View Full Version : Adoption vs abortion
doc_bean
09-11-2006, 11:22
A while ago it said in the paper that in belgium 1 in 8 pregnancies end in abortion (and I've read we actually have a rather low abortion rate) and it got me wondering, why don't more people consider giving up their child for adoption ?
I mean, consider the situation where you are in your early twenties and you knock your girlfriend up. A pretty common thing to happen in the world. Now for most people they'd just think about whether or not they'd keep the baby. giving it up for adoption doesn't cross 99% of the people's mind.
Why is this ? Why is there such a bias against giving away a child for adoption whilst it is considered perfectly acceptable (for a lot of people) to have an abortion ?
Now in Belgium you can only get abortions during the first trimester, but we're an exception in doing this, I'm led to believe. If people consider late 2nd trimester or even 3rd trimester abortions, why don't they just sit it out for a few months and then give the kid away ? Certainly partial birth abortion seem crazy if you consider adoption as a possible alternative.
Of course, it isn't just the people involved themselves that are the issue. Society as a whole really seems to look down on giving up your kid for adoption. Do you know anyone that did it ? Chances are you know somebody who's had an abortion. Perhaps this is what makes (early) abortions so appealing, your community doesn't need to know you got knocked up in the first place. Perhaps if we, as a society were just a little more accepting of people getting pregnant unexpectedly and giving up their child we'd have a whole lot less abortions ?
Most abortions are made to avoid difficult situations, it's just wrong. Especially when you consider that there are waiting lists of years for people that want to take care of these kids. I will just call it murder.
But imagine if every unwanted child were put up for adoption. There would be a LOT of children and not enough parents.
But imagine if every unwanted child were put up for adoption. There would be a LOT of children and not enough parents.
Enough parents to make the african human trafficing a flourishing market.
doc_bean
09-11-2006, 11:41
Even if there aren't enough parents willing to raise those kids. Having more kids could be beneficial enough for a Western European to warrant decent investment by the state in orphanages. We're going extinct here !
I believe the average amount of children per woman is about 1.6 here, so the increase in births could increase this to 1.8, which still isn't enough to stay even, but might makes things a lot easier in the future...
New Zealand is the same, our population gets bolstered more from immigration than birth rates. We just reached our landmark population of 4 million this year (or last year, I forget) and don't we feel special.
macsen rufus
09-11-2006, 12:34
I'd like to put the boot on the other foot : why do so many people choose IVF etc instead of adoption?
I guess so that they actually ARE related to their child. One of my science teachers holds the view that the main objective in life is to pass on your genes (he's a biologist) and in a way it sort of is.
macsen rufus
09-11-2006, 14:22
With so many kids languishing in orphanages, State or local authority "care" etc already, it's clear there are not enough potential "parents" to adopt them all.
Biologically speaking, there's probably a reason behind infertility, too. (I read somewhere that homosexuality and infertility both increase in overcrowded conditions, but have lost the reference). I don't believe it's something an overcrowded world should be pumping resources and heroic medical intervention into. If people are losing fertility because they "wanted a career and left it too late", well, sorry, but decisions have consequences. The world no more owes you a family than it does a living. Loads of kids already out there need loving homes.
But to doc_bean's original post -- I think you're right to suggest that it's the pregnancy people don't want rather than the child itself. And yes, it's also true I know more people who've had abortions than have given up kids for adoption, but only just (3 vs 2!) But your example of the 20-somethings - come on, they're playing at being grown up. No excuse. Younger teenagers, who are so hooked into peer-group garbage beliefs about sex need better education and protection (though at that age you can't tell them anything anyway....)
Gawain of Orkeny
09-11-2006, 15:29
With so many kids languishing in orphanages, State or local authority "care" etc already, it's clear there are not enough potential "parents" to adopt them all.
Theres a big difference between children in an orphanage and new born babies. You wont find any babies in an orphanage. In fact theres waiting lines for them and people willing to pay a very good price for them.
In my opinion, abortion is an act of selfishness. It's about not wanting to take your responsabilities.
Oh, we made love without a condom, but oh, now I'm pregnant. The boyfriend runs away, frightened, because "it" will interfere with his future plans, the girl wants to get rid of the "problem" because it will interfere with her future plans.
Giving birth to the child doesn't come up in their selfish minds. Get rid of it as soon as possible. The parents often encourage them.
They prefer "it" to disappear quickly before someone notices the pregnancy, the "disgrace".
