New unit:mongol heavy archers [Archive]

Orda Khan

09-18-2006, 18:28

Orda kahn you are so stu*id .It is very mongol .The horse is mongol.The mongols used a lot different types of horses.The had light armor.

I'll take this opportunity to remind you of forum rules shall I?

Please don't try to tell me this unit is anywhere close to an accurate depiction of a 'Mongol Heavy archer'. You should have read its description before mentioning the light armour which this unit has discarded in favour of lamellar, to enable them to withstand projectile fire etc. And btw that does not resemble Mongol lamellar armour either. Should I go further and also criticise the back quiver? Nomad quivers were enclosed, tubular and certainly not worn on the back!
In future keep your personal remarks to yourself

.......Orda

Tamur

09-18-2006, 18:35

Just in case anyone's interested in doing some reading, here's a site from a fellow in Norway who has put together a lot of information in Old Mongolian research and information sharing...

http://www.coldsiberia.org/

And re: the hat, here are a couple of pictures of traditional horseman hats, which also appear in manuscript drawings of Mongol horsemen:

http://cicero.modwest.com/images/m2tw/horseman.jpg

http://cicero.modwest.com/images/m2tw/horseman2.jpg

The clothing on the CA model does not look authentic as far as anything I've seen.

...and Dracula, calling someone (especially Orda on this point) stupid is really quite foolish. Refrain in the future.

Doug-Thompson

09-18-2006, 18:35

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

While I don't take it so hard, I have to agree with Orda on this one. The first thing that caught my eye is that the horse the guy's riding is no Mongol pony. The thing looks like a plowhorse.

The rider is far too heavily armored for hit and run, including the shield.

The stirrups are far too low. Mongol horse archers used high stirrips, like you'd find in professional horseraceing.

The quiver, IIRC, was attached to the saddle. Finally, the bow itself is missing the "ridges" near the end that gave Mongol bows their "snap." Oh, and then there's the matter of how Mongol HA had two bows — a long one for dismounted use and a smaller, handier one for horseback.

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-18-2006, 18:36

Dutch_guy

09-18-2006, 18:43

My man you don't heave experience so don't say things that are not true just because you want to say them.You read on the internet things that are not true:"In future keep your personal remarks to yourself" (Wrote by you)

To orda kahn from me

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Hmm Orda is quite a respected member because of his extensive knowledge of the Step peoples, the Mongols and the such. So claiming he doesn't know a thing, based on absolutely nothing but an opinion, seems quite harsh and childish, don't you agree ?

:balloon2:

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-18-2006, 18:51

Doug-Thompson

09-18-2006, 18:55

Orda's posted more reliable, verified info on Asian horse archers than anybody.

Tamur

09-18-2006, 18:55

Soooo i know better than you all.

The hubris in this statement is simply stunning.

lancelot

09-18-2006, 18:59

I am from switzerland.And i just finished the college and i am a history teacher.Soooo i know better than you all.I am interested in this game because i work for the history channel too.And they want to use this as a simulator for their programs and i need to see if the games alright to be used.

So you teach history...at what level? I study at Kings College, London, one of the most respected universities in the world and I know for a fact that many of my professors have turned down work with the history channel because they were more concerned with producing an interesting program than historical accuracy...so bragging about that is no big deal at all.

And even if you are right, you dont need to be a jerk about it.

Doug-Thompson

09-18-2006, 19:00

And i just finished the college and i am a history teacher.

So what are you going to do when a student tells you that you don't know what you're talking about?

Soooo i know better than you all.

The rest of us know we have to back up what we say, professor.:book:

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-18-2006, 19:03

Maizel

09-18-2006, 19:12

Bwah.

I think it's a good looking unit.

If someone would get so anal over one unit, im pretty sure he'd risk a heart attack playing the actual game.

Incongruous

09-18-2006, 19:49

Are you perhaps just making up this tale of going to university?
It is rather clear, even to a person such as me that that unit on display is rather lacking in anything based on reality.
However, I don't think that it's that bad. Afterall in the vannila game the Mongols are non-playable and so far most (with the exception of a few) units do seem to have some basis in historical fact.

The Wizard

09-18-2006, 19:58

Hey lancelot switzerland is different than london.And i am not a respected professor because i just finished the school.I like to work with history channel and i hope to go to england and teach there as soon as possible.Bye bye i will go now.See you soon

:laugh4:

Really, my man -- if you're a professor, prove it. I haven't ever seen Orda bested in a debate on the Mongols. It's your turn now to have a go, sport!

Concerning this unit: a most definite failure to emulate the reasonably accurate depiction of Mongols in MTW (from what I could see through the pixelation et al). A pity :no:

Furious Mental

09-18-2006, 20:19

He said he isn't a professor

econ21

09-18-2006, 20:49

OK, let's get back on topic. Action has been taken on the other matter.

Bob the Insane

09-18-2006, 21:07

To be fair I am not sure what CA could do about the horse, While they have multiple horse skins I can't imagine that they have multiple horse skeletons and animations...

I would be interested in seeing what an armoured Mongol warrior should look like? They seem to have done a good job of other units, could this simply be a lack of knowledge on this subject or is there some debate about their dress and equipment in the medieval period?

Ibn Munqidh

09-18-2006, 21:20

Ill take Orda's word for it:2thumbsup:

Sun of Chersonesos

09-18-2006, 21:23

agreed

Orda Khan

09-18-2006, 22:37

econ21

09-18-2006, 22:49

I agree the representation does not strike as a very Mongol-like and aesthetically is rather insipid.

However, I am sure there will be at least one Mongol "heavy cavalry" type unit that is equipped more along the lines of Orda Khan's photos - i.e. heavier armour, lance + armoured horse. The Golden Horse Heavy Cavalry in MTW did resemble those photos.

