View Full Version : New faction Preview - The Byzantine Empire
Hochmeister
09-14-2006, 03:15
On IGN
http://pc.ign.com/articles/732/732632p1.html
Yay:2thumbsup:
kinda figured they'd have built constantinople up a little more...not much in the city at the moment. plus we see the flaw in the city/castle set-up with constantinople. one of the largest cities of its time, one of--if not the--richest, yet its displayed as a castle because otherwise it wouldn't be good for producing soldiers. hmph.
A. Smith
09-14-2006, 03:47
Well, if im not mistaken, castles CAN reach huge ammounts of population; its only that their income wont be up to par with the city's income. However, i do agree that the castle/city system is a tad restrictive.. maybe give a 5/6th stage of devellopment, where the 2 trees "fuse" (IE a huge city-type settlement at that stage will be the same as a huge castle-type settlement). For exemple, constantinople would reach that stage: Big enough in population to be an important trade center, yet heaviliy fortified.
However, i think that the castle/city system works pretty well overall; after all, the most heavily fortified cities in the middle ages werent the most populated (think of the knights' Krak in syria compared to cities like london or paris)
Darth Nihilus
09-14-2006, 03:48
I'm pleased so far with the Byzantine units. In the original game the Byzantines were one of the factions that had a truly unique unit roster. They will be a lot of fun to play as, and are no doubt one of the most popular factions if not the most popular faction. Looks good:2thumbsup:
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/732/732632/medieval-ii-total-war-20060913060416979.jpg
There baaaaaaack! Sword armed Byzantine infantry.
redriver
09-14-2006, 04:49
I don't like the conehead icons representin' the city happeness. they should switch to smilies :focus:
The Blind Samurai
09-14-2006, 05:02
cool prieview id prfer a muslim update
Only four starting territories? THat'll make for an interesting game, especially with the units becoming outdated eventually. :juggle2:
IrishArmenian
09-14-2006, 06:28
Yay!!! Varangian Guards. All I need now is a Eunic General and I'm set.
There baaaaaaack! Sword armed Byzantine infantry.
I fear that was inevitable, given CAs insistance on swords vs spears as a rock vs paper kind of distinction.
However, the Byzantine unit roster seems more authentic than the original MTW one. Particularly, regarding the importance of Western mercenaries (armed from mail to plate - I wonder how that will be modelled?). I also like the dismounted lancers and dismounted Western mercenaries - in the medieval period, some of the best infantry should actually be dismounted cavalry, so it is nice to see them being represented explicitly and systematically.
The guard archers were interesting - given the Scots Guard unit for the French, I suspect most factions are going to have elite armoured archers.
On Constantinople being a castle, that was in the preview but it was not obvious from the screenshot, which described the settlement as a large city.
lancelot
09-14-2006, 12:05
I only want one thing from MTW2- and that is the ceremonial Varangian Guards from the original MTW. They may not be historical but damn they were cool!
Mount Suribachi
09-14-2006, 12:29
cool prieview id prfer a muslim update
patience precious.....this is only the 2nd faction preview.......
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
09-14-2006, 12:32
I couldn't read someting about arquebusiers or crossbows. If this is true, they are difficult to use in high or late era.
I couldn't read someting about arquebusiers or crossbows. If this is true, they are difficult to use in high or late era.
Yes, that seems to be what CA mean when they say the Byzantine military start to become dated. They also lack three of the types of field artillery that the Russian preview had.
There are deficiencies elsewhere in the late game line up - e.g. an absence of full plate (except the Western mercenaires) and no pikemen.
King Noob the Stupid
09-14-2006, 13:25
It's not important, just a tiny detail, but it looks like faction leaders don't get a "number" assigned by the game in M2, so for example the byz emperor on the screenie is just "Alexius" instead of "Alexius I." as in original MTW. Or are there leaders with numbers on other pics seen so far?
There is something special about the Byzantine Infantry in MTW, despite them being to intents and purposes legionary like fantasy units. I have mixed feelings at seeing them return for M2TW however and hoped for a more authentic cavalry and foot archer specific unit roster.
I ... hoped for a more authentic cavalry and foot archer specific unit roster.
I agree on the Byzantine infantry, but what in particular would you like to have seen on the cavalry and archer front? It does at least sound that these - rather than pseudo-legions - will be the mainstay of the Byzantine army:
Throughout the campaign it will be the Byzantine cavalry and missile troops that will be crucial to success in battle.
azraeltheFallen
09-14-2006, 14:14
Yep i agree in MTW you could take an army of 1000 Byzantine infantry and conquer the entire middle east easily, which was onlikely to happent in "real life".
