View Full Version : Bioshock non-gameplay discussion
I'll put one behind a spoiler tag because it's quite graphic, sickening in fact. I like.
BIG FAT PG WARNING
http://i.i.com.com/cnet.g2/images/2006/254/924919_20060912_screen001.jpg
http://i.i.com.com/cnet.g2/images/2006/254/924919_20060912_screen002.jpg
That is the most horrific blood I have ever seen, and these enemies are just wrong, yuk disgusting. I am so hyped up about this game that if someone gave me a job as cortex reaver I wouldn't hesitate to take it.
It looks like great fun! When is it released?
It looks like great fun! When is it released?
Hold it soldier, this is the spiritual successor of what many consider the greatest gameseries ever made, the System Shock series, work on your hyperbole. If you have no idea what I am talking about you are one of the lucky few who have not played the miracle that is System Shock 2 and thus can still do so.
Nope, I have never played it and never even heard of it, nor seen it in any stores. Maybe it hasn't come out this way, or the local games stores are just useless and have hardly any games (which is the more likely one)
It sort of looks like FEAR to me.
I think I will start looking around though. :2thumbsup:
Sir Moody
09-13-2006, 12:32
... how can anyone not of heard of System shock 2 and Shodan - i was unfortunate to miss the first but number 2 was (and still is) one of the best horror shooters around - Shodan was just the most evil and yet plausable villian
i have high hopes for bioshock they seem to have all the right ingrediants - Freaky enemies, a devestated enviroment and a strongly evil Badguy.
they even have the story right :laugh4: System shock was how our technology could be turned against Humanity (well that was the story behind shodan anyway) Bioshock seems to focus around how Biology could be turned around to be used against humantity
Yummy pics! Can't wait for this one. :2thumbsup: Got sooooo many good games coming out soon, I need to get cracking on building a new machine.
:jawdrop:
Pray with me brothers!
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
Pleasedonotletthisgamesuck
The blood on the second screenshot looks like plastic.:inquisitive:
Syxx_Killer
09-13-2006, 16:33
Those graphics looks awesome. Zombie blasting never looked so good! :laugh4:
screwtype
09-13-2006, 16:34
Oh yuck that screenshot is disgusting!
A little blood can enhance the game experience but that is total overkill!
discovery1
09-13-2006, 16:41
There is no way my laptop can run it ~:mecry:
Ironside
09-13-2006, 17:15
they even have the story right :laugh4: System shock was how our technology could be turned against Humanity (well that was the story behind shodan anyway) Bioshock seems to focus around how Biology could be turned around to be used against humantity
I'm wondering why they keep pushing for that "totally free capitalism can turn against you" theme in the inteviews. Feels somewhat wrong considering what you know this far, but it might be better explained in the game.
Those graphics looks awesome. Zombie blasting never looked so good! :laugh4:
This ain't no zombie blasting mia muca, this is going to be an adventure game with rpg elements and a lot of sneaking, unless you like to blast mutants of course.
Hmm, testing moral boundries (shooting of small children)? Check. Awesome graphics? Check. Original setting? Check. Made by the good chaps behind System Shock 2? Check.
I want now!
Zalmoxis
09-14-2006, 05:48
That's the best blood graphic I've seen...too bad my computer will never be able to run this game.
doc_bean
09-14-2006, 11:29
I shall purchase a new computer for this game !
Mount Suribachi
09-15-2006, 17:07
Thing is, fancy graphics are nice and all, but it wasn't the graphics that scared you senseless in SS2, it was the sound & atmosphere. Scared me so much I couldn't even finish the demo.
Kekvit Irae
09-15-2006, 18:14
Looks like Doom 3. :annoyedg: Sorry, I'll stick with System Shock 2.
Well, the two screenshots here are perhaps the most visceral, shocking ones. But there are other, slightly older ones of the little sisters etc that are very intriguing:
http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/action/bioshock/screenindex.html?sid=6157475&q=Bioshock
Coupled with what the developers have said about the game, it does look very promising.
Mikeus Caesar
09-15-2006, 18:29
I'm sorry, but the blood effects squirting out of that guy are just fugly, and the blood on the wall behind him looks horribly fake.
Apart from that, looks absolutely brilliant!
Ironside
09-15-2006, 19:11
Looks like Doom 3. :annoyedg: Sorry, I'll stick with System Shock 2.
Well, Doom 3 had been more scary if they were less predictable, better darkness (too much of it, ability of gun + flashlight at the same time is better then to switch, I used the muzzle flash to see), and the hunted feeling.
Besides, SS2 was scary because of the sounds, lack of "gun safety feeling" (gives the feeling of being hunted and/or very fragile), the logs (Doom's were hard to hear and only the audio-logs were freaky and only few of them), the gosts, the story, etc (didn't find SHODAN that scary, but she's a very cool character and certainly discomforting).
It's hard to get that through screens.
Image SS2 with Doom 3 graphics anyway :hide: :eeeek:
"Kill me!!"
Monkey chatter...
The blood on the wall looks like paint, but I'm note sure how a thick dried layer of blood looks like.
The Spartan (Returns)
09-16-2006, 22:53
that blood looks funny.
im sure people have seen blood before. why dont they just make blood look like that?!
Nice screenshots although the blood looks like claymation. They should 86 the claymation-esque blood and make it look real.
I wouldnt make too many judgements about how the blood looks based one a single screen shot. Until you see it in motion, it's going to be tough to say how it really looks.
Looks like Doom 3. :annoyedg: Sorry, I'll stick with System Shock 2.
That is one way to do the graphics don't matter thing. System shock 2 was brilliant despite a dated engine, no way good graphics could have hurt it.
screwtype
09-19-2006, 11:46
Well, the two screenshots here are perhaps the most visceral, shocking ones. But there are other, slightly older ones of the little sisters etc that are very intriguing:
http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/action/bioshock/screenindex.html?sid=6157475&q=Bioshock
Coupled with what the developers have said about the game, it does look very promising.
Yes, apart from that one disgusting screenshot, the rest look pretty interesting and I must say I like the original storyline - you could probably do an SF book with a theme like that.
But a shooter - I don't care how good the graphics are, I just don't think I could face another one...
But a shooter - I don't care how good the graphics are, I just don't think I could face another one...
I don't really play shooters. I recently tried Call of Duty and while it is well done, I just can't get past the first few levels - the shooting is too frenetic, intense and repetitive, it does not appeal. But I never thought System Shock 2 was a "shooter" - I guess because I never shot anything until towards the end. I spent most of the time hiding behind round corners with a wrench, to hoard ammo.
I think of SS2 more as an "experience". It was the sounds of the enemies roaming around and the logs telling the backstory that stood out. If Bioshock is like that, as I expect, I'll be delighted. I was very pleased, for example, to learn that the intimidating looking "big daddies" and the little sisters are not hostile to the player by default - you have to provoke them before they attack.
screwtype
09-19-2006, 16:08
I think of SS2 more as an "experience". It was the sounds of the enemies roaming around and the logs telling the backstory that stood out. If Bioshock is like that, as I expect, I'll be delighted. I was very pleased, for example, to learn that the intimidating looking "big daddies" and the little sisters are not hostile to the player by default - you have to provoke them before they attack.
Yes, I've gathered that from what people have previously said about the game. But my reading of the interview with Irrational is that Bioshock will be more of a traditional shooter than the previous games. On the other hand, he did say there will be alternative strategies, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.
I just saw a completely new Bioshock video where a developer plays the game and comments on many things. It was a pretty interesting video which can be downloaded here (http://www.4players.de/4players.php/download_info/PC-CDROM/Download/45546.html).
I have to say the video was pretty interesting, the guy shows how one can interact with the world, some locations and the use of different ammunition types and genetic material.:2thumbsup:
good find! So much awesome, this is going to be so scary!
Excellent video! I especially love how all the creatures in the game world operate according to dynamic AI and do not rely on scripting! Looks positively gorgeous in action too, I shudder to think what the system requirements will be. :uneasy:
I wouldn't worry too much about the developer's emphasis on the word 'fps' or 'shooter', I think they're simply trying very hard not to alienate the fps crowd by presenting Bioshock as being purely a sci-fi crpg game. Given Irrational's track record I seriously doubt Bioshock is going to be lacking in the depth department.
Speaking of System Shock, apparently there is some really bad blood between Irrational and EA over the fate of that series...
http://digitalbattle.com/2006/08/01/bioshock-dev-pissed-at-ea/
BioShock Dev Pissed At EA
August 1st, 2006 by Armin Siljkovic in Action, Adventure, Xbox360, PC, Rumor, Multiplayer
Irrational Games, developer of BioShock had a few things going on with EA in the past. Company boss Ken Levine says the reason there were no plans for System Shock 3 was because, as he puts it, “EA just didn’t give a **** about that game”.
Apparently Levine had it all worked out for System Shock 3, a story design, concept etc. He says:
“I think if EA were to do it, it would’ve been just a regular first-person shooter with a boss monster at the end.”
According to Levine, EA didn’t see System Shock as a big brand, and didn’t give it much attention. Their new publisher, 2K Games did see the potential in the series,
“We have a publisher who cares about this game, and they believe in this kind of game. 2K Games is the company that helped reinvigorate Elder Scrolls and Civilization. They believe in core games.”
Wow, EA letting a stellar property rot on the vine? What a shock! :wall:
Well maybe it's all for the best then that there is no System Shock 3. But I thought nobody owned the rights to System Shock 2 and it was legal to download? God why out of all companies EA, should have dealt with Ubisoft or other much more sympathatic publishers.
Ironside
09-22-2006, 20:01
That video is really starting to get my hopes up.
Creepy environment? Check
Disturbing environment? Check
Creepy sounds? Check (sadly he did ramble a bit too much to hear what that splicer was mumbling about in the last scene).
Ammo being scarce? Check
Daul AP ammo ~;p ? Check
Mad AI... uh singer? Check (we'll see if he can rival SHODAN, although certainly not in the same way)
The splicers seemed nasty enough to make your fear for an encounter with them, wich is good (in this case ~;p ). Only gotten that feeling in AvP2 as a marine and SS2, although in both games that feeeling started to drop about halfway through.
We do need our trusty wrench though. :2thumbsup:
That video is really starting to get my hopes up.
Yes, it showed that the E3 interviews and the screenshots certainly weren't lying.
I think the game does look rather less absolutely terrifying than System Shock 2 - the splicers don't have the bowel loosening quality of the hybrids or cyber-midwives. And maybe the premise/story is less good, who knows? But I certainly recognised enough of the core elements of SS2 in it to make this my most anticipated game at the moment (sorry, M2TW).
Ironside
09-29-2006, 08:34
We do need our trusty wrench though. :2thumbsup:
And we got our trusty wrench :2thumbsup:
http://www.gamespot.com/events/x06/story.html?sid=6158963&pid=931329&tag=topslot;action;1
Seems that they weren't kidding when they said that the big daddies are strong.
