Guess the unit names II (Turk screenshot)

[econ21]

OK, any ideas what the following units are:

https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5236/turkey2er5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Based on the IGN guide, here's my best guess as to the unit identities:

3^|Col 1|Col 2|Col 3|Col 4|Col 5|Col 6|Col 7|Col 8
7^Row 1|Peasant|Town militia|Azabs|Saracen Spearman|Halberd militia|Spear militia|Janissary Heavy Infantry|Hashishim
7^Row 2|Dismounted Siphai Lancer|Peasant archer|Turkish javelinman|Turkish archer|Ottoman infantry|Naffatun|Handgunner|Janissary archer
7^Row 3|Janissary Musketeer|Siphai lancer|Early genera|Quapukulu|Late general|Turkish horse archer|Turcoman horse archer|Sipahi
7^Row 4|Ballista|Bombard|Catapult|Grand bombard|Trebuchet|Cannon|Monster bombard|


I'm still a little unsure which is which of (1,2) and (1,3) but the rest seem straightforward.

For reference, this is what I came up with before the IGN guide, taking on board subsequent posters suggestions (only got half a dozen or so clearly wrong):

3^|Col 1|Col 2|Col 3|Col 4|Col 5|Col 6|Col 7|Col 8
7^Row 1|Peasant|Muhawid spearman|Ghazi infantry|Spearman|Ottoman Infantry|Spear militia|Janissary Heavy Infantry|Elite swords - Hashishin?
7^Row 2|Dismounted Siphai|Peasant archer|Skirmisher?|Turcoman foot|Futuwwa|Naffatun|Handgunner|Janissary archer
7^Row 3|Janissary Musketeer|Siphai|Early general|Ghulam cavalry|Late general|Horse archer|Turcoman horse archer|Sipahi of the Porte
7^Row 4|Ballista|Bombard|Catapult|Grand bombard|Trebuchet|Cannon|Monster bombard|

[CaesarAugustus]

So peasent units are down to 60 now? (maybe just different unit settings, but their numbers are equal to those of a fairly good spear unit which doesn't seem right)

Those Basilisk Cannons look cool, are they just for muslim factions?

[econ21]

Yes, the Sicilian peasants were size 60. If this means the demise the peasant unit, I won't be sad. Many good mods get rid of them, so as not to tempt the AI and also to avoid the player using them as cheap law n order units.

Maybe the monster cannon is not a basilisk (the Turks apparently had a unique monster they used for Constantinople), but the Russian preview gives them an enormous cannon and calls it a basilisk so I've called it that until someone corrects me.

[ChewieTobbacca]

The Turks get a Janissary Handgunner or something like that.. was in one of the videos

[DukeofSerbia]

Ottoman infantry is in Row 1/Column. I think because Ottoman Infantry used round shield and sabre.:book: But problem is there are 24 men.

[econ21]

Ottoman infantry is in Row 1/Column. I think because Ottoman Infantry used round shield and sabre.:book: But problem is there are 24 men.

There's a menu screenshot of the Turkish faction with a halberd wielding soldier labelled as Ottoman infantry. So I think in this version, Ottoman infantry lose their bows and pick up the halberd.

The 24 man unit is mysterious - it is too small even to be dismounted cavalry. I think it must be some elite type unit - like VI berserkers, RTW arcani or gladiators etc. ie so powerful it only needs to be half the strength of a regular infantry unit. Maybe with 2 hit points?

[cutepuppy]

The 24 man unit is mysterious - it is too small even to be dismounted cavalry. I think it must be some elite type unit - like VI berserkers, RTW arcani or gladiators etc. ie so powerful it only needs to be half the strength of a regular infantry unit. Maybe with 2 hit points?

hashishin??

