300 trailer

[Krusader]

http://www.worstpreviews.com/trailer.php?id=453&item=0

For the movie 300 based on the comic by the same name by Frank Miller. About the 300 Spartans who fought at Thermopylae.

Seems like to be a good enough action movie, maybe not 100% historically accurate or politcally correct :laugh4:

Anywho, don't expect Spartiatai in EB to be like these Spartans.

[Simmons]

Wow I don't really know what to say its either going to be really good in a surreal non historical action way (sort of like SG-1 but with blood and no science) or really really really bad.

[paullus]

i'm kinda leaning toward the latter (really really bad)...it looks like it might have been successful in the 80s, as a rock opera for a low quality hair band.

[iberus_generalis]

i don't know what to think of it...it looks another alexander movie...a fiasco...i looks a bit surreal...some unreal creatrures....but if in the end it good, i don't care if it0s unhistorical... but for now, i must say the arrow tips look a bit too exagerated, who would use such a thing? its not aerodynamic, and doesn't looks too real...and a movie about what? the massacre of 300 spartans by arrow fire? the would be all dead before they had the possibility of landing the first blow with their swords... the persians slaughtered them with arrows...so i don't see the point of making a movie about spartans...and after all, why do they keep going about with the spartan myth? thebans were like the spartans, but at least didn't sufered so shameful defeats...the spartans lost once to peltasts so..i guess the spartan miss is just unfunded reputation and propaganda...

but let's wait and see..maybe it will be a good movie...

[paullus]

No, the Spartans were certainly worthy of their reputation. They and their allies held out against a much larger force at Thermopylae, and defeated them at Plataea (at which the Spartans again played a critical role), they were the best hoplite force in Greece for a couple of centuries.

Saying they aren't good because of the defeat by peltasts isn't hardly fair: that signalled the end of hoplite supremacy; it could have happened to any unaccompanied hoplite force, and signalled the need for combined arms as cities with inferior hoplites began recruiting peltasts and more cavalry to try to even the balance against states like Sparta.

[eadingas]

Forget history, enjoy the movie :) It's a comic book adaptation, not a historical lecture... the comic was cool, and this looks like can be quite an entertaining piece.

[iberus_generalis]

i think the superiority of sparta, is no more than propaganda...sure they had good soldiers, but i think the things ppl say they did, are a bit exagerated...the superiority of sparta, is IMO like the superiority of USA, ppl say it in the news, but when one looks closely we see they are not so superior as they say...the sure did have a culture, and the americans do have good equipement, but that doesn't win everything..take the portuguese military forces, internationaly, and to the public, they are not known, as superior, quite the contrary, but in the military competitions the portuguese military rock, it's said by military experts, that our commandoes, and paratroopers, and common troopers are some of the most better trained, being trained in the arsher conditions, and as troops are as best as you can get, and some of our instructors are requested to go and teach in other countries like spain, britain, and france....but due to our small size, and international unimportance, our military forces go unoticed.. the same i feel happened with sparta and thebes, they had good soldiers and all, at the cost of everything that characterized them as hellenic(they were very poor in culture, and art), but some other cities like thebes, that might have been better than them, were eclipsed by all the propaganda that sparta was better....

i don't know the comic...but i do know that frank miller did sin city...and if sin city is an indicative of the quality...well i guess im gonna look for 300.....now all i have to do is find it in a comic store, and buy it...how many issues were there?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

ig - you are talking about vastly vastly different things here. Spartans fighting at Thermopylae and Plataea, against Persian armies who invaded Greece and very well might have totally extinguished the Spartans (and Athenians, but certainly not all greeks) is quite a bit different from American armies, be they drafted or volunteer, that are sent by their political leaders to other countries to fight.

As for propaganda, there is something to be said for it, but its not the main reason they were so successful. Being raised in a system that gave them the opportunity to train almost constantly on fighting gives them a big advantage immediately. Their reputation does come into play though - as it happened a number of times that armies would not fight them or fled more quickly if things started going badly against them. People don't pay as much attention to the perioikic armies that fought alongside them too though - they were extremely important as well. Still, they did fight and fight very well, and you can't just chalk it up to propaganda. The biggest battle of greeks vs greeks (till that time - about 390bc) that took place outside of Corinth on the Nemea River totalled about 50,000 greeks on both sides. Sparta and some Peloponnesian allies vs. Athens/Thebes/Corinth/Argos. Both sides hit and the right wings both had success, but the Spartans were much better able to exploit their advantage, wheeling around quickly on the flanks and cutting through the masses of their enemies instead of chasing routers like the Argives were doing on the other successfull flank. Only *eight* Spartiates died.

As for the movie, I would have much much much rather seen Gates of Thermopylae get the go ahead instead of this one.

[eadingas]

The Greeks had the best military ideas of the time (we're talking Persian Wars here, not later periods), and Spartans were the best to employ them. Simple as that.
Don't chalk every good thing about antiquity up to propaganda. There's nothing bad in admitting that some people were actually much better warriors than others. In an environment where equipment and tactics are pretty much equal all over - as in ancient Greece - it's morale and training that makes you stand out, and when you're raised and trained from childhood as a professional soldier you will have a distinct advantage over those who weren't.
Not to mention the hoplites were simply vastly superior to whatever the Persian army at the time could deploy. To use a modern comparison, when US Army deploys M1A1 tanks against their enemies, it's not a matter of propaganda that they win every land battle. They really have better troops and equipment.

[iberus_generalis]

we don't know if the "really" win the battles...we tend to see only the side the americans want us to see....or are you going to tell me that usa won in irak the first time they went there...i don't think so... but back to topic....
what is this "Gates of Thermopylae" movie? never heard of it? and never heard of 300 in my country...is it out? and the gates movie too?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

gates of thermopylae is a novel set around Thermopylae that the film rights had been bought up for it. It has not started production and will probably get shelved indefinitely ever since the 300 started. Who knows though - maybe USA or TNT or someone will pick it up and make a 4 hour miniseries out of it.

[MSB]

Can I just ask: What has this got to do with EB??? Are you putting The Battle of Thermopoly in 0.8 or something?

[Comrade Alexeo]

Once again, Hollywood is ruining a perfectly good story to try and make it "cool."

To me, the story - the REAL story - of the 300 Spartans is one of the greatest ever told. The story of 300 men willing to stand against 250,000 does not need to be made "cool" because its already awe-inspiring.

But, alas, it seems our country is full of too many stupid people that Hollywood feels they must appease. With one swift stroke Frank Miller has now prevented any other movie about Thermopylae from being made for years, if not decades. His use of real Spartan lines - like the one about the arrows - now automatically means that nobody else could use them, because people will think that they're some really cool line that Frank Miller came up with, not fact.

Thank you, Frank Miller, for aiding in the dumbing-down of America.

[Sarkiss]

gates of thermopylae is a novel set around Thermopylae that the film rights had been bought up for it. It has not started production and will probably get shelved indefinitely ever since the 300 started.
that's sad. im totally crazy about epics and loved Alex though it was screwed, still liked it. the more epics the better. bring them on!
i didnt see Sin City so dont know whats gonna come out of 300.
liked the trailer though. has some weird creatures and stuff but the spirit of the Sparta is right in there, screaming out loud.
'SPARTANS THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT!!! THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE!!!'

[iberus_generalis]

Once again, Hollywood is ruining a perfectly good story to try and make it "cool."

To me, the story - the REAL story - of the 300 Spartans is one of the greatest ever told. The story of 300 men willing to stand against 250,000 does not need to be made "cool" because its already awe-inspiring.

But, alas, it seems our country is full of too many stupid people that Hollywood feels they must appease. With one swift stroke Frank Miller has now prevented any other movie about Thermopylae from being made for years, if not decades. His use of real Spartan lines - like the one about the arrows - now automatically means that nobody else could use them, because people will think that they're some really cool line that Frank Miller came up with, not fact.

Thank you, Frank Miller, for aiding in the dumbing-down of America.


well comarade, americans, and the rest of the world will only get more and more dumbed down by holliwood and the Mass media, if they want to...i love hollywood movies(as well as some others not from the USA) and it's not because of them that i get dumbed down...sure "evolved" societes, are getting more and more lazy, and kids are only getting info and "education" through the tv screen...but there's no need to panic...let them be ignorant, don't you care about them...be an island of knowledge in the ocean of ignorance our world is becoming day by day...worry about yourself not geting dumbed down...you'll see that in time, you'll make private jokes, and feel above the rest of the common folk...and besides, have you never heard that information is power? you have info on something nobody suspects...and that gives you importance above them.. i used to think tv and hollywood were dumbing down humanity, i still do, but now i don't give a damn, cuz i worry about myself, and help others on their way to knowledge when im required, but i don't care if ppl around me prefer to be ignorant.... let them have tendencious news, let them have pop star girlie music, let them have soaps. i prefer dance music, punk rock, and good solid knowledge about the world i live in...

but comrade you are right thanks to this movie we won't see another movie about thermopylae for a long time, cuz those are the rules of the business...today, most directors, and studios make movies for the oscars, and don't care if they are good or not, as long as they are good to get prizes(politically correctness is a requirement)....that's sad that our world is so stupid, but what can we do?
after 300 they could do a good movie about Alesia...or about something historical...or redo quovadis, with realistical blood games, or even a good(read GOOD) Medieval era movie that doesn't focus the barbaric nature of the hundred year war, or the germanic barbarians(crusaders and all those papal fanatics), or the Christian Reconquista of Iberia, who is so far a rich soil for movies but with none made to date by a big studio...

lets just pray this movie is the Thing, and not another alexander, or another troy...let's hope this guys learned somethings with these two failures, and with Gladiator

and what is this new fixation hollywood has with men jumping high in the air(unrealisticly) and atack ppl with swords in mid air??? first the pitt's super jumps of death, and now 300 with something similar? can't they see that it's highly unrealisitical, a veteran would just step away, and extend his sword and impale the Superjumper in his sword????

and what is that fat monster with blades for arms in the trailer??? a boss from quake4? lol lets just hope this movie is great and that this strange looking glimpses have a more or less logic to be there....

[Tanit]

CURSE HOLLYWOOD!!!!!!!!

One day I will make a movie about Thermopylae that follows the historical reality, cause like others have said it is one of the most epic amazing stories ever made. And if I do make a Thermopylae movie I will make sure that the EB team has their say in its script and blocking. That's right, EB will rule the world of movies as well as games!

[Foot]

Its a comic book (that uses the cliched version of the battle) to excite us about history. Its a story of superheroes, so I'm not too worried about historical accuracy. In fact it looks quite fun, and i really like the art that has gone into the background and stuff.

Having said that I really don't like the way that Persia always is the evil empire thing I don't like (though its fair enough that they are depicted as enemies, its the moral conatations I don't like). I wish just once Persia was given the respect it deserves, though I guess if more of their literature and written history had survived maybe it wouldn't always be so one-sided.

Foot

[Sarkiss]

I really don't like the way that Persia always is the evil empire thing I don't like (though its fair enough that they are depicted as enemies, its the moral conatations I don't like). I wish just once Persia was given the respect it deserves, though I guess if more of their literature and written history had survived maybe it wouldn't always be so one-sided.

Foot
i agree.
you know i was amazed when visited exhibition - ' Forgotten empire' about Achaemenid Persia in British Museum. it represented so different views form what we used to. i.e. Alexander is not 'Great' but a barbarian who burnt down Persepolis, all stories from ancient Greek literature, that become a classical writing of Western civilization, describing Greek revolts and struggle against Persian oppression not more than some insignificant unrest in a distant part of an empire.
we surely need to see both sides of the coins to be able to come to the most comprehensive and fair conclusions.

[MSB]

CURSE HOLLYWOOD!!!!!!!!

One day I will make a movie about Thermopylae that follows the historical reality, cause like others have said it is one of the most epic amazing stories ever made. And if I do make a Thermopylae movie I will make sure that the EB team has their say in its script and blocking. That's right, EB will rule the world of movies as well as games!

:2thumbsup: Very well said Tanit! :2thumbsup:

:idea2: EB should rule the Gaming and Historical world! :idea2:

[Zaknafien]

a) its a comic book, its entertainment.

b) I ama stikcer for history as much as the next historian, but let your hair down for a couple hours and enjoy it for what it is.

c) sure, Spartiate supremacy may be overblown by centuries of mythology, but these are always based in some fact, and the Spartan warrior ethos and general culture were the basis for these later imaginings. They certainly earn their reputation for valor.

d) I know youre not comparing the United States armed forces with those of Portugal... :laugh4:

**As an aside, from experiences in both Afghanistan and Iraq Ive had the chance to work with a dozen armed forces of various european and other coalition nations. The only ones I would trust to do anything are the British, and, to a lesser degree, the Canadians. This is from first hand knowledge, working with these soldiers in firefights.

[Krusader]

Well, Darius' expedition in 490 BC was a "punishment expedition" to teach the Greeks a lesson for assisting the Ionian Greeks in their revolt. He might have wanted to conquer Greece to secure his western border. For the Persians, Greece was just a insignificant border territory (at first).

And in the years up until the rise of Macedon, the Persians were actively involved in Greek affairs and always managed to turn the citystates against eachother in a way which benefitted Persia.

It was the Greeks of the 19th century who when fighting for independence from the Ottoman Empire, begun calling the battle of Thermopylae and Persian Wars as a time when Greeks saved western civilization and culture from the evil Persians (who were portrayed like the Ottomans).

[vizigothe]

Once again, Hollywood is ruining a perfectly good story to try and make it "cool."

To me, the story - the REAL story - of the 300 Spartans is one of the greatest ever told. The story of 300 men willing to stand against 250,000 does not need to be made "cool" because its already awe-inspiring.

But, alas, it seems our country is full of too many stupid people that Hollywood feels they must appease. With one swift stroke Frank Miller has now prevented any other movie about Thermopylae from being made for years, if not decades. His use of real Spartan lines - like the one about the arrows - now automatically means that nobody else could use them, because people will think that they're some really cool line that Frank Miller came up with, not fact.

Thank you, Frank Miller, for aiding in the dumbing-down of America.

Curses! I guess entertaining, stylish and imagination are not allowed in your world. It is based off a comic book, not off a historical text.

Edit: And Tanit....no one will fund it and no one will watch it. Movies are for entertainment and to make details up to add to the drama and excitement. You will not be able to make a movie that is perfectly accurate and get people to fund it. Good luck anyway.

[Sarkiss]

**As an aside, from experiences in both Afghanistan and Iraq Ive had the chance to work with a dozen armed forces of various european and other coalition nations. The only ones I would trust to do anything are the British, and, to a lesser degree, the Canadians. This is from first hand knowledge, working with these soldiers in firefights.
a noob question out of curiosity.
does this have something to do with language barrier at all?
sorry for off top.

[Zaknafien]

we can continue this in PM if you like since its OT, Sarkiss, but a language barrier may be a small part of the problem, however generally no because the majority of officers and non-comissioned officers speak English. Its more from a culture stand-point, less discipline, in both appearance and military courtesy, response to orders, etc. Not to mention the glaring communication and transportation issues some countries militaries have, with sub-standard radios, weapons, very few computers or digital battlefield awareness sensors, and a lack of good off-road and armored vehicles. The planning and rehearsal processes of certain countries I won't mention are deplorable, by the way.

[MSB]

Well, Darius' expedition in 490 BC was a "punishment expedition" to teach the Greeks a lesson for assisting the Ionian Greeks in their revolt. He might have wanted to conquer Greece to secure his western border. For the Persians, Greece was just a insignificant border territory (at first).

