The Battle of Hastings

[Underdog687]

Here are some pics on the newly announced battle of hastings, http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/hist_hastings.JPG, i was just wondering do the armies look right ecspecially on the saxons sheild wall.

Extra pics http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/army_hastings1.JPG and http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/army_hastings2.JPG

i was just seeing if people like the layout and army composition as this would be one of my faverite battles of all time along with Waterloo.

Cheers

[Furious Mental]

Looks pretty good but seriously what is with the English peasants? Fyrdmen did not fight with farm implements. I assume that the units of spearmen represent the bulk of the English fyrd, while the axemen are the housecarles (I say this only because the axemen are much less numerous, not because fyrdmen necessarily fought with a spear and housecarles with an axe). If that is the case the fyrdmen are far too numerous in relative terms. Housecarles made up a much larger proportion of the English force at Hastings than they do here, some historians even go so far as to say the majority of it. Also it would appear that the housecarles are at the back of the shield wall when in actual fact they were probably at the front of it and, if they using the Danish axe, in front of it. Oh well. As long as CA can make them form a proper shield wall and script the effect of feigned retreats it should be fairly good.

[Bob the Insane]

I wonder if they are retaining the Shield Wall special ability from BI?

[Wandarah]

I bet one zillion dollars that a charge with all that Norman Cav at the centre of the Saxon line all at once will result in total destruction!

[Ringeck]

You sure about that? I'd take your bet up and make you my debt-slave for eternity (Wow! A zillion dollars!) if I wasn't such a nice guy....

[Watchman]

Still, it can't possibly be worse than the Feudal Foot Knight horde of the old MTW...

[econ21]

I bet one zillion dollars that a charge with all that Norman Cav at the centre of the Saxon line all at once will result in total destruction!

Destruction of whom? My money is on the total destruction of the Norman cavalry but are you talking about the Saxons being destroyed?

If the Norman cav manoeuvre behind the Saxon line before charging, then the story may be reversed.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think the spearman unit is the Fyrdmen with the pitchfork guys being the peasants and then you have a normal housecarl and a more armoured variety

[shifty157]

Well aside from some inaccuracies in the description it doesnt look too bad. As long as the fyrdmen can form a shieldwall then i think it may be ok.

[Incongruous]

Too few Husskarls for my liking, but hey thos fyrdmen (armoured spearmen?) look pretty nasty. With that army, how could the English lose?
In reality it was thought that many of the Earls would not march to London with their men as they waited to see whom might win, and that Hasting was merely a mustering point for Harrold and his Loyal Lords. William was trapped on what was then a peninsula but took the initiative putting Harold on the backfoot. So I would have expected his army to be far smaller. However during the course of the battle it is thought that reincforcing contingents trickled onto the field. So perhaps CA might utilise that? I doubt it though.

But ut seems like it will be a bloody hard fight!:2thumbsup:

[Brutus]

Too few Husskarls for my liking, but hey thos fyrdmen (armoured spearmen?) look pretty nasty. With that army, how could the English lose?
In reality it was thought that many of the Earls would not march to London with their men as they waited to see whom might win, and that Hasting was merely a mustering point for Harrold and his Loyal Lords. William was trapped on what was then a peninsula but took the initiative putting Harold on the backfoot. So I would have expected his army to be far smaller. However during the course of the battle it is thought that reincforcing contingents trickled onto the field. So perhaps CA might utilise that? I doubt it though.

But ut seems like it will be a bloody hard fight!:2thumbsup:
I always thought the armies of Harold and William were about evenly matched in size? ~:confused: As far as I heard, the reason Harold lost was because some of the fyrdmen chased after some Normans performing a feint retreat, and therefore the solid shieldwall broke up. Before that, didn't the Normans actually fail at one (or several) charges, with William at one moment thought to have been killed and the Norman army almost fleeing?

Anyway, looks like it must be a fun battle. I asked this before, but nobody answered my question: are the Anglo-Saxons in as a seperate faction for the tutorial? Or will there just be another faction representing them, like the Greeks represented Tarquinii in RTW?

[Furious Mental]

The armies were probably both about 4,000. The English, obviously, were all on foot. The Norman force was probably roughly evenly divided between cavalry, foot soldiers and missile troops.

[Watchman]

One theory I've read is that the cavalry doing the feinted retreat thing were a Breton contignent. Those guys apparently still stuck to the older Roman-style hit-and-run school of horsemanship and were thus real aces at that stuff, and the Anglo-Saxons (who weren't exactly familiar with the stratagem) eventually took bait a few times which kind of weakened their line when the pursuers were duly cut off and massacred by the continental horsemen.