Sir Moody
09-29-2006, 11:43
"Look Mr Bubbles Adam!"
that line alone had me hooked :inquisitive: great video really looks like theyve recreated the SS2 atmosphere
"Look Mr Bubbles Adam!"
There's no way I am going to harm a little sister - I assumed from the freaky screenshots that they would be some kind of perverted cybermidwife type creature. But they sound so human, interfering with them would seem like child abuse. Especially when she crawls back into the damp sewer thing and says how cold it is. I wonder what the implications of a "pacifist" approach will be - how seriously will you be disadvantaged without their Adam?
There's no way I am going to harm a little sister - I assumed from the freaky screenshots that they would be some kind of perverted cybermidwife type creature. But they sound so human, interfering with them would seem like child abuse. Especially when she crawls back into the damp sewer thing and says how cold it is. I wonder what the implications of a "pacifist" approach will be - how seriously will you be disadvantaged without their Adam?
Speak for yourself. Little sisters hold the Adam and the Adams is the precious. Me waaannnts the preciousssssss... :laugh4:
Seriously now, just because it looks like a little girl, acts like a little girl and sounds like a little girl doesn't mean it's a little girl. I dunno, call me strange but the idea of fragging cute female mutants dressed in summer frocks and pigtails who wield huge syringes for the sole purpose of draining and consuming my precious bodily fluids so as to get at some mutagenic compound called 'Adam' doesn't sway my moral compass.
Anyway, based on the recently released trailer I love the immediate visual effect Adam has those who take it (Little Sisters excepted).
Samurai Waki
09-29-2006, 19:46
Theres something about RPGs, that if I'm ever given the opportunity to be absolutely evil beyond imagination, I do it. I don't know why, because I'm not an evil person by nature. KOTOR 1 and 2 were both good examples, my characters always seem to become extremely evil. And in Neverwinter Nights, my Character was so evil, I actually halted the story line mid-way, because I killed a Character I wasn't supposed to.
Theres something about RPGs, that if I'm ever given the opportunity to be absolutely evil beyond imagination, I do it. I don't know why, because I'm not an evil person by nature. KOTOR 1 and 2 were both good examples, my characters always seem to become extremely evil. And in Neverwinter Nights, my Character was so evil, I actually halted the story line mid-way, because I killed a Character I wasn't supposed to.
Interesting. When I play rpgs I usually opt for the most neutral position possible with a lean towards the Neutral-Good alignment (to invoke an AD&D term). I generally despise being forced to take a path which leads to the stereotypical archetype of a 'good' or 'evil' person. But what I really loathe are games that claim you can choose your own moral and ethical path but penalize you for pursuing anything but the goody-two shoes path to pink-fluffy goodness. :angry:
As in real life I prefer my fantasy worlds filled with moral shades of gray. About the only time I lean heavily towards one alignment or the other is if the payoff (read as items, reputation or cool cutscenes) is more substantial for doing so. Oddly enough this self serving pragmatism which governs my rpg playstyle still places me in Neutral-Evil territory.
Thread necromancy, but there is a Gamespot hands-on preview of Bioshock up:
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/bioshock/news.html?sid=6172135&om_act=convert&om_clk=multimodule&tag=multimodule;picks;title;1
It is looking good - ie System Shock 3 in all but name.
And it's good to know you can rescue the little sisters. Those big daddies had better watch out. :boxing:
Sorry Fragony, when it comes to Thief, I must agree with you that it is one of the greatest games ever, but System Shock I was not very impressed with. It seemed a little boring and repetitive. Also, too unrealistic. It was ok, just not my favorite. Bioshock on the other hand, I think looks downright pitifull. It looks to me like a cheap carnival horror game. Is it being made by the same team that made SS2 and Thief2? I think that is the only thing that would ever convince me to buy it. :P
Didn't mean to be too harse on it, the graphics look evolved. :)
The only horror game I have ever played that I really like and that actually scared me was Doom 3. I LOVED that game and was dying to see what happened and voting for "damage" and "control" through the whole game, then the ending came... :thumbsdown:
That really :skull: the game and all the plot that had built up so far.
So yeah, I guess that means that I have never played a horror game that I liked, so if you like horror games, I guess you can discount my opinion. :P
(Though I LOVED the Doom movie :beam:)
Vuk
darkragnar
06-10-2007, 09:44
If i may ,id like to Point you to Helios's Circus Maximus Article , ive written About Bioshock in it and it has the Trailer for you to watch..plus a bit on the Background of the world which i must say is absolutely Stunning.
finally they are releasing a Game that craves to your intellectual side as well.
Scroll Down to Circus Maximus to see it.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1826556&postcount=1
Sorry Fragony, when it comes to Thief, I must agree with you that it is one of the greatest games ever, but System Shock I was not very impressed with. It seemed a little boring and repetitive. Also, too unrealistic. It was ok, just not my favorite.
How far did you get? No way you can like Thief and dislike System Shock. But it is what you said. Maybe you weren't in the mood, try again :yes:
Don Corleone
06-12-2007, 22:01
I'm confused. Is Bioshock coming out on PC at the same time as the Xbox?
Ironside
06-13-2007, 08:55
I'm confused. Is Bioshock coming out on PC at the same time as the Xbox?
Yep, both versions is announced to come out 21 August, according to gamespot.
It will be difficult for a game to beat FEAR in my mind as the best horror/shooter out there. Doom 3 was just a joke in terms of horror; a bunch of cheap "oh no, a monster popped out" tricks.
It will be difficult for a game to beat FEAR in my mind as the best horror/shooter out there. Doom 3 was just a joke in terms of horror; a bunch of cheap "oh no, a monster popped out" tricks.
FEAR is pretty straightforward imho, bit of shooting and creepy story sequence, got a bit old towards the end. Still heaps of fun because of the insane ai and creepy atmosphere, couldn't stop playing. They should have dehumanised the enemies, an army of cloned supersoldiers with a psychic commander just should have been cooler then it is now. Should have implemented mind tricks, it's a bit like condemned. What is there is good but should have been much much better.
ps, The Suffering is an excellent horror-shooter, you might like it.
May try System Shock again some time. It may just be that I really don't go for the whole space thing. :P (Doom 3 being the only exception...till the ending :P)
Lehesu, I don't know how you can say that. Fear is one of the only big horror shooters I haven't played, and Doom3 is the only one that ever frightened me (yes, Vuk is confessing to being frightened) or really drew me in. The Movie was one of the best I'd ever seen. :P
Fragony, please don't be offended by my comments, it is just my opinion. :P
lol,
Vuk
Doom was certainly the best movie-of-a-game which I have seen.
Both the game and the film though lacked interest, and so for me were not frightening. It failed to engage me enough to make me that tense to be honest. Just like every "horror" movie I've ever watched.
System Shock 2 however had enough story and character to get me involved and so care about what was happening. The game balance, especially for the first half, also made me feel extremely vulnerable. The second half was much easier, but by then I was hooked anyway.
I really hope that Bioshock doesn't prove to be a let down, it has so many interesting features. But a number of games recently have, IMO, fallen short of what they could have been. Maybe I'm getting fussy.
They seeee you! Run, ruuun!
doc_bean
06-19-2007, 13:25
Bioshock special abilities movies (http://blogs.ign.com/Irrational_Games/2007/06/18/57742/)
Marshal Murat
06-19-2007, 23:46
I love the entire game concept and all.
KOTOR made me feel sad.
I wanted to accomplish the game with a good feeling (good side).
I also wanted to wield the Sith powers (bad).
Time to bump this thread up from the grave since the game is about to be released.
And can point that there is a demo out on the Xbox marketplace for you all to enjoy it.
*downloading now but it's taking forever*
I will make another post so that people can see that it's updated
Anyway, finished the demo.
Pretty short but it gives you a tease of what's to come and I must say, fricking awesome.
First controls:
It's pretty simple controls, the standard Xbox controls for a fps.
Right triggers shots the weapons and left triggers uses your powers.
It's feels just like it should.
Graphics: This game is just stunning to look at.
The levels, the water, the fire etc looks great.
Also it very smooth, didn't notice any stuttering while playing.
The enemies looks cool as well. The big daddy is one of the coolest things I have seen in a game.
The light is very fitting considering your location and adds to the mood.
Sound:
The sound is top-notch not to mention creepy as hell.
It reminds me alot of SS2.
The sweet lullaby sung by the little sister is just pretty while at the same time creepy.
Gameplay:
You can only enjoy some of it but it already makes me hunger for more.
It works just like they said it would. If a enemy is standing in a pool of water then just sap it with a lightning bolt and watch him fry.
I can see great things in this.
You can pick up items lying around. Things like food, drinks(yes you can get drunk) and medpacks and other things useful.
You can also find money(which you didn't get a chance to use in the demo) and 2 soundtapes that features recordings of people living in the city that gives you a hint to what has happened.
One particular recording gave me goosebumps.
You never get the chance to fight a big daddy but you do see him in action and it put a nice smile on my face when I saw it because it was so cool.
As stated before, the game is creepy just like they promised it would be.
I was really sad when the demo ended. I really didn't want it to end.
But the game will come out the 24th and that day will be great.
Owww god, why did the bloody thing had to die now :wall: :wall: :wall:
I should be playing demo in an hour. But xbox360 did what xbxox360 does :no:
Well, why is there no PC demo? :inquisitive:
Never heard of Bioshock until now and the previous one. How well does the second one run on say a ATI Radeon 9200? Every game made after FEAR, including some of the new RTS' don't even run as demos on it :no: .
Second is almost 10 years old should work fine, may want to make a hard-drive partition because it doesn't really work well with XP. Can't buy the second anymore, if you want to download it PM me, can't link it because of rules, not legal or illegal, grey area thingie.
It's almost 10 years old should work fine, may want to make a hard-drive partition because it doesn't really work well with XP. Can't buy the second anymore, if you want to download it PM me, can't link it because of rules, not legal or illegal, grey area thingie.
Nah it's cool. Fileplanet won't even let me down load the demo it so I figure I'd just have to wait for Bio2 and a new rig or maybe a 360 but games are always better on the comp.
Well, why is there no PC demo? :inquisitive:
Because they like Xbox more ?? :clown:
You can download the official artbook (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/artbook.html) now, some of the paintings look quite scary.
Well, why is there no PC demo? :inquisitive:
http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html
WHAT ABOUT A BIOSHOCK PC DEMO?
August 13, 2007
After the appearance of the BioShock Demo on Xbox 360™ last night, I’m sure many of you PC fans wondered, “What about us?”
Here’s the deal.
A BioShock PC Demo IS coming. We tried as hard as humanly possible to get it out to you guys simultaneously with the 360 demo, but we needed to make sure that it was perfect -- that all drivers were ready, and that the game looked great on a huge variety of computers.
Currently, the PC demo in its final stages of testing and approval. We are pushing to get it out to you as soon as possible. It will be out during the month of August, and everyone is working at full capacity to deliver it to you before the game hits store shelves on August 21st. I will also let you know as soon as I have an exact date for the demo's release, so please stay tuned.
