Catapults or Ongers?

[Goatus_Boyus]

I am deep in a Epeiros campagan,am wodering when do ongers or catapults become avalible?...some of my barricks have somthing like catapulta meglos? or somthing like that on the list ,do I need to build somthing else to get them? or are they not in Europa,and if they are what factions can have them?

[abou]

Onagers came into common use outside of the EB time frame and so the main siege engine will be the catapulta/ballista. I would like to see different types of the two-armed engines, but if there are more important units to fill that slot they shouldn't be neglected.

[Olaf The Great]

Plus Onagers were actually small mobile catapults, but...didn't they have catapults back then?

[O'ETAIPOS]

Proper catapults will be in v.8 (sadly without new battlemap graphic, as there are some problems with making them)

If I remember corectly there is one type of siege engine in v.74 and it either needs one of the higest academy buildings or is even recruited there.

[fallen851]

So will the unitcard show a different picture that the actually siege weapon?

[cunctator]

Yes, in most cases.

[Goatus_Boyus]

In Athens..My baracks has "Catupulta Megale schole" on the unit list,Athens has an academy,and a pop of 22,000 needing 24,000 for it's next level,so I need the next level of academy to get them?

[Cheexsta]

Plus Onagers were actually small mobile catapults, but...didn't they have catapults back then?
Ballistae are catapults. Not really the normal modern view of a 'catapult', but they are still classed as such.

No, onagers are not realistic for this time period.

[Trithemius]

In Athens..My baracks has "Catupulta Megale schole" on the unit list,Athens has an academy,and a pop of 22,000 needing 24,000 for it's next level,so I need the next level of academy to get them?

You need the top level school building, yes. I finally have some for my Baktrian game, although they slow my field armies down a lot (I leave them in forward settlements when my armies march back to by homeland depots for rearmament and reassignment of commanders).

[cunctator]

Ballistae are catapults. Not really the normal modern view of a 'catapult', but they are still classed as such.

No, onagers are not realistic for this time period.


For the romans a catapulta was a heavy, torsion powered, two armed arrow thrower, a ballista a two armed stone thrower.

[fallen851]

Can we see a picture of what the new models are going to look like?

[Olaf The Great]

Ballistae are catapults. Not really the normal modern view of a 'catapult', but they are still classed as such.

No, onagers are not realistic for this time period.Well I mean the modern version, for some reason catapulta and Ballistai were switched, probably a miss-translation, when this happend I am not sure, and you are right, Onagers aren't right for the time period, plus they are a bit off on the Ahem...Size thing\.

[fallen851]

What is the problem with putting them into .80?

And I demand to see pictures! :furious3:

[O'ETAIPOS]

It is not a problem with putting them in v.8 It is the problem with making new models. You will see new cards in v.8 or if cunctator want to show them - then earlier. Or you can check E. W. Marsden Greek and Roman Artillery - all are made stright from this book.

[fallen851]

It is not a problem with putting them in v.8 It is the problem with making new models. You will see new cards in v.8 or if cunctator want to show them - then earlier. Or you can check E. W. Marsden Greek and Roman Artillery - all are made stright from this book.

Well I meant what was the problem with making the models? Not enough people or time? Or game engine giving you crap?

[O'ETAIPOS]

3D graphic is not my area, but there were some technical problems when it was tried last time, so we decided to make new units with proper stats and cards hoping we will be able to add new 3D later.

[Shigawire]

Well I mean the modern version, for some reason catapulta and Ballistai were switched, probably a miss-translation, when this happend I am not sure, and you are right, Onagers aren't right for the time period, plus they are a bit off on the Ahem...Size thing\.

I doub it's a mistranslation, it's more probably due to human laziness. We do know approximately when this change happened. It happened in the 1st century CE. Specifically, the torsion machines depicted on Trajan's Column differed noticeably frrom those on earlier relief sculpture. Trajan's Column depicts the events of Trajan's Dacian Wars (genocide). The Column was sculpted during the period prior to its official dedication in 113 CE. Thus the new design must have been introduced before that date. We can therefore say "1st century CE" as the approximate period this linguistic change occured.

Erwin Schramm believed that Trajan's catapults differed from earlier machines in only ONE respect, namely that the torsion-springs were apparently enclosed in weatherproof metal cylinders. But it was left to the legendary Eric Marsden to elucidate the true nature of the redesign, which involved nothing less than the abandonment of the old euthytone design, last glimpsed on the Vedennius tombstone of 80-90s CE.

Henceforth, the arrow-firer would have separate springs, like the palintone stone-projector, and it duly became known, somewhat confusingly as a ballista.

To understand what we mean by "euthytone" and "palintone", and "frames..
Catapults were composed of a number of components. The most important of which was the "Washer frame." This is where you find the two cylinders of twisted guts/fiber which store the enormous potential energy of torsion. The two arms propelling the projectile then go into the washers, the projectile passes through the frame. In short, the washer-frame is where the stored torsion-energy is tamed and released.

The Palintonon frame design was more expensive to produce, but more powerful, therefore it was used for stone-projectors.

PALINTONON
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/PalintoneFrame.jpg
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/PalintoneFramePic.jpg
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/images/Palintonon.gif

EUTHYTONON
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/EuthytoneFrame.jpg
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/EuthytoneFramePic.jpg
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/GreekCatapultaPic.jpg

NOTE: The Palintonon frame wasn't ONLY used for stone-projectors, in one instance it was used for arrow-projectors. A more proper word for "stone-projectors" would be "Lithoboloi."

If these diagrams and pictures are not easy enough to understand, you can see another comparison. This one shows the potential energy of the two frame-designs parallell with the regular bow vs the recurved bow:

Comparison of Frame Types to Hand-held Bows
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/Frametypes.jpg


So it is today.. that "ballista" means arrow-projector.. though originally it referred to stone-projectors.
On the other hand, how "catapulta" traded places from "arrow-projector" to suddenly mean "stone-projector", I have no good answer for...
The word must've re-emerged in the dark or medieval age.. and misused.

The latin word "catapulta" is a derivative of the Greek "katapeltai."
And the etymology of "katapeltai" is well understood to mean "versus shield"
"Kata" being a preposition meaning "at,on,versus,per,with"
"Peltai" meaning shields of the enemy, which derives from the "pelted" skin-shields used by the Thracian "Peltastai."

Latin "Ballista" stems from the Greek ""Ballistike" - which refers to the throwing of something.. anything really. But the word was originally used consequently in relation to stones.

[Mithradates]

Does anyone remember way back before the first EB release when there was a picture of a realy funky looking greek spear throwing device thing. Ithink you had a competition to guess what it was. What ever happened to that?

[Shigawire]

Heh.. I don't think it was greek.

Now you're getting warmer.. :book:

[Conqueror]

IIRC they showed a picture of a celtic siege engine. Was it a model or just concept art? (not that it'll matter if custom models can't be used for siege engines :sad: )