Hetairoi in Greek

[abou]

How was Hetairoi spelled in Greek characters? Is the 'e' an e psilon or eta?

έταιροι vs ήταιροι

[O'ETAIPOS]

first version - epsilon

[abou]

Another question for the EB team in relation to Hetairoi: is it okay to use the Hetairoi models as images for the Wikipedia entry? It is a safe assumption that if a model is in EB it is probably as close as you can get to what actually had appeared, right?

Oh, almost forgot! Thanks, O'ETAIPOS.

[JeffBag]

Considering some Wikipedia entries like the schiltron, cataphracts, and shield wall use Barbarian Invasion models, I suppose the use of EB's models would be far superior to the use of those pastel coloured models. I suppose it is still best to ask an EB team member before you proceed.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I dunno really. I don't think we would have any objections, but it seems a little weird. I guess if there are copyright issues with getting other depictions to use, then using a shot out of the mod would be acceptable in lieu of nothing.

I doubt we would actively promote this sort of thing, but if it was used I really don't think we would object either - and if we did we would understand it had been done with good intentions and just ask for it's removal.

[O'ETAIPOS]

The problem is that in Alexander times Hetairoi used spear in one hand grip (EB uses much later 2 hand grip for them). So I would say rather not.

[paullus]

...especially since there are reliefs of hetairoi from alexander's time! say, on the alexander sarcophagus, you get rather nice-looking, detailed, and contemporary shots of Alexander and his cavalry.

[pezhetairoi]

While we're on about Greek, can someone tell me how '-oi', '-ei' and '-ai' are supposed to be pronounced?

[paullus]

oi - basically like it looks, kinda like: "oE" i guess
ei - A
ai - I

though people will disagree over pronunciations

[Teleklos Archelaou]

To give words in english that might help you get the pronunciation pez, boy (-oi) and sky (-ai) are good examples. No mistaking how to say those! :grin:

[paullus]

ah, yeah, that's what i needed...way to go, and happy bday!

[pezhetairoi]

thanks teleklos and paullus, and happy birthday TA! :D

[Atreidis]

oi - basically like it looks, kinda like: "oE" i guess
ei - A
ai - I

though people will disagree over pronunciations

In Greeklish (that is greek in latin characters) all words are pronounced like Greek words

So in Greeklish "oi" is pronounced like ee (as bee), "ei" also is ee (like bee), and "ai" as e (as in s-e-x)

So Hetairoi is pronounced Eteri.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Err... Is it Modern greek pronounciation? Because it is not even near ancient one (at least the one I know)

[Atreidis]

Hetairoi is an ancient word, we don't use it anymore in Greek. So yes it is an ancient promounciation

Your username says it all. Etairos is pronounced like Eteros ("e" as g-e-t) not Etiros (with "i' as f-i-ght)

[O'ETAIPOS]

My books claim that double vovel were both pronounced (exception oy=u)
And what happened to ' thing? Shouldnt it be pronounced H?

[Atreidis]

My books claim that double vovel were both pronounced (exception oy=u)
And what happened to ' thing? Shouldnt it be pronounced H?

They are pronounce if there is this symbol above the second vovel "¨".
"αι" is e (e-mpty)
"ει", "οι" are "e" (r-e-make)

However "αϊ" is pronounced like "i" (I am) "εϊ" is "ey" (h-ey) and "οϊ" is "oi".

As for the 'thing I don't know what you mean.

[paullus]

he's talking about aspirations, and i've never seen an umlaut on ancient greek...

[Atreidis]

I will check books. Ancient Greek had a lot of aspirations modern only one.
I am not very good in Ancient Greek, my grades sucked at school.

[Conradus]

He means the spiritus asper, which you have to pronounce as a 'h' (if what we get at school of ancient greek is anywhere near correct)

hence 'etairoi would be pronounced as Hetairoi just like you read it?

[Atreidis]

He means the spiritus asper, which you have to pronounce as a 'h' (if what we get at school of ancient greek is anywhere near correct)

hence 'etairoi would be pronounced as Hetairoi just like you read it?