I cannot express enough how sorry I am for the wait. Thank you for understanding and your patience. Just remember -- only eight days left till you get your hands on the full game.
I’ll let you know where to get the demo as soon as it becomes available.
Well first reviews are on, word is that it's good, very good. 9,5 pc gamer UK and a 10/10 in some other magazine.
Penny Arcade's take on the demo (http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070814.jpg). Warning: contains three naughty words. But very funny, as usual.
-edit-
P.S.: Seems the game has hit stores early (http://the7gamers.com/2007/08/14/bioshock-early-release/). Some people are reporting finding it at Toys R Us, no word on whether places like GameStop have dropped the hammer.
-edit of the edit-
Hmm, or maybe not ... (http://www.gamernode.com/News/3694-Bioshock-is-NOT-being-released-early/index.html)
A well-written, spoiler-free review (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/pc/game/reviews/article.jsp?articleId=2007081595653768046§ionId=1000&releaseId=20060426172718471012) of Bioshock. I am now officially stoked for this game. To anyone who get the game today from Toys R Us: I hate you.
doc_bean
08-16-2007, 09:14
I don't know, from the reviews I feel like it's going to be ' just another' FPS, albeit a really good one. I'll await the orgah's opinions (and/or demo).
I don't know, from the reviews I feel like it's going to be ' just another' FPS, albeit a really good one. I'll await the orgah's opinions (and/or demo).
I got a similar impression, it seems like the "freedom" they mentioned is limited to having many ways to kill enemies by using them against one another. I will try the demo, but it doesn't sound as promising anymore as it did some time ago.
A well-written, spoiler-free review (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/pc/game/reviews/article.jsp?articleId=2007081595653768046§ionId=1000&releaseId=20060426172718471012) of Bioshock. I am now officially stoked for this game. To anyone who get the game today from Toys R Us: I hate you.
Excellent review - I've bookmarked the site, in case its other reviews are of the same quality.
One dumb question: the conclusion says the game succeeds in three areas, one of which is "narrative", another is "emergence". What does it mean by "emergence"?
frogbeastegg
08-16-2007, 13:58
There's another good review here (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=81479). Quite a long one too.
I want that PC demo! :impatient froggy: I have been studiously ignoring this game, preferring to be pleasantly surprised than let down. Now it's sounding like it may well be the spiritual sucessor to System Shock 2.
Leet Eriksson
08-16-2007, 14:45
The demo is really linear, i'm kinda worried that the developers would not deliver in the open gameplay element that was present in system shock 2, but i think its some consolation if the game is well made and polished because from what i experienced in the demo it was an amazing romp.
Zenicetus
08-16-2007, 18:05
One dumb question: the conclusion says the game succeeds in three areas, one of which is "narrative", another is "emergence". What does it mean by "emergence"?
If I understand it correctly, it means game events that aren't programmed in a hard-wired or scripted way, that develop (often unexpectedly) from the way different program elements interact. I suppose it's like the way in M2TW you sometimes get games where the Pope is a passive faction, and in others he goes on a rampage and conquers territory. It's a consequence of how the different factions are interacting, and it's usually a little different in every game. The Spore game (if it's ever released) is an example of a game heavily based on that concept.
P.S. I'm with Froggy -- need that PC demo! I can't buy this until I know if my 2-year old system can run it fairly smoothly.
IGN review
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/813/813214p1.html
9.7 !!
IGN review
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/813/813214p1.html
9.7 !!
It's the same as the PC review (Bioshock PC review IGN (http://pc.ign.com/articles/813/813641p1.html)). Reading the review, the game immediately reminded me of Morrowind. Anybody else feel this way? Obviously they are two different games, but the open-endedness and the ability to use "powers" and weapons struck as similar to Morrowind(which I own and have spent many-a-time on, worth it too).
I don't know much about comps and all but, do you guys think a ATI Radeon 9200 AGP 8X graphics card with 2.8gigs would run the game? I don't remember if I asked this earlier but the IGN review totally makes me want to buy it... of course when I clean off my other games and the price drops:2thumbsup:.
BTW, as it seems that many of you guys are gonna get the demo and possibly the game, I was thinking that this could become the Bioshock thread where you/we all could discuss the game? Just a thought.
Reading the review, the game immediately reminded me of Morrowind. Anybody else feel this way? Obviously they are two different games, but the open-endedness and the ability to use "powers" and weapons struck as similar to Morrowind(which I own and have spent many-a-time on, worth it too).
I guess you have not played System Shock 2? Bioshock sounds very much in that mold, so I expect it will be quite a different animal from Morrowind.
SS2 was rather linear - normally, you had one quest at a time to perform and had to do that to make progress. The quests were actually about the worst part of the game - typically, find the X to open door Y, but much more complicated. It was nice that you had a lot of freedom to roam around levels you had already unlocked, though. By contrast, in Morrowind, you can roam freely and have 101 sidequests you can be working on.
Where SS2 shone was in the narrative drive - the weak point of Morrowind. Personally, I found Morrowind ultimately felt rather dead and the lack of a strong central story left me adrift. In SS2, everyone pretty much is dead but the story is so engaging, the experience is totally gripping.
Basically, I expect Bioshock to be a very story driven game whereas Morrowind was quite the contrary.
Good news (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/33906/Review-PC-BioShock-Outshines-360-Version) for us PC gamers:
If you're debating which version to get, the PC version handles better. In part it's because of the greater precision with the mouse and keyboard, but also with how the plasmids and weapons are selected. [...]
The PC version definitely outclasses the Xbox 360, mostly because of the ability to crank the resolution to 1920 x 1200. If you've got a Vista rig with a DX10 card, you can expect some heightened particle effects, crisper real-time shadows, and more dynamic water, but the game looks gorgeous regardless. On our gaming PC running a Core 2 Quad processor with a GeForce 8800 GTX, and 4 GB of RAM, it ran very well, with only a few occasions of seemingly random framerate hitches. We also couldn't find an option to switch between DX10 and DX9 modes, the game just seems to default to what's in your system, unlike Lost Planet.
I guess you have not played System Shock 2? Bioshock sounds very much in that mold, so I expect it will be quite a different animal from Morrowind.
SS2 was rather linear - normally, you had one quest at a time to perform and had to do that to make progress. The quests were actually about the worst part of the game - typically, find the X to open door Y, but much more complicated. It was nice that you had a lot of freedom to roam around levels you had already unlocked, though. By contrast, in Morrowind, you can roam freely and have 101 sidequests you can be working on.
Where SS2 shone was in the narrative drive - the weak point of Morrowind. Personally, I found Morrowind ultimately felt rather dead and the lack of a strong central story left me adrift. In SS2, everyone pretty much is dead but the story is so engaging, the experience is totally gripping.
Basically, I expect Bioshock to be a very story driven game whereas Morrowind was quite the contrary.
I know you know that I'm not saying that Morrowind is better, it's just that it reminded me of it while reading the review and watching the videos. The switching between weapons and powers is what really triggered the memory. And now I doo wish I played System Shock 2.
Good news for us PC gamers:
If you're debating which version to get, the PC version handles better. In part it's because of the greater precision with the mouse and keyboard, but also with how the plasmids and weapons are selected. [...]
The PC version definitely outclasses the Xbox 360, mostly because of the ability to crank the resolution to 1920 x 1200. If you've got a Vista rig with a DX10 card, you can expect some heightened particle effects, crisper real-time shadows, and more dynamic water, but the game looks gorgeous regardless. On our gaming PC running a Core 2 Quad processor with a GeForce 8800 GTX, and 4 GB of RAM, it ran very well, with only a few occasions of seemingly random framerate hitches. We also couldn't find an option to switch between DX10 and DX9 modes, the game just seems to default to what's in your system, unlike Lost Planet.
I checked out the games forums and that seems to be the case there too. That the PC version is gonna out do the 360 which is veeeery nice to hear. And is it out for the 360 yet? I saw a few copies at my local EB for it.
According to the rumor mill, the Bioshock PC demo will be available at 7 p.m. EST on Monday. Both Nvidia and ATI will be releasing new drivers on Monday as well, and undersea Ayn Rand fans will be advised to install them before venturing forth.
Bob the Insane
08-20-2007, 17:11
P.S.: Seems the game has hit stores early (http://the7gamers.com/2007/08/14/bioshock-early-release/). Some people are reporting finding it at Toys R Us, no word on whether places like GameStop have dropped the hammer.
-edit of the edit-
Hmm, or maybe not ... (http://www.gamernode.com/News/3694-Bioshock-is-NOT-being-released-early/index.html)
One of my minions works part time weekends at ToysRus and guess what, he and one other lucky nameless individual who got to the store early on Saturday have a copy... To quote this chap the box arrived with no set date on it. Normally if there is a set release date the boxes are labeled "not for public release until - ", so they did not know that it could not just go straight out. Of course this was the weekend just gone...
He also made mention that ToyRus may be being fined $10,000...
Demos out ! I'm downloading it Fileplanet(BioShock Demo) (http://www.fileplanet.com/180044/180000/fileinfo/BioShock-Demo)and praying my comp runs it:saint:
Anybody else get to it?
frogbeastegg
08-21-2007, 18:25
Played the demo. It's horrible - in a good way. I've put my pre-order in :gring:
Played the demo until it erm, crashed(yes, I did use the new BioShock NVidia drivers). I'm not really overwhelmed, it looks nice, is somewhat scary, but it's also very...linear and before it crashed it was a bit hectic. Well, I'm gonna try the demo again once I feel like it again, was neither bad nor good so far IMO.
Samurai Waki
08-21-2007, 18:52
Just bought it today *giggles nefariously in anticipation* Downloading very very soon... just waiting for my gaming drive to Defrag should take another ten minutes. :beam:
frogbeastegg
08-21-2007, 19:13
It reminded me a lot of the beginning of System Shock 2. Explosions, chaos, glimpses of monsters, an unknown ally yelling at you over the radio, the feeling to being dropped into the middle of an almighty mess with no idea what's truly going on ...
Bob the Insane
08-21-2007, 19:25
Woohoo...
Just picked a PC copy up from Gamestop in the Gallery in Baltimore...
Sweet...
FWIW, the ATI "hotfix" drivers are here (http://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894&task=knowledge&questionID=29041), and the beta Bioshock Nvidia drivers are here (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_BioShock_downloads.html).
Ironside
08-21-2007, 22:01
FWIW, the ATI "hotfix" drivers are here (http://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894&task=knowledge&questionID=29041), and the beta Bioshock Nvidia drivers are here (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_BioShock_downloads.html).
Reads list and actually find Gefore 6600 in there. :inquisitive: Hm, something to download tomorrow then, demo downloaded today :2thumbsup: )
Bit annoyed with Nvidea on that card, they never ever bothered to do a driver upgrade on that card and that even when you could run the games on max graphics without lag (but due to no driver upgrades, it decides to crash instead :wall: )
I'm Dl-ing the demo right now (1.8GB).
Looking forward to the eye candy.
Alexander the Pretty Good
08-22-2007, 03:27
Started the demo and remembered why I don't play scary games. Looked nice, and it certainly had atmosphere, but it's not my cup of tea.
I'll try the demo then decide if I get it on the 360 or PC. In all likely hood it will be the 360. I just hope it's not another Supreme commander, a mediocre game that gets accolades based on nothing more than it's "spritual precursor."
Started the demo and remembered why I don't play scary games. Looked nice, and it certainly had atmosphere, but it's not my cup of tea.
It's more interesting and confusing than scary IMO. I tried it again yesterday and crashed shortly after the part where I crashed before...why don't they allow saving in the demo?:wall:
frogbeastegg
08-22-2007, 10:34
I tried it again yesterday and crashed shortly after the part where I crashed before...
Which part are you getting up to? (spoiler tag if necessary)
frogbeastegg
08-22-2007, 12:21
EDIT: Never mind, it was a problem with some common antivirus software returning false positives.
Crandaeolon
08-22-2007, 13:36
Seems to be a false positive, the new version of Securom is setting off some virus scanners.
frogbeastegg
08-22-2007, 13:50
Heh, just what I came here to say. The news doesn't seem to have found its way onto the bioshock pages I was reading; I found it while searching for information about what the reproted trojan does.
AGV must have found the demo too tame, and set it up to scare users in a different way. Thanks a bunch. :waves fist at AGV:
Editing the alert to something tamer ...
Ironside
08-22-2007, 14:50
Heh, just what I came here to say. The news doesn't seem to have found its way onto the bioshock pages I was reading; I found it while searching for information about what the reproted trojan does.
AGV must have found the demo too tame, and set it up to scare users in a different way. Thanks a bunch. :waves fist at AGV:
Editing the alert to something tamer ...
AGV did ruin the demo before I could install it today though (deleted the setup files without my approval even, had another false positive a while ago). ~:pissed: So now it's another downloading before I can see if I can run it :wall:
Which part are you getting up to? (spoiler tag if necessary)
I got to the part where I'm trapped in a dark room and some video from the founder of Rapture starts. IIRC Faisal said that's where the XBox 360 demo ends so maybe I made it to the end. Considering that this was a 1.84GB download and I recently read XBox live downloads are limited to some 150MBs or so(I just read that, have no XBox myself), I expected a bit more content.:sweatdrop:
Anyway, I wasn't very impressed, the demo crashed on me twice(yeah, I'm using Vista, but since this is a DX10 game it should run fine on Vista, no?), the graphics are very nice but not revolutionary IMO(maybe they are in DX10 mode) and the gameplay can be very confusing once there is some real action. And to be honest, after about 10mins the scare factor was pretty much gone.:shrug: I found a lot of medipacks and a machinegun and that sort of takes the scare away, the fact that you won't have to reload after death didn't help either.
Or maybe I should switch to expert difficulty.:stupido2: Well, I doubt that will stop it from crashing.
Bob the Insane
08-22-2007, 23:55
Got the full game and it is running absolutely fine on Vista 32bit with the Nvidia 163.44 beta driver...
You have a point with the graphics... While "extremely good" (posiibly even some of the best I have seen in a shooter) they are not "revolutionary", certainly no one is going to look at the monitor, squint and ask is that live action or animation?
I was reading the release notes and they say the game is actually optimised for dual processors.. Sweet..
I'm running it in XP with a 1900 videocard, dual proc. Smooth like butter at 1280x1024. The graphics are not freaky good, but the design certainly is. The sound design and voice acting are all of that and a bag of chips.
I'll be in a position to say more when I've played it for more than a couple of hours.
Mikeus Caesar
08-23-2007, 09:04
Yes, this is truly a wonderful game. So wonderful in fact that it DOESN'T EVEN RUN ON X800 SERIES GRAPHICS CARDS!!! Why oh why, of all the graphics cards it won't work with did it have to be the type me and my friend use!?
EDIT: Could as many of you as possible sign this petition? Apparently if it reaches 5000 signatures, the Bioshock development team will make a patch to fix the problems with X800 series cards.
http://www.petitiononline.com/BioShock/petition.html
Please do so, it's a real pain in the behind for many gamers out there.
frogbeastegg
08-23-2007, 10:56
Husar, you've made it to the end. The demo's supposed to transition to the usual "Buy our game, it's great!" business, then drop you back to the main menu. That puts an end to my original thought: that your PC might be having difficulty with one of the parts where it gets suddenly busy. Possibly a driver issue?
I agree - it isn't scary. Scary games aren't my cup of tea, so I'm somewhat relieved TBH.
The amount of health items it flung out was rather baffling. I’m crap at FPS type games, and I couldn’t pick up approximately half the health packs I saw because my inventory was full of them.
I'm expecting resurrection to have a cost of some sort. System Shock had the same concept; it required a certain amount of nanites (effectively the currency) to rebuild your body.
I thought the graphics were very good. :feels like some kind of provincial frog who will soon find herself gaping at the screen and going, "The pictures are moving! Witch craft!":
Maybe it's because I was lazy and installed the new driver over the old one without removing anything.:embarassed:
My PC should be good enough, I have some duo thing and a modern video thing with a lot of workspace things from Intel, NVidia and Aeneon respectively. ~;)
Anyway, just played Stalker again, now that's a nice shooter.:yes:
Does anyone know how long BioShock will be in SP? Most modern shooters seem to be over after a few hours.:inquisitive:
Maybe it's because I was lazy and installed the new driver over the old one without removing anything.:embarassed:
My PC should be good enough, I have some duo thing and a modern video thing with a lot of workspace things from Intel, NVidia and Aeneon respectively. ~;)
Anyway, just played Stalker again, now that's a nice shooter.:yes:
Does anyone know how long BioShock will be in SP? Most modern shooters seem to be over after a few hours.:inquisitive:
One review said it should take anywhere between 20 and 25 hours to clear... :thumbsup:
Ironside
08-23-2007, 18:59
I thought the graphics were very good. :feels like some kind of provincial frog who will soon find herself gaping at the screen and going, "The pictures are moving! Witch craft!":
So... how many little sisters did you see? Found 4 (that's including the 2 that are quite hard to miss).
I agree that it felt quite easy, but then this is the beginning of the game so.
They're completely off with the subtitles in the demo and that's quite annoying, but otherwise it's good. :2thumbsup:
Too bad that most of the scare and creepyness factors wears off after the first playthrough.
frogbeastegg
08-23-2007, 20:50
Maybe it's because I was lazy and installed the new driver over the old one without removing anything.:embarassed:
That's generally an invitation to trouble.
So... how many little sisters did you see? Found 4 (that's including the 2 that are quite hard to miss).
I saw the one down on the ground where you get the radio speech about "That's a little sister."
I saw the one in the cutscene where you're semi concious after falling down from the bit where you get the first psi power.
There was one in the "Buy this game now!" section after the demo finished.
Er ... don't remember any more.
Ironside
08-23-2007, 22:25
I saw the one down on the ground where you get the radio speech about "That's a little sister."
I saw the one in the cutscene where you're semi concious after falling down from the bit where you get the first psi power.
There was one in the "Buy this game now!" section after the demo finished.
Er ... don't remember any more.
Hmm atleast 5 then :laugh4: . Didn't even think to consider your last one as it's outside the demo IMO.
Have you red or seen about were the little sisters stay while not gathering adam?
They stay inside pipes that you can see on the wall. So you don't get a good look on them, but you'll see thier glowing eyes looking at you... for a while before they crawl further in I guess.
The ones you've missed are in the right part of the room you get into after going through the corridor that gets flooded. You turn right and check the body there and on the wall to your left you should see some eyes. Took me the second find to get what those eyes were, as you can see the pipe better there.
It's also a dead cat in the left part of that room. Not common with dead pets in games.
The second one is in the resturant were the new years eve party were held, on the wall right outside the toilets, next to the phones
Lots of interesting details, too bad that it's hard to notice them all, especially on the best (first) run.
I suddenly don't feel so stupid for buying BioShock via Steam -- turns out the disc version contains SecuROM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securom), a Sony-made bit of DRM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management) that latches onto your system and never lets go.
Of course, STALKER comes with the same malware, and I installed that from a disc, so I guess I'm no better off anyway.
DRM manages my digital rights in much the same way prison manages freedom. I understand the desire to protect one's work, but it all seems so futile. Copies show up elsewhere on the interwebs anyway, and paying customers like me have to worry about conflicting security software messing up our systems. Anybody remember the Sony rootkit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_rootkit) fiasco? The Starforce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starforce) fiasco?
Grrrrr.
-edit-
Apparently the BioShock implementation of SecuROM allows you to install the game twice. That's it. Forever. Say you have a laptop and a tower, and you install it on both, and then replace one. You're going to have to call the company, personally, to beg your case. Nice one.
-edit of the edit-
Seems I'm far from alone (http://www.digg.com/pc_games/Backlash_against_DRM_in_Bioshock_mounting) in being cheesed off about SecuROM in BioShock.
Even the editors of PC Gamer (http://www.pcgamer.com/) can't get traction once SecuROM has decided they're past their limit. Nice.
If some of the comments on Digg and 2K forums are true, there is DRM in the freaking demo?!?!?! That makes sense. ~:rolleyes:
2K just lost my business. :no:
The PC Gamer editor's blog is chilling.
All I have to do is call the number in the manual, read off the reactivation request code supplied by the activation wizard, and they'll give me an unlock code. Well, not so simple in this case—the support number for the US listed in the manual didn't work, giving me a "We cannot connect your call at this time" message. So I called the Canadian number, which went through. After four minutes on hold, I was told that the only way they'd unlock it is if I take a photo of the disc and the manual and email it to them. Wow… even Microsoft doesn’t make you do that.
Having now jumped through all their hoops hours ago, I’m currently waiting for 2K to get around to allowing me to play my legitimate copy of the game on the system of my choosing. Meanwhile, the pirates who cracked Windows Vista’s activation in a matter of days are already at work on the game, and I sincerely doubt that the BioShock copy protection wall will still be standing a week from today. And while those pirates play their ill-gotten games without a care, those of us who came by our copies legally will have to put up with draconian obstacles that will then serve no purpose whatsoever. Well done 2K, well done indeed.
Later:
It's now been more than 24 hours since I sent 2K tech support a photo of my BioShock disc and manual, and I have yet to hear from them about my code being reactivated.
Papewaio
08-24-2007, 00:01
Then I'm not buying it.
The only point of these is to stop piracy, and the pirates generally remove this type of software before distributing the media.
So I don't want extra software that may compromise any of my PCs or Laptops with something that is overzealous... I have MS Office for that.
Wow, this is getting very annoying. You have StarForce that cripples your DVD drives, SecuROM that won't let you install more than twice without sending things around the world and begging for mercy and they even included such malware in demos. I already had two DVD drives deteriorate into uselessness which was likely the fault of StarForce in at least one case.
Then there is Earth 2140 where I have to call a number that costs more than 1EUR to be able to play again(depending on how long they make me wait I'll pay for the game twice:wall: ).