And in the years up until the rise of Macedon, the Persians were actively involved in Greek affairs and always managed to turn the citystates against eachother in a way which benefitted Persia.

It was the Greeks of the 19th century who when fighting for independence from the Ottoman Empire, begun calling the battle of Thermopylae and Persian Wars as a time when Greeks saved western civilization and culture from the evil Persians (who were portrayed like the Ottomans).

Darius was not evil, or at least not by the standards of the age. The Persians and the Persian empire just stood up for the one thing that most ambitious peoples stood up for in the classical age: Power, glory and wealth to us and us only, brutality to all those who oppose us! Although it was a punishment expedition any faction who had promoted rebellion would have been crushed because they were a threat to sercurity. So lets say the Greeks had a fictional empire that had Dacia in it. if the Persians had promoted rebellion in Dacia the Greeks (particually the Spartans) would have retalliated against Persia.

Oh this world and it's reliance on stereotypes! What end is it comming to :wall: !!

[Krusader]

Darius was not evil, or at least not by the standards of the age. The Persians and the Persian empire just stood up for the one thing that most ambitious peoples stood up for in the classical age: Power, glory and wealth to us and us only, brutality to all those who oppose us! Although it was a punishment expedition any faction who had promoted rebellion would have been crushed because they were a threat to sercurity. So lets say the Greeks had a fictional empire that had Dacia in it. if the Persians had promoted rebellion in Dacia the Greeks (particually the Spartans) would have retalliated against Persia.

Oh this world and it's reliance on stereotypes! What end is it comming to :wall: !!

Either I'm writing bad or you can't read in context. I assume the former.

Darius wasn't evil no. He had every right to send that expedition to Greece, as the Greeks had supported the Ionian revolt.

And the last paragraph, when I write evil Persians in that context I meant how the Greeks portrayed them. If you have read history you will know the Ottomans were mainly portrayed as evil-doers in Europe, due to the many wars in the centuries before and them being Muslims and when the Persians were shown in the same light, well stereotypes are born.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Darius was not evil, or at least not by the standards of the age. The Persians and the Persian empire just stood up for the one thing that most ambitious peoples stood up for in the classical age: Power, glory and wealth to us and us only, brutality to all those who oppose us! Although it was a punishment expedition any faction who had promoted rebellion would have been crushed because they were a threat to sercurity. So lets say the Greeks had a fictional empire that had Dacia in it. if the Persians had promoted rebellion in Dacia the Greeks (particually the Spartans) would have retalliated against Persia.

Oh this world and it's reliance on stereotypes! What end is it comming to :wall: !!
Not quite the same. The Ionians were greek too though - don't forget that. Not saying that they were all BFF or anything, but still it's a little different to say that the Persians supporting a Dacian revolt from the greeks is like the greeks supporting a greek revolt from the Persians. :grin:

[iberus_generalis]

we can continue this in PM if you like since its OT, Sarkiss, but a language barrier may be a small part of the problem, however generally no because the majority of officers and non-comissioned officers speak English. Its more from a culture stand-point, less discipline, in both appearance and military courtesy, response to orders, etc. Not to mention the glaring communication and transportation issues some countries militaries have, with sub-standard radios, weapons, very few computers or digital battlefield awareness sensors, and a lack of good off-road and armored vehicles. The planning and rehearsal processes of certain countries I won't mention are deplorable, by the way.

zaknafien, as a military man you should be aware that equipment is not all in war...sure is a big part, but it's not all, how many times have armies with superior armament and logistics been defeated by enemies they deemed inferior? countless times...look at all mighty Rome...the first times they tried to conquer Celtiberians, lusitans, and the northern peoples of iberia, the parthians, they got shameful defeats, france against the english longbowmen, even in your country it happened(im talking about when you threw out the english)...so don't judge the military by the quality of their equipment, or by the diferent methods they use, they may look sub standard to you who was trained by USA, and got new guns, and high tech equipment, but if they are still used, maybe it still gets the job done...im not a military genius, never were although i got to be corporal during my recruit, and i don't have knowledge of the weapons of your country, but here we use some weapons and equipments that for you are considered sub standard, but nonetheless, if we ever needed to go to war like the USA does, we would not go badly... you should judge other military forces by their results and never by the equipment they use...never forget this...underestimation was always the path to defeat...and you know it...sure many military systems are not as good logistically as the army of your country, and that is a good thing, cuz if they were...well i don't want to imagine the world that way if you get my meaning...i don't fancy war, and inocent deaths=)

now back to topic
the persians are only seen as bad, cuz our view of ancient history is always from a greek/roman point of view...the greeks left more things written so we think the persians are bad, but that might not be true, and possibly the contrary..history is always written by the winners, as bad as it can be... but we can also say that the persians had some unusal social rules, and if m memory serves me, practiced human sacrifice, and other less than ethical activities, from our western cristian point of view...in all wars, there are no evil guys and good guys, evil is always on both sides, even those who say are good, can be seen as evil, cuz many times they liberate other societies out of selfish greed, and we can't forget that, there are always good persons on both fronts..i think the greeks and spartans specialy should not be seen as examples, and pinacles of virtue, and persians as brute barbarians full of vices..i prefer a much more grey view of life, not using absolutes..

[MSB]

Not quite the same. The Ionians were greek too though - don't forget that. Not saying that they were all BFF or anything, but still it's a little different to say that the Persians supporting a Dacian revolt from the greeks is like the greeks supporting a greek revolt from the Persians. :grin:

Ok mabye I should have said the Persians were promoting a rebellion in this fictional Greek empire in somewhere a bit more Persian like the land just above Armenia, but hey! Similar sort of thing!

[Zaknafien]

Iberus: Obviously superiority in materiel is not everyhing; I did not make that observation. I am mainly concerned with some countries planning methods and overall military standards, to include profesisonalism, physical fitness, and discipline within both the noncommissioned and comisisoned officer ranks. For example, the Romanian units in Afghanistan in paticular are quite sub-par---they are 80% overweight, over thirty years of age, and are not willing to engage enemy forces in firefights or aggressive operations. Regardless of the equipment they use (which, by the way is awful) it doesn't matter. a British commando armed with an AK-47 and a 1940s era radio will still preform better due to his professionalism, training, and esprit de corps.

On-Topic: It would be interesting to trace the origin of the Spartiate mythos; is it really Achean propaganda spread about? Were they really that much better fighters than the myrmidons, for example? I am not as well versed on Greek ancient sources as I am the Roman...:idea2:

[Musopticon?]

The movie is going to be cool, even better if it doens't have any female characters, since Miller can't write them. At all. Make a man-on-man muscle power movie! Long spears and glistening biceps! Testosterone-rama!

Ahem, I would like to see a miniseries of the Gates of Fire. It was a decent book and took it's history with open and loving arms.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Oh yeah - thanks Mus. Gates of Fire, not Gates of Thermopylae. I never can remember that title... :laugh4:

[Musopticon?]

It's a cool title for a cool book.

I just wished that there'd have been a bit more depth to the characters, none of them really were rememberable. Except Leonidas, but that's to be expected, since he's such a major character.

The book had a good Conn Iggulden-vibe with a some seasoning in the taste of Celtika.

[iberus_generalis]

who is the author of this gates of fire? sauron? lol now, seriously, im interested, whom should i look for, to find this book?

[Danest]

I noticed from the video journals on 300, that they are depicting the spartans as practically naked. It's one thing if 300 spartans faced countless overwhelming numbers. That's amazing in of itself. But if they did it without armor? Truly astouding. That an hour or two of arrow fire right at the start of the battle didn't kill or seriously wound every single one of them, shields or not, must have been nothing short of a miracle. Assuming, of course, that they really did forsake armor.

[Geoffrey S]

I bought the comic a few months ago, and it's brilliant. Beautiful art and a moving story. To be frank I couldn't care less about the historical accuracy, partly due to the comic being an excellent base for a very entertaining movie, but mainly because the actual battle and campaign are so shrouded in myths and distorted by entirely biased sources that it's an impossible goal to achieve regardless, and is hardly a priority for what will probably be in essence an epic popcorn flick. As long as it focuses purely on the battle and doesn't spend too much time on buildup; what I loved about the comic was the depiction of the utterly selfless sacrifice of the 300 and the brave role played by Leonidas. Again, historical accuracy be damned, the comic is moving in and of its own.

Unfortunately, the trailer isn't working for me. Copyright issues, apparently.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if there hadn't been a better option out there currently in my opinion that the making of this one scuttled. But I still am not that much of a fan of the "violence is enough of a plot" school of thought. There isn't much of a plot in this comic/movie after all - it's pretty much a paean to slaughter. That's possibly an interesting music video or cheer or sculpture, but for a movie I'd hope for a more complex plot than what I saw in the comic. Anyone looking for any classical justification of this "snootiness" (plot first, FX/CGI last) can take a look at Aristotle's analysis of tragedy (in his Poetics) and what is most important in one. :grin:

[Discoskull]

a) its a comic book, its entertainment.

b) I ama stikcer for history as much as the next historian, but let your hair down for a couple hours and enjoy it for what it is.

c) sure, Spartiate supremacy may be overblown by centuries of mythology, but these are always based in some fact, and the Spartan warrior ethos and general culture were the basis for these later imaginings. They certainly earn their reputation for valor.

d) I know youre not comparing the United States armed forces with those of Portugal... :laugh4:

**As an aside, from experiences in both Afghanistan and Iraq Ive had the chance to work with a dozen armed forces of various european and other coalition nations. The only ones I would trust to do anything are the British, and, to a lesser degree, the Canadians. This is from first hand knowledge, working with these soldiers in firefights.

Thank you.

[Foot]

i agree.
you know i was amazed when visited exhibition - ' Forgotten empire' about Achaemenid Persia in British Museum. it represented so different views form what we used to. i.e. Alexander is not 'Great' but a barbarian who burnt down Persepolis, all stories from ancient Greek literature, that become a classical writing of Western civilization, describing Greek revolts and struggle against Persian oppression not more than some insignificant unrest in a distant part of an empire.
we surely need to see both sides of the coins to be able to come to the most comprehensive and fair conclusions.

Oh yes, that was a great exhibition. In the book that accompanied it there was a beautiful introductory paragraph to the chapter on Persian administration comparing how Athens and Persia dealt with conquered cities under their control. Persia had a policy of non-inteference (for the most part) whilst Athens crushed those cities who did not accept democracy. The paragraph finished on a small note on how in our times the democratic nations are doing much the same as Athens, forcing democracy through foreign policy and how there is something to be learnt from the Persian model; which indeed there is.

Foot

[Musopticon?]

who is the author of this gates of fire? sauron? lol now, seriously, im interested, whom should i look for, to find this book?
It's by Steven Pressfield, but most of the historical work and such was done by experts.
Look here for further info. (http://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/0553580531)

[fallen851]

they were the best hoplite force in Greece for a couple of centuries. Saying they aren't good because of the defeat by peltasts isn't hardly fair: that signalled the end of hoplite supremacy

Well hoplites were still an important part of the battlefield when Thebes laid the smack down on Sparta. I think Spartans are overrated by history in general. They nearly cost Greece the war at Platea, and of course their defeat to Thebes doesn't bode well for them either.

Still I expect an overpowered Spartan in EB.

[EdwardL]

ugh.. i really dont want to have to type out responses to some of the misconceptions about spartan history so ill keep it short

1. the spartans were not the only greeks present at the battle. there were 700 thespians as well. there were originally 6000 other greeks there as well from other city states, but leonidas dismissed them at the point the fight would be truly ordained as futile. Alot of the other city states desired to leave as it was, some of the athenians preferring a battle to take place behind athenian walls for example. All heeded leonidas order save the thespians who refused, desiring to stay for the sacrifice.

2. the actualy size of the persian army present there varied by historical accounts anywhere from 200,000 to 1.7 million and herodotus outlandishly claiming they fielded 5.2 million men

3. casualties of the battle range for the greeks at all 1000 killed to the last man to that of the persian sustained casualties which were estimates of 20,000 - 50,000

4. As far as battle etiquitte is confirmed concerning equipment and gear, the spartans present at thermapylae were that of the kings bodyguard and would have enjoyed full access to the best armor available and as such history reports them as having body armor. spartans did not shun armor as a sign of weakness. they did however shun the bow as a sign of cowardice

5. historically what is debated repeatedly is the spartan red cloak. popular belief suggests that it was strictly ceremonial, whereas there are some accounts that the spartans wore them into battle to conceal the blood of their own wounds, wounds that the enemy might take advantage of. Also whether or not

6. Leonidas fought in the second row of the phalanx

7. the spartan reputation back then was as strong as it is today and for good reason. If a man is trained from youth to fight, chances are(damn good chances) that he is going to know something about warfare and how to kill people successfully without dying in the process. This is evident all over the peloponnese with historical accounts of victories with few casualties in alot of battles and with some with the enemies with numerical superiority. the spartan soldier of the time was viewed much as it is today, a courageous discipline, highly trained and motivated raw killing machine. the other city states werent ignorant to the time of day, they knew that sparta was a militaristic city state and therefore some of them hated them.for sure all feared them and most of them respected them. spartans were a pillar of inspiration at the time of thermapylae and this can be seen in the athenians decision to appoint a spartan in charge of the fleet, as well as the thespians stand with leonidas's 300 at the battle itself.

8. on the topic of RTW / EB timeframe itself. sparta did see a brief renewal of its legacy when the lycurgan regime was reinstated (i started a thread detailing the history of it. with enough trolling it can be obtained need you know more)

this movie isnt going to be 100 percent accurate, but it still retains its core meaning. the embodiment of courage against insurmountable odds.

[Conqueror]

Still I expect an overpowered Spartan in EB.

Why?

[aecp]

After seeing the trailer I'm convinced that they've chosen the right direction to take this movie, even if it's not the one I would have preferred. The only negative thing about it is that this probably means that Gates of Fire won't be turned into a movie anytime soon (if ever).

I don't think this won't by far be the worst possible depiction of Thermpopyle that could've been. They decided to make it a spectacular action movie with outrageous combat scenes, lots of blood, and the spartans themselves looking like male strippers. If you try to take that seriously, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. I think that the worst thing that could possibly have happened would've been a new Troy, or King Arthur. Those movies were truly terrible and as far as im concerned, succeeded neither in delivering enjoyable action, compelling plots, or historical accuracy. Even Alexander, with a renowned director behind it and all the right intentions, turned out to be mediocre at best.

For these reasons, I'd rather see some spectacular mindless violence in a vaguely ancient context than some bland and forgettable movie that can't decide if it want's to be a serious historical drama or just cash in on LOTR-esque CG battles and ends up failing at both.

Look at it from the bright side, at least there's no Brad, Angelina, Orlando, Colin, Kiera etc...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I find Troy quite interesting to use with myth classes (not showing it in class, but often with an extra credit viewing). Most students are horrified when they realize what the movie did. The best is when the few that haven't seen the movie before, but have learned the myths of Troy in the class, watch the film; seeing their jaws drop when Menelaus is killed or when other crazy things happened and then talking about it with them when it's over really makes them appreciate how good it could have been and how much better the story itself is (compared with the movie plot).

[paullus]

very true, I remember the shock when a bunch of people in a classics course I was in went to see Troy together, and Menelaus and Ajax are cut down in the first battle!

