrival year after year of the Spartan forces to deny Athenian access to their surrounding lands did start to wear Athens down in that it made them less patient and more bold. One battle that was close to ending it early was one against Thebes where the Athenians had managed to seperate them from their Spartan allies and bring them into battle something which ended in defeat for Athens but one of little consequence as they still had the all important walls and fleet. Later though Athens would go further afield in their search to weaken Sparta and eventually would find their way to Syracus and their disaster, if there was one foe that could be said to have tipped things in favor of Sparta it was Syracus, who had originally been more of a bystander then anything but was brought into the war by Athenian agression in the form of an invasion force which failed utterly bringing disaster to the army and fleet. Since this was the first real success had against the Athenian fleet in some time it was now that the Persians became interested and started to pour money into funding Spartan naval ambitions which being of Spartan origin naturally had a very poor start. The Athenian fleet would face both disaster and a number of miraculous victories where they should have lost but managed to pull though but eventually things fell apart for Athens and their fleet was finally destroyed. Sparta won... sorta. You see the problem was Sparta was still just as much a backwards and stagnant society as before and no victory would change that, indeed Persian gold won the war for them, not their own skill at arms. Furthermore the thing about Athens that made it so scary for the Spartans was what saved it from razing and in the end managed to undermine the Spartans even more was the sheer magnificance of the city and the culture within, even through war it had remained the cultural capital of greece. The power of Athens was broken, and Sparta continued it's decline there was a power vaccum... which is where Phillip of Macadon steps in and the rest they say is history.
Nice post, if a little hard to read.
I should start learning more about ancient Greek history, it looks just as interesting as Roman history is.
Krusader
09-02-2006, 22:47
True. But I would just point out that after the Peleponnesian War Sparta was the dominant power in Greece, until Epaminondas, a Theban general defeated them at Leuctra in 371 BC. Thebes then became the dominant power, which Athens & Sparta allied against. The intermittent warfare between the city-states in the end weakened them and thus Phillip II and Macedon came on the scene.
Amur_Tiger
09-03-2006, 01:35
Yeah sorry about that I was just typing away more or less without attention to formatting.
To Krusader I would say this, while certainly Sparta held more sway then any of the other city states after the war it was still nothing like the presence Athens had had on the scene when it was on top, at that point I think there was some understanding that Sparta didn't really have the power to enforce any strict control over Hellas.
What I also find interesting is that in the end the same thing happened with Macedonian power, when Alexander died the empire shattered and exhausted itself trying to fight the other parts. While certainly they remained powerful foes I think that by the time the Romans started to come into their part of the world they were so exhausted with the constant off and on fighting between the successor empires and the city states that it was more or less of an easy ride for the Romans.
-Praetor-
09-03-2006, 02:17
While certainly they remained powerful foes I think that by the time the Romans started to come into their part of the world they were so exhausted with the constant off and on fighting between the successor empires and the city states that it was more or less of an easy ride for the Romans.
That much is true, since the romans had a much harder time conquering the barbarian tribes in Iberia, Gaul and Britannia (and Germania for the brief period that was under roman control) than fighting the successor states in the east and in Egypt.
Should they had stood together, there may have never been Islam. :juggle2:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-03-2006, 22:33
That much is true, since the romans had a much harder time conquering the barbarian tribes in Iberia, Gaul and Britannia (and Germania for the brief period that was under roman control) than fighting the successor states in the east and in Egypt.
Should they had stood together, there may have never been Islam. :juggle2:
Well actually you're early. Had Rome stayed together they might have defeated Islam. Its a shame Demetrius' decendants could never hold a large Empire together, his was the most stable dynasty.
Hey... Imagine if it had been the Greeks instead of the Romans that forged the empire the Romans eventually did... And had held onto it... Then there might not be christianity OR Islam! My god, the world would be perfect.
The Spartan (Returns)
09-04-2006, 16:09
no i dont think so.
St. Peter influenced Greeks and many turned to Christianity. (he spoke Greek himself. i think he is Greek)
With the (I can't be bothed the spell it) the Greek Alliance I think that if they must be one faction put one of the Greek Cities on the verge of rebellion e.g. Sparta. Then it seperates and becomes part of the (again I can't be bothered to spell it) Rebels henceforth rebresenting the end of the allience.
eadingas
09-04-2006, 16:16
Christianity would still exist, and it would be even more Aristotelian and Hellenistic than it is now - if that's even possible ;)
NeoSpartan
09-04-2006, 20:21
Uhm I am seeing a lot of history being throw out here, which is a good thing. But I am also seeing a LOT of unfounded speculation also being throw out.