On the other hand it's a good thing since I'm simply not going to buy such games. Only preorder currently is World in Conflict, but I doubt they put anything anoying in it that could ruin their prestige project(then again, you never know :no: ).
Tsk, I was so happy when the lady on the phone gave me an activation code for my outdated Win XP beta many years ago but since then many companies seem to have adopted that mechanism and made it worse.
Guess it's time for some boycotting, I need to get out more anyway.:eyebrows:
For what it's worth, SecuROM is a rootkit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit). A freaking rootkit. Will Sony never learn? Here's how you can find it on your PC:
Go to your start menu. Click on "run." Enter C:\Documents and Settings\XXX\Application Data\SecuROM
Put your PC's name in place of XXX. You will also have to have selected "show hidden files and folders" under the folder options in explorer.
There is a readme text file, among other things, in this hidden folder. The text is amusing, to say the least.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THE FILES IN THIS FOLDER BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LOOSE ESSENTIAL DIGITAL RIGHTS.
READ BELOW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical Information for the PC Administrator:
The files securom_v7_01.dat and securom_v7_01.bak have been created during the installation of a SecuROM protected application.
It guarantees more user convenience because the original disc does not have to be in the local drive at all times anymore.
It is necessary for copy protected CDs, demo versions and protected software downloaded from the Internet.
The file contains your licences for all products which are SecuROM protected, therefore it will not be deleted automatically.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THE FILE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LOOSE ESSENTIAL DIGITAL RIGHTS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in securom_v7_01.dat will not be transferred to any other computer without your permission.
This security system is connected with a MS Windows Service called "SecuROM User Access Service".
This module is started automatically when launching a protected application if the user is logged in with Windows administrator rights.
In case users do not have administrator rights we recommend to keep it running.
See www.securom.com for further information
Online activation, eh? Guess I can hold off on buying/playing Bioshock for the time being.
Once again, pirates (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsJyfN0ICU) get to have all the fun. :sweatdrop:
Wait. So what does it all have to do with the demo? Do I have it now cuz I've downloaded the demo :inquisitive: ?
Yup. Seems they included SecuROM in the demo, since demos get used in nefarious ways by the bad guys. Not that it will stop the bad guys, mind you, but that's their rationale. So 2K games is infecting everyone in sight with a Sony rootkit in an utterly futile attempt to slow piracy.
I predict this is going to blow up in their faces, big time.
In fairness, nobody has demonstrated that the SecuROM rootkit is as evil as the original Sony Rootkit, or StarForce, for that matter. But I really hate game companies punishing honest users by saddling our PCs with malware. It's just bad PR and bad business.
Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, one of the biggest games last year, was released with no DRM, no rootkit of any sort, and I didn't see it hurting their sales. In fact, gamers on the geek boards went overboard praising the company for the choice.
2K should apologize and issue a SecuROM rootkit removal tool. Anything short of that is unacceptable.
How does it affect my computer as it's only the demo?
Just went reading through the Bioshock forums(skipping about 20 pages in the thread about Secrum), it looks like this is "tazering" hundreds of people badly. The conversation tho, has somewhat shifted to the fact that probably 1 in about 15 gamers or so pirate games and that the gaming companies are over reacting to this and as such, these "protection" software that come with their games and screw up everyone's regular machines, that PC gaming is dying because of it. Anybody else rummage through other forums about this? And because Bioshock was very promising in reviving PC gaming, it could be the death nil if they basically(especially 2k Games) get their heads together and realize that these measure are hurting the industry because of it.
And now I don't feel like playing the demo ~:(
2K games loaded both the finished game and the demo with SecuROM. This is meant to prevent the most simplistic sort of .exe hacking. It won't work, but that's what they did.
If you installed the demo, you have installed SecuROM's rootkit. Apparently it makes AVG anti-virus very unhappy, as well as some other apps. Angry? Irritated? Let them know. (http://www.2kgames.com/index.php?p=support_contact)
It would also be productive to let every gaming site, tech journalist or press contact know about this. If you know somebody, complain. Loudly. The more this is in the press, the more embarrassed they will be.
Okay, so if I uninstall the demo, does the rootkit go with it? Or does it stay?
The rootkit stays. Without a removal tool, there is no safe way to get rid of it. That's one of several reasons geeks foam at the mouth and howl at the moon when you mention rootkits.
So it's on my comp for ever then? Well bugger that...
It looks as thought 2K understands the danger of geek rage. They have changed the activation policy, and are issuing some sort of removal tool (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html). Gads, why they even bothered with this technology in the first place is beyond me.
-edit-
Hmm, they're also claiming that SecuROM does not install a rootkit. I am suspicious ...
Does SecuROM install a root kit on my computer?
No. SecuROM DOES NOT USE any root kit technology in its implementation. SecuROM Product Activation does place a folder and registry keys on your system. These folders are used only for storage of license information and information to assist with disc authentication. Please do not modify or delete these files. Tampering with these files may result in authentication issues.
What is a root kit?
A "rootkit" can be described as software or a set of software tools intended to conceal running processes, files or system data from the operating system and which can open ports to allow remote access to the system.
A "rootkit" makes it possible for viruses or other malicious programs ("malware") to hide content on a user's PC. In this way, a virus or other malware may remain undetected, even if updated anti-virus software is installed.
SecuROM DOES NOT USE any root kit technology in its implementation. SecuROM Product Activation does place a folder and registry keys on your system. These folders are used only for storage of license information and information to assist with disc authentication. Please do not modify or delete these files. Tampering these files may result in authentication issues.
Well, I don't care about rootkits that don't actually harm me or my computer(I don't think they want to steal my screenshots or my digital job appliances though I'd happily take any job offers they have :sweatdrop: ).
What makes me angry is that they want to dictate how often I can use something that I payed them money for, especially when the end of use does not necessarily mean I'm at fault(my HDD could fail twice a week forcing me to reinstall).
I remember I ran out of activations for Earth 2140 because I had two 512MB RAM sticks, activated, then put in another 512MB stick, activated, found out it wasn't worth it(the third stick was slower etc), took it out, had to activate it again. Well, this is mighty stupid, not even Win XP wanted me to reactivate because of a tiny RAM stick. IT's absolutely ridiculous and it's also the reason why I haven't downloaded a single song from a legal download site. I'm not paying them to limit me.:wall:
Crandaeolon
08-24-2007, 10:06
AFAIK Securom doesn't use rootkits, or at least hasn't used them in the past.
frogbeastegg
08-24-2007, 11:12
I'm stunned. I've heard the name SecuROM many times but never in a bad context. I thought it was one of those standard CD-on-startup checks. All this about limited activations and covertly installing software on the user's PC is completely new to me. Starforce and Steam are the only ones I've heard bad things about. I won't let either onto my PC.
As for this "activate your install" business ...! :rtwno:
If you installed the demo, you have installed SecuROM's rootkit. Apparently it makes AVG anti-virus very unhappy
Yes, it does. Or something in the demo does. AGV was yelling that it had found 23 instances of Trojan Horse Generic6 on my PC after I installed the demo. The PC was clean before that. The demo zip scanned as clean before I opened it, as did the unpacked installation files.
Oh well, my copy of the game is installing as I type. I've already installed the demo. Too late to change my mind if I wanted to.
Now that the game is out, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to use spoiler tags where appropriate. Untagged spoilers can ruin a plot oriented game for others.
Ironside
08-24-2007, 13:05
AFAIK Securom doesn't use rootkits, or at least hasn't used them in the past.
The Bioshock version uses something that at least triggers rootkit varnings from several test programs. And some anti-virus programes (AVG atleast) go haywired about trojan varnings, so it's fairly certain to say that something is amiss.
Whatever reason, whoever came up with those limitations is one very biiig fool. I mean, had it worked prefectly, most normal costumers would feel the problem after a year or so... And that would reflect badly on 2K and horrendously on Securom, as it does now. The difference is that at that point the costumers are most likely really screwed over and certainly not willing to give the companies a second chance to redeem themself.
Bioshock is on hold here, until the matter has been resolved. Had it only been Securom (that atleast currently doesn't seem to give any issues that I need to bother about), but it's much more into it atm.
Edit: And SecuROM is currently on my computer thanks to that demo. :thumbsdown:
I'm stunned. I've heard the name SecuROM many times but never in a bad context. I thought it was one of those standard CD-on-startup checks. All this about limited activations and covertly installing software on the user's PC is completely new to me. Starforce and Steam are the only ones I've heard bad things about. I won't let either onto my PC.
Same here.
Seems to be a popular game though, almost sold out in the local GameStop(no, didn't want to buy it, I know someone who works there).
I hope they get millions of calls from angry customers.~;p
Productivity
08-24-2007, 16:28
I'm going to hold off buying it until more comes out about the copy protection. It's a pity because I was really excited about this game, but there comes a point at which it's not worth it for a game I can't control.
The "is it a rootkit or isn't it" debate is ongoing and robust. SecuROM swears up and down that it isn't, but they're a branch of Sony, and Sony has a long track record of doing horrible things to PCs and misrepresenting after the fact, so I don't think their word is worth anything.
Best analysis I've read so far:
It seems like you're saying the SecuROM is not a rootkit only because SecuROM does not intend to do anything evil. This is akin to saying it's all right if I use a nuclear warhead in my back yard as a microwave oven because I don't intend to use it for anything evil.
It's the potential for misuse that defines a rootkit, not the goodwill of the developers.
Any software that does not provide any uninstall utility is malware. The moment you attempt to take away my right to choose what is and isn't installed on my system, you've crossed the line between good intentions and bad. That's why I don't approve of SecuROM.
Alexander the Pretty Good
08-24-2007, 17:21
I installed the demo through Steam and found the rootkit but AVG anti-vir didn't pick up anything...
The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).
I've decided that using online activation for a game crosses the line. I could go into all of the reasons here, but I don't think it's necessary. I would have loved to play BioShock all the way through, but sometimes you just have to know when too much is too much.
I'll let you know how it goes; I don't expect this to be easy.
Nicely done Lemur, I hope you succeed.:2thumbsup:
If this would make big enough waves, I could already see some legislation here that requires them to write onto the package what sort of copy production is used. Maybe I should write to the appropriate consumer lobby groups.
Ironside
08-24-2007, 18:14
I installed the demo through Steam and found the rootkit but AVG anti-vir didn't pick up anything...
Can be that AVG has patched it away now. It seems to be the install files that makes AVG react. At least is was for me. The demo works fine with the files quarantined and I'm not getting anything from the rootkit or the demo.
My second download was from Steam so unless they changed something in the demo, downloading through Steam doesn't make a difference, except possibly that the files are only in temp files and not in a chosen folder. And only the file scanner seems to pick it up. So if you downloaded it today, you might see AVG react to it tomorrow.
The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).
Were there already 2 other Lemurs signed into the 2K forums? ~D
frogbeastegg
08-24-2007, 19:33
I've gone about 20 minutes past the point where the demo ended. Most of the beginning section is the same as the demo, except for a few changes which make your character less uber, those being: No machine gun until later on; not found the flame power yet; fewer bullets fot the pistol.
From what I've seen in-game and in the manual it looks like my hopes for character customisation will be met. There's a lot of potential upgrades, and I doubt you'll be able to afford them all.
AVG? I'm not up on the lingo. I have Norton, and you're saying that if I run the demo, it'll pick up all sorts of mish mash and the demo might crash?
Zenicetus
08-24-2007, 19:57
Bah.... I was planing on picking up the game at the mall this afternoon, but it looks like I'll pass on this one (and I didn't install the demo, luckily). I'll put up with activation DRM for software I really need, like Photoshop, but not for something relatively trivial like a game. Also, I sometimes like to go back and revisit games I've played in the past, and there's no guarantee that the activation server will still be around a few years from now. That's why I usually buy the boxed CD/DVD version of games even when there's an online purchase version.
I wish there was a way to let them know that they actually did just lose a customer over this kind of thing, but just posting on a forum and saying "I'm not buying it" doesn't carry much weight. And most stores won't give you a full refund, or let you exchange for another game, so that screws that avenue of protest.
Great way to ruin what looked like a good game. I'll spend my money on games like GalCiv2, from companies like Stardock that treat their legitimate customers like actual customers, instead of thieves.
Just read through most of the SecuRom thread at the 2K forums, there are a lot of people cheesed off about this (Lemur's is post #1034 ~D ). For a while, this thing was growing faster than I could read it. The activation servers went down apparently. ~:rolleyes: I'll be posting a "not getting my $50" post soon. Useless gesture, I'm sure.
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6628
Aside from the obvious DRM/rootkit issues, online activation is just a bad idea. What happens if Jack Thompson sues TakeTwo into oblivion? If we want to re-install 3 years from now for a memory-lane game, we're hosed.
PS - Apparently, the Steam version also has SecuRom, 2K didn't trust Steam's DRM method.
I have the demo through Steam. The eye-candy is exceptional, but not my kind of game.
So now I have the SecuRom weirdness in my rig? Is there a way to tell for sure and get rid of it?
Kekvit Irae
08-24-2007, 21:42
What happens if Jack Thompson sues TakeTwo into oblivion?
You mean people are still taking that nutjob (http://gamepolitics.com/2007/07/03/jack-thompson-claims-bar-official-demanded-psych-test-suspension/) seriously? :gathering:
You mean people are still taking that nutjob (http://gamepolitics.com/2007/07/03/jack-thompson-claims-bar-official-demanded-psych-test-suspension/) seriously? :gathering:
http://xboxer.tv/2007/08/jack_thompsons_sights_set_on_b.html
Well, I don't know about seriously...
Personally, I don't think SecuRom is a rootkit. I operate on the literal definition of the term, which would mean it's "kit" that gives "root"-level access to a PC. I don't believe that SecurRom does that. However, crapware, shovelware, ect would still apply in my book. :no:
It sounds like the activation mess (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/bioshock/news.html?sid=6177330&om_act=convert&om_clk=newsfeatures&tag=newsfeatures;title;1) is Half-Life2 all over again and highlights why I try to steer well clear of games that require you to go online and beg permission just to play an offline, single-player game.
The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).Good luck to you. :bow:
Ken Levine says they will remove the activation at some point, as well as nixing any rumors of a PS3 release.
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/24/levine-confirms-no-ps3-bioshock-and-does-mea-culpa-on-pc-issues/
One thing I have to call BS on:
Levine admits there were "real screw-ups" and he "understands why people are pissed off" about the online copy protection verification for the game and it comes down to a classic victim of their own success story. They couldn't have planned the game would be such an insta-hit and they weren't prepared, so when all those people tried to verify their PC versions online during installation the server crashed.
Couldn't have planned it would be a hit!?! It's been on everyone's radar for over a year! Surely they had some clue, and should have known about the HL2 release fiasco. :no:
Alexander the Pretty Good
08-25-2007, 00:20
They didn't feel like spending the money to have a decent server.
The reinstall limit has been raised to five now. Also, in theory, if you uninstall it gives you that install back again. Of course if you can't reinstall because, for example, your drive got fried then that is one installation which you won't see again.
As an anti-piracy measure I'm sure this system will prove utterly ineffective. However that is not the point. The idea of the online activation and SecuROM protection is merely to ensure early sales of the game. I'm sure that all concerned are fully aware that it will be cracked sooner or later.
The point of the limited number of installs allowed is designed to improve long term sales by damaging the second-hand and exchange markets. Simple as that really.
Of course the main issue for most is that, whether the protection is a rootkit or not, a pirated copy will have more utility than a legimate copy. This is clearly backwards, contrary to the whole idea of copy protection and highly insulting to the legitimate consumer.
Alexander the Pretty Good
08-25-2007, 08:41
Someday a producer will realize that and make money hand over fist.
frogbeastegg
08-25-2007, 10:25
Is anyone else out there playing the game? Would be a tad ironic if my wish to avoid reading spoilers in the line of duty was fulfilled by everyone else avoiding the game like the plague :tongueg:
Bob the Insane
08-25-2007, 13:54
Well I have the game and it is installed on my one and only gaming machine so any damage is already done and I am not overly concerned...
It still rocks are a game...
I have no doubt that the game is of the highest quality. I will not, however, buy it while this system of protection remains in place.
If a way of removing the protection turns up, either legitimately or illegitimately, I will buy and enjoy.
I've long since stopped buying games when they are first released, preferring to wait until patches and mods have been released. This only gives me more reason to wait.
AggonyDuck
08-25-2007, 22:44
I ended up buying the game, but I have a certain problem. The game actually makes me panic at times, reducing me to running away and wasting precious ammo in desperate bursts without any considerable effect, which makes playing the game an ordeal for me. I suppose this is a result of well created atmosphere on the game. I must admit, that already entering Rapture felt like taking a plunge into the unknown and after plunging into it I feel like I'm descending deeper and deeper into the unknown, without any knowledge of what direction to take to save me from it. Rapture isn't a place I want to explore, but a hell that I want to escape and the only way to escape it is seems to be to throw all my fears aside. But why does it have to be so hard?
PS. the game has already made me squeal once in terror. :shame:
Geoffrey S
08-25-2007, 23:47
I find it disgusting that the computer game industry seems to be the only one which allows publishers to so screw over paying customers by selling them a product without the right to actually own it, to have a physical product that is yours. All this business of activating a download, or registering my purchase makes a mockery of property rights, let alone installing unwanted programs onto computers of customers.
Lemur, good post on the 2k forums and I wish you luck in getting the refund. If only more people would do that (or not buy in the first place) it might make publishers stop and think. Or destroy pc gaming. I don't know, really.
Zenicetus
08-26-2007, 00:14
Is anyone else out there playing the game? Would be a tad ironic if my wish to avoid reading spoilers in the line of duty was fulfilled by everyone else avoiding the game like the plague :tongueg:
I'm playing it, just starting out though (so I appreciate the spoiler warnings!)
After my initial rant, I cooled off and found some more info about what's actually going on. Short version: it's not a rootkit. It does get flagged by RootkitRevealer, because that program flags all suspicious methods for hiding keys, and this is causing some confusion. Here's the geek-level info on all this, for anyone interested:
http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=279347&cid=20349927
This may or may not make people feel better about what the company is doing. It's still kinda nasty, but far from rootkit nasty, and this isn't the first game I've played that stores hidden SecureRom keys.
The company is also saying that they'll remove the activation limits (all limits, not just increasing it to 5) after the initial release period when the game is hot. They're not committing to a date, but that seems reasonable. It answers the question of "what happens if your company is gone, 2 years from now and I want to play it again?". So there's an element of trust required here, but I think they've been burned pretty badly by the initial user response, so I'll give 'em the benefit of the doubt.
BTW, I did a manual "check for updates" in AVG before installing the game, which did pull in a new update, and the game installed without triggering any alarms. So maybe AVG now has this particular set of game files off the hot list. Or maybe I just got lucky, I dunno. I'm also surprised that I can play the game fairly smoothly with high effects settings on my 2-year old machine (although only at 1024x768).
Anyway, looking forward to some game discussion once I get a little further. Some spooky stuff going on around here, and I really like the 30's Deco theme. Reminds me of the Dr. Phibes movies.... I keep expecting Vincent Price to jump out from the next corner.
Kekvit Irae
08-26-2007, 00:50
Are we talking about Bioshock screenshots (as is the whole original intent of this thread) or copy protections? :blankg:
I'd like it if people would stay on topic and make a new thread if they want to discuss Securom or whatever other copy protections a game might have instead of derailing a potentially great thread.
Also, be forewarned, froggie and I do not like blatant spoilers. If you want to continue the thread as a screenshot or discussion thread, please be advised to use the spoiler tags for things that might spoil the plot for those who have yet to play.
Are we talking about Bioshock screenshots (as is the whole original intent of this thread) or copy protections? :blankg:
I'd like it if people would stay on topic and make a new thread if they want to discuss Securom or whatever other copy protections a game might have instead of derailing a potentially great thread.
Also, be forewarned, froggie and I do not like blatant spoilers. If you want to continue the thread as a screenshot or discussion thread, please be advised to use the spoiler tags for things that might spoil the plot for those who have yet to play.
I think we should just turn it into the Official Bioshock Thread or something like that since the game's already out.
Kekvit Irae
08-26-2007, 02:05
The choice is really up to Fragony to change the thread, since he was the one who started it. I have no objections, either way, to changing the thread or starting a new one.
The choice is really up to Fragony to change the thread, since he was the one who started it. I have no objections, either way, to changing the thread or starting a new one.
Alright then
frogbeastegg
08-26-2007, 18:51
I am splitting Bioshock discussion into two threads from this point onwards.
All gameplay discussion will go into the Bioshock gameplay (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90603) thread.
All other Bioshock discussion, including discussion of the CP, belong in the Bioshock non-gameplay (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69152&page=6) topic, i.e. this one.
All spoilers must be concealed by spoiler tags regardless of which thread you post in.
I'm doing this so people can talk about the game without it getting lost in other concerns, and so people wanting to talk about the copy protection etc can do so without it getting lost in game talk. Discussion of SecuROM will be permitted in the correct topic until and unless it heads into illegal areas
Please take the time to put your posts in the correct topic! Moving individual posts is a pain and a half, and having discussion pinwheeling across two threads defeats the whole point of having two threads. If people won't make the minescule effort then we'll have to merge the two topics, and then no one will be happy.
:Hands Fragony and Out a ticket each: I'm requisitioning your threads for the good of the org. This ticket enables you to claim a thread of equal value from the front desk. Thanks for your cooperation :winkg:
doc_bean
08-28-2007, 15:35
Glad i read this thread while DLing the demo, cancelled the DL.
Bioshock looks like a nice game, but I'll live without it. I avoided HL2 because of the online activation thing and i'll avoid this game too.
I've already reinstalled civ4 more than five times on different computers, and that game is two years old or so. I ain't buying for the right to play a game, I'll only pay to own it.
Lemur, good luck with fighting the man !
