Guess the unit names! (Portugal screen shot)

[econ21]

Anyone want to guess identity of the units in this screenshot of the Portugese unit selection from the custom battle?

https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6332/portugal2ss2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Here's my guess:

3^|Col 1|Col 2|Col 3|Col 4|Col 5|Col 6|Col 7|Col 8
7^Row 1|Peasant|Town militia|Sword&buckler|Halberd Pike militia|Spear milita|Pikeman?|Dismounted MAA or knight|Dismounted conquistador
7^Row 2|Dismounted Chivalric knight|Peasant Archer|Crossbow Militia|Crossbow|Moorish Skirmisher?|Pavise Crossbow|AlmughavarSpanish javelinman|Armoured pikeArquebuiser
7^Row 3|Musketeers|Elite xbowHandgunner|Mounted Sergeant|Feudal knight|Chivalric knight|Conquistador|Unknown knight|Early general
7^Row 4|Knight of Santiago|Late general|Mounted crossbow?|Jinette|Ballista|Bombard|Cannon|Catapult


Most of the above are just guesses. I've put in bold the ones I'm pretty confident in. I'm particularly unsure about the plethora of knights and how they differ. Plus (1,8) looks like a sword and buckler unit but is the size of a cavalry unit so I am thinking he may be a dismounted cavalryman of some sort (conquistador?).

My guesses are pretty generic - anyone got knowledge of likely unique Portugese units?

EDIT: I'll edit the table where I agree with a suggestion.

PS: I have a feeling the units are arranged in a particular order, vis:

Infantry
Dismounted cav
Missiles
Cavalry
Missile cav

That, plus the size issue, is why I'm not convinced (1,8) is a sword & buckler (although it sure as heck resembles one); but I agree (2,8) is a handgunner.

BTW, Anyone want to try to decipher the corresponding Turkish screenshot?

[Maizel]

I think the first one in collum 8 isnt a dismounted something

Seem like a late type of men at arms

Possibly the sword+ buckler dudes

[Spino]

I dunno, Row 2, Column 8 looks more like an Armored Arquebusier than an Armored Pikeman. The weapon he's holding looks way too thick to be a pike and looks exactly the same as the weapon the normal Arquebusier is holding. Methinks Armored Pikemen will only be buildable by select few factions (i.e. HRE) or whomever owns Switzerland.

[Brutus]

Row 3, column 2 looks more like a musketeer. At least, it doesn't seem like a crossbow he's holding.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think one of the heavy cavalrymen could be either a Knight of Christ or Knight of Aviz.

[ChewieTobbacca]

Yeah, 3,2 doesn't really look like a crossbow

[Nathanael]

It's hard to tell about 3,2, it could be an arbalest from the side or it could be some kind of firearm. It looks like it's probably pretty high up, is there any famous Portugeuse crossbow-wielding unit?

And 3,1 is probably not musketeer, even though you're pretty sure. You're missing the name on the top of the page, the unit that is highlighted (although the mouse is strangely missing) - Portuguese Arquebusiers. So that's probably what 3,1 is.

And someone should definitely start one of these for the Turks who knows how to make that table.

[econ21]

Good points about the gunpowder troops. I know (3,1) is a musketeer for sure, as the unit is labelled in one of the other screenshots from the Portugese website. (2,8) and (3,3) may be a handgunner and an arquebusier, although which is which, I don't know. The MTW strategy guide handgunner had a shorter gun, which is why I am assigning them as I do.

[Furious Mental]

I don't think that one labelled a conquistador is a conquistador. In the screens the conquistadors only wear a cuirass and morion while that guy is fully armoured.

[econ21]

The conquistador is in one of the menu screenshots of a Spain vs Aztec custom battle.

[Ituralde]

Well this looks like fun, seems you are spot on most of the time.

Row 4,1 looks like a Knight Templar to me, with all the red cross on white. Knights Santiago had Black/White as their colours if I remember correctly, wich would make Row 3,8 a likely candidate if it weren't for the unit size.

