Gay pride refusniks disciplined.

[InsaneApache]

Four firefighters are due before a disciplinary hearing over their refusal to hand out leaflets at a gay pride march in Glasgow.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5291310.stm)

Now I'm far from anti-gay. I take the view that what people do in their sex lives is a matter for them and them alone, as long as it's consensual.

However I do have a problem with these so-called activists forcing people to do their bidding. In my view they are just as bad as the intolerant anti-gay brigade.

This should be a matter of conscience. No one should be made to promote anything that they may find objectionable.

As an ex-local government officer I would be highly surprised if there existed a clause in their statement of main particulars they were given on accepting the post that made this compulsory.

The freedom to say no is just as valid as the freedom to say yes.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Several religions hold that homosexual practice is imoral, so these firefighters were being prevented from upholding their religious views. As you say, IA, the right to say no is as important as the right to say yes.

If these firefighters were:

Protesting against gay-rights dresses as firefighters;
Refusing to rescue gay people;
Refusing to work with gay people;
Attempting to "save" gay colleagues from their so-called "imoral" lifestyle;
Agreeing to visit a church meetings but refusing to visit a meeting of the Glasgow Gay and Lesbian group;
then discipline would be appropriate.

However, in this case, the Fire Brigade have clearly gone beyond what they can reasonably ask their employers to do.

[edyzmedieval]

This is totally displaced. Come on, you force the firefighters to hand leaflets to gay? They find it immoral and totally disgusting.

You can't force them.

I thought this was democracy. :no:

[Vladimir]

Maybe they should hand out flyers at NAMBLA rally too. :dizzy2:

[Duke John]

I don't get it. What were they supposed to do, walk in the parade handing out leaflets? Or just standing/walking around handing out leaflets? And on the leaflets is what written? Safety guidelines? I've never seen such a thing.


You can't force them.
If it's part of their job description, why not? Religion is not law, thank God!

[Kralizec]

From an article linked to under "see also" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5216244.stm)


It follows the refusal of about 10 men to distribute fire safety literature at the Pride Scotia march in Glasgow.

This is unnacceptable and disciplinary actions are warranted.

[Silver Rusher]

Think about this from their point of view. These people are firefighters, and they are being forced to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade. That would make them seem gay, right? So if they refuse to do it, effectively they just don't want to seem gay. How in any way, shape or form is that homophobic? Sure, they claimed that it was because of religion; if that is the case, fair enough. Of course arguing that it is not part of their core duties is a bit pathetic. I suspect however that these arguments are faked to cover up what I described before.

Whatever reason they have for it though, a disciplinary hearing for this sort of opinion-based behavior is completely unnacceptable.

[Duke Malcolm]

There was a bit of an uproar when the decision to discipline the firemen was made public.
Since this is not part of the proper fireman duties per se, and they are not specific liaison officers (the sort who go around schools, community halls, and such talking about fire safety) they should have been allowed to refuse.

Also, a gay pride march seems quite an irregular place to distribute fire safety information, more of a PR operation than a fire-prevention scheme.

[Andres]

The freedom to say no is just as valid as the freedom to say yes.

I agree.

[Don Corleone]

It sounds like common sense and reason are lacking on both sides of this one. If firefighters frequentlyl distribute fire prevention and safety literature at 3rd party venues: St. Andrew's Day parade, church festivals, etcetera, there's no reason for them to not distribute them at a gay pride festival. However, forcing them to march in the parade is wrong. They should be allowed to have a booth and on the booth it should say "We are here neither to condone nor codemn. We are here to distribute fire prevention literature" and that should be it.

Forcing somebody to say they support gay pride and suggest that they themselves are gay, just because they work for the local government is wrong, and frankly, it's going to make Glasgow have a very hard time finding firefighters. Treating a gay pride event like any other civic event and distributing fire prevention literature is only fair.

[Duke Malcolm]

If firefighters frequentlyl distribute fire prevention and safety literature at 3rd party venues: St. Andrew's Day parade, church festivals, etcetera, there's no reason for them to not distribute them at a gay pride festival.


Treating a gay pride event like any other civic event and distributing fire prevention literature is only fair.

The fire brigade does not usually distribute leaflets at parades and marches, though (there is no St Andrew's Day parade, and it would be an odd sight if they were handing out leaflets to the men of the Orange Order). They only usually hand them out during meetings where someone can talk or somewhere that they can have a small stall.

[Kralizec]

It sounds like common sense and reason are lacking on both sides of this one. If firefighters frequentlyl distribute fire prevention and safety literature at 3rd party venues: St. Andrew's Day parade, church festivals, etcetera, there's no reason for them to not distribute them at a gay pride festival. However, forcing them to march in the parade is wrong. They should be allowed to have a booth and on the booth it should say "We are here neither to condone nor codemn. We are here to distribute fire prevention literature" and that should be it.

Forcing somebody to say they support gay pride and suggest that they themselves are gay, just because they work for the local government is wrong, and frankly, it's going to make Glasgow have a very hard time finding firefighters. Treating a gay pride event like any other civic event and distributing fire prevention literature is only fair.

Exactly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They should be diciplined for disobaying orders, which they did. They should not be diciplined for holding private views, which is their right.

Ultimately they should not have been ordered to do this. They should have been allowed to volenteer and they shouldn't have been in a march for any minoriety or majoriety group. That would indicate partiallity on the part of their service.

Big mess, all the fault of the higher ups, as usual.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

lol this thread is hilarious. What if...what if...somebody thought I was gay!!! ~:eek: ~:eek:



Ten men from the Cowcaddens fire station are under investigation after they refused orders to man an information stall during the Pride Scotia parade. The men were told to attend the June 24 event in uniform and hand out leaflets on fire safety.