[Nathanael]

Here's my guesses:

Row 1: peasants, spear militia or muwahid foot soldiers (it is a small spear unit after all), ghazis or some kind of skirmisher (hard to see the weapon), spears of some kind (maybe militia if the first is muwahid), ottoman infantry, saracen infantry, JHI, hashishin (or the new equivalent)

Row 2: dismounted (ottoman?) sipahi, skirmisher of some kind (maybe turcoman? has similar unique-ish outfit to archer unit to the right), turcoman foot? (small shield), futuwwa? (large shield), naffatun, handgunner (thick-looking gun, so probably not arq), janissary archers or infantry (hopefully the second)

Row 3: janissary handgun, (ottoman) sipahi (definitely dismounts to 2,1), early bodyguard, lots of armor so maybe kwarazmiam?, late bodyguard, horse archers, turcoman horse, sipahi of the porte

Row 4: mostly obvious, but maybe it's demi-cannon instead of cannon and basilisk instead of grand bombard

[econ21]

A lot of good ideas, Nathanael - I've incorporated some into the table. It looks much less generic now. :2thumbsup:

[the_mango55]

Those are good ideas, looks almost perfect to me, the only changes I would make:

1st row 2nd column I think are militia spears, militia will probably come in smaller unit sizes than rank and file spearmen, since they are mostly only for maintaining a garrison.

and Column 6 is Muhawid spearman.

Also, as much as I would like to see Jannissary Handgunners, those are probably just Arqebusiers.

@ CaesarAgustus: Peasants have always been the same size as the large spearman groups. These units are obviously on "Standard" unit sizes, the peasants of RTW were also 60 strong on that size.

[Nathanael]

Those are good ideas, looks almost perfect to me, the only changes I would make:

1st row 2nd column I think are militia spears, militia will probably come in smaller unit sizes than rank and file spearmen, since they are mostly only for maintaining a garrison.

and Column 6 is Muhawid spearman.


Well, compare to the portugeuse units — they only have 60-man spear units and almost surely have spear militia. Plus muwahid foot were always uniquely small among spears because they were more offensive while the others are defensive.


Also, as much as I would like to see Jannissary Handgunners, those are probably just Arqebusiers.

A couple reasons:

1. the gun is fat, just like the other handgunner
2. someone said janissary handgunners are a confirmed unit

[Myrddraal]

6/4 is the culverin no?

[the_mango55]

A couple reasons:

1. the gun is fat, just like the other handgunner
2. someone said janissary handgunners are a confirmed unit

Huh, is this the late unit selection?

I like that they have Jannissaries, but I would also be disapointed if the turks didn't get arquebusiers.

[Nathanael]

Hmmm, I just looked at the faction selection screencap again, and we may have JHI and Ottoman Infantry backwards. It looks like its the Ottomans with the funny helmet. Although maybe as they upgrade they get the helmet too? Because what we've got labelled as JHI looks like the stronger unit.

Regarding aquebusiers, it looks like the Turks may not get them. With that and the lack of crossbows at all (in MTW they lacked just arbs/pav arbs), they seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to long range anti-armor missiles. They do have a lot of standard archers, however, and maybe the Janissary handgunners have longer range than the standard.

[Nathanael]

Oh, and Hungary's faction selection screencap shows a unit called Battlefield Assassins that looks similar to the 24-man unit, so it probably is hashishin or battlefield hashishin or battlefield assassin (if they decide to lose the flavor of the name).

[Furious Mental]

That Janissary is holding an arquebus. It is nowhere near as fat as the hand guns you see in other screens, nor is it as fat as that thing in the row above which is obviously a hand gun. Compare it to the arquebus being held by the Portugese arquebusier in the other thread. They're exactly the same. That's a Janissay arquebusier.

[Nathanael]

Hmmm, I looked at the original, larger screenshot, and I think you may be right. I'm not 100 percent positive because perspective might be throwing things off, but I'll agree that it doesn't look as fat as the other handgun units. At the same time, it doesn't look nearly as long as the Portugeuse unit's arquebus, though.

Can we get a source on the Janissary handgun video?

[ChewieTobbacca]

The Janissary gunners are called: Janissary Musketeer

At 2:44 in the HQ version of the Medieval 2 Total War videos (Chapter 1 - Overview), it shows a video of them w/ the highlighted name firing on some English troops I believe

[R'as al Ghul]

Is it possible that the peasants aren't peasants?
Do all factions have to have peasants?
I think they don't look like it and Turks being semi-nomadic and not having a "feudal" structure it could be that they are another light troop of some kind. If you compare them to the Portuguese pitchfork wielders they have a more military professional look. Also what's their weapon? Doesn't look like a tool....

R'as

[Wandarah]

gives them an enormous cannon and calls

This does not say 'enormous cannon and balls'.This does not say 'enormous cannon and balls'.This does not say 'enormous cannon and balls'.

Not enough sleep.

[DukeofSerbia]

There's a menu screenshot of the Turkish faction with a halberd wielding soldier labelled as Ottoman infantry. So I think in this version, Ottoman infantry lose their bows and pick up the halberd.


Weird. Janissary used some kind of polearms called jilyt, not halberd. And classical Ottoman infantry used Persian sabre.:book:



The 24 man unit is mysterious - it is too small even to be dismounted cavalry. I think it must be some elite type unit - like VI berserkers, RTW arcani or gladiators etc. ie so powerful it only needs to be half the strength of a regular infantry unit. Maybe with 2 hit points?

No HP 2. Both saw on example of Polish Guard. Only better statistics.

[Furious Mental]

I think they may be some kind of battlefield assassin unit, like the Hashishin.

[DukeofSerbia]

Col1/Row2 is not Dismounted Sipahi. Sipahi uses bow not javelin.

Col5/Row1 can be Janissary infantry. It can't be Ottoman infantry.

[Denizar]

Instead of the feudal system, the Turks had the timar system. See my essay on it here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69648

In the timar system there were no slaves, and instead there were sipahis. So there shouldn't really be a slave unit. On the other hand, the Ottomans used units of men, generally crazy people, freaks, or emigrating Turks (ottomans did not equal Turks.) in front lines to break the enemy formations before the main, trained forces attacked.

Turks were originally emigrating people, and after the establishment of the Ottoman government, the ones that continued the emigrating culture possessed a lot of problems for the Ottomans. Therefore, the government would usually just move them around for their benefit, or just use the ones that made trouble in battles. I am not 100% sure on which periods this was present in the Empire, but it did exist at some point.

[DukeofSerbia]

Pattern is: Light Infantry – Spear/Pike Infantry – Heavy Infantry – Missile Infantry – Heavy Cavalry – Missile Cavalry – Artillery

Row 1: Peasant, ?, ?, Saracen Infantry (?), Janissary Infantry (?), Spearman (?), Ottoman Infantry, Ghazi (?).
Row 2: ?, Peasant Archer, ?, Turcoman Foot Soldier, Futuwwa, Naptha Thrower, ?, Janissary Archer.
Row 3: Janissary Musketeer, Armenian Heavy Cavalry or Ghulam Cavalry (?), Early General Bodyguard, Khwarazmian Cavalry (?), Late General Bodyguard, Horse Archer, Turcoman Horse Archer and Sipahi of the Porte.
Row 4: Ballista, Bombard, Catapult, Grand Bombard, Trebuchet, Canon and Basilisk (?).


@econ21

In col7/row1 is Ottoman Infantry. Yes, it’s weird and has nothing with history but it seems that is not for CA. Look on this new Polish screenshot when you choose Turks to play with them – Ottoman Infantry. http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/camp_turk.JPG
Weird, but it’s true.

In col8/row1 can be Ghazi. :2thumbsup: They are only fanatics for Turks because of number. Again, it’s not historical because that’s how looked Ottoman infantry. Months ago, in many screenshots (Danes vs. Turks) this unit was mainly force for Turks. I don’t have better explanation right now…

[econ21]

Upated first post in incorporate IGN faction preview information.

[Little Legioner]

I think they're Ottoman Infantry and check this picture. It's old but could be accurate.

https://img53.imageshack.us/img53/9827/ottomaninfantrywv6.jpg

And take a look at IGN's phrase about them:


Ottoman Infantry
Ottoman Infantry are hardy soldiers, well armed and well armoured, they fight with both bows and swords, allowing them to pepper the enemy with arrows and then move into melee to finish them off. Their armour, and training in melee, also means that this unit can hold its ground against enemy units unlike most other missile units.

[Watchman]

That one looks like a sheathed sabre to me (recall that such paraphenelia does not change in RTW at least regardless of what the model is fighting with). That, or it would be one really strange looking composite bow...

[Nathanael]

I'd say that's probably them because it does look like the archer at 2,5 and they're pretty much the only Turkish unit using a sword (except hashishin and possibly Azabs). However, the thing you're asking about being a quiver looks more like a curved scabbard to me.

[econ21]

We know that units can get their armour upgraded and that this will be reflected on the models. So I suspect the screenshot in the first post shows the unupgraded units - it may be that you can load up your JHI and Ottoman infantry with rather more armour than custom battle screen suggests.