The unknown skirmisher in Row 2,5 could very well be an unmounted Jinete, they have the same strangely shaped shield as the Jinetes had in the 3d Preview over at the com. This would also make the units on the left hand, that are already selected Jinetes. The units under the wirting I really cant discern so I can't say anything about them.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[econ21]

I am pretty sure of the Knight of Santiago - wikipedia shows the same shield.

The unit size for (2,5) is wrong for a dismounted jinette - the shield is just one used in the Spanish peninsular at the time. However, I agree that if you can dismount a jinette (e.g. in a siege), you will get that unit. It's just you can't buy it dismounted in a custom battle or train it dismounted from a SP campaign settlement.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Maybe the Skirmisher is an Dismounted Almograve?

[Stig]

4,1 should be the Portuguese Arquibusier, as that is selected ... I think

[MadKow]

The Order of Christ was in fact what the Templars became in Portugal after they were outlawed by the Pope. King D. Dinis recognzed their role in the Reconquista and so transfered all templar titles and properties to the Order of Christ. There is a magnificent Templar Castle in the City of Tomar.

The order of Santiago was also present in Portugal from the very start, both of the order and the country so it's not inconsistent at all, and yes, that is a Cross of Santiago on the Shield.

Just for general culture Santiago is short for Saint Iago, Iago being the original spanish name for the Apostle James, in english language tradition, Jacob being his Jewish name.

Tiago became a common name in portuguese by misreading Santo Iago as San Tiago.

Ill come back to this topic after i get home and get hold of my Portuguese Military History, vol 1. :book:

[hoetje]

What is an Almughavar?

[econ21]

Almughavar was a kind of light infantryman from Valencia and Murcia - often fought as mercenaries for the Byzantines. They were mainly armed with spears and javelins. There's a nice report by Muntaner about one defeating five mounted Frenceh men-at-arms in succession.

They were in MTW - dunno about M2TW, but they are a characterful unit. I doubt (2,7) is one - it looks all wrong. But the unit seems to be a skirmisher of some sort.

[MadKow]

Don't know if it is the right thread for this, but it would be nice if dismounted lance cavalry could act as pikemen, because thats what they did.
(i was reading some history of portuguese battles looking for army compositions of the period and found this to be a common tactic after 1380, when being on the defensive, of course).

Another interesting feature of the period was the difference in morale of the troops, namely those recruited from the population, between defensive campaigns and ofensive. Portuguese almost aways beat the spanish even outnumbered and poorly equiped, while later, when they took the battle to Spain the opposite ocurred, the bigger better equipped (with the spoils of previous battles) portuguese army was forced to retreat on the siege of Coria, in Castille. Would be nice to have this modeled into the game, perhaps.

Portuguese should have a dependable crossbow militia. King D.Diniz created these units, based on local craftsmen and small farmers. They had to have the income to support their weapon. They where reported to pierce armour at 70 meters.

And access to English longbows, as mercenaries.

[Afonso I of Portugal]

I think one of the heavy cavalrymen could be either a Knight of Christ or Knight of Aviz.

The knight with a blue?/green? cross on the 8 column, row 3 is a knight Avis, because if it was a knight Templar/Christ, the cross should be red like the knight Santiago.

There are muslim warriors as well. row 1, column 8 is somekind of moorish fighter, because the round shield and the muslim like sword. On the row 2, column 5 there's a moorish skirmisher. On the row 1, column 5 i think it is an Almughavar (or Almograve) because the light equipment spear and shield.

The other units are armored arquebusiers and armored pikemen like you said.

I noticed there is a lot of heavy cavalry and lack of light. However, Portuguese, Castilian-Leonese and Aragonese armies did use the Ginetes - light cavalry of muslim origin. They also use mounted almughavars.

[SirGrotius]

The graphics look so good I can't even focus on the unit types.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think the butterfly shaped shield man is an almograve. They were frontier troops so if they are armed in the moorish fashion that would be fine. I don't think the row 1,8 isn't a conquistador probably just a Sword and Buckler. Row 1, third in is probably a Man at arms. The last two cav units in the last row i can't make out. The last one looks like it has a moorish shield so perhaps it is a mounted almograve or a ginette. Maybe the unit earlier mentioned with such a shield is a dismounted ginette

[Ituralde]

Ahh.. my bad, I confused the Knights Santiago with the Hospitalier Knights, them being black and white. Sorry for that!

[econ21]

The knight with a blue?/green? cross on the 8 column, row 3 is a knight Avis...

Yes, the shield is right but I am pretty sure about this one as the unit size is wrong. There has to be an early and late general, and there are only two size 16 knights.

Normal cavalry - including dismounted variants - are size 32.

[Braden]

Lets have a stab at this, beginning top row working left to right:

Row 1: Peasant – Almughavar – Handgunner – Armoured Pike – Order Footmen – Urban Militia – Dismounted Early Knight – Dismounted Sergeants

(I have opted for “Handgunner” as it just looks like them. Have gone for “dismounted” type units due to the small size of the units – if it was a dedicated infantry unit it would be next to useless)

Row 2: Chivalric foot knights – Bulgarian Brigands (or equiv) – Crossbow – Arbalesters – Armoured Javelin – Pavise Crossbow – Jobbagy or Spanish Javelinman – Arquebusier

Row 3: Musketeer – Armoured Arbalesters? –


Then it starts getting into various types of Knights and I’m not as historically minded as most. I will say though that there are several units here that will be completely new but may “look” like familiar units from the old Medieval game.

[The Wizard]

Row 1, Column 8 -- Sword-and-bucklermen. Check the recent Sicilian preview on IGN for more.

[econ21]

Row 1, Column 8 -- Sword-and-bucklermen. Check the recent Sicilian preview on IGN for more.

Right uniform - wrong unit size; it's the size for dismounted cav.

I am pretty sure sword and buckler men are (1,3): right unit size, same wrinkly buckler and has padded armour, not cuirass.

[The Wizard]

Nope -- lacking color, as well as the Spanish helmet and steel shield. Check the Sicily preview. Either IGN's wrong or I need some serious glasses.

[Nathanael]

I still say 3,1 is an arquebus, because we know that's a unit and 3,2's weapon is too short and 2,8's is too fat. Because of length, I want to say 3,2 is a crossbow turned sideways, but it's really hard to tell even in the original shot. Could possibly be a shorter firearm, but it's a tough call either way.

[DukeofSerbia]

Maybe the Skirmisher is an Dismounted Almograve?


You mean Almughavar? No, it’s not. They weren’t mounted and they didn’t use shield. :book:



I think the butterfly shaped shield man is an almograve. They were frontier troops so if they are armed in the moorish fashion that would be fine.


See above.



I still say 3,1 is an arquebus,


No, it’s musketeer. Next screenshot reveals that.



And access to English longbows, as mercenaries.


Agree because the English longbowmen played an important role in the battle of Aljubarrota.

[DukeofSerbia]

Ok, now me. I think I have solution for almost all units.:2thumbsup: The key is in logic, various reports (like from IGN) and exploration/comparison of/and other screenshots. Pattern is Light Infantry – Spear/Pike Infantry – Heavy Infantry – Missile Infantry – Heavy Cavalry – Missile Cavalry – Artillery


Col2/Row1 is Town Militia (I know that because the same pattern/icon is used for Polish Town Militia (and other Town Militia) and it’s logical that after Peasants come Town Militia).

Col3/Row1 is Sword and Buckler Man.

Col4/Row1 is Halberd Militia.

Col6/Row1 is Pike Militia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Row 1 is pure logic: Peasant, Town Militia, Sword and Buckler Man, Halberd Militia, Spear Militia, Pike Militia + other two units. Those are all militia troops.

Col7/Row1 is Dismounted MAA (not knight, the same has Sicily).

Col8/Row1 is Dismounted Conquistador.

Col1/Row2 is Dismounted Chivalric Knight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again logic: Dismounted MAA (aka Feudal Foot Knight from original MTW), Dismounted Conquistador and Dismounted Chivalric Knight. Those are all dismounted cavalry units as there are 32 men like all cavalry units have.

Col2/Row2 is Peasant Archer.

Col3/Row2 is Crossbow Militia.

Col4/Row2 is Crossbowman.

Col5/Row2 is probably Moorish Skirmisher.

Col6/Row2 is definitely Pavise Crossbow Militia (it’s obvious because this soldiers has the same type of Crossbow as Crossbow Militia and in IGN article Sicilian Pavise Crossbowmen has the same type as Crossbowman here – it has stirrup).

Col7/Row2 is not Almughavar. Catalan Almughavars fought with a long spear, several javelins, and a big sword, but no shield.
I think it is Spanish Javelin Man from original MTW. They look absolutely the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again logic: Peasant Archer, Crossbow Militia, Crossbowman, probably Moorish Skirmisher, Pavise Crossbow Militia and probably Spanish Javelin Man. All those units are infantry missile units.

Col8/Row2 is Arquebusier (from original MTW, gun is longer and it’s logical that after Arquebusier came improved Musketeer)

Col1/Row3 is Musketeer (from later screenshots).

Col2/Row3 is Hand Gunner (from original MTW, gun is short)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again logic: Arquebusier, Musketeer and Hand Gunner. All those units are gunpowder.

Col3/Row3 is Mounted Sergeant.

Col4/Row3 is Mailed Knight (aka good old Feudal Knight from MTW).

Col5/Row3 is Chivalric Knight.

Col6/Row3 is Conquistador.

Col7/Row3 is mystery (he don’t look as knight of Cavaleiros de Cristo or Ordem de Aviz)

Col8/Row3 is Early General Bodyguard (because there are only 16 men in unit).

Col1/Row4 is Knight of Sao Thiago.

Col2/Row4 is Late General Bodyguard (because there are only 16 men in unit).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again logic: Mounted Sergeant, Mailed Knight, Chivalric Knight (from weakest to strongest generic knight), Conquistador, ?, Early General Bodyguard, Knight of Sao Thiago and Late General Bodyguard. All those units are cavalry.

Col3/Row4 is Mounted Crossbowman.

Col4/Row4 is Ginete.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again logic: Mounted Crossbowman and Ginete. Both units are missile cavalry.
Col5/Row4 is Ballista.

Col6/Row4 is probably Ribault (=Organ Gun).

Col7/Row4 is Bombard.

Col8/Row4 is Catapult.

[DukeofSerbia]

To finalize:

Row 1: Peasant, Town Militia, Sword and Buckler Man, Halberd Militia, Spear Militia, Pike Militia, Dismounted MAA and Dismounted Conquistador.

Row 2: Dismounted Chivalric Knight, Peasant Archer, Crossbow Militia, Crossbowman, probably Moorish Skirmisher, Pavise Crossbow Militia, probably Spanish Javelin Man and Arquebusier.

Row 3: Musketeer, Hand Gunner, Mounted Sergeant, Mailed Knight, Chivalric Knight, Conquistador, ? and Early General Bodyguard.

Row 4: Knight of Santiago, Late General Bodyguard, Mounted Crossbowman, Jinette, Ballista, probably Ribault, Bombard and Catapult.

[econ21]

Good ideas, DukeofSerbia - I've incorporated some into the first post table. :2thumbsup:

[DukeofSerbia]

Good ideas, DukeofSerbia - I've incorporated some into the first post table. :2thumbsup:

I will save this thread in my hard and when M2 TW came in market you will see that I had right in almost all units.:book: :2thumbsup: