company of heroes

[Nobunaga]

any one played it yet? and what do u think

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The demo was enjoyable; as long as there are a few good realism mods this will be an excellant choice. It's pretty tactical - like Close Combat, although it sometimes requires too much micromanagement. I think a good deal of it could be taken care of with some modding.

[Bob the Insane]

Got the full game and it is really fun...

It is basically the same game style as Dawn of War but with far less in the was of upgrade options.

The maps are amazing though, I mean CoD 1 quailty graphics in a RTS where you spend much of your time zoomed out anyway...

Everything is destructable and craters from artillery are persistant... It looks and sounds frekin amazing...

It is however definately an RTS, not a battle simulator, and getting units to fight is very RTS in style... It is however a very well balanced RTS with lots of lovely touches. Flanking enemy troops is very effective and tanks are more vunerable to the rear (and are completely immune to small arms fire).

Like in Dawn of War there is a fair emphasis on the MP game and the SP campaign is really a giant tutorial. But it is pretty good in and of itself if a little easy. I am play the game on normal and doing just fine on the SP missions, but a tried a skirmish match (also on normal) and the AI handed my arse to me!

The game style of capturing territory, reinforcing it and protecting it and moving forward is very well implimented.

Alll in all, definately and RTS but one of the best one I have ever played...

[Husar]

I am playing the demo in skirmish quite often lately and I have to say it's quite a good game for an RTS.
I like the way bullets and even grenades can be deflected by tank armour, units can and will often miss their targets instead of hitting all the time and there are other nice things like infantry firing on the move, taking cover etc.
The only thing that bugs me a bit is the population limit which is quite low so I sometimes end up running after some enemy squads who take my territory because I have not enough infantry to defend more than two or three points.

Those with the full version could maybe tell whether the pop limit is adjustable or higher in some maps there.

[lars573]

A proud owner of the full game. :2thumbsup: You get more pop-cap the more points you hold, so larger maps=more pop-cap. The pop-cap is an issue let me tell you. Like Axis knights cross holders (these aren't Relics attempt to put in SS infantry without calling them SS infantry, that honour goes to Stormtroopers) are the singlemmost useless unit in the game. A team of three guys that takes 6 pop-cap. Or how Axis officers and both sides snipers use 4 pop-cap. Or how the feild guns for both sides defensive tech trees are 11. :dizzy2: But if you marginally enjoy the demo, get the full game. Then wait for the mod tools to be released then someone will make a re-ballance mod to get more stuff on screen.

[Bob the Insane]

Hey lars573, have yu tried a skirmish game rather than the SP mission?

[lars573]

I've played many skirmish games. At least one with both sides tech trees.

[Bob the Insane]

I've played many skirmish games. At least one with both sides tech trees.


Any hints? I management to do fine until the opponent starts getting vehicles and then it tends to be a steady slide down hill...

Because the AI in the SP game is so unagressive in most of the missions I guess I am not sure how maximize my development into armoured vehicles.

Do you agree that the AAI seems far more competent in Skirmish mode than it does in the SP missions?

[Husar]

In the demo it's usually over once I send two heavy tanks straight into the AI's base...at least on easy and normal AI settings.

[lars573]

Any hints? I management to do fine until the opponent starts getting vehicles and then it tends to be a steady slide down hill...

Because the AI in the SP game is so unagressive in most of the missions I guess I am not sure how maximize my development into armoured vehicles.

Do you agree that the AAI seems far more competent in Skirmish mode than it does in the SP missions?
It does seem that way. The best bet is to play on skirmish maps that are bisected by a river. That way once you blow up the river crossings you can fortify the undestroyable one. And then fight your way across. Lyon is one such map. It's two player. It has 4 bridges crossings. 3 or which can be blown. One is a rail bridge in the lower left corner that only infantry can cross, blow it. There are 2 other road bridges that are on either side of the undestroyable one in the center, blow those too. Then turn the undestroyable crossing into a choke point of AT guns, snipers, mortar and MG teams. Never underestimate the value of AT guns. Also like in WW2 to hold back the enemy you need to create choke points to limit there movement. The cheap and easy way to do that is with barbwire+tanktraps (my prefered way is to put both right next to each ex. a layer of tanktraps followed as close as I can get to it with a line of wire). The more resource intensive way to do it is with MG nests and mines.

[Crandaeolon]

CoH is a very good game, definitely the best RTS to come out in recent memory. Quite refreshing to find a game that makes it a challenge to think of any weak points. :2thumbsup:

The pop cap could be a tad larger, it's not quite company-sized at around 60-100 men. (Here in Finland a company is about 120-250 men, can't remember Yankee sizes.) Sometimes the maps feel a bit too large for the amount of men involved, but that's usually only in the beginning stages of a match.

