Blackhole economics, escaping massive debt, my apologies, long post

[gaijinalways]

I was surprised in my recent English GA campaign. I was romping along with a good chunk of the map, across southern Europe and a good chunk of the desert plains through to Tripoli. Then I found myself separated at Croatia (had a thin link through from Britany to Venice to Constanople and beyond after I kicked the Byz and the Eggys out)) and my high influence king died off and a new king reemerged out East while at the same time the Spanish broke a treaty and attacked my navy.

Suddenly, I drop from a comfortable income to being massively in the hole. I manage to fight back, droppping 4 provinces due to rebellion ( Mercia, Provance, Britany, and Champagne). All of them keep rebelling with loyalists, so I think it's a matter of time before I can retake them. Then the Argonese remerge in Aquitane.

Now, I accidentally get excommed as I forgot the pope warned me not to fight (he means stop holing up in the castle in Aquitane). But I am looking at some ripe pope lands, and figuring, hey why not take the pope down a few pegs, I'll lose some men (lower my costs), raze his buildings, and keep attacking the Spanish for a bit longer, until I have exacted and vanguished their navy (nearly there, now if I can only destroy all their ports and shipbuilding capacity, I'll really be gold).

My question is , when you suddenly go in the hole, how do you get out? Before the last redo bit part, I was some 6k in the hole, with big expenses (maybe close to 4k yearly), so redoing my empire by wacking the Spanish will be helpful (both ends as the Spanish expanded across wiping out the Alomonds and the Eggys).

Any other suggestions, beyond the usual restoring my trade, reducing the mercs (who gladly sacrifise themselves to ensure my victories, if not there is always the reload menu:2thumbsup: ), and cutting the fat off lands I take over (also possibly razing my own to release some troops for outward conquering)?

I also already manage my own rents as I find I can do better than the AI automanaging can. Also manage to shuffle some peasants around when it helps keep the peace and some money flowing in. I almost wonder, should put my no stars king in a few battles (may be tough, some good AI generals about in I think it's 1222)? Of course I would build where he is (now settled back west in Genoa, but since I have no cash, I as yet can't build anything.

I think I plan to keep hacking the Spanish down and taking some buildings while keeping my borders intact. They still have a decent amount of troops, though I notice they tend to be a bit short on missile types, so if I can delay contact, I am usually okay a s my later all out charges go aganist slightly depleted and demoralized troops. If I can damage their more productive provinces the resulting cash flow will be a big boon. I can ignore the HRE at the moment as they were severely damaged when they refused my constant offers of peace. Poland is weak, the Byz damaged, and the Danish/scandanavians are growing, though still not that big yet (the HRE and the BYz are my buffers at the moment.

Eventually my cash position should improve, but just looking for any short cuts that might help. I know I could also sacrifise some of my own buildings that I don't use in certain provinces, though I don't know if the resulting savings make it worth while.

So any ideas out of the economic hole that you have tried or tested? My tech is good, plenty of troops, though my turf is a large area. Believe I am still ahead on GA points after a few crusades (still have 2 markers ready and waiting) and all the territory I took. That's also another idea, give up spme ground that I raze my buildings out east and take the released troops aganist the Danes/Scandanaians? Maybe another possibility after I finish hassling the Spanish.

[highlanddave]

even though you are thinking of trying to improve your king by using him as a general i would not do it. when the king is used as a general it automatically calculates him as the max distance to his provinces. if you are really large like it appears, that could lead to rebellion or even civil war if he loses a battle or two. i would keep him centered in your kingdom and in a port province. that way he is maximized closeness to your provinces when connected by fleets.

i would concentrate on getting your kings influence high by winning battles.

i would disband as many mercenaries as possible, maybe back out of low paying provinces such as scotland that also need big garrisons, etc. and concentrate on trade. when you let some provinces rebel and then take them back you get money for capturing the prisoners and get experience for your general and somewhat improve the kings influence.

see the econ 101 thread, too:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=32726

[macsen rufus]

Depends on how many mercs you have handy, but a route to quick cash if you can see a way is generally to throw a BIG army at an enemy king. If he can't win he'll abandon the province rather than hole up. Raze the province for cash, then retreat with the winnings. If you can't afford to train new troops, now might be a good time to "rationalise" your training provinces. Keep the really good teched up ones and your valour bonus provinces should be stripped down to produce ONLY the "bonus" troop type. How's your navy? If you have control of the seas deploy the ships for max trade benefit and "loyalty links". If you don't have full control, hit enemy navy ASAP so you do have :2thumbsup: I agree the time is probably ripe for you to help yourself to some of the Pope's baubles. If you're excommed already, what do you have to lose? Of course, assasinating the Pope to get re-commed would help your loyalty levels and free up forces to use elsewhere.

Whatever you decide, you'll be able to look back and say "that was an INTERESTING period in the Empire's history" :laugh4:

Also as highlanddave says, it's probably a bad time to send the king into battle. You can't afford any more loyalty knocks right now. Any besieged allies you can rescue - that's always good for an easy influence boost.

[gaijinalways]

My navy is close to commanding as I am slowly wiping out the few Spanish ships left. I plan to further raid Spanish provinces with buildings (for cash), but also to take down harbors and shipyards. Right now I am trading with very few nations by sea as the Spanish are spread across Africa and the BYz are at war too, and my fleet doesn't go far enough North to trade with the Scandanadians and the Polish (who might not have a seaport anyway), though I could change this to get more access to the Black sea, a little repositioning of my navy after Spain's navy sinks, but I would still like to reach Denmark.

Yes, I am considering dumping some unnecessary buildings for the cash and to cut my support costs. Also, the raiding is useful to cut Spain's chances of annoying me again by ripping though their buildings to stop them from rebuilding a navy, other troops, and giving me cash (from the buildings and possible ransom). I plan to cut the mercs as their numbers dwindle, may even cut some earlier that are small in unit numbers.

Yes, I have some provinces that my loyalists are tieing up the enemy in, as well as the Argonese, who should be recrushed soon enough when they get greedy and attack me from their lone province (the one that I carelessly let excom me when I left my soldiers in the castle too long, but since I won a convincing battle that turn with some 1500 dead out of 2400 versus my 300 or so, I am loath to go back and replay it).

[macsen rufus]

Sounds like your strategy is pretty sound, it's just a matter of slugging through the necessary pools of blood now :2thumbsup: And I know exactly what you mean about refighting that battle -- a glorious victory is great once, but I also hate re-fighting them. It never quite works out so well the second time....

[gunslinger]

I wouldn't disband mercs or sell buildings. You don't get much cash for buildings anyway. If you want to get rid of mercs, make an army out of them and attack! Even if you lose, you should be able to do some pretty serious damage to the enemy while lowering your own costs.

You can always take those mercs, along with any outdated troops still on your roster, and make them the first line of units for a battle in hilly country. Put out 13 of those kind of units as well as your general, one spear, and one unit of bows. Set up those three units on a hill near the edge, and let the other 13 charge straight up the mountain into the enemy. Try to engage as many enemy as possible (no double teaming or flanking). Your "throwaway units will rout soon enough, and the enemy units will then tire out while chasing them all over them map, while "eliminating" some of your overhead for you. As your units rout off, you bring in your "keeper" units from the reserve and line them up on the hill with your general, spears and archers. The enemy units that have been chasing your throwaways will probably now attack your fresh units who are sitting on a hill in a nice defensive formation. After you destroy them, you are free to march your army across the map and mop up the scattered enemies.

You should kill a boatload of enemy units this way while you only lose units that you didn't really want anyway.

[gaijinalways]

Interesting idea gunslinger, though it depends on the terrain and your general not routing. I may give it a go. I still tend to disabnd merc units that are very depleted unless I use them as a harassment unit or if that's all I have.

[gaijinalways]

Well, I have managed to get out of the hole, but as yet my economy is still bleeding money. I accidentally earlier got excommed (stayed in a castle one turn too long). Took the pope down, but now have some other problems with lost turf and continuing lost trade (and got some cash:laugh4: ). Need to reconsolidate, though am currently attacking and damaging Spanish territory to raise money and whip down my mercs. Alos heading off the Spanish armies on my other side as well.

Have about 6k in the bank, but still my economy is overheated. Been using most of my merc units to try and whittle down the enemy units.

[gaijinalways]

An update, back in the black again. managed to seal off my borders except for provance and dump my mercs. Building up my navy as I take the Sopanish down. Used my old ploy, attack, raze, move on to the next province. I often like to leave a castle and occupy it with a small unit of 5 men or less, because often the AI will hesitate before sieging. You can keep the AI from building for quite some time, thus removing a higher income producing province and a source of fighting units.

My games often seem to cycle this way, but this game featured a bigger drop then I have seen before when my trade was snapped off suddenly.

[Martok]

Good job, gaijinalways. Way to battle your way back to profitability! ~:cheers:

[Csargo]

Cheat.

[gaijinalways]

Not sure if it's a cheat, but rather using a tactic that takes advantage of the AI logic. Though, to be honest, it doesn't always work, as sometimes the AI sieges in short order depending on the castle's defenses and if the AI has siege engines.

Out of places where I did this (Leon, Castille, and Syria), Syria fell quickly, Leon fell twice and Castille fell and then was retaken (happened when the Spanish attacked me again in Navarre and Aragon, nice victories for me too).

I am still surprised by the AI on occasion in battles, and I don't always get easy battles, still challenging. :2thumbsup: Something that makes MTW a very enjoyable game, its replayability.:2thumbsup:

[professorspatula]

I'm glad you managed to find a way to escape your debt, whereas my Italian faction's ecomony is fast plunging into horror! Seemingly reliant mainly on sea trade, I was more interested in building up a massive trade fleet and controlling just a few provences here and there than total domination. But after being excommunicated when I wouldn't give up a provence to a tiny Spanish crusade army that had been retreating continuously for 10 years before I took the region out of frustration, things have gone nightmare-ish. My large 90K treasury and 10K a turn profit plunged to +3K a turn, then +2K. But I was able to keep the trade routes going, although I was constructing so many buildings and troops, that I was really losing about 6K a year. Then the Turks launched a couple of assaults in the same turn, which I fought off, but then the French joined in the 'lets make the Italians suffer' game. With most of my trading partners gone, and trade routes blocked off, suddenly I am losing 10,000+ florins a turn!

I realise now that continuously training about 20 units a turn was a bit much, and construction of new non-profit making buildings have been halted. But I just can't make any new friends or barter for a much needed ceasefire with anyone so I can claw back some trade. My king has maximum influence, but that carries no weight it seems. Princesses, emissionaries et al are useless too. I really didn't want to take over large chunks of land in this campaign, but with my ridiculous sized army (about 20-25 thousand in size for a medium unit scale setting) unless I disband about half of them, I'm going to have to go on a blitz campaign and see how much land I can grab in the hope of thinning out their ranks whilst gaining more income. Fortunately I had the sense to keep about 40 ships in the seas to tackle enemy navies, because they're the lifeblood of my faction. I even decided to leave the papacy homeless just so the excommunication would end so I could hopefully regain some reputation with my fellow Christians.

I fully expect to be staring at large figures in red text for quite some time! What a shame you can't trade within your own faction. Bah!

[gaijinalways]

Conduct a 'scorched earth' policy on provinces where you can raze the most buildings and you will fare okay, especially if you still have florins to spend. Don't worry about adding provinces to your empire, just cripple your enemies' chances of building up their military and other units by wiping the buildings clean. If you can, improve your farming in the provinces you already have, especially where it will return the most, this will boost your non-trade income. By attacking, any soldiers you lose will cut your expenses, and always take prisoners but don't execute them as some will be ransomed back, again generating some income.

If you must, sacrifise some provinces to save money and to consolidate your position if they are provinces that are difficult to keep (border-wise, loyalty-wise, etc.).

I managed to get out of the hole, and am now having to do the same again as the HRE, the BYZ, and the Spanish still all refuse to make even a cease fire with me after 20 years. But managed to hold onto my empire and am making the Spanish suffer again:2thumbsup: (with the HRE maybe being next once the pope's 10-year-warning period lapses)!

[Kralizec]

To avoid situation like these, I always upgrade farming even while I'm making in tons of cash from trading. As you know when you're at war with an AI faction with lots of ships they'll often (deliberately?) disrupt your trade routs. Having lots of farms and maybe some gold/silver mining to fall back on eases the pain.

A tip: if you wipe out the Spanish fleet and have no land bordering them, retreat your ships to waters that don't border their land. If you have no land contact with them and keep it that way for one turn your diplomatic stance with them should revert to neutral and you can start trading with them again (I hope you didn't raze their ports!)

[professorspatula]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm beginning to reduce my yearly losses though. The Spanish have suddenly fallen into complete disarray, with a small civil war causing a few provences to rebel, and the Aragonese have really been having a go at the Spanish which at least allowed me to have an ally. It's actually great to see the Aragonese do something - they have 3 provences, almost 4 if they take Castille. To further destroy the Spanish, the Almohads returned with a large force which threatens to engulf the Aragonese and some northern African regions which I have my eyes on. Further good news for me was the Turks, my other major concern have been severly weakened after also falling into civil war. It seems going to war with my faction doesn't bode well for the monarchy of the aggressor faction. And then the Byzantines returned too in Turkish lands, with some of the Turkish civil war stacks suddenly turning purple/Byzantine. It's funny seeing muslim units declare themselves part of a Christian faction. I'm slightly concerned the Byzantines will have a go at my regions as my forces are fairly thin along that part of Asia minor.

My fleets are actually bigger than I first thought. I had about 70 ships before the war began, of which about 60 are still left. They've all but destroyed the last few French and Spanish ships, but the enemy do keep escaping and disrupting trade, but I'm sure they'll be nothing but flotsam and jetsam before long.

I do actually build lots of farms as well when I can. I was concentrating on the most profitable buildings before I went to war, so I have a few Merchant guilds, 60-80% farms etc. Farming in Antioch alone is bringing in 1224 florins! I just have a crazy sized army and navy eating into the profits. Regarding scorched earth policy, this is something I stay away from. I like to keep regions teched up even if the AI take control. It's bad enough many parts of the world end up being stuck with just a fort and a watch tower even after 300 years, without me making things worse for a few bucks.

Actually being consumed by debt has made things interesting as opposed to drowning in cash. Now I'm having to reorganise all my forces again instead of just churning out more and more of them. Quite a few regions had loads of cavalry but no archers, or lots of infantry but no cavalry. Now I'm sending armies I'd forgotten about into battles with no real concern if they win or not!

One thing I'm concerned about though - is there any loyalty problems that occur if your treasury is negative for a large number of years? It still could be a while to turn the -5000 income into positive figures again. And when my king croaks it in a few years, no doubt civil war could be a possibility.

[gaijinalways]

Being in debt does a number on your provinces' loyalty ratings, sometimes pushing some over to the rebels. Breaking contact with an enemy is not always easy, though sometimes you can do it if you can cause rebellions in bordering lands.

Prof, you are in better shape than me as I don't have a large cash surplus and my farming is not as developed as yours. I am actually doing something interesting now:idea2: , opening up some channels to some enemies, hoping they will engage. That is why I am letting the Argonese through Navarre to contact the Spanish, and also allowing the Spanish contact with the Golden Horde near Trebozoid.

Unlike yourself, I have no reservations about stripping places down, since it is a GA conquest campaign. I am not interested in expanding my empire further, making my goals and trying to restart trading again is more in my interests than whether many provinces on the map are developed are not, especially if those provinces are in enemy hands:inquisitive: .

[professorspatula]

I hardly had a large cash surplus, I was about 30,000 in debt in the end. I ended up finishing off the last few French and Spanish fleets which immediately saw me making a +5500 profit again! What a difference it makes to rule the seas. I managed to also see off a large Pope army that re-emerged, and it will be another 4 years or so all going well until I'm back in profit. I don't think I'll be training quite so many troops again in the future though!

[gaijinalways]

Ouch, I stand corrected. Though since my neighbors (the HRE, the BYZ, and the Spanish) all refuse to even a cease fire, my trade is minimal. Thus, while I have money in the bank now (some 7.6 k), I am expanding my farming so that I can support my reduced soldiers (mercs and regulars alike) as they ravage the pope (excommed again) and the Spanish.

[gaijinalways]

Have managed to expand further, was up to 27k, now back down to 12k, but have increased my farming and started building additional buildings as well with a slight revenue increase each turn. Still have quite a few soldiers, but again, it's now 1263 and still no treaties with the Byz, the HRE, and the Spanish. Now I am a good boy for a few years now, but the Spanish attacked me, (and after I had attacked the pope earlier, even the peaceful poles attacked me:furious3: ). Oh well.

So remember, I surrendered some provinces (though picked up some new ones after I disposed of the pope, Sicily and Malta, retook Nothumbria, probably will retake Aquitaine soon too, maybe provance if I have a chance), ravaged the Spanish everywhere, and slowly built up my farming. The decrease in troops of course also saved money, late just general defense, had a nice defense recently aganist the Spanish, killed 1557 to my 500 gone, but later on in the battle had almost no missile troops (except 2 xbows, one got too blood lusty:skull: , ran off and got semi-slaughtered:wall: ) in my 1200 plus aganist the Spanish 2000 plus. The only units I was later producing were agents; spies, priests, and 1 emissary.

[professorspatula]

Good to see you're continuing your campaign. I seldom ever bother with crossbows though - I find them inferior to Arbalesters and their slow rate of fire makes me prefer archers over them.

I'm actually giving up my campaign. There aren't any powers left in the game. They're all weak and stupid. The French and Spanish were powerful until they messed with me, and then they went into civil war and are now weak as kittens. Most other factions are bankrupt or have very little cash and tend to build pointless things when they should be trying to boost their ecomony. I actually ended up switching between factions and forced the Hungarians to build a couple of farms just to give them some cash. I also took control of the neutral Scilian and Danish fleets and moved them into a position where they could trade, although they still had no money to build trading posts so I gave up on those. The only force to fear is the Papacy who boringly returns with massive armies, but I can't be bothered to fight him again. I can't really see a point in continuing with the campaign where even though I still have no money, there's no-one left with the ability to put up much resistance. I've been meaning to try out a mod, so perhaps I'll try one of them now.

[gaijinalways]

Is that a GA campaign? Seems to make a difference or me, find it more interesting than just straight conquest.

[professorspatula]

Yea it's a GA campaign, and I'm winning. Sometimes you can get really good campaigns other times not so good ones. This wasn't really a great campaign. I was going to continue my Sicilian campaign, but I realised that was a conquest campaign and I'm not really interested in conquering the world. The good thing about that campaign was there were some large powers in the world - like the Egyptians who seemed to have taken control of the entire East side of the map up to Constantinople which I controlled.

I'm thinking of trying the XL mod out and now seems as good a time as any (before M2TW comes out basically!)