Before that though by most interpretations William's boys, horse and foot alike, made repeated assaults against the shieldwall and every time had to pull back to regroup after a while. Mounted shock action never worked too well against monolithic infantry walls, and if nothing else the higher ground gave the natives a major advantage in a shieldwall push even if William's heavy infantry was markedly better armoured than the average fyrdman.

There apparently indeed did at one point spread a rumour that Duke William had fallen which would have been duly devastating for the invaders' moral backbone (there are recorded cases of entire armies collapsing because the general dismounted to drink and was thought dead...), but it was contained before irrepairable damage was done.

[econ21]

I asked this before, but nobody answered my question: are the Anglo-Saxons in as a seperate faction for the tutorial? Or will there just be another faction representing them, like the Greeks represented Tarquinii in RTW?

From the screenshot, the Normans are represented by the English; the Anglo-Saxons by the HRE (although presumably the HRE won't get housecarles or units called fyrd in the main campaign).

[Furious Mental]

"even if William's heavy infantry was markedly better armoured than the average fyrdman."

It is extremely presumptuous to state that with certainty. A large proportion of the fyrd consisted of men who owed military obligations under an oath of commendation to the king, or an earl, bishop, abbot etcetera. Part of the commendation ceremony was the receipt of a heriot by the commended man. Under the laws of Cnut this included a helmet, shield and byrnie. Since commended men were likely supported by the same amount of money as fyrdmen who owed military obligations in return for holding the land from the king, it would be very strange for them to have had markedly different equipment. Aside from that an unusually large proportion of the English army were housecarles, who were most definitely armoured. In other words, neither side had much of an advantage, if any at all, in terms of how well they were equipped for their respective tactical roles.

[Brutus]

From the screenshot, the Normans are represented by the English; the Anglo-Saxons by the HRE (although presumably the HRE won't get housecarles or units called fyrd in the main campaign).
Thanks, econ21. Still I earlier noticed that the faction shield is different: after looking at the first screen in this thread, you will see that 2 different shield are displayed for the Anglo-Saxons: One is the HRE one with a yellow eagle on a black field, the other one is a yellow dragon on a black field. This of course doesn't have to mean anything, but it adds to my confusion on this point.

[Watchman]

Unless I'm getting it all wrong the fyrd was the catchall commoner levy, and those were invariably "bring your own toys" outfits even if minimum standards of equipement were enforced. Which means most of them would have had their weapons, a shield, probably a helmet, and beyond that a sturdy leather jerkin tops because your standard farmer-warriors tended not be the sort to own mail those days, because even a shirt cost around as much as a warhorse or in any case way too close for their purses.

They don't come across as terribly heavily equipped in the Tapestry either.

William's line infantry was AFAIK to a large degree mercenaries, who naturally tended to be feirly well equipped in order to both earn their pay and live to enjoy it, and because if I've understood the tendencies of the time correctly most western european armies were starting to get alarmingly low on decent "native" infantry and had to fill the need for competent footsloggers with hired troops.

Now, there were naturally less well equipped men a-plenty in William's ranks too, but the point is odds are his infantry was to a greater degree made up from well-equipped professionals than the Anglo-Saxon equivalent which despite the presence of assorted higher-end troops still drew heavily on part-time peasant-soldiers, most of whom would not have been able to afford good equipement.

Those levies do not seem to have had remarkable difficulties holding the ridge regardless of what was thrown against them though, which speaks both for their fighting qualities and the marked advantage holding the high ground always gave combatants.

[shifty157]

Well its a very difficult thing by any means to storm such a huge defensive formation as that the English had set up. In fact by all accounts for the majority of the day it seemed as if WIlliam was going to lose the battle because nothing he did could break the shieldwall. This changed of course once hit and run luring tactics were used.

It is true however that the English fyrd troops were better armed and armored than would normally be the case. Remember that not long before Hastings the English army successfully defeated another rival to the throne that had invaded England. It was by all accounts a crushing defeat and with so many dead enemy bodies lying about the English troops could pick and choose the best weapons and armor to loot for themselves.

Harold did indeed have quite an impressive force. His troops had all seen at least two battles now and were thus reasonably experienced. Having just fought and won two battles undoubtedly put them in very good spirits for the coming battle. With an armory of weapons and armor to choose from they were all reasonably well equipped for battle. Combined with their specialization in a solely defensive formation and their terrain advantage it is a wonder that William succeeded at all.