I don't have enough experience yet to comment on balancing, but personally I didn't find the pop cap requirements of officers or snipers too unreasonable. Officers get cheap and accurate artillery strikes, and snipers can severely hamper an opponent's land grab in the beginning stages of a game. But gotta agree, Knight's cross holders do suck. They don't cost anything but manpower to build, but that feels kind of redundant since you'll need a lot of fuel to tech up that far. And they can't do jack squat about vehicles.

The defensive cannons do have their uses. The Allied Howitzer can barrage targets half a map away and doesn't require line of sight; building a couple near the center of a map means getting "free" artillery strikes anywhere on the map, including the enemy base. It's kinda annoying to rebuild base structures over and over. ~;p Another advantage is that on-map artillery don't have the advance warning given by signal smokes. Gotta love nebelwerfers and calliopes.

The German 88 is a bit less useful since it can't be used to barrage, but it does counter some Airborne company operations. Can't remember if it can counter paradrops (would be very nice), but it can prevent Thunderbolt runs at least.


Any hints?

Expand fast. It's usually a good idea to build several engineer units right off the bat and go capture control points, fuel being priority on most maps. Build a few jeeps / motorcycles / other fast vehicles to try and prevent your opponents from doing the same. Recon your enemy and build appropriate counters to his strategy. (Lots of vehicles -> build tank destroyers, upgrade infantry with AT capabilities, build a few AT guns for defense etc.) Pretty standard RTS stuff, actually.

Micromanagement is key. Use those special abilities, withdraw damaged units for reinforcement and repair, flank vehicles. Try to use AT guns offensively; they're rather cheap and take much less pop points than vehicles.

For Axis, remember the Veterancy upgrades at Kampfkraft center. For some reason I tend to forget those quite often, and then wonder why my gunners can't hit anything. :laugh4:

[LeftEyeNine]

CoH is a hurricane winding from the ashes of WW2.

A definite masterpiece which simply looks like Call of Duty RTS-ized. The game has dominated me of total control. I simply like watching the foggy and blurry ruined French towns, let alone how the collapse of a building, the scatterred boxes, wheelbarrows blown up and around with dead soldiers after a hand grenade's explosion drops your jaw.

Voices are voices, whispers are whispers (yes soldiers whisper when it is a night mission), explosions growl like thunder, you can even differentiate heavy machine guns and anti-air flaks from their sounds.

Atmosphere draws you into the WW2 scene. You nearly feel the need to keep your head down as the squad leader waves his hands the other privates to move silently forward.

You really need to build strategies to win over your opponent. You only have the option to call to retreat your "pinned" men when carelessly you throw your squad in front, who are, then, closed down from their front and rear with two rushing enemy squads.

This game has it all and I've just decided to build the Turkish scene for it. One of the best games EVAR.

[lars573]

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/lars573/warhammer/TigerAce.jpg
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/lars573/warhammer/Panther.jpg
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/lars573/warhammer/Blowit.jpg

My screens so far.

[Crandaeolon]

Nice screens, what are your settings at and on how beefy a machine? My athlon 3000 / 9800 Pro 128 Mb / 1 gig PC 3200 ram are begging for mercy... ~;p

[lars573]

Medium high, I think. I let auto detect do it's work.

My system is Athlon 64 3200+, 1 Gig (512x2) kingston ram, Sapphire Radeon X1900XT 512 VRAM (PCIe). <-This is what makes the graphics so pretty.

[Crandaeolon]

Yep the half gig memory on display card makes all the difference on textures. Damn it, i'm seriously considering upgrading my system for this game alone. ~;p

Found a use for Knight's cross holders btw, they're pretty useful for keeping the backyard clean against those pesky paratroopers. Human opponents tend to drop Airborne infantry and AT guns in the most inconvenient places... :laugh4: Dunno if holders are actually the best for this kind of duty, but hey, it's one way to use them at least.

[Dorkus]

Any hints? I management to do fine until the opponent starts getting vehicles and then it tends to be a steady slide down hill...

Because the AI in the SP game is so unagressive in most of the missions I guess I am not sure how maximize my development into armoured vehicles.

Do you agree that the AAI seems far more competent in Skirmish mode than it does in the SP missions?

As with most RTS's, the AI is dismally weak once you recognize its weaknesses. The key is fuel. Aggressively take fuel points (especially those close to the AI's base), then cover those points with snipers in camouflage. The AI will repeatedly send engineers out, and bike/jeep squads once in a while. But will never cover the engineer's advance with its own snipers, or thorougly search the area with light vehicles.

If you choke your opponent's fuel supply, the game is a piece of cake. Just rush with tanks in the late game, and use snipers to take out any anti-tank guns.

snipers+tanks = game over.

[lars573]

I prefer to toy with the AI. Get to the top of the tech tree and then mass, death, win.

[Bob the Insane]

Thank for the hints, I beat it on the Lyon map...

Once I have cut off the bridges and fortfied the center one the AI became very passive and if was not until I had taken the 'island' off the right and captured a couple of areas on his side of the river theat the AI became aggressive again (loads of tanks) but Rangers really do "lead the way"... :2thumbsup:

Oh and additionally, a sniper and an off map arty barriage can really devestate the enemy main camp and keep it rebuilding while you build up your forces for the rush...

So what I have seen is the the enemy AI (on Normal at least) it pretty agressive and efficient unless you can stump it in someway, at which it is simply goes on hold for a while...

[doc_bean]

Holy #@^& !

I just installed the demo to see if it was worth the praise it was getting here. In the tutorial I ordered an infantry unit to attack, half the unit attack from behind a tree, the other half snuck past a wall and came up behind the enemy unit, shot them all in about a second !!!

During the first campaign mission I had a single engineer running from one of the big guns to the next, only to set the explosives the second before he died, making a successful landing possible for the rest of the company, what a hero !

Playing some more with the game I have to say it seems awesome. I wish it was a little less RTS-like, I could do without the barracks, (on site) upgrades and resource points, and a little less of a click fest, and I feel it's a little too much like Warhammer40K in a WWII coat, BUT it has flanking, cover, suppressive fire, destructible terrain, halfway decent AI (or so it seems), BIG explosions and actual drama when you see some of your men get killed.

I'll play some skirmish games when I get the opportunity, but this game is already on my to buy list. Unless CA provides a very convincing M2TW demo, it's just going to have to wait...

EDIT: Amazon UK is selling it for £25 including the Warhammer 40k GOTY edition ~:eek:
I sure we hope we get similar conditions on the mainland...

[Crandaeolon]

snipers+tanks = game over.

The sniper / MG / tank rush strategy works well against the AI, and maybe also a bit too well against human opponents. It can be countered by keeping the pressure up and mounting an early attack against the opponent's main base with things like flame+demo engineers or panzershreck grenadiers in halftracks zipping past the sniper / MG nests. This either wins you the game by annihilation, or forces the opponent to retreat back to his base for defense, yielding you map control. If the game doesn't end, keep a couple of units near his HQ to prevent him from recovering - he may have a forward barracks somewhere.

Early warning signs of a sniper / MG "turtler" are somewhat passive expansion and harassment activities, a low number of troops on the field (mostly snipers / MGs), and ignoring victory point locations. Teching-up for huge late game tank battles is also more likely to happen in team games than in one-on-ones. Scout 'em out to be sure, and rush if the odds look good.

Unfortunately, doing an early attack tends to result in people calling you a rusher, even though it's a logical counter to a build-up strategy. ~:dizzy: What can i say... lern2play? :laugh4:

About fuel denial... better not get overconfident, since Allied Armor Company and Blitzkrieg Doctrine commanders get tanks with manpower only. (And manpower comes in at a relatively constant rate regardless of expansion.)

[econ21]

This is sounding tempting. But does it still feel basically like a Command and Conquer type game? I played Dawn of War and really admired the craft and love that had gone into the game. Yet, I still felt I was playing Command and Conquer. Do people feel like that with this game? Or does it manage to make you feel you are playing a wargame? Or at least using something approximating to realistic tactics?

Also, what are the single player game modes like? Dawn of War had a rather short and linear string of missions (the second expansion sounds more promising with something resembling a Total War style open campaign). I like a long campaign with the hook of unit experience and resources carrying over from mission to mission (Panzer General exemplified this); ideally I like some strategic freedom (Total War style). RTSs typically don't provide much of either.

[Crandaeolon]

But does it still feel basically like a Command and Conquer type game? I played Dawn of War and really admired the craft and love that had gone into the game. Yet, I still felt I was playing Command and Conquer.

It feels between a conventional RTS and a wargame. It has typical RTS conventions like constructing units and buildings in minutes from accumulated resources. Weapon ranges are compressed. Units have (sometimes cheesy) "special abilities."

Wargamey elements include cover, suppression, a somewhat realistic armour thickness and hit angle modeling for vehicles. Small arms can't do any damage at all to buildings or armoured vehicles, unlike most other RTS games. Even though weapon ranges are relatively short, the game has effective artillery and fire support units that interact with the battle in a believable manner.