No response as yet to any of my inquiries; I imagine they're overwhelmed with angry users. I'll give it a little time before I launch into more emails.
Bob the Insane
08-28-2007, 21:51
I ain't buying for the right to play a game, I'll only pay to own it.
Interesting statement...
From a contractual perspective the only thing you own is a license to use the software. There is no transfer of intellectual property rights when you purchase a game. Technically you do not own any software you did not write yourself or commision to be written for you...
Not Windows, not MS Office, not IE, not your games, none of it owned by you. You own license(s) to use it and the copies of the media containing it.
Is this not the case?
If it is they why do we get so upset when companies make an effort to enforce this aggreement that we have entered into?
Is it because the aggreement is not properly defined at time of purchase? Because it is inherently "wrong"?
If it only when they are overly streniously implimented? Is it because the limited number of installs implies a distinct lifespan for the software becuase lets face it, we are going to upgrade machines...
Well, one simple line is crossed with online activation: My license is worthless if their server licensing goes down, if they stop paying for the server, if they go insane, or if they go out of business.
I can stick Fallout into my PC and play it, even though Black Isle and Interplay are dead and gone. If every game company begins this activation nonsense, PC gaming will lose its entire back catalog over time.
I know, I know, someone from the BioShock team is now claiming that they will release a patch down the road that removes the activation. I guess we had all better download and archive that patch as soon as it comes out, 'cause the game will not install properly without it in 2010.
Bob the Insane, let me come back at you with a different example. When I buy a book, I am not buying the full intellectual rights to it. A copy of Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants does not give me the right to make a movie from that book. On the other hand, Bantam or Dell Ray or whatever publisher does not gain the right to inspect my home, check my bookshelf, and lock my front door if it detects a photocopier.
This is an established customer/producer relationship, and I will oppose publishers' attempts to expand their rights at the expense of yours and mine. Everybody can make money, everybody can enjoy the work, but fer cryin' out loud, don't treat your customers like criminals.
doc_bean
08-28-2007, 22:25
Interesting statement...
From a contractual perspective the only thing you own is a license to use the software. There is no transfer of intellectual property rights when you purchase a game. Technically you do not own any software you did not write yourself or commision to be written for you...
If you buy a book you can read it as many times as you want, yet you don't own the IP either. Same thing for me.
Not Windows, not MS Office, not IE, not your games, none of it owned by you. You own license(s) to use it and the copies of the media containing it.
Sure, I however expect a decent user license, not the sort of crap they try to push onto us these days.
Is this not the case?
If it is they why do we get so upset when companies make an effort to enforce this aggreement that we have entered into?
Is it because the aggreement is not properly defined at time of purchase? Because it is inherently "wrong"?
It's pretty much the same discussion as with the music industry and how they claim owning something on cd doesn't mean you have the right to own it on mp3. You buy the cd for the music, you don't own it in the IP way and you shouldn't, but you payed money to be able to listen to the music (or the recording), however you prefer. This tends to be the way the consumer views the deal.
If it only when they are overly streniously implimented? Is it because the limited number of installs implies a distinct lifespan for the software becuase lets face it, we are going to upgrade machines...
I think we need a standard for 'proper use' of software, which protects consumers against this sort of thing.
EDIT: well, Lemur said it better than me.
Bob the Insane
08-29-2007, 01:03
All fair points, I was really trying to play devils advocate there...
I think we accept that we do not own the rights to the game, but we do expect, from previous experience, that said license has no lifespan and is good for as long as the physical media holds out, or longer if the publisher is feeling generous...
Are these new measures an over-reaction to digital rights issues and the speed of change in the digital media technology...
Of course the fact that you must hand over your cash before you even see the license information (ie the contract) is interesting.
Having not read this thread in some time, I was very surprised yesterday when AVG popped up with a virus warning about Bioshock. I checked the net and quickly found that it was a false positive and solved the situation by temporarily turning off Resident Shield. However, in the process I found out about the limit of 5 installations.
I am absolutely outraged.
I cannot possibly emphasize that enough. My wife and I are both gamers and we both installed Bioshock immediately. That means we now have a grand total of 3 installations left. We like installing game mods regularly, which means frequent re-installations. I also have a particular habit of installing very old games many years after I first purchased them. This all means one thing: I am guaranteed to burn through my 5 installations very, very quickly. This is unbelievable. Nowhere on the box does it indicate that the number of installations is limited. You are essentially conned into renting a game for a short period of time.
Bioshock is a great game. I am enjoying it more than I have enjoyed a FPS in several years. However, I will never buy a Irrational Games title ever again. That is a shame, since they were formerly on my 'must buy no matter what' list.
frogbeastegg
08-29-2007, 19:34
I will never buy a Irrational Games title ever again
Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.
Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.
Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.
:hate for online activation:
I agree. I loathe it. I detest it. I like to know my games will work when I install them and continue to work for years; online activation introduces many potential reasons that they will not do so.
Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.
Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.
Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.
Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.
Well, that is somewhat better, but that must mean that the game updates the authorization server when it is uninstalled, something that also displeases me. If you are correct, then I will rework my statement into: I will never buy any game that uses this form of copyright protection, no matter who the developer is. With luck, Irrational will see the error of their ways and either part company with 2K or convince them never to pull this kind of stunt again. If not, I suppose I will no longer be a customer.
Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.
Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.
Irrational Games no longer exists, they are now 2K Boston/2K Australia (bought by TakeTwo in Jan 2006), and thus the developer and publisher are the same company. From what I've read on the forum and seen in interviews with Ken, the use of SecuRom and activation limits were decisions made by them. They may have been pressured by the parent company, maybe not. They cannot be completely blameless here, especially since the activation servers were under their control.
Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.
Actually, you don't. That was the idea, but someone messed up and it doesn't work. They are currently developing a key revoke tool that you will need to run before uninstalling. If you have a disk crash, you are out of luck. One more reason why activations are just a bad idea. Check the SecuRom/activation entry here:
http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html
So you have to uninstall BioShock before reinstalling Windows on your machine, that's not bad, right? If all games go to something like this, you are going to be spending hours uninstalling games and revoking keys before you can even get around to dealing with the OS install. Completely unacceptable, and a terrible precedent to set for future games. If they truly want to kill off PC gaming, this is a good first step.
Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.
The game probably would have been #1 anyway. It's been one of the most anticipated games for the past year, and there is nothing else out right now that could compete. I agree, it hasn't been cracked yet, but at what cost?
These are the problems so far, as I understand them. Correct me if I don't have everything right:
Activation in general. Now set for 5 installs on 5 separate machines. No key revoke mechanism that works yet. Who knows how you will reinstall the game in the distant future.
Running with separate user accounts on the same machine uses a key for each user that tries to run the game.
Running with different OSes (Vista/XP) on the same machine uses a key for each.
SecuRom. Not as malicious as people are hyping. The keys are left behind, as other games also using SecuRom for protection (STALKER, NWN2) but with no activation. The demo did not actually install SecuRom, but it was present.
SecuRom. Seems to blacklist official Microsoft programs (Process Explorer mainly, rumors of others), will not start the game or complete the install if PE has been run since PC powerup. Also seems to conflict with AVG anti-virus, will not run with protection turned on. Seems to have problems with some DVD writers as well, won't install properly (didn't M2TW have the same issue?)
IT staff for the activation servers were woefully unprepared for the launch, servers in both the US and Oz failed. The US one was down for hours (6?), since no one was around to monitor it.
Installations that failed due to these problems seem to use keys without actually getting the game working.
The tech support numbers printed on the box for the North American launch were flipped. The US number was actually the Canadian number, the Canadian number was actually the US number. Hilarity ensues, eh?
Neither 2K or SecuRom wanted responsibility for installation issues, and originally passed the buck, endearing both with the paying customers. This has been resolved.
All this adds up to a lot of angry customers, ticked off fans, and bad press. To their credit, Ken has admitted they screwed up royally, and they are working to fix the problems. But why they decided to try a brand new (and fairly radical) CP scheme for a game this size is beyond my comprehension. The only way they could have screwed up the release any more would have been to have the goatse pic show up in the title screen. Could you imagine how much praise and adulation they would have gotten if they had just stuck with a DVD key or disk check? It's such a shame, this game was something I've wanted since last summer. I'll be waiting for the "Gold" edition, or whatever release they put out without the activation limit. Until then, I'll be keeping my $50. I don't rent games.
:bow:
frogbeastegg
08-29-2007, 22:57
Irrational Games no longer exists, they are now 2K Boston/2K Australia
My mistake. I don't follow developers or publishers, as a rule. I thought they were still a standard studio, and thus at their publisher's mercy.
If you have a disk crash, you are out of luck.
I know. I did say.
Check the SecuRom/activation entry here:
http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html
Lovely. According to the things I had read the forthcoming tool was to remove the SecuROM leftovers after the game/demo was removed. The activations were reported as working correctly, and increased to give more slack. One might suppose that sometimes you do get your activation back, others not.
So you have to uninstall BioShock before reinstalling Windows on your machine, that's not bad, right?
No, it's bad. Like I said.
In the 12 or so years since I got my first PC I’ve had 3 failed hard drives, 1 failed motherboard, 1 entire PC melted by a power surge (through a surge protector!), and 1 processor burn itself out because the idiot who installed it forgot to put a fan on. I back up my important files to 5 seperate locations! The last thing I want is software which can’t be smoothly reinstalled after each unexpected disaster. I don't like XP needing to activate itself online, let alone a game.
I didn't get much choice about whether to buy into limited activations, online activation and SecuROM. My copy was opened and installing when this news appeared on a site I read; by that point I couldn't take the game back if I wanted to. I would not describe myself as thrilled. I've had the AGV problems too, wasted the best part of an hour chasing imaginary trojans on my PC and worrying about the potential infection of my writing manuscripts. No, definitely not thrilled. This is one of very, very few PC games I've brought one release day. I picked up the retail version because I won’t use Steam, and lo and behold I get the very same online intrusion I was aiming to avoid. Not thrilled one bit.
I'm not under any false impression that this is somehow a Good Thing(TM). It isn't.
The game probably would have been #1 anyway.
Until the last few weeks before release I did not get the impression Bioshock was especially anticipated amongst the general gaming public; if it had been I wouldn’t have been so easily able to studiously ignore it until it was finished.
The pro-copy protection argument always runs that the more popular a game the more it will be pirated. Which makes sense. Therefore if it was destined to be a number 1 hit it needs the protection more.
One may wonder how many sales end up being lost to people who refuse to buy the game because of the intrusive copy protection, and how this balances against potential sales lost to piracy. How many potential pirates will actually buy the game anyway, instead of waiting a bit longer for the cracked version?
So you have to uninstall BioShock before reinstalling Windows on your machine, that's not bad, right?
No, it's bad. Like I said.
Sorry, I was being a little sarcastic with that line. Should have put a smilie in there. Actually, looking back at that whole paragraph, I could have done better. That could possibly be the longest post I've ever made here, and it shows. ~D
Imagine having to uninstall 20 games before reformatting a drive or reinstalling XP. Completely unacceptable. If this is the future, I may as well run Ubuntu and buy a Wii.