[Furious Mental]

"Unless I'm getting it all wrong the fyrd was the catchall commoner levy"

I'm afraid your view of the fyrd is not accurate although it's not surprising given that there continues to persist an idea that there existed some "great fyrd" which obliged all ceorls (i.e. free Englishmen) to answer a summons. Like I said above, there were two bases on which a person could owe fyrd service. The first was that they held land directly from the King. If a person held more than five hides of land, they had to send more than one person to the fyrd. Either they went themselves with an appropriate number of followers (one for every five hides above the first five) or they sent a contingent with a captain (e.g. an abbot would have done this). This brings me to the other way in which a person could owe fyrd service- by an oath of commendation. Oaths could be made directly to the King (e.g. in Shrewsbury it appear that at one stage the whole adult male population of 103 men had made such an oath, probably because it was in the border marches) or to someone who held land directly from the King (i.e. such a fyrdman would fight in the contingent which their lord was obliged to provide under their obligations of fyrd service to the King). The landholdings of the few fyrdmen we know by name seem puny nowadays- a fraction of a hide often. However one should bear in mind that these men were rich by the standards of their day and age. One reason is that a rich man could provide himself with good equipment; the fact that this was the intention of the fyrd is illustrated by the fact that fyrd service could only be commuted in return for a sum sufficient to pay a well equipped mercenary. In places where all or almost all of the free adult male population owed fyrd service, such as the exceptional case of Shrewsbury, their obligations were based on an oath of commendation in return for which, as I said above, they received a very impressive heriot; which meant that even those who were not rich would nonetheless be well equipped for war if their service was required.

[Orda Khan]

I bet one zillion dollars that a charge with all that Norman Cav at the centre of the Saxon line all at once will result in total destruction!
In one big unit stack? This was a major flaw introduced in RTW and one reason why the tactical battles were utter rubbish. It will be interesting to see if this actually has been removed

.......Orda

[Watchman]

*snip*
One reason is that a rich man could provide himself with good equipment; the fact that this was the intention of the fyrd is illustrated by the fact that fyrd service could only be commuted in return for a sum sufficient to pay a well equipped mercenary. In places where all or almost all of the free adult male population owed fyrd service, such as the exceptional case of Shrewsbury, their obligations were based on an oath of commendation in return for which, as I said above, they received a very impressive heriot; which meant that even those who were not rich would nonetheless be well equipped for war if their service was required.Fair enough, but the problem with this reasoning is that taken at face value this would seem to suggest the whole lot of 'em were kitted out in about huscarle-level protective gear. Which doesn't sound all that likely, especially when one keeps in mind that weapons, large shield plus maybe a helmet is pretty well equipped for war for most intents and purposes. Assuming the men so equipped are confident, have a decent idea of how to use their weapons, and are employed properly, they make quite a solid fighting force already. If they can be kitted with real armour, excellent, but the difference it makes (recall that this would be about a mail shirt) isn't all that great.

Besides...

If a person held more than five hides of land, they had to send more than one person to the fyrd. Either they went themselves with an appropriate number of followers (one for every five hides above the first five) or they sent a contingent with a captain (e.g. an abbot would have done this)....what are the odds even a rich man could equip several men from such a contignent with metal armour ? Mail was fairly costly stuff those days, and Harold used what troops he could rush to the scene at the time. Granted, wherever possible the fellows with armour would be put into the front rank but that was universal practice.

William, scraping the very bottom of the barrell as he now also was, nonetheless wasn't rushing across half England after a major battle and it should be kept in mind the payment of his mercenaries was to a large degree in potentia, as plunder and land to be won across the Channel. He could afford to be a bit more picky if it came to that.

[ChewieTobbacca]

In one big unit stack? This was a major flaw introduced in RTW and one reason why the tactical battles were utter rubbish. It will be interesting to see if this actually has been removed

.......Orda

Apparently the pathing of units in M2TW has been rectified as in the developer blog..

[Furious Mental]

"what are the odds even a rich man could equip several men from such a contignent with metal armour ?"

Given that the size of the contingent a cyngid thegn had to send was directly proportional to how much land he owned the odds I think can be taken to be close to certain, because as I said before the whole system was structured so as to ensure that the King was sent well equipped semi-professional infantry, including if the summons was at short notice as Harold's was. One man for every five hides, one heriot for every man who is summoned, one mercenary's pay for every man that didn't show. England at that stage was incredibly wealthy, as the fantastic sums forked out in the form of Danegeld illustrate.

[Bagpuss]

Furious Mental
Are you Mike Loades the historian ,by chance ? :)