The Herald reported that some refused on grounds of conscience, while others were “embarrassed” to attend the event in uniform. Their superior officers reported the men for disobeying orders, said BBC News.

In summary: homophobes got what they deserve :laugh4:

[orangat]

lol this thread is hilarious. What if...what if...somebody thought I was gay!!! ~:eek: ~:eek:

"Ten men from the Cowcaddens fire station are under investigation after they refused orders to man an information stall during the Pride Scotia parade. The men were told to attend the June 24 event in uniform and hand out leaflets on fire safety.

The Herald reported that some refused on grounds of conscience, while others were “embarrassed” to attend the event in uniform. Their superior officers reported the men for disobeying orders, said BBC News."


Ah thats alot different from being forced to hand out _gay_ literature in assless leather chaps now is it.

[Navaros]

This story is completely insane.

"Gay pride" parades should be illegal.

The firefighters who refused to hand out leaflets should be given medals.

[scooter_the_shooter]

This story is completely insane.

"Gay pride" parades should be illegal.

The firefighters who refused to hand out leaflets should be given medals.



I agree but only because in many cases they won't allow a straight pride parade.

[InsaneApache]

lol this thread is hilarious. What if...what if...somebody thought I was gay!!! ~:eek: ~:eek:


Ten men from the Cowcaddens fire station are under investigation after they refused orders to man an information stall during the Pride Scotia parade. The men were told to attend the June 24 event in uniform and hand out leaflets on fire safety.

The Herald reported that some refused on grounds of conscience, while others were “embarrassed” to attend the event in uniform. Their superior officers reported the men for disobeying orders, said BBC News.

In summary: homophobes got what they deserve :laugh4:

But, but, but isn't it the case that obeying orders that go against your conscience a recipe for disaster?

[doc_bean]

I agree but only because in many cases they won't allow a straight pride parade.

They don't ?

We've had some great parodies of the gay movement here, my favourite being the "I'm straight, so what ?" posters and T shirts. :laugh4:
I think it shows an acception of homosexuality if you can parody typical 'gay' things.

[Vladimir]

They don't ?

We've had some great parodies of the gay movement here, my favourite being the "I'm straight, so what ?" posters and T shirts. :laugh4:
I think it shows an acception of homosexuality if you can parody typical 'gay' things.

You "low country" people are hilarious. I need to find the historical reasons why and how the hell you managed to bloody the Spanish so much. :2thumbsup:

[Duke of Gloucester]

In summary: homophobes got what they deserve

Disaproving of homsexual acts is not the same as homophobia. Homophobia would be prejudice or descrimination against homesexuals, abusing them, refusing to work with them or refusing to rescue them. It is not the same thing at all. These people may be homophobic, or they may not want to be associated with something they believe promotes homosexual practice or they may just not want to give up their Saturday afternoon if it is not part of their job. Assuming they are homophobic is wrong unless you want to extend the definition of homophobia outside sensible limits.

The Orange Order parade is an interesting example. There are two possibilities - either firefighters are not ordered to give out leaflets at the parade or there are no catholics in Glasgow's fire service. I am also willing to bet that attendance at church halls is voluntary because of the sectarian divide in Glasgow.

These firefighters will argue that they did not have to obey orders because those orders were not reasonable. I think they have a good case.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Disaproving of homsexual acts is not the same as homophobia. Homophobia would be prejudice or descrimination against homesexuals, abusing them, refusing to work with them or refusing to rescue them. It is not the same thing at all. These people may be homophobic, or they may not want to be associated with something they believe promotes homosexual practice or they may just not want to give up their Saturday afternoon if it is not part of their job. Assuming they are homophobic is wrong unless you want to extend the definition of homophobia outside sensible limits.

The Orange Order parade is an interesting example. There are two possibilities - either firefighters are not ordered to give out leaflets at the parade or there are no catholics in Glasgow's fire service. I am also willing to bet that attendance at church halls is voluntary because of the sectarian divide in Glasgow.

These firefighters will argue that they did not have to obey orders because those orders were not reasonable. I think they have a good case.

"The anxiety of non-gay individuals that others may identify them as gay, particularly among adolescents whose construction of heterosexual masculinity is factored in part on not being seen as gay,[6][7] has also been identified by Michael Kimmel and Matthew Mahler as an example of homophobia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobe

I don't doubt these men would put out a fire in a gay bar as fast as they could. But refusing to hand out pamphlets at a parade is hilariously insecure.


But, but, but isn't it the case that obeying orders that go against your conscience a recipe for disaster?

How is handing out fire safety information a recipe for disaster? Fireman are supposed to help prevent fires, refusing to hand out leaflets makes fires more likely. It's part of the job.

[Don Corleone]

I think you're trolling here, Sasaki. Maybe in liberal paradise all firemen and policemen and all other public servants are forced to parrot your agenda, but here in the real world of sanity, we just require them to treat everyone equally. Nobody should be compelled to endorse a view they do not hold.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think you're trolling here, Sasaki. Maybe in liberal paradise all firemen and policemen and all other public servants are forced to parrot your agenda, but here in the real world of sanity, we just require them to treat everyone equally. Nobody should be compelled to endorse a view they do not hold.

Dude. They're not endorsing homosexuality. As far as I know being gay doesn't make you fireproof, nor does it make your house fireproof, nor does it make your neighbors house, little kids, and adorable kittens fireproof. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Surely putting out the fire of a gay person's house isn't endorsing homosexuality? If it isn't then neither is distributing fire prevention pamphlets. It wouldn't be saying "we agree with homesexuality" it would just be saying "we don't think gays deserve to burn to death because they used the wrong kind of curtains". Surely that's not too much to ask?