...and I've thought about using a bit of the battle set pieces in Alexander, as they're the only film representation of the Makedon phalanx, has anyone considered trying that? I'm not sure it'd be worth it, but its hard to explain the size of the sarissae and how different it was from most other forms of fighting.

[Comrade Alexeo]

One of my reenactor buddies was telling me about how a teacher friend of his got 20-foot-long PVC pipes and had his students use them while trying to march in formation, deploy in formation, etc.

It was apparently the most popular class he ever had.

[Soulforged]

I'd really want Mel Gibson to direct this kind of movies. He doesn't do an accurately history telling but he's good at directing and he always uses local and historical languages to do the movies, including the simulation of the accent.

I DON'T LIKE GREEKS SPEAKING IN ENGLISH. If this is a movie about greeks then take greek actors, or other actors who know greek, and do it that way. But its just my personal taste.

[Red_Russian13]

Look, I like Frank Miller's work. I dug Sin City a lot, and will probably enjoy Sin City 2 just as much. However, it is a tradgedy that the Pressfield novel, "Gates of Fire" was not used to make a movie. It's a superior story in my humble opinion.

I think that the only reason this one is being made is because it's got Frank Miller's name on it. Everyone loved the uniqueness of Sin City and that's why. Pressfield didn't stand a chance. No one outside of historical fiction really knows who he is.

Ho hum....

[Red_Russian13]

Good lord. I just watched the preview. I suppose that will have to do, eh? Not going to see this story made as a big budget flick again any time soon.

I hate it when they have synth music to movies about antiquity.

WHY, WHY, WHY!??!

[Red_Russian13]

Look at it from the bright side, at least there's no Brad, Angelina, Orlando, Colin, Kiera etc...

True, but it does have Gerard Butler from Phantom of the Opera. My wife's infatuated with him. So going to see this will be really fun for me! Yes, that's sarcasm.

Edit: Okay, sorry for not editing my previous posts. Here is another trailer:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/300/feature5/large.html

[Magnificant me]

I think it is going to be a good popcorn movie. Who cairs if you don't learn some thing from it, it will be fun to wach none the less.

[NeoSpartan]

HEY I know this isn't going to be 100% hitorically accurate, but still is going to be preatty darn good.

Oh by the way check out this clip of the trainning the actors had to go through. VIDEO JOURNAL #3 scroll down to watch it.
http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/video_journals.html

(man i am going to adjust my workout rutine just like the trainer says in the video)

[NeoSpartan]

OMG!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

The are putting MARTIAL ARTS in this movie. This is a quote from the STUNT COORDINATOR DAMON CARO: "Historcally there is really nothing... that classifies....there are no records of the actuall tactics that they used... u know the techniques" SO THEY MADE STUFF UP. FILIPINO INFLUENCED TRAINING, THAI, INDONESIAN, JAPANESE, CHINESE, "EVEN EUROPEAN"

AHHHHHHH....NOW I say this movie is going to S.U.C.K (my ******)

[CountArach]

OMG!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

The are putting MARTIAL ARTS in this movie. This is a quote from the STUNT COORDINATOR DAMON CARO: "Historcally there is really nothing... that classifies....there are no records of the actuall tactics that they used... u know the techniques" SO THEY MADE STUFF UP. FILIPINO INFLUENCED TRAINING, THAI, INDONESIAN, JAPANESE, CHINESE, "EVEN EUROPEAN"

AHHHHHHH....NOW I say this movie is going to S.U.C.K (my ******)

LMAO! That is so.... WRONG!

[MSB]

OMG!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

The are putting MARTIAL ARTS in this movie. This is a quote from the STUNT COORDINATOR DAMON CARO: "Historcally there is really nothing... that classifies....there are no records of the actuall tactics that they used... u know the techniques" SO THEY MADE STUFF UP. FILIPINO INFLUENCED TRAINING, THAI, INDONESIAN, JAPANESE, CHINESE, "EVEN EUROPEAN"

AHHHHHHH....NOW I say this movie is going to S.U.C.K (my ******)

Yes I know it will. All movies about history/legands based on history generally go a little bit far out and start getting people killed that wouldn't have been and start adding over the top modern bits. Just take Troy for example. The famous Agammendamon (I have no idea how to spell it, but he was the commander of the armies sieging Troy) was killed at the end. According to legend he got home and was poisoned by his wife and his wifes boyfriend. How could he have gopt killed like that and got home alive. Historical\historical legand movies should teach you something. If you see a historical/historical legand movie you very often (particually if you know little about the time period and you are under the age of 16) think that it is historical. So now lots of people are going to be thinking that Spartans were martial arts experts.

Oh what end is this world coming to!!!!!

[Musopticon?]

Yeah, the tale of Troy is veeeery historical.

[Atreidis]

Yeah, the tale of Troy is veeeery historical.

It's not history but a famous poem and legend. Would you like to see a movie for Kalevala where Vainamoinen (sorry for spelling) was killed in the middle of the movie??

[MSB]

Ok mabye Troy was not a fantastic example, but the seige of Troy DID HAPPEN, but Homer spiced it up a bit by putting a woman with god like beuty in it, a love story and the death of a hero. Actually thinking about it that's exactly what Hollywood is doing with the Spartans. However I still agree that it will be bad influence on under 16's and people that know little about this period. I also agree that Homer's version of Troy is a bad idea too. The story has overwriten the history so now most people think that Mycenaean Greece was all heros, huge walls, woodern horses and women. I just used Troy as an example because it was a popular movie. I have edited my origional post now so it says history and legend.

[Geoffrey S]

OMG!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

The are putting MARTIAL ARTS in this movie. This is a quote from the STUNT COORDINATOR DAMON CARO: "Historcally there is really nothing... that classifies....there are no records of the actuall tactics that they used... u know the techniques" SO THEY MADE STUFF UP. FILIPINO INFLUENCED TRAINING, THAI, INDONESIAN, JAPANESE, CHINESE, "EVEN EUROPEAN"

AHHHHHHH....NOW I say this movie is going to S.U.C.K (my ******)
Why not? Martial arts can mean anything, and various forms of martial arts were certainly known in and around Greece. Heck, one of the EB descriptions of a new unit specifically mentions an example of one. I wouldn't be surprised if in all their training learnt some form of martial arts, standardised stances and moves would be extremely important within a hoplite phalanx to prevent disruption of the lines; it absolutely doesn't have to be the stereotypical wire-floating thing overdone in movies, simply various techniques used within the phalanx to remove a target as effectively as is possible.

[MSB]

Why not? Martial arts can mean anything, and various forms of martial arts were certainly known in and around Greece. Heck, one of the EB descriptions of a new unit specifically mentions an example of one. I wouldn't be surprised if in all their training learnt some form of martial arts, standardised stances and moves would be extremely important within a hoplite phalanx to prevent disruption of the lines; it absolutely doesn't have to be the stereotypical wire-floating thing overdone in movies, simply various techniques used within the phalanx to remove a target as effectively as is possible.

Yes, but Chinese or far Eastern martial arts would not even have been heard of. Nobody really went to the far east till the middle ages. I agree that some form of martial arts would have been used, but not martial arts from the orient!!!

[Geoffrey S]

No, they said they were influenced by martial arts from the east. We know nothing, or very little, of the techniques used in Europe in the period depicted, and considering the fact that most examples of martial arts today can be found in the east it makes sense to use elements from that region to create a new convincing fighting style in 300; the trailer also quite clearly shows examples of this, with fluid moves allowing spartan troops to dodge and hack their way through persian lines. I think it's a non-issue, really.

As is clear from the above, I can now view the trailer. Some bits look great, others a bit dodgy. Sometimes the lighting looks completely off and it looks too obviously like the movie was shot infront of blue/green screens, but in other scenes the distinctive visual style looks beautiful.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Ok mabye Troy was not a fantastic example, but the seige of Troy DID HAPPEN, but Homer spiced it up a bit by putting a woman with god like beuty in it, a love story and the death of a hero. Actually thinking about it that's exactly what Hollywood is doing with the Spartans. However I still agree that it will be bad influence on under 16's and people that know little about this period. I also agree that Homer's version of Troy is a bad idea too. The story has overwriten the history so now most people think that Mycenaean Greece was all heros, huge walls, woodern horses and women. I just used Troy as an example because it was a popular movie. I have edited my origional post now so it says history and legend.
I think you veer too far towards taking the epic historically. I am certainly interested anytime a potential link can be made by archaeological discoveries, but Homer didn't just spice it up a bit, as you say. :grin: It's a great story, but you can't pick a single thing out of the Iliad and say that it actually happened. As for the story more broadly, you can try to tie it to a specific destruction layer at Troy, but there's not much more you can do, and even that doesn't provide much detail at all.

It's not just chance that Achilles' name means "grief to his people", and the first lines of the poem start (thus):
Sing, O goddess, the anger of "grief to his people", that brought
countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send
hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs
and vultures... :laugh4:

[Fondor_Yards]

One of my friends was able to get into the 1st private screening. SAys you won't be dissapointed. Says hoplite warfare will be done correctly, the whole 9 yards. *He is a historian and teacher, so he knows what he is talking about*

[NeoSpartan]

No, they said they were influenced by martial arts from the east. We know nothing, or very little, of the techniques used in Europe in the period depicted, and considering the fact that most examples of martial arts today can be found in the east it makes sense to use elements from that region to create a new convincing fighting style in 300; the trailer also quite clearly shows examples of this, with fluid moves allowing spartan troops to dodge and hack their way through persian lines. I think it's a non-issue, really.

As is clear from the above, I can now view the trailer. Some bits look great, others a bit dodgy. Sometimes the lighting looks completely off and it looks too obviously like the movie was shot infront of blue/green screens, but in other scenes the distinctive visual style looks beautiful.

Oh I don't so. Did u see the Vedio Journal #5???? That stunt coordiographer is a martial arts expert and he Will Put them in. For example, In that video u see the spartans raising their shields above their heads to stab with the spears.

[Discoskull]

Yeah so actually this movie looks to be extremely entertaining. Definitely not a "period piece."

Just remember. It's a comic book movie, not a history lesson...which, I think, will be quite obvious to anybody with half a brain who watches it, even the pre-teens.

[NeoSpartan]

true, true... the director even says it "Its a comic book adaptation" and Frank Miller said he wanted to make a Graphic Novel of Thermopoly not a Historical account of it.


But still, it bugs me that they are putting South Asian martial arts in this movie.

[Atreidis]

Yeah so actually this movie looks to be extremely entertaining. Definitely not a "period piece."

Just remember. It's a comic book movie, not a history lesson...which, I think, will be quite obvious to anybody with half a brain who watches it, even the pre-teens.

Not so sure about that. Kids these days....:no:

[Musopticon?]

It's not history but a famous poem and legend. Would you like to see a movie for Kalevala where Vainamoinen (sorry for spelling) was killed in the middle of the movie??


I've seen the Getai make a type 3 in Sarmiszegethusa. Which is bad since they can only get type 1 in 3 cities, including that.

Actually, yes. That would be a lot more believable than going to the hall up high(or whatever the Kalevalan equivalent of heaven was) in a flying boat.

See, it wouldn't degrade the character. Adaptation happens all the time, it's just stupid to judge anything prematurely.

[MSB]

I think you veer too far towards taking the epic historically. I am certainly interested anytime a potential link can be made by archaeological discoveries, but Homer didn't just spice it up a bit, as you say. :grin: It's a great story, but you can't pick a single thing out of the Iliad and say that it actually happened. As for the story more broadly, you can try to tie it to a specific destruction layer at Troy, but there's not much more you can do, and even that doesn't provide much detail at all.

It's not just chance that Achilles' name means "grief to his people", and the first lines of the poem start (thus):
Sing, O goddess, the anger of "grief to his people", that brought
countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send
hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs
and vultures... :laugh4:

Thats what I mean. There probably was once some sort of record of the conquest of Troy out there somewhere, but I belive that Homers version of Troy (The Illiad) is probably based on a TRUE invasion of Troy by the Mycenaean Greeks, before the Dark Age of Greece. If I am correct Homers version was written in the Dark Ages (not sure what year, but I think it was in the 700'sBC, during the "Dark Age" of Greece)
The evidence:

There is evidence from the site of Troy that the 4th or 5th version of the city was invaded and burnt.
There is also evidence of a war, but it would not have been about something as silly as a queen, Troy and the surrounding area had lots of bronze and other valuable trade resources.
Although there is no evidence of this I think that the woodern horse was either a horse shaped battering ram or one with a horse shaped cover.
OR: An earthquake could have caused the walls to fall in (Troy is near a fault line), and if the earthquake had helped the Greeks so much they would leave a statue of the god of earthquakes who was Poseidon. And we all know what form Poseidon assumed in statues...
A horse!!


And slightly off topic, this is my 80th post. HORRAY!! ~:cheers:

[aecp]

New HD trailer is up: http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/300/hd

Two words: armoured rhino...

Anyways, this will either be the most spectacular "ancient battle"-movie ever or unintentionally hilarious. I think it's pretty safe to assume that it won't be mediocre though.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Somehow I missed that rhino in Herodotos' account. Oh well.

[Sarkiss]

Somehow I missed that rhino in Herodotos' account. Oh well.
:laugh4: :laugh4:

[Discoskull]

You cannot imagine my distress upon seeing this trailer.

I JUST designed this thing not even a month ago, a cataphract rhino, for a fantasy-esque story I'm doing.
Here I thought I had something original...

https://img433.imageshack.us/img433/760/cataphractrhinopl2.jpg

@#$% you Frank Miller!
May your genius mind burn in heck...

Oh, and, despite the fact this movie will be the definition of ahistorical, I think I will enjoy it - it's sort of like the super-exagerated-opera version of Thermopolai (sp?).
It will be very pretty, in any event.

[MSB]

Oh, and, despite the fact this movie will be the definition of ahistorical, I think I will enjoy it - it's sort of like the super-exagerated-opera version of Thermopolai (sp?).
It will be very pretty, in any event.
Hmmm, I would have much rather have had historical accuracy than amazing special effects.

[Musopticon?]

Great minds think alike, eh?

I thought it was damned cool. And hell, if elephants and camels, then why not rhinos?

[NeoSpartan]

now that is just too much.... It WAY OFF. :no:

[Discoskull]

Oh, I'm sure the movie will begin with a disclaimer ( :no: )...and again I say it will be ridiculously obvious to anybody watching that it is in no way historically accurate - it has monsters, war-rhinos, and more than a couple of the Persians have claws.

If any average person with no knowledge of history whatsoever sees this movie and thinks it was all real, then they shouldn't be allowed to breed.

Sure, it would be incredibly awesome if somebody made an accurate epic movie version of Thermopolai (I love period movies, even more than over-the-top action-operatic special-effects extravaganzas), but we aren't exactly talking about the Battle of Zama, are we? It's darn near impossible to make a completely accurate version of this event, from what I've heard and read...and this movie is from a graphic novel.
It will at least be very accurate to the graphic novel, thanks to the success of Sin City. And the artistry of the visuals themselves looks spectacular - it's art.
It is what it is. Just think of it as historical fantasy, if that lessens the pain.

If they were making a movie about the Crusades, and it had monsters, war-rhinos, and ninjas floating around, you can be assured I'd be singing an entirely different tune...maybe...