Sad, sad world :no:
maybe im just a bit bloody-minded, but i'v never reguarded abortion as wrong - i would however agree that adoption is a better option
rory_20_uk
09-11-2006, 16:55
1 in 3 pregnancies ends in miscarriage in any case.
Giving birth tears a lot of structures. Probably best to not bother if you've already decided you don't want a child in any case.
~:smoking:
Well, adoption's not very metal...
I'd like to put the boot on the other foot : why do so many people choose IVF etc instead of adoption?
Im sure part of it is that there are so few babies available for adoption.
Giving birth tears a lot of structures. Probably best to not bother if you've already decided you don't want a child in any case.Its not as those abortion is entirely risk free either.
I mean, consider the situation where you are in your early twenties and you knock your girlfriend up. A pretty common thing to happen in the world. Now for most people they'd just think about whether or not they'd keep the baby. giving it up for adoption doesn't cross 99% of the people's mind.
Why is this ? Why is there such a bias against giving away a child for adoption whilst it is considered perfectly acceptable (for a lot of people) to have an abortion ?I think at least part of it is simple selfishness. People have sex irresponsibly and then dont want to deal with any of the consequences afterwards and want to forget about their indescretions as soon as possible. Its much easier just to make it "go away" without having too see the results of their actions.
yesdachi
09-11-2006, 19:42
In my opinion, abortion is an act of selfishness. It's about not wanting to take your responsabilities.
People do selfish things all the time, but there is a substantial difference between wanting the responsibility of having a child and, say a puppy. You can have a puppy and still live a normal life but a baby changes everything and it is often easier, socially, physically, mentally and financially to have the abortion and try to put your mistakes behind you then to try and carry them for 9 months and grow attached to the baby inside you while letting everyone know about the pregnancy and having it effect your school, job, health, future.
I am not encouraging abortion (I am pro-choice) but there are definitely people that shouldn’t have children and many adoption/orphanages are messed up! If a child doesn’t get adopted as a young baby the chances of adoption reduce exponentially as the child ages or if it were born with a defect or any “issues” that baby is going to be a permanent child of the state.
If there are people out there that want children soooo bad let them adopt one of the millions that are currently looking for a family, rather than holding out for the perfect one to be born. Who is the selfish one again?
I would be curious to find out the racial stats of children put up for adoption and what race is adopting. I would bet race is a significant factor in the adoption decision. It would also be interesting to see who racially is getting abortions that would be available for adoption if not aborted.
rory_20_uk
09-11-2006, 19:50
True, abortion is not risk free, but it comes very close.
Pharmaceutical abortions have a risk of less than 1 in 1,000. Take about 3 pills, and job done. If not repeat up to twice.
Surgical ones are comparatively risky. But since we do a similar proceedure to women who are having miscarriages to reduce their risks, intervention is safer than nature in many cases.
Abortions are there as people are selfish. So we "punish" them by forcing them to have a child? The number of problems that it would store for the future is legion.
Is it really an issue that people might want to adopt children that they think will have a good chance as bieng passed off as their own? A white couple with a coloured kid. Do you have to explain to everyone (as well as the kid's friends) blow by blow how they were adopted, and no the wife didn't run off and have an affair. What if the child doesn't want everone to know that his/her real parents didn't want them?
~:smoking:
I'd like to put the boot on the other foot : why do so many people choose IVF etc instead of adoption?
Because the urge to procreate and pass one's genes on into the next generation is the raison d'etre for all life on this planet. When it comes down to the nitty Darwinian gritty absolutely nothing else matters. Foregoing reproduction altogether and adopting someone else's offpspring or hindering and/or affecting the growth of one's offspring as a by-product of taking care of someone else's offspring is and always shall be a practice of a small minority.
AntiochusIII
09-12-2006, 00:14
Because the urge to procreate and pass one's genes on into the next generation is the raison d'etre for all life on this planet. When it comes down to the nitty Darwinian gritty absolutely nothing else matters. Foregoing reproduction altogether and adopting someone else's offpspring or hindering and/or affecting the growth of one's offspring as a by-product of taking care of someone else's offspring is and always shall be a practice of a small minority.Eh, not mine. I think I have transcended for believing honestly that all I care about in life is to live. Gods and hells be damned. They'll never have me if I'm staying here on Earth. ~;)
Enough parents to make the african human trafficing a flourishing market.It's just a generalization, but, do you really think that those willing to engage in such "trades" will make good parents?
doc_bean
09-12-2006, 09:09
Is it really an issue that people might want to adopt children that they think will have a good chance as bieng passed off as their own? A white couple with a coloured kid. Do you have to explain to everyone (as well as the kid's friends) blow by blow how they were adopted, and no the wife didn't run off and have an affair. What if the child doesn't want everone to know that his/her real parents didn't want them?
