View Full Version : the knights templar
did anyone catch the "decoding the past" episode tonight on history channel? They talked about the knights of the templar, and what was the real purpose of their existence. It pretty much described the 9 founders as glorified grave robbers, i caught the first half hour of it, kind of left a lot of questions unanswered though.
Anyways, what faction does the templar knights belong to in the MTW2? I saw their pic on the official site, the cape over the horse is somehow blue, instead of the white ones that were widely featured on history channel documentaries, does anyone think that is consistent with history?
Also, I just saw the menu pictures someone posted, according to those pictures (faction selection ones), the English have a weak collective variety of cavalry, is this historically accurate? If so, wouldn't the English be at a huge disadvantage in fighting against the french and the holy romans, since those factions are heavily cavalry based, and someone said that the game is heavily influenced by knights? I am partial to selecting the english, but I wonder if there are good mercenary cavalry units, like if the templar knights are available for all factions that have joined the crusade.
Also, I just saw the menu pictures someone posted, according to those pictures (faction selection ones), the English have a weak collective variety of cavalry, is this historically accurate? If so, wouldn't the English be at a huge disadvantage in fighting against the french and the holy romans, since those factions are heavily cavalry based, and someone said that the game is heavily influenced by knights? I am partial to selecting the english, but I wonder if there are good mercenary cavalry units, like if the templar knights are available for all factions that have joined the crusade.
In MTW, England and France got Templars, so I expect they'll get them in M2TW.
England should certainly field fewer mounted knights, as they tended to fight dismounted. However, I think most Catholic factions get their own chivalric knights - I've seen screenshots labelled "English knights" (n.b. "Polish knights" are just chivalric knights in terms of stats, with the faction specific name). I also hope England gets Norman knights, which should be somewhat superior feudal knights. They'll probably also get hobilars, mounted sergeants and will get demi-lancers. I suspect their weak selection of cavalry will be like in MTW - they'll lack any missile cavalry and won't get Gothic knights (demi-lancers look to have a lot of plate armour, but will still be lighter than the the Gothic knights).
If this were RTW, lack of cavalry would be a major disadvantage. But the indications are that cavalry will be weakened in M2TW, so I don't think the English will be that disadvantaged. Historically, dismounted knights were able to hold off mounted knights fairly easily - hence the French started to dismount during the Hundred Years War.
Bob the Insane
09-29-2006, 11:08
Well as the crusader units become available a mercenaries for the crusade armies it may depend on the areas you are passing through as to what sorts of units you can hire... It could still result in your crusades having a bit of the old international flavour...
Darth Nihilus
09-29-2006, 15:27
I watched that episode as well. Very interesting, and it's not the only time the history channel has aired somthing on the Templars. From things I have read about the Templars I got the vibe that they ended up being overprivalaged bullies. I'm assuming that they didn't start out that way though. I have always wished that the crusader knights were recruitable to their respective factions, even though I know its not very accurate historically.
does anyone know if the english will get norman knights?
Sun of Chersonesos
09-29-2006, 17:35
if you ask me, it doesn't seem to me like the knights templar will be very good even though if i quote what it said on the TW official site; "woe betay anyone who face these brothers when they take the field," they dont look very good, no lances, small shield no armour,
WHATS SO GOOD ABOUT KNIGHTS TEMPLAR
Darth Nihilus
09-29-2006, 17:37
I'm sure they will, although I'm sure they won't get much else in terms of knights considering that thier "weakness" for this game will be mounted cavalry.
Tiberius maximus
09-29-2006, 18:22
yeah that history channel thing was cool and all. but they better not be just mounted cavalry or im gonna to be really angery:shame:
Bob the Insane
09-29-2006, 18:41
Used to think they were great, but just can't get over Russell Crow's performance in Kingdom of Heaven... :laugh4:
if you ask me, it doesn't seem to me like the knights templar will be very good even though if i quote what it said on the TW official site; "woe betay anyone who face these brothers when they take the field," they dont look very good, no lances, small shield no armour.
Well that's pretty interesting that they are perpetuating in M2TW an acknowledged mistake by a graphic artist in MTW of depicting the Knights Templar without a lance. LongJohn then had to reduce the charge bonus of the unit because of that mistake.
I believe the Knights Templar were one of the more militant and disciplined groups of Knightly orders, and were pretty fearsome on the battlefield.
Now as to their behavior off the battlfield, I do not know.