I would suggest u guys check this link out about Greek History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_greece#The_Peloponnesian_War
It has good basic info in it.
If you want u can keep on reading more history in Wikipedia. (its preatty good)
Just one thing I would like to point out thought.
-KH (Greek Alliance) called on the Romans into Greece to "Free Greece" from Macedonian intervention. The only citi-state that oppesed Rome was Corinth. (and it was defeated).
-But later, KH, called on the king of the Seluinids (sp) to "Free them" from Roman intervention. The Romans beat the Seluinid Army several times, and its fleet too (which was lead by Hinnabal [who wasn't an Admiral he was a General!] [[dumb move on the part of the Seluinids]]). Then a Peace Treaty was made between Rome and the Seluinids.
NOW about Islam: Islam started its expaction around the year 600AD well after the Western Roman Empire was gone. The 1st Impire Arab Muslims beat was the Sassanid (sp) empire which ruled much of the middle east and present day Iran. Then Muslim (religios) expaction took them through all of North Africa to Spain, all of the middle east and also to India. This vast land was ruled for a short time by a single Caliphate, but later it broke intp Several Muslims factions.
Neospartan, its probably not best to equate the Hellenic Alliance represented by the KH (the Chremonidean Alliance, really) with the later actions of the Achaean and Aitolian Leagues. Polybios is a good source for the history of the Roman conquest of Greece (he participated in a number of the events he describes), though there are several important chunks which have been lost.
And as far as counterfactuals, if the Eastern Romans had not crushed the Sassanians in the years before the Arab exapansion, the Sassanians would almost surely have crushed any Arab invasion, if such a thing would even have been possible. Their style of warfare would have been much better suited to the job. However, they were lying in ruins and and mired in political disarray when the Arab armies arrived. Sans Mohammed, the Arab tribes would still almost certainly have invaded the levant and mesopotamia, only in a much less unified state.
iberus_generalis
09-06-2006, 01:16
i came across a model from the prodecers of Troy total war...a new hoplite, thought about it, and perceived it would be really awesome if the greeks had a Early/Principe Countering unit, so i thought this one could be it...so i invented the name Storm Hoplit, and traduced it to greek, and voila the Trikymia Hoplitai were born and added it to my EB 0.74 install. i don't have any historical background on this one, but through rational thinking, and a bit of imagination i got this done...
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/86/0097mx5.jpg
i've tweaked them so they can be the perfect oposing forces of roman hastati's and Principes, fighting like early Prinicipes, and having an alternate mellee atack to fight as hastati..., iknow..it's not a Spartan unit, but i guess for all the Epeirotes, and rebels from Magna Greece, would be a welcome addition...plus it gives a bit more variety to rebels, for all of us fighting hellenic rebels...
this guys if underestimated can easily kick roman principes ass....one on one with 3 stormies and 3 principes, principes got wiped out and the stormies didn't got halfed do to casualties...maybe i overpowered then a bit...nah!!!!..i think of them a bit more as Greek Gaesatae...a force not to be underestimated...
https://img174.imageshack.us/img174/4859/0107gp8.jpg
now the romans cannot just steamroll the greek cities in south italy, they need to get smart, as they are like mirrors to principes being able to throw the spears they carry at enemies, before atacking with swords...
a new updated pic...
https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7711/0108sl3.jpg
after 3 principes units got decimated by me...
any feedback is welcome, so that i can get this better, and as soon as i have permition maybe release as an add on...i don't like the textures, so as soon as i can, and feel like it, i'll do a little reskin...
PS don't mind the spell errors in the description of the unit, cuz im way past bed time...need to sleep...=)
CountArach
09-06-2006, 10:25
Great! Those models are great. I don't have any Historical Experience with the Greeks.
iberus_generalis
09-06-2006, 11:17
this units is rocking my campaign..got to restart my romanii, i want to face this guys at the beggining of my campaign...=) now the greek stand a chance agains roman tactics...i played around with them, and they caused me quite a few casualties..=) i didn't felt battles against the greek so dificult since Mundus Magna...=)
With the few casualties you took I’d say they are over powered. Not that it matters if your going up against them, you seem to revel in the challenge. They may be gods of war on VH though. Shame they have the old Corinth helms, it would just annoy me seeing such things used in EBs era.
iberus_generalis
09-06-2006, 16:13
i don't think they are overpowered now...i easily rout them playing as roman...they won having so few casualties in the screens cuz i was controling them, and outflanked the romans with one of them......i will try to get a screen of the strat card of the current version...