[Don Corleone]

If gay people are concerned about fire safety, then they should attend a fire prevention fair like anybody else. If firemen were readily traveling to other civic events, I might see the point of asking them to come to a gay pride march. But let's not kid ourselves here, chief. This is about getting firemen to come and endorse the gay pride parade, not to actually promote fire safety. Neither you nor the parade organizes are half so clever as you seem to think.

[doc_bean]

I think you're trolling here, Sasaki. Maybe in liberal paradise all firemen and policemen and all other public servants are forced to parrot your agenda, but here in the real world of sanity, we just require them to treat everyone equally. Nobody should be compelled to endorse a view they do not hold.

I don't know. if it's their job to hand out flyers at other gatherings, say something like a City Parade (house party) or a carnaval or whatever and they do that but refuse this, I'd say they're in the wrong.

Their excuse is, regardless of the validity, pretty damn lame, as Sasaki has pointed out.

[Don Corleone]

Well, while we're at, white supremacist jerk-offs are just as combustible as homosexuals. Why don't we require them to march in white-power parades and hand out literature? Aren't anarchists flammable? Why don't we require firemen to attend WTO protests and hand out literature? Come on.

And as I mentioned, I agree that if firemen DO attend a host of other civic events distributing literature but refuse this one request, yes, that's being bigoted. But King Malcom said that's not the case, they don't actually attend many civic events at all.

Firemen are not a political tool. They do a damn hard job, occassionally die and are frequently injured, for a little bit of money. But that's not enough... on their spare time, now they're forced to go around endorsing a liberal agenda they don't agree with.... Hmm, looks like you're going to wind up with a Fire Department like that volunteer one Vido found in the Sopranos last season.

[doc_bean]

Well, while we're at, white supremacist jerk-offs are just as combustible as homosexuals. Why don't we require them to march in white-power parades and hand out literature? Aren't anarchists flammable? Why don't we require firemen to attend WTO protests and hand out literature? Come on.

Those would be political events, a gay pride parade is just a big party, unless they're very different across the pond ?


And as I mentioned, I agree that if firemen DO attend a host of other civic events distributing literature but refuse this one request, yes, that's being bigoted. But King Malcom said that's not the case, they don't actually attend many civic events at all.

yes, that's part of the issue here I guess. Did they just refuse because they didn't think it was their job, or were there more homophobic reasons ?

That said, I can understand not wanting to be a fireman in a gay parade, it must be a bit like being a woman at a star trek convention, with every other guy hitting on you...

(actually, not a good analogy, since most trekkies probably don't dare hit on a woman, and most guy men have no problem hitting on just about any guy)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, while we're at, white supremacist jerk-offs are just as combustible as homosexuals. Why don't we require them to march in white-power parades and hand out literature? Aren't anarchists flammable? Why don't we require firemen to attend WTO protests and hand out literature? Come on.

And as I mentioned, I agree that if firemen DO attend a host of other civic events distributing literature but refuse this one request, yes, that's being bigoted. But King Malcom said that's not the case, they don't actually attend many civic events at all.

Firemen are not a political tool. They do a damn hard job, occassionally die and are frequently injured, for a little bit of money. But that's not enough... on their spare time, now they're forced to go around endorsing a liberal agenda they don't agree with.... Hmm, looks like you're going to wind up with a Fire Department like that volunteer one Vido found in the Sopranos last season.

I remember fireman coming to our school when I was little. Were they endorsing the public school system or were they teaching little kids to stop drop and roll?

I didn't know fire safety was part of the liberal agenda. I guess you learn something new everyday.

[Don Corleone]

Those would be political events, a gay pride parade is just a big party, unless they're very different across the pond ?
There are political activities and festive activities both at the gay pride events over here (I have no idea how they go in Scotland). But doesn't the right of free association say you have a right not to attend them if you don't want to? Even if it is just a big "meet, great & be discreet" party, why should straight men who don't agree with that lifestyle be forced to attend?



yes, that's part of the issue here I guess. Did they just refuse because they didn't think it was their job, or were there more homophobic reasons ?

Again with this meaningless term... it is possible to believe homosexuality to be a sinful choice (I don't) and not be 'phobic' of homosexuals. It's possible to believe that and not discriminate against them, as last I checked, we require people to act with equity, we don't penalize thoughts.

[Kralizec]

But, but, but isn't it the case that obeying orders that go against your conscience a recipe for disaster?

Against your conscience to provide equal service to anyone, regardless of sex religion orientation etcetera?


And as I mentioned, I agree that if firemen DO attend a host of other civic events distributing literature but refuse this one request, yes, that's being bigoted. But King Malcom said that's not the case, they don't actually attend many civic events at all.

I really can't see any reason why a firemen should refuse to do his duty to attend a civic event IF the civic event has received a permit, and somebody higher up has decided that some preventive education is in order.

If at a totally different event, say, a Tory or a labour convention where the fire department is handing out flyers and a firemen spots a guy who wears a shirt "I'm gay and proud of it" would it be okay for the firement to refuse to speak, hand out a flyer or acknowledge his existence if he asks for information?

Sasaki hit the nail on the head a couple of posts earlier. These people are just afraid of being associated with homosexuals.

[Vladimir]

"The anxiety of non-gay individuals that others may identify them as gay, particularly among adolescents whose construction of heterosexual masculinity is factored in part on not being seen as gay,[6][7] has also been identified by Michael Kimmel and Matthew Mahler as an example of homophobia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobe


I'm only saying this because it's gathered so much attention in this thread:

I don't care who defines "homophobia" but the modern accepted definition is wrong. A phobia is an irrational fear. If I have a dislike of spiders and don't want a tarantula crawling on me I'm not an arachniphobe. Likewise if homosexuality or homosexual acts make you uncomfortable you're not a homophobe. However in the modern, politically correct definition, you would be.

