How should young criminals be treated?

[Andres]

A few months ago, a boy, 17 years old, got stabbed to death for his mp3-player in Brussel-Centraal, a Belgian railway station.

One of the accomplices, 16 years old, got caught recently and is hold in detention in a juvenile prison.

Today, I read in a belgian newspaper, he has already been permitted 10 times to leave his prison (under surveillance off course) so he could: visit his family (ok, I can understand this), play soccer (!), mountainbike (!!), go to the movies (!!!) and finally, to go and watch a soccer game of the Belgian national team (!!!!).

Now, I'm willing to agree that a young criminal can be reintegrated in society and therefore, he must be able to leave his prison from time to time.

But isn't this a bit exaggerated? I mean, he's accomplice to murder/manslaughter and his "punishment".... well it seems like a holiday to me!

Wouldn't it be better to let him out of his prison to e.g. work for a week in an institution for drugs addicts, to help a nurse that's taking care of a victim of violence or something else, more useful then just having fun playing soccer or going to the movies?

How is this possible?

What about his parents who read this in the newspapers? They lost a son that would have loved to go playing soccer, mountainbiking, watching a game from the national soccer team...

Is my anger justified?

[doc_bean]

A quick note: he hasn't been trialed (sp?) yet, so he is technically still "innocent". While I don't agree with the privileges he's getting, they're really nothing special. I know a warden who often has to take convicts (actually convicted) swimming or on bike rides. Often they return with someone missing.
So before we talk about how we should treat minors accused of a crime it might be a good idea to reconsider our policy towards convicted (adult) criminals. You can't treat the first group worse than the second...

[Fragony]

Is my anger justified?

Yup. Personally I think we should just hand them out to the mobs so they get rip out a few chunks but I guess we should let the judges decide wether or not they get a Xbox360 if they promise they won't do it anymore.

For all offenders 3 strikes out. Not the american variety which puts you away for life(?), but an additional 10 years on top of sentences already passed.

anyway, not like this http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/016587.html#comments

[Andres]

Ok, he hasn't been trialed, but his actions got filmed. Although the court has to decide about the question "guilty or not", it's pretty clear he was an accomplice.

Doc, if this kind of priviliges aren't uncommon, well, it makes me even more angry.

I can't stop thinking of all the victims of (minor) criminals who read this kind of stuff. It just gives the wrong signal. On the one hand, it will strengthen young criminals in their believes that there is no punishment for their behaviour and on the other hand, the community will start to think (young) criminals don't get punished.

And thus people get angry, not satisfied and in the best case, these unhappy people vote for extreme political parties, in the worst case they buy a gun and go on a rampage, because they feel they have to make justice their own.

And the ministers responsabile for the Justice and Security departements reacted that they are "upset about the matter". That's all. They are just "upset".

:no:

[Fragony]

On the one hand, it will strengthen young criminals in their knowledge that there is no punishment for their behaviour and on the other hand, the community already knows criminals don't get punished.


Fixed it for ya. Ah well they are all victims because we are all sinners, he should have just given it, not doing so was probably not respectfull for their customs at all.

example.

How would you feel if you don't speak the language, kindly offer a granny to help her carry her bag, and because of her fear of the unknown you become stigmatised? Only goes to show how bad that social exclusion thingie really is, does the strangest things to the little rascals.

Of course it's all just a cry for help.

[doc_bean]

Ok, he hasn't been trialed, but his actions got filmed. Although the court has to decide about the question "guilty or not", it's pretty clear he was an accomplice.

Our courts work slowly, that's another big problem here, but regardless he is entitled to a fair trial.



Doc, if this kind of priviliges aren't uncommon, well, it makes me even more angry.

They are. You do know that escaping from prison isn't a crime, don't you ? There have been cases of people escaping, going to their own home and living there for 20years or so before getting caught again, because of a traffic violation.



I can't stop thinking of all the victims of (minor) criminals who read this kind of stuff. It just gives the wrong signal. On the one hand, it will strengthen young criminals in their believes that there is no punishment for their behaviour and on the other hand, the community will start to think (young) criminals don't get punished.

Well, it's true, our justice system is a joke. I forgot to point that out in the Vlaams Belang thread, but the major reason people vote for VB is that they feel our justice system has completely failed. And honestly, I do think they are right. Now Onckelinx isn't doing a bad job imo, she's had some good ideas and it's probably the toughest position in our government to handle. But there is a clear lack of political will to spend money on things like prison. For over a decade we haven't been able to lock up all our criminals. When you are sentenced to less than 1 year you don't even have to go to jail anymore, did you know that ?

Our youth 'prison' are even more overcrowded, often when someone is sentenced she/he has to wait a while before there's a spot available :dizzy2:



And thus people get angry, not satisfied and in the best case, these unhappy people vote for extreme political parties, in the worst case they buy a gun and go on a rampage, because they feel they have to make justice their own.

If you're referring to whatever-his-name-was who shot the little girl and her nanny, I don't see a clear connection.
Then again, if someone hurts someone I love, I will hunt them down and kill them :skull: You just can't rely on our justice system.



And the ministers responsabile for the Justice and Security departements reacted that they are "upset about the matter". That's all. They are just "upset".

:no:

You're reading too much :oops:

Ministers have to work within their budget, with approval from parliament, which makes it very hard for a (potentially) very expensive department like the justice department to change much. Even so, it's the judges who have to give leave, and pronounce sentences, and approve early release, and it is even forbidden for ministers to get involved (well, they do have certain privileges, but it's complicated). Giving the criminals so much leave is the fault of the judges, laws that allow this have of course been passed by previous governments, but they were obviously not meant for cases like this.
When something like this happens parliament tends to jump on it and passes some new half-arsed law (like the new gun law), but without something like this happening, parliament is sloooooooow (like the gun law, before the shootings).

The papers of course, love to blame it on the ministers, as if they were some all powerful beings, truth is they are just people trying to steer a massive bureaucracy and even with the best intentions, there's only so much that can be done. I'm sick and tired of people calling for their resignation when something is obviously not their fault. Like the Dutroux escape, the minister didn't plan the security, or arrange the transport or whatever, yet they resigned. :juggle2:

Now De Gucht, that's another matter, after what he said today I was ready to hit him. How is it possible that we allow such idiots to be our representatives ? not only that, but that we pay them (an awful lot) to make us look so bad ?

I swear I'm going to start my own party someday...

[doc_bean]

Fixed it for ya. Ah well they are all victims because we are all sinners, he should have just given it, not doing so was probably not respectfull for their customs at all.



This has little to nothing to do with immigrants, stop baiting Fragony...

[Fragony]

This deserves an edit.

[Andres]

The papers of course, love to blame it on the ministers, as if they were some all powerful beings, truth is they are just people trying to steer a massive bureaucracy and even with the best intentions, there's only so much that can be done. I'm sick and tired of people calling for their resignation when something is obviously not their fault. Like the Dutroux escape, the minister didn't plan the security, or arrange the transport or whatever, yet they resigned. :juggle2:

Hm, well, I don't agree 100 % with you.

I do agree that it was the judge who made an error. But it was an error allowed by the system, namely the law and other regulations.

The ministers are part of the executive power and one can argue that they don't make the law nor the other regulations. They are made by the Parliament, the legislative body.

But, nowadays, the system of checks and balances or "la séparation des pouvoirs" only exists in theory. In fact parliament and executive power are falling together, both are controlled by the majority parties. And it are those majority parties, inlcuding their ministers, who make the law and other regulations.

Socialists (PS & SP.A) and Liberals (VLD and MR) are in control for quite a few years now. In my humble opinion, they have had plenty of time already to change things, including ridiculous, incomprehensive, absurd and bad regulations/laws.

So, maybe you cannot blame them in their function of minister, you can still blame them because as being leading members of the parties who are in control of both the legislative as the executive powers of our country, they didn't change much in the past few years.

If politicians would be brave enough to take harsh and non popular decisions, they can change a lot in a relatively short period of time.

Considering the "taking a gun and shoot the criminals yourself"- part of my post, I wasn't referring to the lunatic in Antwerp.

[yesdachi]

Criminals should be forced to replace that which they have taken. In this case he would replace the 17 year old. If he is not compliant with his chores his C4 collar detonates.

[doc_bean]

Hm, well, I don't agree 100 % with you.

I do agree that it was the judge who made an error. But it was an error allowed by the system, namely the law and other regulations.

True, but the minister is only a small part of an ongoing tradition.


The ministers are part of the executive power and one can argue that they don't make the law nor the other regulations. They are made by the Parliament, the legislative body.

True, and quite important, at least in theory.


But, nowadays, the system of checks and balances or "la séparation des pouvoirs" only exists in theory. In fact parliament and executive power are falling together, both are controlled by the majority parties. And it are those majority parties, inlcuding their ministers, who make the law and other regulations.

Okay two things here

1. Yes, the party system is a curse and it needs to be adressed, but that's idle hope for now i'm afraid
2. Since the executive ahs to follow party guidelines they are extremely limited in what they can do. If one resigns another will take their place, following the same guidelines, a resignation just indicates that a scapegoat is being used instead of adressing the real problem, the vision of the government. Another added problem is that any new minister needs time to adjust to the new post, so in fact, the department would become even less efficient. That, and we'd still have to pay the one that resigns, when she doesn't resign, she's saving us money :2thumbsup:



Socialists (PS & SP.A) and Liberals (VLD and MR) are in control for quite a few years now.

Well if it's the governments fault, as a whole, then everyone should resign. Nobody is calling for that now are they ?


In my humble opinion, they have had plenty of time already to change things, including ridiculous, incomprehensive, absurd and bad regulations/laws.

You overestimate their powers.


So, maybe you cannot blame them in their function of minister, you can still blame them because as being leading members of the parties who are in control of both the legislative as the executive powers of our country, they didn't change much in the past few years.

True, but then if they resign, they're scapegoats.


If politicians would be brave enough to take harsh and non popular decisions, they can change a lot in a relatively short period of time.

Well, they'd still have to fight the bureacracy, work within their budget, coordinate with other departements, get the changes approved by the other majority parties and parliament and work based on what their staff sees fit to tell them. But yes, part of why nothing happens is because they have to be careful, no party has a clear majority anymore, so none can afford to become unpopular. Then again, a clear majority often leads to laziness (50years of cvp have shown that...). When it comes to politics, it always feels like a lose-lose situation.



Considering the "taking a gun and shoot the criminals yourself"- part of my post, I wasn't referring to the lunatic in Antwerp.

Okay, surprisingly few people do that though. i can't think of a single case. maybe when things like that start happening they'll start paying attention ?

[Andres]

Well if it's the governments fault, as a whole, then everyone should resign. Nobody is calling for that now are they ?

I am. But nobody listens... :shame:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is reform possible or is recidivism inevitable?

If reform is possible, what is the best means to effect it?

Can those same means be used with underage offenders?

At what point of emotional/physical development is someone responsible for their actions?


Belgium is NOT unique in not having fully developed answers to this questions.

[Samurai Waki]

Send him down to Davey Jone's Locker :inquisitive: (assuming he's been found guilty... and the Belgian Justice System passes a Pirate Execution Law.

[ShadesWolf]

Gah Gah Gah

Please save us from do gooder Liberals