Anyone remember the templar knight from Ivanhoe? :D
CrownOfSwords
09-29-2006, 22:39
It was Orlando Bloom in Kingdom of Heaven and he wasn't represented as a knight templar. And knights templar fought in heavy armor and with lances, id say they were pretty good soldiers considering how rich the order was. I believe they were the first banking system in Europe, they could definately afford good armor and weapons along with extensive training grounds. Im happy with how they are representing Crusades, Crusader units should not be able to be recruited by nations, except maybe scotland. (After being dissolved many knight templars fled to scotland where it is even said they helped fight for the independance from England in the William Wallace era.)
-CoS
The Templar order was converted into the Order of Christ in Portugal under the sponsoring of our King at the time, for the services of the Templars during the Reconquista. To show you how important this order was still during the 15th century and even 16th, the sails of the Portuguese ships carried their cross.
And to this day it's the symbol of our military, and generally a symbol of the country.
Hospitalars were also around. But i guess Santiago has the iberian flavour.
Anyway, it is not inacurate to have recruitable "Crusader" units. Military orders were part of the standing army. During the Kigdom of John I, of Portugal, The Orders of Christ, Santiago, Aviz and Hospitalar (being the first 2 the most powerful) were to contribute with almost 400 spears, thats roughly 10% of the force. And they were used in internal disputes, against the Moors, or even on the ocasional fight against the Spanish.
Bob the Insane
09-29-2006, 23:48
It was Orlando Bloom in Kingdom of Heaven and he wasn't represented as a knight templar.
Dude... Well I know Orlando was the hero and all but I did not mean him...
I still got the actor wrong though, it was not Russell Crow it was Marton Csokas playing Guy de Lusignan...:wall:
This guy:
http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0320661/Ss/0320661/KOH-530.jpg?path=gallery&path_key=0320661
Anyway it was his hamming up of the evil and more than a little nuts crusader that did the Templars in for me.. :laugh4:
In MTW, England and France got Templars, so I expect they'll get them in M2TW.
England should certainly field fewer mounted knights, as they tended to fight dismounted. However, I think most Catholic factions get their own chivalric knights - I've seen screenshots labelled "English knights" (n.b. "Polish knights" are just chivalric knights in terms of stats, with the faction specific name). I also hope England gets Norman knights, which should be somewhat superior feudal knights. They'll probably also get hobilars, mounted sergeants and will get demi-lancers. I suspect their weak selection of cavalry will be like in MTW - they'll lack any missile cavalry and won't get Gothic knights (demi-lancers look to have a lot of plate armour, but will still be lighter than the the Gothic knights).
If this were RTW, lack of cavalry would be a major disadvantage. But the indications are that cavalry will be weakened in M2TW, so I don't think the English will be that disadvantaged. Historically, dismounted knights were able to hold off mounted knights fairly easily - hence the French started to dismount during the Hundred Years War.
I suspect that crusader units will be like a second mercenary group. IE there are pools based on provinces. So you can recruit Templars in France, England, and Sicily. You get Santiago's in Spain. Hospitallers in Italy (and Sicily), and Teutonics in Germany, Poland, and the Baltics.
Now for me the whole crusader thing would be better if you could get chapter houses in the holy land that let you recruit order knights. So that the Templars, Hospitallers, and Teutonics are like a guild that you can attract to the holy land.
Randarkmaan
09-30-2006, 15:28
if you ask me, it doesn't seem to me like the knights templar will be very good even though if i quote what it said on the TW official site; "woe betay anyone who face these brothers when they take the field," they dont look very good, no lances, small shield no armour.
NO ARMOUR?! What made you think that, they almost certainly do wear armour, they just wear robes over that armour (as the Templars did)
CrackerJap
09-30-2006, 16:38
I don't think they could really be a highly esteemed order of knights if they didn't use armor, which aside from being practical would've been a display of their wealth.
Sun of Chersonesos
09-30-2006, 16:48
well be that as it may, the knights templar dont look very intimidating because of the robes and the small-shield and the sword are very off-putting if i may say so
CrackerJap
09-30-2006, 16:50
I'm pretty sure they've said that the units become more armoured and geared up as time progresses so maybe this knight is just an early one and they get more armor as technology/time progresses.
Sun of Chersonesos
09-30-2006, 16:52
I'm pretty sure they've said that the units become more armoured and geared up as time progresses so maybe this knight is just an early one and they get more armor as technology/time progresses.
how dare you
Sun of Chersonesos
09-30-2006, 16:58
with all do respect CrackerJap, that answer isn't very reliable, they want to excite and encourage people, consequently would they not show the latest version of the Templar as to make people say "good heavens"
CrackerJap
09-30-2006, 17:14
Fine, be a pessimist
Randarkmaan
09-30-2006, 17:19
I don't think the Templars are supposed to be itimidating or impressive in appearance, as they had rules that every one was to be "poor" and they disallowed any decoration on weapons, armour or clothing. What scared the Templars' enemies were not their appearance, but their reputation for being highly skilled and fanatical fighters usually fighting to the last man.
I think it was Saladin (though it may have been some other) who said that a normal Frankish army could be overcome with similar or even fewer numbers of men. But a force of Templars often had to be outnumbered 4 or 5-1 and even then you should expect high casualties. Their reputation led the Templars' enemies to fear their appearance even if their appearance alone was not particularly intimidating or awe-inspiring.
Sun of Chersonesos
09-30-2006, 17:25
in that case i am excited to play knights templar but there's one thing... on the shield there is a cross. Oh No theyve broken a rule, no decoration
Randarkmaan
09-30-2006, 17:27
Funny that you mentioned that, actually their shield contained no cross... Well not traditionally, many propably had crosses on their shields anyway (however keep in mind that even though someone has a red cross on their shield it does not mean they are Templars).
their shield was half black and half white. The red cross was actually only just a small red cross worn on the left side of their chest, the special thing about it being that all the cross's arms were of equal lenght, different from the 'standard' cross. Originally this was not present on their uniform, it was awarded by some pope and it represented martyrdom.
How will you be able to recruit templars? is it only if you are currently participating in crusade and have built a templar chapter house or equivalent? If so, once the crusade is over, does your unit of templars disappear or do you get to keep it? Can you recruit templars if you are not currently in a crusade?
Watchman
10-26-2006, 07:31
The military Orders on the whole were pretty disciplined and professional bunches by the standards of the time, and that made them considerably better fighters than most normal knights. The fact that they were also prone to be religious zealots didn't hurt.
Anyway, they naturally fought in the best armour of the time they could get. I'll bet the habit of wearing robes or surcoats over the armour was there from the start - there's good practical reasons to cover metal worn from the merciless Mediterranean sun after all, and all "Franks" in the Outremer wasted no time copying the local practice of doing so.
Although I thought the Templars' colours were red on white...? You'd think that was used on most shield blazons too... And respectively the Johannites/Hospitallers has white on black and the Teutonics black on white, IIRC - the numerous smaller Orders I know rather less about.
Randarkmaan
10-26-2006, 11:04
The Templars' banner was black and white(sometimes with a black cross on the white area), their shields were black and white, and their uniforms (robes) were white (with a small red cross).
Orda Khan
10-26-2006, 11:06
The Templars' banner was black and white(sometimes with a black cross on the white area), their shields were black and white, and their uniforms (robes) were white (with a small red cross).
Correct
......Orda
I think the best way is a chapter house/guild hall thing that can onl be built in the Holy Lands, Malta and Cyprus. Also the Papal army should have a lot of Templars etc in it.
Knights Templar fought in Papal army? Care to elaborate, aracnid? I have not seen anywhere that Knights Templar were in any Papal army.
Annie
That's because there wasn't much of a papal army until later on. Until the 1300 they were a pretty independant part of the HRE, after that there was an independant papal realm. So at the start of the game the Papal States are part of the HRE, but for gameplay reasons they have to be independant, thus you can give them whatever army seems sensible, as it is the papacy a few religous fanatics seems appropiate.
I wouldn't give the Papal State control of Templar Knights, if you read their history.
Anniep
elaborate:
- the Knight Order was found in 12th century after the 1st Crusade to protect Christian pilgrims between the port of Jaffa and Jerusalem.
- The region of operation of the Order was around Jerusalem, although they have headquarters in islands of the Mediterranean. Although they recruit throughout Europe and have many centers there, they don't assemble into an army to fight in Western Europe.
- The Knights were executed by the order of the Pope in 14th century. The Pope never had control of the Knights, although they enjoy papal exemption (answer only to the Church, not loyal to any king). In fact, they grew in popularity and power that the Church (and King Philip the Fair of France) feared.
It was said by CA at one time that Templars and such would be recruited from thier Guild Halls. So once you've built a level of a Guild Hall you'd be able to recruit the appropriate troops. What hasn't been said is what requirements would be needed to get the Templars to let you build a Guild Hall, or either of the higher level Halls. I'd assume in the case of Templars that going on Crusades would help. But no one really knows at this time. Well, CA does but they won't talk.)
Would be interesting to have a mod where the Templars could be played as a faction :)
You start out in Jerusalem, but has "tax" and recruitment throughout Europe. You try to grow in power and wealth, fight the Muslims, add territories, brush off with the Pope and the King of France and other Monarches. If you fail, you will be burned at the Stake, your wealth confiscated. If you succeed, you will become an international force, on the road to world domination. 200 years of fun!
:D
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