One thing I didn't put in you mentioned.
I didn't get much choice about whether to buy into limited activations, online activation and SecuROM. My copy was opened and installing when this news appeared on a site I read; by that point I couldn't take the game back if I wanted to. I would not describe myself as thrilled.They didn't put anything about limited activations on the box or in the press. I don't even think it's in the EULA. "Online activation required" was about it.
I'm in the software business. I pay for my games, I hate software pirates, and I understand the corporate thinking behind decisions like this. But there is a point of diminishing returns. How much does 2K have to pay to maintain the activation servers? How much do they have to pay SecuRom to use their software? How much money do they have to pay their tech support to handle the deluge of calls from a launch fiasco? Does that make up for the potential losses to pirates (remembering that each pirated copy != a lost sale), bad press, and outraged geeks? I'd love to see the actuarial analysis on that. :laugh4:
Zenicetus
08-30-2007, 00:51
I'm in the software business. I pay for my games, I hate software pirates, and I understand the corporate thinking behind decisions like this. But there is a point of diminishing returns. How much does 2K have to pay to maintain the activation servers? How much do they have to pay SecuRom to use their software? How much money do they have to pay their tech support to handle the deluge of calls from a launch fiasco? Does that make up for the potential losses to pirates (remembering that each pirated copy != a lost sale), bad press, and outraged geeks? I'd love to see the actuarial analysis on that. :laugh4:
We'd better hope they don't get too far into that type of analysis, because they'd eventually arrive at the conclusion that the only really good model is what Blizzard is doing with WoW -- a continuing income stream from monthly fees in addition to the box purchase, and half the game running on their servers that require authorized client accounts, so there are no piracy issues. It's really the perfect economic model for a game company, with the caveat that it has to be awfully compelling to get enough people to sign up for the monthly fees. Companies like 2K, CA, etc. must be looking at Blizzard with envy.
It would be the death of single-player games if they all worked like that. Few of the specialized, narrow-interest genres like strategy games or simulations would be popular enough (or good enough) for people to fork out a monthly fee on top of the box price.
OTOH.... what might work is if PC game companies just get rid of the $50 box, make the game downloadable, and charge by the month as a rental. Use a server/client setup like WoW so there are no piracy issues. Make the initial rental price steep... maybe $10 USD/month for the first 3 months, then it slides to $5/month for the next 4 months, and then it's free after that (but still requires some degree of server/client interaction for the authorization). Allow the player to quit at any time, and jump back in at whatever price tier they were at. It wouldn't work for all genres... obviously it's better for a game with sustained re-playability like strategy games and simulations, not so great for shooters where some people blast through them in a few days. But with some rate-juggling... maybe a very high rental for the first month of a shooter... it might work.
The game companies would save the cost of physical product distribution too, and we'd be contributing less crap to the landfills. You wouldn't have to jump through any hoops where you have to de-authorize a computer when doing a system upgrade. Just plug your account name and password into a screen on the new computer, and you're in. That's all I had to do with my WoW account after re-installing Windows recently. The back-end server (and needing it to run the game) is all the security Blizzard needs.
Well, it's just a thought. I'd prefer running the risk of not being able to play a classic game years from now, to the current nonsense where we have to keep track of authorizations and de-authorizations. It's bad enough I have to do that with Windows, iTunes, and Photoshop. I'm not going to do it on a regular basis for a game.
Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.
The activation has been cracked, if you believe what you read. There is also a no-CD crack making the rounds. What seems to be holding the bad guys up is the creation of some other bits that have to do with the latest version of SecuROM.
The activation is what cheesed off paying customers like me. And it's already down for the count. What a horrible implementation, 2K. What a dreadful mistake.
Please note that uninstalling the game will not get your license back, according to all reports I have read. That's why 2K/SecuROM will be issuing a license tool someday. In the meantime, guard your install jealously. There is a rather complicated way to back up your license, and it isn't official or approved, but it exists. Lots of mucking about in the registry, so it ain't for the faint of heart.
-edit-
I see Penny Arcade has another brilliant BioShock comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070829.jpg) up. This one contains two naughty words, but is very funny.
Ironside
08-31-2007, 09:40
The voice of the net is starting to get heard pretty far, this was in one of the major newspaper's review of Bioshock in Sweden.
Däremot finns det problem med kopieringsskyddet på PC-versionen, något som Ken Levine, "Bioshocks" pappa, lovat lösa.
Translated:
"On the other hand (refered before that the game works perfectly, no visible flaws) does it exist problems with the copy protection on the PC-version, something that Ken Levine, "Bioshocks daddy", promised to resolve.
Nothing much, but that's the first time I've seen copy protection even mentioned in a newspaper review.
And now the entire game has been cracked. From this moment on, paying customers like me are the only ones who have to endure product activation. I wish I could express my frustration level, but the gnashing of teeth can't be transmitted in ASCII text.
I will admit, it is impressive that it took a week and a half for the game to be cracked. Usually they appear on the torrent sites within 24 hours of release, sometimes even earlier. That actually concerns me a great deal. It seems that their protection method worked better than anything else that has been tried yet. That by itself may be enough to encourage companies to continue to do this kind of thing, despite the outrage from the legitimate consumers. In the long run, one game like this isn't going to cheese me off too much, but if it becomes a trend it will make me a very unhappy bovine.
I don't think it's a slippery slope fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy) to wonder about how this will play out when a majority of games require activation. Imagine, when you recycle your PC for grandma, needing to deactivate every installed game. Imagine the results of a motherboard failure. Imagine the results of a laptop theft.
That way madness lies.
doc_bean
09-05-2007, 15:51
I imagine that once a security system is cracked it's easy to crack again if it's applied to antoher game.
True, but I don't think we should have to break the law in order to keep our computers running properly.
What a great thread.
I was uncertain what the fuss was about this game being so good, so praised, and such, but I have finally tried the demo and I must admit it is impressive. Unfortunately I find this demo still poor due to confusion in battles (and a bit surprising as I expected a horror game that would scare me... then again fear is emotion and you know what I think and do about that).
And reading about SecuROM, hah... My main issue with copy protection is that they possibly reduce performance and damage hardware which is reason enough for me to not even get the game.
The graphics setup detects my system and sets it to High though I lower the resolution to 1024x768 or 800x600 and while it is very much playable outside a battle the system requirements are just too high. When a battle starts aiming is rendered sluggish. Lowering the settings doesn't make much difference or when it does it is too ugly and less atmospheric. Can't they just... ah never mind.
Regarding SecuROM... it seems it is also in the World in Conflict demo and I know that performance was severely decreased compared to the beta which apparantly didn't have SecuROM (?). I was forced to lower settings dramatically. It is at least possible that SecuROM influences it in this way.
And it is possible Bioshock COULD run smoother if it didn't have SecuROM installed.
I will deinstall this Bioshock demo, and after a while deinstall the WiC demo and then remove SecuROM. Is there any good tool available for this?
I will deinstall this Bioshock demo, and after a while deinstall the WiC demo and then remove SecuROM. Is there any good tool available for this?
That would be no. There is no SecuROM removal tool. There are, however, detailed instructions on how to remove the registry entries and hidden files which you can grab from their website.
As the issue has evolved, I've gotten much less stressed about SecuROM, though, and rather more angered by "product activation." I think that's where we need to draw a line in the sand.
Zenicetus
09-08-2007, 20:26
The graphics setup detects my system and sets it to High though I lower the resolution to 1024x768 or 800x600 and while it is very much playable outside a battle the system requirements are just too high. When a battle starts aiming is rendered sluggish. Lowering the settings doesn't make much difference or when it does it is too ugly and less atmospheric. Can't they just... ah never mind.
I was a little surprised at how important a smooth frame rate is, for combat in this game. There was a lot of advance hype about role-playing, storytelling, and controlling the environment. All that is in the game, but it still has some strong FPS elements. However, on reflection, System Shock 1 and 2 were hybrids like that too.
I have an older computer (Athlon 64 3800+, 2 Gigs RAM) and I started playing Bioshock with the original video card, a GeForce 6800 Ultra. The game was playable but the combat was frustrating when using guns. I was wasting a lot of ammo, and ammo isn't that plentiful if you aren't shooting well. There are ways to get through the game without focusing so much on guns and precise aiming, but it was still frustrating. So I upgraded to a new video card -- 8800 GTS, 320mb Ram, and that did the trick. Frame rates are very smooth now, even at high res (1600x1200). If you have an older computer like mine, then maybe all you need is a video card upgrade.
Regarding SecuROM... it seems it is also in the World in Conflict demo and I know that performance was severely decreased compared to the beta which apparantly didn't have SecuROM (?). I was forced to lower settings dramatically. It is at least possible that SecuROM influences it in this way.
And it is possible Bioshock COULD run smoother if it didn't have SecuROM installed.
As much as I've been bashing SecureRom in the M2TW:Kingdoms thread (mainly because CA/Sega is being silent about any removal tools), I don't think it affects the actual gameplay. I believe it only runs once at the start of the game to verify the disk, and in Bioshock's case, to check the system profile against number of allowed activations. During gameplay, it shouldn't be doing anything except taking up a tiny bit of RAM, which is probably inconsequential considering everything else the game is doing that eats RAM.
2K has said that they'll remove the activation limit for Bioshock at some point, after the initial sales period is over. I think they've also said they'll release a removal tool for SecureRom that can be used when you uninstall the game. That response from the publisher was enough for me to go ahead and buy Bioshock, but everyone will have to make up their own minds about that balance between wanting to play a hot game, and wanting security and control over your own computer.
Thanks for the informations.
And I probably need another video card. Better yet, I could've just kept my old X800 which would perform better though I am uncertain if it would allow Bioshock to run with all the effects.
Well, I sure am glad that I didn't buy this game either, given all that I've read and seen so far.
As for the limited installations, I think this falls under consumer rights and fair use. I realize what the distinction is between "licensing" something and "owning" it, but personally I disagree with those, and admit to 'breaking the law' constantly in my own house for private use. What I do with what I bought for my own personal use is none of anyone else's business. Period. End of discussion.
In terms of activation, I've been saying this for years now. :wall: Game publisher and developer rights MUST end somewhere, and I believe that point is when it comes to my OWN personal computer. I do not believe it is right, in fact I think it should be illegal to, ask or require someone to give up control over their property in order to make use of something they've bought. Activation, "calling home", etc, all tools that reduce my ability to use what I've paid for freely for personal use. Here again we see why I hate Steam and refuse to install it again. Not only do I have to uniquely identify myself to the game publisher so I can 'ask permission' every time I want to play, but the same applies whenever the games are patched.
Installed it on my laptop, but the graphics are really slow ...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/1270578639_2f849d2a44.jpg
Kekvit Irae
09-20-2007, 20:09
Installed it on my laptop, but the graphics are really slow ...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/1270578639_2f849d2a44.jpg
You need to update your video card. I'm only seeing black and white there. :tongueg:
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