Also, what are the single player game modes like?

Coh has a short and linear, but well-crafted campaign. There's also a Skirmish mode against AI opponents, but that's about it for the SP. The SP features in CoH are comparable to the original Dawn of War.

[econ21]

Thanks for the information - I just read the gamespot review and it comes out well (9.0 IIRC). I've ordered it - maybe it will serve the same function as DoW did - bide me over before CAs big release. I daresay it will get expansions that make it more interesting (for some reason, I always like German WW2 campaigns better than allied ones - I probably don't want to stray into the psychology of that).

The fact that Amazon's CoH comes bundled with DoW was the clincher for me - a second copy will enable my son and I to try DoW multiplayer. I found the skirmish mode in the DoW demo more tactically interesting than the campaign scenarios. I'm also rather interested in the sound of the second DoW expansion campaign. But I never got much into the original DoW game as RTW came out only a week after DoWs release and shortly thereafter blew up my computer[1].

[1]At the time it was rather like having an old man having a heart attack on his marriage night. :skull:

[lars573]

This is sounding tempting. But does it still feel basically like a Command and Conquer type game? I played Dawn of War and really admired the craft and love that had gone into the game. Yet, I still felt I was playing Command and Conquer. Do people feel like that with this game? Or does it manage to make you feel you are playing a wargame? Or at least using something approximating to realistic tactics?
If you absolutely can't stand CnC style RTS games don't play it. If you can aslong as the gameplay is good then paly it. I'd describe CoH as an evolutionary step from DoW. It has many of the elements Relic put into DoW taken to the next logical level. Light cover is provided by thing that you would expect it to be. Like shell craters, wooden fence, shurbery/hedges. Heavy covers is provided by what you'd expect it too be. Stone walls, sand bag lines, deep shell craters. The maps are also much more dynamic. If you come across and enemy hard point in an other wise open flat feild you can give your infantry cover by calling in some artillery to that area to create craters for your grunts to hide in. Also the unit recruitment system work on a theoritical supply chain. Example US Paratroopers are called in from a drop plane. Rangers come in from the reserves, in CoH parlance that means off map. Tigers (and Tiger aces) are the same, called in from the reserves. Sherman calliopes as well.


Also, what are the single player game modes like? Dawn of War had a rather short and linear string of missions (the second expansion sounds more promising with something resembling a Total War style open campaign). I like a long campaign with the hook of unit experience and resources carrying over from mission to mission (Panzer General exemplified this); ideally I like some strategic freedom (Total War style). RTSs typically don't provide much of either.
Well the senarios are only linked by the allied units that are fighting. You can also re-deploy experienced units from previous missions. I'm still using the same sniper I got in the first D-day mission.

Also I wouldn't let the kid try this one. Where as DoW was rated mature for squirting blood sometimes. CoH is rated mature for the swearing, not the blood.
When ordering a US infatry squad to move. "Jesus Conrad tie your ******* laces"
Engineers finishing a sand bag wall. "Jobs done. If I see one more ******* bag of dirt."
German armour under attack. "Panzer in zee ****!"
Re enforcing Grenediers. "Hey new guy, don't ****-up!"

[Divine Wind]

The fact that Amazon's CoH comes bundled with DoW was the clincher for me - a second copy will enable my son and I to try DoW multiplayer. I found the skirmish mode in the DoW demo more tactically interesting than the campaign scenarios. I'm also rather interested in the sound of the second DoW expansion campaign. But I never got much into the original DoW game as RTW came out only a week after DoWs release and shortly thereafter blew up my computer[1].

Is this a Amazon.co.uk special offer? Would you be so kind as to provide a link? This has me tempted too!

[econ21]

Is this a Amazon.co.uk special offer? Would you be so kind as to provide a link? This has me tempted too!

Yes, it is an Amazon.co.uk special offer.

I don't really want to provide a direct link as I am afraid it may assume you are me, if you see what I mean (Amazon always asks me if I am me when I go on their website).

But just find "Company of Heroes" in amazon.co.uk and you will see it says "(Incl. Dawn of War Game of the Year Edition)" after the title.

[Divine Wind]

Thanks, i ordered it today, so hopefully it will arrive by the end of the week.

Something to keep me entertained until MTW2 hits the shelves. :)

[doc_bean]

Has anyone gotten the European edition yet ? I still can't seem to find it in stores :furious3: I want to know whether it also contains DoW:GoTY or if that's just an Amazon exclusive deal.