Myself, I can't wait to sit down with a big bag of popcorn and enjoy the hell out of it. And this is all I will say.

edit: Though I was rather suprised to see a war-rhino :laugh4:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What I'd love hanging over my fireplace: A large scale, 17th century style, oil painting of the battle of Thermopylae, with cataphract rhinos charging, ninjas climbing up the face of the cliff, Superman hovering above and shooting at Persians with lazar eyes, pirates down below in the water, flaming pigs being lit and sent into the mix, scantily-clad amazon horsearchers firing from the edge, and Wolverine in the middle slashing through alongside the Persian immortals.

How could you *not* be the coolest person in the world if you had that hanging in your living room?!

[Discoskull]

What I'd love hanging over my fireplace: A large scale, 17th century style, oil painting of the battle of Thermopylae, with cataphract rhinos charging, ninjas climbing up the face of the cliff, Superman hovering above and shooting at Persians with lazar eyes, pirates down below in the water, flaming pigs being lit and sent into the mix, scantily-clad amazon horsearchers firing from the edge, and Wolverine in the middle slashing through alongside the Persian immortals.

How could you *not* be the coolest person in the world if you had that hanging in your living room?!

Now THAT'S a bit much...I'll start working on it right away. The only thing I'll add will be war-anacondas. With gold chain leashes. Held by 3-breasted women.

[Bonny]

Two words: armoured rhino...

three month ago i bought the 300 comic book, and it is imho a great piece of art. But i can't find a single Rhino in the whole book :inquisitive:

[Musopticon?]

Artistic freedom.


Again.

[MSB]

What I'd love hanging over my fireplace: A large scale, 17th century style, oil painting of the battle of Thermopylae, with cataphract rhinos charging, ninjas climbing up the face of the cliff, Superman hovering above and shooting at Persians with lazar eyes, pirates down below in the water, flaming pigs being lit and sent into the mix, scantily-clad amazon horsearchers firing from the edge, and Wolverine in the middle slashing through alongside the Persian immortals.

How could you *not* be the coolest person in the world if you had that hanging in your living room?!
How could you have a 17th Century portrait with Superman in it. He was 1900s and (if I am correct) in the 1600s they had no idea what a "ninja" was.

[Trithemius]

How could you have a 17th Century portrait with Superman in it. He was 1900s and (if I am correct) in the 1600s they had no idea what a "ninja" was.

Maybe TA means a 17th century Japanese painting?

[MSB]

Maybe TA means a 17th century Japanese painting?
That explains the ninjas, but what about Superman? He wasn't around in Japan in the 1600s and how could he be shooting at the Persians with laser eyes? That is just too far fetched for the 1600s. Correction: way too far fetched, even for Japan or China.

[Trithemius]

I find Troy quite interesting to use with myth classes (not showing it in class, but often with an extra credit viewing). Most students are horrified when they realize what the movie did. The best is when the few that haven't seen the movie before, but have learned the myths of Troy in the class, watch the film; seeing their jaws drop when Menelaus is killed or when other crazy things happened and then talking about it with them when it's over really makes them appreciate how good it could have been and how much better the story itself is (compared with the movie plot).

Have you, or anyone, read Age of Bronze (http://age-of-bronze.com/aob/index.shtml), the comic by Eric Shanower? I have been enjoying it to date.

[Trithemius]

That explains the ninjas, but what about Superman? He wasn't around in Japan in the 1600s and how could he be shooting at the Persians with laser eyes? That is just too far fetched for the 1600s. Correction: way too far fetched, even for Japan or China.

He flew really fast around the earth a lot and went back in time, ala one of those silly movies.

[edyzmedieval]

High testosterone action and lots of screaming. ~D

[Krusader]

What I'd love hanging over my fireplace: A large scale, 17th century style, oil painting of the battle of Thermopylae, with cataphract rhinos charging, ninjas climbing up the face of the cliff, Superman hovering above and shooting at Persians with lazar eyes, pirates down below in the water, flaming pigs being lit and sent into the mix, scantily-clad amazon horsearchers firing from the edge, and Wolverine in the middle slashing through alongside the Persian immortals.

How could you *not* be the coolest person in the world if you had that hanging in your living room?!

No Screeching Women? Or battledruids who can shapeshift into dragons?

[edyzmedieval]

No Screeching Women? Or battledruids who can shapeshift into dragons?

What about Berserkers and Cannon Elephants?

Dissapointed. :no:

[Geoffrey S]

That rhino catapharct is brilliant. The new triailer looks o much better than the first one btw, better pacing and whatnot.

[Watchman]

To be fair, a really accurate movie of Thermopylae would really be a tad boring. The main action would be the assorted Persian troops trying to fight through (and dying in droves against) the Greek shieldwall in the bottleneck for several days after all - that's prone to get old after a while.

The Greek rearguard getting turned into pincushions at the finale would probably be really a tad anticlimatic too.

[Musopticon?]

Something I posted at TR.net(in response to Tiberius Nero):

"I understand where you are coming from with the ideological complaints. Have you read any of Sin City or Elektra Lives, also by Frank Miller? He has a distinct style, both as a writer and a penciler. When 300 came published, it was the closing age of the American Gothic fad in comics(Hellblazer, Lucifer, etc) and reworks like 300 weren't that rare. I think Miller tried to not only make the Spartans a military elite, but the "perfect state", like Supermen in the ancient times. He managed in that, but the history and really the sacrifice sort of paled, since it was like they were destined to die at the gates of fire and weren't really troubled about it. What is funny is that this kind of idea is straight against American Gothic, since its main thing was portraying heroes as flawed things. Normal people.

Still, 300 is an awesome graphic novel and this is a direct adaption to movie format. Considering that, the movie itself shouldn't be criticized for historical inaccuryacy, since it's not striving for that anyhow. Neither is it creation of Hollywood or any kind of bloated opressive indrusty that tries to brainwash everyone to like brainless crap. What people need to see this as is Ancient Justice League, to use modern comparison. It is there to entertain and show heroism, going to tirades over it's hollywoodism is really pointless. Kataphract rhinos and the overpowering macho power should see to that. Look at it with the same membrane you listen to music. Leave the Osprey-o-matic googles home and enjoy the movie for what it is.

Or stay here and complain about the nastynasty and vile Hollywood suckvortex. I'm gonna laugh at you."

Oh, and check this review by the historian Victor Hanson: http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html
"Again, purists must remember that 300 seeks to bring a comic book, not Herodotus, to the screen."


Edit: I should totally check my posts for swearing before posting them here.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yes. The story is about free dudes fighting for freedom against tyrants.

Anyone remember how bad the Billy Bob Thornton 'Alamo' movie was though? It still can stink no matter what the chief point of the story is. Imagine the Alamo done as a CGI story. With Santa Anna's cataphract'd burros.

I still would rather see a more historically accurate version of the story. (giggles when thinking about the old movie about the 300 Spartans - where Themistocles actually makes a last second visit to see Leonidas right as he is sending the last other Greeks away. Themistocles gives him a pep talk, and Leonidas tells him to depart and bravely lead the Greeks at Salamis to defeat the Persians at sea. :laugh4:)

[aecp]

A new trailer is out:

http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/300_hd.html

Looks pretty spectacular, altough i wonder what's up with all the mutants. I count three so far, where did miller get that from? I'm also looking forward to the inevitable scream-down finale between Leonidas and catamite-Xerxes.

[Sarkiss]

thanks for the link. they also have eles in there, as if cataphract rhino wasnt enough:laugh4:
looks pretty cool though.

[Dr Jacob]

The Rhino is dumb lol

Well i dont really like a fantasy movie about historic facts , if all history was a fantasy thing , that would be ok .


Alexander Movie had the potencial to be the greatest movie ever .

Alexander has:

Great music - > composed by Vangelis.

Great scenarios and relly hellenic feeling

Great feeling of epic , battles etc

Great image quality .

Great Soul


But ! had bad acting and actors could be better , also they exagerate on the gay side of Alexander and some acting was very bad and exagerate!!
The Alexander father was very well performed has some other Alexander soldiers etc

Some parts of the movie i really like it , this movie has so much potencial and is not hollywood feeling , like troy or gladiator , this Alexander movie was far more mature and realistic

[keravnos]

Every western generation tells of sparta...in its own special way.

It defines the moment in time, in which certain ideas and morals were born.

I LOVED 300 as a comic. I initially was VERY afraid it would turn nasty.

Seeing that newest flick made a believer out of me.
(WARNING... This is NOT history. Per History Spartans would be armored to the gills, not bearing their torsos to be arrow and spear bait.)

But it is ONE HELL OF A TALE!

...and a small hint. If you do like the greek voicemod, since I was the one doing the shouting, well, you can understand who I wanted to honour... :2thumbsup:

[Tiberius Nero]

I didn't mind the historical inaccuracies (equipment, rhinos, elephants, ninja immortals, Persians from outer space or whatever), but I did mind the ideological anachronisms, like that the Spartans are conscious that they are defeating the old world of the irrational represented by the mindless Persian horde and bringing about a new era of reason. I mean come on now what sort of childish rubbish is that? Leonidas is a hero of the Enlightenment and he knows it? Give me a break...

[Sarkiss]

...and a small hint. If you do like the greek voicemod, since I was the one doing the shouting, well, you can understand who I wanted to honour... :2thumbsup:
'SPARTANS, TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!!' i loved it!

[qvcatullus]

Agree with a few of the folks above...
It's a comic book, not a history text. Sure, that doesn't mean that it will automatically be good, but then again it could be pretty awesome. Does anyone know the movie 'The Warriors' from the late 1970's (there's a console game version that's pretty popular). It's hard to imagine that anyone (who doesn't deserve it, and was pretty hopeless to begin with) would think, after watching the movie, that Xenophon's 10,000 got stuck in downtown New York because the bad guys wouldn't let them on the subway; instead, you come away from it with a new appreciation of a timeless story from a different (more approachable to the contemporary audience) point of view. Now, I'm sure there are people who hated the warriors, just like I hated that 'update' of Romeo and Juliet with that diCaprio child, but there are audiences that got a lot of entertainment (and maybe edification) out of both.
Some of the bits (like the movie clearly being almost entirely green-screened) are hallmarks of the director's style; it's part of what makes it comic-booky. Some people don't like it, but I thought it made Sin City pretty awesome (despite that annoying girl from Gilmore Girls).

To answer another comment above: If Miller announced that he was making a remake of the Alamo that involved cataphract rhinos, I think I'd buy a ticket just to see what he'd done with it. It might be terrible, it might be awesome, but either way, I don't think I'd come away with the impression that Santa Anna's rhino-dragoons turned the tide of the real battle.

[Casmin]

I didn't like this graphic novel. It was like Marlilyn Manson meets ancient history.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well, well, well... It seems that Iranology did not have a good enough laugh at the disgrace that was "Alexander" after seeing a black woman (Rosario Dawson) act as Rauxhshanna, the daughter of an Irano-Bactrian chieftain, or the awful rendition of Gaugamela that depicted the Persians as an amorphous mob with no sense of organization nor the slightest glimpse of uniform. The Persian cavalry? Why, we only see Bessus. Mazaeus? No where to be seen except for the few seconds we see close-ups on a despairing Parmenion. Pathetic. I know that Alexander won that battle, but through strategy, not because Alexander was meeting a mediocre army lead by a moron. Where was Issus? River Granicus? Alexander invaded Persia. Not the other way around. Seems that the otherwise highly esteemed Dr. Fox made himself look like a complete clown. Gee, thanks for the burqa, you jackass... -_-

You know, guys, it's movies like these that just makes me long after a movie about the Parthians, under the banner of Rustam of the Suren clan (To you he is known as Surena). Parthian cavalry, smashing down the flanks of Seleucid phalanxes, just like steel cutting through hot butter, or how Surena himself scaled the walls of Seleucia just like Alexander scaled the walls of Tyre. Gaugamela? Iranians counter with another triumph, Carrhae. I mean, jesus christ, if Hollywood is going to brag around with the victories of the west against the east, they have already lost all their credibility halfway into the road.

Does anyone else long for a movie about Shapur I and his triumph against three Roman emperors?

http://www.jamejamshid.com/images/sasani-shapur/shapur-parsi-valerian-phillip-gordian3.jpg

The poor chap under Shapur's horse is supposed to be Gordian. The guy kneeling in front of Shapur is Philip The Arab, and the one who Shapur is holding (The captive) is Valerian. This is not a literal representation, but a symbolic one, except for the case with Valerian.

As for the movie about the 300 Spartans, I actually waited all this time to see a movie adaptation of "Gates of Fire", but instead some fantasy'esque garbage with a loose basis (Oh look, some black dude with a shitload of piercings is going to be... huh... Xerxes???) on the actual battle. Here we see pachyderms. Ok. So three-hundred Spartans and a few rhinos. Yes, realism has gone down the drain. The old greek phalanx is worthless against such massive animals, I mean, don't we call rhinos and elephants pachyderms because of their thick skins? I mean, except for the fact that this battle of Thermopylae actually was a siege, in which the Persians waited for four days before they decided to attack the Spartans (And four days is more than enough to evacuate a city like Athens) one reason the Spartans managed to hold out for so long was solely because of the location, strongly favouring a phalanx formation. Not because of some mythical übermensch capabilities. The Persian strength was resting on the usage of cavalry.

No, I'm not by any means claiming that the Iranians are superior than the Graeco-Romans, but I am rather commenting on the ridiculous penis-measuring contest Hollywood has arranged. Greeks and Romans have had their triumphs, and so have Iranians. All three have had their moments of humiliation.

Hollywood: No I meen liek, joo r teh liar. Teh 300 Spartans crushed liek 250 000 Persiens lol!

-_-

And for the record, Vangelis disappointed me with his poor soundtrack in "Alexander". "Drums of Gaugamela" was very underwhelming and far too synthesized. The battle of Hydaspes river however was better.

...Oh yeah, and why is Ephialtes the goat-herder depicted as some fiendish beast in chains? And at the risk of sounding "racist", why is the Persian emissary uhhhh... black? Oh and Xerxes, oh yeah I think I already mentioned it. It deserves a second mention. Oh and what about those goblins with claws and deformed faces? Those rhinos? Those ninja cataphracts of Persia? The Immortals with monkey-masks? Those stupid and over-the-top arrowheads? That stupid, obviously fake facial hair of the "Persian" that is supposed to act as Hydarnes of the Immortals? Gaaaaaaahhhh!!! This movie better be as badass as "Conan The Barbarian", because that is all it has going for ~:cheers:

[Zastrow]

Gonna be a kickass movie. :beam:

[aecp]

Long post ahead.

I seriously can't understand how anyone could be so offended by this movie (unless you want to be, which seems to be the case sometimes, wether it's caused by nationalistic over-sensitivity or otherwise). I mean it's clear from the outset that isn't meant to be historically accurate. Like many others I would have preferred to see a filmization of the Gates of Fire that did try to keep as close to history as possible, but that's just not happening. I found this on another forum and thought it summed up my opinions pretty well:


...I hate when movies present themselves as fact when they aren't. Movies like JFK, A Beautiful Mind, and countless others, are harmful because they have a sheen of seriousness and end up as fact to those too ignorant to educate themselves on the topic any further. JFK has become the default version of reality for many people's view of that event, despite it getting almost nothing of consequence right. A Beautiful Mind more or less left its audience with the lesson that severe schizophrenia can be solved by the love of a beautiful woman.

300 is nothing like that. The creators aren't claiming this should be shown in classrooms as history. It's an exercise in style using a historical event (and one which is hardly known in exacting detail) as its inspiration.

I think the best we can hope for is a very entertaining over-the-top action movie, (and the trailers look promising in that regard) and that its success will open the door for more movies based on ancient history.

And I don't think it's right to criticize this movie for being typical of Hollywood. The movie will be faithful to Frank Millers graphic novel and nothing else. And in my opinion thats a whole lot better than the atrocious treatment of history by Hollywood studios in the past, just look at crap like "The 13th Warrior" or Troy.

Lately I've been hearing great things about Apocalypto and that has made me hope Mel Gibson will make a movie based on ancient european history. Even thought i don't agree with his opinions he's a talented director, knows how to make a good battle-scene and has been using authentic languages in his latest films.

And that brings me to my biggest concern about 300, the motivation of the Spartans and Leonidas. I understand that it's because Miller made FREEDOM the main theme of his novel, but it just feels so... wrong. First of all it feels overplayed because it's been done to death in Braveheart and Gladiator. Second of all it feels ill-suited to the spartans in particular. It seems incredibly one-dimensional that filmmakers want us to believe that the only two reasons men did anything in ancient times were FREEDOM (Gladiator and King Arthur) and/or GLORY (Alexander and Troy) I think a bit more depth to the characters and their reasoning would go a long way to improve the quality of this kind of movie in the future.

[Towwb]

No, I'm not by any means claiming that the Iranians are superior than the Graeco-Romans, but I am rather commenting on the ridiculous penis-measuring contest Hollywood has arranged. Greeks and Romans have had their triumphs, and so have Iranians. All three have had their moments of humiliation.


Best of luck getting something with Middle-Eastern heroes to sell to the public. Particularly Middle-Eastern heroes that most Americans haven't heard of. People don't go to movies to learn, and they don't go for stuff they know absolutely nothing about. People have heard of Alexander, and the Trojan War, and the 300 Spartans. They haven't heard of Parthia, or Surena. They won't be interested, so it won't sell, so it's too large of a business risk to invest in. That leaves independent films, but then you lose money for costumes/set design, actors, and special effects, so you have a harder time doing history justice.

[oudysseos]

Never mind the movie, I want to to see "300 Total War", a minimod based on Frank Miller's art. That would be truly kick-ass.

[kambiz]

Thank you very mutch "The Persian Cataphract" ,300 milion points for you "Savar e Parsi" :2thumbsup:
Let's discuss about untold aspects of the issue.Towwb said "People don't go for stuff they know absolutely nothing about" ,I don't know ,it needs a research to be justified.And aecp says "I think the best we can hope for is a very entertaining over-the-top action movie, (and the trailers look promising in that regard) and that its success will open the door for more movies based on ancient history." ,Perhaps you're right ,but As far as I know Historical (And epic)movies are so popular amongst people and they can bring lots of people to the theaters.
I want to talk about social part of the issue (And perhaps political one) who I discusse about them in another forum(Rise of Persia).
Why you westerners suppose that other peoples should have the same amount tolerance you have? Democracy and human right says "You should respect eachothers and eachothers beliefs".You may endure if someone talk openly about your beliefs ,but they don't and you should respect it and consider this fact.You want to criticize a belief or historical character ,good to you ,Then do it with yours (Like jesus or neron or Lincoln or...) otherwise you may see the same reaction for example muslims did when pop said somthing about islam a few weeks ago.Why they(For example muslims) are not like us? I don't know ,Maybe because they don't have freedom (And democracy) you have in the west.Imo one the advantages of freedom and democracy is it will increase people's tolerance to eachothers.This is very important note you westerners should consider and ofcourse you should responsible to your treats.

Ops ,I have to go out.Will continue later.
And "The Persian Cataphract" ,I'm already studying http://www.jamejamshid.com/ ,It sounds interesting~:)

-Kambiz

[Zastrow]

How does a movie with badass fight scenes, great actors, impressive visualization and a unique and great movie making style translate into Western Superiority Complex?

Stop overanaylzing the movie or turning it into something it isn't. I appreciate good and unique film-making as much as I do history, if this was a documentary it'd be bad, but its not. Its a badass action/adventure movie set in history. I love it personally, but don't try and turn it into something it isn't.

[keravnos]

300 is a faery tale inspired from a true story. Just that. Even the dwarves, elves, kataphrakt rhinos man beasts, golems what have you... all that exageration is of faery tale quality.

Why should that sound as condescending?

Now, as to the fact that western culture tries its best each generation to retell a story, well that would be the same as Rustem or Darhiush, or Kurush tales be told in Iran. Each culture defines itself by its roots, and understandably cherishes them. Is that a bad thing?

Any story needs a good villain as well as a great hero. Without a villain there is no story. In Greece we cherish Alexandros and Leonidas. In persia I believe Alexandros and Leonidas aren't well liked. It is not only natural, it is human. Persians do respect them, though, as well as we respect Kyros and Dareios.

It is probably the worst tragedy in history that Megas Alexandros didn't live longer. He planned to mary Darius's III daughter, and establish a Hellenic-Persian Co-dominium. Imagine what would happen if the strong leadership, respect to authority, financial management and order of the Persian empire could fuse with the Freedom, Aesthetics, Eagerness to learn and explore, philosophy and greek science? In a recent archaeologic symposium exploring ancient greek technology it was suggested that we could probably have reached the Moon 1000 years earlier. Yep, ancient computing machines, steam engine, steel, Ancient greeks had all that. They could actually make something Grand and Lasting like the Chinese did. Instead they were too busy killing themselves, and let Romans and Parthians enslave them.



The establishment of cities and the "transplant of populations from Asia to Europe and in the opposite direction from Europe to Asia, in order to bring the largest continent to common unity and to friendship by means of intermarriage and family ties."
This is one of the leftovers of Alexander's plans. This little phrase which proves just how good a teacher Aristotle was, how much a good student of History and psychology Alexander was, and what a tragedy was for Humanity to lose him.This is how and why USA became the great power by the way, and will remain that way...btw... :idea2: This is why certain Greek Historians feel that Americans are the true heirs of Alexander, because they followed in and built on his dream, what he himself would make had he not died. I agree. Much as it pains me as a Greek, we forgot Alexandros and the essence of what made him Great, and are just consumed with names, and making a quick buck out of what should be our greatest resource, our History. That and getting to be civil servants...:laugh4: I hope that sometime in the future we may live up to our ancestry, to Leonidas and Alexandros like we did in 1940. Maybe we will.

Honouring you ancestors can only be good, as long as that doesn't mean devaluating and dishonouring other's. That is the meaning of Europa Barbarorum. Getting to know each other's ancestors. I am proud of mine, you of yours, Persian Kataprhakt and Kambiz, and all that is good. You respect Christianity, I respect Islam, and the world gets a little better. I like to think it does, at least.

Artists, and especially those in Hollywood can be very harsh and dimunitive though. However that doesn't happen here. I pity da foo who thinks that Persians are dark skinned gold pierced savages. By exagerating, Hollywood makes sure it doesn't get sued, and actually tries to make you look the darn thing up, learn a little history.

Enough faery tales, let's go back to History for a bit.
Leonidas was a brave but desperate man. Greeks were abandoning their sovereingty and surrendering, giving "land and water" to the Persians. An army maybe not a million but certainly Many hundreds of thousands big was going to kill/destroy/rape..*enter your own verb here, much like ALL armies would do in such an era (Greeks included). Even Makedonia's king Alexandros 1st (The one you know about is the third) surrendered, became a Persian subject/satrap and was allowed to hold on to his throne. He is supposed to have performed sabbotage and other disruptions to the Persian land troops but these were minor.

The Greek fleet at Artemision was holding the Persian armada at bay, while at land the Greeks fortified themselves in the only place they could really, THERMOPYLAI. It was 300 Spartans and 700 Thespiaeeis EVERYONE forgets about that stayed back and died to allow the rest of the Greek army to depart, after Ephialtes' betrayal. To this day Ephialtes, or ΕΦΙΑΛΤΗΣ is the greek word for knightmare A holding action ensued, that became the stuff of legend. Leonidas knew he would lose, he knew he was going to die. But he sure knew that he might become a symbol, a warcry to be heard as the unified by his sacrifice Hellenes would gather around Spartans' leadership and hold the line at the Isthmus near Corinth. He was a VERY desperate man about to have all his world destroyed, and having decided to go out in a blaze of glory, he gave the struggle his heart and soul. His and those around him. That is what 300, the comic stands for. An image of that sacrifice. That is why I still am awed every single time I read it. This echo I tried to portray in the Greek voicemod I did, it is THOSE DESPERATE MEN AND STRUGGLE I wanted to honour and I am glad that most people like it. :yes:

Xerxes, to be fair, didn't actually lose. It is just that post the sea battle at Salamis *latest ancient papyrus scroll read, points that Greeks had 220 triremes, he was afraid that Greeks would land marines and destroy his line of communications/supply. That is why he left with the bulk of his army, leaving Mardonius at Plataiae, to hold the Greek pocessions, until he could return next year. He didn't have the chance to. Emboldened by the victory at sea, and
the huge morale boost of Leonidas' sacrifice 50.000 hoplites went against 300.000 Persians. They won. We Greeks still exist today. And Frank Miller got to do 300. :2thumbsup:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Best of luck getting something with Middle-Eastern heroes to sell to the public. Particularly Middle-Eastern heroes that most Americans haven't heard of. People don't go to movies to learn, and they don't go for stuff they know absolutely nothing about. People have heard of Alexander, and the Trojan War, and the 300 Spartans. They haven't heard of Parthia, or Surena. They won't be interested, so it won't sell, so it's too large of a business risk to invest in. That leaves independent films, but then you lose money for costumes/set design, actors, and special effects, so you have a harder time doing history justice.

That is exactly my point, friend. First off, ancient Iran is automatically represented as the "Middle East". The very term "Middle East" was coined during political circumstances in the early 20th century , in retrospect, to the British intervention in the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the forming of various Arab states. Islam too has contributed to this effect, and it is indeed an unfortunate fate that Iran that suffered a complete cultural disaster after the Islamic invasions has been clustered together to this term. Prior to the Islamic Revolution in 1979, this was not the case, and the Western world actually began to distinguish the impoverished Middle East with the thriving, culturally aware Iran. This sentiment peaked in 1971 when the celebration of 2500 years of monarchy in Iran was concluded with a grand military parade, a true one of a kind. This procession left an entire world in awe, and indeed, it was like travelling through time. The world saw Achaemenid armies, uniformed, and in disciplined order march to the sound of mighty bronze horns and kettle-drums. Formations of infantry, Immortals, light, as well as heavy cavalry, chariots, triremes and siege towers. Thereafter came the equestrian Parthians gaiting in cohesive formations, as light cavalry and as formations of cataphracts. Then came the Sassanids with their elaborate costumes and armour... And so forth, until the coming of the Pahlavi dynasty military march band.

This is something that can be seen in some sandals and swords epics, such as "The fall of the roman empire", where we see the parthians coming to the aid of the armenians, they too elaborately armed and armoured like heavy horsemen. These modern renditions that we see today in movies such as "Alexander" is highly political. Persians in grey tunics, dressed like tribal Arabs, camels, and even some cavalrymen out of Bessus' contingent speaking Arabic (These were supposedly the Bactrians and the Sakae heavy cavalry). Flies whirling around the heads of some of these "Persians", dead silent and generally has the appearance of a big shapeless blob (Even though the Persians strictly held by the decimal organization and even had a complicated organization pertaining to junior officers). The Alexander movie made it sound like the Persians were the ones to draw first blood on Macedon, and therefore were the "evil ones". Gee, was that why they skipped river Granicus, Issus, and the siege of Tyre? Speaking about the siege of Tyre, why was the audience denied from seeing Alexander's darker side? Additionally, what happened to Persepolis? Alexander the Arsonist. Alexander the Butcherer. No, of course not, why shatter romantic legends if people like them? Alexander the flaxen-haired? Heh. What's funnier than a golden-haired conqueror fighting against a people who speak in Arabic tongues? Black Persians *gasps*. Oh my, oh my. What a blunder. The difference between Alexander and 300 is perhaps the greatest here: "Alexander" pretentiously takes itself seriously. Rosario Dawson as Raukhshanna? And what the hell is she wearing? A burqa with meshes? *Sniffs* Is it old fart Oliver Stone around spreading his political bullshit in a movie... again? Why, let's make a movie about the good old Vikings and let a chinese man with bad pronounciation play Olaf. It almost makes me glad that Oliver Stone rejected some historical aspects, because had Ariobarzanes of Persepolis been depicted in the movie, he'd probably depicted as a demon with a whip in his hand, flogging reluctant Persians levies to trigger an ambush by the Persian Gates. "These people only fight because their king has forced them to! They are not fighting for their homes!"... The irony of an invader's audacity, eh Alexandros? ~:joker:

With "300" it's a different case because here Persia is after all the crap about 300 Spartans being so resilient, actually depicted as a superpower, with top technology (*looks at stupid arrowheads again*), great props (*looks at stupid facial hair prop again*), great beasts of war (*stares again at the rhinoceros*), and... Ironically armour. The Spartans in this movie fight almost butt naked. The Immortals are armoured with uhh... Monkey masks and breastplates. The arrow storms well, unrealistic and stupid looking, and in some shots have the stopping power of ballistic missiles... "300" is obviously not a movie meant to provide lectures on history, and if anything I'll be seeing it because it has been almost 25 years since "Conan The Barbarian". I need a manly movie. The problem with "300" is also political, in which Sparta (Yes, Sparta) represents freedom and... democracy? (No I'm genuinely asking, do the Spartans actually stand for democracy in "300"?) Uhhh, yeah... <_<

Really now, if it wasn't for the fact that "300" doesn't take itself too seriously, I'd be seriously offended if I was a Greek. I know for a fact that Greeks take great pride in this one stand against the Persians, and I know many Greeks who have expressed admiration for the Spartiates, but if it wasn't for the fact that "300" advertises itself as being just mindless ass-kickery, it would have been a caricature of a great moment of glory for the Greeks. "Alexander" is a caricature of a great historical figure and his achievements, but it took itself seriously. That is the reason why I will be seeing "300", provided that I someday can see a translation of "Carrhae" seeing cataphracts roll cigaweed and ride into the sunset to some uppity soundtrack.




Ops ,I have to go out.Will continue later.
And "The Persian Cataphract" ,I'm already studying http://www.jamejamshid.com/ ,It sounds interesting

Dear Cambyses,

Do not go to that site for personal research. I only wanted a picture of Shapur I humbling three Roman emperors in one of his bas-reliefs. For a comprehensive database on Iranian studies, I recommend CAIS-SOAS (http://www.cais-soas.com) or Encyclopaedia Iranica Online (If you know what to look for that is, but for the moment being, I recommend CAIS).

[Vorian]

Really now, if it wasn't for the fact that "300" doesn't take itself too seriously, I'd be seriously offended if I was a Greek. I know for a fact that Greeks take great pride in this one stand against the Persians, and I know many Greeks who have expressed admiration for the Spartiates, but if it wasn't for the fact that "300" advertises itself as being just mindless ass-kickery, it would have been a caricature of a great moment of glory for the Greeks.

As a Greek I have given up hope for a decent historical Hollywood movie. Still, I think it's better they show it that way. At least nobody is going to think that what appears in the screen happened that way in reality too.
(I hope:inquisitive: )

[Caratacos]

Geez, I wonder if Krusader knew this thread would spark such a lengthy debate... about all sorts of things.

Historically accurate vs. entertaining

people see movies for all sorts of reasons and everyone's going to be disappointed in some respect (thats why i tell myself a movie is going to suck before i go see it-- no disappointment). I think anyone with a smidgen of intelligence knows the goal of hollywood movies is primarily to entertain (and make money!). Those who know nothing about Thermopylae going into the movie will hopefully leave the theater and want to learn about it. To do that they will have to look at real history. In this way movies (unrealistic or not) can only serve history by sparking interest in it.

Personally, as someone interested in all the great cultures of the world, I'd love to see a movie (as suggested by The Persian Cataphract) about Parthians and Roman defeats etc. However I don't think any such movie would do justice to the history or cultures involved. I guess the lesson is "be careful what you wish for".

As for black Persians-- i sincerely hope (for whoever is involved in the casting) that this doesn't originate from some kind of "old school" thinking Good=white, Bad=black. after all Xerxes is supposed to be the "baddie" in the movie, right? I Haven't read the graphic novel so i'm not sure how (or if) Xerxes is portrayed. If he's black in the comic i guess Frank Miller is the one to talk to about it.

As for Alexander the movie. I'm biased in that i don't really like Colin Farrell (as an actor-- i'm sure he's nice enough in real life). After watching it i felt that Alexander was portrayed as moody teenager-- i sure as hell wouldn't have followed him into battle (well maybe the battle against the monkey men-- we must retain our spot as top hominid :laugh4: ).

At the end of the day i'll turn to the history books for history... but i'll watch 300 for the fight scenes (and the cata-rhino's!)

[Geoffrey S]

Xerxes and his ambassadors look rather black to me in the comic; troops definitely look nice and Persian, except for the immortals.

I'd love to see a film about Crassus leading his men to defeat at Carrhae. Just imagine: the tragic story of the man once the richest and most influential in Rome, gradually surpassed by his associates Pompey and Caesar, who is less wellsuited to the political limelight than backroom politics, and who in his quest for glory goes out of his depth and is utterly defeated. Could start with his mistakes against Spartacus, forming a nice prelude for those who know how his continued meddling in military affairs will end. Excellent drama possibilities with his push ahead despite warnings and the realisation of defeat finally hitting home with the death of his son.

One can hope. Or write a book. :idea2:

[Krusader]

Xerxes and his ambassadors look rather black to me in the comic; troops definitely look nice and Persian, except for the immortals.

I'd love to see a film about Crassus leading his men to defeat at Carrhae. Just imagine: the tragic story of the man once the richest and most influential in Rome, gradually surpassed by his associates Pompey and Caesar, who is less wellsuited to the political limelight than backroom politics, and who in his quest for glory goes out of his depth and is utterly defeated. Could start with his mistakes against Spartacus, forming a nice prelude for those who know how his continued meddling in military affairs will end. Excellent drama possibilities with his push ahead despite warnings and the realisation of defeat finally hitting home with the death of his son.

One can hope. Or write a book. :idea2:

Alfred Duggan - Winter Quarters

Only fictional book I can think off that comes close. Follows the story of two Gauls in Roman service.

[hellenes]

Im in the sad position to provide a reality check as far as the Hollywood movies are concerned:
PEOPLE BELIEVE 100% WHAT THEY SEE AS A HISTORICAL FACT!
The hilarius notion that the average american doesnt take everything as he sees it in TV or movies has no basis...people form misconceptions and false beliefs get instilled in the masses as FACTS...
After that they expect and demand these "facts" to be followed by ALL media including strategy games...*cough*RTW "EGYPTIANS"*cough*

[Geoffrey S]

Alfred Duggan - Winter Quarters

Only fictional book I can think off that comes close. Follows the story of two Gauls in Roman service.
Thanks, checked it on Amazon and it sounds interesting. I'll see if I can find it sometime!

Im in the sad position to provide a reality check as far as the Hollywood movies are concerned:
PEOPLE BELIEVE 100% WHAT THEY SEE AS A HISTORICAL FACT!
The hilarius notion that the average american doesnt take everything as he sees it in TV or movies has no basis...people form misconceptions and false beliefs get instilled in the masses as FACTS...
After that they expect and demand these "facts" to be followed by ALL media including strategy games...*cough*RTW "EGYPTIANS"*cough*
An unfounded notion playing off national stereotypes, and one I'd find frankly insulting if I were an American.

[Caratacos]

This may be a little off topic but i was thinking about Geoffrey S's idea of a film about Crassus. Another tragic tale i thought would be good to see is that of Vercingetorix and his defeat at Alesia. Then i found out that a french movie named "Druids" had been made in 2001 staring none other than (wait for it....) Christopher Lambert. Not sure how it treats history etc. but with the tagline "His people made him a leader. The empire made him a renegade. History made him a hero." i can't help but wonder which empire they mean-- as the Roman one did not yet exist. Needless to say it doesn't look good. I found a trailer here:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/trailer.html?v_id=237168

anyone out there seen it (it's AKA "Vercingetorix")?

[paullus]

Im in the sad position to provide a reality check as far as the Hollywood movies are concerned:
PEOPLE BELIEVE 100% WHAT THEY SEE AS A HISTORICAL FACT!
The hilarius notion that the average american doesnt take everything as he sees it in TV or movies has no basis...people form misconceptions and false beliefs get instilled in the masses as FACTS...
After that they expect and demand these "facts" to be followed by ALL media including strategy games...*cough*RTW "EGYPTIANS"*cough*

:laugh4:

ps--whats wrong with the egyptians?:egypt: they were in the mummy, so they were accurate right? dolt.

[Alkiviadis]

[QUOTE=keravnos] Persians do respect them, though, as well as we respect Kyros and Dareios.

And i want to I want to add that in ancient Greek Literature the Persians are not Bad.Herodotus in the book Kleio it wrote for the wonderful things that made all populations of east...We had some respect for them...As for the word Barbarian,in early years it has the meaning that the Greeks didn;t understand the language,after their achievements that change.Sometimes I try to understand why Herodotus wrote so many good things for Lydia,Persia etc..But his father was from Caria and his mother was Dorian...



. Much as it pains me as a Greek, we forgot Alexandros and the essence of what made him Great, and are just consumed with names, and making a quick buck out of what should be our greatest resource, our History. That and getting to be civil servants...:laugh4: I hope that sometime in the future we may live up to our ancestry, to Leonidas and Alexandros like we did in 1940. Maybe we will.

I agree with each your word

Honouring you ancestors can only be good, as long as that doesn't mean devaluating and dishonouring other's. That is the meaning of Europa Barbarorum. Getting to know each other's ancestors. I am proud of mine, you of yours, Persian Kataprhakt and Kambiz, and all that is good. You respect Christianity, I respect Islam, and the world gets a little better. I like to think it does, at least.

I agree with each your word

Artists, and especially those in Hollywood can be very harsh and dimunitive though. However that doesn't happen here. I pity da foo who thinks that Persians are dark skinned gold pierced savages. By exagerating, Hollywood makes sure it doesn't get sued, and actually tries to make you look the darn thing up, learn a little history.

If we see the movies Troy,Alexander we can say that Hollywood raped the history...In the Troy is all different (Achilles go inside the Troy for example),in the Alexander,the Alexander is like participates in gay parade...
For the 300 what can you say;Elephants,black ambassador,Xerxes with pearcing,and Dienekes is Stelios!!!But Stelios is Christian name and this era ia about 500 before Jesus!!!But Enough with faery tales as Keravnos said...

[Imperator]

I'm not Iranian, I'm a Westerner, but I still find it vaguely offensive. Consider the historical data we have about Spartan culture compared to Persian. Spartans were violent, brutal, backwards and often cruel- but little more than a regional mini-power. Persia was a huge empire, richer than any other nation at the time in manpower, military victories and resources. They had in a miraculously short time siezed control of all Asia (as the Greeks knew it) and the Persians were considered fearsome warriors, matches perhaps for Spartans*. Why, therefore, should the Persians be the bad guys? Because they lost? The won a lot more wars than they lost, and Thermopolyae was a tactical mistake on Xerxes' part- forcing a way through 7000 Greeks** in a narrow pass- not gonna happen. The Persians were MORE democratic and civilized (in our Western ideas) than the Spartans and the Persians were MUCH more modern than the brutal, downright Barbaric Spartans. Why the Persians are always treated like Lord of the Rings orcs I'll never know. Still people shrug and say "no big, it's not like anyone thinks that real" but that's false. Everyone thinks the Persians WERE weak, unorganized and pathetic hordes-men getting slaughtered by heroic, chiseled, clean-shaven Greeks- not quite. Those poor Persians, they must share a fate with the Gauls, kinda sad to think all those people brushed off as "barbarians" when the contrary is true.
*According to Herodotus, the Spartans were VERY unwilling to be on the flank as the persians at the battle at Platea and kept switching with the Athenians-the only people to have stopped Persians in battle- so they wouldn't need to fight them
**sorry, it wasn't JUST the spartans- there were 7000 Greeks until after the battle was lost, the Persians ready to flank the Greeks that all the greek army retreated, its job done (to delay the Persians) but the Spartans AND THE THESBIANS stayed to fight to the death to slow the Persians down a little more- it was never "just 300 Spartans". please...:wall:





sorry about that. I just hate it when people need to make history a good guys VS bad guys deal- the tragedy and beauty of history and warfare is that it is almost always good guys vs good guys- read the Illiad and you'll see what I mean- it's about heroes on both sides wiping each other out- why can't THAT be the movie? A tragedy about fellow warriors and men forced by fate to kill each other and be killed? But I guess then we wouldn't get our cataphract rhinos, naked chain-heavy Persian despots and ninja-alien-monkey-mask Persian orcs and we'd be deprived of our cheap, stereotype giggles. :shame:

[The Persian Cataphract]

You respect Christianity, I respect Islam, and the world gets a little better. I like to think it does, at least.

Friend, I agree with much of your post and I believe that Iranians and Greeks alike should (And they do nowadays) respect each other out of tradition, mainly for the sake that we shaped the world through wars, ideals, reforms, progress and peace. Ironically, over a thousand of years of bittern enmity between Greeks and Iranians, we had just begun to realize the importance of the existence in one and other as the muslims invaded our empires, and in the battle of Al-Firad when Byzantines and Sassanians stood alike on the fields to face the Bedouins, the incursions of the Medians and Cyrus The Great, the Persian Wars, the conquest of Alexander, the ousting of the Seleucids, and the Byzantine-Persian wars were for a moment forgotten. The same was done to an extent at Yarmuk, when Persian cavalrymen joined the ranks of the Byzantines. This is also where I express my disagreement with you on the quoted snippet, and as I do not know Kambiz, I can only speak for myself.

I respect Christianity, not out of obligation of religious respect, but because it was never forced on my country. You however should neither respect Islam out of obligation, nor should you by presumed necessity. I'm not a muslim, never have been, and never will be. Indeed, in a twist of irony, most of my countrymen have been forced to carry the traces of this poison that set out to not only destroy Partho-Sassanian heritage, a legacy we know so little of today, but it also sought to destroy the Roman legacy, in which the final insult was to convert the Haghia Sophia into a mosque. For it was only the caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab who said:

"If the books are blasphemous, God has protected us against the poison. If the books contain good teachings, God has given us a better guidance."

And so, the academies of Ctesiphon were ravaged. Books and scrolls alike were thrown into the waters of the Euphrates, or cast into great bonfires. This order from the "Shadow of God on Earth" did not need to be repeated, and so the academies of Jund&#238;sh&#226;p&#251;r, B&#238;sh&#226;p&#251;r, Rhag&#226;&#235;, N&#238;sh&#226;p&#251;r, &#194;barshahr, Istakhr and so many other cities in the Iranian East were subject to the same fate. The daughter of the emperor was to be a mere concubine for the rude, uncultured invaders, and the emperor had fled to the east to seek the aid of the Turks. Ferd&#244;ws&#238;, the great poet who wrote the national epic of Iran, could forgive Alexander, as I too can forgive him, but he could not forgive the muslim Arabs. Neither can I, therefore, I cannot respect this violent religion that ordains total domination on divine ground. I ask you, as an honourable Greek, to not humble yourself to Islam. Islam has given Iran nothing. Islam hasn't given Greece anything. Iran and the Iranian identity exists only in spite of Islam. Your Byzantine emperor was correct, especially during such turbulent circumstances, and the Pope was correct to quote a correct statement.

I may object with Western attempts of glorifying certain aspects of history by the influence of contemporary politics, vis-a-vis to modern politics, but Alexander is a man who has gotten much unfounded hate by Iranians, mainly by just looking at the ruins of the Persepolis, or by looking at Greek sources depicting Persians as cowardly, low and weak, however that is to look at things superficially. The conquests between Greeks and Iranians showed a common facet that belonged to both cultures, and this facet meant a lot of mutual exchange. While it is true that the Persian Wars was propelled by the Ionian Revolt and thus lead to expeditions against Eretrea and Athens, most Iranians conveniently forget that Khashay&#226;rsh&#226;h (Xerxes) sacked Athens, and ravaged the acropolis.

[Alkiviadis]

If we must speak about religion,I bielieve that will be a big conversation....
I said only two words:
Niche said:The last Christian die before 2.000 years...
And Persians and Greeks exist before Christianity and Islam...and they went them very well...
My personal opinion is that we had high level of culture,justice,science etc..so the Christianity didn't bring the enormous difference...
And the Christian Emperor Theodosius it gave the command on implementation 7.000 civilians (most of them Greek non Christians) and he
cancelled the Olympic Games as a celebrations of pagans!!!
What can you say?
As for Alexander my thought is that if he didn't have Aristotle as teacher the thinks propably it would be worst for him...He was brutal with the people that resisted...And I must tell you that he was Dorian...The Spartans (Dorians too)never fight when the opposite army fleet.
They was strange character, but I cannot say that he was hate the Iranians..
Rather he wanted to satisfies the thirst of his soldiers for pillage...
And the he encourage the weddings with the Persian women (impermissible for this era)...
Propably the Persians was not cowardly, low and weak but I think that
it drew such conclusion because Dareius did not face him..
Different minds?Maybe...
Today the leader of a nation will never go to war side by side with his soldiers...
In the era of Alexandros most of the leaders fight side by side and in the front line...
He had Athenian education, but Spartan mentality (only front,never back)...
He was ambitious and selfish for military cause,but very generous to the finance subject.He had nothing for himself and he gave all of his treasure to Macedonians before he leaves...
He was strange person my friend nondescript...forgive him...

[keravnos]

@ThePersianKataphract,

As both our Nations have been around before our religions today, it is only fair to say that both have been ravaged (somewhat) by our religions. For some scholars Hellas ended after we became Christians. We then became Greeks or Graeci, like the Romans called us. I cannot even begin to tell you how many people were slain for NOT believing Jesus Christ or how many Papyri were burnt because of Christianity.

As for Islam, I fully understand what it meant for Persia, what you write is a most accurate and emotional account. But Arabs, being impressed by the Philosophy of the Greeks in syria and Egypt, they made it their own called it Phal'sa'pha and basically saved the ancient Philosophers, Plato and Aristotle, in the same time as my ancestors Christian Greeks were dismantling Ancient temples, killing philosophers, raping women whose only crime was that they weren't Christian. The very mentioning of "Hellenas" could get you killed, called a faithless stone worshipper, your family's life forfeit.Just search "Hypatia" on wiki and you will know what I mean. :shame:

Our nations fought when they shared a common border for approx. a millenia. from 550 BC to 640 AD. It wasn't only war. There was peace, understanding, mutual respect even. Both nations came close to winning, none ever did. Until Arabs came turbocharged by their new religion, and finding both empires dwindled after a century of constant war, they burnt both to the ground, occypying 2/3 of Byzantium, and all of Persia. I always wanted to ask a non muslim Iranian how he felt about it all. Your description was very impressive.

