When America thought terrorism was cool

[Banquo's Ghost]

Provocative title, I know, but my tangential thread titles get pilloried so I thought I'd try DD's Guide to Getting Responses. :grin:

The BBC's website has an 'On This Day' retro news item (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/22/newsid_2528000/2528223.stm) and today's struck me as worth reflection.

At the time, the Deal bombing was seen as a major atrocity, yet hardly anything was done by the US Government to curb financial and political support to the IRA, before or after. National interest groups prevailed, and many people argued that the republican's campaign was justified - they were often referred to as freedom fighters etc. No Guantanamo Bays set up for the Paddys (unless you count Cape Cod :wink:).

It's worth reflecting on why this was, why we shouldn't always throw stones out of our glasshouses, how the world turns - and how the problem of Irish terrorism was finally brought to a peace - uneasy, imperfect, but peace.


1989: Ten dead in Kent barracks bomb
A devastating explosion at an army barracks in Kent has killed 10 young soldiers.

The republican group IRA has said it planted the bomb which blew apart the recreation centre at the Royal Marine School of Music in Deal.

Twenty-two men were also injured in the blast just before 0830 GMT - eight seriously - and two are still missing, feared buried under the rubble. Most of the victims were teenagers.

Opposition MPs have expressed concern over the level of security at the base, which was partly guarded by a private security firm.

The device, planted in the recreation centre changing room, destroyed all three floors of the building and severely damaged dozens of nearby houses.

The blast was powerful enough to be clearly heard in the centre of Deal two miles (3.2 km) away.

"It was frightening - it was one of the loudest explosions I've ever heard," said one woman who lives close to the barracks.

Rescuers and other marines from the music school attempted to clear away the rubble of the building with their bare hands in the search for survivors before heavy lifting equipment arrived.

Kent ambulance workers, who were on strike at the time, voluntarily abandoned their industrial action to ferry the casualties to hospitals in Deal and Canterbury.

British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher - who was told of the attack during a flight from Tokyo to Moscow - said she was "shocked and extremely sad".

The opposition leader, Neil Kinnock, condemned the murder of the unarmed bandsmen as an "awful atrocity".

"Even the people who say they support what the IRA calls its cause must be sickened by the way in which such death and injury is mercilessly inflicted," he said.

[macsen rufus]

Hmmm, no-one's biting :inquisitive:

There's gotta be at least one closet NORAIDer out there, or is it America's New Orwellianism that is keeping everyone silent?

"America is at war with terror; America has always been at war with terror".

[yesdachi]

I may be a bit ignorant of the topic but where is the “American thinking it is cool” part?

[ezrider]

Could be a reference to the fact that the IRA got most of their funding from Irish American groups in the States, and no one tried to stop them.
There was even a film made about an IRA man(Brad Pitt) who went to the States to buy weapons[?] but was stopped by Harrison Ford. Basically, it put the struggle in a very romantic context and possibly made it cool.

Whats your reasoning Banquo??


EDIT: there's no way I'D take the bait on this one. to much history

[yesdachi]

There was even a film made about an IRA man(Brad Pitt) who went to the States to buy weapons[?] but was stopped by Harrison Ford. Basically, it put the struggle in a very romantic context and possibly made it cool.
I knew Han Solo could beat Achilles!

[ezrider]

I knew Han Solo could beat Achilles!



Pitt had the worst northern accent ever. It was a terrible movie, a Tom Clancy story - "the devils own" it was called

[Ronin]

Pitt had the worst northern accent ever. It was a terrible movie, a Tom Clancy story - "the devils own" it was called


Tom Clancy had nothing to do with that piece of crap movie.

You´re thinking of "Patriot Games".....and the IRA didn´t come looking too good out of that one.

[InsaneApache]

Well you see BG the attack was against the evil Brits who forcibly occupied the isle of Ireland. Then they went on a killing spree. Those they didn't murder they starved ala potato famine, so it was entirely justified. After all the USA was founded by removing the evil Brits, you know as shown in films such as Revolution and The Patriot, so I suppose we had it coming.

Little facts like the majority of the population of Northern Ireland insisting on remaining in the Union were mere window dressing.

Ok, i'll stop angling now. :sweatdrop:

It has been my opinion that the vast majority of the Noraid supporters just really had no idea about the actuality of the situation. They just swallowed the evil Brits propaganda espoused by the PIRA without bothering to find out the true situation in Ulster. As we are witnessing today the average 'Joe' has only the vaguest idea of what the rest of the world is like. This all changed after 11/9/01, this was a wake up to the US. After this date the PIRA were backed into a corner, pressure was placed on Adams and his henchmen to stop behaving like killers, and crucially the funds the PIRA needed were curtailed. It's just a shame that past US governments didn't stop the flow of cash to the murdering bastards 30 years ago. I lost a good friend in Ulster.

Carpe Diem.

[Redleg]

Well I for one have always thought the IRA and the UDF were a bunch of murdering thugs.

[Justiciar]

Well I for one have always thought the IRA and the UDF were a bunch of murdering thugs.
Hear, hear.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Americans of Irish birth or descent provided a lot of financial (and sometimes other) support to Irish nationalists over the years 1847-1987ish. That some of us continued to support the terrorist efforts of the PIRA is shameful. That struggle was NOT a continuation of the struggle that begat the Republic.

[Crazed Rabbit]

For clarification; when insurgents in Iraq attack a solely US military target, they can be called terrorists?*

Crazed Rabbit
*not to be confused with support for the PIRA.

[Pannonian]

For clarification; when insurgents in Iraq attack a solely US military target, they can be called terrorists?*

Crazed Rabbit
*not to be confused with support for the PIRA.
PIRA were known to attack anyone in a uniform, including ambushing members of military bands. Do they count as military?

[InsaneApache]

They killed women and kids as well. A lot of kids.

[Tribesman]

This all changed after 11/9/01, this was a wake up to the US. After this date the PIRA were backed into a corner, pressure was placed on Adams and his henchmen to stop behaving like killers, and crucially the funds the PIRA needed were curtailed.
Wrong date Apache , funding was drying up after the ceasefire and agreement , most of those who were still supporting noraid or one of the many "prisoner support funds" after those developments got their wake up call on 15/8/98 .

Though it should be noted that an American involved in that particular atrocity was only doing his patriotic duty ....well ....really he was only raising funds for the splinter group because his government gave him the choice of doing that or going to prison over his tax fiddle .:no:

[Duke of Gloucester]

PIRA were known to attack anyone in a uniform, including ambushing members of military bands. Do they count as military?

The PIRA also attacked other "militatry" targets such as pubs, little boys buying mothers' day presents and mothers-of-ten who happened to give first aid to dying soldiers. Bold Fenian men indeed.


Americans of Irish birth or descent provided a lot of financial (and sometimes other) support to Irish nationalists over the years 1847-1987ish. That some of us continued to support the terrorist efforts of the PIRA is shameful. That struggle was NOT a continuation of the struggle that begat the Republic.

In a way it was, though. Home rule had already been granted before the First War began. The conflict meant the Home Rule Act had been suspended and after the war, arguments about partition and the wishes of Ulster protestants prevented the act being implemented. The rebellion, civil war, troubles or whatever you want to call them were really about partition, and the argument still is not settled. These were bloody times in Ireland with atrocities on both sides not that different from what the PIRA perpetrated in the 70's/80's/90's. I don't think you can characterise the 1919-21 war as a romantic struggle for freedom. Whether you support the aims or not, it was still a brutal, heartless conflict.

On a picky point, if the struggles begat the Irish Republic, it had a long gestation (1922-1948).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Quite so.

My argument was that a qualitative difference existed in targeting between the days of Dan Breen and the "let's bomb a bus" Provos. The former did not seek out "frightfulness" targets in the same manner and it was much closer to a true guerilla approach then (though still viscious, as you note).

The Provos, as Americans belatedly began to learn, were also riddled with watermelons. I have always wondered how much of the changes and willingness to negotiate wrought in the '90s and on were a product of Soviet funds/training drying up.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think of the PIRA as terrorists, as I tend to think of people who act like terrorists (ie blowing up civilians) terrorists even when they attack solely military targets.

I suppose it's frustration with media companies refusing to call the terrorists in Iraq terrorists.

You fellows are right about American funding drying up after Americans found out what they were really about.

Crazed Rabbit

[Grey_Fox]

The PIRA also attacked other "militatry" targets such as pubs, little boys buying mothers' day presents and mothers-of-ten who happened to give first aid to dying soldiers. Bold Fenian men indeed.

The 'giving first aid to dying soldiers part' was only ever a rumour spread after her death by the IRA in order to provide some farcical semblence of justification.

[Duke of Gloucester]

My understanding is that the rumour they spread was that she was an informer. I think it was her family who tell us of the dying soldier.

[Grey_Fox]

Yeah, sorry, there were two rumours, both of which were used, neither of which were true.

[Vladimir]

Bad title. To hell with irish terrorists.

[Tribesman]

Bad title.

......Provocative title......


To hell with irish terrorists.
OK fair enough , will you extend that destination to Kurdish terrorists , Iranian ones , Cuban ones .......or are they still cool terrorists whose "cause" is OK for funding ?

[cegorach]

Throwing all terrorists of the world in one basket is simply STUPID.:book:

There is a clear difference between Bin Ladin's scums and IRA or Chechens.


The background and their targets do matter, not the term alone.:wall:

[Tribesman]

Throwing all terrorists of the world in one basket is simply STUPID.
Why ?

There is a clear difference between Bin Ladin's scums and IRA or Chechens.
Really ? what is the difference ?



Anyhow aren't they all Al-Qaida linked nowadays ~;)

[InsaneApache]

Really ? what is the difference ?


The only difference that I can see is that the PIRA try their best not to blow themselves up. Which reminds me of the one about the PIRA car bomber, who burnt his mouth on the exhaust pipe try to blow it up. :sweatdrop:

[macsen rufus]

Which reminds me of the one about

Really IA! You've gone and done it now. An insult like that about the Irish must be avenged....


... oh, dang it, there's another difference between the PIRA and Al Qaeda :laugh4:

[cegorach]

[QUOTE]Why ?

Because it is like saying that all wars are evil and that for this reason all armies and all weaponry should be destroyed which obviously would start a huge conflict between those willing to disarm and their happy extremist neighbours grasping the opportunity.

IRA and the Chechen terrorism are classical samples of nationalistic terrorism. This is often another step in a long-lasting conflict ( like Irish-British, Russian-Chechen). Sometimes it is a matter of utter despair ( Chechens, IRA to some degree - check the events as Bloody Sunday or even the famous Treaty in the NI) - the last resort of the war for independence.
So basically nationalistic terrorism has reasonable ( even it is questioned, but Polish terrorism in 1860s was as well) targets. These are POSSIBLE to achieve, unlike Al-Qaida ranting about taking revenge for reconquista of Granada in 1492 ( fact !) or world-wide caliphate without tv, internet, baths or recycling ('cause every paper might be recycled from Koran - was enough for Taliban regime).

Al-Qaida is even less reasonable than Marxist terrorists of 1960s and 70s.

Another difference is that you can and even should try to negotiate with organisations as PIRA, but there is no point in talking to Al-Qaida and similar morons.


Of course I realise you were ironic, but some others might not.:2thumbsup:

[IrishArmenian]

Americans shood've stopped funding the IRA as soon as the Republic was fownded. I wood've stopped support as soon as UK gave Ireland its own country. I always thot is was a conspiracy by the US governent to keep Eire from becoming strong and unified and become a feerce competitor with UK for trade and that sort.

[Tribesman]

Americans shood've stopped funding the IRA as soon as the Republic was fownded. I wood've stopped support as soon as UK gave Ireland its own country.
But the problem there was that the republic called for a 32 county country , they didn't get it , the compromise was that if there was a majority against that then those parts would be excluded .
Unfortunately those parts that were against it didn't form a majority in enough areas to make a viable mini-state so they added areas where the majority was for the republic to the mini-state , which creates another problem doesn't it .


I always thot is was a conspiracy by the US governent to keep Eire from becoming strong and unified and become a feerce competitor with UK for trade and that sort.
That's why they sent us DeValera , and it's the reason why the British didn't execute him :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Though it must be said that most of those Americans that I have met who supported the Corrs of Publicanism didn't have a clue what they were supporting , it was just something that was ..... as Banquos title suggests.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Americans shood've stopped funding the IRA as soon as the Republic was fownded. I wood've stopped support as soon as UK gave Ireland its own country. I always thot is was a conspiracy by the US governent to keep Eire from becoming strong and unified and become a feerce competitor with UK for trade and that sort.

Probably should have.

No conspiracy to weaken Eire existed -- we yanks just aren't that subtle.

Much of the support was money collected in pubs from Irish-descent Americans who had little clue as to the practical realities of who the Provos were and what they were doing. Heavens, some of them probably thought that the basket going around was a collection for the band who were doing such a nice rendition of "Johnson's Motorcar" at the time.