The Blind Samurai
09-14-2006, 14:40
patience precious.....this is only the 2nd faction preview.......
well i guess your right but can you belevie it one and a quter month till m2tw:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
King Noob the Stupid
09-14-2006, 15:08
1 and a quarter? Wouldn't it be late October then? I thought the game is scheduled for about November 14th in the US and some weeks later in the rest of the world.
I fear that was inevitable, given CAs insistance on swords vs spears as a rock vs paper kind of distinction.
I don't mind as they get a decent spear unit this time.
However, the Byzantine unit roster seems more authentic than the original MTW one. Particularly, regarding the importance of Western mercenaries (armed from mail to plate - I wonder how that will be modelled?). I also like the dismounted lancers and dismounted Western mercenaries - in the medieval period, some of the best infantry should actually be dismounted cavalry, so it is nice to see them being represented explicitly and systematically.
That will be handled via armour upgrades. CA has said that doing armour/weapon upgrades will mean that some units will get all new wepaons/armour. This may be CA's way of getting around that Byz units will be passed by eventually. As many of their units seem to have a "start with a very light armour and move into a much heavier type as time goes on" element to them.
The guard archers were interesting - given the Scots Guard unit for the French, I suspect most factions are going to have elite armoured archers.
On Constantinople being a castle, that was in the preview but it was not obvious from the screenshot, which described the settlement as a large city.
The Byz seem to have 4 levels of melee/archer infantry combinations. Peasant (peasants, peasant archers), militia (militia spears, militia archers), normal professionals (Byz spearmen and Trebizond archers), and guard (Varangian and gurad archers).
Nathanael
09-14-2006, 15:29
Well, at least the Byzantine Infantry don't have the Roman-esque shields they did in the last game - they basically look like a bunch of low-grade men-at-arms.
Another thing you might have missed - if you go to the screenshots added, they're not all just of the Byzantines, as you'll see some cannon elephants close up and in all their glory. The cannons do look rather tiny, so it's not that outrageous.
Maybe I've missed the discussion being mostly gone this week, but I wonder if anyone noticed this quote from the unit preview...
Byzantine Spearmen are a step up from spear militias, better trained and equipped these troops are able to form a defensive ring.
Are there other references to this defensive ring for units elsewhere, or is this the first time such a formation has been mentioned? It seems like I remember a (very brief) discussion in a thread about three weeks ago on this, but I can't find it.
Furious Mental
09-14-2006, 18:38
I'm no expert on the Byzantine military but by the time it fell completely in the late 15th century wasn't it heavily reliant on Latin mercenaries?
Beelzebub
09-15-2006, 03:40
Also disappointed by cities so far..maybe everything isn't complete yet in that area, we have seen some cool pics of some customised locations (Krak Des Chevaliers), perhaps the lack of others (Rome, Venice, Constantinpole) is due to unfinished artwork. Even some custom city icons on the map would add a lot of atmosphere, hopefully they arent restricted by the engine in this area.
ChewieTobbacca
09-15-2006, 07:34
I'm happy to see that the Byzantine composition is more realistic now - their units not only have more authentic names, but they are more reliant on cavalry and archers, including western mercenary units.
Looks very promising.
batu khan
09-15-2006, 14:36
i liked the byzantine infantery.i will enjoy killing them:)
edyzmedieval
09-15-2006, 23:47
Apart from Byzantine infantry and the Guard Archers, everything is historically correct. Good job CA.
:2thumbsup:
Very nice preview. The Byzantine faction should be as much fun to play as the first MW. I have read the other posts talking about the Byzantine Infantry and the Viking Guards, but no mention of the cavalry units. The cavalry units available to the Byzantines were a treat to play.
cutepuppy
09-16-2006, 12:00
Apart from Byzantine infantry and the Guard Archers, everything is historically correct. Good job CA.
:2thumbsup:
the guard archers are also historically correct - to a certain extent. They were called mourtatoi and were elite archers around 1300.
Little Legioner
09-16-2006, 12:47
Yes Murtaroi archers were exist in Byzantine army but however Varangian guards is not like Nordic or Slavic fashion except battle axe. They look like more typical not extraordinary.
Byzantine Empire gonna be good challange for my Turkish armies. Romanus Diogenes shall go his home without an army but the Sultans escorts :laugh4:
Video looks good. but i want longer videos preview. :idea2:
edyzmedieval
09-16-2006, 17:10
the guard archers are also historically correct - to a certain extent. They were called mourtatoi and were elite archers around 1300.
Thank you for the information. I was totally unaware. :tongue: (sarcastic)
Call them Mourtatoi for Gods sake not Guard Archers.