Based on the Russian and Byzantine faction previews, the Mongols may well have more than three horse units (archer, "heavy" archer, "heavy cavalry" + ???). For example, working off the horde units in BI, we might see a low level "herdsmen" type unit and an intermediate "lancer" type one.

Kralizec

09-18-2006, 23:25

This unit is a dissapointment, even more so because some of the other unit previews were quite good.

But it can be worse. I'm pretty sure I saw a screenshot somewhere titled "Mongol heavy lancers fighting [insert other unit]" in where the "Mongols" wore plate armour :dizzy2:

Maizel

09-18-2006, 23:28

Maybe it was The Mongols: Heavy Lancers Mercenaries =O

Leet Eriksson

09-19-2006, 00:43

Thats just one unit guys, keep in mind there will be a random generator to elimnate clone units so i guess it would actually look better in game.

NagatsukaShumi

09-19-2006, 01:08

https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1527/mongolcavalrytn2.th.jpg (https://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolcavalrytn2.jpg)
https://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5976/mongolcavalry2sn5.th.jpg (https://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolcavalry2sn5.jpg)
Here is an example. Like Wizard says, original MTW did a better job and I am very disappointed with this poor depiction. I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).

sorry I am being off topic, just wondered if Orda had been to see them himself or not.:2thumbsup:

IrishArmenian

09-19-2006, 02:18

Yes, looks good, but it is not very historical. I think they shood scrap the heavy armour, shield, and back quiver.
I think it looks a lot like a Hunnic rider, though.

wraithdt

09-19-2006, 03:14

Looking at it again it certainly looks more Turkic then Mongolian to me. Whats up with that quiver?:shame: Looks like this unit is gonna need a heavy make-over in MTR. As un-mongolian as it looks it still only one unit from the roster.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

Furious Mental

09-19-2006, 04:25

There are screenshots of Mongol and Timurid heavy cavalry. They do not wear plate armour. They wear lamellar armour.

ajaxfetish

09-19-2006, 04:57

I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda
No worries. I'm sure most of us (myself certainly included) have a deep respect for your research and knowledge on the subject. It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Ajax

Chad

09-19-2006, 09:09

Baaaa who cares about the mongols
IT's about europe and the middle east

caravel

09-19-2006, 09:49

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

09-19-2006, 10:44

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

Of course Orda Khan says the truth, if he criticize the mongol cav model. The swiss teacher shouldn't affront other forum members And Orda Khan is a very honourable member.

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-19-2006, 12:45

There are some mistakes there but you can't see them from that small picture from Totalwar.com.Who said that the mongols were using plate armour??????:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

caravel

09-19-2006, 12:48

I'm wondering if the eastern factions are again going to get the messy half hearted generic treatment that they got in MTW, or the generic and bland rendition of the 'barbarian' factions in RTW.

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-19-2006, 12:49

You didn't see well look again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The mongol archer that CA made is not using plate armor.

caravel

09-19-2006, 13:31

?

:inquisitive:

Kralizec

09-19-2006, 14:30

He's talking about my post, I said:

I'm pretty sure I saw a screenshot somewhere titled "Mongol heavy lancers fighting [insert other unit]" in where the "Mongols" wore plate armour

That was about a different unit, though. I haven't been able to find the screenshot again so I might recall wrongly.

Anyway, lots of different ethnicities fought in the "mongol" army, maybe his looks are more in line with what a Black Sea nomad would have looked like (doubt it though but I'll let a more knowledgable person answer that) and as Leet Erikson said men in a unit look differt from eachother, so that the units are actually ethincly pluriform. But I'm guessing that Mongol units were sorted by ethnicity, so it feels like I'm grasping at straws here.

Did someone else notice that the quiver on his back is completely flat? CA did a quite sloppy job here.

Doug-Thompson

09-19-2006, 15:25

It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Well said. :2thumbsup:

NagatsukaShumi

09-19-2006, 16:40

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

They are from the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, I may have some...I'll have a look.

kataphraktoi

09-19-2006, 16:55

You didn't see well look again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The mongol archer that CA made is not using plate armor.

This joker's speech pattern and attitude is more like a 12 yr old newbie with a computer trying to act tough...if he's a Swiss teacher, something must be wrong with the education system as this guy is an insult to the Swiss education system. :laugh4:

How about providing some evidence...history teacher?

In a debate this guy would be imPALED by Orda....pun intended

Orda Khan

09-19-2006, 17:18

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).
Unfortunately, no. I must visit there some day though, if only to view that particular display. Higher on my list of priorities is the Hermitage, that is something I am working on, so maybe soon.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?
Royal Armouries in Leeds. I don't have a better shot but maybe NagatsukaShumi would post a nicer one? That is if he has one? Please NagatsukaShumi?

The photo is a Mongol heavy cavalryman and no doubt CA will produce an adequte representation just as they did for the Turks. The reason I posted that particular pic is the new units' name....'Mongol heavy archer'. Mongol heavy cav did carry bows. OK, to provide a selection of units CA has to come up with some names (remember steppe heavy cav?) to add variety.
I went over the top in mentioning the horse since it is obvious that horses are same skeleton, different colours and if it were just the horse model, I would not worry that much. Though I must admit, I see no obvious improvement in horses over BI. Check Blue Lotus screenshots if you want to see good looking horses (and some excellent Mongol units complete with Mongol hair style!!)