What rubbish. Same as calling homosexuals "gay". Gay used to mean happy but has been coopted by that movement in general to make the whole disgusting act more palatable. That's not a religious statement, just a reference to sweaty, hairy, man-butt sex.

If the order to distribute leaflets was a lawful order then they should be punished. Now it's up to a court of law or department regulations (then the court) to determine if it was.

OT: Really, the spellchecker here is horrible.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm only saying this because it's gathered so much attention in this thread:

I don't care who defines "homophobia" but the modern accepted definition is wrong. A phobia is an irrational fear. If I have a dislike of spiders and don't want a tarantula crawling on me I'm not an arachniphobe. Likewise if homosexuality or homosexual acts make you uncomfortable you're not a homophobe. However in the modern, politically correct definition, you would be.

What rubbish. Same as calling homosexuals "gay". Gay used to mean happy but has been coopted by that movement in general to make the whole disgusting act more palatable. That's not a religious statement, just a reference to sweaty, hairy, man-butt sex.

If the order to distribute leaflets was a lawful order then they should be punished. Now it's up to a court of law or department regulations (then the court) to determine if it was.

OT: Really, the spellchecker here is horrible.

I suppose you go up to single ladies and ask them if they will have intercourse with you? And think them brazen if they ask if you want to have conversation?

The modern usage is always correct. You can always make up your own word and try to get it accepted if you really want. Homodislikeia, homonovirginiatherearenogaypeopleia, homomyparentswereprudesandsoamIia or homorighteousdisapprovalofia perhaps. None of those really roll off the tongue though do they.

[Papewaio]

Again with this meaningless term... it is possible to believe homosexuality to be a sinful choice (I don't) and not be 'phobic' of homosexuals. It's possible to believe that and not discriminate against them, as last I checked, we require people to act with equity, we don't penalize thoughts.

I agree we shouldn't penalise someone based on thoughts. However their actions can be disciplined.


It follows the refusal of about 10 men to distribute fire safety literature at the Pride Scotia march in Glasgow.

The firefighters, based at Cowcaddens, were reported by superior officers for disobeying orders.

In this case failure to attend a booth to distribute information... if they are professionals then failure to attend a worksite has consequences. In Australia you would typically get a written warning for failing to turn up to work without a valid reason (sick, death in the family etc). Three written warnings and you have your marching orders. There only hope would be that this is the only civic event that they have been asked to attend and hence it isn't within the regular scope of work, however if they have worked at other events then there isn't much hope for that.

Now if they state the reason that they did not attend was that they don't like to be associated with gay people then they have acted on a prejudice. An act of racism or sexism is grounds for instant dismissal.

[Don Corleone]

Well, again, we don't have enough information to say if the firemen were right or wrong. As I said at the beginning, if they frequent civic events distributing fire prevention information at other venues, then they have to attend all civic events. I suspect that this isn't the case here at all. This is all about gay people demanding special rights and decrying the bigotry and oppression when they actually DO get treated like everyone else.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So the gay mafia infiltrated the fire department and blackmailed the chief into ordering his men to man a booth at the parade? :dizzy2:





The Herald reported that some refused on grounds of conscience, while others were “embarrassed” to attend the event in uniform. Their superior officers reported the men for disobeying orders, said BBC News."

As reported by the Sun, the firefighters claimed to have refused to attend the Pride Scotia community fair "on moral grounds"."

They have indeed acted on prejudice...Don, I don't understand why you mention other events. How does not having attented other parades make this not prejudice?

[Duke John]

So the firemen would have been equally right if they refused to hand out flyers to of black people, Christians, Muslims or whatever group they don't like?

Doesn't that kind of behaviour have a name?

[Duke of Gloucester]

I suppose it depends what firefighters are for. If there sole role is to prevent death, injury and destruction of property due to fire and other emergencies then I would want to ask why it was necessary for them to distribute material at a gay pride parade. However if firefighters also have a role in indicating civic endorsement of certain movements and ideas, then their attendance would be taken to show that the City of Glasgow supports the homosexual community. I think the former is correct, so it was wrong for them to be ordered to attend and I sympathise with them in their refusal. Of course the Fire Service is a disciplined organisation, and if the orders were legal, then they must take the consequences of disobeying them.

The fact that this parade was in Glasgow means that we can say that not all Parades are attended by fire service personnel. Orange Order and Nationalist marches would be too contentious for senior fire officers to order their men to attend. Some would refuse and there would be huge controversy if the refusers were disciplined. This means that, in the eyes of the Glasgow fire service homosexual people are being treated differently from Irish Nationalists and staunch protestants. If refusing to attend a parade is re ipso locutor discrimination, then the same applies to religion.

As regards the meaning of homophobia, it is not quite right to say that current usage is always correct, because different people will mean different things by the words they use. There is a danger of so changing the meaning of words that it becomes impossible to express ideas differing from the majority held orthodoxy and this may be happening with homophobia. Homophobia is obviously a bad thing and none of us would want to be accused of being a homophobe, but if we allow the meaning to extend beyond discrimination against people who are homosexual to include a fear of being thought homosexual and discomfort about the idea of homosexuality, then we are constraining free thought by the use of language. Read "1984" if you can't understand what I am talking about.

[Goofball]

Well, again, we don't have enough information to say if the firemen were right or wrong. As I said at the beginning, if they frequent civic events distributing fire prevention information at other venues, then they have to attend all civic events. I suspect that this isn't the case here at all. This is all about gay people demanding special rights and decrying the bigotry and oppression when they actually DO get treated like everyone else.

I have to call you on that particular load of crap Don. What possibly gave you any basis to make that assumption? So are you saying Scottish firefighters also regularly refuse to attend Shriners Parades and Boy Scout outings on the grounds that they are too embarrassed? I have some (very small) sympathy for the ones who declined on religious grounds, but the rest of them should have the book thrown at them.

The fire department ordered the firefighters to attend the parade. The gay community did not demand that they attend, and only became vocal about it when the juvenile masculine insecurity of a few small-minded firefighters decided that the shame of even being seen at such an event would be unbearable.

I love it. Typical conservative doubletalk. Any time homosexuals ask to be treated equally the right accuses them of wanting "special treatment."

Balls.

[Fragony]

The fire department ordered the firefighters to attend the parade. The gay community did not demand that they attend, and only became vocal about it when the juvenile masculine insecurity of a few small-minded firefighters decided that the shame of even being seen at such an event would be unbearable.

I love it. Typical conservative doubletalk. Any time homosexuals ask to be treated equally the right accuses them of wanting "special treatment."

Balls.

They aren't asking to be treated equally, they are asking for special treatment; while knowing that others think otherwise yet using every means at their disposal to enforce it, now who is disrespectfull?

[doc_bean]

They aren't asking to be treated equally, they are asking for special treatment; while knowing that others think otherwise yet using every means at their disposal to enforce it, now who is disrespectfull?

They asked for firemen to distribute flyers at their parade ? Highly doubtful...

[Fragony]

They asked for firemen to distribute flyers at their parade ? Highly doubtful...

Asking goes like this: Could you please [do this and that]

This is demanding, plain and simple. Why not give these firemen the same courtesy you would no doubt give muslims when asking for the same thing.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Asking goes like this: Could you please [do this and that]

This is demanding, plain and simple. Why not give these firemen the same courtesy you would no doubt give muslims when asking for the same thing.


Strathclyde Fire and Rescue in partnership with others are committed to making our communities safe places to live, work and visit.

We are actively involved in Community Safety campaigns both at local and national level. Focusing more attention on education, raising awareness amongst the most vulnerable people within the community in order to reduce the suffering caused by fires and other emergencies. Consequently, the key to our success is a move from re-active to pro-active intervention.

http://www.strathclydefire.org/cs/

[Fragony]

Look I am perfectly fine with firemen wanting to distribute flyers for the gay movement, that is why we have free speech, I would have cared just as much if it were priests. But they don't want it, shouldn't this free-speech thing work both ways?

edit, missed the point you made. But not as much as those demanding these firemen to make theirs.

[doc_bean]

This is demanding, plain and simple. Why not give these firemen the same courtesy you would no doubt give muslims when asking for the same thing.

Even muslims are expected to do their jobs.

[Fragony]

Even muslims are expected to do their jobs.

Oh common, and then you accuse me of baiting. If the muslims refused because the prophet pissed against the wind at full moon and a donkey kicked him in his privates just because of gay interaction there would be army's of socioloco's to dig into this fascinating cultural difference.

[InsaneApache]

heh...all this could have been averted if they'd just asked for volunteers. Inept management, scared to death of offending who/what/why/whoever.

IMO an assault on freedom of expression (the right to say no) and the continuing politicization of the (supposedly) neutral local government officers.

Now guess who I would blame for this? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

[doc_bean]

Oh common, and then you accuse me of baiting. If the muslims refused because the prophet pissed against the wind at full moon and a donkey kicked him in his privates just because of gay interaction there would be army's of socioloco's to dig into this fascinating cultural difference.

People get fired for wearing a headscarfe here, I don't see how they could refuse something like this if it was part of their job.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

heh...all this could have been averted if they'd just asked for volunteers. Inept management, scared to death of offending who/what/why/whoever.

GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL!

[Fragony]

People get fired for wearing a headscarfe here, I don't see how they could refuse something like this if it was part of their job.

But you would see them getting away with it, and you know they would; gelijke monikken gelijke kappen.

heh...all this could have been averted if they'd just asked for volunteers

^---he is right, but they settled for demanding, without having any consideration for cultural background, personal opinion whatsoever. I wish I was 100% right sometimes, must be ace.

[yesdachi]

Also, a gay pride march seems quite an irregular place to distribute fire safety information...
I don’t know, some of them may have been “flaming”. ~D

[AntiochusIII]

^---he is right, but they settled for demanding, without having any consideration for cultural background, personal opinion whatsoever. I wish I was 100% right sometimes, must be ace.The distinction of "they" ought to be made between the fire department management and the participants of the gay pride parade, as that could be a very big "they" between "omg gays and their evilz specialtreament!!!!111" and simple government blunder.

Though, if the job description/contract of the firefighters does include something along the lines of distributing information to the public, then the firefighters' cultural backgrounds/prejudice/sensitivity/etc. are not valid excuses from direct orders.

I still fail to grasp the whole picture of this thing, though. The news aren't detailed enough to make anything like a final judgement call.

[Fragony]

The distinction of "they" ought to be made between the fire department management and the participants of the gay pride parade, as that could be a very big "they" between "omg gays and their evilz specialtreament!!!!111" and simple government blunder.


Sure, but I am not the one making the destinction, why are they (the firemen) disciplined? I am not very informed on the subject but I doubt that when they scream that they are on fire the firedepartment is actually needed. The big 'they' is not the gays and people that have a hard time with it, but those that try to enforce their way by force.

[InsaneApache]

but those that try to enforce their way by force

People, I have had over a decades experience of 'petty beurocrats' beaveing away, empire building, one of the reasons I took redundancy, to get away from these idiots.

Wake up call guys. :sweatdrop:

As an after thought; yes it is political, this has nothing at all to do with 'gay' rights, and everything to do with control.

[Don Corleone]

I have to call you on that particular load of crap Don. What possibly gave you any basis to make that assumption? So are you saying Scottish firefighters also regularly refuse to attend Shriners Parades and Boy Scout outings on the grounds that they are too embarrassed? I have some (very small) sympathy for the ones who declined on religious grounds, but the rest of them should have the book thrown at them.

The fire department ordered the firefighters to attend the parade. The gay community did not demand that they attend, and only became vocal about it when the juvenile masculine insecurity of a few small-minded firefighters decided that the shame of even being seen at such an event would be unbearable.

I love it. Typical conservative doubletalk. Any time homosexuals ask to be treated equally the right accuses them of wanting "special treatment."

Balls.

King Malcom said they don't go to other events.

Again, one more time, if the firefighters go to other civic events, they shouldn't be able to exclude gay-themed events. I've said that, over and over and over and over and over. BUT, if firemen DON"T go to other events, then this is an example of the organizers of the gay pride festival demanding special treatment. King Malcom said they don't do these sorts of things for other civic groups. Now who's speaking doubletalk?

[doc_bean]

BUT, if firemen DON"T go to other events, then this is an example of the organizers of the gay pride festival demanding special treatment.

No, this is an example of SOMONE demanding a special exception, it might as well be the captain making fun of a few 'homophobic members of his crew', it might be a government official at city hall, it might have been a lot of people.

I still see no reason why an organization of something like a gay pride parade would want firemen distributing flyers. And even if they did request it, some should have /could have said : no we don't do that. Don't blame the gay folks since some folks feel like they deserve special treatment.

[InsaneApache]

it might as well be the captain making fun of a few 'homophobic members of his crew', it might be a government official at city hall, it might have been a lot of people.

None of which are democratically elected. I'm sorry to say that so many posters on this thread are naive and deluded.

Now do try to pay attention. This has nothing to do with gay rights or homophobia and everything to do with a political agenda.

:wall:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think there are some issues here not being disscussed.

1. "Gay Pride" is a political lobby in this country. Its proved by the simple fact that they have marches and straight people don't. Its all about accerting their right to be gay in modern society.

2. Pretty much every world religion condems homosexual practices if not the gender. As such a devout Christian can claim their right not to attend a Gay event on religious grounds.

Its like asking a Catholic to attend an Orange Order parade. That's the accurate comparison. You wouldn't do it, would you? You'd find a Protestant instead.

Oh, and before all the liberals here go off on one the issue of homosexuality vs universal love is something all good Christians wrestle with.

[Goofball]

King Malcom said they don't go to other events.

Again, one more time, if the firefighters go to other civic events, they shouldn't be able to exclude gay-themed events. I've said that, over and over and over and over and over. BUT, if firemen DON"T go to other events, then this is an example of the organizers of the gay pride festival demanding special treatment. King Malcom said they don't do these sorts of things for other civic groups. Now who's speaking doubletalk?

Still you, my friend. You have now stated in two posts that the organizers of the Gay Pride Parade are demanding special treatment, when in fact it was not them, but the fire department administration who initiated this whole kafuffle. So it was not the gay community demanding any kind of special treatment whatsoever.

At any rate, I believe that we still have a fundamental difference on this issue anyway. Many things that you would deem special treatment, I would simply look at as equality, dignity, and respect.

Let me ask you: If a local synagogue requested that a fire department put on a fire safety seminar and the muslim members of the department refused on the grounds that Jews are dirty and they don't want to associate with them, would you be defending their right to this refusal? Even though the synagogue was asking for "special treatment?"

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know about you guys, but I hate it when people hand me pamphlets. You just have to carry it around until you find a garbage can. You're making it sound like their giving out free ice cream or something.

The police and several other organizations also had booths there. It's an easy way to get information out to activists who are probably going to pay attention.

[Don Corleone]

Still you, my friend. You have now stated in two posts that the organizers of the Gay Pride Parade are demanding special treatment, when in fact it was not them, but the fire department administration who initiated this whole kafuffle. So it was not the gay community demanding any kind of special treatment whatsoever.

At any rate, I believe that we still have a fundamental difference on this issue anyway. Many things that you would deem special treatment, I would simply look at as equality, dignity, and respect.

Let me ask you: If a local synagogue requested that a fire department put on a fire safety seminar and the muslim members of the department refused on the grounds that Jews are dirty and they don't want to associate with them, would you be defending their right to this refusal? Even though the synagogue was asking for "special treatment?"

You're absolutely right Goofball. I'm sooooo Stttttuuuuupppppiiddddd. Of course, it was the fire department administrators, acting completely on their own behest. The gay pride organizers were as surprised as anyone. Give me a break.

If other groups have the Firemen coming to hand out pamphlets and the gay group was rejected, that's unfair treatment. If the Firemen pretty much stick to fighting fires, and the gay pride people say "HEY!!! You have to come to our march and hand out literature or we'll sue you for being homophobes", that's special treatment. Show me the Synagagoue that gets the firemen to visit, and I'll join in with you in a heartbeat. But come back empty and you're proving my point... SPECIAL TREATMENT, just because of whom they choose to sleep with.

[Husar]

"The anxiety of non-gay individuals that others may identify them as gay, particularly among adolescents whose construction of heterosexual masculinity is factored in part on not being seen as gay,[6][7] has also been identified by Michael Kimmel and Matthew Mahler as an example of homophobia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobe
According to that, I am homophobe, do you hate me now?:inquisitive:

[Papewaio]

Oh, and before all the liberals here go off on one the issue of homosexuality vs universal love is something all good Christians wrestle with.

So this wrestling is it with the other 'contestant' and is it in mud or jello? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

[Duke of Gloucester]

Let me ask you: If a local synagogue requested that a fire department put on a fire safety seminar and the muslim members of the department refused on the grounds that Jews are dirty and they don't want to associate with them, would you be defending their right to this refusal? Even though the synagogue was asking for "special treatment?"

Firstly, Goof, lets remind every one that the idea that Jews are dirty and not to be associated with does not occur in the Koran and any Moslem who claimed that would not be accurate about the teaching of his or her own faith. Even if the Koran did teach that, the two situations are not the same. Some people (wrongly in my view) will see the Firefighters' attendance at a parade as an endorsement of homosexual practice. Many religions (including Islam) teach that homosexual practice is wrong. Therefore by insisting that firefighters attend the parade you might be forcing them to act against their religous convcitions. Explaining to a group of Jewish people how to make their homes safer and what to do in a fire is not endorsing Judaism. It is endorsing the idea that Jewish people should not die in a fire. The exact parallel is ordering Green firefighters to attend the 12th of July Orange parade or Orange firefighters to attend a Green parade. I am confident that these two orders are never given.

You accuse DC of doubletalk, but I think that yours and Sasaki's (and others - your not the only two in the world!) conception of homophobia is an example of doubletalk because you are attempting to make certain ideas impossible to express. Homophobia used to mean hating people with homosexual tendencies, abusing them, assualting them, refusing to give them jobs: disgusting practices all. Now you want homophobia to include believing homosexual practices to be imoral, feeling revulsion at the idea of homosexual practices, disliking seeing two men kissing, feeling uncomfortable, as a man, if you are propositioned by another man and even poor teenage lads worrying about being homosexual (because not wanting to be homosexual is homophobic, right). You lump all people with those views and reactions together with thugs who beat up people. That is doubletalk according to George Orwell's definition.

[doc_bean]

You're absolutely right Goofball. I'm sooooo Stttttuuuuupppppiiddddd. Of course, it was the fire department administrators, acting completely on their own behest. The gay pride organizers were as surprised as anyone. Give me a break.


Errr...yes. Stuff like this happens, Fragony has posted a ton of examples of how things have changed in the Netherlands to 'benefit/not insult' muslims were the initiative didn't come from a muslim, let alone a group of them having reached a consensus.

Stupid stuff like this happens in a bureaucracy.

[Goofball]

You're absolutely right Goofball. I'm sooooo Stttttuuuuupppppiiddddd. Of course, it was the fire department administrators, acting completely on their own behest. The gay pride organizers were as surprised as anyone. Give me a break.

Sorry, but according to the article that's what happened. Any ideas to the contrary are pure speculation on your part. And in my opinion, baseless speculation. You have been basing your anti-gay slant in this thread on actions that you have attributed yourself to the gay community, and you have no proof whatsoever that they occurred.

But if inserting your own assumptions into the article is what you need to do to support your point of view, who am I to say no?



Let me ask you: If a local synagogue requested that a fire department put on a fire safety seminar and the muslim members of the department refused on the grounds that Jews are dirty and they don't want to associate with them, would you be defending their right to this refusal? Even though the synagogue was asking for "special treatment?"Firstly, Goof, lets remind every one that the idea that Jews are dirty and not to be associated with does not occur in the Koran and any Moslem who claimed that would not be accurate about the teaching of his or her own faith. Even if the Koran did teach that, the two situations are not the same. Some people (wrongly in my view) will see the Firefighters' attendance at a parade as an endorsement of homosexual practice. Many religions (including Islam) teach that homosexual practice is wrong. Therefore by insisting that firefighters attend the parade you might be forcing them to act against their religous convcitions. Explaining to a group of Jewish people how to make their homes safer and what to do in a fire is not endorsing Judaism. It is endorsing the idea that Jewish people should not die in a fire. The exact parallel is ordering Green firefighters to attend the 12th of July Orange parade or Orange firefighters to attend a Green parade. I am confident that these two orders are never given.

And so another religion-based hatred is allowed to fester and seethe, rather than exposing it to daylight. That still doesn't make it right.


You accuse DC of doubletalk, but I think that yours and Sasaki's (and others - your not the only two in the world!) conception of homophobia is an example of doubletalk because you are attempting to make certain ideas impossible to express. Homophobia used to mean hating people with homosexual tendencies, abusing them, assualting them, refusing to give them jobs: disgusting practices all. Now you want homophobia to include believing homosexual practices to be imoral, feeling revulsion at the idea of homosexual practices, disliking seeing two men kissing, feeling uncomfortable, as a man, if you are propositioned by another man and even poor teenage lads worrying about being homosexual (because not wanting to be homosexual is homophobic, right). You lump all people with those views and reactions together with thugs who beat up people. That is doubletalk according to George Orwell's definition.

I suggest you go back and reread the thread. You have attributed a lot of the "homophobia definition discussion" to me, when I actually took no part in it. Mainly, because it is irrelevant what we call it. Some of the firefighters, by their own admission, refused to attend because they were afraid people would associate them with homosexuals or homosexuality.

Call that whatever you want.

To me, it simply demonstrates a lack of self knowledge and self confidence.

[Duke of Gloucester]

And so another religion-based hatred is allowed to fester and seethe, rather than exposing it to daylight. That still doesn't make it right.


Actually sectarianism in Glasgow is pretty much up-front rather than festering. Whether it is right or not, it is there. The point was the "parallel situation" drawn in your post was not quite a parallel, whereas, in Glasgow there is a much closer parallel where the same rules will not be applied (because it is Glasgow).


I suggest you go back and reread the thread. You have attributed a lot of the "homophobia definition discussion" to me, when I actually took no part in it. Mainly, because it is irrelevant what we call it. Some of the firefighters, by their own admission, refused to attend because they were afraid people would associate them with homosexuals or homosexuality.

True. You called it "juvenile masculine insecurity" and "small-minded".
You referred to doubletalk. My point is that there is doubletalk on both sides.

[Shaun]

When People refuse to do thier job over silly religious old fashioned phobias they deserve the sack. They werent being asked to kiss them, to pose naked or anything, just give out leaflets. If we have people like this so un willing to do thier job in the fire service, then they should get the sack.

[Duke Malcolm]

If we have people like this so un willing to do thier job in the fire service, then they should get the sack.

But that isn't their job. It is the job of the liaison officers. That is exactly why 5 of the firemen refused to attend. Let us not forget only 4 (or 5) objected on moral grounds.

[Shaun]

But that isn't their job. It is the job of the liaison officers. That is exactly why 5 of the firemen refused to attend. Let us not forget only 4 (or 5) objected on moral grounds.

So what? Does that make thier blatant homophobia any better? I think not, and how dare they object on moral grounds, if they can do that then what can I object to on moral grounds?
Sack them, sack them all, they deserve it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Since when are right wingers moral relativists?

[mystic brew]

since everyone is a moral relativist?

[Duke Malcolm]

So what? Does that make thier blatant homophobia any better? I think not, and how dare they object on moral grounds, if they can do that then what can I object to on moral grounds?
Sack them, sack them all, they deserve it.

As I said, 5 refused not due to any such homophobia, but because it was not their job. The remainder refused on moral grounds, perhaps they should be disciplined, if it was their job. While I cannot find an article, the BBC News reported that they were required to turn up in fire-fighting uniform, at a gay-pride parade that may be quite embarassing and hence the refusal on moral grounds (this was what was suggested when the firemen refused).

The key point is, though, that this is not their job. When the Fire Brigade sends people round about to schools, fayres, or wherever else they have been (as is usually the case, by-the-by. Unless it is a public show, a Careers or Public Service Fayre).

Furthermore, if institutions must be sensitive to the public and their preferences, beliefs and opinions (as such was the reason behind sending people to a gay pride march), surely they must also be sensitive to their employees and their prefences, beliefs and opinions, especially in such a religiously polarised place as Glasgow. After all, we would not expect deeply Catholic policemen to be ordered to attend and keep down the Catholic protests at the Orangemen marches to celebrate the Battle of the Boyne in Northern Ireland or in Glasgow, without being allowed to refuse.

[Shaun]

As I said, 5 refused not due to any such homophobia, but because it was not their job. The remainder refused on moral grounds, perhaps they should be disciplined, if it was their job. While I cannot find an article, the BBC News reported that they were required to turn up in fire-fighting uniform, at a gay-pride parade that may be quite embarassing and hence the refusal on moral grounds (this was what was suggested when the firemen refused).

The key point is, though, that this is not their job. When the Fire Brigade sends people round about to schools, fayres, or wherever else they have been (as is usually the case, by-the-by. Unless it is a public show, a Careers or Public Service Fayre).

Furthermore, if institutions must be sensitive to the public and their preferences, beliefs and opinions (as such was the reason behind sending people to a gay pride march), surely they must also be sensitive to their employees and their prefences, beliefs and opinions, especially in such a religiously polarised place as Glasgow. After all, we would not expect deeply Catholic policemen to be ordered to attend and keep down the Catholic protests at the Orangemen marches to celebrate the Battle of the Boyne in Northern Ireland or in Glasgow, without being allowed to refuse.

What exactly is the firemans job? They came round to my school to hand over leafets, its them that promote fire saftey, so I really dont see why its thier job to go round schools doing it, but not a gay pride march. Now, I always thought job came above religion, so yes a catholic ploliceman would be sent to control Catholic riots, after all, if the police man suddenly finds out the guy hes beating up with his truncheon is the same religion as him he cant suddenly stop, can he?

[InsaneApache]

What exactly is the firemans job?

Well the clues in the name. They put out fires.

Also, as your being so correct, may I point out that they are firefighters, not firemen.

That is unless, of couse, you are being sexist? :laugh4:

BTW welcome to the backroom

[AntiochusIII]

BTW welcome to the backroomHe's been around. ~:)

Nonetheless, I don't think I'll ever take any of the posts here with full seriousness until somebody actually provide a full picture of what in the world is going on, else we'll essentially be debating on different interpretations of the premise.

A few lines in a news articles do not feed a prolonged debate well.

[Duke of Gloucester]

It would seem that the Glasgow Fire Service agree with Shaun, Sasaki et al. Refusing to attend Gay Pride Parade is "homophobia". One refuser has been demoted and the others have had written warnings. These punishments could be justified on the grounds that they refused to obey orders. However the fact they have been ordered to attend "diversity training" indicates that, no matter what sensible people say, not wanting to go to Pride Scotia is, in fact, homophobia.:wall:

Just to prove that Strathclyde Fire and Rescue are not the only idiots, the Catholic Archbishop has said: "The duty to obey one's conscience is a higher duty than that of obeying orders." True, Your Grace, but not wanting to be propositioned or see someone dressed as a nun is hardly a matter for concientious objection.

Edit: Meant to add link: bbc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)

[Duke Malcolm]

What exactly is the firemans job? They came round to my school to hand over leafets, its them that promote fire saftey, so I really dont see why its thier job to go round schools doing it, but not a gay pride march. Now, I always thought job came above religion, so yes a catholic ploliceman would be sent to control Catholic riots, after all, if the police man suddenly finds out the guy hes beating up with his truncheon is the same religion as him he cant suddenly stop, can he?

Well, they came to my school, also. But the firemen who go to school are either volunteers or liaison officers. Unlike the people who refused to attend the march.