I was totally unaware. :tongue: (sarcastic)
No need to get snappy. I for one was totally unaware.
thanks, cutepuppy :2thumbsup:
The Spartan (Returns)
09-16-2006, 18:43
is it just me or is the enviroment much more realistic and prettier?
is it just me or is the enviroment much more realistic and prettier?
It's not just you,it's true :laugh4: :2thumbsup:
Specialist290
09-16-2006, 23:44
Incidentally, has anyone pondered the potential for a double meaning in the subtitle of the article, "No More Playing Second Fiddle To Rome"?
Underdog687
09-17-2006, 08:54
they look quite fun to play, i never played MTW. might try them 2nd after the english.
The Wizard
09-17-2006, 13:19
Regarding these faction previews... remember the runup to MTW's release, and the awesome story/fanfic piece they had on IGN back then?
I think the link's still somewhere on the .com (or was before the restyling), but it would be nice to see a revival of that.
Lord Comnenus
09-23-2006, 08:57
you know what the kataphractoi's lances suck! i mean hell they aaare short and the apearance looks like a heavily armed urban militia on horses!
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-25-2006, 17:38
What? Those lances are about 12 feet long!
What concerns me here is the total lack of arbalasts. Are you seriously telling me they didn't have any.
Although I suppose it matters less with the new Merc system, as I'll be well into Western Europe by then.
Well, at least the Byzantine Infantry don't have the Roman-esque shields they did in the last game - they basically look like a bunch of low-grade men-at-arms.
Actually MTW Byzantine Infantry looked very much like these guys, yes they even had the same triangular shields. They didn't lug rectangular scuta around.
But I wonder where the semi-famed Scutatoi are, however at at least there is some spearmen better than the lowest rung.
Randarkmaan
09-25-2006, 21:22
What concerns me here is the total lack of arbalasts. Are you seriously telling me they didn't have any.
I don't think the Byzantines would have arbalests, anyway crossbows never really popular were with the Byzantines before the late middle-ages.
Incidentally, has anyone pondered the potential for a double meaning in the subtitle of the article, "No More Playing Second Fiddle To Rome"?
<obscure joke warning>
Ermm... that toward the end of the game we'll get an early King George III, and he will play the fiddle while the French burn London down?
</warning>
The Wizard
09-25-2006, 22:23
What concerns me here is the total lack of arbalasts. Are you seriously telling me they didn't have any.
That would be realistic, considering the fact that, in the East, the composite, recurved bow was the mainstay of the archery.
A pity we aren't seeing the mounted core that formed the tagmata (singular tagmaton; Byzantine field army), the pillar of the Byzantine military. No frontiersmen either? Surprising, knowing CA's tendency towards Romanticesque units.
Would have liked a sort of special mercenary recruitment system for the Byzantines, but this'll do. It won't really make a difference between unreliable mercenary and regular Byzantine soldier on the battlefield, but... meh.
A pity we aren't seeing the mounted core that formed the tagmata (singular tagmaton; Byzantine field army), the pillar of the Byzantine military.
What's the mounted core you think we are missing? I'm just curious because there seems to be a bucket load of types on page 3 of the preview - more than MTW, IIRC. Do none of them fit the bill?
The main omission to me would seem to be armoured spearmen - the scutatoi that Kraxis commented about.
Lord Comnenus
09-26-2006, 10:15
the lances suck because they look western, the mtw kat was better because there lances were like spears
Just a historical footnote, in the Byzantine Empire, cataphracted cavalry (not infantry) was the main arm of the army; not in numbers, but in that the decision rested with the cavalry, not the infantry. This was analogous to the knights and men at arms relationship in Western Europe. When the Cataphracts were defeated (as at Manzikert) the rest of the army was easily swept away.
Polemists
10-02-2006, 08:47
I'm not historical buff, but I have a friend who is. Anyway my understanding of crossbows is originally no one liked them. The pope even made them illegal at some point. Most considered it a shameful weapon, so I'm pretty sure no one is starting with arbalest, though i could be wrong. I'm sure eventually many factions will have crossbow units tho.
Thank you for the information. I was totally unaware. :tongue: (sarcastic)
Call them Mourtatoi for Gods sake not Guard Archers.
I agree. CA is very inconsistent about calling units either their real names or inventing some Westernized name for them. I'd rather they call them by their real names. This 50/50 thing is kinda weird.
Hmm, to your eyes...
Does the Byzantine military units look fare to you than it was in MTW?
They look excellent, but still, it needs some work.
Like aren't the Kataphracts supposed to have a chain mailed helmet covering the eyes?
And wasn't there some heavy cavalry armed with maces that were used by the Eastern Romans?
BaldwinIV
10-07-2006, 10:23
They look excellent, but still, it needs some work.
Like aren't the Kataphracts supposed to have a chain mailed helmet covering the eyes?
And wasn't there some heavy cavalry armed with maces that were used by the Eastern Romans?
Yes, great disappointment for me...
The Kataphraktoi in MTW looked far better... :embarassed:
Peasant Phill
10-09-2006, 08:43
their appearance changes when their armour is upgraded. So it isn't impossible that the upgraded Katapractoi will have the chain mail eye protectors.
BaldwinIV
10-09-2006, 14:59
their appearance changes when their armour is upgraded. So it isn't impossible that the upgraded Katapractoi will have the chain mail eye protectors.
Very good news for me!
Thanks :2thumbsup:
Basilios II Voulgaroktonos
10-16-2006, 20:54
First of all sorry for my english!!!Well lads i am greek and(and an expert in greek history)first of all the byzantine infantry is not correct cause the byzantine troops of the dynasty <<KOMNHNOI>>were pure greek or from other parts of the empire only!!!they were not mercenaries as described here.it is true that the emperor was giving the troops a small part of land near the border to motivate them more to fight the enemies of the empire.Second the byzantines lost in matzikert because the STUPID emperor Romanos Diogenis made one terrible mistake.he disbanded the byzantine troops(who were in that time the most effective force of the mediterranian,very well trained and disiplined mainly by emperor Basilios II Bulgarslayer)and hired mercenaries to defend the empire.and as everybody knows they fight only for gold,not to defend until their death adn fight braively.and he went to counter the Turks with this army.thats why we lost in matzikert.and 3rd the katafraktoi if not disbanded they were enforced of mercenaries thats why they lost also by the turks.and i am not sure if the guard archers realy existed!4th i saw pikemen.and last the byzantine foot soldiers did not have triangular shields,they had shield like the ancient roman leagions because the model of the byzantine army was the roman legion!Thx for listening
last the byzantine foot soldiers did not have triangular shields,they had shield like the ancient roman leagions because the model of the byzantine army was the roman legion!Thx for listening
There's a Bulgarian mural at Zemen, dating to 1354-60, which shows Byzantine infantry with a triangular shield. Quite a number show the cavalry with similar. Even the ancient Roman legions changed their shields over time - they tended to be oval, not the rectangular ones we know from Augustus, by the fall of the Western Empire.
Basilios II Voulgaroktonos
10-16-2006, 22:19
i dont know about the mural but i know tha they were not properly triangoled like the western europes shields and the katafraktoi MAYBE hade a triangular shield because it serves good the cavalry but i am sure that they model of the byzantine army was that of the ancient roman.and thats why eventually the byzantine armament was a bit out of age in 1300 and later!!!at least i think you agree with the other parts
Basilios II Voulgaroktonos
10-17-2006, 15:48
A pity we aren't seeing the mounted core that formed the tagmata (singular tagmaton; Byzantine field army).
hey where did you learn greek.This is a very interesting language but its not greek:wall: the sigular is Tagma and the plural is Tagmata.Tagmaton maybe is in an other language...:laugh4:
Basilios II Voulgaroktonos
10-17-2006, 16:33
If constantinople was a city and not a castle there were not any balance betwen the Byzantines and the Turks but anyone is free to change it from a castle to city.The Varangian Guard really existed.They were sent by the Russ in the late 10th century to help the byzantines.They were the personalguard of the emperor and the palace in Constantinople.The byzantines did not have crossbows or gunpowder except of some cannons so its correct that CA did not put any...For the armour if i am not mistaken you can upgrade it so that you can reach the plate and also in western europe in early age they dont have units with plate armour.After the 14th century yes the byzantine army was consisted exqlusively of mercs but before and in the reign of Alexios I Komnhnos,Ioannhs II Komnhnos and Emanuhl I Komnhnos the army was cosisted of byzantine troops.And end i am not sure if the Mourtatoi ever existed!
Prince Cobra
10-19-2006, 21:24
The preview was really interesting. However I am not very sure whether they had to emphasize on how much Byzantium was a shadow of Roman Empire. After all the idea of superiority was extremely strong ( theoretically alive until thed death of the Empire in 1453) and was very important during the reign of Emp. Manuel I Comnenus ( 1143 -1180). I think they should not have emphisized on the weakness of the Empire so much. It should be discovered by the player himself. The player should have the feeling of superiority which should be both good but very dangerous. Just small insignificant detail. Otherwise I liked the Preview. And yes the removing of the gunpowder units is really historically accurate.
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