I don't remember the name of a Sassanid Persian General who cried when fighting converted to Islam Persians..."Where are those damned Arabs? Send me Arabs to fight, not my misled brethren?" Can't remember right now.

Anyhow, the era this mod takes place in is about one of the most interesting times our people ever had, and I am NOT afraid to say that Hellenistic era is my favorite. Your people's Pahlava rise to powers is also one of the tales that DESERVES TO BE TOLD in all its glory. I sure hope that the Pahlava can be shown in all their splendor in EB.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Kerevanos & ThePersianCataphract,

Although this discussion is totally off the topic (a nod to postpone the ire of the mods), I must point out that the destruction, upheaval, and cultural/social/religious revolutions created by the legitimization of Christianity in the Eastern Roman Empire were much more gradual than the sudden imposition of sharia upon the Persians by Muslim Caliphs. Many Eastern Emperors were very moderate in their dealings with paganism, some, such as Julian, rejected Christianity altogether. Also, much of the oppression done by Eastern Emperors against pagans was often driven by political motivation than by the desire to "save souls". Indeed, the pagan emperors of the tumultuous third century, leading up to and including Diocletian, had much harsher policies, and tried to stamp out Christianity much more violently than Christian emperors sought to do. Most Eastern Emperors sought to replace paganism with Christianity, and through synods and councils, dictated religious and theological dogma in order to secure their positions.

In other words, the imposition of Christianity upon the Eastern Roman Empire was largely an internal revolution generated, in part, by the co-opting of the "universalist" and "monolithic" religion (building upon Augustus' religious reforms hundreds of years early) of Christianity, as well as being a reaction to the century-and-a-half of hardline persecution beginning during the third century. In many ways, it was only slightly more violent than many of the tumultuous challenges to mainstream conservative American culture that have been taking place for the past forty years. Christianity was a radical new religion that enforced new rules (similar to "political correctness", for example), as well as demanding freedom from polytheism (much like many atheists demand freedom from religion in America today).

The Islamic domination of Iran was not nearly so gradual and politically motivated, and it was not internal, either. The Iranian culture, society, and religion was almost completely eradicated altogether. Indeed, many Mid-Eastern cultures were destroyed and largely replaced by generic "Arab" culture.

As for Greeks no longer being Greeks, I've seen photographs of an old Orthodox Greek cathedral to some healer saint (I forget the name) in Greece, and was struck by how similar the offerings to this saint were to the sort you would find in Temples of Asklepios. Yes, much was destroyed by the advent of Christianity in the Eastern Empire, but much was co-opted as well. Islam did not co-opt.

There are vast differences between the two groups, eras, and events. In addition, Christ never advocated the slaughter of unbelievers, whereas Mohammed did. It wouldn't be difficult to make an argument that the Eastern Roman Emperors were bad Christians, while the Caliphs that destroyed Persian culture were being good Muslims.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Oh, by the way...


I don't remember the name of a Sassanid Persian General who cried when fighting converted to Islam Persians..."Where are those damned Arabs? Send me Arabs to fight, not my misled brethren?" Can't remember right now.
It wasn't Shahr Baraz, was it? It sounds an awful lot like something he might have said, but I'm not sure if he was still alive by that point.

[kambiz]

Hey All;
Am I too late ,It seems the thread already dead~:confused:
Anyway ,Movies like this are good meal for the Iran's regime propaganda machine.They knowwell how to use media to convince the people accept their own ideas.There are TV programmes which thier work are to analysis Hollywood movies(Western movies in general)for their own use and belive me they do it very well.I anticipate ,1-2 months after the movie released ,They will show it in TV channels and I suppose this time there is no need to analysis any more ,the movie is annoying enough .After that ,They will show iranians that "The westerners do not respect your history" (Iranians are so proud of their history) and "The westerners do consider you as animals".I think there's no need to explain any more.
Important note : One thing that you should note is that at least half of the iranians cannot understand that there's freedom in chosing subjects for the movies(Or other art works) in the west because in iran each movie will be reviewed by the regime before the public show.
I remember a few weeks ago was talking with one of my friends which saw the 300's trailer on the net.He was so annoying about that ,but I hardly could convince him that Americans will not tolerate such a movies and will declare their opposition against it.
Another question is ,"Why now?". The situation between East and west(Iran and USA in particular) at least in governmental level is not good and it is out our-we people- control.This time is the worst time for making movies like "300".You could make it 10 years earlier or later ,but now anyway.This is a matter makes me suspicious.


Friend, I agree with much of your post and I believe that Iranians and Greeks alike should (And they do nowadays) respect each other out of tradition, mainly for the sake that we shaped the world through wars, ideals, reforms, progress and peace. Ironically, over a thousand of years of bittern enmity between Greeks and Iranians, we had just begun to realize the importance of the existence in one and other as the muslims invaded our empires, and in the battle of Al-Firad when Byzantines and Sassanians stood alike on the fields to face the Bedouins, the incursions of the Medians and Cyrus The Great, the Persian Wars, the conquest of Alexander, the ousting of the Seleucids, and the Byzantine-Persian wars were for a moment forgotten. The same was done to an extent at Yarmuk, when Persian cavalrymen joined the ranks of the Byzantines. This is also where I express my disagreement with you on the quoted snippet, and as I do not know Kambiz, I can only speak for myself.I'm quite agree with you mate.Although I can't forgive Alexandros (Parsi = Eskandar) because he burnt down Persepolis ,But muslim arab invaders are even more unforgivable becuase they ruined EVERYTHING.
I respect Christianity, not out of obligation of religious respect, but because it was never forced on my country. You however should neither respect Islam out of obligation, nor should you by presumed necessity.I live in Iran-Qom ,But I do not believe to any religion ,but I respect them all expect Islam.You are right "Savar'e parsi" ,Islam has forced us.Its not ours.It is the worst religion ever appeared in the world.

I'm not a muslim, never have been, and never will be. Indeed, in a twist of irony, most of my countrymen have been forced to carry the traces of this poison that set out to not only destroy Partho-Sassanian heritage, a legacy we know so little of today, but it also sought to destroy the Roman legacy, in which the final insult was to convert the Haghia Sophia into a mosque. For it was only the caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab who said:

"If the books are blasphemous, God has protected us against the poison. If the books contain good teachings, God has given us a better guidance."

And so, the academies of Ctesiphon were ravaged. Books and scrolls alike were thrown into the waters of the Euphrates, or cast into great bonfires. This order from the "Shadow of God on Earth" did not need to be repeated, and so the academies of Jundîshâpûr, Bîshâpûr, Rhagâë, Nîshâpûr, Âbarshahr, Istakhr and so many other cities in the Iranian East were subject to the same fate. The daughter of the emperor was to be a mere concubine for the rude, uncultured invaders, and the emperor had fled to the east to seek the aid of the Turks. Ferdôwsî, the great poet who wrote the national epic of Iran, could forgive Alexander, as I too can forgive him, but he could not forgive the muslim Arabs. Neither can I, therefore, I cannot respect this violent religion that ordains total domination on divine ground. I ask you, as an honourable Greek, to not humble yourself to Islam. Islam has given Iran nothing. Islam hasn't given Greece anything. Iran and the Iranian identity exists only in spite of Islam. Your Byzantine emperor was correct, especially during such turbulent circumstances, and the Pope was correct to quote a correct statement.A big tragedy.But the worst part of this is many of our people consider themselves as muslim while their fathers were slaughtered by the messengers of this religion. I suppose ,Muhhamed was the only prophet expanded his beliefs by the power of sword.
@The Persian Cataphract
Thank you so mutch for the link.It was so helpful to me~:)

-Kambiz

[GodEmperorLeto]

I remember a few weeks ago was talking with one of my friends which saw the 300's trailer on the net.He was so annoying about that ,but I hardly could convince him that Americans will not tolerate such a movies and will declare their opposition against it.
Another question is ,"Why now?". The situation between East and west(Iran and USA in particular) at least in governmental level is not good and it is out our-we people- control.This time is the worst time for making movies like "300".You could make it 10 years earlier or later ,but now anyway.This is a matter makes me suspicious.

It's being made not because of politics. When Frank Miller wrote the comic, it was around 1998-9. In other words, before Bush, and before the whole Iran-goes-nuclear debacle. It's being made into a movie because Sin City was so successful, and because 300 was a very popular short series. Americans probably don't consider this an East-vs.-West sort of movie (unless you've read a lot of Victor Davis Hanson, that is), but more of a "free vs. oppression" flick, or a rip-roaring good slaughterfest about blood, guts, and glory (i.e. the Conan: the Barbarian or The 13th Warrior sort of movie). Most Americans don't even consider Iran to be Persia anymore. We erroneously think of it as an Arab country.

Nevertheless, because Arab and Muslim are often synonymous, and Iran is a very Muslim country, I guess that last piece isn't that far-off an assessment.

However, I must also point out that, as previously stated, Iran is not very Persian anymore because of Islam. The Muslims eradicated hundreds of years of Persian history because it was written before Mohammed. Anything that happened before him happened in "the time of darkness". So, in that sense, this movie has nothing to do with the Muslim Iranians, because they've done everything they can to destroy their own memory of that time.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Keravnos,


As both our Nations have been around before our religions today, it is only fair to say that both have been ravaged (somewhat) by our religions. For some scholars Hellas ended after we became Christians. We then became Greeks or Graeci, like the Romans called us. I cannot even begin to tell you how many people were slain for NOT believing Jesus Christ or how many Papyri were burnt because of Christianity.

Indeed, I have heard much about the cultural calamity that the Hellenic culture endured during the period when the Greeks began to convert to Christianity. However, in retrospect it was adopted by the Greeks, and the transition was after all quite gradual, somewhat comparable to the transition of Nestorianism in Sassanian Iran and in the Dashtê Meisân (Mesenê). The fact that the Hellenes were brutally persecuted by the Christians is rather common knowledge, but this is the natural part of most religions once their adherents have become a local majority. Scrolls and parchments alike were destroyed, but this rather marks a new chapter in Greek history, whether for the good or for the bad. I can definitely see your point, and while I do get the impression of a comparing between apples and oranges, I am sure this was not in your intention. I have met many Greeks who passionately dismisses Christianity with the colourful word of "parasite".


As for Islam, I fully understand what it meant for Persia, what you write is a most accurate and emotional account. But Arabs, being impressed by the Philosophy of the Greeks in syria and Egypt, they made it their own called it Phal'sa'pha and basically saved the ancient Philosophers, Plato and Aristotle, in the same time as my ancestors Christian Greeks were dismantling Ancient temples, killing philosophers, raping women whose only crime was that they weren't Christian. The very mentioning of "Hellenas" could get you killed, called a faithless stone worshipper, your family's life forfeit.Just search "Hypatia" on wiki and you will know what I mean.

Friend, I already know all about Hypatia and the widespread persecution of the "Hellenes" that eventually lead to the demise of Hellenism. I've read many arguments that do a lot to strengthen that Graeco-Roman culture, at its height was essentially killed once Christianity was adopted. Yet I think the west owes a great deal to the Byzantines for halting Islamic advances in Europe. Now, I do not mean to accord Byzantine valour and bravery to Christianity, because while some factors may be relevant to religion, it would be an absurd argument, but the Greeks put up a much stiffer resistance to Islam than what we Iranians ever could dream of, and the problem is that the Byzantines never got the chance that the Sassanids got to utterly destroy Islam at such an early stage, and had I been a Greek, regardless of Christianity, I would have been proud of my ancestors. As an Iranian, I am both proud of the achievements of my ancestors, but also ashamed. Not because of these stupid epithets that "Persians" left behind themselves after the Persian Wars or the incursions of Alexandros, but rather because we who contended on the level of the Romans were beaten by mere muslims. Foremostly I am ashamed of the fact that we showed these rude invaders the slightest glimpse of military courtesy when Spâhbâd Vahman, victorious after his brilliant battle of Al-Jisr (The bridge) was not allowed to cross the Tigris to truly pursue the muslims and raze their cities. I think it was Julius Caesar who coined to the pro-verb on the pitfalls of leniency. Pardon one offence, and you will have allowed so many other upcoming offences.

Rustam was naïve to have shown pity for the invaders. The Sassanians used to send a surplus of grains and dates because they felt sorry for the "poor Arabs who had nothing but lizards to eat". Even at the eve of battle, attempts were made to bribe them off with foodstuffs. Before Al-Qadisiyya, Persian courtesy reached an apex. They offered all the land up to the Tigris to the muslims. But the muslims did not come for riches or for land. They came to spread their creed, and each and everytime they uttered their cursed daw'at, naming their damned three conditions, it has been proven time to time that they came with only a goal: To expand Islam, and to minimize the "House of War". What is even worse is what Iranian children are being taught today. Iran's wealth in oil-driven dollars is being stolen by hundreds of millions by clerics and the only prolific "charity" is directed towards "anti-zionist" projects and for funding terrorists, and the rearing of "Palestinians". The fate of irony isn't it? Cyrus The Great liberates 40,000 Jews from Babylonian captivity, and ever since, Judeo-Iranian relations have only flourished since Parthian and Sassanian times. Until recently, when an orangutan puppet invited all the world's racists, nazists, revisionists and fascists to "discuss the Holocaust" in an "attempt to break a cultural taboo", when it all essentially is a stupid, childish answer to the Mohammed caricatures. The fact that my country and my pathetic countrymen joined the rest of the world's rude muslims in burning embassies, murdering innocents and vandalizing private property in the answer of some ink only adds to my embarassment. Prior to that, Zoroastrians were called "dirty animals" by a high-positioned cleric, and when the Zoroastrian representative objected, he was arrested on the basis of "slander". Mandâeans in Iran do not even have the luxury of being represented in the "majlis". The fate and irony. Two prolific bed-fellows.


I don't remember the name of a Sassanid Persian General who cried when fighting converted to Islam Persians..."Where are those damned Arabs? Send me Arabs to fight, not my misled brethren?" Can't remember right now.

It sounds like something from the Shâhnâmê, and in that case it would be Spâhbâd Rustam Farrôkhzâd or one of his lieutenants, most probably Vahman, though I have not heard this particular quote. Shahrbarâz is excluded by the fact that he died 630 CE, to only be succeeded by queen Pûrândukht. Muslims incursions began between 634-636 CE, nominally starting with the battle of Kaskar or Kazima (Battle of the chains). Or possibly even earlier, the muslim invasion of Yemen when Mohammed still was alive, as Yemen was a vassal under Persian overlordship. Rustam was an energetic character, but his mistakes cost us Iranians our identity. He cannot be blamed however, for how could he have known?


Anyhow, the era this mod takes place in is about one of the most interesting times our people ever had, and I am NOT afraid to say that Hellenistic era is my favorite. Your people's Pahlava rise to powers is also one of the tales that DESERVES TO BE TOLD in all its glory. I sure hope that the Pahlava can be shown in all their splendor in EB.