My main concern is that Mongols have been slapped together and have fallen well short of the attention payed to Euro factions. I can only assume that Mongol heavy cav will be reduced to lance and mace/sword?
The appearance of this unit is quite bland and not instantly recognisable as Mongol, even MTW presented Mongols wearing their familiar de'el which has changed little in centuries and attaching a leather neck guard/aventail to that helmet would improve it no end. Lamellar came in many and varied forms from a simple lacquered leather cuirass to the full metal example in the photo. Later early 14th Century Golden Horde finds show that brigandine style armour was in use,sewn into the clothing, extending to the limbs also and with mail aventail fixed to the usual eastern segmented helmet which probably possessed a horse hair or feather plume.
I only hope that the 'Mongol light archer', if that is what it will be named, looks more authentic. Hopefully it will include felt and leather armour and look the part
Edit:
I may have some...I'll have a look.
Just saw this. Would be great if you have, thank you NagatsukaShumi

.........Orda

Furious Mental

09-19-2006, 17:30

Look at screenshots of Mongol infantry. Some of them wear that helmet. Others wear helmets with neck guards, or fur hats. Probably easy to mod the headgear if one doesn't like it. If you want to know what Mongol light cavalry are likely to look like then I'd suggest looking at the Russian faction preview on IGN. Obviously I'm assuming that the steppe units will, indeed, be generic. Compare the Mongol and Timurid units- they appear to be basically the same. Except for the cannon elephants.

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-19-2006, 18:23

The helmet is mongol.I will post pictures sonn .I just need to find them.

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-19-2006, 18:30

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3882&PN=1
Here you will see that mongols had a lot different types of helmets.And the horse is not like mongol pony BUT after the expansion of their empire they didn't had where to get all the times mongol pony so they used a lot different types of horses.

Orda Khan

09-19-2006, 19:21

I prefer to study archaeological finds for historical evidence than T.V programmes which invariably contain poetic licence. Maybe the person who posted the pictures should visit Inner Mongolia and speak to some of the few 'Mongols' who live there to find out just how 'Mongol' it is. It isn't but it is very Chinese and if you look further you will find that Chingis Khan is being claimed as Chinese by means of extremely spurious argument.
The Mongols did indeed use a variation of mount, as I have argued myself. Not all were ponies by todays classification which is 14.2 HH, the Akhal-Teke is around 15.2 HH but none were as large as the Destrier which this rendition is. I can not think of a horse that size in any area that was subjugated at that time,
ie Batu's invasion

......Orda

Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

09-19-2006, 19:52

Orda Let's Make Peace.i Don't Want To Argue Anymore
I Like The Game How It Is.maybe I Will Play It And I Will Use It For Simulator Too .you Have More Experince In Gaming Than Me,so I Will Trust What You Say About The Game In Future.

Peace.

wraithdt

09-19-2006, 20:06

Orda is the leading scholar on Mongolian and Steppe history around here and is more of an experienced historian then he is a gamer (at least thats what I assume). Make peace with that.

(p.s I mean no offence about the gamer remark if you are indeed a gamer, Orda)

IrishArmenian

09-19-2006, 23:37

Wraithdt, I assume he is a gamer as this site is based on a series of games.

econ21

09-19-2006, 23:44

Let's get back to topic, please.

Cousin Zoidfarb

09-20-2006, 00:53

doesn't look mongol:no:

Ser Clegane

09-20-2006, 08:06

Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

This website (http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/leeds&page=3)has some pictures from the Royal Armouries, including one of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry (http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/34195512) (the helmet can not be seen very clearly, though)

Ringeck

09-20-2006, 08:08

caravel

09-20-2006, 09:24

I wouldn't worry about the mongols "getting slapped together". The irritation Orda feels at the unit is exactly the same irritation I felt when seeing the "Huscarl" or hearing about "Danish War Clerics", or looking at armoured swordsmen wearing enclosed sugarloaf helmets. CA's research level has been known for a long time. Why be surprised?

Exactly. Those of us wanting historical accuracy and realism will have to wait for the various realism mods. I've a feeling that this is going to be the norm from now on.

Underdog687

09-20-2006, 10:49

Unit it self looks nice but its not very mongol looking.

SpencerH

09-20-2006, 13:26

Cebei

09-20-2006, 15:10

I think I will have a heart attack when I see Turkish units.

Ringeck

09-20-2006, 15:35

I remember being very surprised (many years ago now) when I saw just how small the mongol ponies were. In fact, I've met one (uncommon) Mongolian physician here who'se feet would've dragged on the ground trying to ride the things. I think one has to admit that the sight of even a small man riding a pony is not awe inspiring.

Same reaction I had when I saw the reconstructed skeletal remains of a medieval western european horse. Not quite as small as a steppe pony, but hardly the size of modern breeds.

Orda Khan

09-20-2006, 16:40

My point about the unit is based on a number of things. As has already been said, MTW Golden Horde units were a better representation and therefore it did surprise me to find such a poor effort with so-called much improved graphics. Why could they not simply refer back to MTW and take it from there?
Then there is the 'generic' issue. Let's just look at the Gothic Knight and then look at this Mongol unit. It seems that only a few factions get much work and the rest will just have to do. It is not exactly hard to find some degree of accuracy with regards appearance. Realism mods do the job, I agree and it is already very evident that these teams will have plenty to do in order to get somewhere near. Accuracy is not dull and boring. I appreciate that separate horse models are not viable so the Mongol units will not appear perched up high (due to the Mongol saddle) and close to the horses neck but how improved is this horse model over RTW? Not at all IMO, yet the horses in Blue Lotus looked very impressive.

I assume he is a gamer as this site is based on a series of games
I would not call myself a gamer in the true sense, TW series is the only game I have ever played, the history is my real passion (though I have had some memorable moments online:knight:) Total War appealed because of the nature of the game. I would like to see more historical battles and hopefully the editor tool will be a bit more user friendly in MTW II, in which case I will attempt to recreate some more

........Orda

wraithdt

09-20-2006, 19:32

This website (http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/leeds&page=3)has some pictures from the Royal Armouries, including one of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry (http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/34195512) (the helmet can not be seen very clearly, though)

Sweet! Thanks for the link mate. The Royal Armouries in Leeds looks like a great place.:2thumbsup:

Ulstan

09-20-2006, 19:40

Neither the quiver, helmet, nor armor scream out 'mongol' to me.

It looks a little drab so maybe it is simply a lower level unit. Or else just the most drab combination possible from the random unit look generator.

Kraxis

09-20-2006, 20:11

Had expected more to be honest...

The look does indeed indicate that there will be an even heavier unit, and this guy was just what was put together between the light horse archers (the popular image) and the heavy cavalry.

I don't mind that that was done (though I haven't really heard of dedicated heavy horse archers in the Mongol armies). But at least he could have been made more Mongol. Perhaps a steppe cap and a somewhat different armour, and a proper quiver would have helped to make him more believeable...

Martok

09-21-2006, 00:48

Had expected more to be honest...

I don't mind that that was done (though I haven't really heard of dedicated heavy horse archers in the Mongol armies). But at least he could have been made more Mongol. Perhaps a steppe cap and a somewhat different armour, and a proper quiver would have helped to make him more believeable...
Second that. I too doubt how historically accurate this unit is (a "heavy" Mongol mounted archer?), but he should look more Mongol if nothing else. For once, I wouldn't mind a little bit of stereotyping....

Kraxis

09-21-2006, 14:06

Well, I don't mind the idea behind the unit. I have always been a sucker for heavy horse archers.
I liked the Heavy Steppe Cavalry for instance, and find this guy to be in the same category, but the HSC were significantly better looking, and more believeable.

Orda Khan

09-21-2006, 19:25

I agree with you Kraxis, whereas there is no evidence of specific Mongol heavy archer units, it adds to the unit roster, allowing more options when creating an army. That makes sense.
In some ways we could suggest that this is accurate in the sense that we could expect Mongol horse archers who were better equipped. No doubt there were those who possessed a degree of lamellar armour whose primary role were as archers. Since even the heavy cavalry carried bows, there were archers of every aspect from light to heavy.
I wish .Com still featured the unit previews we had with RTW, these new previews are very small and against a dark background. This heavy archer seems to be wearing a simple metal conical helmet and the lamellar cuirass is leaving his neck very exposed (no de'el underneath) I would expect an aventail of leather or felt, allowing a lamellar one for the heavy cavalry. My disappointment is not the validity of the unit but it's appearance. It just does not look Mongol, it just looks like a horse archer with some armour. There again, he could have been given leather lamellar which would have filled the gap from light to heavy a bit better perhaps.
Here are some helmet examples circa western campaign and Japanese Invasion.
https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4971/mongolhelmetaa9.th.jpg (https://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolhelmetaa9.jpg)
https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2121/mongolhelmetjies4.th.jpg (https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolhelmetjies4.jpg)
Around the rim of both helmets there are holes where the neck guard was attached. The first was probably leather or felt or both, the second was of cloth lined with leather and reinforced with iron rivets. The Chinese influence can be seen on the Yuan officers helmet, ornately decorated as were the uniforms, also made of cloth and lined with overlapping leather segments. Even if the appearance suggested otherwise, most had armour of some sort.
Another look at the heavy cavalryman at the Royal Armouries
https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2405/mongolarmourrahk3.th.jpg (https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mongolarmourrahk3.jpg)

...........Orda

King Azzole

09-21-2006, 21:30

Wow some of the earlier posts in this thread reminded me of my eight year old nephews rants.

I personally will not be buying this game until M2:TRealism is done. I bought RTW when it first came out, played a bit and was flabberghasted and saddened by the blatant dismissal of reality. I have learned my lesson on CA and realism long ago. Did anyone here truly expect anything more?

Quid

09-21-2006, 22:08

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

No worries, I am not upset. Being a 'Swiss History teacher' myself I am all with Orda as I have learned in the past that he is mostly right conerning such discussions...

A bit ashamed that I have to contend with such people...He seems to have seen sense, however, so he can agree to disagree, which is fine.

On topic: I know next to nothing about how these horse archers looked as this is not my area of expertise. However, as mentioned before, I am with Orda on this as he has done (and still is doing) plenty of research on the subject.

Quid

Tiberius maximus

09-22-2006, 15:10

not very impressive or intimidating i expected something a little heavier

kiebop

09-25-2006, 18:03

Whats the diffrent between huns and mongols :help:

Orda Khan

09-25-2006, 20:44

Whats the diffrent between huns and mongols :help:
800 hundred years and a few other ethnic, miltary and political differences. Too long an explanation for this thread

.......Orda

The Wizard

09-25-2006, 22:12

I am getting the impression that CA mistaked the Mongols for a random Indo-Iranian tribe.

Callahan9119

09-25-2006, 22:20

i think they look fine...is it the exact image of what you would think on hearing the words mongol warrior?

no

but hearing the word "samurai" makes people conjur up images of the few elite warriors who dressed in the best armor available

maybe a more ethnic dress would be best, but this isnt for me to argue. they have simple available helms o9f the time, simple armor of the time and are pretty good looking, besides everyones various visions of what they would want the mongol to look like is an issue that could never be satisfied.

if they were rendered to all look the same, similar to previous tw games i would agree that more should be done to add an ethnic flavor to the unit. with the units looking pretty much different per individual...i thing the random armor commonly available in the times is a better fit

makes it more accurate to the hodge podge gear the classic "everyman" warrior would have worn

this is just my opinion, i respect the opinion of those who would like more detail to the units, yet i think it is a big upgrade in graphics and detail and looks pretty good...if the gameplay gets the same treatment i'll be a very happy man

Denizar

09-26-2006, 08:29

At least they could make the guy have long hair. I mean how many mongolians used to cut their hair?

Orda Khan

09-26-2006, 09:16

At least they could make the guy have long hair. I mean how many mongolians used to cut their hair?
The Mongol way of wearing their hair......
The crown was shaved in a similar fashion to the steriotype monk. The temples were also shaved, leaving a strip of hair above the brow. On the back of the head, the hair was grown long in braids and looped up and tied behind the ears. The Mongol units in the Blue Lotus mod display this brilliantly.

maybe a more ethnic dress would be best, but this isnt for me to argue. they have simple available helms o9f the time, simple armor of the time and are pretty good looking, besides everyones various visions of what they would want the mongol to look like is an issue that could never be satisfied.
They should at least be wearing a de'el, which has remained practically unchanged for centuries. Lamellar armour can hardly be considered simple. Simple armour would more likely be leather or felt. Likewise, a simple helmet could be a conical helmet of leather construction but a leather or felt aventail would go a long way towards improving an otherwise undistinguishable unit.
As for the unit graphics, I see no marked improvement over RTW. Only the terrain features show any significant improvement IMO

......Orda

Callahan9119

09-26-2006, 12:57

i'm sure they didnt all have lamellar armor, many, but i would assume with the number of warriors fielded and the prevalence of chain mail they would have had many warriors in chain mail or leather...or no real armor at all

the graphics look much better than rtw, the units included...take into account the animations and not just the still shots

maybe they are being punished for rolling the caliph into a rug and having horses trample him to death

if i was a big fan of the mongols, i'd prolly be as annoyed as you though ~:grouphug:

rios

09-26-2006, 20:40

Laminated armor were as heavy as mongols went (like on those pictures). Medium cav, mostly protection against missiles.
However, Mongols did have mercenary units of Jurchen heavy cavalries, who used double and sometimes even tripple plated armors. Before mongols dissolved Jin, Jurchens used heavy cavalry files as large as 3000 horses against the han chinese and western Xia.

Eastern school of heavy cavalry went back as far as Hsiung-nu (and han dynasty, both sides fielded small numbers). Jurchen's 3000 men strong units were the biggest they ever gotten. These true heavy cavalries were used exclusively as shock troops in order to disturb the enemy frontlines, lighter units and infantries were then send in to cut enemy formations into smaller pieces.

Also, eastern and western mongol units were quite different as the foes they faced weren't alike in term of size and technology. Western troops also had to worry about long distance maneuvers more than the eastern counterparts hence generally lighter. Kublai Khan even used artilleries which were unheard of in Subutai and Batu's armies.

Orda Khan

09-26-2006, 21:51

Kublai Khan even used artilleries which were unheard of in Subutai and Batu's armies.
By Qubilai's time, the counter weight trebuchet and thunder crash bombs were used yes; and even from ships during the Japanese invasion. However, artillery in the form of catapults were well known to Batu, he used them throughout Russia and even to take the bridge at Sajo. Similarly, Hulegu was well equipped with ox bows and catapults. Only much later was there a significant change to Mongol militaria from Khanate to Khanate

.........Orda

rios

09-26-2006, 22:40

By Qubilai's time, the counter weight trebuchet and thunder crash bombs were used yes; and even from ships during the Japanese invasion. However, artillery in the form of catapults were well known to Batu, he used them throughout Russia and even to take the bridge at Sajo. Similarly, Hulegu was well equipped with ox bows and catapults. Only much later was there a significant change to Mongol militaria from Khanate to Khanate

.........Orda

by artillery i meant primitive field and seige cannons, not trebuchet or catapults. Ones like this are from 13th century, but they existed 200 years before that during the reign of Jin and Xia dynasty.
http://www.crra.org.cn/pict/20050221_1448kh9.jpgg
thunder crash bombs were just grenades. It's not the idea of explosives, which the chinese had mastered thousands years ago. Rather using confined space to harnest the energy of explosions, or use explosives as propellants.

Btw, mongol leather helmet with bronze side guards and mesh neck piece. Originally painted black.
http://doc.db66.com/photos/content/zspd/pzhishijsnw050330-7.jpg

rios

09-26-2006, 22:42

image did not submit...
http://www.crra.org.cn/pict/20050221_1448kh9.jpg

Ringeck

09-27-2006, 09:39

by artillery i meant primitive field and seige cannons, not trebuchet or catapults. Ones like this are from 13th century, but they existed 200 years before that during the reign of Jin and Xia dynasty.

That's the 1332 bombard. The oldest possible handgun might be from 1298, but since it's a loose find and dated only by a inscribed (not cast, as the 1332 bombard) inscription it is impossible to know if it is real - the inscription might be a secondary addition. The earlier bamboo-tube "cannon" were not cannon as such - they were more like a combined flamethrower-shotgun-firecracker.

I still marvel at the leather helmets - why would anyone make such overly decorated and obviously expensive things out of leather for combat use? Are people sure they are not (and this is reasoning I usually hate) ceremonial? I can see (relatively) cheap leather-lamellar body armour, but I would dearly like to protect my noggin' with something more substantial than leather...

Orda Khan

09-27-2006, 09:55

Ah I see, primitive cannon. Yes there are reports of cannon use, I agree. Thunder crash bombs however came in various sizes from small grenade like pots to very large vessels that were launched via trebuchets or even rolled down hillsides, that were correctly termed bombs. During the battle of Legnica there are even reports of explosive devices being dropped on enemy formations by a large manned kite.
The Mongol invasion of the west contained contingents from the personal armies of each house. When the campaign ended abruptly, most of these returned. After that, Batu had only his personal army, the few who chose to remain and mostly Qipchaq forces. Later Mongol finds ( c. 14th C ) in Golden Horde territory include chain and plate and brigandine type armour
The period this game covers is the Mongol incursions into Mediaeval Europe and this new unit is not a good representation of those forces

.......Orda

Ringeck

09-27-2006, 10:45

During the battle of Legnica there are even reports of explosive devices being dropped on enemy formations by a large manned kite.

That sounds interesting (if impractical). Where is it from?

Orda Khan

09-27-2006, 12:52

"The battle may have witnessed the first aerial bombardment in history, with incendiaries dropped by a man flying in a large kite."
Historical Dictionary of the Mongol World Empire - Paul D Buell

Impractical it certainly does sound, I agree. I have read this in other accounts of the battle but I remain sceptical since the chronicles of European countries are certainly very biased, including all manner of things, even witchcraft to explain their defeat. Most usual is the stout resistance shown by Hungary or Poland as the saviours of Europe and the reason for Mongol withdrawal. Most historians agree that both countries were conclusively defeated and left unable to field an army of any importance.

The leather construction of both helmets and armour was quite common among steppe nomads, metal being less available to them. The leather was usually lacquered with pitch and was thick, hard and effective. Friar Giovanni DiPlano Carpini gives a good description of Mongol armour..

"they take strips of cowhide or other animal hide of one hand's width and they glue three or four of these together and tie them to each other with laces or cords. In the top strip they put the cords at the edge, in the one below they put them in the centre and they do this until the end. Therefore, when the soldiers bend, the lower strips slide up over the upper ones and so they are doubled or even tripled over the body.....
The Tatar helmet has a crown made of iron or steel, but the part that extends around the neck and throat is of leather; and all these pieces of leather are made as described above.....
Some Tatars, as we said above, have iron armour and it is made this way: they make a number of thin plates as wide as a finger and as long as a palm and they put eight holes in each plate while underneath they lay tight and strong laces. They place the plates one over the other so they overlap and then they tie these plates onto the strips with slender laces which they put through the holes described above and in the upper part they sew them to one lace so that the plates hold together well and firmly and then they make something like a band of these plates and they tie them into sections described above."

In this new unit we can see the use of a lamellar cuirass yet the neck area is totally exposed

.........Orda

Ringeck

09-27-2006, 13:24

"The battle may have witnessed the first aerial bombardment in history, with incendiaries dropped by a man flying in a large kite."
Historical Dictionary of the Mongol World Empire - Paul D Buell

He doesn't list any source? That's problematic. What other accounts you've read describe this?

The leather construction of both helmets and armour was quite common among steppe nomads, metal being less available to them. The leather was usually lacquered with pitch and was thick, hard and effective. Friar Giovanni DiPlano Carpini gives a good description of Mongol armour..
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know of Carpini's descriptions and the general use of leather for the less affluent steppe nomads. It is just that the helmet above seems to be rather fancy for such equipment, but one never knows.

Orda Khan

09-27-2006, 13:49

It is just that the helmet above seems to be rather fancy for such equipment, but one never knows.
It does, I agree and we have no idea about its authenticity.
The other sources for the kite I largely ignored. It was probably among some chronicles and from memory I can not remember anything to substantiate it. I have Buell's book and knew it was covered there also. We know that a smoke screen was used at Legnica but European accounts of the battle suggest witchcraft and magic incense so much information can be taken with a pinch of salt

.....Orda

Ringeck

09-27-2006, 13:52

It does, I agree and we have no idea about its authenticity.
The other sources for the kite I largely ignored. It was probably among some chronicles and from memory I can not remember anything to substantiate it. I have Buell's book and knew it was covered there also. We know that a smoke screen was used at Legnica but European accounts of the battle suggest witchcraft and magic incense so much information can be taken with a pinch of salt

.....Orda

Do we have any non-european accounts og Legnica at all? The witchcraft and insence stuff is from Jan Dlugosz, who, besides writing several hundred years after the fact (he is part of the 15th century "Polish Renaissance") does a number of creative things with the battle - conjuring an entire van of Teutonic Knights, along with their Grand Master (who indeed died at Legnica - only several years later and while visiting relatives in the local nunnery), something we from the Teutonic Orders' own records and other accounts of the battle have absolutely no mention of, for example.

rios

09-27-2006, 23:56

That's the 1332 bombard. The oldest possible handgun might be from 1298, but since it's a loose find and dated only by a inscribed (not cast, as the 1332 bombard) inscription it is impossible to know if it is real - the inscription might be a secondary addition. The earlier bamboo-tube "cannon" were not cannon as such - they were more like a combined flamethrower-shotgun-firecracker.

I still marvel at the leather helmets - why would anyone make such overly decorated and obviously expensive things out of leather for combat use? Are people sure they are not (and this is reasoning I usually hate) ceremonial? I can see (relatively) cheap leather-lamellar body armour, but I would dearly like to protect my noggin' with something more substantial than leather...

If only considering metal encasted cases, earliest example is this from Xia capital. 1 meter long 120mm muzzle. Dated to western Xia dynasty before Mongols conquered it, between the period of 1225-1226. About the end of Genghis Khan period. http://www.lzbs.com.cn/images/2004-11/07/Sun160B.JPG

Oldest possible handgun is the inscripted made during Kublai Khan's time, dated 1261.
http://www.nx.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2004-06/09/xinsrc_12060109090253191903.jpg

The issue is, the Jurchen Jin empire was militarily stronger and technologically superior to both southern Song dynasty and western Xia. So since examples exist from the Xia capital, there's little reason to doubt the Xia and Song claims of Jin firearms usage,not the mention the later mongols.

CrackerJap

09-28-2006, 00:06

I don't really have an issue with the horse. As stater previously Mongol warriors had more than one horse and since I'm assuming the Mongols being fought in M2 will be mostly in Eastern Europe/the Middle East it seems logical that they would be using a horse like that as opposed to a steppe pony. I dont really know a whole lot about Mongol equipment and gear but I have to say that the model is nowhere near to how I would imagine a Mongol would be equipped.

Ringeck

09-28-2006, 07:48

Oldest possible handgun is the inscripted made during Kublai Khan's time, dated 1261.

Hmm. That's the one Needham stated having been dated to 1289 by inscription. That's very odd. Do you have any articles on it (not in chinese)?

[[Edit: Make him stop touching the bronze with his bare hands without gloves! Aaargh! Corrosion heaven!]]

Orda Khan

09-28-2006, 10:58

Do we have any non-european accounts og Legnica at all? The witchcraft and insence stuff is from Jan Dlugosz, who, besides writing several hundred years after the fact (he is part of the 15th century "Polish Renaissance") does a number of creative things with the battle - conjuring an entire van of Teutonic Knights, along with their Grand Master (who indeed died at Legnica - only several years later and while visiting relatives in the local nunnery), something we from the Teutonic Orders' own records and other accounts of the battle have absolutely no mention of, for example.
I'd be surprised if there were no non-european accounts, no doubt there are Chinese accounts though I am unaware of any western translation. Many accounts name Qaidu as one Mongol commander, ignoring Carpini's report that Orda commanded the Mongol right wing and since Qaidu was born in 1236 these, or at least Qaidu as commanding officer, should not be taken as read.
Poppo von Osterna died in the battle; escaped from the battle; was not at the battle!! He was buried there so he fitted the bill I suppose. Army sizes are another anomoly, ranging from 8,000 to 25-30,000. I guess the actual facts will never truly be known but obvious fabrication such as gas attacks etc are easily ruled out.

Some nice examples rios, however they are from a different timescale. Jin use of such weaponry is not really in dispute. Subedei fought the Jin long enough I am sure, to be well aware of them and since there is no evidence of their use in the campaigns to the west, perhaps we should only expect to see Mongol units using them later in the game, if they are still around

.......Orda

Ringeck

09-28-2006, 12:11

Poppo von Osterna was master of Prussia in 1241, not Grand Master. Since he is documented as an active participant in diplomacy in the 1250s, we can safely assume he didn't die in 1241 ~:) - it is probably Jan Dlugosz who is responsible for that confusion. Gerhard von Mahlberg was (either elected or soon-to-be) Grand Master at the time of Legnica, replacing Konrad von Thüringen, who had died in Rome in 1240. He died in 1245. We have superlative records on the Teutonic order in the 13th century, due to several chronicles and the orders' own correspondance and records.

I'd be surprised if there were no non-european accounts,

It wouldn't be that weird. Asides from the Austrian Rhime-Chronicle, there are no other primary accounts of, for example, Ladislaus IV and/or the Szekely's defeat of Nogai Khan's force in the last major raid-invasion of 1285, after all, and the chronicle is pretty short on information itself - we don't even have a battle site to name it after (although some historians place it along the river Tisza) - one of the wonders of the Turks' torching of the hungarian royal archives in 1541 :oops:

Myrddraal

09-29-2006, 03:20

Orda Khan

09-29-2006, 09:03

About the horses and if they are improved...

Compare:
http://www.jucaushii.ro/images/screenshots/pc/Rome_Total_War_Barbarian_Invasion/pre/prima.jpg

To:
http://uk.media.pc.ign.com/media/800/800327/img_3911423.html
If I had to choose from one of those pictures it would probably be the first, above all the terrain is more believable. I admit I have not looked at every new screen shot but in those I have seen the horses are wading through some sort of tropical grass that must be four feet high. The white horse in the second picture is an example of what I have been saying. I do not think it is improved at all, any horse from Blue Lotus would be much better than that

.........Orda

ciprianrusu

09-29-2006, 13:53

That doesn't look like mongol to me either. I think that the helmet is the first thing that they should change.

DukeofSerbia

09-29-2006, 19:47

Mongol heavy archer look so much unmongolish.:dizzy2:

Myrddraal

09-30-2006, 02:25

I've walked in grass taller than me... Grass is short these days because if it isn't cut, it's either grazed or in a wood/shade.

As for the horses, they may not be as good as some, but they are certainly better than the RTW horses. Besides, (and this is in no way a critisism of hoggy's awesome work) hoggy's models do tend to the cartoony style. His horses don't escape that.

Aside from that, I've yet to see this in any M2TW screenshot:
http://www.clubic.com/afficher-en-plein-ecran-139283.html

Have you ever seen such ridiculously steep earth slopes...

That's not to say it isn't there in M2TW, but I have hopes :grin:

Another example, from an official screenshot (though it's less noticable for being further away. You could imagine that those are cliff faces, or at least rocky)
http://www.gameplasma.com/screenshots/577/21.jpg

Peasant Phill

09-30-2006, 10:40

Have you ever seen such ridiculously steep earth slopes...

Sure I have and you probably to (think of the hill they do the cheese roll). But that of course doesn't mean that medieval armies would use them as battle ground, as even on the defence it would be incredibly hard to keep your balance.

Orda Khan

09-30-2006, 11:00

Hoggy does tend towards 'cartoonish' I agree, it's the general outline of the horse, the shape and features, just my preference I guess. There are many types of grass but endemic species in Europe tends to be shorter than I am seeing. Has there been a screenshot with grass shorter than knee height? I hope so but I've not seen one. Terrain looks improved, though I have still noticed the tendency for hills to acquire geometrical outline when in the distance. There again I have said before that terrain textures are the real improvement rather than the units, I would just like to see some with shorter grass

.....Orda

Comrade Alexeo

10-01-2006, 04:19

Mind you, I'm not as good with medieval history (particularly Mongolian), but to me at least this unit is not that upsetting. While it looks more Turkish than Mongolian, if I recall correctly there were probably large numbers of Turks riding with the Mongols, just as they and groups like the Ostrogoths rode with Attila the Hun. My only problem is the horse; it is much too big to be a steppe pony, resembling a Central European charger instead.

Still... I mean, its not exactly, say, Arcani, right?
:wall:

I'd say its not something to really get riled up about; most of the other units of M2TW look good, and in any case I don't care if the Mongol Heavy Archer looks a bit off if it provides me excellent gameplay.

Chester

10-01-2006, 06:08

If the Unit is as bad as you say, then this Faction will probably be non-playable. Just an AI faction with generic, poor quality units.

I'm worried that modding these units will be a very difficult task. Mutliple models per unit and skins that change over the course of battle (blood and dirt).

Polemists

10-02-2006, 01:16

Kraxis

10-02-2006, 03:44

You guys do crack me up tho cause your talking about all this historical accuracy of MTW 1, when I'd like to remind you all what they did to vikings, (horns on helm? so cliche)
And where did the horns appear?
On the box and on the card for the Jomsvikings. The rest of the vikings were very well made, not cliche at all! And most important, they were believeable.
Did you even buy Viking Invasion? If you did then I'm surprised at your conclusions to say the least. ~:rolleyes:

Watchman

10-02-2006, 11:53

Well, it's a horse-archer. And it wears armour. The horse's also way too big to be a steppe pony, and I'm under the impression the bigger breeds went to elite warriors.

But I know enough about steppe warfare and equipement to know that sure as **** isn't what would be considered a "heavy" trooper. That guy's pretty much just some run-of-the-mill horse-archer prosperous enough to own proper body armour (or been issued, or looted from somewhere). The steppe heavies were damn cataphracts in full armour atop barded horses (which naturally tended to also be rather bigger breeds than the standard pony just to take all the damn weight).

And everything I've ever read says the normal place for the quiver was the belt; even infantry archers didn't carry them across their backs for battle.

Orda Khan

10-02-2006, 16:43

I am curious though since CA has stated as others mentioned they want gameplay over historical accuracy how would you guys, assuming you had any say beef up the original light horse archer design.

Basically if CA, said,

"Hey we need a heavier armored horse archer for mongols to balance for gameplay purposes"

Maybe they had a general idea and built off it. You guys do crack me up tho cause your talking about all this historical accuracy of MTW 1, when I'd like to remind you all what they did to vikings, (horns on helm? so cliche)

Plus as other person said there will be a random generator, so they can't all look EXACTLY like that so chill till you see them in combat. Then run for your lives :book:
The only MTW units mentioned in this thread were the 'Golden Horde' units and a direct comparison between those and this new unit and that the GH units were more realistic. I would also say that the original Mongol units of STW/MI were a better representation.
I find it hard to buy this 'gameplay over accuracy' statement, if this is the case, why are we 'treated' to the new unit role out; they obviously feel proud of them. The 'superb graphics' are a very big deal and I would argue a major selling point of the game. Historical accuracy has its place also otherwise CA could simply make one unit model of a Knight, apply it to all factions and tell you to use your imagination.

Setting aside accuracy and to answer your question.....

Assuming there are Mongol horse archers and heavy cav ( and let's forget also that MTW Mongol heavy cav did not possess a bow...for gameplay reasons ) there are many ways to 'beef up' the HA we can expect from CA. Both rider and horse could be given leather lamellar armour. Rider with metal and horse with leather. Horse with metal and rider with leather. There are so many ways really but whichever option, I would not provide a suggestion that the rider should have his neck area totally exposed. Neither would I suggest that anyone should ride into battle with a quiver on his back, what a recipe for disaster. Far from the laughable rapid fire of that guy in Lord of the Rings the use of a back quiver is far too clumsy. I'll explain...
Most arrows are around 28 inches in length ( the average man's draw length and one reason most bows are weighed at 28 inches ) and trying to pull one out of a back quiver results in a bit of a stretch in order for the head to clear the neck of the quiver. I hadn't realised just how awkward this actually was until my friend started using one. With a quiver at the hip all you need do is reach down and extract. Even the Longbow units we have seen have these back quivers and they never even used quivers. They carried arrows in wicker and linen bags and stuck enough in the ground for use. Even MTW Golden Horde units had back quivers though they did at least have bow quivers at the hip.

If this was an historical accuracy rant for the sake of accuracy, I would have been calling for lasso, spare bow, spear, sword or axe to be present. I realise that would clutter the unit and appreciate these reasons to leave them out. However I don't understand why CA made such an un-Mongol unit considering their past portrayals

........Orda

rios

10-04-2006, 01:45

In the cold weapon days, the breed of horse available to a faction would have profoundly influenced its military doctrines. The small size and slow sprint of mongolian horses meant they wouldn't be the ideal mount of heavy cavalries, but also allowed them to do long distance maneuvers with good sustained speeds, which were the characters mongols adapted and their entire military strategy based on.
Even when they had access to other horses in large numbers, furthest they had gone was to try breed them with the mongolian natives and hope to sustain the characters of those step ponies. They needed the small size, light body weight and small consumptions to sustain their 100miles/day maneuvers, and they didn't need heavy cavalries to charge their enemies since to absorb that into their tactics would of meant a new set of problems. In fact, many european and asian factions successfully used circular formations against mongol armies since point contacts were sufficient to the way mongols charged and sustained far less casualties from shoot and scoots.
Mongols employed mercenary units and some of those inarguably were heavy cavalries, but that's far from sustaining those units or adapting their breeds of horses.