[econ21]

I don't know about the European edition, Doc Bean, but I would not rush to purchase unless you've tried the demo. I bought it blind and am not sure I am going to get beyond the first mission. It's the usual chaotic, frenetic RTS kind of playstyle. My game looks nothing like Lars's screenshots - I just see tiny little men that look no better than those in Command and Conquer circa 1995. I suppose you could zoom in and try to enjoy the graphics, but given the game's speed, I suspect your army would be dead by the time you had zoomed back out. And people have the cheek to call RTW an RTS clickfest. :furious3: Dawn of War had the same problem, although it grabbed me more as it had a more original setting and character. In fact, come to think of it, the presentation and general hook of the game seems substantially less than that of Command and Conquer circa 1995.

[Incongruous]

Oh dear, and to think I was going to but it today.
I feel you're pain.:shame:

[Crandaeolon]

I bought it blind and am not sure I am going to get beyond the first mission. It's the usual chaotic, frenetic RTS kind of playstyle.

Ouch, too bad you feel you got burned. But I don't know how we could have warned you better - calling CoH an evolutionary step from DoW, like Lars did, is a pretty accurate description IMO.

I don't mind the speed, it's in the slower half of the RTS spectrum IMO, I'd actually rate it slower than RTW MP games. Can't detect any other "broken" stuff either - it works like it should, a RTS with wargame flavor.

I'd suggest trying out some skirmish games if you can't stand the campaign. Take a 2vs2 map, one Hard opponent, and ally yourself with a Hard or Expert comp. Then just fiddle with things sandbox-style.

[econ21]

Don't worry - I'm not blaming anyone; just my own weakness. I think it is a temperamental thing (on the part of the player). I tried Call of Duty and had the same reaction - too frenetic and linear to enjoy. I like to sit back, evaluate the options. To me, a good game is rather like a good scary movie - the scariest part is the anticipation. I want to be sweating as the AI lumbers towards me, not frantically clicking to best it. Most RTS and FPS are so in your face, they remind me of the frenetic ends to bad Hollywood action films - apparently it is just not exciting unless there are 40 police cars crashing into each other, helicopters falling on tower blocks, heroes diving from great heights and some how surviving etc. Sometimes less is more.

Good idea about trying a skirmish game - they actually got my attention in DoW whereas the campaign was underwhelming.

[lars573]

Yeah Relic's real weakness these days is campagin design. From what I've heard the campagin from Homeworld was great. But the campagin from DOW was :thumbsdown:, the campagin in WA was :juggle:. on the ones hand you get to choose from 4 factions (divided in half by chaos and order) but the actual campagin was pretty short. And the last mission for order and chaos was the same just with you controlling a different army. Dark crusades TW esque planetary conquest looks ~:thumb: on paper. How it palys out will be the determining factor.

CoH campagin is similar to the DoW campagin. One sided, and far to linear. But it is WW2. If they had a German campagin the Jewish anti-defimation league would eat Relic for breakfast.

But what Relic is great at creating is RTS action. That's not RA2 or WC3 fast and clickyish, or too plodding.



I like to sit back, evaluate the options. To me, a good game is rather like a good scary movie - the scariest part is the anticipation. I want to be sweating as the AI lumbers towards me, not frantically clicking to best it.
I get that feeling playing Cossacks 2. I just unload a full volley from my fusilier battalion and sent the enemy running then another one marches up the road before I can exploit the route. ~:doh: Then the enemy marches towards me line and I don't know whether they are going to fire or sit back and wait for their comrades. Then I'm like. :help:

[econ21]

I get that feeling playing Cossacks 2.

Interesting - that's another game that you (and AdrianII) persuaded me to buy, Lars, but I have not even loaded it up yet. Maybe I should...

[lars573]

Well it is slow paced. I've never whipped out a stop watch and checked mind but I swear it takes at least 20 seconds for the guys in Cossack 2 to reload. But if you don't have the expansion version your might be in for some let down. Much like CA GSC didn't patch their game, they just put all the bug fixing in the expansion.

[lanky316]

I enjoyed DoW massively (even if the linear campaign was a let down) and keep intenting to get CoH and have a look at the evolved version. I've heard mainly positive things about it so far so definatly going to check it out.

Slightly unrelated from the original topic but I loved Cossacks 2. Especially liked the longer reload times. Meant you had to judge when you let loose the salvo better. Too early or too late wouldn't stop the charge. Unfortunatly don't get a lot of gaming time these days so not got the expansions for either Dow or Cossacks yet :(

[Bijo]

Tried out the demo. MAN, it's GREAT ~:eek:

Good gameplay, and it looks good too with decent frame rate, even on my low-end machine, hah hah.

This is a must-buy.