Well said, friend. We have no reason to be ashamed when we proudly proclaim the achievements of our ancestors. After all, history is not simply a thing of the past. After all, the dead cannot read. While Parthia is a largely forgotten superpower, either dismissed by ignorance as a "Philhellene Iranian power" or by Iranians as "nomads", also on the ground of ignorance, I have stressed that the Parthians, while perhaps not so great as the Sassanians or the Achaemenians in the total geographic extent, have not achieved any less. They represent to me a resurgent Achaemenid empire, who not only brought back the Iranians to the worldy political scene dominated by Hellenes and the Romans, but also laid the foundation of a legacy that would last for nearly a thousand years. Thanks to the fact that the EB is quite neutral in not showcasing either culture as "superior" (As that is rather left to the eye of the beholder), yet provides the essential historical realism to bring the finest in each culture, I think the Easterners will get finest coverage provided thus far.
---

GodEmperorLeto,

You and I seem to share many principles. You are very sharpsighted. I agree with virtually anything written by you in this thread. Another qualm of mine is the so called "Islamic achievements" in science, and the bother especially pops up when a muslim apologist touts around with scientifical achievements on the behalf of Islam. Avicenna, Averroes... As if the Qur'an was some book of science (Oh the audacity, the "Quran'ic science" would make anyone with self-respect laugh). It's like claiming that Galileo is a showcase of "Christian science". Clownshoes, all of them.

For one, I do too get the impression that "300" is mainly a macho movie in the same vein as "Conan The Barbarian". I'll cross my fingers to that.

---

Kambiz,


I live in Iran-Qom

Qom? If America ever intended to have a goal to nuke Iran, you live in the hottest targets of them all. You virtually live in a city that literally manufactures clerics on a threadmill, and yet you also express criticism on Islam, while surfing through an Iranian ISP. For your own well-being I hope you are surfing through a proxyserver.

[Zastrow]

This movie is about badass fight scenes and incredible imagery and movie-making, not a commentary on east versus west or Iranian culture versus Greek culture. Its based off a graphic novel, its not based off a history book or Steven Pressfield's novel. Steve Miller wasn't trying to make some point about Eastern versus Western culture wars, he wanted to tell a story and have brilliant artwork to go with it. So please stop the giant fest over whether it insults Iranian national pride or not.

[The Persian Cataphract]

And you have not already stated this, Zastrow? In case you did not notice the discussion has rather turned into a discourse on general culture, and looking at it, it looks like it is rather independent from the movie itself. There is reason to even suspect political innuendo from Frank Miller's comic, however that does not pertain to the discussion about the religious impact on the either cultures. If Frank Miller did not intend his comic to be a big cultural debacle, he should have given his idea a second thought before bringing in Persia and Greece, and the themes of freedom, and democracy. Now, luckily, the movie seems to be all about the action, and for that I am glad. However, with earlier output from Hollywood taken into account, Iranians have all the reason in the world to be on the alert.

[spirit_of_rob]

Steve Miller wasn't trying to make some point about Eastern versus Western culture wars,.

Whose Steve Miller? :dizzy2:

[Sarcasm]

Hehe...It's Frank Miller, Zastrow.

[Zastrow]

Hehe...It's Frank Miller, Zastrow.

Yes, error on my part.


And you have not already stated this, Zastrow? In case you did not notice the discussion has rather turned into a discourse on general culture, and looking at it, it looks like it is rather independent from the movie itself. There is reason to even suspect political innuendo from Frank Miller's comic, however that does not pertain to the discussion about the religious impact on the either cultures. If Frank Miller did not intend his comic to be a big cultural debacle, he should have given his idea a second thought before bringing in Persia and Greece, and the themes of freedom, and democracy. Now, luckily, the movie seems to be all about the action, and for that I am glad. However, with earlier output from Hollywood taken into account, Iranians have all the reason in the world to be on the alert.

Yes I have, but I still think its ridiculous getting at each other's throats over it. I know of Iranian national pride and I personally possess much interest in Persian/Iranian history, especially the Sassanid and Safavid periods. The West is biased towards the East, but the East is also biased to the West. I'd hardly blame the ability to biasness and ignorance to just one party, we're all humans who when he fail to understand one another rely on generalizations and hatred. Hence one of the reasons I love history and cultural studies so much, to better understand those things is to better understand the world around you and eventually improve it. Yet I don't think the movie is a good example to go raving around Western bias, its a movie dedicated to testerone, not history. I for one love it, and infact am glad Iranians for once will be protrayed as badasses and warriors of tenacity and skill instead of effiminate weaklings. I always thought the Persian Armies of Xerxes were great armies in their own right just not suited for the style of warfare, it's like saying British cavalry sucked when it charged German machineguns at Mons. Hardly the case.

Also, Alexander the Great is overrated by a huge stretch. Just thought I'd throw that in.

[kambiz]

Hello Comrades;
@GodEmperorLeto
Many Iranians do not know mutch about Thermopylae and don't know who leonid was? and they don't know who "Frank miller" is as well.read the first part of my previous post again .I said Iran's regime will use movies like "300" to reach its own intends.How? by showing the movie (Sometimes just the chosen scenes) and analysis them ,and not to telling the people the truth.

Also Imo you and your American friends don't know anything about Iran.If you call an iranian Arab ,He/she would be annoyed.Majority of iranians are muslim ,but majority of mexicans and british are christian ,Can we say Mexicans are originally saxon? Iran has major diffrences with arabic nations ,but you only see the minor similarities.

@The Persian Cataphract
Hehe ,don't worry my friend ,the situation is not that bad.It seems you don't live in iran ,Where do you live? and ,Do you know "Finglish"?If you do ,then it is easier for me to talk to you in "Finglish".

Regard
-Kambiz

[GodEmperorLeto]

Whose Steve Miller? :dizzy2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_Band

Zastrow, as for Alexander the Great, he'd have been nothing if it wasn't for the army that he led. Same goes for many conquerors, though. And only Alexander the Great could have, or even would have, led them to the Indus.

And I don't care what anybody says, I am fired up to see this movie.

[Zastrow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Miller_Band

Zastrow, as for Alexander the Great, he'd have been nothing if it wasn't for the army that he led. Same goes for many conquerors, though. And only Alexander the Great could have, or even would have, led them to the Indus.

And I don't care what anybody says, I am fired up to see this movie.

Officers make or break armies, Roman legions preformed poorly when poorly lead and same goes for any army regardless of its quality. The higher the quality, the better the army can preform with a poor leader, but the principle is still the same. Although I don't see how your point makes Alexander seem better or worse, as for Alexander being the only man who could or even would have led them to the Indus, you're right partially. Alexander was madly ambitious and arrogant, but I'd hardly call him the only man to push his army to the limits in history.

[BigTex]

Nothing like a story about 900 men holding off an army of hundreds of thousands. There's few strories as epic of thermopoly, there was a good reason it was the first battlefield to be memorialised. 900 men stood against all odds, defied to their last the greatest empire that stood.

Even if it isnt historically accurate a movie about the most epic battle of the bronze age is bound to be good.

[Geoffrey S]

Officers make or break armies, Roman legions preformed poorly when poorly lead and same goes for any army regardless of its quality. The higher the quality, the better the army can preform with a poor leader, but the principle is still the same. Although I don't see how your point makes Alexander seem better or worse, as for Alexander being the only man who could or even would have led them to the Indus, you're right partially. Alexander was madly ambitious and arrogant, but I'd hardly call him the only man to push his army to the limits in history.
I agree. Great generals need to be viewed on their own merits and faults, and the context in which their achievements took place. Alexander was Great and conquered Asia Minor; Frederick was Great yet stayed in a relatively small area in Northern Europe. Both were undeniably great generals and drove their men to the limit, and did the best they could given the situation and what they had to work with. The absolute achievements don't add to or subtract from that.

[Watchman]

Even if it isnt historically accurate a movie about the most epic battle of the bronze age is bound to be good.I'm pretty sure it was well into Iron Age you know (the weapons were iron, armour still bronze in up-to-date regions). Late Bronze Age already ended by the first half of the 1st millenium BC.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

What is the official switch over from Bronze Age to Iron Age? The beginning/end of the Greek Dark Age? Or would you just classify it as the time any particular group started using iron?

[Zastrow]

To my knowledge didn't the Assyrians usher in the Iron Age? Usually the "Ages" with metal deal with Fertile Crescent, as the birthing place of civilization and the transition that took place. I've hear dof the Copper Age, Bronze and then Iron Ages at least all refered to Mesopotamia/Egypt.

[BigTex]

I'm pretty sure it was well into Iron Age you know (the weapons were iron, armour still bronze in up-to-date regions). Late Bronze Age already ended by the first half of the 1st millenium BC.

Happened in 480 BC. At the very begining of the iron age.

[Watchman]

"Very beginning" my foot. Iron weaponry started proliferating not long after the cusp of the millenium; most references I've seen consider the "age change" in the Middle East to have been a reality by roughly 800 BC. Since it gave its owners a bit of an edge over neighbours with bronze weapons there were active efforts to restrict the spread of the related know-how; for example the skill was apparently a bit of a "state secret" for the Hittites (whose empire collapsed already in 1200-1100s BC), low-key as their production now was, and the Biblical Philistines apparently both possessed iron weaponry (Goliath is apparently referred to as having such) and tried to keep a tight lid on them. The Central European Hallstatt culture (ca. 800-400 BC) manufactured swords from both bronze and iron, the latter apparently being monopolized by their own warrior aristocracy.

Eastern Mediterranean in 480 BC would have been long since gone from Late Bronze to Iron Age in about all relevant matters.

[MiniMe]

Not to mention the fact that Spartans were quite an ugly apartheid community of slave owners, exploiting native population of their lands (Helots) and killing their own kids on regular basis.



1. the Spartans were not the only Greeks present at the battle. there were 700 thespians as well.
…
3. casualties of the battle range for the Greeks at all 1000 killed to the last man to that of the Persian sustained casualties which were estimates of 20,000 - 50,000…

1000 against 20,000 – 50,000?

Let’s do some meat math.

Does anybody has any idea, how hard it is to achieve a successful decisive strike and chop/cut enemy to pieces? Butcher’s job is hard job. And in this case you’re not dealing with a defenseless chained pig, btw. You are against people with shields and some armour. And they are striking back. That’s why it requires multiple attempts and energy. Usually survivors of close engagement are extremely exhausted, even in our days.

After you’ve killed your first target, their corpse is not disappearing in the air. No, here it is, right in front of you. And if you are defending the position, you can’t retreat, you can’t move yourself someplace else. So the more you kill, the more you’re surrounded by corpses. That means you can’t maneuver and that’s very bad. Even if you really are a good soldier in good health, you won’t be able to show it.

So what Herodotus’s is actually saying, is that:
1. every Greek soldier successfully did about 20-50 decisive strikes;
2. while he was doing his last strikes, he was completely surrounded by tons of enemy flesh.

These Spartans, they were some kind of cave trolls or what?

I’m very sorry, but I don’t believe this fantasy story at all. Herodotus was a bit overpatriotic, I'm afraid.
Anyway, I’m still going to enjoy the movie much same way I enjoyed LOTR =)

[Vorian]

Ehmm.....actually all the Greeks had sent army in thermopylae. They were about 5,000 men. After the Persians found the other path, the Greeks were informed about it and Leonidas ordered them to leave. The Spartans remained cause their country hadn't ordered them to move. The Thespians refused to leave and fought alongside the Spartans. So the 20,000 dead tally is quite accurate since it was 5,000 men heavily armored fighting men with wooden shields and short spears.

[Watchman]

Even if it was for three days however, I'm pretty sure you only get those kinds of casualty figures in pursuit. And that with cavalry or similar fast troops. Even if they're unskilled and poorly equipped, people who're fighting back and defending themselves still take time and effort to kill.

Ancient armies always suffered their worst casualties (not counting missile fire here) after the psychological breaking point was reached and men turned tail to flee. And if the ones running away were less encumbered by war gear than their pursuers the latter could only strike the routers down at will at the very moments the formation began to fragment but was still in contact - the normally slight casualties of straight hoplite clashes come from this same cause.

While it is possible routing Persian units could get trapped against reserves waiting their turn to engage I frankly doubt it. Men running for their lives tend to be opened passages in the ranks, if only to keep them from trying to fight their way through in their blind panic - and in any case close pursuit for any distance is specifically something the Greek hoplites could not afford to do. Had they left their easily defended bottleneck, nevermind as the pell-mell mob the most disciplined and drilled infantry degenerates into during the slaughter of close pursuit, they'd specifically have thrown away most of their advantages and handed on a silver platter the Persians ample opportunity to swamp them. The hoplites' survival against the numbers after all depended on denying the Persians the ground to flank them, and maintaining an impenetrable shieldwall the enemy couldn't swarm into.

The Persians weren't idiots after all. While their massed infantry levies may have left something to be desired in regards to fighting qualities and motivation, they had their share of well-equipped and trained professionals as well as about the best organized military machinery of the age.

[keravnos]

People will always point out to "real" ways in which this or that was done.

So far as Thermopylae were concerned a few answers...

Persian corpses were dumped to the nearby sea in between Persian attacks...
About 7.000 was the size of a Greek army prior to leaving 300+700 thespieis in Thermopylae. They stayed there to delay the Persians, and allowing the rest of the army to escape, NOT because they didn't have orders, they HAD THEIR KING WITH THEM, for crying out loud...:dizzy2:

Anyone can doubt those 300, but one little truth about them remains...

This happened almost 2500 years ago. Yet we still talk about it, debate it, doubt it and even some treat like it never happened, like it was a bad script or something...

In about 2500 years from now, long after me, you, EB, basically all things we know and understand are gone, kids will still grow up daydreaming about defending Thermopylae, if western civ survives, no matter if it clings on to its roman/greek roots. Because even if it denies them (as happened in Middle ages) it will certainly return. And THAT is the power of Thermopylae a place where few hundred stood to Many hundred thousand.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well said, keravnos.

[MiniMe]

Once again: I'm pretty sure, that the movie would be great.
I'm not so sure, however, that we'll see many slaves, owned by these "freedomefighters".
And that's exactly the point: In about 2500 years from now, long after me, you, EB, basically all things we know and understand are gone, kids will still grow up daydreaming about defending Thermopylae, having no idea, that the defenders were defending in fact not someone's abstract freedom, but their damn ugly way of life. Way of wealthy slave-owners.

[Vorian]

Keravnos, I thought that the king didn't have much power in Sparta. Of course the Spartans remained there to delay the Persians, but I have read in many documents that it was the law in Sparta not to withdraw unless you have orders from the city and the city was ruled by the "Eforoi" not the two kings.

[Watchman]

Didn't that bit about not retreating cause some trouble during the maneuvering phase of Platea as well ?

[Geoffrey S]

Supposedly, yes. Because a number of Spartans refused to retreat when the decision was taken to relocate due to persistent Persian attacks they left the original encampment at a later time than the rest of the army; this allowed Mardonius to catch up with the Spartan detachment whilst they were still seperated from the rest of the Greeks on the next day, creating a potentially risky situation.

[keravnos]

Keravnos, I thought that the king didn't have much power in Sparta. Of course the Spartans remained there to delay the Persians, but I have read in many documents that it was the law in Sparta not to withdraw unless you have orders from the city and the city was ruled by the "Eforoi" not the two kings.

The twin kings of Sparta might not have had much power in Sparta, but outside of it, they assumed command of the armed forces they were given. Both on strategic and tactical level. Given the constraints of the time, to have to answer for every decision to the Ephoroi would basically neuter Sparta as a fighting force.

[Vorian]

Well, it's logical the way you put it. :idea2: