View Full Version : Hoplitai Spartiatai in EB
Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom
09-21-2006, 02:33
I know yall, the Eb team, are hesitant to add spartans to EB, because of the little know about them of the time. which is what ive gathered. However Im goin to add them in my self :2thumbsup: and was wandering if anybody could give me any accurate stats settings. Im definitley only giving them one hitpoint, but mainly good skill and armor. Were the Spartans still well trained at the time of EB. Would they be equal to Gaesetai in defense skill, and attack, or if not who should I compare them to.:juggle2:
Its not that EB doesn't want to add them they simply where not ready when 0.7.4 came out I think they are one of the new units in 0.8 but I don't know it for a fact I'm not especially interested in them I will read the desc when I conquer southern Greece which may take awhile coming from Baktra! :laugh4:
Or, you know, you could just do a custom battle.
Or, you know, you could just do a custom battle.I'm aware of that I was saying I would prefer to discover these things in game in this way.
Well, you are talking to a guy who has stopped dotting his "Is".
Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom
09-21-2006, 12:50
So there ar already Spartan hoplites available for custom battles? I never saw any, I saw the texture in the models_battle, but there is no text file? What would be good "EB level" statsto give my spartans.
vizigothe
09-21-2006, 14:17
I think they meant in v.08. That instead of conqueoring all the land from Bactria to Sparta you could play a custom battle.
spartans will be 0.8. But they won't exactly be gaesatae tough.
NeoSpartan
09-21-2006, 20:24
spartans will be 0.8. But they won't exactly be gaesatae tough.
:embarassed: :no: :embarassed:
Krusader
09-21-2006, 20:27
Ironic that an hour I ago I saw that the Spartiatai were added to the internal build and working.
Shame I can't post a screenshot of them...
~D
This unit is, without a doubt, the most anticipated on the boards. So mysterious.
Ironic that an hour I ago I saw that the Spartiatai were added to the internal build and working.
Shame I can't post a screenshot of them...
~D
:laugh4: punk.
buts its good to know that they'll be in for .8...after all, they are pretty much the most anticipated unit of the next build.
Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom
09-21-2006, 21:44
Ah ok, well I can wait for .08, however could someone please give me a god estimate for Spartiatai stats?
fallen851
09-21-2006, 22:47
Well any estimate depends on what system the EB team uses. Since the EB team is likely to at the very least changing the way they calculate charges, who knows. I also think QM gave up the job of unit balancing, so a new person could mean a new system.
And now I'm about to throw myself in a massive pit of fire (FLAME ON!), and say that the system the EB team uses is very unpredictable, in fact I hate it. I think elite units are too good, calvary not realistic and blah blah blah, which is why I'm making my own system, that will be entirely unique, realistic, and predictable, and battles will focus less on how many elite units you have on the battlefield, and more on tactics.
But just to try to answer your question, here is what I would expect:
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 19, 9, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.17
stat_pri_attr spear, long_pike
stat_sec 15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 16, 7, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 2, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2942, 741, 50, 80, 2942
And now I'm about to throw myself in a massive pit of fire (FLAME ON!), and say that the system the EB team uses is very unpredictable, in fact I hate it. I think elite units are too good, calvary not realistic and blah blah blah, which is why I'm making my own system, that will be entirely unique, realistic, and predictable, and battles will focus less on how many elite units you have on the battlefield, and more on tactics.Thats strange I usually win my battles with Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Peltastai the only units I have that could be called elites are the Generals Bodyguard and the two units of Pezhetairoi that are usually held in reserve :laugh4: (It can be hard to retrain them) athough sometimes when I'm feeling really rich I might have some Thorakitai. :cry2:
But then I play hard battle difficulty maybe thats the real issue here I don't know.
fallen851, remember that the charge bug causes a lot of problems for the mod. Although, I do think that something needs to be done to keep the AI from pumping out elite unit after elite unit simply because it has the money to do so... but that is probably a hardcoded issue.
Olaf The Great
09-22-2006, 03:39
If you guys are confused what they should look like, make them have a patch for.
1:Super fancy spartans.
2:Plain spartans.
Musopticon?
09-22-2006, 09:27
It's great that while 1.5 introduces spear push bug(this is being taken care off inteam) and phalanx-eating shieldwall it fixes charging finally.
It's great that while 1.5 introduces spear push bug(this is being taken care off inteam) and phalanx-eating shieldwall it fixes charging finally.
The shieldwall ability will be in .8? Will swimming be there too?
I don't believe it will. Not usre, but I tought it wasn't. I believe we'll use the macedonian phalanx (rtw's one) and that one used by the Rycalwre, soldurii,...
No shieldwall as far as I know. No swimming either.
Musopticon?
09-22-2006, 23:07
Did I write 0.8?
I meant the 1.5 patch in general.
Krusader
09-22-2006, 23:41
http://www.krusader.be/eb/spartan-crop1.jpg
Teleklos Archelaou
09-23-2006, 00:55
Oh my! What might that be? :grin: :2thumbsup:
I know! I know! Pick me!
It's the Bartix Red-Cloth-Tailed Shieldman!
iberus_generalis
09-23-2006, 01:38
this new model is entirely EB or is it made from someone outside the team? that shield and the glimpses makes me think of ATG's Spartans....
Musopticon?
09-23-2006, 02:02
Mmmm...spartans....
Oh, almost 100 posts!
CountArach
09-23-2006, 03:50
*Waits for people to comment on the Red Cloak...*
fallen851
09-23-2006, 04:46
*rants about the red cloak!* :furious3:
Trithemius
09-23-2006, 09:43
*Waits for people to comment on the Red Cloak...*
Indeed! Although "comment" is not what I am expecting. :sweatdrop:
Musopticon?
09-23-2006, 11:22
Is that a greave I'm seeing under the shield? Well, nevermind that now it looks like a great piece of work.
So, are you going to do several types of spartans? Mercs, city hoplites, maybe hellenistic phalanx-fighting hoplites?
Atreidis
09-23-2006, 13:29
I also liked Spartans but at EB's timeframe they were ****** up, nothing like the good old warriors of ancient Greece. They should be an average unit. Even the old system of professional warriors had failed.
Krusader
09-23-2006, 13:36
I also liked Spartans but at EB's timeframe they were ****** up, nothing like the good old warriors of ancient Greece. They should be an average unit. Even the old system of professional warriors had failed.
But it was reinstated.
The Spartiatai in EB represent Spartans who have undergone the training of the old system if the Koinon Hellenon/Cherominedean League had prospered instead of faltering. You can say, a kind of What-If? unit.
But they won't be any beasts ala Thermopylae myths. I'm fairly sure they shouldn't be better than Gaesatae or even similar. They will not get 2 HPs either.
Actually by 280BC the Spartan army was not a patch on how it was two hundered years earlier. It was good, but no where near as good in the feilds of displine, training or strength. They were really no different from any other type of hoplite in Greece except for their famous red cloaks (or is the story about their red coats myth?). I personally think they should not be included at all. They were no different so why should they be included.
If you must include another "special unique to one city" type of hoplite make in the Theban hoplite. They were much more dominating and powerful at this time than Spartans.
Actually by 280BC the Spartan army was not a patch on how it was two hundered years earlier. It was good, but no where near as good in the feilds of displine, training or strength. They were really no different from any other type of hoplite in Greece except for their famous red cloaks (or is the story about their red coats myth?). I personally think they should not be included at all. They were no different so why should they be included.
Several ancient writers explicitely state that the Spartans indeed used characteristically red cloaks, but did not wear them into combat. However, this was at the time of Thermopylae and the Peloponesian war, and the Spartans had changed a lot since then. The helot-system had been disbanded, so only the richest of Spartans still had the ability to devote themselves full-time to war. Other becames mercenaries. Equipment also changed over time. The EB hoplites will be an elite unit consisting of wealthy, experienced mercanaries. TA suggested that they will also be the KH bodyguard in 0.8, but this may change in later builds.
If you must include another "special unique to one city" type of hoplite make in the Theban hoplite. They were much more dominating and powerful at this time than Spartans.
Thebe was burned down by Alexander, and as far as I know it never recovered. They played no role of importance in the EB timeframe.
If you must include another "special unique to one city" type of hoplite make in the Theban hoplite. They were much more dominating and powerful at this time than Spartans.
After Alexander annihilated them and their city?
I think more regional variations of hoplites is a great idea, like the corinthians that are currently in the game. I certainly hope that the Spartan unit will be a elite one (closer to the baktrian agema than the iphikratean hoplite) to offer the greek player greater variation.
Having said that, I never quite understood this fixation with spartan hoplites. If I'm not mistaken, their superiority was mainly due to the fact that they were a professional army fighting militia armies.
Thebes was burned down by Alexander, and as far as I know it never recovered. They played no role of importance in the EB timeframe.
Sorry :oops: , I just remebered that after I wrote that. Thing is I was busy so I didn't change it. I'm sorry for the false info :oops: .
Change from what I said:
If you must include another "special unique to one city" type of hoplite make in the Theban hoplite. They were much more dominating and powerful at this time than Spartans.
A Syracusian hoplite would be better as they were still around. Sorry for supplying wrong infomation :embarassed: .
Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom
09-23-2006, 17:38
So by the time of EB, what state was Sparta, did they still follow Lycurgus's reforms? They could'nt have just completely forgot about there g lorious militairy past.
Ypoknons
09-23-2006, 19:05
I agree that there is an over-fixation with them, however we must note that the Spartans were extremely professional. Compared to say, Roman legionaires, Spartans citizens were brought up in an extremely martial culture from their earliest years, whereas the Legionaires were recruited well into their adulthood. This may contribute to a certain warrior spirit, although the extent of which I cannot say.
iberus_generalis
09-23-2006, 19:28
bring on the overpowered units...i notice that lately even in VH battles only get less boring with overpowred guys pounding my lines...well im playing as a roman...but nonetheless i prefer to see quite a few overpowered dudes around...makes me think more carefully what in do in battles so as not to get wiped out...
fallen851
09-25-2006, 06:30
Darn, KH will lose cavalry bodyguard?
vizigothe
09-25-2006, 06:38
Darn, KH will lose cavalry bodyguard?
You can always change that yourself
CountArach
09-25-2006, 06:45
Darn, KH will lose cavalry bodyguard?
I think it is brliiant. Much harder to play now, and makes for a very interesting game (look at Sweboz general... though they are incredibly overpowered)
Teleklos Archelaou
09-25-2006, 06:47
Yes and no. Yes, they will lose the cav bodyguard, eventually. I don't know if that will happen with 0.8 or with a later build though. Options for 0.8 will be temporary no matter what, if I understand it correctly. Could be Spartans, but I think they'll probably keep the cav unit they have now. I don't think the elite infantry they will ultimately be with are ready yet.
CountArach
09-25-2006, 06:50
Yes and no. Yes, they will lose the cav bodyguard, eventually. I don't know if that will happen with 0.8 or with a later build though. Options for 0.8 will be temporary no matter what, if I understand it correctly. Could be Spartans, but I think they'll probably keep the cav unit they have now. I don't think the elite infantry they will ultimately be with are ready yet.
Ahhhhh! The suspense is killing me! What could they be with?!!?!?!?!?!
Teleklos Archelaou
09-25-2006, 07:03
Oh, it's nothing supersecret. But we do want the KH general on foot - and there is going to be a picked hoplite unit that they will have as bodyguards. If they were just spartans as a faction, it would be spartiates, and we'd probably have a clearly royal unit and a regular spartan unit, but since the position of hegemon won't always be a spartan (it might be cool for someone to make a little patch for the final EB build - where the spartans are the royal bodyguard - and they could play picking faction heirs always as spartans), it's better not to have the spartans as bodyguards in that situation.
fallen851
09-25-2006, 21:15
I think it is brliiant. Much harder to play now, and makes for a very interesting game (look at Sweboz general... though they are incredibly overpowered)
This of course deals with the balancing issues...
NeoSpartan
09-25-2006, 22:15
Well, I can think of 2 options for Spartan Royal Guards:
A)If a General is from Sparta he will have Spartan Royal Guards
or
B)Only the Faction leader will have Spartan Royal Guards
I don't think it would be correct to give Spartan Royal Guards to every KH general.
Well, I can think of 2 options for Spartan Royal Guards:
A)If a General is from Sparta he will have Spartan Royal Guards
or
B)Only the Faction leader will have Spartan Royal Guards
I don't think it would be correct to give Spartan Royal Guards to every KH general.Unfortunately there can only be one general type the faction leader cannot have a separate guard. It would be a great feature though for every faction especially ones with kings although I guess you could give the various faction leader traits a bodyguard experience bonus to reflect the royal guard status but they would still look the same as every other general.
http://www.krusader.be/eb/spartan-crop1.jpg
You are evil!
But a spartan royal guard unit would be nice for generals with the sparta trait. As KH I almost always have a spartan as my faction leader. Just seems a waste to have a massive bodyguard unit and have a leader who is a city manager.
I doubt this could be built into the game but from my understanding since the spartans were all equally learned in the art of war entire phalanxes (I forget the term, the 160 man formation) would sometimes refuse to break off and disengage the enemy. They were disciplined but highly impetious.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
09-25-2006, 23:15
It is possible to have starting generals have a different guard than generals you get later. (ie: coming of age/ adopted/ marriage/ recruited)
hey, where did krusader post that tidbit of the spartan skin?
CountArach
09-26-2006, 00:24
hey, where did krusader post that tidbit of the spartan skin?
Last page.
It is possible to have starting generals have a different guard than generals you get later. (ie: coming of age/ adopted/ marriage/ recruited)
Yes. When you set the armies under the named general in descr_strat the first unit in the list will be the named general's unit regardless of what it is.
Foot
Teleklos Archelaou
09-26-2006, 18:41
Since there are a couple of threads on Sparta going here now, I thought I'd post this little summary (which I posted a few days ago on the internal board) for a historical FAQ of sorts.
(This FAQ entry is designed to *only* answer questions of why the Spartans are still around - not why or how they are depicted in game.)
Why are the Spartans still around?
They aren't exactly the same people who fought the Persians in 479 at Thermopylai, or that fought the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War. They had been accepting Persian money since the Peloponessian War, and even while Alexander was fighting them. Plutarch says that the Lakedaimonians might date the beginning of their corruption from their conquest of Athens, and the influx of gold and silver among them that thence ensued. Since their defeat of the Athenians (405-401) and their subsequent fall from glory at the hands of the Thebans (371-369), they had lost their Messenian slave labor force and their main source of income (368-366). But with the founding of Megalopolis and the demise of the Peloponnesian League, the Spartans do not vanish.
"Spartan leadership for half a century, with the exception of Agis III, had been apathetic and almost lifeless. By 281 BC, however, Areus was king in his own right, and the operation of foreign affairs was once again in the hands of an ambitious monarch who stood ready to make his bid for hegemony of the Peloponnesus" (Piper p.15). Areus reformed the old Peloponnesian League and marched north with a coalition in 280, but his allies did not seem to be as interested in following Sparta once the campaign was underway. The Messenians and Arcadians refused to help fend off the Gauls in 279 because they stated they were afraid the Spartans would reoccupy their lands if they did. Areus and his Spartans were strong enough to expell Krateros (half brother of Antigonos) and the Makedonians from Troizen and put a garrison of Spartans there instead shortly before our game starts. Then when Pyrrhos with Kleomenes brought his army against Sparta in mid 272, the Epeirote king brought 25,000 infantry, and 2,000 cavalry, along with 24 elephants. Although they invaded at the perfect time, after telling the Spartans they were not hostile to them and catching the Spartans at night unaware (Pyrrhos even told the Spartan ambassadors that he was about to send his son to Sparta to undergo the agoge training there!), the men and women of Sparta defended the city very well for two days until mercenary troops from Phokis, in the employ of the Makedonians, arrived to aid Sparta. The Spartans under Areus returned from Crete shortly afterwards, with 2,000 soldiers. With the worry of Pyrrhos put to rest, the Ptolemies' general financial support encouraged Areus to make a frontal attack on Korinth (265) and the Makedonians there, where he died. The Spartans were lead by Akrotatos then, who died in 260 attacking Megalopolis. All of these details indicate an active and at times quite successful, and at other times too overconfident, Spartan military under aggressive kings in the early third century. Their history till the reforms of Agis IV is quiet, but 20 years later, Agis did introduce major reforms in the Spartan military.
At the start of our game (272), the Spartans have an unknown number of citizen soldiers. The highest estimates in 272 would be about 2,000, but some of the soldiers Areus returned from Crete with were probably non-Spartans (Akrotatos had at least 300 Spartans with him still defending the city with the women though). After the wars with Pyrrhos at the time the number of property owning Spartiates (who had enough land to be able to contribute to the syssitia) dropped to as low as 100, there were still at least 600 others that owned a smaller amount of land and served as Spartiates. Their numbers were low in these times, and if the KH faction is not allowed to expand and defeat their enemies, the number of Spartiates found in the game will remain very low also. But if the KH is successful and does defeat the Makedones and the Epeirotes, and certainly if a few other agoge systems were established in other parts of the old Greek world (if they are very successful) then you might find more Spartiates in your campaigns on the map.
(For additional easliy obtainable reading, see: Plutarch's Life of Pyrrhos, Paul Cartledge's Hellenistic and Roman Sparta: A Tale of Two Cities, and if obtainable L.J. Piper's Spartan Twilight)
Piper, is he the one who does all the number crunching in his dissertation to try to put together the numbers of Spartans in the 3c and early 2c? I read someone's book on the Hellenistic Spartans while roaming the stacks in the library, but I don't remember whose book it was. Interesting read, though.
The 300 Spartans with Akrotatos are described as an elite group, and for those who might question the capabilities of the Spartans, those 300 defeated the Chaonian guard and some Galatian mercenaries in a critical action during Pyrrhos' siege. If they are an elite, might there reasonably be at least the same number (and probably several times the amount) of Spartiates? Or should we see the agema of Akrotatos as Plutarch's way of talking about the only real Spartiates in the city?
And while you could argue that a good many of Areus' troops are Kretans and assorted quality soldiers from other parts of the Peloponnesos, at least some of them are Spartans, judging by the narrative of their combat with an Epeirote rear guard south of Argos (Plutarch mentions both Spartans and Kretans). Actually, now that I think about it, an elite unit with Spartans and Kretans, associated with a king...sounds like a good picture of your KH general bodyguard unit.
Teleklos Archelaou
09-26-2006, 22:17
While I agree that the 300 with Akrotatos were most likely Spartiates, I would be shocked if Areus didn't have at least an equal number with him, and if I had to guess I'd think that his force of 2000 was divided somewhat equally between Spartiates and Kretans.
I don't know that Piper (a she :grin:) is the one you are thinking about. It may be, but there is no appendix on the matter or any special chapters or anything like that. Chapters are pretty much just a chronological march from Alexander to the Roman Imperial period. Cartledge's work is generally better I would suggest, and covers the same time period.
yeah, i know the book wasn't cartledge, because i was there to pick up cartledge's "sparta and lakonia," which had been misfiled, so i happened upon this book, which was pretty much a dissertation on cheap paper with a binding...the simple (but less effective) way of getting that first book out i guess.
and i gotta work on not assuming that scholars of ancient history--especially those with military leanings--are men; its gonna get me in big trouble one of these days!
Idomeneas
09-29-2006, 02:00
http://www.krusader.be/eb/spartan-crop1.jpg
some technical stuff. For the maiandros patern better use adobe illustrator to generate it and when done in the right size import it to photoshop. It will look real clear without those dents. I dont know if you did it in Corel or adjusted the opacity of layer properties in photoshop. The lamda is too roman with those serifs.
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