Edit...here it is...
https://img430.imageshack.us/img430/7312/0128uf4.jpg
as you can see i tried to balance them as much as possible, but the trikmia has more defence, and unlike ohter hoplites launchs their spears at enemies, and is way more expensive to train and keep...maybe i'll tweak that a bit..for just one point of diference in armor is wa to much money...
Well they do have good stamina despite looking pretty heavy. It implies elite status in my mind. Looking at the armour different and then at the models it doesn't look right to me. The Greek guy is blatantly heavier. Maybe rise armour and lower defence skill? Or maybe raise armour and lower the attack stat to compensate? It’s hard to tell looking at just these stats. How does their moral compare?
Edit: Just noticed, the Greek version has more men in it.
iberus_generalis
09-06-2006, 17:37
its slightly lower...the principes, if i do remember correctly is 14, and this guys have 12
and this skin isn't final, this is the original, i plan on redoing it, in matter of fact im reskining it right now...in the end, the body armor will be leather/with scales....the shield is already redone...
here it is the same unit after a reskining session...it looks quite a bit diferent
https://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9815/0162mq7.jpg
https://img457.imageshack.us/img457/4465/0157uu1.jpg
amazing what a simple reskin can do for a unit....
Would like to ask though, what did you set as lethality and swing speed for this unit?
Teleklos Archelaou
09-07-2006, 15:46
I'll mention (though it doesn't appear to have been done here to EB units) that EB does not allow any other released mod to alter its skins - if they ask to use them and credit the artists and EB in general, then EB almost always says yes. But no alterations in the unit can occur. Entirely new skins on an EB model are fine though. I don't the policies of other mods like Troy, but if you want to alter a unit and make it available, you should probably ask the modders who made it.
iberus_generalis
09-07-2006, 15:50
it's exactly like the early prinicipes....everything is equal except for the damage(that is now a little lower, and the armor wich is 2 points higher...in later test runs they are matched, but of course if i use tactics against the AI, the Romans get their asses kicked...the same happens to theses hoplites...
i don't plan on releasing these and other units, this are intirely for my own use...guess i can mod my EB install as it pleases me, as long as i don't take credit for anything nor distribute it right?
if in the future ppl ask me, and i deem them worthy i'll ask permission to release them of course, but until then only i will use them...
if you ppl want i can remove the screens...i never meant to offend anyone,cuz through what i had read about the EB policies as well as other mods, it was ok if i modded things as i liked, as long as it was for personal use only...
Teleklos Archelaou
09-07-2006, 16:30
You can certainly mod all you want for your own use. No one here is telling you to take down anything - I'm just saying *if* you want to make something available, you should check with the people who made the unit you are altering. It's the same reason we can't just grab trees from NTW2 or something like that.
iberus_generalis
09-07-2006, 16:57
of course, nor was i implying other wise...i tottally understand...i modded in other games, and didn't like to sea my work being used and released by others without my authorisation and permtion to alter...
rest assured, i won't release anything i don't have permition...that's why i have not released my graphical enhancement compilation pack...some of the original authors of mods i used parts of have not yet given me an answer...
With the few casualties you took I’d say they are over powered.
I'm curious about that too - is it a swords vs spears thing? In MTW, swords get an edge over spears. I suspect it carries over to RTW. Has anyone quantified this? So if a spear armed unit (early principes) faces an otherwise identical sword armed one (Trikymia Hoplitai), what adjustment in experience would be needed to make it a draw?
iberus_generalis
09-07-2006, 17:23
i think it does, if not too much, cuz i faced hastati against spears like the early principes, and they seemed to have advantage......
Amur_Tiger
09-07-2006, 18:10
I certainly thing that this is a good idea to have some theoretical units added on to the factions that historically didn't last that long independant of Rome since their development militarily was cut short by Roman conquest. This unit in particular fits well to the greeks since they have their own long history of Hastasi-like units with their Thureophoroi. This sorta connects to the only point I'd make against the unit which is since it's more closely related to their peltast units it might do well to have them pick up a bit more on their design.
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