No for this I am absolutely sure names like, Hetairoi, Hypaspistai all have the spiritus asper (I think you mean this ~ right?)

If you want to pronounce them like ancient Greeks did, leave the 'H' out and call them , Ypapaspistai, Etairoi etc

In English they pronounce the 'H' as well, classic example the Greek name "Eleni" (which has the spiritus asper) is called Helen in English

[Conradus]

Every ancient Greek word that you now write with a 'h' starts with a spiritus asper
but if the ancient Greek we get is correct then you have to pronounce the words as hetairoi,... (not a very clear 'h' but more of an aspiration of every word.

[L'Impresario]

To give words in english that might help you get the pronunciation pez, boy (-oi) and sky (-ai) are good examples. No mistaking how to say those!

Well, it's not an entirely correct answer, as he didn't say he wanted the pronounciation in Attic Greek. "Hetairoi" as a word was definately used many more times in Koine;)

[QwertyMIDX]

Just ignoring the h is the wrong way to pronounce the word. Aspiration has a very distinct sound to it, for example compare the english 'd' (aspirated) with the frech 'd' (unaspirated). The sound is substanitally different. In ancient greek you have to voice the aspiration which is represented by the intial h (as well as the h in th, ph and kh combinations).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Once unit lists are absolutely finalized, there might be some pronunciation key or something (who knows) added to the website. I doubt we have enough manpower or energy to put sound files up for each though. Maybe. For Greek, the voicemod will not have a koine pronunciation but a classical one. Hetairoi will definitely be pronounced: Heh-TIE-roy

[L'Impresario]

For Greek, the voicemod will not have a koine pronunciation but a classical one.

A bit anachronistic, don't you think? OTOH I'd be really anxious to see how people would encorporate the pitch accents in 5th cent. Attic, if anyone was up to the task heh
Ofcourse one could go with stressing the relevant syllables, either way that would be better to show the evolution towards the Koine language.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

no attempts at getting the pitch accent are planned as far as I know. If most professors who study this for a living can't get very close to it, there's no way we can. We would like to go with a syllable stress (instead of a pitch one on those syllables). Heck, we still don't have anyone to even do the classical ones yet as far as I know, so it's not like any of it really matters.

As far as any claim that its anachronistic, koine might have started in our period, but at our start date those changes have not taken place across the empire yet. Some standardization has, but not the big changes that people associate with koine.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Just ignoring the h is the wrong way to pronounce the word. Aspiration has a very distinct sound to it, for example compare the english 'd' (aspirated) with the frech 'd' (unaspirated). The sound is substanitally different. In ancient greek you have to voice the aspiration which is represented by the intial h (as well as the h in th, ph and kh combinations).

It's a bit like 'cat' or 'hat' in Queens English, it's not a 'h' like German or Dutch ones, it's somewhere between not voiced and voiced. Like: 'p' not voiced, 'b' voiced, and 'ph' aspirated. Of course, if you don't quite get the difference then you can always use the Latin name of the Greek 'h': spiritus (h)asper, where - to pronounce it correctly - 'asper' is asperiated.

[Tellos Athenaios]

As far as any claim that its anachronistic, koine might have started in our period, but at our start date those changes have not taken place across the empire yet. Some standardization has, but not the big changes that people associate with koine.

Indeed, that's the koine in which the bible was written, and just after Alexander's death the language would still have been pretty similair to the classical style from Athens - with only a bit more Ionian words.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, it's not an entirely correct answer, as he didn't say he wanted the pronounciation in Attic Greek. "Hetairoi" as a word was definately used many more times in Koine;)

Maybe, yet the female version (which is also a byword for prostitute, the koine for prostitute being also gyne porne) was commonly used and pronounced nearly the same: 'Hetairai'.

[L'Impresario]

The hellenistic koine period dates from 323BC, with the dead of Alexander, and you already have importants works in the language that early, in the 3rd cent. BC for example, one can find the Old Testament translation by hellenised Jews, which shows various interesting influences that had become prominent by then. Even from the late 4th cent. BC there are countless letters and documents among the Egyptian scrolls found written in Koine.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Actually read up on when those changes start taking place instead of trying to pretend like since Alexander dies, that means the Hellenistic period beings, and thus koine (which becomes more common in that period) would start in 323. To put it even more simply: in 272 kings and generals aren't speaking New Testament koine.

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edit: One of the big changes in koine is in the pronunciation of phi, theta, and chi. Here is a clear description of when that change occurs:


From Vox Graeca: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek by W. Sidney Allen 1974 Cambridge.
The evidence thus seems conclusive that in 5 c. Attic φ, θ, χ represented plosives (as π, τ, κ) and NOT fricatives (as ς, or as φ, θ, χ in modern Greek). The continuation of the plosive pronunciation into a later period is shown by the fact that Latin renders Greek φ at first as a simple p, later as ph (e.g. Pilipus, Philippus), but never in classical Latin times as f, which would have been appropriate for a fricative pronunciation… However, there is no doubt that, as modern Greek shows, the aspirated plosives did eventually change to fricatives. Evidence is sometimes quoted which would suggest that the beginnings of such a change could be traced to the 2 c. B.C…. With one problematic exception the first clear evidence for a fricative pronunciation comes from the 1 c. A.D. in Pompeian spellings such as Dafne (= Δάφνη)… From the 2 c. A.D. the representation of φ by Latin f becomes common, and Latin grammarians have to give rules when to spell with f and when with ph… It may be that a scholarly pronunciation of φ, θ, χ as plosives continued for some time in the schools… There is even possibly some evidence that the plosive pronunciation continued in the schools up to the time when the Glagolitic alphabet was formed in the 9 c. for the writing of Old Church Slavonic.
Hardly appropriate for this mod.

[L'Impresario]

Actually read up on when those changes start taking place instead of trying to pretend like since Alexander dies, that means the Hellenistic period beings, and thus koine (which becomes more common in that period) would start in 323. To put it even more simply: in 272 kings and generals aren't speaking New Testament koine.

I don't think I'm referring to such an interpretation...It's an easy thing to say though - I'm merely stating facts, not mentioned even fleetingly the New Testament heh
Ofcourse not all changes happened spontaneously, languages aren't made by decree. I don't know why you should have φ, θ, χ instead of τh, πh, κh. But sticking to the Attic dialect can't be characterised accurate as well.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

If someone has any specific changes that had occurred by 272, please let us know.

Also, none of it probably matters anyway, as no one with the patience and equipment to record all of them and the ability to act the voice out well for the files has volunteered as far as I know.

[O'ETAIPOS]

And BDW wasnt Attic dialect official one on Macedon court(during Philip and Alexander regin)?

[Laundreu]

If someone has any specific changes that had occurred by 272, please let us know.

Also, none of it probably matters anyway, as no one with the patience and equipment to record all of them and the ability to act the voice out well for the files has volunteered as far as I know.

What equipment is needed? I'm starting up learning Attic Greek in college, perhaps I can give a go or summat.

My accent would be terrible, mind.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Shigawire would be very happy if you happened to be a non-English native speaker then. It would be much more difficult if you are, but not impossible. It would probably be best to mention what your native language is first.

[Laundreu]

Shigawire would be very happy if you happened to be a non-English native speaker then. It would be much more difficult if you are, but not impossible. It would probably be best to mention what your native language is first.

Ah; I'm a native English speaker. Well, native American English speaker.

[abou]

...especially since there are reliefs of hetairoi from alexander's time! say, on the alexander sarcophagus, you get rather nice-looking, detailed, and contemporary shots of Alexander and his cavalry.
Not to bring this thread back from the dead, but is this (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Macedonian_Army_Thessalian.jpg) the specific relief you mentioned? Are there others that are better and if so how do I get access to them? Finally, what about representations of Hetairoi in later times (such as the EB ones and the illustration in John Warry's book)?