I agree, if you want to adopt a baby there's a good chance you'd want one you can at least pass off as your own at first glance. That way it's not a constant reminder to parents and child that it is not really theirs.
Eh, not mine. I think I have transcended for believing honestly that all I care about in life is to live. Gods and hells be damned. They'll never have me if I'm staying here on Earth.
How old are you ? I know many people who HATED kids when they were teenagers/early twentiers and then suddenly changed their mind and said 'they wouldn't mind' and a little later 'they want' children. I know people that have had such a fase in their 30s too.
Abortions are there as people are selfish. So we "punish" them by forcing them to have a child? The number of problems that it would store for the future is legion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still pro-choice (1st trimester anyway), I don't intend to force anyone to do anything. I was merely wondering WHY adoption is seen as so much worse than abortion by the individual, especially knowing how controversial abortion tends to be. It seemed odd to me that adoption appears even more controversial.
macsen rufus
09-12-2006, 10:32
Abortion / adoption / have kids / have no kids -- it doesn't really matter what the decision, in 99% of cases it's for selfish reasons. It's not like any option has the monopoly on selfishness.
Banquo's Ghost
09-12-2006, 11:49
Abortion / adoption / have kids / have no kids -- it doesn't really matter what the decision, in 99% of cases it's for selfish reasons. It's not like any option has the monopoly on selfishness.
Well, we have Selfish Genes (http://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Popular-Science/dp/0192860925). :bounce:
Abortion / adoption / have kids / have no kids -- it doesn't really matter what the decision, in 99% of cases it's for selfish reasons. It's not like any option has the monopoly on selfishness.
All of those things can be put down to selfishness. Woman have babies because they want them. Other women don't have babies because they don't want them. When you give a few pounds to a beggar on the street, why do you do it? To help them? Pity? Or is it to feel good? The buzz it gives you, knowing you can do that, to show off in front of your girlfriend. How many of our acts are selfish? I'd say 99% of them.
The anti abortion and pro abortion issue is one that has been flogged to death. With the time old arguments worked over again and again.
The main issue I have with abortion, is that it is often the result of a woman placed in such as position where she believes that abortion is her only viable option. As doc_bean touched upon earlier, it is society's attitude towards illegitimate pregnancies, and the reasons behind adoption and abortion that need to be challenged. The pressure to keep "the problem" secret is often the primary cause for the abortion, especially regarding teenage girls.
Also it is the pressure of society that is causing older women, often in stable relationships, to have abortions in order to safeguard their careers. These are the same type of women that are putting off having children until, in some cases, their late thirties or early forties. Also when some of these women find that they can no longer have children for medical reasons, it is these women that are looking into adoption or IVF treatment.
The problem with the mother of an unwanted baby going through the full term of pregnancy, and then putting the child up for adoption, is maternal instinct. Once the child is born the mother will often be reluctant to give it up.
With regard to baby trafficing, yes it is a massive industry and there is a sadly a big demand. Personally I couldn't bring myself to adopt someone elses stolen/bought offspring but there are those that do. Two years ago when I lived in Perú I did hear about, and witness, the baby theft that occurs in the Childrens Hospital in Lima. The thieves are usually always women, but they operate as part of trafficing gangs smuggling the babies into the US, Europe and elsewhere. On one occasion I heard constant announcements over the tannoy about a missing child, then later saw a woman pinned down by police and arrested.
Adoption and abortion could be said to be contributing to the growth of this kind of trafficing.
King Henry V
09-12-2006, 18:28
Abortion / adoption / have kids / have no kids -- it doesn't really matter what the decision, in 99% of cases it's for selfish reasons. It's not like any option has the monopoly on selfishness.
However, in one case something is actually done for the child's benefit, whereas in the other, the child is just flushed down the pan.
It's just a generalization, but, do you really think that those willing to engage in such "trades" will make good parents?
It just shows how desperate these people are to have a child. We shouldn't work against people that want to do so, so abortion should only be a possibility in the most extreme cases. If they are woman enough to get knocked up they should be able to cope with these 9 months.
If they are woman enough to get knocked up they should be able to cope with these 9 months.
Hahaha, that's the most bogus thing I've heard this week.
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